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| 00:04.12 | kurzum | hmm im wondering if i can use an ADC open source media player for my app? |
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| 00:05.32 | kurzum | if its open source i should be able to modify it for my needs, but what about the challenge? i can't pretend i wrote the player, but its going to be a part of my app |
| 00:06.09 | zhobbs | kurzum: are you adding some kind of extension to it or something? |
| 00:06.58 | kurzum | well part of my app will have to play media files, so ill need a media player, either self written or "borrowed" |
| 00:08.35 | kurzum | so im wondering if there are clear rules for such a case |
| 00:09.16 | zhobbs | what music player is it? |
| 00:09.47 | zhobbs | if it's MusicDroid you have my permissions :) |
| 00:10.04 | kurzum | oh i dont have any specific player in mind, but i remember seeing a couple of media players on code.google some weeks ago |
| 00:11.35 | zhobbs | I think a lot of those players might wait until after the challenge deadline to release their stuff |
| 00:11.41 | zhobbs | I haven't seen any release anything yet |
| 00:11.58 | kurzum | cool thanks! :) i need a video player tough... |
| 00:12.16 | zhobbs | oh ok |
| 00:12.49 | kurzum | yeah i guess it makes sense they arent releasing their source just yet |
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| 00:24.07 | morrildl | Hooray! The ADC submission app now has an entry for M5. |
| 00:27.34 | zhobbs | hehe |
| 00:27.54 | zhobbs | morrildl: some major technical hurdles with adding that option? :) |
| 00:34.07 | jasta | kurzum: keep in mind that the challenge specifically states that your application must not be distributed illegaly. meaning, if you have tainted yourself with the GPL, then you must comply with the GPL. |
| 00:34.21 | jasta | And if you do not, your application would be considered illegaly distributed, and would be ineligible to win the contest. |
| 00:35.05 | jasta | so be very aware of the licensing terms of any software you use. |
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| 00:57.05 | trigatch4 | Holy Smokes... |
| 00:57.29 | trigatch4 | Did anybody here go to Code Day? |
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| 01:01.26 | jasta | home early today :) |
| 01:02.11 | trigatch4 | Hey Jasta |
| 01:02.16 | trigatch4 | Whats up? |
| 01:02.53 | jasta | nothing? |
| 01:03.04 | trigatch4 | I'm in Baltimore... not a developer but definitely Android obsessive: I run http://www.phandroid.com and hoping to interview some developers who attend the Code Day. Anyone interested? |
| 01:03.12 | trigatch4 | Wish I could have gone... guh |
| 01:03.14 | trigatch4 | ugh |
| 01:05.52 | jasta | i did not go, sorry. |
| 01:06.11 | jasta | have you checked the forums for folks impressions? |
| 01:09.10 | trigatch4 | what forums? |
| 01:09.29 | jasta | the google groups topics. |
| 01:10.15 | trigatch4 | I've got it in my netvibes but didn't see anything specifically Code Day related |
| 01:10.25 | jasta | are you sure, because i did. |
| 01:10.40 | trigatch4 | Hmmm... okay I'll take a closer look. Thanks for the idea |
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| 01:27.42 | skicson | trigatch, was that the boston code day? i'm asking because i'm also in the baltimore area |
| 01:28.23 | dragor43 | some guy posted about the boston code day on android groups and wasn't too happy about it |
| 01:35.38 | skicson | meh. i got that guy beat. i did 3000 miles to his pathetic 1200 :-P (for the campfire) |
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| 01:54.54 | jasta | skicson: what did you really expect from that thing? |
| 01:55.29 | jasta | i mean, sure i'd like to go to one if it's nearby, but it's not a huge deal :) |
| 01:55.38 | jasta | it's not like they're gonna reveal anything they haven't already told the web. |
| 01:56.19 | zhobbs | it'd be cool to just checkout the Googleplex |
| 01:56.32 | jasta | yeah, but the googleplex only is in mountain view |
| 01:56.59 | zhobbs | yeah, campfire was in mtn view |
| 01:57.06 | jasta | oh |
| 01:57.12 | jasta | still, not that cool |
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| 02:25.41 | jasta | sweet, got my Android build environment in Maven now. this has simplified everything :) |
| 02:25.50 | jasta | i had 4 separate projects before. |
| 02:26.18 | jasta | well i still do, but now they're not hardcoding paths ;) |
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| 02:34.52 | Marv|LG | never understood the point of maven when there is ant |
| 02:34.59 | Marv|LG | then again I never really looked at maven |
| 02:35.03 | romainguy | Marv|LG: Maven does much more than Ant |
| 02:35.15 | romainguy | Especially when it comes to managing your dependencies |
| 02:36.45 | jasta | Ant fails very critically at trying to understand its environment and how the building project fits into it. |
| 02:37.16 | jasta | Ant is analogous to make in that sense; make is totally dumb and unaware of the host. |
| 02:38.02 | jasta | Which is why almost no one writes straight make files and expects their project to build anywhere but their own host computer |
| 02:39.12 | jasta | Maven makes an effort to fix that, and from what I have learned today does so with mixed success. Ultimately, it's still better than Ant :) |
| 02:40.01 | Marv|LG | sounds like a linux vs windows arguement to me ;) |
| 02:40.10 | jasta | The dependency management seems like it was narrowly implemented, adhering to the specific policies found in Apache projects and not necessarily everywhere else. |
| 02:40.22 | jasta | Marv|LG: If it does, then you have misunderstood me completely. |
| 02:40.56 | Marv|LG | the basis of that argument is that each has it own set of plus/minuses |
| 02:41.41 | jasta | Ant encourages developers to design monolithic applications, not stopping to separate into smaller, re-usable (as in, separately distributed) components. |
| 02:42.19 | jasta | If you want to do so, for example, you have to considerably increase the complexity of your ant environment, certainly falling back to creating something very custom, very unconventional, and very crappy :) |
| 02:42.29 | jasta | just like people did with Make :) |
| 02:43.49 | romainguy | jasta: it's not that hard to do with ant |
| 02:44.35 | jasta | romainguy: Oh? How might you do it then without requiring that the packages are either delivered or built together? |
| 02:46.51 | jasta | Try to imagine that the packages are truly separate, but both written by the same authors. The user may have one without the other already. How would you know that? The only way to deal with that case is to ignore it, which will cause distribution managers to shoot you in the face. |
| 02:48.11 | jasta | Java developers just plain don't think like this, and that's because they're happy to just "make it build", and rarely consider more advanced systems of distribution. Probably because Windows doesn't even have one :) |
| 02:48.41 | Marv|LG | show server |
| 02:48.45 | Marv|LG | oops sorry |
| 02:49.08 | romainguy | jasta: Java WebStart works that way actually |
| 02:49.21 | romainguy | jasta: and you are only thinking with a Linux mind right now :) |
| 02:49.50 | jasta | It's not my fault that Debian owns you all :) |
| 02:50.06 | romainguy | I personally hate Linux packages based distributions |
| 02:50.15 | romainguy | I much rather prefer the monolithic .app of Mac OS X for instance |
| 02:50.19 | jasta | all Linux distributions are package-based. |
| 02:50.26 | romainguy | I know |
| 02:50.28 | jasta | even Slackware and Gentoo |
| 02:50.29 | romainguy | and I hate them all |
| 02:50.54 | jasta | I would imagine that you do. The monolithic approach is great for users. |
| 02:51.00 | jasta | But it's terrible for everyone else. |
| 02:51.07 | jasta | That was my earlier point. |
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| 02:51.09 | romainguy | Which is pretty much nobody :) |
| 02:51.15 | jasta | Gah! |
| 02:51.29 | jasta | There is harmony that exists, and it is called APT. Respect it :) |
| 02:51.51 | romainguy | Yeah yeah I know |
| 02:52.12 | romainguy | if only I got a penny every time a Debian user mentioned apt... :) |
| 02:52.48 | jasta | The reality is that it stands out as a such a great concept because it is hard to imagine why it is so rare. |
| 02:53.21 | jasta | It is truly difficult to understand why Windows, for example, has no package management. Every application just throws together it's own piece of crap updater and the user is continually lost in the mess. |
| 02:53.41 | jasta | Then, it pretends like it has such a thing with the 'Add/Remove programs' list which just heightens the user's confusion. |
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| 02:55.33 | jasta | hmm, my raid node is so loud i can hear it in my bedroom now. |
| 02:59.49 | jasta | romainguy: You gotta think like Reagan here :) |
| 03:00.17 | jasta | trickle-down economics. if developers are happy, more and better software will get written and users will be happy :) |
| 03:00.29 | jasta | (disclaimer: no, i don't seriously believe that) |
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| 03:23.37 | jasta | romainguy: you ever been to ireland? |
| 03:24.00 | jasta | i'm going in september, but i'm not sure what my exact itinerary is yet |
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| 03:59.39 | romainguy | jasta: your animation bug has been fixed since M5 alrady |
| 03:59.41 | romainguy | already |
| 04:00.49 | jasta | excellent, but didn't you already tell me that? :) |
| 04:01.15 | romainguy | no I told you I was pretty certain it was fixede |
| 04:01.19 | romainguy | but I had to check |
| 04:01.20 | jasta | hehe |
| 04:01.22 | jasta | oh |
| 04:01.24 | romainguy | I did check and it is fixed :) |
| 04:01.34 | jasta | thanks for following up then :) |
| 04:01.55 | romainguy | you're welcome |
| 04:03.55 | jasta | my stupid custom cursor has all sorts of data change bugs i think hehe |
| 04:05.16 | jasta | i assume all i do is just call registerDataSetObserver() on the wrapper cursor and pass along onChanged and onInvalidated to super.notifyDataSetChanged and notifyDataSetInvalided, right? |
| 04:05.26 | jasta | wrapped* |
| 04:05.50 | romainguy | should work yes |
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| 04:32.01 | jasta | romainguy_: hmm, another bug :\ |
| 04:34.14 | jasta | just reproduced it in the apidemos too |
| 04:34.41 | jasta | scrolling very quickly through listviews that have rows of differing sizes seems to let you "offset" the listview from its original layout. |
| 04:35.02 | jasta | such that it appears to have a top padding relative to its parent until you click on it and it is then reset |
| 04:35.16 | jasta | known? |
| 04:35.39 | jasta | scrolling with the mousewheel makes it easy to show. |
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| 05:14.21 | romainguy_ | jasta: yeah we fixed that already |
| 05:28.10 | jasta | excellent, got my adapter to stop throwing exceptions :) |
| 05:28.38 | jasta | and i implemented one of the most lacking features in nearly every digital music player in the world |
| 05:29.25 | jasta | a mundane unique name comparator. |
| 05:29.42 | jasta | now, "The Arcade Fire", and "Arcade Fire" are the same thing :) |
| 05:29.51 | jasta | "Minus the Bear" and "Minus The Bear". Oh what a novelty! |
| 05:30.52 | jasta | i'd also like to implement a locale-independent comparison as well, but not sure how just yet. |
| 05:31.01 | jasta | that's a tricky area to work in |
| 05:45.57 | romainguy_ | iTunes does it well ^^ |
| 05:46.02 | romainguy_ | (most of the time) |
| 05:46.12 | duey | yep |
| 05:49.02 | jasta | gah, no it doesn't |
| 05:49.13 | jasta | i hate my girlfriend's ipod because there's shit like that everywhere |
| 05:49.19 | jasta | i also hate that she doesn't organize it better |
| 05:49.23 | jasta | but thats probably itunes' fault too |
| 05:50.47 | duey | yes it does jasta |
| 05:51.35 | jasta | really? i'm gonna look more closely next time i have that thing |
| 05:51.51 | duey | John butler trio |
| 05:51.56 | duey | The John Butler Trio |
| 05:52.01 | duey | is the ordering |
| 05:52.07 | duey | er |
| 05:52.10 | jasta | the ordering? |
| 05:52.11 | duey | John Butler |
| 05:52.15 | duey | The John Butler Trio |
| 05:52.20 | duey | John Butler Trio |
| 05:52.22 | duey | as an example |
| 05:52.32 | duey | order by artist and thats what you get |
| 05:52.40 | jasta | i'm not talking about ordering |
| 05:52.59 | duey | ? |
| 05:53.07 | duey | grouping by artist? |
| 05:53.15 | jasta | i'm actually talking about the comperator that decides if "The John Butler Trio" and "John Butler Trio" are the same. |
| 05:53.25 | duey | ah |
| 05:53.26 | duey | soundex |
| 05:53.32 | jasta | no, not soundex, just obvious. |
| 05:53.33 | duey | metaphones |
| 05:54.09 | jasta | John Butler and John Butler Trio of course will be different, but come on. "The" is optional. |
| 05:54.19 | duey | right so you remove the |
| 05:54.30 | duey | soundex would be cool |
| 05:54.35 | jasta | and compare using and and & as similar. |
| 05:54.37 | duey | but something better than soundex |
| 05:54.38 | jasta | soundex would be too unreliable. |
| 05:54.45 | jasta | plenty of things match soundex when they aren't the same. |
| 05:54.55 | duey | metaphone is pretty decent |
| 05:55.05 | jasta | also, it's very important to me that locale-sensitive compares are supported, although they are not yet. |
| 05:55.18 | duey | right |
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| 05:55.33 | jasta | such as for example "Bjork" versus the umlauted version. |
| 05:55.49 | jasta | they specify the same artist, and should match in that sense. |
| 05:56.08 | jasta | meta data is so sloppily maintained by most users that the software they use needs to be pragmatic. |
| 05:56.37 | jasta | most software i have used doesn't even do the simple case-insensitive comparison for crying out loud |
| 05:57.32 | jasta | i am struggling with the decision to make artist, album, and song title a unique index as well. many people (thanks to piece of crap itunes) have multiple copies of the same albums in different formats. |
| 05:57.54 | jasta | so showing them multiple versions helps no one, however on the other hand some artists legitimately duplicate song titles ("unknown" in particular) |
| 05:58.12 | jasta | so it would be necessary to show that. but then it gets overly mucky to try to look at the tracknumber meta data bla bla |
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| 06:07.06 | romainguy_ | jasta: gah, no it doesn't << my iTunes definitely doesn't take into account stuff like The for sorting |
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| 06:07.21 | romainguy_ | If I want to jump to The Killers in my list I just hit the K |
| 06:07.34 | jasta | i'm not referring to sorting. |
| 06:07.47 | jasta | does it think killers = Killers? |
| 06:08.05 | romainguy_ | let me check that |
| 06:08.12 | romainguy_ | (since my tags are all proper and clean... :) |
| 06:08.23 | jasta | or Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers = Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers? |
| 06:08.41 | jasta | Or "The Killers - " = "The Killers"? :) |
| 06:08.42 | romainguy_ | yeah it does show as the same artist |
| 06:08.52 | romainguy_ | I don't know how far they went but it works for The |
| 06:09.21 | jasta | well The is the obvious one that everyone is going to support because it would look absurd to sort it with the T's. |
| 06:09.38 | jasta | but the actual fuzzy matching seems to rarely get supported well or at all. |
| 06:09.47 | jasta | locale-independent matches especially |
| 06:10.02 | jasta | normally, you want locale-sensitive comparisons, but this is one of the rare cases that you very certainly do not. |
| 06:10.42 | romainguy_ | that plus the fact that two names that look alike could legitimately be really different :) |
| 06:11.27 | jasta | yes, and so do i of course |
| 06:11.38 | jasta | but really, most people couldn't care less and assume that their software should handle it for them |
| 06:12.32 | romainguy_ | "I feel that i am a very good Java programmer but learning the language |
| 06:12.32 | romainguy_ | of Android is foreign." |
| 06:12.39 | romainguy_ | interesting post on the newsgroup ^^ |
| 06:13.11 | jasta | They probably didn't literally mean langauge. That phrasing tells me they are not native English speakers. |
| 06:13.26 | romainguy_ | Oh you think? :) |
| 06:13.45 | jasta | Yes ;) |
| 06:14.14 | jasta | Still, a lot of people seem to complain that Android is somehow difficult to learn, which seems odd to me. Especially those that assert they are "very good java programmers" |
| 06:14.34 | romainguy_ | Well he goes on saying that he knows that in Java to paint on screen you have to override the paint() method |
| 06:14.47 | romainguy_ | which is actually untrue if you want to do it the right way |
| 06:15.10 | jasta | I would have to imagine that any seasoned programmer could cut through Android like butter. In any language. |
| 06:15.40 | romainguy_ | I'm actually glad to see we attract all sorts of developers |
| 06:15.54 | jasta | You mean not just Java fanboys? |
| 06:15.58 | muthu | attracting the average developer is vital |
| 06:16.01 | romainguy_ | I meant experience wise |
| 06:16.24 | jasta | romainguy_: Ahh, I would have to agree. I am surprised by the range. |
| 06:16.58 | muthu | ror cannot become mainstream |
| 06:17.01 | jasta | There are a lot of people on the forums that would be better suited for less...restrictive programming :) |
| 06:17.28 | romainguy_ | you have to learn somehow |
| 06:17.36 | muthu | i would like android to be like java.. not ror |
| 06:17.52 | jasta | what is ror? i thought that was a typo at first :) |
| 06:18.00 | muthu | ruby on rails |
| 06:18.03 | romainguy_ | jasta: I believe he must be talking about Ruby on Rails |
| 06:18.09 | romainguy_ | although I have no idea how it relates to Android :) |
| 06:18.15 | jasta | me neither |
| 06:18.26 | muthu | in terms of adaptability |
| 06:18.53 | muthu | at the end of the day you want all kinds of developers flocking android |
| 06:18.59 | jasta | You're stretching muth :) |
| 06:19.01 | jasta | muthu* |
| 06:19.59 | jasta | muthu: Well, you will find that many developers will be unable to work with the constraints Android places on them. Mobile development will be a stretch for the common Java developer. |
| 06:20.10 | muthu | need not be |
| 06:20.16 | jasta | Yes, it need be. :) |
| 06:20.31 | muthu | agreed, current mobile development is difficult |
| 06:21.27 | jasta | Mobile development on Android is no different. You have to be mindful of efficiency at all times. Even benchmarking how well your application performs isn't good enough because it might still be draining the battery very fast. |
| 06:21.55 | muthu | correct.. and i'm no expert |
| 06:22.53 | muthu | i'm just hoping android makes it easy for the end developers |
| 06:23.07 | jasta | muthu: It won't. |
| 06:23.16 | duey | nothing is easy |
| 06:23.25 | duey | problem with making something to easy is you get a lot of crap |
| 06:23.36 | jasta | muthu: Android cannot help you rethink your broken assumptions. You'll have to do that all on your own :) |
| 06:23.37 | muthu | duey: how? |
| 06:23.42 | duey | well for example |
| 06:23.53 | duey | if you were to create an rss reader as an pi |
| 06:23.55 | duey | api* |
| 06:24.02 | duey | you would get 100 rss readers |
| 06:24.03 | jasta | For example, Microsoft Access applications ;) |
| 06:24.07 | duey | rather than a couple of good ones |
| 06:24.08 | duey | exactly |
| 06:24.49 | muthu | easy and innovative - too much to ask? |
| 06:25.27 | muthu | i'm sure that's android goal |
| 06:25.30 | duey | not much innovation in doing all the work and letting users glue it togeather |
| 06:25.32 | jasta | muthu: You're just missing the point. |
| 06:25.45 | duey | (in terms of getting an innovative development community) |
| 06:26.02 | duey | you don't want it to become the VB for mobile platforms |
| 06:26.10 | muthu | why not? |
| 06:26.16 | duey | because VB is crap |
| 06:26.21 | muthu | :) |
| 06:26.27 | romainguy_ | duey: and had and has lots of success :) |
| 06:26.33 | duey | yes thats true |
| 06:26.47 | jasta | romainguy_: Oh quiet, you know damn well you don't want Android to be like VB :P |
| 06:26.51 | marvinalone | if one of the methods in my IBinder implementation throws, and i don't catch it, does the service die or does the activity die? |
| 06:27.01 | romainguy_ | jasta: if it could be as successful, why not? |
| 06:27.06 | marvinalone | in other words, is the exception translated over ipc? |
| 06:27.07 | romainguy_ | as long as they are great applications... |
| 06:27.09 | duey | it depends on what you define success |
| 06:27.09 | jasta | muthu: Albert Einstein has a great quote that applies to precisely why Android cannot be made truly "easy". |
| 06:27.21 | jasta | "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." |
| 06:27.25 | duey | if you define it as hugely popular for mainly crap applications sure |
| 06:27.54 | muthu | jasta: agreed with einstein |
| 06:27.58 | jasta | Android has limits placed on it by the devices which will run it. No one can do anything to work around that. Code's gotta be written small and light, network protocol efficient, etc. |
| 06:28.17 | jasta | The common developer just doesn't have the attitude that those things are important. |
| 06:28.42 | muthu | there are 3 levels .. beginners, intermediate and advanced |
| 06:29.06 | jasta | Don't be so narrow. There are no levels ;) |
| 06:29.19 | duey | basically i don't think you want everyone releasing there hello world apps |
| 06:29.19 | muthu | jasta: case closed ;) |
| 06:29.47 | muthu | duey: what's the problem? why not? |
| 06:30.01 | duey | because thats what VB is like |
| 06:30.24 | muthu | and that's why they are successful |
| 06:30.38 | duey | well i personally don't call VB successful |
| 06:30.40 | duey | popular yes |
| 06:31.18 | romainguy_ | duey: and tremendously useful and used within companies |
| 06:31.29 | romainguy_ | where they do stuff a tad more complicated than hello world |
| 06:31.53 | duey | are you talking vb or vb.net |
| 06:31.57 | jasta | my organization uses a very elaborate sales instrument with the desktop client coded in VB. |
| 06:31.58 | romainguy_ | either |
| 06:32.31 | jasta | it also is a terrible piece of shit. |
| 06:32.40 | jasta | it's really, really slow :) |
| 06:32.54 | duey | if companies are under such missmangagement to choose such a product then well |
| 06:32.57 | duey | they can keep it |
| 06:34.00 | jasta | romainguy_: Let's face it, VB is popular because you can higher developers for cheap. The products typically reflect that. |
| 06:34.08 | romainguy_ | I never said the contrary |
| 06:34.10 | duey | exactly |
| 06:34.12 | romainguy_ | it's also easy to pick up |
| 06:34.15 | romainguy_ | easy to learn |
| 06:34.20 | romainguy_ | and well, easy to get the job done with it |
| 06:34.23 | jasta | Yeah, and impossible to get right. |
| 06:35.22 | duey | VB is probably an ok "first language" |
| 06:35.26 | jasta | BTW, you work for a very successful company that has much the opposite strategy. Software done right is very commonly easier to write and cheaper in the long run since it does not stagnate as easily. |
| 06:35.34 | jasta | duey: No, it's poison :) |
| 06:35.47 | duey | jasta, yeah but lots of schools use it |
| 06:35.49 | duey | at least here |
| 06:35.58 | jasta | That doesn't make it an acceptable choice. |
| 06:36.07 | jasta | That just makes it a convenient one ;) |
| 06:36.08 | duey | jasta, better than no choice |
| 06:36.11 | duey | yes correct |
| 06:36.52 | jasta | at any rate, i want to get back to android development ;P |
| 06:37.03 | duey | yeah i better start.. |
| 06:37.06 | duey | lol |
| 06:37.12 | romainguy_ | can't wait to see what you guys can come up with |
| 06:37.14 | jasta | i am, oddly enough, optimizing my terribly inefficient code. |
| 06:37.21 | jasta | romainguy_: Can? Psssh :) |
| 06:37.33 | duey | just need to figure out how to clean up these images.. |
| 06:37.39 | muthu | what's duey and jasta doing? |
| 06:37.42 | duey | secret |
| 06:37.48 | romainguy_ | jasta: well so much boasting made me curious :) |
| 06:37.48 | muthu | come on! |
| 06:37.58 | muthu | me too :) |
| 06:37.58 | jasta | I am working on a project to put lasers on various types of animals. |
| 06:38.03 | duey | waht the heck |
| 06:38.08 | duey | im doing ocr on photos |
| 06:38.08 | jasta | By way of an Android phone taped to their head. |
| 06:38.27 | duey | and then a) able to take a pic of a business card and insert into address book |
| 06:38.35 | duey | b) take a pic of a sign and translate it into another language |
| 06:38.37 | muthu | jasta: music album sorter :-D |
| 06:39.08 | muthu | duey: nice |
| 06:39.45 | duey | yeah its my honours project |
| 06:39.45 | jasta | muthu: I'm writing a media synchronization system that allows very efficient remote access to music, images, video, documents, etc stored on a home PC or some other repository. |
| 06:40.16 | jasta | With a reference implementation of a progressive music player integrating last.fm services. |
| 06:40.45 | jasta | By synchronization, I mean over-the-air. It is uncertain if I will even support tethered synchronization. |
| 06:40.50 | muthu | how would i use it? |
| 06:41.02 | jasta | muthu: Install a server on your computer, and then connect your phone to it. |
| 06:41.28 | jasta | The phone will synchronize meta data (names of songs, albums, etc) and download the content associated on demand for streaming (and caching to your storage card). |
| 06:42.10 | muthu | from my own server? |
| 06:42.11 | jasta | For optimal usage, the user should have a large (1GB or more) storage card and frequent EDGE or 3G data service. |
| 06:42.14 | jasta | muthu: Yes. |
| 06:42.39 | muthu | ok.. so you are testing it with last.fm? |
| 06:42.40 | duey | im thinking of off loading the ocr onto a webservice rather than doing it embedded |
| 06:42.53 | duey | at least for initial versions |
| 06:42.58 | jasta | romainguy_: btw, remarking on your previous comment, I am just trying desperately to hold on to my youthful idealism before I slip into my 30's :) |
| 06:43.09 | duey | lol |
| 06:43.28 | muthu | jasta: get it done before you hit the dreaded 3O's |
| 06:43.34 | jasta | muthu: Not really, last.fm is just a provider of extra value for the software. It's not an essential feature. |
| 06:44.15 | jasta | last.fm is used for artist pictures, bio information, etc and possibly down the road a community aspect of the music player. |
| 06:44.30 | muthu | hmm.. interesting |
| 06:44.33 | jasta | And also playlist suggestions and "auto" mode. |
| 06:44.54 | jasta | So the user could say choose an artist or album and just say "Whatever, pick music for me." Not unlike Amarok's dynamic playlist feature. |
| 06:45.03 | muthu | ok.. so you write the server software too? |
| 06:45.08 | jasta | Yes, already have. |
| 06:45.14 | muthu | great |
| 06:45.34 | marvinalone | romain: does android send exceptions over ipc? |
| 06:45.40 | jasta | The server is written in C, and is written in such a way that it will be extended to other platforms using a more appropriate shell. |
| 06:45.50 | jasta | So like a systray type implementation for Windows, a daemon for Linux, ... |
| 06:46.01 | jasta | marvinalone: No, I believe that is currently unsupported. |
| 06:46.49 | marvinalone | jasta: so i need to write my services such that weird calls can't kill them by throwing. |
| 06:47.26 | romainguy_ | marvinalone: I have no idea but it doubt it |
| 06:47.33 | romainguy_ | marvinalone: but again, don't take my word for it |
| 06:48.02 | jasta | i just realized setting a widget disabled causes it to be slightly translucent ;) |
| 06:48.27 | jasta | marvinalone: No, you don't, but for now you should be aware that they are not passed through. |
| 06:48.35 | romainguy_ | jasta: yep |
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| 06:54.32 | muthu | romain: what does cedric beust do? |
| 06:54.48 | romainguy | muthu: he works on Android |
| 06:54.49 | muthu | always wondered what cedric role is in android |
| 06:54.58 | muthu | romain: exactly what? |
| 06:55.02 | romainguy | we actually seat in the same office |
| 06:55.06 | romainguy | I cannot tell you :) |
| 06:55.11 | muthu | :( |
| 06:55.19 | muthu | the secrecy of google |
| 06:55.31 | romainguy | one get used to it |
| 06:55.42 | muthu | i heard |
| 06:55.51 | romainguy | it was quite a shock transitioning from Sun to Google |
| 06:56.05 | romainguy | from blogging/writing books & articles/speaking at conferes/etc. to absolute silence :) |
| 06:56.20 | muthu | you like it of course :) |
| 06:56.59 | romainguy_ | working at Google? Yes, I love it |
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| 06:57.08 | romainguy_ | but I also miss being involved with the community |
| 06:57.16 | romainguy_ | it's just not my job anymore |
| 06:57.35 | muthu | yeah.. need to be involved in the community |
| 06:57.38 | muthu | that's the real fun |
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| 07:22.09 | jasta | i wonder what excactly emulator -qemu -smp 2 does ;) |
| 07:39.51 | zhobbs | romainguy_: you're pretty involved with the community here |
| 07:40.10 | romainguy__ | zhobbs: thanks :) |
| 07:40.21 | romainguy__ | it's just a different kind of involvement |
| 07:41.53 | zhobbs | well, whatever it is you've helped us out a lot :) |
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| 07:42.40 | zhobbs | you probably want Dan's job right? |
| 07:42.57 | romainguy__ | No :) |
| 07:43.07 | romainguy__ | I'm very happy with what I'm doing |
| 07:43.15 | romainguy__ | I just miss doing that kind of stuff, that's all |
| 08:13.06 | jasta | yes, this kind of involvement is lame and dealing with us harping on him for bugs and things he usually has nothing to do with :) |
| 08:13.28 | jasta | and also our perpetual need to misunderstand his grand uniform design :) |
| 08:14.01 | romainguy__ | or more precisely you perpetual need to disagree with the design :) |
| 08:14.09 | zhobbs | haha |
| 08:14.36 | jasta | i like Android's UI design, personally :) |
| 08:15.45 | jasta | i am a big fan of the APIs in general, actually. especially the IPC stuff, that is just spot on. |
| 08:16.00 | romainguy__ | there are a few things in the UI toolkit I would have done differently |
| 08:16.06 | romainguy__ | but most of it was in place when I joined |
| 08:16.22 | romainguy__ | but yeah, I'm overall really pleased with the APIs |
| 08:16.24 | jasta | me too, specifically the concept of gravity and weight could be more elegantly replaced by packing parameters. |
| 08:16.30 | romainguy__ | especially considering it's for a cell phone |
| 08:17.05 | romainguy__ | well, I would also like to have the notions of preferred/minimum sizes for the views |
| 08:17.16 | romainguy__ | that would make some layouts easier to use/understand I think |
| 08:17.31 | jasta | widgets do have a preferred size, but it doesn't act as a minimum i suppose. |
| 08:17.42 | romainguy__ | they don't really have a preferred size actually |
| 08:18.17 | jasta | well, not so called, but they are offered the chance to set a concrete value when drawing using WRAP_CONTENT. |
| 08:18.51 | romainguy__ | yes, most of the time :) |
| 08:18.57 | jasta | most of the time? |
| 08:19.18 | romainguy__ | let's say you have a horizontal LinearLayout A |
| 08:19.22 | romainguy__ | with a height of wrap_content |
| 08:19.30 | romainguy__ | it contains a View B of height 64 pixels |
| 08:19.38 | romainguy__ | and a LinearLayout C of height fill_parent |
| 08:19.53 | romainguy__ | if you run this, A, B and C all have a final height on screen of 64 pixels |
| 08:19.55 | romainguy__ | which make sense |
| 08:20.24 | romainguy__ | but if inside C you put two Views of height=0/weight=1, thinking they will share equally the 64 pixels, you obtain something very different |
| 08:20.33 | romainguy__ | suddenly A and B take up the whole screen |
| 08:20.37 | jasta | oh yes, i see what you're saying. |
| 08:20.46 | romainguy__ | while it's actually the correct behavior it's not intuitive |
| 08:21.22 | jasta | a minimum size actually lends itself to a more elegant packing solution anyway. |
| 08:21.36 | romainguy__ | it also makes writing layout a tad easier |
| 08:21.37 | jasta | since "fill" could be redefined not to fill its parent, but rather to fill available. |
| 08:22.04 | romainguy__ | which is what weight is supposed to do |
| 08:22.18 | jasta | i know, but i'm saying you could blend weight, gravity, and fill/wrap all into one much more elegant concept of packing. |
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| 08:22.35 | jasta | a necessary precursor would be what you're referring to as well. |
| 08:22.42 | romainguy__ | yep |
| 08:22.49 | jasta | this would be much more like how GTK does things. |
| 08:22.50 | cutmasta | mornin |
| 08:23.00 | romainguy__ | there's one layout I really really like in Java: http://www.miglayout.com/ |
| 08:23.16 | romainguy__ | it makes it really easy to describe very complex layouts very cleanly |
| 08:23.49 | romainguy__ | (it was inspired by another great layout called FormLayout) |
| 08:24.31 | jasta | give me a second to look |
| 08:25.07 | romainguy__ | Pretty cool, I was doing some profiling in ListView and to scroll a ListView of 1,000 items, we allocate only 6 TextView |
| 08:25.36 | jasta | yeah, i'm happy to see that android took UI scalability seriosuly. |
| 08:26.05 | jasta | i just went up to my full scale test with my slightly optimized alphabet separator adapter and found very nice performance with i think 850 list items |
| 08:26.07 | romainguy__ | it's a daily source of pain and hard work :) |
| 08:26.21 | romainguy__ | and the next SDK will make it even better |
| 08:26.24 | jasta | yes, but it's very critical. |
| 08:26.30 | romainguy__ | right now we recycle all the views in the same heap |
| 08:26.38 | romainguy__ | but we will use different heaps based on the view type |
| 08:26.53 | zhobbs | yeah, that allowed me to write an adapter that scrolled through and filter 3000 + items pretty nicely |
| 08:26.56 | jasta | in a listview you mean? |
| 08:27.00 | romainguy__ | yes |
| 08:27.15 | jasta | that is what you were referring to the other night about having to create new views when the type doesn't match? |
| 08:27.20 | romainguy__ | yep |
| 08:27.38 | zhobbs | just made my cursor only select 50 or so at a time |
| 08:27.41 | jasta | that would be welcome indeed. |
| 08:27.45 | romainguy__ | because you will have more "normal" views than separators, the change to get a recycled separator when you need one are slim |
| 08:27.49 | romainguy__ | it's just an oversight |
| 08:30.01 | jasta | 522 rows, not 800. damn, i was more impressed with my adapter's performance when i thought it was larger ;P |
| 08:31.42 | romainguy__ | doh! |
| 08:31.46 | romainguy__ | @!# |
| 08:31.55 | jasta | what? |
| 08:32.11 | romainguy__ | I thought my traces were really small |
| 08:32.40 | romainguy__ | and I just remembered that calling BufferedOutputStream.write(int) actually writes only the first low byte |
| 08:33.01 | romainguy__ | I was just missing 3/4 of my data :) |
| 08:33.06 | jasta | hehe |
| 08:34.27 | romainguy__ | I have this pretty cool "profiler" I wrote |
| 08:34.39 | romainguy__ | it shows you the views tree |
| 08:35.03 | romainguy__ | and replays the measure/layout/draw/invalidate/requestlayout/caching calls |
| 08:35.16 | romainguy__ | by flashing the tree nodes in a different color |
| 08:35.20 | jasta | nice |
| 08:35.26 | jasta | really nice |
| 08:35.28 | romainguy__ | very very handy to optimize this critical code path |
| 08:37.07 | romainguy__ | right now I'm writing another one to show how Views are shuffled in and out of ListView |
| 08:37.15 | romainguy__ | makes debugging a lot easier |
| 08:37.29 | jasta | ui programming is black magic |
| 08:37.42 | romainguy_ | and a pain to debug through a debugger |
| 08:37.47 | jasta | yeah, definitely |
| 08:38.51 | jasta | i had an idea a long time ago for a debugger that ran virtualized like valgrind which would be capable of writing a vectored core file so that you could step backwards through the debugger :) |
| 08:39.22 | romainguy_ | ah here you go |
| 08:39.27 | romainguy_ | I found a screenshot: http://jext.free.fr/tfandroid.png |
| 08:39.46 | romainguy_ | it's an old version |
| 08:40.07 | jasta | seems designed for your 30" screen :P |
| 08:40.23 | romainguy__ | well, this was a worst case scenario |
| 08:40.40 | jasta | this must be for the dialer :) |
| 08:40.45 | romainguy__ | lol |
| 08:40.49 | romainguy__ | that's the Home screen |
| 08:41.02 | romainguy__ | except with something like 42 apps in the grid |
| 08:41.03 | jasta | hehe really? i figured it was the dialer for sure because of all those linearlayouts in a gridview :) |
| 08:41.14 | jasta | didnt count them tho |
| 08:43.40 | romainguy__ | anyway |
| 08:43.42 | romainguy__ | time to go to bed |
| 08:43.44 | romainguy__ | good night |
| 08:43.45 | jasta | me too :) |
| 08:44.11 | jasta | i am so close to having a fully working sample. can't wait to post something online ;) |
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| 08:52.19 | Lede | romainguy: good morning |
| 08:52.27 | Lede | you sleeped for 7 minutes! |
| 08:52.29 | Lede | :P |
| 08:54.30 | romainguy | hehe :) |
| 09:11.11 | jasta | bed time |
| 09:11.14 | jasta | night folks |
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| 09:47.48 | acsia | morning |
| 09:52.24 | acsia | oh no I am out of sync with the rest of us! |
| 09:52.31 | acsia | too much coffee in the morning... |
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| 10:18.30 | trigatch4 | think so acsia? |
| 10:18.55 | trigatch4 | it's 5:12am here, i haven't gone to bed yet and i just had a large coffee i scooped up from the gas station... hehe |
| 10:18.59 | trigatch4 | the life of a web developer.. ugh |
| 10:19.13 | Kuryaki_ | :P |
| 10:19.22 | acsia | yes lovely isn't it? |
| 10:19.44 | acsia | personnally I can only work early in the morning or late at night |
| 10:19.52 | acsia | in between I am non productive |
| 10:20.13 | acsia | probably the reason I have not progressed with my career for a couple of years |
| 10:23.06 | acsia | so what are you working on? |
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| 10:58.45 | plusminus | Good morning :) |
| 11:01.24 | plusminus | I'm currently using drawPath to draw some lines over a map. |
| 11:01.46 | plusminus | Anyone knows whether drawPath is optimized, that it doesn't actually draw Off-Screen path-segments ? |
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| 15:11.39 | plusminus | I would have spent 1000$ for every message in the last 4 hours... ;) |
| 15:12.03 | zhobbs | quiet in here |
| 15:12.31 | plusminus | pretty |
| 15:12.39 | plusminus | and its not even friday... |
| 15:13.03 | acsia | it is alive! ALIVE! |
| 15:13.13 | plusminus | ^^ |
| 15:15.01 | acsia | i ve been working on setting up http://androforge.net for the last couple of days... been struggling a bit but seems to be mostly working |
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| 15:15.32 | acsia | the mailing list still is a bit bad but it should work fine |
| 15:15.45 | acsia | I was thinking about announcing it soon on the mailing list |
| 15:15.46 | plusminus | you are german? |
| 15:15.55 | acsia | anybody interested in administrating it? |
| 15:16.03 | acsia | nope |
| 15:16.10 | kurzum | mailing list for what? |
| 15:16.10 | zhobbs | acsia: that's a big project |
| 15:16.28 | acsia | well I have a lot of time |
| 15:16.54 | plusminus | it says "Meine Sachen" ;) |
| 15:17.04 | plusminus | or is that text depending on the visitor location ? |
| 15:17.10 | acsia | a yes it is localisation |
| 15:17.11 | kurzum | gimme the link too :D |
| 15:17.23 | acsia | http://androforge.net |
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| 15:17.37 | acsia | I am using gforge with a OSS license |
| 15:17.46 | acsia | but there is not much documentation |
| 15:18.36 | zhobbs | nice, link to hello android :) |
| 15:18.36 | acsia | I take it you are the owner? :) |
| 15:18.36 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 15:18.53 | kurzum | idk, but imo trac should do just fine |
| 15:18.54 | plusminus | nice link to anddev.org :D |
| 15:19.17 | zhobbs | :) |
| 15:19.31 | acsia | well best resources for android isn't it ;) |
| 15:20.22 | kurzum | acsia: what do you havve in mind in terms of administration? |
| 15:20.37 | acsia | well the first thing is to set up the trove map |
| 15:21.05 | acsia | currently it is at default with all platform for all language |
| 15:21.30 | acsia | I was thinking about setting it up with list of emulators and phone to come |
| 15:21.55 | acsia | so project can be specific to a phone etc... and then just general admin on the server or project if needed |
| 15:22.39 | acsia | it runs on a vps, I woudl need maybe a couple of people for root access to the server and gforge |
| 15:22.53 | thresh | i've just a read about an s/xmpp/gtalk/ problem, is it that bad as it's described? |
| 15:23.18 | kurzum | what do you need trove for? |
| 15:24.03 | acsia | well the trove project tree within gforge |
| 15:24.52 | kurzum | ah i see, i thought you meant the other trove :D |
| 15:25.36 | acsia | do you mean this http://www.trovemaps.com/ :D |
| 15:26.01 | kurzum | no i meant this: http://trove4j.sourceforge.net/ :D |
| 15:27.00 | kurzum | btw the german localization is really baaaad |
| 15:27.29 | kurzum | imo trac with ssl svn acces should be enough for most open source android projects |
| 15:27.35 | kurzum | kind of like assembla.com |
| 15:28.23 | acsia | assembla looks interesting |
| 15:28.55 | acsia | well trac is good yes but it would be more 1 project per site |
| 15:29.06 | acsia | I was more thinking rubyforge + gem |
| 15:29.26 | acsia | I am thinking about building a automatic install and upgrade tool for android |
| 15:29.35 | kurzum | which means? |
| 15:29.38 | acsia | like gem for ruby |
| 15:29.47 | acsia | or apt-get for debian |
| 15:30.14 | acsia | maybe mingle it with openintent |
| 15:30.20 | kurzum | i see |
| 15:30.32 | acsia | but time is not really on my side nowadays... |
| 15:30.48 | kurzum | but theres no backward compatibility yet |
| 15:31.18 | acsia | well not the os itself but rather applications |
| 15:31.38 | kurzum | ah like webstart |
| 15:31.47 | acsia | for instance if your activity calls an intent that is not installed then it could connect and check online for potential applications |
| 15:32.18 | kurzum | yeah and if your application isnt up to date just get the latest version |
| 15:32.28 | kurzum | yeah not a bad idea actually |
| 15:32.31 | acsia | and give you a list of application that handles such intent |
| 15:33.00 | acsia | I am thinking about it lately... I might begin to work on that next |
| 15:33.08 | zhobbs | it would be hard to capture all intents though right? |
| 15:33.17 | acsia | so a central site as androforge could be a good start |
| 15:33.47 | kurzum | well i guess youd need a service and all the apps which want to benefit from the auto update functionality have to go through that service |
| 15:34.09 | acsia | on the server side it is not that hard |
| 15:34.21 | acsia | you just need to read the manifest |
| 15:34.32 | zhobbs | acsia: that's true |
| 15:34.34 | acsia | and create a db with app against intent |
| 15:35.03 | zhobbs | actually, that only tells you what intents it can handle, not what intents it uses |
| 15:35.26 | kurzum | well thats the point |
| 15:35.59 | kurzum | then you can get all the apps that can handle a given intent |
| 15:36.04 | acsia | well on the client side, the system knows if the intent exists or not locally, if it can not find it connect to a central site and give a list of application that can handle that intent |
| 15:36.11 | kurzum | capturing the intents on the client side is another story |
| 15:36.29 | acsia | probably hook into the system somehow |
| 15:36.51 | zhobbs | yeah, that's what i was saying...capturing unknown intents wouldn't be a standard process |
| 15:37.43 | zhobbs | but when there's a will there's a way |
| 15:37.52 | acsia | I ll wait a bit as last milestone had a quite a lot of changes to the manifest... this system would need to implemented on a mature system |
| 15:37.59 | acsia | hehe |
| 15:38.03 | acsia | surely |
| 15:38.29 | kurzum | well once they release the os source it should be easy |
| 15:39.27 | acsia | yes and the first phone to get you excited :D |
| 15:39.49 | acsia | I wonder how the US/Europe distribution will happen |
| 15:41.01 | plusminus | last night I dreamed of getting a Preview Phone from HTC :D |
| 15:41.23 | acsia | lol |
| 15:41.24 | kurzum | haha |
| 15:41.35 | kurzum | androids haunting your dreams |
| 15:41.45 | zhobbs | hehe |
| 15:41.52 | plusminus | I was ripped out of the dream as my cat bit my toe... |
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| 15:42.14 | zhobbs | unfortunately I've had some dreams related to listviews... |
| 15:42.15 | kurzum | what a pity :D |
| 15:42.24 | acsia | maybe your phone was ringing |
| 15:42.36 | kurzum | your non android phone btw :D |
| 15:42.46 | plusminus | :P |
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| 16:04.28 | zhobbs | there's no dialogs to change the wallpaper in M5 right? The one on the homescreen doesn't work for me... |
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| 16:14.08 | muthu | zhobbs: i don't think there is |
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| 16:39.25 | jasta | i'm so tired this morning i'm not sure if it would be safe to drive :) |
| 16:39.35 | jasta | maybe i should work from home today |
| 16:42.48 | zhobbs | jasta: eventually you're going to have to sleep ;) |
| 16:43.24 | jasta | no, sleeping adequately each night is no longer in the cards for me now that android is out ;) |
| 16:44.29 | jasta | perhaps i'll have a short break after the ADC |
| 16:45.00 | zhobbs | yeah, until the next one in the fall |
| 16:46.03 | jasta | i'm not going to participate in the second one. |
| 16:46.23 | jasta | after the first challenge, i will probably just happily maintain my application until i find that it is mature enough to move on |
| 16:46.53 | jasta | probably i will do some smaller apps like a couple of games depending on what the landscape of android software looks like by then |
| 16:49.57 | zhobbs | yeah right, when you have an actual phone you'll be even more into it |
| 16:51.07 | trigatch4____ | Hehe... the question is, if one carrier comes out with the first Android well before the others... will i sign a new one year contract just cause i need it, need it, need it |
| 16:51.10 | jasta | eventually yeah, but i will want to ease off my development a bit :) |
| 16:51.16 | jasta | for a month or two to breathe :) |
| 16:51.27 | jasta | trigatch4____: Why would you? Just unlock it. |
| 16:51.35 | jasta | The first Android phone is likely to be quad-band :) |
| 16:51.44 | jasta | Who knows, maybe you won't even NEED to unlock it ;0 |
| 16:52.01 | trigatch4____ | Well... I'm an idea guy not a tech/programming guy |
| 16:52.06 | trigatch4____ | So all that is well above my head |
| 16:52.45 | trigatch4____ | I just wish I WAS a programmer so I could get all the damn ideas I have into product form... but instead I have to wait for someone else to develop them (and make bank off them!) |
| 16:53.11 | jasta | unlocking is not a programmatic technique. It just involves removing arbitrary restrictions that binds a phone to a particular cell phone carrier network. |
| 16:53.31 | trigatch4____ | Trying to get a high school buddy who knows Java to partner with me... |
| 16:53.33 | zhobbs | in other words you'll just run a program and hook the phone to your usb or something |
| 16:53.52 | zhobbs | trigatch4____: better get going if you guys want to enter the challenge |
| 16:54.00 | trigatch4____ | Well when they come out, I'll make sure to run over here and msg you begging you to help me out |
| 16:54.06 | jasta | trigatch4____: You realize, of course, that being a programmer is not an intrinsic quality, yes? You actually could become one if you weren't so lazy and/or stupid :) |
| 16:54.32 | trigatch4____ | Yeah I don't think it is going to happen... he works too damn much |
| 16:54.43 | zhobbs | jasta: I don't know about that... |
| 16:54.53 | trigatch4____ | Lazy? Haha I've been up for Over the past 72 hours I've only gotten around 10 hours of sleep |
| 16:54.59 | trigatch4____ | Doing all work |
| 16:55.05 | jasta | trigatch4____: Then you must be stupid |
| 16:55.10 | jasta | hehe |
| 16:55.13 | zhobbs | jasta: some people's brains aren't wired to be technical |
| 16:55.27 | trigatch4____ | Plus... yes |
| 16:55.34 | trigatch4____ | anyone can learn programming |
| 16:56.01 | trigatch4____ | But having years and years of practice and learning just working IN programming and playing with code and figuring things out and doing this and that... those years are priceless |
| 16:56.16 | jasta | zhobbs: Sure, there's some grain of truth there, but he could still learn to do it. He might just never be proficient. |
| 16:56.22 | trigatch4____ | And you can't just artifically create that experience in a couple months, you have to learn for yourself |
| 16:56.32 | trigatch4____ | Unless you're doogie effing howser |
| 16:56.44 | jasta | trigatch4____: So you're lazy then? |
| 16:56.46 | trigatch4____ | But I'm trigatch effing four |
| 16:56.54 | jasta | Make up your mind. Lazy, stupid, or both :) |
| 16:56.57 | zhobbs | for sure anyone can learn, just some people (even some smart people) would never be good at it |
| 16:57.23 | trigatch4____ | i can pick both? |
| 16:57.24 | jasta | zhobbs: I'm just harrassing him anyway. We both know he won't learn squat :) |
| 16:57.26 | trigatch4____ | how generous |
| 16:58.20 | trigatch4____ | It's true... I'm too busy to pick up learning a programming language although I wish I had the time. But I got bills to pay! |
| 16:58.27 | zhobbs | I drank too much last night, I feel both lazy and stupid today... |
| 16:58.38 | trigatch4____ | What was your drink of choice |
| 16:59.22 | zhobbs | beers, shots, cocktails :) |
| 16:59.34 | jasta | trigatch4____: Resolve to either learn what you want, or stop wanting to learn it. That state of limbo you're in is annoying to the rest of us :) |
| 17:00.06 | zhobbs | trigatch4____: jasta doesn't sleep either |
| 17:02.07 | trigatch4____ | I'm not in a state of limbo, I would categoriz it as a yearning pessimism best expressed through jealousy. :) |
| 17:02.07 | zhobbs | I gotta figure out if it's even worth starting another project.... |
| 17:02.25 | trigatch4____ | beers, shots, cocktails? hahaha spreading the love all around |
| 17:02.54 | zhobbs | pretty much finished the first project, wondering if it's worth getting another one going |
| 17:03.18 | jasta | burnt out already? :) |
| 17:04.05 | zhobbs | just thinking about the late nights it's going to require for the next 6 weeks |
| 17:04.46 | jasta | I'm starting to consider that perhaps the source of my sleeplessness is my ever unfulfilling day job. |
| 17:05.02 | jasta | Maybe when this all gets going after the Summer, I will look for work elsewhere. |
| 17:07.24 | zhobbs | I need a day job, just being picky |
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| 17:50.04 | zhobbs | does anyone else get a lot of IllegalStateException's when using Cursors? |
| 17:53.17 | jasta | no? there is an exception in finalize() that detects whether or not you've closed it properly |
| 17:53.34 | jasta | you have to explicitly close or deactivate your non-managed cursors when youre done with them |
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| 17:57.02 | zhobbs | Oh, ok |
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| 18:06.13 | jasta | kind of a shame we dont have an apidemo |
| 18:06.21 | zhobbs | yah |
| 18:07.18 | romainguy_ | we didn't have the time |
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| 18:07.36 | jasta | considering that it utilizes ActivityGroup, which we've never seen before, ... |
| 18:14.49 | skicso1 | perhaps you should extend the ADC again. *ducks* |
| 18:14.54 | jasta | i suspect that tab host cannot be used through xml |
| 18:14.58 | muthu | jasta: http://www.jsharkey.org/blog/2008/02/14/android-tabhost-in-the-m5-sdk/ |
| 18:15.14 | jasta | neat :) |
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| 18:35.20 | zhobbs | romainguy__: did you say that .equals() shouldn't throw a NPE? |
| 18:37.02 | romainguy__ | zhobbs: yes |
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| 18:55.50 | zhobbs | hmm, I can't play any videos with xine or mplayer if the emulator is running... |
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| 19:06.03 | muthu | zhobss: i've noticed that too |
| 19:06.16 | muthu | sorry, zhobbs |
| 19:07.17 | zhobbs | I thought it was just my X setup or something |
| 19:07.23 | zhobbs | muthu: nvida card? |
| 19:08.11 | muthu | i run linux.. i guess that's the one |
| 19:08.29 | muthu | right you mentioned xine or mplayer |
| 19:08.51 | zhobbs | yeah, in linux |
| 19:09.30 | muthu | i noticed the audio getting blocked |
| 19:09.40 | zhobbs | yeah, me too |
| 19:10.12 | zhobbs | it'll hog the audio, I have to be playing music when I launch the emulator or else I can't play audio |
| 19:10.26 | zhobbs | I need to get hardware mixing going |
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| 20:38.27 | f00f- | yeah the audio situation on linux still sucks |
| 20:38.48 | f00f- | you can do some ALSA hackery to support /dev/dsp mixing |
| 20:38.55 | f00f- | but still is a nightmare |
| 20:39.04 | zhobbs | I need to setup dmix I think |
| 20:39.07 | f00f- | so you get things like one app hogging the audio |
| 20:39.53 | f00f- | yeah even with dmix you get into some situations |
| 20:39.54 | jasta | f00f-: ALSA supports software and hardware mixing out of the box, actually. |
| 20:40.27 | f00f- | of course, but most people don't have hardware mixers on their sound cards :) |
| 20:40.38 | f00f- | at least most laptops |
| 20:40.48 | jasta | f00f-: Which is why it's good that it supports software mixing. |
| 20:40.50 | f00f- | probably most on-board sound too |
| 20:40.56 | jasta | It supports multiple channels software mixed together. |
| 20:41.12 | f00f- | yeah, although i think it still has issues with multiple apps using ALSA and OSS emulation at the same time |
| 20:41.38 | jasta | Through /dev/dsp even if you have the ALSA OSS wrappers. |
| 20:41.39 | f00f- | VMWare uses OSS, so whenever I try to run an ALSA app alongside it, it doesn't exactly work nicely |
| 20:41.42 | f00f- | even with dmix, hmm |
| 20:42.25 | f00f- | what does the android emulator use? |
| 20:42.51 | jasta | f00f-: OSS is not a problem. ALSA can happily wrap it. |
| 20:43.36 | jasta | OSS causes locking and disables the software mixer, though. |
| 20:43.52 | f00f- | i don't use OSS |
| 20:44.07 | jasta | that said, you can make any application work easily by using the wrapper |
| 20:44.17 | jasta | aoss some-stupid-oss-app |
| 20:44.28 | f00f- | why do you need a wrapper if you have OSS emulation enabled in ALSA? |
| 20:45.17 | jasta | OSS doesn't support software mixing, and so ALSA's emulation of it doesn't either. |
| 20:45.39 | jasta | aoss, hwoever, does support that. |
| 20:46.41 | f00f- | oh that sucks |
| 20:46.57 | jasta | agreed, but OSS totally sucks, and any application still using it must be updated. |
| 20:47.08 | f00f- | funny thing is |
| 20:47.17 | f00f- | VMWare Player doesn't support ALSA |
| 20:47.29 | f00f- | yet their regular (pay) version does |
| 20:47.36 | jasta | that's probably their heavy-handed way of asking you to buy the non-free version. |
| 20:47.51 | f00f- | same thing with RealPlayer for linux iirc |
| 20:47.54 | jasta | Still, I bet you can run aoss to wrap vmplayer :) |
| 20:48.15 | jasta | RealPlayer ofr Linux is a joke. MPlayer supports everything it does. |
| 20:48.30 | f00f- | including all the proprietary Real codecs? |
| 20:48.37 | jasta | Yes |
| 20:49.22 | jasta | MPlayer supports numerous proprietary codecs by various methods, including loading native Win32 DLLs and invoking functionality from them. |
| 20:49.41 | jasta | winelib makes that a quite stable practice. |
| 20:50.11 | f00f- | ya |
| 20:50.20 | jasta | MPlayer also embeds into Firefox to allow playback of streaming WMV and Real media. |
| 20:50.45 | f00f- | yeah i had real bad luck with that one in the pasat |
| 20:50.49 | f00f- | probably more stable now |
| 20:50.52 | jasta | None of this is stock on Debian or Ubuntu, of course, because MPlayer is tainted as non-free this way. |
| 20:51.05 | jasta | and even illegal to distribute in some countries |
| 20:53.01 | jasta | which is unfortunate, but both distros have a separate apt source for all this, and it is easy enough to install once you add it. |
| 20:53.08 | jasta | Ubuntu even has a HOWTO about it specifically |
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| 21:16.57 | jasta | grr, the androidmanifest editor really pukes all over your hand-crafted XML |
| 21:17.07 | jasta | the last it could do is freaking indent for you |
| 21:18.46 | jasta | least* |
| 21:18.59 | romainguy___ | it's in the work |
| 21:22.03 | jasta | i'll just not use it :P |
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| 21:52.32 | _avatar | i've been reading through the android docs, and have a question. from what i gather it's not safe to poke at UI components from a background thread. if a background thread calls an EventListener, what's the preferred way to bounce a message back to the main thread, so the UI can update accordingly? sorry if this is a stupid question, but the solution doesn't appear to be immediately obvious to me :) |
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| 21:53.30 | romainguy___ | _avatar: Look at View.post(Runnable) |
| 21:53.36 | romainguy___ | _avatar: you can also use a Handler |
| 21:54.01 | _avatar | romainguy: thanks! |
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| 21:55.30 | _avatar | View.post sounds handy, not sure how I missed that |
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| 21:58.47 | jasta | now that i'm comfortable wrapping a cursoradapter, i wonder if it makes sense to write an adapter to stitch multiple cursors together to produce a much more dynamic list view |
| 21:59.06 | jasta | so i could have one view that can show both albums and single tracks |
| 21:59.18 | jasta | without putting that join in the database necessarily |
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| 22:00.56 | zhobbs | why avoid the join? |
| 22:01.11 | f00f- | that's what i was asking you the other day jasta, how to do a join :D |
| 22:04.14 | jasta | zhobbs: well because the two types of data are not related. that is, the listview would have two different types of row views. |
| 22:04.26 | jasta | one to show an album, the other to show dangling tracks not associated with an album. |
| 22:07.07 | zhobbs | so wouldn't really be a join, just two cursors |
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| 22:12.25 | jasta | zhobbs: yes, but a join would work, it would just be one-to-many. |
| 22:12.59 | jasta | f00f-: And I told you that you can't that way. That is still true. |
| 22:13.31 | jasta | I never said anything about writing an adapter to place multiple cursors into a list in some way. |
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| 22:41.17 | davidw | so... this gtalk peer to peer thing.... is there any way to use that from 'outside'? say, a web server? |
| 22:41.29 | f00f- | umm |
| 22:41.31 | f00f- | if oyu implement a client |
| 22:41.31 | f00f- | sure |
| 22:41.32 | morrildl | davidw: well, that's one more :) |
| 22:41.50 | f00f- | support the x-google stanzas or whatnot |
| 22:42.02 | morrildl | currently, though, f00f- is correct |
| 22:42.15 | davidw | f00f-, ok, but how do you implement the client? run the emulator on the server and talk to it with telnet?;-) |
| 22:42.20 | f00f- | well |
| 22:42.22 | f00f- | i debug with pidgin |
| 22:42.26 | f00f- | look at the xml stanzas sent across |
| 22:42.37 | f00f- | really it's just some extra stuff they send |
| 22:42.40 | davidw | ok, reverse engineer it:-) |
| 22:42.42 | f00f- | it's like a chat but without the body iirc |
| 22:42.43 | f00f- | right |
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| 22:42.49 | f00f- | but no real assurances that they won't change it |
| 22:43.02 | zhobbs | davidw: you can make an XMPP client to work with Gtalk |
| 22:43.09 | davidw | zhobbs, I have that part working |
| 22:43.13 | f00f- | imho, they're missing somethings still, like groupchat P2P data |
| 22:43.16 | davidw | it's about 2 lines or ruby |
| 22:43.25 | zhobbs | davidw: I mean for the server |
| 22:43.30 | morrildl | f00f-: correct, group chat is kinda broken at the moment |
| 22:43.41 | davidw | but if you just send ordinary messages, afaik you can't fetch them with the intent |
| 22:43.43 | f00f- | i'm looking at making a service though |
| 22:43.53 | f00f- | instead of using lame/slow HTTP |
| 22:43.59 | f00f- | i'd make a Jabber service/bot that does the same |
| 22:44.02 | f00f- | low-latency requests |
| 22:44.06 | f00f- | no need for setup/teardown of HTTP |
| 22:44.11 | f00f- | what do oyu think? |
| 22:44.21 | f00f- | since the XMPP connection is always open |
| 22:44.23 | f00f- | supposedly |
| 22:44.43 | zhobbs | the problem with using gtalk for all this peer to peer stuff is security also, all apps can access those messages as they come in right? |
| 22:45.00 | f00f- | well the way data works is you specify an intent |
| 22:45.03 | f00f- | with a package |
| 22:45.13 | f00f- | so if you send it with com.x.y only com.x.y.* will receive the data msg |
| 22:45.16 | davidw | morrildl, very high level, what I want to do is to wake up an app from a web server at an arbitrary time. I would like to not pay SMS prices. Beyond that, I don't care what it's built with! |
| 22:45.26 | zhobbs | f00f-: interesting, didn't know that |
| 22:45.43 | zhobbs | davidw: I have the same requirements for an app... |
| 22:45.55 | davidw | zhobbs, I think a lot of people do |
| 22:46.15 | davidw | lets get the pitchforks and torches and march on mountain view |
| 22:46.19 | morrildl | zhobbs: +1 :) |
| 22:46.33 | f00f- | i'm game for that |
| 22:46.54 | zhobbs | gtalk is the answer for now |
| 22:47.01 | davidw | gtalk seems pretty good |
| 22:47.25 | davidw | I got it working so that I could write Hecl code in a chat window and have the emulator doing stuff, so I was happy |
| 22:47.35 | zhobbs | I don't like having to make my users signup for a gtalk account |
| 22:48.11 | f00f- | it sucks |
| 22:48.13 | davidw | I actually don't mind that. I just wish I could use that same authentication for my own web site:-) |
| 22:48.13 | f00f- | so they suggest |
| 22:48.16 | f00f- | using a 3rd party xmpp lib |
| 22:48.31 | zhobbs | f00f-: you can't have that wake you up though right? |
| 22:48.50 | f00f- | lol |
| 22:48.51 | f00f- | what? |
| 22:49.03 | f00f- | you mean, is it as beautiful as using the gtalk api's? |
| 22:49.10 | f00f- | probably not, but you could make it better |
| 22:49.17 | f00f- | the gtalk api's suck atm for android |
| 22:49.22 | f00f- | but they're going to improve |
| 22:49.50 | zhobbs | f00f-: I just mean to receive a message using smack jars you'd have to have an always on service running right? |
| 22:50.01 | f00f- | yeah |
| 22:50.12 | f00f- | essentially mimicking the GTalkService |
| 22:50.15 | f00f- | that they have running already |
| 22:50.19 | zhobbs | right |
| 22:50.24 | f00f- | whichis not a bad idea at all |
| 22:50.28 | f00f- | it would be a cool open source project |
| 22:50.32 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 22:50.35 | f00f- | i know internally gtalk uses smack anyway |
| 22:50.49 | f00f- | really sucks how they don't expose it fully as a generic XMPP service object |
| 22:51.03 | zhobbs | yep |
| 22:51.27 | f00f- | part of the reason is the verbosity of XML |
| 22:51.34 | f00f- | so they came out with a binary protocol |
| 22:51.54 | zhobbs | also, there's no way to create a service, start it, and then have any guarentees that it won't be gutted for the resources |
| 22:52.20 | zhobbs | the system will kill it if it needs it's resources |
| 22:52.21 | f00f- | yeah, and that's what really worries me |
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| 22:52.28 | f00f- | will a Service be the first to be killed or last? |
| 22:52.46 | zhobbs | hehe, just make it a receiver for CLOCK_TICK :) |
| 22:52.48 | f00f- | i'd rather have all Activities killed before a service |
| 22:52.53 | f00f- | lol |
| 22:54.06 | f00f- | such is this |
| 22:54.07 | f00f- | bbl |
| 22:54.08 | f00f- | & |
| 23:00.16 | jasta | zhobbs: services have different rules for app death. |
| 23:01.15 | jasta | specifically, services will only be killed to make room for the foreground process. the reality is, that won't happen unless the user runs a program which abuses the phone's resources quite rampantly. it's unlikely the user will run that application again :) |
| 23:01.28 | davidw | f00f-, it'll be so cool to get the source code |
| 23:01.39 | davidw | you can try plugging in different allocation strategies:-) |
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| 23:06.47 | jasta | i wonder what jasonchen does at google |
| 23:07.13 | jasonchen | jasta: let's have your best guess |
| 23:07.21 | davidw | he's a developer advocate like morrildl |
| 23:07.26 | davidw | oh, oops, spoiled it |
| 23:07.41 | jasonchen | davidw: that's just what i told you in munich :-) |
| 23:08.04 | davidw | he keeps the developers like romainguy__ freshly supplied with _'s |
| 23:08.11 | romainguy____ | ^^ |
| 23:08.18 | romainguy____ | davidw: blame my stupid Apple router :) |
| 23:08.23 | jasta | so romain is the only developer we have in here? |
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| 23:08.42 | davidw | wasn't there a kernel guy too a while ago, at the beginning? |
| 23:08.48 | jasta | yeah |
| 23:08.49 | romainguy____ | swetland ? |
| 23:08.52 | romainguy____ | he drops by from time to time |
| 23:08.53 | morrildl | yeah, it was swetland |
| 23:09.04 | jasta | but only romain is active |
| 23:09.08 | morrildl | jasta: Jason and I think of ourselves as "Recovering Developers" ;) |
| 23:09.19 | jasta | morrildl: Great, I don't :P |
| 23:09.47 | romainguy____ | morrildl: wait till you see how many APIs we changed for the next SDK :p |
| 23:09.47 | jasta | I'm just kidding, I still don't even understand what you guys do. |
| 23:10.23 | davidw | how do you balance that out? I mean, if you guys don't write code, you'll get rusty and end up just yelling 'DEVELOPERS!' a lot or something |
| 23:10.43 | morrildl | davidw: we actually are writing code |
| 23:10.47 | jasonchen | davidw: we balance it by writing sample apps and whatnot |
| 23:10.50 | morrildl | but as you say, it's a balance |
| 23:10.53 | davidw | cool |
| 23:10.57 | jasta | romainguy____: Sigh, I just started to get happy that I can write a large portion of Android code without ever stopping to check docs ;) |
| 23:11.17 | romainguy____ | "Every time you report a bug, we change an API" |
| 23:11.18 | jasta | i just tossed together a custom adapter and wrote several layout XML files all from memory |
| 23:11.28 | davidw | wow |
| 23:11.31 | morrildl | jasta: nice |
| 23:11.53 | duey | so we can blame jasta for all the api changes? |
| 23:12.02 | jasta | i'm getting efficient at this android business :) |
| 23:12.17 | romainguy____ | duey: no he just reports bugs what we already fixed |
| 23:12.23 | duey | lol |
| 23:12.27 | jasta | i still think he's lying to me. |
| 23:12.56 | jasta | i think he just fixes them and then SAYS they were fixed :) |
| 23:13.31 | romainguy____ | uhuh |
| 23:13.40 | romainguy____ | I wish I could fix them that fast |
| 23:14.13 | duey | they are not bugs you see jasta |
| 23:14.18 | duey | they are features |
| 23:14.38 | morrildl | jasta: well, we have several hundred commits per day, looking at the numbers. Even a blind squirrel fixes a bug every now and then ;) |
| 23:15.15 | romainguy____ | 6 commits since my last check in 15 minutes ago :) |
| 23:16.19 | jasta | most of the bugs i've caught were really easy to find. as the complexity of my app grows i can't help but stumble on them |
| 23:16.29 | jasta | so i do actually suspect that someone at google has already seen it |
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| 23:18.59 | jasta | hmm, this is new. is dp a synonym for dip? |
| 23:19.06 | jasta | or is that a new unit? |
| 23:20.55 | romainguy____ | dp == dip |
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| 23:38.48 | jasta | romainguy____: would it be good practice to register a content observer on any cursor i use in my layout directly (like a header textview) so that i can catch the case that the item is deleted or modified and appropriately redraw like a listview would? |
| 23:39.22 | jasta | and specifically, for the delete case, should my activity just finish() and get out of the user's face? |
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