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| 01:42.10 | dz0004455 | hey, i have 1 question, how possible would it be to port existing linux apps in c++ or c to android? |
| 01:42.50 | jasta | well, that depends on how they were written |
| 01:43.04 | jasta | if you can easily separate the UI from the portable parts, you could just compile the C straight onto Android |
| 01:43.12 | jasta | then bind the UI parts with Java and JNI |
| 01:43.16 | dz0004455 | what about command line stuff |
| 01:43.33 | jasta | command-line stuff you could just build now, but of course Android currently has no shell available on the phone interface. |
| 01:43.34 | dz0004455 | would adding a bash shell of busybox bloat it too much>=? |
| 01:44.00 | jasta | i doubt something like that would be put onto a real handset as distributed by one of the major manufacturers, but sure, you could do that yourself. |
| 01:44.32 | dz0004455 | oo goody, mabi, when the real thing comes out I will do this |
| 01:44.48 | dz0004455 | I really want something that I could do that w/, thanks |
| 01:44.50 | dz0004455 | bibi |
| 01:47.06 | living_sword | http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572 |
| 02:27.04 | dmoffett_ | so that for real? |
| 02:27.16 | dmoffett_ | if so that really @%$#@$#% sucks. |
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| 02:51.18 | romainguy | yo |
| 02:52.01 | jerkface03 | sup |
| 02:57.09 | romainguy | tired :) |
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| 03:45.30 | michaelnovakjr | this sdk business is bull |
| 03:51.01 | dmoffett_ | Is sdk rumour true? |
| 03:51.40 | michaelnovakjr | seems like it |
| 03:51.49 | michaelnovakjr | if so my development stops shere |
| 03:52.04 | michaelnovakjr | back to my linux projects, until july |
| 03:52.18 | dmoffett_ | Sure makes me angry if it is true. |
| 03:52.37 | dmoffett_ | My motivation would go way down and I would consider dropping Android completely. |
| 03:53.57 | michaelnovakjr | same here |
| 03:55.08 | michaelnovakjr | very disappointing |
| 03:55.24 | dmoffett_ | Hopefully it is not true. |
| 03:57.36 | michaelnovakjr | its been too long since the last sdk |
| 04:00.09 | dmoffett_ | A mail arrived added today from a bug I submitted to the Android bug list a month or two ago. |
| 04:01.18 | michaelnovakjr | damn |
| 04:01.19 | dmoffett_ | The bug was accepted so maybe they are cranking for the next sdk release. |
| 04:17.08 | romainguy__ | <PROTECTED> |
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| 04:19.32 | romainguy | re |
| 04:20.29 | dmoffett_ | romainguy: Thank you, I guess you can't comment on the sdk rumor? |
| 04:22.13 | romainguy | no I can't |
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| 04:45.21 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: i can't believe that all this is happening... |
| 04:48.36 | muthu | jasta: what's happening? |
| 04:49.49 | jasta | muthu: that Google might not be making an SDK release to the general public for "several months". |
| 04:50.06 | muthu | hmm.. yeah that sucks |
| 04:50.16 | jasta | effectively denying ADC losers from launching their applications with Android handsets. |
| 04:50.29 | muthu | right, i'm a bit surprised too |
| 04:50.52 | jasta | i am going to cry foul at I/O. what is the point of this ruse? why are they even having Android sessions at I/O? |
| 04:52.02 | jasta | it's as though they revoked their release of Android in the first place. |
| 04:52.02 | muthu | i know |
| 04:52.17 | muthu | it should be released to the public |
| 04:52.22 | muthu | not sure what goog plan is |
| 04:52.23 | jasta | "oops, nevermind, sorry" |
| 04:53.39 | michaelnovakjr | jasta, this is crap |
| 04:53.48 | michaelnovakjr | i am extremely fed up with this process |
| 04:54.28 | jasta | Agreed. |
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| 04:56.37 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: what a waste of our time. |
| 04:56.41 | michaelnovakjr | yep |
| 04:56.50 | jasta | I wish I'd never even touched this shit. |
| 04:57.16 | michaelnovakjr | i starting on the linux projects i suspended before working with android |
| 04:57.19 | michaelnovakjr | i am * |
| 04:57.53 | jasta | this is way more disappointment than i can handle. |
| 04:58.08 | michaelnovakjr | so much for the O in OHA |
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| 04:59.16 | muthu | this is pad publicity for goog |
| 04:59.30 | jasta | I'm very glad I'm going to I/O now. I feel like I have a mission to explain to developers just now getting a taste for Android that Google has effectively canceled their release of the platform. |
| 05:00.01 | jasta | The current SDK is irrelevant, and with no hope of updates it should be ignored completely. |
| 05:00.28 | muthu | guess there will be a lot of talk about this in IO |
| 05:00.36 | michaelnovakjr | emphasis on completely ignored |
| 05:02.16 | jasta | what seems odd to me is that they have now fused the ADC with the development of the platform in general |
| 05:04.30 | michaelnovakjr | like giving winners funding wasn't enough |
| 05:04.55 | jasta | yeah, now they are actively penalizing the losers. |
| 05:04.57 | muthu | what's goog take on this? |
| 05:04.58 | jasta | not what i'd expect. |
| 05:05.04 | jasta | muthu: So far we have seen nothing official from Google. |
| 05:05.09 | muthu | ok |
| 05:05.23 | jasta | So their take is probably that they are generally embarrassed to make an announcement explaining the reality of this situation. |
| 05:05.41 | michaelnovakjr | :) not surprised |
| 05:06.04 | jasta | It would obviously be hard to spin this as a positive. |
| 05:06.31 | michaelnovakjr | yep |
| 05:06.42 | jasta | What's especially stupid is that the apps who otherwise were close to the win now cannot launch their apps to promote the platform? Who does that serve!? |
| 05:06.50 | michaelnovakjr | too many bugs for a public release?? |
| 05:07.02 | jasta | "The winners are the consumers." Uhh, ? |
| 05:07.19 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: oh please, that is just a cover up. their current SDK has tons of bugs. |
| 05:07.26 | michaelnovakjr | yep |
| 05:07.26 | jasta | and they won't even so much as release bug fixes to us? |
| 05:07.42 | jasta | it's like the Google engineers have not explained to their marketing dept that there is such a thing as branching. |
| 05:07.45 | michaelnovakjr | something strange is going on |
| 05:08.16 | jasta | they could, instead, just fix bugs in the public branch and demonstrate the new APIs without releasing otherwise sensitive previews of the platform |
| 05:08.34 | jasta | i really wish 1 of the 50 winners would be wise enough to cry foul and refuse to sign the NDA. |
| 05:08.35 | michaelnovakjr | could the project be failing a slow and painful death? |
| 05:09.18 | jasta | assuming that the platform will ever be released fully open source, i can't wait for the community to steal the project from Google. |
| 05:09.22 | jasta | they do not deserve to be at the helm. |
| 05:10.15 | michaelnovakjr | the community should just branch |
| 05:10.34 | jasta | that's what i am talking about. that's how you take control of a project that is run by monkeys |
| 05:10.53 | michaelnovakjr | we've already got the kernel |
| 05:11.00 | jasta | the kernel isn't much ;) |
| 05:11.06 | jasta | most of the code is in the Java middleware |
| 05:11.17 | michaelnovakjr | true, but the kernel is a starting point |
| 05:11.30 | michaelnovakjr | plus why use java? c is what i am talking about! |
| 05:11.44 | michaelnovakjr | programming in c, loose the java overhead |
| 05:12.07 | jasta | i'm pretty sure someone will eventually bind all these so that native C developmernt is possible and well supported |
| 05:12.18 | jasta | though i do like writing in Java ;) |
| 05:12.38 | michaelnovakjr | i dont mind java either, but if i had the choice i wouldn't mind C |
| 05:14.00 | jasta | i really don't know what to do with myself |
| 05:14.13 | jasta | i am so disillusioned |
| 05:14.28 | romainguy___ | jasta: that's what i am talking about. that's how you take control of a project that is run by monkeys << thanks, I guess |
| 05:14.39 | jasta | it isn't run by you, silly. |
| 05:15.09 | jasta | but please do appreciate that i feel like i have wasted the last 5 months of my life. |
| 05:15.32 | romainguy___ | you haven't wasted anything |
| 05:15.43 | romainguy___ | the current SDK is far from irrelevant |
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| 05:16.09 | jasta | except that it contains numerous bugs that prevent my project from gracefully moving forward? |
| 05:16.21 | jasta | and the promise of massive API disruptions. |
| 05:16.55 | jasta | with that gap to likely only widen to a canyon by the time we actually get something released to the public. |
| 05:17.14 | jasta | my app has now also been put at a great disadvantage to compete with any ADC winners. |
| 05:20.59 | jasta | i do not see this situation as a minor setback. i see it as a reason to reject the platform and my project until such time that Google has proven their good faith to the community. |
| 05:22.14 | jasta | i have renewed suspicion that we will see other curve balls coming, though. such as only partially revealed source code, massive delays of the product launch, crippling carrier restrictions, etc. |
| 05:23.04 | romainguy___ | don't you think that we don't want any of these things to happen? |
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| 05:24.56 | jasta | i actually am unsure what Google's long term strategy is. that's a big part of the problem here. |
| 05:25.29 | jasta | i, as a member of the community supporting Android, feel as though i have been strung along to further only the OHA's long term interests, at direct opposition to my own. |
| 05:25.51 | jasta | i cannot continue with the faith that my reasonable assumptions will be supported from the other side of the table. |
| 05:26.31 | jasta | especially with the inexcusable lack of communication the OHA and Google has demonstrated thus far. |
| 05:29.17 | muthu | hope goog gets it right |
| 05:29.22 | muthu | and keep the developers happy |
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| 07:22.21 | cutmasta | mornini |
| 07:22.24 | cutmasta | ;) |
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| 09:00.09 | jasta | yawn |
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| 09:28.04 | jasta | man, May really sucked :) |
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| 09:49.33 | trigatch4 | jasta: you the only one up? |
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| 10:17.38 | davidw | jasta, no it didn't |
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| 11:35.15 | volmarias | jasta: completeness was a category. I don't remember what he got in that. |
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| 12:23.01 | Dougie187 | Good Morning |
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| 12:53.49 | jasta | volmarias: Polish And Appeal, you mean? Completeness was most certainly not a category. |
| 12:59.58 | Dougie187 | you guys talking about judging criteria again? |
| 13:01.17 | jasta | man, what a clusterfuck |
| 13:01.23 | Dougie187 | ? |
| 13:02.05 | jasta | hopefully i can get dan to confirm all these rumors |
| 13:02.18 | Dougie187 | what rumors? |
| 13:02.20 | jasta | unbelievable that Google has not officially said anything |
| 13:02.50 | jasta | Dougie187: you haven't heard? Google is giving SDK updates only to ADC winners. |
| 13:02.59 | Dougie187 | no i didnt hear that. |
| 13:03.02 | jasta | with the promise of a public SDK release "in several months" |
| 13:03.05 | Dougie187 | why the hell would they do that? |
| 13:03.17 | jasta | my guess is that "in several months" means "when handsets are available". |
| 13:03.29 | Dougie187 | thats gay |
| 13:03.38 | jasta | so, basically, if you didn't win the ADC: get lost. |
| 13:04.27 | jasta | and now Google I/O is coming up next week, with all these "developer sessions" on Android. what a joke, right? why would anyone pick up Android now. |
| 13:04.49 | volmarias | jasta: I don't remember, honestly. |
| 13:04.57 | volmarias | He pasted the email to me in an im window a while back. |
| 13:05.10 | volmarias | he scored surprisingly high considering what he submitted, in my opinion |
| 13:05.40 | volmarias | this either means that the judges were lenient, or 1/3 of the submissions were hideous |
| 13:05.51 | jasta | i bet 1/3 of them were hideous |
| 13:05.54 | Dougie187 | have any of the adc winners confirmed they got SDK updates? |
| 13:06.06 | jasta | Dougie187: See helloandroid.com for at least Zach's take on it. |
| 13:06.29 | jasta | I so far have not been able t oconfirm this, so I am not quite sure what to think yet. |
| 13:06.48 | jasta | None of the other winners have seemed to deny it, though |
| 13:07.25 | jasta | most unbelievable of all is that Google has remained silent about this. this must have been part of their plan all along. |
| 13:07.35 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 13:07.39 | Dougie187 | its totally gay if they do that |
| 13:07.51 | volmarias | totally gaaaay |
| 13:09.51 | jasta | I can't imagine what sort of retard they have running this show that would make this decision without realizing what a huge impact this would have on reception |
| 13:10.35 | jasta | I was downright depressed last night that I have spent so much time trying to support this platform. |
| 13:10.39 | volmarias | the same retards that don't want buggy/incomplete features to be the public image of android. |
| 13:11.07 | volmarias | android isn't for F/OSS developers, it's for selling handsets |
| 13:11.09 | jasta | volmarias: you actually believe that line? lol. take a look around, all of the SDK releases have been buggy and incomplete. |
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| 13:11.15 | volmarias | and for selling google apps |
| 13:11.26 | volmarias | yes, but with stated known limitations. |
| 13:11.27 | davidw | jasta, maybe they don't want to get a reputation for it |
| 13:11.37 | jasta | in fact, that's exactly why this is so bad. they need to fucking fix the bugs in the current SDK. |
| 13:11.38 | volmarias | i.e. "if there's no documentatino, don't expect it to work" |
| 13:11.50 | davidw | sooner or later they're going to have to start running it like an open source project, but that won't be until the phones come out |
| 13:11.54 | volmarias | compared to some other platforms, this isn't that bad. |
| 13:11.56 | davidw | I'll wait to slam them until then:-) |
| 13:12.32 | jasta | volmarias: How can you even say that? They have dangled this in front of us to encourage aggressive development leading up to the ADC and have now revoked our ability to continue. |
| 13:12.51 | volmarias | jasta: not to be cruel, but from their point of view they already have all the good people they need. |
| 13:13.06 | jasta | You mean none? |
| 13:13.09 | volmarias | I'm sure they're going to alienate some developers |
| 13:13.27 | volmarias | but they also have a large group of people who have shown very clear commitment to the platform to pour over their code aggressively and secretly |
| 13:14.03 | jasta | Up until now, it seems that Google's overall strategy was to alienate no one. They released a cross platform SDK with lots of code samples, documnetation, etc. An active community where engineers and dev advocates would respond meaningfully, a public issue tracker, etc. |
| 13:14.07 | Dougie187 | so... winners have to sign a NDA to get the new SDK? |
| 13:14.10 | jasta | It seemed like they were very much so trying to embrace developers. |
| 13:14.18 | Dougie187 | And if they dont sign they dont get the new SDK but can they still win? |
| 13:14.31 | jasta | Dougie187: According to that e-mail: no. |
| 13:14.46 | jasta | Which, to me, seems like a conflict of the original terms of the challenge, but I have not read over them with those glasses on just yet. |
| 13:15.09 | Dougie187 | well you might try to save them just so you get a chance. |
| 13:15.15 | Dougie187 | unless you got a copy from before the first round |
| 13:15.17 | jasta | The bottom line is that this entire process since November has seemed like an elaborate trick. |
| 13:15.30 | jasta | Or, it seems like that now I should say. |
| 13:15.53 | Dougie187 | well you have about 2-3 hours until they get in |
| 13:16.09 | volmarias | yes |
| 13:16.11 | volmarias | google has tricked you |
| 13:17.54 | davidw | http://mediacenter.corriere.it/MediaCenter/action/player?uuid=075a177c-264c-11dd-8ccd-00144f02aabc |
| 13:17.55 | Dougie187 | that would be totally gay if they did that though. |
| 13:17.59 | jasta | Android already has a lot of bad press, most of it I thought was undeserved, but I'll be happy to smear the platform if this turns out to be true. The platform deserves to fail if this is really how they are going to run it. |
| 13:18.04 | davidw | some guy eggs ballmer |
| 13:18.11 | Dougie187 | heh yeah |
| 13:18.14 | Dougie187 | its pretty funny |
| 13:18.16 | Dougie187 | i saw that earlier |
| 13:18.31 | jasta | Bill Gates had a pie thrown at him once |
| 13:18.33 | Dougie187 | true that |
| 13:18.58 | Dougie187 | they still dont have the list of judges up |
| 13:19.21 | davidw | jasta, that was actually a lot funnier |
| 13:19.28 | davidw | the pie guys got a lot of people |
| 13:20.06 | jasta | Dougie187: they don't? I saw one... |
| 13:20.29 | Dougie187 | " Judges |
| 13:20.29 | Dougie187 | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:20.29 | Dougie187 | Once we have the list of participating judges finalized, we will post it here. Keep watching this space! " |
| 13:21.21 | jasta | oh, they jus tposted it elsewhere |
| 13:21.40 | jasta | on some android-developers blogpost they mention the list |
| 13:21.42 | jasta | and point to it |
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| 13:24.26 | Dougie187 | ask muthu |
| 13:24.28 | Dougie187 | he might confirm |
| 13:24.30 | jasta | muthu: Can you confirm that you received an e-mail asking you to sign an NDA to get access to the new SDK? |
| 13:24.40 | muthu | yes |
| 13:25.00 | volmarias | muthu, I hear you flew the penis that assaulted kasperov in russia. confirm/deny |
| 13:25.11 | muthu | negative |
| 13:25.18 | jasta | Have you received any additional clarification suggesting that a public release will not be made even after the ADC is over? |
| 13:25.20 | volmarias | that is not deny, I will take that to mean "confirm" |
| 13:25.36 | muthu | haha |
| 13:25.45 | muthu | jasta: that i don't know |
| 13:26.15 | volmarias | muthu: can you confirm that birds suddenly appear whenever you are near? |
| 13:26.34 | muthu | +1 |
| 13:27.01 | jasta | lol |
| 13:27.13 | muthu | haha |
| 13:27.15 | jasta | "[...] But NDAs and open source go togehter like oil and flamethrowers." |
| 13:27.16 | muthu | cheer up dudes |
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| 13:27.47 | jasta | i don't know that that's a good analogy, because oil and flamethrowers sounds like a recipe for good fun. |
| 13:27.56 | Dougie187 | too late muthu |
| 13:28.03 | volmarias | and one hell of a great sexual encounter |
| 13:31.18 | jasta | well anyway |
| 13:31.24 | jasta | time to get ready for work |
| 13:31.28 | Dougie187 | just wait for morrildl and romain to come in |
| 13:31.36 | jasta | romain won't confirm anything. he's french. |
| 13:31.43 | jasta | and morrildl might just avoid us all today ;) |
| 13:31.58 | Dougie187 | when did they get the email? |
| 13:32.30 | jasta | Dougie187: yesterday afternoon, PST. |
| 13:32.45 | jasta | Dan was here when we were all starting to figure it out |
| 13:32.48 | jasta | and he disappeared :) |
| 13:32.55 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 13:33.07 | Dougie187 | i should get my laptop today. |
| 13:33.09 | Dougie187 | im pumped |
| 13:33.27 | Dougie187 | dan should get on in about 2 hours though |
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| 13:44.54 | Dougie187 | hey jasta, i would assume since they have to sign and NDA we wont get the SDK. |
| 13:45.01 | Dougie187 | an* |
| 13:47.26 | jasta | zach claims a source at google confirmed exactly that |
| 13:47.33 | jasta | that we get squat for "several months' |
| 13:47.47 | jasta | which basically means we all get to pack up and go home |
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| 13:47.56 | jasta | fuck this whole stupid thing |
| 13:48.36 | davidw | anyone know how to get OpenOffice to display the slide number on all slides? |
| 13:49.31 | davidw | got it, never mind |
| 13:55.07 | ligi | WTF? |
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| 13:55.23 | davidw | ligi, what? |
| 13:55.28 | davidw | god damn am I tired |
| 13:55.41 | davidw | I wish I had better design skills too |
| 13:55.53 | ligi | just read the history of this chan and noticed the closed SDK thing for the !50 |
| 13:55.58 | ligi | that suxx |
| 13:56.18 | ligi | and makes no sense at all |
| 13:56.27 | davidw | well... we'll wait and see what they say |
| 13:56.54 | davidw | the best approach is to act as if they aren't doing somethings stupid until we're sure, since we don't really actually know much at all yet |
| 13:57.14 | dmoffett_ | Most of the things Google has done has not bothered me that much, however this SDK deal really pisses me off. |
| 13:57.37 | ligi | dmoffett_: same here |
| 13:57.51 | ligi | this is so fuckin stupid |
| 14:00.07 | dmoffett_ | Does not make sense. If they want a NDA to keep it under wraps for a few months I will sign but don't handicap 1733 sincere efforts. |
| 14:00.21 | jasta | davidw is right though, it is unwise to trust Zach and Muthu with this type of thing ;) |
| 14:00.33 | dmoffett_ | Cool |
| 14:00.45 | ligi | ;-) |
| 14:01.02 | dmoffett_ | So nothing has been confirmed. |
| 14:01.02 | davidw | I think 'davidw is right' would make a good topic, and a good rule to live by |
| 14:01.06 | jasta | i'd be fine with the ADC winners getting special SDK updates, with applications produced by Google being revealed so that they can integrate with e-mail, etc. But just taking away simple bug fixes, new APIs, etc is so crazy. |
| 14:01.07 | ligi | hope these are just bad rumours |
| 14:01.39 | ligi | i want working bluetooth !!!!-) |
| 14:03.26 | dmoffett_ | Oh well I hope they are not holding up the latest SDK for any reason. |
| 14:03.33 | jasta | man, i am so going to make a scene at I/O :) |
| 14:03.49 | jasta | i hope i get really drunk and get kicked out. those are my favorite stories of all ;) |
| 14:04.03 | davidw | ahahhah |
| 14:04.05 | ligi | jasta: ^^-) |
| 14:04.37 | ligi | jasta: i want to see this but not enter America - plz make videos |
| 14:05.24 | muthu | Google IO party.. man that would be cool |
| 14:05.43 | muthu | i'm joining you jasta |
| 14:06.13 | ligi | muthu: namaskar & MAKE VIDEOS !!-) |
| 14:06.41 | muthu | ligi: you bet |
| 14:07.03 | jasta | you can't come |
| 14:07.17 | muthu | jasta: hey buddy |
| 14:07.18 | [jarek] | jasta: bite sergey brin also ;> |
| 14:07.33 | jasta | hehe, that made me actually laugh aloud |
| 14:07.57 | [jarek] | jasta: you will be famous ;) |
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| 14:30.06 | Dougie187 | any news jasta? |
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| 14:34.52 | trigatch4 | What wants to write for an Android blog? :) hahha |
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| 15:04.37 | Dougie187 | i didnt know about this one. |
| 15:04.37 | Dougie187 | http://moblin.org/contest_india.php |
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| 15:11.24 | Hai-Fai | Dougie187: Am I eligible to enter? |
| 15:11.24 | Hai-Fai | If you are 18 years or older, you are eligible to enter the contest. This is a local contest for India and only residents of India or those authorized to live or work in India are eligible to participate, with some restrictions. |
| 15:11.36 | Hai-Fai | so I hope you're from India :) |
| 15:12.11 | Dougie187 | thats disappointing. |
| 15:12.15 | Dougie187 | i am not from india |
| 15:12.18 | Dougie187 | maybe muthu can hop on that one |
| 15:12.23 | Dougie187 | though the prizes are not very good |
| 15:13.15 | muthu | Dougie187: that's interesting |
| 15:23.54 | jasta | *jasta smash* |
| 15:23.54 | jasta | YARGH |
| 15:29.38 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 15:40.18 | poffy_ | heh |
| 15:40.19 | poffy_ | jasta |
| 15:40.28 | poffy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:40.30 | poffy_ | I chuckled |
| 15:51.36 | jasta | i am genuinely depressed by this recent development |
| 15:51.41 | jasta | this has really upset my mood |
| 15:53.38 | Hai-Fai | https://loopt.com/loopt/sess/index.aspx <-- did someone create some app similiar to that on android? seems pretty familiar to me.. would be cool if it were free of charge and on android |
| 15:53.50 | Dougie187 | jasta im bummed too |
| 15:53.53 | Dougie187 | and they should be around now. |
| 15:54.03 | Dougie187 | maybe about 10 more minutes thoug |
| 15:54.04 | Dougie187 | though. |
| 15:54.12 | Dougie187 | if they go in at 9am and not 8am |
| 15:54.26 | ligi | http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572 |
| 15:54.28 | ligi | argh |
| 15:55.14 | ligi | bangs his head against the wall |
| 15:55.20 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 15:55.25 | Dougie187 | thats what we ware all astounded by |
| 15:56.40 | davidw | Hai-Fai, there were about 10 of them |
| 15:57.01 | Dougie187 | lol yeah |
| 15:57.07 | Dougie187 | i would say 25 actually |
| 15:57.09 | Dougie187 | maybe a bit more. |
| 15:58.38 | Hai-Fai | no-one noticed sarcasm? |
| 15:58.50 | Dougie187 | nope. |
| 15:58.51 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:58.58 | Hai-Fai | k, g2 try better next time |
| 15:59.00 | muthu | Hai-Fai: which app similar to loopt? |
| 15:59.22 | Hai-Fai | dunno? most of 'em? |
| 15:59.39 | jasta | Hai-Fai: i've used Loopt, the interface is actually kind of goofy |
| 15:59.50 | jasta | great concept, but i don't know that it will take off because of that |
| 16:00.02 | muthu | jasta: its a paid service |
| 16:00.06 | Dougie187 | he was joking too |
| 16:00.16 | Dougie187 | he was trying to say there were tons in the ADC |
| 16:00.21 | jasta | i know it is, my friend works for loopt, and in fact he sent me a phone to use it on. |
| 16:00.33 | Hai-Fai | yep, but wouldn't it be great that all of us who didn't get to top 50 started to create such an app as opensource :) |
| 16:00.42 | Dougie187 | lol yeah |
| 16:01.02 | jasta | Hai-Fai: yeah, too bad none of us can create any app until the handsets launch now |
| 16:01.10 | Hai-Fai | basics we already have, 'cause android does include google maps =) |
| 16:01.19 | Hai-Fai | well yeah.. |
| 16:01.49 | Dougie187 | hopefully they dont do that. |
| 16:01.52 | Dougie187 | because its retarded |
| 16:02.43 | Hai-Fai | I'm not counting on that "hopefully" 'cause it seems pretty obvious |
| 16:02.58 | jasta | i bet they do, honestly. this thing has actually been very poorly managed from the start. |
| 16:03.34 | muthu | marvin & commandro looks a lot more functional |
| 16:03.37 | jasta | we've all just put up with it because we've been enchanted by the hope of prize money and a better phone down the road. |
| 16:04.03 | jasta | at this point in the game, i have my doubts that Android will even work well. |
| 16:04.21 | jasta | and i don't see how it is going to wrestle market share away from the iPhone |
| 16:04.29 | Hai-Fai | and symbians |
| 16:04.59 | Dougie187 | I really dont understand the purpose of not releasing due to bugs and crap. |
| 16:05.04 | muthu | jasta: i'm sure there will be an sdk release soon |
| 16:05.07 | Dougie187 | i would think they would release so people could help find bugs |
| 16:05.12 | Dougie187 | lol for you |
| 16:05.13 | Dougie187 | not for us |
| 16:06.01 | muthu | i bet there'll be a public one |
| 16:06.09 | Dougie187 | not for "a couple months" |
| 16:06.22 | Dougie187 | so people assume after ADC is over. |
| 16:06.37 | davidw | dougie: http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/02/21/android-commercial-meets-open-source |
| 16:06.57 | davidw | There are a ton of 'commercial' type people playing with Android too |
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| 16:07.10 | Dougie187 | jasta. jump him |
| 16:07.11 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:07.18 | davidw | who probably would never dream of submitting bugs, and will just complain that it's broken |
| 16:07.50 | Dougie187 | but the whole open source community who is commited to developing working apps would submit bugs and possibly even fix some of them if they could. |
| 16:08.04 | Dougie187 | especially if a bug is relavent to their app working correctly |
| 16:08.38 | davidw | well |
| 16:08.43 | davidw | except that Android isn't open source, either |
| 16:08.48 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 16:08.51 | Dougie187 | thats why i said if they could |
| 16:08.55 | davidw | Dougie187, that's the point of my article.... it's sort of in a no-man's land |
| 16:09.07 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:09.45 | Dougie187 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:11.01 | muthu | ADC2 will be bigger |
| 16:11.15 | Dougie187 | what makes you say that? |
| 16:13.28 | muthu | just the challenge and the prize money will motivate people again |
| 16:14.02 | Dougie187 | i dont know if it would be bigger though |
| 16:14.09 | Dougie187 | especially if google pisses off alot of developers. |
| 16:14.26 | Dougie187 | not the commercial people as davidw was pointing out. |
| 16:14.35 | dmoffett_ | there will always be a long list of people who will step up. |
| 16:15.03 | muthu | yeah, there will be numbers |
| 16:15.46 | dmoffett_ | If everyone of us bailed Android would still be fine if Google stands behind Android. |
| 16:19.14 | Dougie187 | its disappointing if thats their standpoint |
| 16:19.21 | Dougie187 | seems a little microsoftish |
| 16:19.29 | Dougie187 | fix things by throwing money at them |
| 16:20.26 | davidw | man, I'm tired |
| 16:20.54 | dmoffett_ | Not saying that is their standpoint. Just a fact that as a small developer has to deal with. |
| 16:21.13 | Hai-Fai | that's what they tried with XP and noticed it works, so they keep on getting money from ppl with Vista [luckily it isn't working that great as it did with XP].. |
| 16:21.24 | Dougie187 | Its what they did with the Xbox too |
| 16:24.01 | jasta | i bet the Google Apps that have been developing quietly (e-mail, calendar, etc) are all shit ;) |
| 16:24.37 | dmoffett_ | yeah just like all their other apps. :-) |
| 16:26.13 | jasta | i bet they're ridiculously ajaxy for no good reason ;) |
| 16:26.16 | Hai-Fai | but their (g)mail isn't that shitty =P |
| 16:29.15 | jasta | they're just embarrassed to show it, so they lock the devs into an NDA :) |
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| 16:32.43 | jasta | gah, i'm just upset |
| 16:32.45 | jasta | i bet they're awesome :( |
| 16:32.54 | Dougie187 | what do you bet is awesome? |
| 16:33.00 | Dougie187 | i wonder when they get access to the new SDK |
| 16:33.51 | dmoffett_ | the sdk will probably fall into the wrong hands anywa. :-) |
| 16:33.58 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 16:34.27 | Dougie187 | i was thinking, maybe you can "become" part of another group. like muthu's, just to get access to the SDK and sign an NDA but not get any money or contribute to their project. |
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| 16:35.18 | jasta | i actually don't think this one will get leaked. |
| 16:35.29 | Dougie187 | why not? |
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| 16:41.40 | jasta | i just don't think so. the ADC winners will be too scared to get screwed out of their prize money |
| 16:41.58 | jasta | and the OHA members are insane mobile companies who have a long history of keeping information locked down |
| 16:42.08 | jasta | and Google, well, maybe :) |
| 16:42.47 | jasta | btw, $20 says Dan does not show up today |
| 16:43.14 | muthu | $40 says he's not showing up tomorrow too |
| 16:43.16 | muthu | hehe |
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| 16:43.52 | muthu | jasta: 20 please |
| 16:43.57 | jasta | wow |
| 16:43.59 | jasta | that was weird :) |
| 16:44.09 | jasta | $20 says a beautiful woman won't walk by topless |
| 16:44.14 | muthu | lol |
| 16:44.16 | jasta | *crosses fingers* |
| 16:44.31 | topless | hey jasta |
| 16:44.32 | jasta | i said beautiful woman |
| 16:44.36 | topless | haha |
| 16:44.41 | ligi | lol |
| 16:44.56 | jasta | morrildl: so, now that you're here: *WHAT THE FUCK!?!?* |
| 16:44.59 | ligi | jasta: he can cook |
| 16:45.14 | muthu | yo ligi |
| 16:45.17 | jasta | ligi: utility does not equate to beauty. hmm, or does it? :) |
| 16:45.33 | morrildl | jasta: hmm? |
| 16:45.37 | ligi | morrildl: why no new SDK for us loosers? |
| 16:45.54 | ligi | morrildl: thats the context: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/572 |
| 16:46.23 | morrildl | jasta: it wasn't that weird |
| 16:46.29 | morrildl | points at romainguy |
| 16:46.37 | romainguy | I'm totally innocent |
| 16:46.45 | morrildl | ;) |
| 16:46.47 | morrildl | ahh yes, that |
| 16:46.55 | morrildl | ligi: yeah we aren't happy about that |
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| 16:47.10 | ligi | morrildl: then why do you do it? |
| 16:47.29 | ligi | morrildl: Love it ; Change it or Leave it |
| 16:47.47 | dmoffett_ | The question is are they going to do it? |
| 16:47.56 | morrildl | ligi: the problem is that there are a lot of factors pushing the decision around |
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| 16:48.09 | jasta | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:48.22 | ligi | ^^ |
| 16:48.38 | morrildl | as David said in the post, a big one is API stability and so on -- there's not much point in replacing a non-final set of APIs with a different non-final set of APIs |
| 16:48.58 | jasta | there is nothing that makes this decision acceptable, dan. it isn't unfortunate, it's downright absurd. you assholes got a lot of hard work out of us, and are not permitting us to prepare for the handset launch. |
| 16:49.04 | morrildl | another big influencer is various IP considerations that I am actually not even that well informed on |
| 16:49.29 | jasta | morrildl: oh shove it. we haven't seen anything resembling stable APIs, bug free code, etc. the whole platform has been a mess to work with and you know it. |
| 16:50.35 | ligi | ;-) |
| 16:51.05 | jasta | you guys need to open your eyes and realize that 1800 people worked HARD for your platform, trying to make it a success with consumers. |
| 16:51.51 | jasta | penalizing us because we didn't write a stupid fucking social app is appalling. |
| 16:53.09 | volmarias | You wrote apps, for a potential prize. |
| 16:53.12 | jasta | we at least deserve an official statement for crying out loud. "thanks for all your hard work, now get lost." |
| 16:53.24 | dmoffett_ | Jasta: carrying on like that is not going to get us anywhere. I appreciate your sentiment and I aggree on a lot of points but the guys here can carry our case or get pissed at us. |
| 16:53.29 | morrildl | jasta: indeed, it's definitely a problem for people who want to keep developing, and it also isn't a very open-source-y thing to do |
| 16:53.51 | ligi | morrildl: thats the point |
| 16:54.05 | morrildl | the problem is, as I said, that there are more considerations than just the open-source part of it |
| 16:54.15 | jasta | morrildl: and what about these developer sessions at I/O? why on earth would anyone want to attend that? |
| 16:54.42 | volmarias | why, I demand you immediately place android under the GPL! Let the foss community work with it! Let it become a resounding success, like GNU/Hurd! |
| 16:54.46 | dmoffett_ | We can all sign NDAs. |
| 16:55.04 | morrildl | One thing that I guess it would make sense to ask is: would anybody be willing/interested to the same level of access that hte top-50 have? |
| 16:55.18 | volmarias | I think you can guess the answer to that. |
| 16:55.24 | dmoffett_ | We have been on board for many months and should not be cut out at this point. |
| 16:55.27 | volmarias | at least based on jasta's bile |
| 16:55.27 | jasta | yeah, gee, i wonder. |
| 16:55.28 | morrildl | meaning, is the primary concern the principled concern about it being restricted access, or is the principle concern simply access? |
| 16:56.06 | ligi | morrildl: access |
| 16:56.06 | jasta | morrildl: why do we have to pick? there are plenty of things that are not sensitive changes to the SDK that would keep people moving |
| 16:56.08 | dmoffett_ | I would sign an NDA to move my program forward. |
| 16:56.13 | jasta | for example, a MediaPlayer class that isn't horribly broken. |
| 16:56.27 | ligi | or Bluetooth API that is there |
| 16:56.31 | jasta | access to perhaps certain critical API changes, like the improvements to the XML layouts. |
| 16:56.35 | jasta | yes, exactly |
| 16:56.46 | jasta | the things which have nothing to do with sensitive material should be branched and released to the general public. |
| 16:56.54 | jasta | and surely that's most of it that we need to keep going! |
| 16:57.24 | jasta | it's not like any of us have seen any of sensitive details of the platform up to this point, but we've had enough to develop. |
| 16:57.29 | jasta | well, some of us ;) |
| 16:58.22 | morrildl | jasta: so I assume that for your part that's a 'no'? |
| 16:58.38 | jasta | what's a no? |
| 16:58.52 | jasta | about signing an NDA. i would certainly prefer not to, though if that is my only option to keep moving i would. |
| 16:58.54 | ligi | morrildl: i don't linke NDA's but if i _must_ sign to continue - I would |
| 16:59.03 | jasta | but my big question is: WHY the NDA? What the hell is in there!?!? |
| 16:59.27 | dmoffett_ | you have to sign one to find out. :-) |
| 16:59.30 | ligi | jasta: i think details about upcoming Hardware they want to hide e.g. |
| 16:59.31 | jasta | i mean we're screaming about huge missing features that are found on other platform SDKs. things need to work like they are supposed to, bluetooth needs to be there, etc. |
| 16:59.58 | morrildl | ligi: indeed that is a big concern |
| 17:00.11 | ligi | they dont want the roumor to leak that Atom iss supported by Android |
| 17:00.12 | jasta | we need to know what some of the new APIs look like to keep our designs current, etc. |
| 17:00.12 | ligi | ^^ |
| 17:00.34 | morrildl | probably the nastiest problem we are dealing with is that we are keeping other companies' secrets right now |
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| 17:00.56 | jasta | i am not filled with confidence that android is ever going to be open source, btw. |
| 17:01.12 | morrildl | jasta: sure, I can understand where that comes from |
| 17:01.16 | ligi | and that would suck .. |
| 17:01.18 | jasta | maybe some parts, but if google is currently demonstrating that they can't even separate bug fixes from all this proprietary mess, then what can we expect down the road? |
| 17:01.24 | ligi | then i wasted my time |
| 17:01.38 | morrildl | That plan has not changed though, the source will still be released once handsets ship |
| 17:02.04 | jasta | i mean is this just one giant monolithic mess? why can't we have our API updates, bug fixes etc, separated from the parts that must be covered under an NDA? |
| 17:02.08 | jasta | makes no sense! |
| 17:02.22 | ligi | morrildl: cant u somehow accidently leak the infos so that this is no more problem ?-) |
| 17:02.35 | jasta | that said, i will reiterate that if i must, i will sign an NDA to keep going. |
| 17:02.57 | muthu | morrildl: people are confused with NDA |
| 17:03.10 | morrildl | muthu: yes, taht's a good point too |
| 17:03.11 | volmarias | jasta will sign it with blood. |
| 17:03.15 | volmarias | not his blood, mind. |
| 17:03.41 | muthu | there's a lot of discussion going on everywhere about this whole NDA thing |
| 17:03.47 | ligi | morrildl: btw.: are the ADC I winners blocked for ADC II? If not they have a big advantage ... |
| 17:03.51 | muthu | and why rules are changing |
| 17:05.40 | dmoffett_ | It seems pretty simple to me. Are you willing to sign an NDA to get access to the latest SDK? If not then wait. |
| 17:06.01 | dmoffett_ | Far better than falling a few months behind. |
| 17:06.10 | jasta | it seems even simpler to me: branch the code and release bug fixes and certain new APIs/features separately from sensitive changes. |
| 17:06.47 | dmoffett_ | I have no idea what is going on inside Google, they are the best judge of that. I just want access to the sdk. |
| 17:07.51 | jasta | dmoffett_: or maybe they aren't? maybe the team just didn't think of that as an option at first. |
| 17:08.57 | jasta | i've met quite a few engineers who don't even know how to maintain branches :) |
| 17:09.04 | jasta | (despite it being very easy to do) |
| 17:09.27 | morrildl | the issue isn't branching, it's the process overhead in figuring out what needs to get branched |
| 17:10.01 | jasta | you don't think you can trust the engineers to make that call when its obvious, and clarify when it's not? |
| 17:10.09 | morrildl | ligi: are you asking if ADC 1 winners are eligible for ADC 2? |
| 17:10.11 | dmoffett_ | Frankly I would like to see the entire sdk even if under a NDA. |
| 17:10.51 | ligi | morrildl: right |
| 17:11.07 | ligi | morrildl: those who recieve the new SDK |
| 17:11.31 | morrildl | ligi: good question. The rules for ADC 2 are written yet, so that isn't an answerable question, per se |
| 17:12.07 | morrildl | but that is definitely a good point, that people who have early access to the SDK have an advantage in ADC2 |
| 17:12.12 | morrildl | at least, depending on the timing of ADC 2 |
| 17:12.35 | morrildl | relative to the eventual public SDK release, I mean |
| 17:12.42 | dmoffett_ | Can I give you my email for the NDA, we do want to be fair. |
| 17:12.42 | ligi | morrildl: dont see the dependency on timing |
| 17:13.02 | Dougie187 | damn i gotta catch up |
| 17:13.09 | morrildl | ligi: I mean that if the public SDK is out for 6 months before ADC 2 starts, then an extra 1 month might not matter much |
| 17:13.21 | muthu | /nickserv register muthu |
| 17:13.23 | morrildl | ligi: but if it's only been public for like 1 month, that's a clear advantage |
| 17:13.42 | ligi | morrildl: no its always +X => so an advantage |
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| 17:14.18 | morrildl | ligi: yes, but the value of +X diminishes over time, so that eventually it will drop into the general noise |
| 17:14.25 | morrildl | ligi: anyway I don't mean to get into lawyer arguments :) |
| 17:14.37 | morrildl | I'll make sure that point gets considered when the ADC2 rules get written |
| 17:15.31 | ligi | morrildl: ok - but this was just a side note |
| 17:16.20 | ligi | I thought i get an SDK with working Bluetooth earlier |
| 17:16.33 | ligi | sorry but that all suxx |
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| 17:20.37 | morrildl_ | stupid mac |
| 17:20.48 | morrildl_ | I think I missed some private messages |
| 17:21.14 | muthu | morrildl: i'm not registered, so couldn't reply private |
| 17:24.27 | Dougie187 | so morrildl, are you then allowing anyone who signs an NDA access to the SDK? |
| 17:24.33 | romainguy_ | jasta: We do know how to maintain branches :) |
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| 17:29.40 | Dougie187 | and.. i missed the discussion. |
| 17:29.50 | morrildl_ | Dougie187: since there is (clearly) substantial interest, I will see if we can do that |
| 17:30.03 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 17:30.06 | dmoffett_ | Sweet |
| 17:30.19 | Dougie187 | at least your not out to screw everyone over like we all throught this morning. |
| 17:30.20 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:31.38 | dmoffett_ | Now I can stop beating the wife and kids to relieve all this stress. :-) |
| 17:31.46 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:32.42 | ligi | morrildl: are there news about this gallery thing? |
| 17:33.26 | dmoffett_ | Just trying to give Google and idea on the gravity of the situation. Women and children suffer if the SDK is not available to all. :-) |
| 17:33.50 | Dougie187 | here its my wife and pets. |
| 17:34.06 | Dougie187 | though i havent written anything for the SDK yet. |
| 17:34.11 | Dougie187 | but i will once i get my laptop back later today |
| 17:34.15 | Dougie187 | Also, muthu owes me a laptop soon |
| 17:34.15 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:34.27 | dmoffett_ | I read that as well. |
| 17:35.41 | muthu | Dougie187: oh yeah |
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| 17:36.12 | muthu | dmoffett_: and they suffer more if its available ;) |
| 17:36.37 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:36.42 | Dougie187 | they choose from beating or isolation |
| 17:36.55 | dmoffett_ | It is two edged sword. |
| 17:38.13 | Dougie187 | nice. new lenovo coupons are out. |
| 17:38.17 | Dougie187 | lets price my laptop now. |
| 17:39.55 | Dougie187 | looks like ~650 |
| 17:40.37 | jasta | that's a nice deal :) |
| 17:40.41 | jasta | what one are you getting? |
| 17:40.46 | Dougie187 | i want to get an R61 |
| 17:40.49 | jasta | I have a Lenovo 3000 N200, and mine was like $840 |
| 17:40.52 | Dougie187 | with a discrete graphics card |
| 17:40.56 | jasta | the R series is thick. |
| 17:40.58 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 17:41.00 | Dougie187 | but i dont care |
| 17:41.04 | Dougie187 | it sits on a desk all the time anways |
| 17:41.11 | Dougie187 | i would get a T if I wanted to pay a bit more. |
| 17:41.15 | jasta | yeah, mine's pretty bulky too. i prefer the large screen. |
| 17:41.22 | Dougie187 | i want the 14.1 screen |
| 17:41.24 | Dougie187 | not the 15.4 |
| 17:41.32 | Dougie187 | i care more about the graphics card though |
| 17:41.40 | Dougie187 | i could probably go for the 15.4 to make it a bit cheaper too |
| 17:41.55 | Dougie187 | but i price it with vista basic so i can save some money on that crap |
| 17:41.58 | Dougie187 | since its getting ubuntu |
| 17:42.13 | Dougie187 | since they dont have linux + discrete graphics card |
| 17:42.19 | Dougie187 | which is really disappointing |
| 17:42.28 | jasta | my mom works for IBM and gets a pretty significant lenovo discount |
| 17:42.32 | Dougie187 | dell does but their ubuntu laptops are more than their windows ones. |
| 17:42.41 | Dougie187 | yeah i have a friend who has the IBM EPP |
| 17:42.42 | jasta | mine was normally $1080, discounted to $840. |
| 17:42.46 | Dougie187 | its about 15% |
| 17:42.50 | Dougie187 | but you cant use coupons |
| 17:42.52 | jasta | (above the normal discounts they advertise on their page) |
| 17:42.59 | Dougie187 | and right now for R series they have 30% with coupons. |
| 17:43.10 | Dougie187 | T series has ~25% |
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| 17:43.20 | Dougie187 | (on top of advertised discounts too) |
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| 17:43.38 | Dougie187 | the R that i prices was like 980 before the coupons |
| 17:43.40 | Dougie187 | and 650 after |
| 17:43.55 | Dougie187 | priced* |
| 17:44.18 | Dougie187 | of course half of the savings is from fatwallet's cash back program |
| 17:44.23 | Dougie187 | so you have to pay like 750 to start |
| 17:44.27 | Dougie187 | and then you get 15% off |
| 17:44.36 | Dougie187 | or back i should say |
| 17:45.00 | Dougie187 | pretty cool though |
| 17:45.17 | jasta | i wish lenovo would cut out the windows tax |
| 17:45.22 | jasta | let you buy it with nothing preinstalled |
| 17:45.23 | Dougie187 | me too |
| 17:45.27 | Dougie187 | true dat. |
| 17:45.31 | jasta | i just dont see why they don't have that option |
| 17:45.35 | Dougie187 | i know |
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| 17:45.42 | jasta | the only difference is whether they run their automated build or not. who cares, right? |
| 17:45.44 | Dougie187 | i want a discrete graphics card with no os |
| 17:45.55 | Dougie187 | i dont even care if it comes with SUSE |
| 17:46.00 | Dougie187 | since SUSE is free from them. |
| 17:47.03 | Dougie187 | damn, with coupons and their advertised sale prices this laptop is about 50% of what it should be |
| 17:47.40 | Dougie187 | it starts at 1191, then they ahve 25% off so its 893.25, then i put another 15% off so its 759.26 and then theres another 15% cash back and that makes it about 650. |
| 17:47.47 | Dougie187 | 645 i think was the final price. |
| 17:48.34 | Dougie187 | have you ever used fatwallet jasta? |
| 17:49.35 | jasta | no, what is it? |
| 17:49.45 | Dougie187 | its like a "deal" forums site. |
| 17:49.48 | Dougie187 | they get coupons |
| 17:49.57 | Dougie187 | and have a cash back program with a lot of online retailers. |
| 17:50.00 | Dougie187 | www.fatwallet.com |
| 17:50.50 | jasta | hmm, interesting |
| 17:50.58 | Dougie187 | its cool |
| 17:51.03 | Dougie187 | ive been a member for like 3 years now. |
| 17:52.22 | jasta | i dunno if this site is for me |
| 17:52.28 | jasta | i still buy my shampoo at the grocery store |
| 17:52.31 | Dougie187 | hah |
| 17:52.46 | Dougie187 | they have like tricky deals to get nice discounts on different things |
| 17:53.04 | Dougie187 | or just cool price match things to get sweet prices on tvs and stuff |
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| 17:53.57 | ligi | Dougie187: do they have coupons for Android SDK's ?-) |
| 17:54.05 | Dougie187 | not yet |
| 17:54.05 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:54.13 | Dougie187 | maybe with an NDA |
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| 17:56.59 | Dougie187 | man, matt_c must have a messed up comp |
| 17:57.03 | Dougie187 | or IRC client |
| 17:59.02 | matt_c | Dougie187: sorry, I've been bouncing between locations and networks. |
| 17:59.10 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:59.15 | Dougie187 | i dont have an issue with it |
| 17:59.18 | matt_c | :) |
| 17:59.22 | Dougie187 | i just saw you leave and join 4 times really quick |
| 17:59.37 | matt_c | Yeah, I think my IRC client was being a bit over-zealous. |
| 17:59.55 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:59.58 | Dougie187 | it happens |
| 18:01.03 | jasta | hehe, i am reminded of http://xkcd.com/416/ |
| 18:01.48 | Dougie187 | what irc clients do you guys use? |
| 18:01.59 | jasta | irssi |
| 18:02.29 | Dougie187 | haha |
| 18:02.32 | Dougie187 | that is funny |
| 18:03.05 | Dougie187 | i use pidgin when im on ubuntu |
| 18:03.09 | Dougie187 | right now im using trillian though |
| 18:03.24 | muthu | kopete |
| 18:04.02 | muthu | any wifi network manager for fedora? |
| 18:04.15 | muthu | basically just want to browse the list of wifi networks and connect |
| 18:04.18 | Dougie187 | who uses fedora? |
| 18:04.22 | muthu | me |
| 18:04.24 | Dougie187 | WifiRadar maybe/ |
| 18:04.26 | Dougie187 | ? |
| 18:04.29 | Dougie187 | i know thats one in ubuntu |
| 18:04.38 | muthu | yeah, ubuntu is good on that |
| 18:04.39 | Dougie187 | dont know if they have an RPM for it |
| 18:04.53 | muthu | ok, i'll check |
| 18:05.12 | Dougie187 | http://wifi-radar.systemimager.org/ |
| 18:05.29 | muthu | cool, thx |
| 18:05.33 | Dougie187 | np |
| 18:07.30 | muthu | what? |
| 18:07.34 | muthu | no fedora? |
| 18:07.39 | Dougie187 | build from source |
| 18:07.50 | muthu | arghhh |
| 18:07.58 | muthu | there should be something for fedora |
| 18:08.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:08.11 | Dougie187 | noone likes fedora. |
| 18:08.26 | Dougie187 | cant you use the nmapplet? |
| 18:08.28 | jasta | ubuntu just uses networkmanager |
| 18:08.41 | Dougie187 | doesnt fedora have that too? |
| 18:08.48 | Dougie187 | i thought that was gnome specific, not ubuntu specific. |
| 18:08.49 | muthu | there's a networkmanager |
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| 18:08.57 | muthu | not sure if its working right |
| 18:08.59 | Dougie187 | and theres Madwifi? |
| 18:09.20 | jasta | Dougie187: it's not really gnome specific either, KDE has a frontend for it as well |
| 18:09.24 | jasta | it's primarily a DBus service |
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| 18:10.07 | isaac | Dougie187: madwifi is a driver |
| 18:10.12 | isaac | for a given type of wireless cards |
| 18:10.14 | Dougie187 | yeah i see that now. |
| 18:10.26 | Dougie187 | i was just googling fedora wifi something. |
| 18:10.30 | muthu | isaac: any wifi client for fedora |
| 18:10.36 | isaac | and networkmanager is not really "gnome-specific" |
| 18:10.50 | isaac | kde also has a networkmanager frontend |
| 18:10.59 | isaac | muthu: dunno, debian user here |
| 18:11.09 | Dougie187 | "[14:09] jasta: Dougie187: it's not really gnome specific either, KDE has a frontend for it as well" |
| 18:11.32 | muthu | ok |
| 18:11.34 | isaac | ops, right, I didn't see that :P |
| 18:11.36 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 18:11.53 | Dougie187 | muthu, you might as well convert |
| 18:12.02 | Dougie187 | you will get a lot more help. lol |
| 18:12.11 | muthu | ubuntu seems to be the common sense |
| 18:12.19 | Dougie187 | yup |
| 18:12.34 | Dougie187 | i hear mint is good too |
| 18:13.34 | Dougie187 | damn. ubuntu.com gets twice as many hits and the next highest linux distro |
| 18:13.45 | Dougie187 | well ~twice |
| 18:14.05 | Dougie187 | more like 1.6 |
| 18:14.41 | isaac | Dougie187: yep, it's the popular kid now |
| 18:14.52 | Dougie187 | that it is. |
| 18:15.01 | Dougie187 | im even getting my mom to switch from windows. |
| 18:15.01 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:15.29 | isaac | my mum has been using debian for a couple of years |
| 18:15.35 | Dougie187 | nice |
| 18:15.39 | Dougie187 | but is she computer savy? |
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| 18:17.37 | raboof | so if I understand correctly, Google promised the android source will be released under ASF, but right now it's an ARMv5 binary? |
| 18:18.16 | raboof | or has that changed? |
| 18:18.18 | Dougie187 | its not being released until handsets come out and probably the ADCs are over. |
| 18:19.53 | raboof | ok - presumably that's to give android-endorsing phone makers a head-start over hardware that's available right now and could technically run android? |
| 18:19.57 | raboof | or? |
| 18:20.26 | Dougie187 | i would say thats probably a good assumption |
| 18:20.31 | Dougie187 | sicne they are partnered with the OHA |
| 18:20.47 | Dougie187 | they want the OHA to be able to develop handsets and release them before people dump it on their own phones. |
| 18:21.49 | raboof | right. can't say I like it, but I guess to make friends in industry one has to make compromises :) |
| 18:22.05 | Dougie187 | yeah, and at least its going to get released at some point. |
| 18:22.19 | morrildl_ | Dougie187: no, the ADCs are not a gate on the source drop |
| 18:22.30 | Dougie187 | just handsets then? |
| 18:22.40 | morrildl_ | Dougie187: that's the plan |
| 18:22.42 | Dougie187 | k |
| 18:22.51 | Dougie187 | i knew handsets, but i thought i had heard ADC at some point. |
| 18:22.58 | Dougie187 | so then the source will be available for ADC2. |
| 18:23.05 | morrildl_ | ADC 2 is also planned to begin when handsets are available |
| 18:23.09 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 18:23.15 | morrildl_ | so both are related to handset launch in some way |
| 18:23.20 | morrildl_ | which may be what you were thinking of |
| 18:23.41 | Dougie187 | by ADC2 starting, do you mean submissions will be due? or rules and what not are released? |
| 18:23.47 | morrildl_ | the latter |
| 18:23.49 | Dougie187 | ok |
| 18:23.53 | raboof | doesn't see how anyone could be inconvenienced by the sources being available before ADC ends |
| 18:24.11 | Dougie187 | heh too bad you werent here about an hour ago |
| 18:24.12 | raboof | so that makes sense |
| 18:24.17 | Dougie187 | you probably would have an idea. |
| 18:24.25 | raboof | o :) |
| 18:24.30 | morrildl_ | basically the mail goal of ADC1 is to get a few apps ready for launch, and the goal of ADC2 is to get a few more ready once there are devices to work with |
| 18:24.31 | raboof | care to fill me in? :) |
| 18:24.34 | morrildl_ | that's the high-level goal |
| 18:24.47 | Dougie187 | hey morrildl_ are the same judges going to be judging adc2? |
| 18:24.53 | morrildl_ | Dougie187: no idea |
| 18:25.02 | morrildl_ | We don't even know if it will have the same structure |
| 18:25.02 | Dougie187 | raboof i guess it could have some "secrets" that OHA members don't want the public to know about |
| 18:25.17 | Dougie187 | potentially support for hardware and what not that they dont want released. |
| 18:25.34 | Dougie187 | morrildl_: oh ok. heh hopefully not so many social networking apps will win. |
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| 18:25.44 | Dougie187 | morrildl_: but i have an idea why that happened. |
| 18:26.03 | morrildl_ | *shrug* it happened because social networking is hot these days, and because the judges are human |
| 18:26.25 | Dougie187 | did every judge see every app? |
| 18:26.37 | tale_ | Dougie187, no |
| 18:26.38 | morrildl_ | no, every judge saw around 65 or so apps, IIRC |
| 18:26.47 | Dougie187 | thats what i think caused it. |
| 18:26.50 | Dougie187 | presonally |
| 18:26.50 | tale_ | there is a good write up on the blog that has the details |
| 18:26.54 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 18:26.58 | Dougie187 | i dont read a lot of blogs. |
| 18:27.01 | Dougie187 | either way. |
| 18:27.05 | tale_ | it's not a simple problem |
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| 18:27.24 | tale_ | lots of submissions and they wanted to have at least 4 judges per app |
| 18:27.24 | Dougie187 | true. |
| 18:27.29 | Dougie187 | yeah. |
| 18:27.37 | tale_ | it's worth the read |
| 18:27.45 | tale_ | just a sec and I'll grab the link |
| 18:27.56 | morrildl_ | Dougie187: well, the apps were randomly distributed. There were a high percentage of social-app submissions, and that appears in the results |
| 18:28.04 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 18:28.11 | morrildl_ | http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/05/challenge-in-more-than-one-way.html |
| 18:28.16 | tale_ | thanks |
| 18:28.23 | morrildl_ | has it pretty handy ;) |
| 18:28.43 | Dougie187 | i also think that a lot of judges might have been looking for specific apps, and every group of judges picked a similar app |
| 18:28.46 | convivial | Hi! |
| 18:28.48 | Dougie187 | that was different. |
| 18:28.51 | convivial | ummmm |
| 18:28.52 | convivial | is there a standard for package names for "individual developers"? |
| 18:28.55 | Dougie187 | i dont know if that makes sense or not. |
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| 18:30.27 | raboof | that's funny - if there were a lot of similar (=> social networking) apps of the same quality, you'd expect votes to spread evenly among them, giving them less votes on average |
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| 18:31.04 | Dougie187 | what if ever judge only saw one of them |
| 18:31.13 | Dougie187 | but liked the idea so much they gave them 40 points. |
| 18:31.23 | Dougie187 | then those apps are like the highest rated automatically |
| 18:31.27 | Dougie187 | every* |
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| 18:39.34 | Dougie187 | morrildl: that was a good post |
| 18:39.57 | morrildl | Dougie187: thx |
| 18:40.05 | Dougie187 | i like how you handled outliers. |
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| 18:40.52 | Dougie187 | the prizes in ADC2 are the same as in ADC1 right? |
| 18:41.43 | tale_ | no, more money |
| 18:42.11 | tale_ | however, I was under the impression that they were limited to the 50 adc1 winners. I may be wrong |
| 18:42.36 | tale_ | well, what I meant to say was that only the 50 adc1 winners could compete in adc2 |
| 18:42.43 | tale_ | but I'm not sure |
| 18:43.27 | Dougie187 | wrong. |
| 18:43.28 | Dougie187 | i know that |
| 18:43.32 | Dougie187 | your thinking Phase two of ADC1 |
| 18:43.40 | tale_ | ok |
| 18:43.43 | Dougie187 | they have ADC2 as well. and i believe the prizes for that are the same as in ADC1 |
| 18:43.51 | Dougie187 | they just dont know how it will be set up yet. |
| 18:44.05 | Dougie187 | ADC2 doesnt start until handsets are released though |
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| 19:41.21 | jasta | a thought occurs |
| 19:41.36 | jasta | AndroidScan, and probably several others, have made public announcements that they would like to go open source |
| 19:42.09 | jasta | i assume with this NDA development that Google has denied them that option? |
| 19:42.09 | jasta | at what point will they be free from the NDA to open their application? |
| 19:47.48 | zhobbs_ | that's true...can't be open source in phase 2 |
| 19:48.17 | raboof | wow, that sucks. how come? |
| 19:48.51 | Dougie187 | i would assume they would be ok after the adc is over. |
| 19:49.55 | jasta | Dougie187: uhh, really? you assume that the NDA expires after the ADC? |
| 19:50.12 | jasta | i assume it would expire when handsets launch |
| 19:50.31 | jasta | could be several months under the gun, with no option to move your app into the community |
| 19:51.31 | zhobbs_ | you are allowed to have as many members sign the NDA as you want |
| 19:51.32 | Dougie187 | true |
| 19:51.40 | zhobbs_ | but still can't make it "open" |
| 19:52.33 | Dougie187 | you could get the world to sign your nda |
| 19:52.39 | Dougie187 | then its "open" |
| 19:52.50 | jasta | zhobbs_: except that with an open source app, you'd have to negotiate with the developer that you want to contribute before you can even see source |
| 19:53.23 | zhobbs_ | yep |
| 19:55.18 | f00f- | the NDA doesn't expire from my quick glance over it |
| 19:55.23 | jasta | so, what would then prevent that developer from allowing anyone who e-mails them to get the NDA? |
| 19:55.31 | jasta | prevents* |
| 19:56.04 | zhobbs_ | can the project be penalized for one of it's developer's leaking the sdk? |
| 19:56.45 | jasta | right, exactly. so what level of trust must the original author have with any contributors? |
| 19:56.53 | zhobbs_ | a lot |
| 19:56.59 | jasta | so, how then is that an open source project? |
| 19:57.17 | zhobbs_ | it's not |
| 19:57.32 | zhobbs_ | which sucks |
| 19:57.37 | jasta | then what's the point in countering my claim that open source projects cannot be such anymore. |
| 19:57.40 | zhobbs_ | as far as I can tell though, none of the 50 are open source |
| 19:57.43 | jasta | whereas previously there was nothing to indicate that would be a problem |
| 19:57.49 | jasta | in fact, i had planned to make my app open source regardless of outcome |
| 19:57.52 | jasta | apparently that was impossible |
| 19:58.08 | jasta | zhobbs_: AndroidScan claims that it is to be GPLv3. |
| 19:58.14 | jasta | but is not currently |
| 19:58.40 | zhobbs_ | yeah, i bet they have to wait until after adc...then port to latest public sdk and release |
| 19:58.56 | jasta | which will be m5-rc15. |
| 19:59.04 | Dougie187 | or wait til handset release |
| 19:59.12 | jasta | (or maybe even longer!?) |
| 19:59.16 | jasta | who knows with an NDA |
| 20:01.10 | jasta | this is so fucking stupid |
| 20:01.49 | raboof | if someone releases something as GPLv3, every recipient must be able to use the code unencumbered by NDA's or whatnot, unless I'm mistaken |
| 20:02.25 | raboof | so if this NDA is really permanent, AndroidScan or whoever won't be able to release it to anyone under GPLv3, whether he/she wants it or not, afaics |
| 20:03.20 | jasta | raboof: right, we know that. |
| 20:03.35 | zhobbs_ | raboof: yeah, it's bs |
| 20:04.02 | raboof | jasta: i was just checking whether my interpretation was right, not neccessarily trying to tell you something new :) |
| 20:04.14 | jasta | which means Google has suddenly imposed new rules requiring every winner (who wishes to still compete) be closed source. *INTERESTING* |
| 20:05.59 | zhobbs_ | I'm inquiring about what GPL projects should do for phase II |
| 20:11.08 | davidw | so |
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| 20:11.12 | davidw | what did you all figure out? |
| 20:11.28 | Dougie187 | NDAs cause fights |
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| 20:31.06 | hap | war i d say |
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| 20:47.21 | jasta | we should put on a demonstration at I/O. "flag burning" with NDAs :) |
| 20:47.42 | volmarias | enjoy being escorted out |
| 20:49.25 | jasta | perhaps i'm used to it :) |
| 20:50.59 | dmoffett_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:51.31 | jasta | The worst offense here is that Google has led us along. |
| 20:51.52 | davidw | jasta, mmmmm that implies conscious thought |
| 20:51.55 | jasta | We've been begging for the new SDK for over a month now. And even then, why no announcement early on that this might be a pretty bumpy legal ride? |
| 20:52.16 | davidw | generally, when corporations fuck up, it's because of bureaucratic blundering and left and right hands not being coordinated |
| 20:52.29 | dmoffett_ | If they don't allow us access to the sdk then I agree we have have been had. |
| 20:54.40 | jasta | Also, I will reiterate that this has raised concerns that the SDK will ever be fully open source. |
| 20:55.02 | dmoffett_ | Yet they have not broken their word yet. |
| 20:55.19 | jasta | I appreciate that relevant source is better than the nooks and crannies of all the proprietary weirdness, but I still find that underhanded to not discuss this publicly. |
| 20:55.22 | davidw | jasta, we knew that won't happen for a while in any case |
| 20:55.24 | zhobbs_ | jasta: dan assures me everything above the kernel will be open |
| 20:55.41 | davidw | that's what I've heard too |
| 20:56.17 | jasta | Dan also assured me in January that Google would not do something stupid like bar open source projects from competing in the ADC. |
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| 20:56.37 | Dougie187 | well dont know they will |
| 20:56.42 | jasta | Despite my concerns that the rules would otherwise prevent or discourage that. |
| 20:57.15 | jasta | Dougie187: Don't we? Has anyone read the NDA yet? What does it say about releasing your source code written against the new SD? |
| 20:57.18 | jasta | SDK* |
| 21:00.56 | jasonchen | jasta: are you still coming to Google I/O? |
| 21:01.39 | jasta | Yeah, to kick some ass now ;) |
| 21:01.48 | dmoffett_ | It's like Churchill said: Google is the worse form of government, except for all the others. Or was that democracy.? :-) |
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| 21:02.32 | jasonchen | good. let's talk when you're there. i don't expect that we'll change your mind, but i think i can address some of the concerns that you've been expressing. |
| 21:05.30 | jasta | Well I look forward to it. |
| 21:05.48 | jasonchen | in the meantime, i'm hoping that we'll alsobe able address some of the questions/concerns that everyone's been expressing here in the channel via a blog post as well. |
| 21:06.28 | jasta | Though I am most upset because I feel that the community as a whole has been somewhat misled by Google's silence. I don't think that can be reconciled fully. |
| 21:07.02 | davidw | jasta, they've a big behemoth corp - give them a few days:-) |
| 21:07.02 | jasonchen | i completely understand. we can do better communicating with the community and i'm working with morrildl and others to improve that. |
| 21:07.15 | davidw | they've -> they're |
| 21:07.28 | jasonchen | it's going to take time and it won't be perfect right away, but we do _want_ to be better |
| 21:07.34 | jasta | davidw: The length of time that they knew an NDA would be requird should be approximately how long we knew. We're not just the mindless press here; we slaved for them. |
| 21:08.03 | davidw | I'm still confused as to what's what, and what's confirmed |
| 21:08.16 | davidw | and what might still be open for discussion |
| 21:08.29 | jasonchen | davidw: i'm hoping that a blog post will help clarify |
| 21:08.52 | davidw | yeah, that would help |
| 21:10.51 | dmoffett_ | jasonchen: As long as we can all have fair access to the sdk. |
| 21:12.41 | dmoffett_ | Maybe we were not selected for the 50 but that should not mean we get our hands tied. My blood pressure goes up when I even think about it. |
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| 21:15.41 | jasonchen | dmoffett_: dan and i are seeing what we can do. there are concerns (some that you've heard, some that aren't public) that the team is trying to balance. |
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| 21:21.36 | jasta | dmoffett_: Agreed, Google needs to consider our health and well-being ;) |
| 21:21.53 | dmoffett_ | At the risk of repeating myself. I am willing to sign a NDA. My guess there are others as well. |
| 21:22.35 | jasta | What was your project btw? I can't recall :) |
| 21:22.45 | dmoffett_ | VizzVox Player. |
| 21:23.31 | jasta | what is it? |
| 21:24.28 | dmoffett_ | The part we submitted was a location based Real Estate Application. |
| 21:24.41 | dmoffett_ | Online Real Estate tours. |
| 21:24.57 | dmoffett_ | The player is more general than that though. |
| 21:25.34 | dmoffett_ | http://www.vizzvox.com/en-US/info/android_player |
| 21:26.09 | dmoffett_ | After the contest we added an intent to allow other to use the player. |
| 21:26.25 | zhobbs | jasonchen: thanks for helping calm the situation, hopefully you guys can come up with a fair solution |
| 21:27.33 | davidw | yeah |
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| 21:32.49 | jasonchen | zhobbs: yw. not sure i've done anything yet, but i'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure something out. |
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| 21:39.07 | dmoffett_ | If you need help figuring it out just give me a call. I have some ideas. :-) |
| 21:40.07 | jasonchen | dmoffett: i'll have sergey give you a call ;-) |
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| 21:42.11 | dmoffett_ | who is that? |
| 21:42.21 | dmoffett_ | :-) |
| 21:43.26 | Hai-Fai | some unnecessary guy that invented something plenty of years ago, you don't wanna hear more.. |
| 21:43.38 | Hai-Fai | surname was Brin or something like that |
| 21:44.10 | Hai-Fai | but now it's time to get some sleep, nn fellas |
| 21:44.13 | dmoffett_ | Ask him if he is landing his jet at Moffett field yet? |
| 21:47.54 | davidw | sleep time for me... |
| 21:48.35 | davidw | jasonchen, have sergey give me a call too - but have him send me an Android phone to receive it on first |
| 21:49.00 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 22:08.07 | jasta | davanum: hehe |
| 22:08.10 | jasta | err, davidw |
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| 22:41.01 | Dougie187 | nice. got my laptop back |
| 22:41.08 | dmoffett_ | nice |
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| 22:41.50 | f00f- | nice |
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| 22:57.26 | Dougie187 | hell yeah. |
| 22:57.26 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 22:57.36 | Dougie187 | well time to clean up some crap. |
| 22:57.37 | Dougie187 | bbl |
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