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| 00:24.37 | jmhodges | does anyone know why Bundles are so often named "icicle"? |
| 00:25.10 | romainguy_ | because of onFreeze/onThaw |
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| 01:34.41 | jasta | romainguy_: i dislike goto's, but i permit them in certin cases. |
| 01:34.48 | romainguy_ | they're useful |
| 01:34.52 | romainguy_ | in very specific situations |
| 01:34.58 | jasta | there is usually a better way to avoid them by refactoring your functions to more logically match your program's flow. |
| 01:35.07 | jasta | but not always, and in that case, goto's are nice. |
| 01:35.57 | jasta | a lot of programmers factor their code very poorly. long functions with awkwardly large indentations, for example. |
| 01:40.55 | romainguy_ | just like Android's UI toolkit's source code :)) |
| 01:40.57 | romainguy_ | but we have reasons for that |
| 01:41.26 | jasta | lol |
| 01:41.31 | jasta | you'd better :) |
| 01:41.37 | romainguy_ | it's quite easy |
| 01:41.53 | jasta | that's your reason? |
| 01:41.55 | romainguy_ | no |
| 01:41.58 | romainguy_ | the reason is performance |
| 01:43.11 | jasta | i assume you've profiled those cases? i have not done much performance analysis with Java, but i have done lots with C and i can say that hand-optimizing your code is ill-advised sometimes resulting in worse performance; usually resulting in identical performance. |
| 01:43.37 | romainguy_ | ... |
| 01:43.44 | romainguy_ | thanks for the lesson :) |
| 01:43.50 | jasta | things like unrolling your loops, avoiding natural function factorizations, etc. |
| 01:44.02 | romainguy_ | the fact is a java compiler is dumb |
| 01:44.08 | romainguy_ | and rely on the VM to optimize the code |
| 01:44.14 | romainguy_ | our VM does not have a JIT |
| 01:44.17 | romainguy_ | and yes, we do profile our code |
| 01:44.46 | romainguy_ | and removing method calls in the source code of performance critical code paths results in thousands (or hundreds of thousands) less method calls at runtime |
| 01:44.50 | romainguy_ | which does impact performance |
| 01:45.19 | jasta | would dx not be a more appropriate place to inline code? |
| 01:47.23 | romainguy_ | because we don't necessarily want to do the inlining everywhere |
| 01:47.35 | romainguy_ | I talked about "performance critical code paths" |
| 01:47.45 | jasta | i really hate to see a poor pairing of runtime VM and compiler be the reason programmers are forced to write terribly unmaintainable code. we should be passed those days :\ |
| 01:47.47 | romainguy_ | which is basically drawing |
| 01:47.53 | jasta | fair enough |
| 01:48.04 | romainguy_ | jasta, we're writing software for cell phones |
| 01:48.31 | romainguy_ | even with a good compiler and or VM you still have manual work to do |
| 01:48.40 | jasta | some, but certainly not inlining ;) |
| 01:48.53 | jasta | and certainly not unrolling loops, minimizing iteration variables, etc etc :) |
| 01:49.29 | jasta | you could list a hundred easy opts a compiler should definitely be doing. i'm just pained to see this ;) |
| 01:50.52 | jasta | oh well, Java has a major disadvantage in that it is not an old language. Perhaps some day... ;) |
| 01:51.34 | romainguy_ | I won't explain you again why the Java compiler is the way it is |
| 01:51.49 | jasta | nor am i asking you to restart that dialogue. |
| 01:53.31 | jasta | many other much older languages have multiple very sophisticated implementations of both runtime and compiler, well suited for different targets and applications. |
| 01:53.35 | jasta | that is all i was saying. |
| 01:54.03 | jasta | that will happen organically as Java ages, so, perhaps some day... |
| 01:54.16 | romainguy_ | again, there's no need for Java to do this |
| 01:54.17 | romainguy_ | it' |
| 01:54.22 | romainguy_ | it's the VM's role |
| 01:54.47 | jasta | i am specifically calling out "both runtime and compiler", you know. |
| 01:54.48 | romainguy_ | and besides, on similar hardware I've seen Android perform a lost faster than Windows Mobile |
| 01:55.01 | romainguy_ | speaks highly of old languages with very smart compilers ;-)) |
| 01:55.17 | jasta | many parts of Windows Mobile are written in C#, but still, not a fair test. |
| 01:55.36 | jasta | Microsoft is in a bubble. They don't count as programmers, engineers, or even thinking individuals. |
| 01:55.47 | jasta | :) |
| 01:56.35 | jasta | as an aside, what the hell is the deal with Windows Mobile? Why does it look and run like Windows 95? |
| 01:57.42 | jasta | I have been using WM for my personal phones for years now and I have hated every minute of it. I am so ready to throw this piece of crap out the window and pick up an Android phone. |
| 02:06.24 | kurzum | i can have a VideoView in a RelativeLayout right? |
| 02:06.32 | kurzum | it kind of screws up the whole layout |
| 02:07.44 | kurzum | if i explicitly set the width and height parts of it are transparent, i.e. i can see the default checker board background |
| 02:07.52 | kurzum | if not then its just a thin line |
| 02:08.29 | kurzum | and it always stays on the same absolute position despite of being in a ScrollLayout |
| 02:09.52 | jasta | what happens if you replace the VideoView with some other sort of View to make sure its not just your layout that's broken? |
| 02:10.55 | kurzum | before that i had an ImageView and it worked fine |
| 02:11.30 | jasta | i can't speak to your specific case then. haven't tried it. |
| 02:11.54 | kurzum | all right, just wanted to know if anyone has encountered any similar issues |
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| 03:03.34 | zgold | Hello! Can anybody tell me how to make a TextView foricbly refresh its contents? I'm adding text to it and I need to scroll to the 'new bottom' of the view. However it doesn't yet know the new bottom because it hasn't yet updated. |
| 03:05.26 | zhobbs | not sure that you need to refresh the textview (maybe it's container?), but view.invalidate() would do it |
| 03:05.57 | zgold | I'll give invalidate() a go |
| 03:06.18 | zhobbs | like I said though, you shouldn't have to invalidate the text view, should do that when you setText() |
| 03:06.22 | zgold | I'm literally calling messageBox.append("blah"); ScrollView.fullScroll(ScrollView.FOCUS_DOWN) |
| 03:06.42 | zhobbs | ok |
| 03:07.00 | zhobbs | so scrollview might need the invalidate() |
| 03:07.10 | zgold | I did both =P |
| 03:07.28 | zgold | Nope :/ |
| 03:07.32 | zgold | Still not recognizing the new line |
| 03:09.01 | zgold | It scrolls to the bottom of the view before the new line. |
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| 03:10.10 | zhobbs | zgold: could be a bug, I've noticed some buggy behavior in a ScrollView I'm using |
| 03:10.38 | zgold | I had this same issue in m3, was hoping it was fixed in m5 |
| 03:11.13 | zgold | I'm writing a messenger... i can't imagine i'm the only one doing so and i cant imagine im the only one using a TextView ad a conversation pane =P |
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| 03:17.08 | jmhodges | romainguy_: ah, of course. duh |
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| 03:25.36 | zgold | Tried the TextWatcher route; no go :/ |
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| 05:26.31 | muthu | jasta: the perl guru :) |
| 05:30.13 | muthu | my cpan is messed up..weird |
| 05:30.24 | jasta | i know many languages. |
| 05:31.52 | muthu | yeah.. that's why you are the guru ;) |
| 05:32.09 | jasta | i dont know that that qualifies, but thanks :) |
| 05:32.57 | muthu | Can't locate object method "new" via package "Net::FTP" at /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8/CPAN.pm line 2250. |
| 05:33.12 | muthu | jasta: any ideas? |
| 05:33.25 | muthu | that happens when i run cpan |
| 05:33.25 | jasta | what distro do you use? |
| 05:33.30 | muthu | fc6 |
| 05:33.36 | jasta | you're on your own then ;) |
| 05:33.43 | muthu | yeah time to upgrade |
| 05:33.50 | jasta | in debian/ubuntu, perl packages are mostly in apt |
| 05:34.02 | muthu | its yum here |
| 05:34.08 | muthu | and cpan for modules |
| 05:35.21 | jasta | there's no base or anything? |
| 05:35.27 | jasta | perl-base? or perl-net or something? |
| 05:36.00 | jasta | has anyone noticed you can just start typing from the android home screen to bring up a contact search? |
| 05:36.45 | muthu | my $ftp = Net::FTP->new($host); |
| 05:36.54 | muthu | that's the line throwing the error |
| 05:37.07 | jasta | right, because Net::FTP hasn't been used or it doesn't exist. |
| 05:37.20 | jasta | and only the latter if Net::FTP was conditionally required. |
| 05:37.27 | muthu | yeah.. underneath its looking for a particular ftp binary |
| 05:37.30 | jasta | which is what CPAN would do when it was configured. |
| 05:37.46 | jasta | one thing you could try is just wiping out .cpan and firing up perl -MCPAN -e 'install whatever' |
| 05:37.56 | muthu | ok |
| 05:37.57 | jasta | that way, CPAN would go through configuration again and search for a suitable package delivery method |
| 05:38.08 | muthu | right |
| 05:38.20 | muthu | i had all this setup before.. oh well |
| 05:38.37 | jasta | CPAN.pm is very flexible. It can work in lots of environments |
| 05:38.52 | jasta | what do you need CPAN for though? |
| 05:39.11 | muthu | i noticed you were using certain modules |
| 05:39.33 | jasta | i use Unicode::String |
| 05:39.44 | jasta | used* |
| 05:39.47 | muthu | [sara@notebookws114 android-system-apks]$ ./axml2xml.pl AndroidManifest.xml |
| 05:39.47 | muthu | Can't locate Unicode/String.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8/i386-lin |
| 05:39.47 | muthu | BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ./axml2xml.pl line 24. |
| 05:39.57 | muthu | sorry for the mess |
| 05:40.01 | jasta | right, so just provide that. you could just go download it, or i bet there is an RPM for it. |
| 05:40.11 | muthu | true |
| 05:40.19 | jasta | but if you blow out .cpan and start again it should also work |
| 05:40.23 | jasta | unless your perl install is completely hosed |
| 05:40.32 | muthu | i guess so |
| 05:40.42 | jasta | not surprising considering you use RedHat ;) |
| 05:40.48 | muthu | he he |
| 05:41.06 | muthu | Ubuntu.. is attractive |
| 05:41.14 | jasta | yes, i did apt-get install libunicode-string-perl |
| 05:41.15 | jasta | ;) |
| 05:41.29 | muthu | ok |
| 05:41.53 | muthu | i'm telling you.. it was working great |
| 05:41.54 | jasta | but, on my blog you can find a tarball with all the system APKs that I operated on with the script |
| 05:41.59 | jasta | so you don't need to run it yourself, necessarily |
| 05:42.10 | muthu | yeah i got that too |
| 05:42.48 | muthu | tried to put your perl to a field test ;) |
| 05:43.06 | jasta | i'd say it's putting you to a field test :) |
| 05:43.13 | muthu | true |
| 05:43.41 | muthu | i found out my perl is hosed, when i couldn't compile that opensource icons library |
| 05:44.02 | muthu | the name.. tangodesktop icons |
| 05:44.22 | jasta | i really couldn't help you. i know not what evil things your rh-based distro has done to perl :) |
| 05:45.02 | muthu | its the updates for sure |
| 05:45.21 | muthu | ok no issues |
| 05:49.20 | jasta | got it working? |
| 05:49.59 | muthu | (11:14:51 AM) Muthu Ramadoss @ Yahoo: [sara@notebookws114 android-system-apks]$ perldoc cpan |
| 05:49.59 | muthu | Errno architecture (i386-linux-thread-multi-2.6.9-34.elsmp) does not match executable architecture (i386-linux-thread-multi-2.6.9-55.0.9.elsmp) at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Errno.pm line 11. |
| 05:50.16 | muthu | i'm sure its do with updates |
| 05:50.19 | jasta | hehe |
| 05:50.22 | jasta | looks like it ;) |
| 05:50.33 | muthu | yeah.. i'm checking out the yum repository configs |
| 05:53.47 | muthu | http://gigaom.com/2008/03/05/google%E2%80%99s-dan-morrill-on-android/ |
| 05:55.42 | muthu | Google grapes? |
| 05:57.28 | jasta | interesting ;0 |
| 05:58.56 | zhobbs | probably coming soon to apps-for-android |
| 05:59.18 | chaosvoyager | Will receiving an intent automatically thaw a frozen process? |
| 06:00.06 | zhobbs | it will bring the activity to focus |
| 06:01.18 | zhobbs | which I guess is thawing |
| 06:01.54 | chaosvoyager | So as long as I'm using intents to communicate between processes, I don't have to worry about things like DeadObjectException? |
| 06:02.11 | zhobbs | DeadObjectException is only for service interfaces |
| 06:02.50 | zhobbs | you only use intents for communication when starting or finishing an activity |
| 06:04.42 | chaosvoyager | Part of the difficulty I'm having with Android is that where I come from, there isn't a difference between messaging between services and clients. The only difference is that clients render a UI. |
| 06:05.43 | chaosvoyager | And an actual running server is not as important if you have some action driven invocation like intents. |
| 06:06.25 | chaosvoyager | In fact, the only thing I can see a server being useful for is in support functions like transactions, and recording/playing media. |
| 06:06.39 | zhobbs | I assume you mean service |
| 06:06.55 | chaosvoyager | yes. |
| 06:07.12 | zhobbs | yeah, I don't even use a service for an app that polls for data...I just use an AlarmManager and IntentReceiver |
| 06:07.59 | zhobbs | but back and forth data exchange or like you said media playing services are nice |
| 06:08.30 | muthu | AlarmManger - is this not a service? |
| 06:08.46 | chaosvoyager | Yep. The IDL and synchronous server communication model is a mess. I actually think that's what threw me the most, and that's what I started learning Android with -_- |
| 06:08.56 | zhobbs | also anytime work is being done and you don't have to keep the user from switching from one activity to another without disturbing the work |
| 06:09.11 | jasta | chaosvoyager: I completely disagree. |
| 06:09.16 | zhobbs | muthu: a system service |
| 06:09.22 | jasta | chaosvoyager: Android's IPC is impressively superb. |
| 06:09.41 | chaosvoyager | For what? |
| 06:10.36 | muthu | I see 3 things |
| 06:10.40 | muthu | 1. Messaging |
| 06:10.44 | muthu | 2. Service |
| 06:10.47 | muthu | 3. IPC |
| 06:11.24 | muthu | is there more? |
| 06:11.37 | jasta | Why do you distinguish messaging from IPC? |
| 06:11.53 | muthu | because its different ;) |
| 06:12.01 | jasta | In what way? |
| 06:12.32 | chaosvoyager | I can do all those things with the equavalent of 'intents' in other systems like Smalltalk. In addition, the 'service' is not taking up processor resources while not being called. |
| 06:12.56 | jasta | chaosvoyager: Your service doesn't persist indefinitely. It starts when you ask for it, and it stops when you ask it to. |
| 06:13.02 | jasta | Or when it's done doing something. |
| 06:13.15 | jasta | It need only be alive while an application is going to interact with it. |
| 06:13.23 | jasta | or when it has something to do |
| 06:14.00 | muthu | jasta: ipc is sync, messaging is async |
| 06:14.07 | chaosvoyager | And that can all be event/message/intent driven. |
| 06:14.22 | jasta | muthu: Uhm, what? |
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| 06:15.44 | muthu | jasta: am i missing something? |
| 06:15.45 | chaosvoyager | That's the problem I have with Android's IPC (in addition to the fact that it has an added IDL language and doesn't completely work yet) it's a synchronous communication model applied to an asynchronous process model. |
| 06:15.49 | jasta | muthu: Yes, a lot. |
| 06:16.22 | jasta | muthu: IPC is an abstract device to allow synchronized communication between threads or processes. |
| 06:16.32 | jasta | Messaging is one concrete way to do that. |
| 06:16.51 | jasta | threads and/or processes, of course. |
| 06:16.56 | muthu | so you differ on the messaging |
| 06:17.12 | muthu | it might be concrete.. but its always async |
| 06:17.15 | jasta | muthu: Messaging and IPC do not have a sibling relationship, though. |
| 06:17.32 | muthu | yeah.. my point was ipc and messaging were different |
| 06:17.49 | jasta | IPC is a more general topic of discussion, messaging is one such way to do it. Message passing is an example of IPC. |
| 06:18.06 | jasta | same with sockets, semaphores, etc. |
| 06:18.09 | chaosvoyager | And normally, those threads are expected to be available when called synchronously, at least on every other platform I have used them on. |
| 06:19.29 | muthu | we all agree it seems |
| 06:19.50 | jasta | muthu: IPC is usually designed specifically to handle the problem of synchronizing multiple concurrent execution paths to colloborate on common goals. In that way, it is almost always found to be concretely implemented in a way that is capable of asynchronous communication. |
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| 06:20.52 | chaosvoyager | And to do that on Android, every one of those processes has to catch DeadObjectException :P |
| 06:21.33 | jasta | chaosvoyager: As any other system would. What does IPC do when one of the processes or threads disappears unexpectedly? What does a network service do when a client disconnects? It *handles it*. |
| 06:22.15 | chaosvoyager | Network services are asynchronous. IPC here is synchronous. |
| 06:22.28 | jasta | chaosvoyager: No, a network service is an instance of IPC. |
| 06:22.47 | chaosvoyager | In fact, on many synchronous systems, not finding a process alive is a 'shutdown' level error. |
| 06:22.56 | jasta | No, it isn't. |
| 06:23.08 | chaosvoyager | I'm talking design level there, not Android, sorry. |
| 06:23.21 | jasta | I know that you are, and you are also talking out of your ass. |
| 06:23.41 | jasta | Can you please define IPC for me. Let's try an exercise. |
| 06:23.43 | muthu | jasta: let me try this way |
| 06:23.49 | muthu | is messaging, ipc? |
| 06:24.09 | jasta | muthu: Yes. |
| 06:24.19 | jasta | In the same way that an apple is a fruit :) |
| 06:24.26 | muthu | ha ha |
| 06:24.39 | muthu | ok.. now we need apples and oranges :) |
| 06:24.47 | jasta | ok, how about a file? |
| 06:24.57 | jasta | a file can be your orange, if you'd like. |
| 06:25.12 | jasta | or how about POSIX signals? |
| 06:25.16 | chaosvoyager | In general, it's any kind of communication between processes. On Andriod, it's specifically the kind of synchronous communication facilitated through IDL. |
| 06:25.59 | jasta | chaosvoyager: Let's ignore that second sentence for a minute because it's wrong. The first sentence is correct. Good. |
| 06:26.23 | jasta | Now, what is Android's IPC mechanism? |
| 06:26.40 | chaosvoyager | What would you define the latter as? |
| 06:27.34 | jasta | Android's IPC system is a message-passing mechanism supported at the kernel level called OpenBinder that permits very robust and efficient communication between one (very important) or more threads and/or processes. |
| 06:27.54 | jasta | This mechanism is fully asynchronous. |
| 06:28.26 | jasta | Android's IPC system, btw, is not logically associated with a service. Or an activity, or any of that. |
| 06:29.07 | jasta | Android's IPC system is underlying all of the application components. It hides itself well. |
| 06:30.07 | jasta | services, activities, content providers, etc are simply user-contributed end-points for OpenBinder. |
| 06:31.01 | chaosvoyager | That's excellent. So OpenBinder underlies intents as well I assume? |
| 06:31.06 | jasta | the AIDL files are totally irrelevant. All they do is generate [de/]serialization methods to facilitate object passing through the OpenBinder. |
| 06:31.12 | jasta | chaosvoyager: Yes. |
| 06:31.51 | jasta | i wish hackbod was here, she'd probably chomp your head off :) |
| 06:32.12 | chaosvoyager | :P |
| 06:33.37 | jasta | If the two of you are doing saying silly things, I'll be going back to coding now ;) |
| 06:33.59 | muthu | i went back to coding a while ago ;) |
| 06:35.04 | jasta | i certainly won't force you to learn. at least, i won't over the internet ;P |
| 06:36.19 | muthu | if i win the challenge, i'll visit you :) |
| 06:36.19 | muthu | i have a partner in SF |
| 06:36.36 | jasta | i don't live in SF. |
| 06:36.37 | muthu | if we win, the next round fun will have to be in SF! |
| 06:36.39 | chaosvoyager | So technically, I CAN use intents as a general form of messaging, It's just not made easy. |
| 06:37.14 | jasta | chaosvoyager: You can, but it's not advisable. Why abuse one system not intended for that purpose when you have another much easier and reliable right in front of you? |
| 06:37.32 | muthu | jasta: you live in denver |
| 06:37.54 | jasta | i do? |
| 06:38.46 | muthu | yup.. based on my clues |
| 06:38.52 | muthu | :) |
| 06:38.54 | jasta | well, i live in seattle, wa, so sorry :) |
| 06:39.11 | jasta | you could've at least looked at my hostname and guessed tukwila, wa :) |
| 06:39.32 | muthu | i'm yet to check your flickr stream |
| 06:39.37 | muthu | i guess you posted it somewhere |
| 06:40.08 | muthu | saw a few snaps |
| 06:40.20 | jasta | i did |
| 06:40.48 | jasta | it's only of me camping, i think. it also demonstrates one of my ... erm, hobbies ;) |
| 06:41.09 | muthu | cool |
| 06:41.57 | jasta | ok, ok, i really must get back to coding |
| 06:42.10 | jasta | i am ironically working on my very elaborate asynchronous service :) |
| 06:43.26 | muthu | i thought so.. after you were printing huge chunks of manual ;) |
| 06:43.56 | muthu | "asynchronous service" :) |
| 06:44.20 | muthu | is there a synchronous service? |
| 06:44.33 | jasta | not really, wouldn't be very useful. |
| 06:44.47 | jasta | i mean, if you had one, why not just make a library? :) |
| 06:44.53 | muthu | yup |
| 06:45.02 | chaosvoyager | But what advantage is there is treating intents and server messages so differently? The only added facilty to the latter is you can check if a process is dead, which wouldn't be necessary if an intent would just wake it up. |
| 06:47.06 | muthu | chaosvoyager: are you suggesting we do with intents and not do service? |
| 06:47.56 | jasta | chaosvoyager: For one, services offer flexibility across multiple clients whereas intents would not support such a one-to-many arrangement. |
| 06:48.50 | jasta | Second, services offer reliable communication, with meaningful guarantees of message delivery and response. |
| 06:49.22 | muthu | jasta: can you not have many receivers for intents? |
| 06:49.31 | chaosvoyager | muthu: Well, the only reason you need a service is if you're doing some kind of polling or cleanup. |
| 06:50.03 | jasta | muthu: Not sure, actually. I thought Intents were designed to resolve to just one implementor? |
| 06:50.13 | jasta | oh well i guess with broadcastIntent that's not the case? |
| 06:50.18 | muthu | yup |
| 06:50.46 | jasta | Then yes, that would work. However, how would you have multiple clients that are all interested in different things? |
| 06:50.55 | zhobbs | intents should prompt the user if multiple activities can handle the intent |
| 06:51.12 | jasta | Using broadcastIntent, you'd constantly wake them all up whenever something happens, even if only 1 or even none care about the message at all. |
| 06:51.32 | muthu | you have an option to stop the broadcast |
| 06:51.53 | jasta | muthu: How would you have that option if you don't know if the intent is meaningful or not? |
| 06:52.04 | jasta | You'd only know if you got it, looked at it, and discarded it. |
| 06:52.19 | muthu | correct |
| 06:52.29 | jasta | Which means your activity got woken up for nothing. What's the point? |
| 06:52.36 | muthu | agreed |
| 06:52.44 | muthu | might be a queing system |
| 06:53.01 | zhobbs | I think this whole conversation is nonsense....the api's were designed to be used in a specific way |
| 06:53.13 | jasta | Like I said, intents could facilitate this type of interaction in many cases, but why? Why abuse that system just because you don't want to learn how to use services? |
| 06:53.32 | jasta | zhobbs: Totally agreed. chaosvoyager seems to think ignorance is a useful design tool. |
| 06:53.50 | muthu | zhobss: we need to flush out the junk |
| 06:55.48 | jasta | man i wish you could throw exceptions across process boundaries currently. my service would benefit from that design i think. |
| 06:58.44 | chaosvoyager | jasta: There are actually several languages that can do that, only they're called 'continuations'. |
| 06:59.30 | jasta | chaosvoyager: Android is designed to do it as well, it just hasn't implemented it yet. |
| 07:00.58 | chaosvoyager | jasta: Is there a way to set a timeout on a service call? |
| 07:01.22 | jasta | Services are not supposed to block in such a way that would make a timeout meaningful. |
| 07:01.41 | chaosvoyager | But they do on Android. |
| 07:01.47 | jasta | no, they most certainly do not. |
| 07:02.29 | jasta | if your service is to take some length of time to perform a request it should offer a callback mechanism and let the calling client know when it is done. |
| 07:03.13 | jasta | as in the following prototype: void downloadStuff(String uri, IContentReady callback); |
| 07:04.00 | jasta | the client invokes downloadStuff("http://foo", new IContentReady.Stub() { public void yourDownloadIsDone(String data) { /* handle downloaded file */ } }); |
| 07:04.43 | chaosvoyager | In other words, through asynchronous communication. |
| 07:04.51 | jasta | Yes. |
| 07:05.37 | jasta | therefore, your service doesn't block long enough to need a timeout. |
| 07:05.51 | jasta | if you wanted a timeout on that callback, you could set one in your interface, and implement it in your service. |
| 07:06.16 | jasta | that if some timeout elapses and you still dont have the file, invoke IContentReady#yourHosed or something. |
| 07:06.20 | jasta | youre* :) |
| 07:06.24 | chaosvoyager | And that's my point. Treating IPC synchronously only adds confusion. |
| 07:06.50 | jasta | it's no different than TCP. |
| 07:07.06 | jasta | which, last i checked, is a very popular and easy to use protocol :) |
| 07:11.03 | chaosvoyager | Difference is that there has been a lot of effort put into designing TCP stacks. And TCP session negotiation is not simple given how many bad stacks I've encountered. |
| 07:11.38 | jasta | Ok? The OpenBinder is certainly not trivial either. |
| 07:12.25 | chaosvoyager | Yes, I'm readiing up on that now. First link on Google is an interview with Dianne Hackborn :) |
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| 07:18.04 | chaosvoyager | Ultimately, I think Android should make it very clear that ALL communication between processes is ASYNCHRONOUS. At the very least this would eliminate having to write applications which require an additional thread to manage synchronous communication with a service, which in the end is just a long winded and resource consuming way of reimplementing asynchronous communication. |
| 07:18.23 | chaosvoyager | With that, I'm done. |
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| 07:37.56 | sandesh | any one working in maps????????????????? |
| 07:38.08 | zhobbs | anyone have any luck with a sound notification? |
| 07:38.20 | zhobbs | sandesh: I've used maps in some apps |
| 07:40.08 | sandesh | ok see zhobbs i m a beginer developing JOSM application for android and API of josm is in javascript... tell me if u know how to go abt it |
| 07:41.06 | zhobbs | sorry, don't know anything about JOSM |
| 07:41.16 | sandesh | zhobbs: JOSM is java openstreetmap editor |
| 07:41.46 | sandesh | its an editor with javascript API |
| 07:42.39 | zhobbs | so you'll probably want to be drawing overlays onto maps? |
| 07:43.17 | chaosvoyager | I believe that the only Javascript support Android comes with is in WebKit, and I'm not sure how good it is. If you have to port Rhino, it may be a little too big. |
| 07:45.48 | jasta | grr, fucking parcelable bug |
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| 07:57.13 | sandesh | ya Zhobbs |
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| 10:46.07 | acsia | morning |
| 10:47.05 | chaosvoyager | m |
| 10:48.57 | mike1o | zup |
| 11:14.22 | chaosvoyager | How's everyone doing in their projects? |
| 11:18.16 | muthu | doesn't look promising :( |
| 11:19.11 | muthu | layouts and orientation.. killing me |
| 11:20.58 | chaosvoyager | I just learned of a hack to use a single XML layout multiple places. |
| 11:21.28 | chaosvoyager | Why is shit like that even necessary? |
| 11:25.48 | mike1o | chaosvoyager, having a lot problems |
| 11:26.47 | chaosvoyager | Technically, not any more, but I'm trying to help some people with theirs. |
| 11:29.57 | chaosvoyager | The design philosophy seems to be to keep Android simple, but it seems so simple that people end up having to create some ugly hack to implement the features they want. |
| 11:31.27 | muthu | i'm sure its evolving |
| 11:34.35 | acsia | has anyone been able to use android.dalvik.dexfile? |
| 11:34.46 | acsia | to load classes on the fly? |
| 11:36.42 | chaosvoyager | muthu: To be honest, I'm concerned it isn't. I think most of the design decisions have already been made. |
| 11:37.03 | davidw | I'm sure it'll get another kick when it's open sourced |
| 11:37.15 | muthu | chaosvoyager: come on |
| 11:37.20 | muthu | its not even alpha yet |
| 11:37.27 | chaosvoyager | Oh pod...it will FORK like an SOB :P |
| 11:37.48 | muthu | should landscape be the default? |
| 11:38.12 | davidw | acsia, keep us posted if you fool around with that stuff |
| 11:38.19 | muthu | right now the app is disfunctional from a landscape perspective |
| 11:41.12 | davidw | acsia, why do you use /notice or whatever? |
| 11:41.46 | chaosvoyager | muthu: To be fair, were this anyone else but Google, and were they NOT offering money to develop ON it, I would be a lot more patient. Personally, I feel like a dirty trick has been played on me. |
| 11:42.06 | chaosvoyager | It's not all bad however, as phone drivers will be open source. |
| 11:42.13 | acsia | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:42.27 | chaosvoyager | So because of Andriod, cell phones do end up becomming more open. |
| 11:43.03 | acsia | I am suppose to be on vacation and the first thing I did when waking was to connect... |
| 11:43.23 | davidw | chaosvoyager, http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/02/21/android-commercial-meets-open-source |
| 11:45.23 | muthu | acsia: that's the spirit |
| 11:45.48 | muthu | chaosvoyager: yeah lot of unanswered questions about android |
| 11:51.19 | chaosvoyager | davidw: And that middle ground is the problem. All I care about is that it works (commercial PoV), or if it doesn't I can fix it (open source PoV). Currently, I cannot do either. It's the worst of both possible worlds. |
| 11:52.17 | chaosvoyager | But I wouldn't be here if I thought it was a lost cause. |
| 11:53.59 | muthu | hope google can make me the next google ;) |
| 11:54.05 | muthu | ha ha |
| 11:54.24 | chaosvoyager | sure :) |
| 11:54.28 | muthu | s/me/us |
| 11:57.22 | muthu | is that even possible? you build something big on android and then google is your competition.. take that google! |
| 11:57.52 | chaosvoyager | Well, that's sorta what the iPhone did. |
| 11:57.57 | chaosvoyager | In a way. |
| 11:58.50 | muthu | interesting |
| 11:59.04 | chaosvoyager | I don't even own one, but after just a brief test in the store, I actually prefer browsing the web on it. And if Apple controls the access point, they control...well...a lot. |
| 11:59.33 | chaosvoyager | Coincidentally, neither Android nor iPhone will have Flash. |
| 12:01.10 | muthu | is it good or bad? |
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| 12:01.59 | chaosvoyager | Hmm, not sure, just interesting. :) |
| 12:02.54 | chaosvoyager | The only bad thing I can see is all that great Flash content such as games and animation goes to waste. On the other, I know people with an irrational hatred of Flash because of ads. |
| 12:05.07 | muthu | if you let flash in.. they take over |
| 12:05.50 | chaosvoyager | If only Adobe's compeditors knew why :) |
| 12:06.31 | muthu | true |
| 12:08.50 | chaosvoyager | iPhone has Javascript+SVG (or are they still stuck at HTML?), which is actually pretty similar in capability to Flash and Silverlight. There's not much in one you can't do in the other. |
| 12:09.44 | chaosvoyager | It's going to end up being a war of cultures. |
| 12:10.04 | muthu | iphone vs android |
| 12:11.06 | chaosvoyager | If we're talking the cultural makeup of the people behind those platforms, then yes. |
| 12:13.20 | chaosvoyager | That's really the main driver. Technical merit has little to do with it. Certain people use Blackberries, certain people use iPhones, and certain people use Boost Mobile (where you at?). Sidekick is also a culture unto itself, but not as much as those three. |
| 12:14.45 | muthu | yes.. why developer |
| 12:14.55 | muthu | why developer's are attracted to android? |
| 12:15.24 | chaosvoyager | Exactly, the open source angle is a big one. |
| 12:16.21 | muthu | correct |
| 12:17.10 | muthu | funny view doesn't inherit attributes from parents by default |
| 12:18.54 | chaosvoyager | However, the Android culture already exists. It's here, and it doesn't need a phone to grow and sustain itself :) |
| 12:20.57 | chaosvoyager | Blackberry users tend to die when the service is cut :P |
| 12:21.16 | muthu | yeah i heard stories of them |
| 12:21.40 | muthu | addicts ;) |
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| 12:46.01 | chaosvoyager | Innnnnnnteresting... http://www.hikerproject.org/ |
| 12:51.07 | chaosvoyager | Notification Manager, Alarm Manager, OpenBind, this all sounds a bit familiar. |
| 12:52.19 | muthu | looks like android |
| 12:52.29 | muthu | similar design |
| 12:52.35 | chaosvoyager | Yes, yes it does :) |
| 12:54.18 | chaosvoyager | Last news was in June 07, so I'm not precisely certain that it ISN'T a proto-android. |
| 12:54.42 | mike1o | very suspicious |
| 12:56.18 | chaosvoyager | Behold, ancient Neandroithal. |
| 12:56.37 | chaosvoyager | Bah! that sounded better in my head. |
| 12:57.48 | chaosvoyager | And making my search for further connections more difficult is the fact that the words 'android' and 'hiker' has a stron association with the works of a certain Douglas Adams. |
| 13:00.10 | mike1o | how do I hack in to an apk file? |
| 13:00.37 | muthu | mike: jasta had an perl script |
| 13:01.08 | muthu | its in his blog |
| 13:03.33 | mike1o | url? |
| 13:03.59 | muthu | 1 sec |
| 13:04.22 | mike1o | 1 sec has passed :) |
| 13:04.48 | mike1o | just kidding |
| 13:04.49 | muthu | http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/03/tool-to-read-android-binary-xml-files.html |
| 13:04.58 | mike1o | tnx dude |
| 13:05.05 | muthu | cool |
| 13:07.16 | chaosvoyager | This may help too... http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/18/android-package |
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| 13:46.04 | chaosvoyager | Quick question: is it possible to repurpose the menu, home, and back buttons? |
| 13:52.40 | muthu | chaosvoyager: that would be hijacking |
| 13:54.10 | chaosvoyager | Yes. And yet there's a somewhat rude question about it on the dev boards. If it's possible, it would be a disaster. But IS it? |
| 13:55.07 | muthu | currently its not possible |
| 13:55.19 | chaosvoyager | Yae! |
| 13:55.35 | muthu | we'll ask romainguy |
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| 14:31.58 | chaosvoyager | (* reads something *) bwuhahaHAHAHAHA! |
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| 15:44.19 | mike1o | I am inspecting system apk's now |
| 15:45.00 | mike1o | where do system manifests get their stuff from? |
| 15:45.34 | davidw | from Google, presumably |
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| 16:25.41 | jasta | zhobbs: i just lookedat your notification with sound code, it seems kind of obvious why this won't work |
| 16:26.07 | jasta | android.net.Uri's do not specify file paths. |
| 16:26.23 | jasta | unless of course file:///foo/ is supported, which i doubt that it is |
| 16:26.26 | Aetmos | Does anybody happen to know how to increase or decrease the indent of a block of code in Eclipse? |
| 16:26.37 | Aetmos | I'm not used to Eclipse...and can't find it anywhere... |
| 16:26.50 | jasta | Aetmos: Source menu, Shift Left/Right |
| 16:27.08 | Aetmos | Source Menu? |
| 16:27.53 | Aetmos | I don't seem to have a source menu |
| 16:28.48 | jasta | Yes you do |
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| 16:29.27 | Aetmos | jasta: any hints on where it might be? |
| 16:33.40 | Aetmos | File | Edit | Navigate | Search | Project | Run | Window | Help |
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| 16:45.20 | davidw | his underscoreness has arrived |
| 16:46.05 | romainguy__ | oļ |
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| 16:55.03 | Lede | romainguy__: hey |
| 16:55.16 | Lede | romainguy__: how many submissions did you guys get already |
| 16:55.48 | romainguy__ | I have no idea, you should ask jasonchen or morrilld |
| 16:56.06 | Lede | jasonchen !! |
| 16:56.13 | Lede | *highlight* |
| 16:56.28 | Lede | romainguy__: how many do you expect? |
| 16:56.37 | Lede | +500? |
| 16:56.41 | romainguy__ | I have no idea |
| 16:56.47 | Lede | guess? |
| 16:58.46 | davidw | one meeeeelion |
| 16:58.56 | davidw | food shopping time |
| 17:00.10 | Lede | oh me too |
| 17:00.17 | Lede | i just want romainguy__ to say something :P |
| 17:00.35 | romainguy__ | Lede: but I won't :) |
| 17:00.46 | muthu | there has been around 750k sdk downloads |
| 17:01.01 | Lede | waoh |
| 17:01.07 | Lede | so i guess more then 500 |
| 17:01.17 | muthu | way more |
| 17:01.25 | zhobbs | how many good ones though? |
| 17:01.31 | muthu | 50 |
| 17:01.40 | Lede | 50.5 |
| 17:01.47 | Lede | romainguy__: how will you test everything ._o |
| 17:02.07 | romainguy__ | I don't know, I will be busy writing the UI toolkit :) |
| 17:02.21 | Lede | lucky |
| 17:02.22 | romainguy__ | again, the advocates may know the answers to these questions |
| 17:02.26 | romainguy__ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:02.36 | kurzum | ok lets ask em! :) |
| 17:02.36 | Lede | i feel sorry for whoever needs to test everything |
| 17:14.19 | zhobbs | jasta: how do I build a Uri to a specific path/file? |
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| 17:15.36 | zhobbs | jasta: I also tried sticking it in the app's /data/data/<package>/files and then using file://files/file.mp3 and file://file.mp3 and neither worked |
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| 17:21.38 | zhobbs | Ahhh, this works: Uri.fromFile(new File("/system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3")); |
| 17:23.15 | mike1o | davidw, for example in the maps manifest there is a reference to "string/perm_label" but I can't see where they take that |
| 17:24.02 | romainguy__ | mike1o: it's probably in res/values/strings.xml |
| 17:24.41 | mike1o | romainguy, yeah but I can't find that anywhere |
| 17:25.27 | mike1o | im in the adb shell now |
| 17:25.47 | romainguy__ | it must be inside the .apk |
| 17:25.52 | romainguy__ | in the binary XML |
| 17:26.14 | jasta | zhobbs: I don't think you do: I think you would need a content provider serving up that file by implementing openFile for the URL requested. |
| 17:26.35 | zhobbs | jasta: this works Uri.fromFile(new File("/system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3")); |
| 17:26.50 | jasta | ahh, then they must implement file:// |
| 17:26.59 | jasta | Uri.fromFile is probably just a simple convenience. |
| 17:27.06 | zhobbs | yeah, for some reason when I debugged it wouldn't show me the value there |
| 17:27.31 | jasta | but still, that means there is a content provider somewhere honoring that request. |
| 17:30.32 | zhobbs | the underlaying Uri is file:///system/media/audio/ringtones/ringer.mp3 |
| 17:30.44 | jasta | i assumed as much :) |
| 17:35.39 | mike1o | romainguy__, I thought that too... i just unzipped the apk file but it ain't there... |
| 17:37.53 | muthu | zhobbs: can you store in raw and play |
| 17:38.12 | jasta | mike1o: it's in res/values/strings.xml |
| 17:38.39 | muthu | jasta: how do you play the media in the "raw" folder? |
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| 17:38.52 | zhobbs | muthu: dunno, you would have to be able to play it from it's resid |
| 17:39.04 | jasta | a few ways... |
| 17:39.32 | zhobbs | might have to implement a provider right? |
| 17:40.35 | jasta | no, don't raw resources still have a resource id? R.raw.something? |
| 17:40.48 | jasta | with htat, you could use MediaPlayer.create(this, R.raw...) for example |
| 17:40.51 | muthu | yeah R.raw |
| 17:40.55 | muthu | that gives inputstream |
| 17:41.00 | muthu | what's the filepath though? |
| 17:41.19 | zhobbs | yeah, don't think you can get Uri from raw |
| 17:41.31 | jasta | i dont think you can either, since they aren't really files |
| 17:41.42 | muthu | right.. so need to get input stream |
| 17:41.50 | muthu | then save in tmp, and play |
| 17:41.51 | romainguy__ | you can always put them in the assets/ directory |
| 17:42.04 | muthu | then how do i refer? |
| 17:42.09 | jasta | muthu: I think MediaPlayer.create from a raw resource should work. |
| 17:42.23 | mike1o | jasta, romainguy http://paste.debian.net/50598 |
| 17:42.26 | romainguy__ | muthu: using the AssetsManager |
| 17:42.35 | muthu | oh ok |
| 17:43.24 | muthu | jasta: i'm using the video view.. probably that method exists. i'll check |
| 17:43.34 | zhobbs | yeah, you can prob play with MediaPlayer...but sometimes you want to play sounds via NotificationManager so they don't get outputted through the headphones, etc |
| 17:43.50 | mike1o | jasta, no res/values/strings.xml there |
| 17:52.22 | jasta | zhobbs: NotificationManager plays sounds different than MediaPlayer? |
| 17:52.30 | mike1o | the unfolded mysteries of the android |
| 17:52.57 | jasta | btw, i just want to say that i hope Android phones have standard headphone jacks. I hate those silly adapters you have to buy for most smartphones :) |
| 17:53.02 | zhobbs | jasta: I would assume so...I would think even if headphones are plugged in notification would alert out loud instead of through headphones |
| 17:53.16 | zhobbs | used for alarm clocks, reminders, etc |
| 17:53.28 | jasta | zhobbs: Are you sure? Because then you wouldn't hear it while on the phone or listening to music? |
| 17:53.50 | mike1o | jasta, totally agree with you on this one... very hard to dee jay with those |
| 17:54.25 | zhobbs | jasta: def not sure, just an assumption |
| 17:55.30 | zhobbs | I would think that's how the iphone works, if you have the headphones plugged in and the alarm clock goes off it doesn't alarm through the headphones right? |
| 17:59.43 | mike1o | could it be in classes.dex? :) |
| 18:01.46 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: it does play sounds through the headphones |
| 18:01.55 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: I doubt I could hear the notifications otherwise |
| 18:02.08 | zhobbs | romainguy_: does it play through both? |
| 18:02.14 | romainguy_ | just the headphones |
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| 18:03.25 | zhobbs | that would piss me off...I use my phone as my alarm clock and I slept through work cause I forgot to unplug headphones that would suck |
| 18:03.46 | romainguy_ | think about other situations |
| 18:03.52 | romainguy_ | for instance when I'm in the shuttle in the morning |
| 18:04.14 | romainguy_ | when there's someone sleeping next to me |
| 18:04.22 | jasta | zhobbs: An alarm clock application could be programmed more pragmatically, however. |
| 18:04.22 | romainguy_ | I'm glad my notifications are played through my headphones |
| 18:04.35 | zhobbs | true |
| 18:04.50 | zhobbs | jasta: what you mean? |
| 18:04.52 | jasta | That is, an alarm clock, if still going off 20 minutes later, could switch to become louder and start sending output to all speakers |
| 18:05.11 | zhobbs | not sure if we'll have control over what speakers we output to |
| 18:05.14 | jasta | Assuming the Android platform permits this level of flexibility |
| 18:05.18 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 18:05.32 | jasta | Well, perhaps we should mention that as a feature request. |
| 18:05.43 | jasta | It does make a lot of sense for an alarm app to do everything it can to get more and more annoying. |
| 18:05.49 | zhobbs | yep |
| 18:05.50 | jasta | until it is shut off |
| 18:06.30 | jasta | my cell phone alarm is basically unusably stupid. it plays some annoying sound for about 20 seconds then shuts off indefinitely. |
| 18:06.51 | jasta | but displays a stupid reminder on screen |
| 18:07.15 | jasta | so if i knock it off my bed or something i basically miss work :) |
| 18:07.31 | zhobbs | though the audio circuit might not allow software to determine if using speakers/headphone |
| 18:07.31 | jasta | whereas if it just kept playing for minutes or hours, i would eventually notice and wake up |
| 18:07.54 | jasta | zhobbs: Perhaps not, but that is a good thing to get someone thinking about now. |
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| 18:08.17 | jasta | i recommend posting a feature enhancement issue. |
| 18:08.59 | zhobbs | jasta: I know on my laptop the headphone jack has a switch built into it to turn off the speaker when headphones present |
| 18:09.24 | zhobbs | I know cause it's broken and it won't ever let my speakers work !! (dell sucks!) |
| 18:10.06 | muthu | mostly when you switch on the headphones, the speakers shut off |
| 18:20.33 | jasta | i hope someone at google is listening btw ;) |
| 18:20.39 | jasta | alarm applications NEED TO BE ANNOYING :) |
| 18:21.33 | jasta | i can't figure out why alarm applications for phones are not written like actual alarm clocks. i've never tested it, but i'm pretty sure my old fashioned clock radio will shut off once it goes on. |
| 18:21.39 | jasta | on its own, i mean. |
| 18:22.02 | jasta | and will not*, damn, i munged that sentence :) |
| 18:24.10 | muthu | is there a flowlayout? |
| 18:24.39 | muthu | jasta: how do you deal with portrait/landscape neutral layouts? |
| 18:25.36 | romainguy_ | muthu: no flow layout |
| 18:26.00 | muthu | you folks are making it difficult on us |
| 18:26.14 | muthu | ;) |
| 18:26.18 | romainguy_ | ? |
| 18:26.41 | muthu | flowlayout would have made our jobs easier |
| 18:26.52 | romainguy_ | I doubt it |
| 18:27.14 | muthu | how do i do a neutral skin layout? |
| 18:27.23 | romainguy_ | with any layout |
| 18:27.25 | romainguy_ | or better |
| 18:27.29 | romainguy_ | you create two different layouts |
| 18:27.44 | muthu | and how to switch? |
| 18:28.42 | muthu | how to know which skin is running? |
| 18:28.51 | romainguy_ | muthu: it switches automatically if you put them in layout-port and layout-land |
| 18:29.06 | jasta | muthu: the res/ directory structure will handle localization and layout orientations for you. |
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| 18:29.20 | muthu | ah ah |
| 18:29.25 | muthu | hmm lot to learn |
| 18:29.29 | jasta | just like you can do res/values-en/strings.xml res/values-es/strings.xml, etc. |
| 18:29.50 | jasta | romainguy_: does "finger" mean that it's a touch screen? |
| 18:30.23 | jasta | muthu: you can also ahve different images in res/drawable the same way. |
| 18:30.34 | muthu | is it all backed up by theme? |
| 18:30.46 | jasta | not by theme, but by screen properties. |
| 18:30.57 | muthu | any examples? |
| 18:31.01 | romainguy_ | oh |
| 18:31.05 | romainguy_ | iPhone gets Exchange support |
| 18:31.07 | jasta | your eally dont need an example. |
| 18:31.18 | muthu | ok.. back to docs then |
| 18:31.32 | jasta | muthu: just place your portrait layouts in layout-port and your landscape layouts in layout-land. common layouts still in layout. |
| 18:31.43 | muthu | ok great |
| 18:31.58 | jasta | so you could have layout-land/some_list.xml layout-port/some_list.xml layout/some_list_item.xml |
| 18:32.04 | muthu | got it |
| 18:32.18 | jasta | romainguy_: really? Will Android be licensing that? :) |
| 18:32.59 | fcarvalho | romainguy, that's true .. http://unlimitededition.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/iphone-enterprise-support-announced/ |
| 18:33.39 | muthu | that's a great move |
| 18:35.25 | jasta | but that commercial products using the code will have to pay royalties. I wonder if we could introduce support to Android's PIM system and then get the OHA to foot the bill :) |
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| 18:47.18 | davidw | oh...finally. I can't wait to finish this crap off. Insurance company code written in 2001 :-((( |
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| 19:20.35 | zhobbs | iPhone SDK available today |
| 19:21.15 | Bonkers | apps to users not until june though |
| 19:22.03 | zhobbs | looks like you might have to have a mac to run the emulator? |
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| 19:23.11 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: where do you see that? |
| 19:24.12 | Bonkers | http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/06/live-from-apples-iphone-press-conference/ |
| 19:24.52 | zhobbs | Just like normal Mac applications, developers can use Xcode for their project -- a coding environment bundled with every copy of OS X. In addition to traditional Xcode tools there's a new feature called iPhone Simulator which acts as a full-on iPhone emulator for testing out apps without destroying your device. |
| 19:25.08 | zhobbs | also, it costs $99 to be cool enough to download SDK |
| 19:26.02 | Bonkers | well, that gets you app hosting also |
| 19:26.31 | zhobbs | sourceforge or google code is free |
| 19:26.40 | davidw | yeah, that's not a bad deal... they take care of all the 'store' crap for you |
| 19:27.22 | Bonkers | right, for source hosting, this is app distribution with payment if you so choose to the masses with an icon right on their home screen |
| 19:27.59 | zhobbs | yeah, but I can't even download the SDK without paying |
| 19:28.27 | zhobbs | I'd understand pay to get listed in the store |
| 19:28.44 | Bonkers | I bet it'll be free in the not so far future |
| 19:29.15 | zhobbs | well...I don't have a mac so doesn't matter |
| 19:30.21 | Bonkers | looks like the $99 is mostly for a certificate that you have to sign your apps with, that way they can revoke certs from malicious developers |
| 19:30.49 | muthu | now android needs to step up |
| 19:30.53 | muthu | it will be fun! |
| 19:33.34 | Bonkers | SDK is free actually already |
| 19:35.20 | Bonkers | all you need is a free apple dev account |
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| 19:35.48 | zhobbs | what is "ADC", it says $99 for ADC |
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| 19:41.09 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: Apple Developer Connection |
| 19:42.30 | zhobbs | There's $100E6 venture capital put aside for iPhone related companies |
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| 19:48.54 | Aetmos | are there any new apps in iTUnes yet? |
| 19:50.09 | Aetmos | Well, developer.apple.com seems to be getting slammed |
| 19:50.29 | Aetmos | http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/ doesn't even come up... |
| 19:52.56 | davidw | zhobbs, that sounds kind of empty to me |
| 19:52.57 | Aetmos | Oh, nevermind. I guess we're not getting new software until "Late June" ;-( |
| 19:53.10 | Aetmos | http://www.macworld.com/article/132402/2008/03/appstore.html |
| 19:53.16 | Aetmos | The SDK is free, though |
| 19:53.17 | davidw | no one just 'parks' that much money hoping companies materialize |
| 19:55.05 | Aetmos | I wonder if it will run on my old iBook |
| 19:58.09 | Aetmos | Well, I'm working with the Android SDK right now, but I have an iPod touch that I'd love some new apps/games for |
| 19:58.29 | Lede | ipod touch is nice |
| 19:58.47 | Aetmos | By the time they get anything out, iTouch will be old news... |
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| 20:10.02 | f00f- | Aetmos: install linux on it |
| 20:10.27 | Aetmos | Yeah, I've considered jailbreaking it...but I figured I could wait until the February SDK |
| 20:10.31 | Aetmos | Though now... |
| 20:10.36 | Aetmos | Wait 'til June? |
| 20:10.43 | Aetmos | Pfft |
| 20:13.03 | Aetmos | Is there any way to securely send a password to a server in Android? |
| 20:13.37 | davidw | Aetmos, https, if nothing else |
| 20:13.58 | Aetmos | That's true. No hash algorithms built in, though? MD5 or SHA1? |
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| 20:17.35 | f00f- | even CRAM over unencrypted channels works |
| 20:17.55 | f00f- | https is heavy for mobile |
| 20:17.58 | jasta | Aetmos: I'm sure it has digest algorithms. |
| 20:18.09 | zhobbs | It does |
| 20:18.36 | zhobbs | jasta: what's the Unicode::String perl module called in ubuntu? |
| 20:18.43 | jasta | libunicode-string-perl |
| 20:18.55 | jasta | Aetmos: look at java.security.MessageDigest |
| 20:19.05 | jasta | i'm pretty certain that is implemented in Android |
| 20:19.07 | Aetmos | jasta: Will do. THanks |
| 20:19.19 | zhobbs | transmitting MD5 password doesn't mean secure though |
| 20:19.32 | Aetmos | True |
| 20:20.17 | f00f- | that's why you need CRAM |
| 20:20.19 | f00f- | with replay protection |
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| 20:20.43 | f00f- | CRAM-MD5 or CRAM-insert-your-favorite-digest-algo-here |
| 20:20.56 | Aetmos | Got it. Thanks |
| 20:21.11 | f00f- | if Android doesn't implement it, check out the Bouncy Castle crypto APi's |
| 20:21.34 | f00f- | i've used them in a J2ME app |
| 20:21.36 | zhobbs | jasta: what command you using to recursively parse those XML files with axml2xml? |
| 20:21.46 | jasta | i did a combination of things |
| 20:22.39 | jasta | adb shell ls /system/*.apk | while read a; do adb pull $a .; done |
| 20:22.43 | jasta | to get all the apk files |
| 20:22.47 | zhobbs | k |
| 20:22.48 | jasta | then i unzipped them in their own folders with another script |
| 20:23.36 | jasta | then i just did find -type f -name "*.xml" | while read a; do ./axml2xml.pl "$a" > "$a".out; done |
| 20:23.39 | jasta | etc, you get the point :) |
| 20:23.44 | zhobbs | k |
| 20:25.28 | zhobbs | I never use that while read a; do [...], that's handy |
| 20:26.08 | jasta | you could also do find -type f -name "*.xml" -print0 | xargs -l -i foo or find -type f -name "*.xml" -exec foo {} \; |
| 20:26.31 | jasta | but neither of those is very nice for piping the output of each invocation somewhere. |
| 20:27.22 | jasta | err i meant xargs -0 -l -i :) |
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| 20:31.14 | f00f- | dont use print0 :) |
| 20:36.49 | jasta | zhobbs: one very weird thing i encountreed while figuring out this binary XML format is that everything is in little endian, but aren't ARM processors big endian? |
| 20:37.00 | jasta | So they claim it's all for efficiency and then they require a byte swap? |
| 20:37.06 | jasta | That's stupid |
| 20:37.20 | jasta | f00f-: Why not? |
| 20:38.40 | f00f- | why use it |
| 20:38.56 | jasta | because xargs doesn't operate on newlines, it operates on words |
| 20:42.58 | f00f- | xargs cat will do it nicely |
| 20:43.01 | f00f- | but i cant read anyone's mind |
| 20:43.06 | f00f- | so i'll just be quiet |
| 20:43.21 | jasta | what? no it won't. |
| 20:44.19 | jasta | f00f-: xargs operates on words, not lines. it doesn't matter what command you specify. |
| 20:44.43 | jasta | find ... | xargs ... without -print0 and -print will cause files with spaces to fail miserably. |
| 20:44.52 | jasta | err -print0 and -0 :) |
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| 21:50.13 | jasta | i just had the most infuriating conversation of my entire life |
| 21:50.37 | jasta | if i wasn't on a teleconference i probably would have reached across the table and choked the guy i was talking to |
| 21:54.38 | jasta | some retard engineering director that probably hasn't written code since his hello world college days 15 years ago. |
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| 22:05.56 | davidw | "The social dynamics of the net are a direct consequence of the fact that nobody has yet developed a Remote Strangulation Protocol." - Larry Wall |
| 22:08.11 | zhobbs | that's my idea for the ADC |
| 22:08.55 | jasta | that reminds me of a bash.org quote |
| 22:09.16 | Aetmos | Not true! http://search.cpan.org/~tstanley/Acme-Remote-Strangulation-Protocol-0.03/ |
| 22:10.26 | Aetmos | You can find anything in CPAN |
| 22:12.16 | davidw | Aetmos, well, it probably requires hardware that most people don't install |
| 22:13.13 | Aetmos | You don't have a plug-n-play remote strangulation device installed? |
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| 22:22.16 | Aetmos | Does anybody happen to know what the transparent EditText states are used for/ |
| 22:22.48 | Aetmos | (imagine that ended with a "?" rather than a "/") |
| 22:23.04 | romainguy_ | a view shown as translucent is disabled |
| 22:23.15 | Aetmos | ah |
| 22:23.16 | Aetmos | thanks |
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| 23:10.12 | davidw | anyone tried to play .wav files from the resources? |
| 23:23.30 | chaosvoyager | No, will it be painful to try? |
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