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| 01:01.34 | acu | I want to buy two cell phones (smartphones/PDA) - is any of the existing phones going to run on Android |
| 01:02.36 | acu | Hello - is anybody out there ? |
| 01:06.09 | zhobbs` | htc vogue or something |
| 01:07.10 | acu | thanks - let me look on the htc vogue (I know they will have Dream - but when I d o not know) |
| 01:07.57 | acu | If I get un unlocked phone it should not matter whether I run Android or Windows - I am thinking to join ATT |
| 01:22.35 | jasta | no existing phones will officially run android. |
| 01:23.30 | jasta | the htc vogue is merely similar internally to the first handset that the team seems to be targetting. |
| 01:23.39 | acu | jasta: so when any of the phone & android will be available |
| 01:23.49 | jasta | and so, the porting effort is not that difficult. though major work has been done already to just make it run. |
| 01:24.07 | jasta | acu: Android will launc at the end of this year, according to the OHA. |
| 01:24.59 | acu | jasta: is any other open source option for existing pda/smartphone ? |
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| 01:26.31 | jasta | acu: not really, your question is far too vague to answer correctly. |
| 01:26.51 | acu | obviously I have seen openmoko but is also not available |
| 01:27.02 | jasta | openmoko is available. |
| 01:28.19 | jasta | nothing with the commercial weight that Android has is available, though. that is certainly the big difference here. |
| 01:28.50 | jasta | just, be patient. don't evaluate the platform as it stands now. for all you know, it will end up being a terrible phone. |
| 01:29.09 | acu | but is in very crude stage - I am planning to built a turn key solution for health care and I wanted to do it all on open source - but I would like to get things which are functional |
| 01:29.58 | zhobbs | acu: you'll have to wait if you plan on using android for commercial |
| 01:30.01 | jasta | ok, then Android obviously will not help you if you must build this system now. |
| 01:30.07 | zhobbs | acu: currently not ready |
| 01:30.51 | acu | Also, I am even thinking which carrier will be the best - ATT has best infrastructure and GSM but they are not going to implement Android - and Sprint has the other system which is not used in Europe |
| 01:32.03 | zhobbs | acu: just gotta wait |
| 01:32.41 | acu | zhobbs and jasta - thanks a bunch - bottom line is that nothing will be ready before the next mid year |
| 01:33.14 | zhobbs | acu: phones will be out later this yea |
| 01:33.16 | zhobbs | year |
| 01:34.12 | acu | that is good to hear so I will not spend money in iPhone - a Centro will do it :) |
| 01:34.17 | acu | Thanks again ! |
| 01:34.44 | zhobbs | :) |
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| 01:36.34 | jasta | i'm gonna write a terminal app tonight and try to use some of the recent activity in the android-msm git branch to get USB and SD card support working on the vogue |
| 01:36.47 | jasta | with that, it would be possible to get my app up and running pretty easily i think |
| 01:36.48 | zhobbs | nice |
| 01:37.25 | jasta | i don't think the audio subsystem works quite right, but i don't care about that as much. |
| 01:37.43 | jasta | not as interested in actually using the app as i am intesting it on real hardware |
| 01:57.09 | zhobbs | 3g iPhone looks like it might just be $199 |
| 01:57.24 | zhobbs | http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/phones/2008-06-08-apple-iphone_N.htm |
| 01:58.11 | zhobbs | pretty good deal if you ask me |
| 01:58.38 | zhobbs | just needs gps and 32 GB storage |
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| 03:26.53 | duey | can someone at google pls do something about the spam in android-* |
| 03:27.06 | duey | its getting really bad |
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| 04:07.20 | zhobbs | duey: wow, spam is getting crazy in there |
| 04:09.28 | romainguy | hopefully somebody will get on it tomorrow morning |
| 04:09.31 | romainguy | (weekend and stuff) |
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| 09:42.15 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 14:06.22 | Dougie187 | Good Morning! |
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| 14:17.20 | cutmasta | mornin Dougie187 |
| 14:17.31 | Dougie187 | Hows it going cutmasta? |
| 14:18.17 | cutmasta | hmm, good, a bit hot today here in germany |
| 14:18.28 | buster_ | hot? im melting |
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| 14:18.41 | cutmasta | buster_, yap hot |
| 14:18.45 | buster_ | im sooo tired (thx to football!) and its so hot in this room |
| 14:18.46 | buster_ | :( |
| 14:19.00 | buster_ | schlaaaand! |
| 14:19.01 | buster_ | ;D |
| 14:19.04 | cutmasta | haha |
| 14:19.07 | cutmasta | yeah! |
| 14:19.19 | cutmasta | was a great game yesterday with toooo much beer |
| 14:19.22 | cutmasta | hehe |
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| 15:21.49 | cutmasta | is away (away) |
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| 15:36.48 | jasta | re the spam, does Google Groups not use spamassassin or somethin? |
| 15:37.05 | Dougie187 | you get spam from google groups? |
| 15:37.21 | jasta | there are spammy posts all over the groups |
| 15:37.57 | Dougie187 | thats odd. |
| 15:38.11 | Dougie187 | i would think it would be similar to their spam filter for gmail. which is awesome by the way |
| 15:40.42 | Dougie187 | hows your rhythmbox plugin going? |
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| 15:43.16 | Dougie187 | hey romainguy do you know what the package name is in apt for Apache Maven 2.0.8? |
| 15:43.38 | jasta | mvn2 |
| 15:43.44 | Dougie187 | oh ok. |
| 15:44.03 | Dougie187 | btw, im trying to build your project now jasta. |
| 15:45.12 | jasta | off to work |
| 15:46.05 | tethridge | I don't know if you guys have been following the iPhone rumors, but I personally hope that android doesn't include a webcam! |
| 15:46.37 | tethridge | I can see the trouble that us guys will have trying to talk our way out of why we wouldn't accept a video chat with the wife/girlfriend |
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| 15:54.48 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:54.57 | Dougie187 | well, android isnt hardware. |
| 15:55.01 | Dougie187 | so i dont think you have to worry about it. |
| 15:55.30 | tethridge | yeah, by android I was referring to implementation of a phone |
| 15:55.39 | tethridge | technically incorrect, but you know what I mean |
| 15:55.41 | Dougie187 | oohh. |
| 15:56.00 | Dougie187 | im sure the same thing will be implemented then. |
| 15:56.07 | tethridge | I know, |
| 15:56.26 | tethridge | I can see it now, out with the guys drinking in a bar and some hot chick just happens to walk by |
| 15:56.41 | tethridge | the girlfriend would be like who's that? |
| 15:56.50 | tethridge | baby, I don't know her |
| 15:56.51 | tethridge | sure |
| 15:57.33 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:57.42 | Dougie187 | just dont pick a phone like that. |
| 15:57.48 | Dougie187 | though, it will be hard. |
| 15:57.53 | Dougie187 | since almost every phone has a camera now. |
| 15:58.15 | dmoffett | Need the green screen app with the jewelry store back ground. Of course that could cost you more. :-) |
| 15:58.33 | Dougie187 | heh |
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| 16:21.34 | Dougie187 | good morning muthu |
| 16:21.37 | Dougie187 | hows san fran going? |
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| 16:23.25 | muthu | Dougie187: mornin |
| 16:23.27 | muthu | SF is great |
| 16:23.37 | Dougie187 | nice |
| 16:23.38 | muthu | went biking across the golden gate bridge |
| 16:23.42 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 16:23.46 | Dougie187 | i bet that was tiring |
| 16:23.49 | romainguy_ | muthu: lucky you |
| 16:23.55 | romainguy_ | the weather is so nice these days |
| 16:24.00 | romainguy_ | really hot for San Francisco |
| 16:24.05 | muthu | the weather is getting hot |
| 16:24.09 | muthu | much like chennai! |
| 16:24.21 | romainguy_ | muthu: sumemr in SF is usually cooler |
| 16:24.22 | muthu | saturday - perfect weather to bike |
| 16:24.35 | muthu | romainguy_: yeah people say that |
| 16:24.51 | muthu | everywhere its getting hotter - global warming |
| 16:24.53 | muthu | i guess |
| 16:25.03 | muthu | we took the entire 40kms for biking |
| 16:25.06 | romainguy_ | muthu: France was colder :) |
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| 16:25.24 | muthu | romainguy_: you should have had a longer vacation :0 |
| 16:25.27 | muthu | :) |
| 16:25.59 | muthu | the bike was a bit smaller, but i made it anyways |
| 16:25.59 | Dougie187 | you make it down to fillmore street yet? |
| 16:26.18 | muthu | Dougie187: went through fillmore, made a comment about it |
| 16:26.22 | muthu | but not yet |
| 16:26.27 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 16:26.36 | muthu | we went to magnolia |
| 16:26.52 | muthu | a pub/restaurant |
| 16:27.00 | muthu | then to a belgian pub called tornado |
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| 16:27.58 | muthu | pretty nice weekend, overall :) |
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| 16:28.57 | trigatch4 | yo whats up? |
| 16:30.33 | jasta | hello |
| 16:31.01 | jasta | muthu: everywhere? it snowed in the mountains here this weekend. |
| 16:31.10 | muthu | wow cool |
| 16:31.25 | muthu | i like snow |
| 16:31.28 | muthu | atleast for sometime |
| 16:31.36 | muthu | jasta: went somewhere? |
| 16:31.55 | jasta | i had to do family stuff all weekend |
| 16:31.58 | jasta | totally sucked |
| 16:32.03 | jasta | my family is so racist and ignorant hehe |
| 16:32.23 | Dougie187 | jasta: isnt that how most families are? |
| 16:32.29 | jasta | yeah, basically. |
| 16:32.37 | muthu | lol |
| 16:32.48 | muthu | everyone is racist in their own way.. so... |
| 16:32.59 | jasta | everytime i say anything, my uncle tells me how i'm wrong and that god this and that. |
| 16:33.28 | muthu | looks like you had a great time ;) |
| 16:33.39 | jasta | i was telling my mom about the Phoenix mission and he used that opportunity to tell me about how i'm going to hell |
| 16:34.00 | jasta | apparently he thinks that NASA is one big lie, run by the anti-christ. |
| 16:34.10 | jasta | sent from the devil to destroy christianity |
| 16:34.37 | Dougie187 | yeah. there are a lot of people like that. |
| 16:34.55 | Dougie187 | completely ignorant. and the sad part, is the ignorant people think they know everything. |
| 16:35.11 | jasta | it's easy to dismiss though. any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. |
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| 16:35.20 | jasta | and for them, it doesn't take much to qualify as sufficiently advanced :) |
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| 16:35.52 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:35.57 | Dougie187 | anything they cant build with legos |
| 16:36.44 | jasta | i was talking about Gallileo's house arrest once at Thanksgiving to my mom |
| 16:36.55 | jasta | after i watched some thing on the discovery channel that i thought was interesting |
| 16:37.07 | jasta | and he went on his high horse about how he should have burned in hell |
| 16:37.14 | Dougie187 | hah |
| 16:37.23 | Dougie187 | Did you watch that Discovery thing about nasa? |
| 16:37.28 | jasta | when i told him that the vatican recently apologised for what they did to him, he complained that they were weak. |
| 16:37.28 | Dougie187 | something like "We Came from Earth? |
| 16:37.30 | Dougie187 | or something. |
| 16:37.34 | jasta | Dougie187: no, but i hope to. |
| 16:37.45 | Dougie187 | wasnt it on yesterday? |
| 16:38.01 | jasta | i dont have cable, but i can still watch it. |
| 16:38.06 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:38.28 | jasta | space is something that really fascinates me. i enjoy the idea of applied physics on the order that humans can't even approach. |
| 16:38.50 | jasta | that all just happens naturally |
| 16:39.48 | jasta | for a while after high school i was taking community college courses just for fun and pursued their astrophysics program as far as they went before you had to go to a major university |
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| 16:40.42 | jasta | went up through calculus and differential equations as well, then quit. not interested in applying that sort of thing directly in my career, i just enjoy being familiar with it on some level. |
| 16:41.25 | jasta | is one of those stargazing dorks too |
| 16:41.48 | muthu | space is amazing |
| 16:42.32 | trigatch4 | you all paying attention to WWDC? |
| 16:42.48 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:42.52 | Dougie187 | you should get a telescope. |
| 16:43.57 | Dougie187 | jasta: you have a degree in CS? |
| 16:44.03 | jasta | no |
| 16:44.37 | Dougie187 | no degrees? |
| 16:44.37 | jasta | no |
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| 16:44.37 | Dougie187 | any plans to get one in the future? |
| 16:44.44 | jasta | yes, but only if i can get sponsorship through a company |
| 16:45.10 | muthu | how much it cost? |
| 16:45.15 | jasta | a lot |
| 16:45.15 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:45.16 | Dougie187 | a lot. |
| 16:45.19 | Dougie187 | like 40k |
| 16:45.22 | Dougie187 | for a state school |
| 16:45.36 | Dougie187 | an "alright" state school. |
| 16:45.37 | jasta | and let's be honest about most undergrad CS programs: they aren't great. |
| 16:45.43 | muthu | hmm, thought it was cheaper for americans |
| 16:45.43 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:46.01 | jasta | so $40k for a mediocre education would give me buyers remorse :) |
| 16:46.03 | Dougie187 | undergrad CS programs are not what they use to be. |
| 16:46.19 | Dougie187 | you could always get something that interested you but wasnt quite CD |
| 16:46.22 | Dougie187 | CS |
| 16:46.27 | jasta | but i like the idea of having access to all those resources and the ability to study topics i just couldn't on my own |
| 16:46.28 | Dougie187 | but had the Computer aspect. |
| 16:46.32 | jasta | just not for $40k. |
| 16:46.44 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:46.49 | Dougie187 | do you have an AA? |
| 16:47.07 | Dougie187 | since you went to community college for a while? |
| 16:47.11 | jasta | no, i wasn't pursuing one. |
| 16:47.21 | jasta | i didn't take any English/Lit or Histroy courses. |
| 16:47.39 | Dougie187 | english/lit courses suck. |
| 16:47.45 | Dougie187 | i think they are completely pointless. |
| 16:47.51 | Dougie187 | History courses are quite fun though. |
| 16:47.58 | jasta | although i did take sociology up to the 300 level. not that i am otherwise interested in that, but we had a great opportunity. a former harvard professor taught there "for fun". |
| 16:48.01 | Dougie187 | I took one on Mythology. |
| 16:48.16 | Dougie187 | thats pretty cool. |
| 16:48.27 | Dougie187 | Classical Mythology was that course. that was awesome. |
| 16:48.29 | jasta | basically, his wife wanted to move closer to her family, and he got bored in retirement so he took a job at the local community college |
| 16:48.44 | jasta | so it was an awesome opportunity to get to hear him lecture for just $200 a class :) |
| 16:48.49 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:49.19 | jasta | he was a very interesting guy |
| 16:50.00 | jasta | worked at Harvard for 12 years, 8 of which studying under some other really interesting guy. |
| 16:50.28 | Dougie187 | so you have been working out in industry for a while then? |
| 16:50.36 | jasta | yes, a long while. |
| 16:50.37 | Dougie187 | since ~18-19? |
| 16:50.40 | jasta | since 16. |
| 16:50.44 | Dougie187 | ohh. |
| 16:50.45 | Dougie187 | cool |
| 16:50.50 | Dougie187 | Where all have you worked? |
| 16:51.10 | jasta | my first job was as an intern at a text analysis company contracted by the navy. |
| 16:51.16 | jasta | then i was hired full-time after high school. |
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| 16:51.54 | jasta | after that i worked for Franciscan and helped build kiosk machines for their occupational health division so they could do their patient admission and tracking electronically |
| 16:52.44 | jasta | and i worked for a while on collegegear.com, doing their back-end administrative console to track sales, growth, etc. |
| 16:53.58 | jasta | and now i work in a hybrid engineer/sysadmin capacity at a lighting manufacturers rep in the greater pacific northwest. |
| 16:54.13 | Dougie187 | sweet |
| 16:54.18 | Dougie187 | sounds pretty fun. |
| 16:54.20 | jasta | i have built quite a few interesting things here. |
| 16:54.27 | Dougie187 | you have a lot more technical work experience then i do |
| 16:54.42 | Dougie187 | i have a lot of food service. |
| 16:54.47 | jasta | i wrote a tool to augment the main sales instrument we use here, to provide sophisticated reporting, job tracking, etc per salesmen and department. |
| 16:54.52 | Dougie187 | +1 year being a lab consultant in a computer lab. |
| 16:54.58 | Dougie187 | and 2 years being a windows sys admin |
| 16:54.59 | jasta | and i also ported parts of that to a mobile app that hte salesmen can use out in the field |
| 16:55.37 | Dougie187 | i think i enjoy Scientific Computing more then technical computing though. |
| 16:56.02 | jasta | in my personal time, i prefer solving more difficult problems than i get to at this company, of course ;) |
| 16:56.41 | jasta | distributed scalability in particular is an interesting problem space for me. |
| 16:57.27 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 16:57.36 | Dougie187 | do you do a lot of HPC stuff? |
| 16:58.13 | jasta | no, the type of distribution i have applied myself is something of the opposite problem :) |
| 16:58.25 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:00.11 | jasta | my favorite part of programming, though, is ultimately in applied CS. not necessarly solving new problems, but organizing solutions functionally. |
| 17:00.14 | Dougie187 | I got my wife a new HDD camcorder this past week. |
| 17:00.16 | Dougie187 | its so cool. |
| 17:00.21 | jasta | it's more the architectural side of programming. |
| 17:00.38 | jasta | less glamorous, but more gratifying ;) |
| 17:00.43 | Dougie187 | yeah. I like the idea of doing science with programming. |
| 17:01.00 | Dougie187 | i think its really fun. and gives you a real life thing to look at. |
| 17:01.07 | Dougie187 | or situation you want to model. |
| 17:01.41 | muthu | jasta: what's your goal? |
| 17:01.49 | jasta | professionally? |
| 17:02.57 | muthu | yes |
| 17:03.48 | jasta | i'd like to go back to working on projects that the general public interacts with. |
| 17:04.01 | jasta | i enjoy that type of work the best. |
| 17:04.10 | muthu | like what? |
| 17:04.14 | muthu | be specific |
| 17:04.37 | jasta | well it's not hard to see that a specific interest of mine is in the mobile space, specifically Android. |
| 17:04.38 | muthu | give me a single goal |
| 17:05.10 | muthu | so you want to be an Android expert? |
| 17:05.44 | jasta | why would i want to limit myself to a specific, single goal? |
| 17:06.05 | muthu | so you don't have goals? |
| 17:06.46 | jasta | that's one conclusion, even if not the correct one. |
| 17:07.03 | muthu | haha |
| 17:07.15 | jasta | but you and i are not engaging in a semantic discussion again. |
| 17:07.26 | muthu | i am asking you a question |
| 17:07.33 | muthu | and you are not able to answer |
| 17:07.42 | dmoffett | muthu: What is your goal? |
| 17:07.46 | jasta | your appreciation of words does not match mine sufficient enough to actually meaningfully interact on this topic. |
| 17:07.52 | jasta | so, we won't. |
| 17:07.55 | muthu | dmoffett: good question |
| 17:08.07 | muthu | my goal in life is: |
| 17:08.24 | *** join/#android zhobbs (n=zach@185.246.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 17:08.26 | muthu | to buy an house in SF city |
| 17:08.32 | muthu | that's it |
| 17:08.35 | dmoffett | Nice |
| 17:08.41 | jasta | what if you visit a city that you'd prefer to live in? |
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| 17:08.59 | muthu | jasta: that's my current goal |
| 17:09.08 | jasta | right, well, i don't think as concretely as you. |
| 17:09.12 | muthu | the goals keep changing, which is ok |
| 17:09.15 | muthu | which is natural |
| 17:09.27 | jasta | i know how i want to feel, and how i want my life to be. there is no concrete instance of anything that can guarantee i reach that goal. |
| 17:09.30 | dmoffett | Cool then I will have a place to stay when I visit. :-) |
| 17:09.40 | muthu | dmoffett: welcome :) |
| 17:09.44 | jasta | i don't presume to think if i get a job at a specific ocmpany and move to a specific city that i will be happy. i may be miserable. |
| 17:10.17 | muthu | jasta: how you'll feel after you reach your goal is something no one can define |
| 17:10.25 | muthu | it depends |
| 17:10.33 | jasta | i would not, for example, choose a goal to marry a tall, blonde-haired woman. i don't know that it would make me as happy as, say, a short brunette. |
| 17:10.47 | muthu | see again you are confusing yourself |
| 17:10.50 | jasta | instead, my goal is to marry someone that makes me sustainably happy. |
| 17:11.01 | muthu | jasta: ha! |
| 17:11.08 | muthu | which is exactly not attainable |
| 17:11.13 | dmoffett | Good luck with that. |
| 17:12.04 | jasta | i do not agree. can you prove to me how you are correct? |
| 17:12.04 | muthu | instead you have specific goals, you can more likely get it |
| 17:12.04 | Dougie187 | i think its attainable muthu |
| 17:12.20 | Dougie187 | lol jasta this is like that nationality discussion. |
| 17:12.39 | f00f- | philosophical discusssions again :) |
| 17:12.46 | jasta | Dougie187: Right, my point is that muthu does not appreciate semantics. |
| 17:13.16 | Dougie187 | specific goals are setting yourself up for disappointment. |
| 17:13.18 | jasta | So, communicating with him is, generally, pointless. |
| 17:13.31 | muthu | a goal has to be concrete |
| 17:13.37 | Dougie187 | no it doesnt. |
| 17:13.52 | jasta | See, that is precisely what I mean. Muthu does not understand this very simple idea ;) |
| 17:14.04 | muthu | if it doesn't then you'll never get i t |
| 17:14.18 | muthu | s/i t/it/g |
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| 17:14.26 | f00f- | goal has to be specific, else you won't know if you fulfill it |
| 17:14.33 | f00f- | vagueness helps nobody |
| 17:14.42 | muthu | f00f-: exactly |
| 17:14.44 | Dougie187 | lol. muthu, if your goal is too concrete or specific, you dont wont get it. |
| 17:14.51 | Dougie187 | Your goal can be to be happy. |
| 17:14.54 | Dougie187 | thats all you need. |
| 17:15.02 | Dougie187 | a goal is a goal. its all relative. |
| 17:15.06 | muthu | Dougie187: then you are fooling yourself |
| 17:15.09 | jasta | muthu: Do you know what semantics means? I use the word a lot, and I wonder if you even know what it means. |
| 17:15.26 | muthu | jasta: what's that? tell me |
| 17:15.27 | jasta | If a word is not defined to mean something, then it doesn't. You can't pretend that it does to you based on your current whim. |
| 17:15.39 | Dougie187 | muthu: you can buy your house in SF, but what if you dont have a job in SF. or if your family doesnt like the idea of moving to SF? |
| 17:15.52 | jasta | If goal, as it is defined, does not specifically mean that it is a concrete purpose, then it ISNT a concrete purpose. |
| 17:15.53 | muthu | Dougie187: how does that matter? |
| 17:15.57 | muthu | i just stated my goal |
| 17:16.04 | jasta | You presuming that it is makes you incomprehensible. |
| 17:16.39 | muthu | once you know what you want, then you can get it |
| 17:16.45 | Dougie187 | also, him stating that he wanted to work with mobile application is a pretty specific thing. |
| 17:16.50 | muthu | looks like Dougie187 and jasta are not thinking that way |
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| 17:17.33 | Dougie187 | he doesnt need to say, i want to work with motorola's mobile application division in SF on 35th Ave. and i want my office to be the 3rd one in the first hall on the right. |
| 17:17.43 | Dougie187 | he said what he would like to be doing, and thats a goal. |
| 17:18.06 | Dougie187 | My goal, is to get a Ph.D. in Computational Science in the next 4 years. and possibly move to Los Alamos, and work at that National Lab. |
| 17:18.09 | Dougie187 | something like that. |
| 17:18.28 | jasta | muthu: what i'm telling you is that you don't get to define words however you please. if you do, no one will be able to communicate with you meaningfully. |
| 17:18.34 | muthu | Dougie187: a good goal |
| 17:18.46 | Dougie187 | The word goal is relative. |
| 17:18.53 | muthu | jasta: i just asked you about your goal |
| 17:19.03 | muthu | you can tell me however you want |
| 17:19.10 | Dougie187 | lol, thats fine muthu, but then you basically told him his goal wasnt good enough for you. |
| 17:19.11 | jasta | muthu: yes, and i gave you one. you have this idea that goal means concrete, but the word does not mean this. |
| 17:19.31 | jasta | and as i said, you can't make up the word's meaning to fit what you believe. that will remove you from any meaningful conversation. |
| 17:20.02 | muthu | (22:16:21) jasta: i'd like to go back to working on projects that the general public interacts with |
| 17:20.08 | muthu | that's what you said is your goal |
| 17:20.13 | jasta | so, before you start talking, open a dictionary and read it. if you find that your idea was wrong about the word, then revise your argument accordingly. |
| 17:20.23 | jasta | muthu: yes, and that is a goal, by definition. |
| 17:20.25 | Dougie187 | then he specified it more. |
| 17:20.27 | Dougie187 | when you asked him. |
| 17:20.38 | cybereagle | i'd ay a goal is concrete, but does NOT haver to be highly specific. there is such a thing as a general goal. plus, the small irrelevant details may not form part of your goal, making it less specific and narrowly defines. this is not necessarily vagueness. in one sense, you could even argue it is more specific, as its target is a smaller aspect that could be achieved in many ways |
| 17:20.45 | Dougie187 | "(01:04:38 PM) jasta: well it's not hard to see that a specific interest of mine is in the mobile space, specifically Android." |
| 17:20.48 | cybereagle | depending how things in the external world that you dont directly control affect it |
| 17:20.57 | cybereagle | fluidity in a goal doesnt make it unconcrete necessarily |
| 17:20.59 | cybereagle | or vague |
| 17:21.15 | muthu | cybereagle: agree, a goal has to be concrete not necessarily higly specific |
| 17:21.37 | cybereagle | which would imply that you and jasta dont disagree as much as you both think |
| 17:21.38 | cybereagle | lol |
| 17:21.44 | Dougie187 | i disagree, and say a goal doesnt even have to be concrete. |
| 17:21.56 | Dougie187 | basically a goal is just an idea. |
| 17:22.06 | Dougie187 | its an idea of what you think at this moment would make you happy in the future. |
| 17:22.09 | cybereagle | well give an example of what you mean by a non-concrete goal |
| 17:22.10 | jasta | cybereagle: we can disagree to any arbitrary extent that he wishes, since he does not appreciate that words have meanings which he is not free to invent. |
| 17:22.10 | Dougie187 | something you would like to attian. |
| 17:22.19 | Dougie187 | so your goals can never be concrete, as they are just ideas. |
| 17:22.41 | cybereagle | something can be general, loosely defined, and unspecific and still be concretye |
| 17:23.03 | Dougie187 | well goals are not concrete by definition. |
| 17:23.07 | Dougie187 | just think about it. |
| 17:23.08 | muthu | Dougie187: you seem to state your goal well |
| 17:23.11 | *** join/#android zhobbs_ (n=zach@208.65.51.24) |
| 17:23.11 | cybereagle | but thats just a definitions argument, in spirit i'd agree more with Dougie187 on this one |
| 17:23.12 | Dougie187 | if it was, your goals would never change. |
| 17:23.22 | Dougie187 | my goals have changed so many times in my life. |
| 17:23.28 | muthu | but then looks like you really didn't think about it as a goal |
| 17:23.36 | cybereagle | goals can change and still be concrete lol |
| 17:23.42 | muthu | goals can change, always! |
| 17:23.50 | Dougie187 | lol, no they cant. that defeats the purpose of calling them concrete. |
| 17:23.59 | cybereagle | what makes it concrete is that its an idea that exists |
| 17:24.05 | cybereagle | it doesnt matter what the nature of the idea is |
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| 17:24.11 | cybereagle | its still something |
| 17:24.26 | muthu | Dougie187: if your goal doesn't change.. you'll be doing your phd all your life |
| 17:24.33 | jasta | i at least like to see cybereagle appreciating that this argument is, again, semantic. |
| 17:24.39 | *** join/#android zhobbs_ (n=zach@mail.guardianmfg.com) |
| 17:24.43 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:24.59 | Dougie187 | muthu: true. but if it changes before I attain it, i think it is not concrete |
| 17:25.01 | cybereagle | concrete doesnt mean "hard and fixed", it just means "a real instance" |
| 17:25.03 | jasta | muthu is going to fail to realize that time and time again as he argues. here, or elsewhere. |
| 17:25.23 | cybereagle | yeah its 99% semantic |
| 17:25.26 | muthu | jasta: again, what's your goal? |
| 17:25.32 | cybereagle | we all almost agree entirely lol |
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| 17:26.57 | Dougie187 | well. all except on the goals needing to be specific. i would say |
| 17:27.29 | cybereagle | yes, thats the real debate. the impresice semantics have lead us to discussing concreteness which isnt the point of contension i'd say |
| 17:27.41 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:28.01 | cybereagle | the question seems to be, does a goal need to encompas everything about a real state of affairs in life, or can it just be aimed at some aspects and not others |
| 17:28.09 | cybereagle | like, i want to be a pentester, but i dont mind where |
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| 17:28.18 | cybereagle | or, i want to be a pentester to company x in 3 months |
| 17:28.29 | Dougie187 | or even, you want to work with pens |
| 17:28.38 | cybereagle | and i think both are "goals", just that some of us think one isnt a "good goal" |
| 17:28.46 | jasta | ...arbitrarily |
| 17:28.47 | jasta | ;) |
| 17:28.49 | cybereagle | i meant penetration tester, not writing pens, but yeah :P |
| 17:28.56 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:29.16 | jasta | it must be convenient for muthu to argue any point when he gets to arbitrarily invent what he and others mean. |
| 17:29.43 | muthu | i think majority of us have agree here on what a goal is |
| 17:29.49 | muthu | nore sure about jasta ;) |
| 17:29.51 | *** join/#android jtoy (n=jtoy@125.31.232.69) |
| 17:29.52 | cybereagle | well maybe, but maybe its just his way of trying to determine what everyone means, and what the best definition to use is |
| 17:30.00 | Dougie187 | lol i think im with jasta. personally |
| 17:30.01 | cybereagle | its just a matter of debating style in many ways |
| 17:30.28 | cybereagle | but i only just got here so i'll reserve judgement on that |
| 17:30.29 | cybereagle | lol |
| 17:30.34 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 17:30.38 | zhobbs_ | my goal is to stay away from this conversation |
| 17:30.46 | muthu | cybereagle: where were you until today? |
| 17:30.51 | Dougie187 | zhobbs you dont want to jump in? |
| 17:31.01 | cybereagle | its still a lot better than the debates you might end up getting into in youtube comments or something lol |
| 17:31.14 | cybereagle | "no wai i r totally right omg!!!" |
| 17:31.18 | zhobbs_ | hah |
| 17:31.24 | *** join/#android cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.136) |
| 17:31.25 | Dougie187 | we had another debate last week that didnt end up getting finished as far as i know. |
| 17:31.26 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:31.35 | cybereagle | they rarely do on irc lol |
| 17:31.51 | muthu | we are having some lively debates here |
| 17:32.02 | Dougie187 | it because we cant talk about android anymore |
| 17:32.09 | jasta | basically :) |
| 17:32.13 | jasta | although, i do still have my HTC Vogue |
| 17:32.16 | jasta | i was gonna get USB working on it today |
| 17:32.21 | jasta | and also install my crappy terminal |
| 17:32.31 | cybereagle | my andriod project got stopped totaly in its racks by The Rest Of Life(tm) |
| 17:32.35 | jasta | with USB, i believe i could make adb work easily |
| 17:32.59 | Dougie187 | i wish we would get our f'ing announcement. |
| 17:33.04 | Dougie187 | its like 2 weeks late now. |
| 17:33.06 | zhobbs_ | anyone else watching http://www.macrumorslive.com/ ? |
| 17:33.13 | jasta | though the google folks are being decidedly vague on how adb connects to the device. i believe i have figured it out by reading through the android-msm commit log :) |
| 17:33.38 | jasta | i did not realize that android-msm is active, independent of releases. |
| 17:33.51 | jasta | there is new code going in there every day |
| 17:35.05 | *** join/#android AttractiveApe (n=phil@office.gossamer-threads.com) |
| 17:35.18 | dmoffett | zhobbs: Jobs keynote started? |
| 17:35.41 | zhobbs_ | dmoffett: yeah |
| 17:35.49 | jasta | AttractiveApe: hey :) |
| 17:35.56 | tethridge | listen live: http://www.iphonealley.com/news/wwdc-2008-keynote-live-audio-stream |
| 17:36.24 | jasta | AttractiveApe: i'm going to try to load up the device with USB support at least, and hopefully tweak the SD controller driver to get it working on the MSM7X00 |
| 17:36.32 | *** join/#android shingen (n=shingen@adsl-065-013-159-200.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net) |
| 17:36.55 | AttractiveApe | morning all. |
| 17:37.13 | jasta | AttractiveApe: http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=commit;h=383dacbcca52eb2b305e60170e85304cd8a76c55 -- i believe that commit can be trivially modified to work with the HTC Vogue |
| 17:37.14 | AttractiveApe | hey jasta, did you work on it at all over the weekend? |
| 17:37.20 | AttractiveApe | ah, nice. |
| 17:37.24 | jasta | no, i only have a phone to test with when i'm at work hehe |
| 17:38.25 | AttractiveApe | Oh, that makes a good amount of sense |
| 17:38.43 | AttractiveApe | arg, sound is broken in ubuntu again, need a reboot. |
| 17:38.44 | AttractiveApe | brb. |
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| 17:43.17 | AttractiveApe | yay sounds. |
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| 18:01.57 | zhobbs_ | seems like the iphone apps that are being demoed are better than the best android apps I've seen |
| 18:02.20 | zhobbs_ | guess there's less motivation without the hardware (and without opengl) |
| 18:03.02 | romainguy_ | there's OpenGLon Android :) |
| 18:03.14 | zhobbs_ | not for us |
| 18:03.25 | zhobbs_ | opengl apps run very poorly |
| 18:03.29 | zhobbs_ | on emulator |
| 18:03.48 | Dougie187 | hey romainguy can you see if jasonchen has our announcement yet? |
| 18:05.02 | dmoffett | Apple now has some kind of background processing. |
| 18:05.06 | zhobbs_ | interesting, "The wrong solution would be to allow for background processes -- bad for battery life and performance. Apple has come up with a far better solution -- a push notification service available for all developers." |
| 18:05.49 | zhobbs_ | what XMPP should have been |
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| 18:11.13 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: what announcement? |
| 18:11.28 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: again, it depends on your machine, Quake runes just fine on my emulator |
| 18:11.28 | Dougie187 | about the sdk for everyone other then the adc winners. |
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| 18:11.33 | Dougie187 | we wre supposed to get it two weeks ago |
| 18:11.49 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: It was never said you would get the SDK :) |
| 18:11.59 | Dougie187 | no. but he said we would get an announcement |
| 18:12.02 | romainguy_ | As long as there's no announcement on the Android blog, then there's no announcement |
| 18:12.09 | Dougie187 | stating what would happen and stuff like that. |
| 18:12.20 | Dougie187 | he said he was going to let us know what was going on, two weeks ago. before IO |
| 18:12.20 | zhobbs_ | romainguy_: quake runs on yours?? I can barely scroll a list on mine :) |
| 18:12.24 | Dougie187 | and he hasnt said anything |
| 18:12.42 | romainguy_ | zhobbs_: I told you, the emulator speed depends on your machine :)) |
| 18:12.44 | zhobbs_ | I need to upgrade my PC I guess |
| 18:14.32 | zhobbs_ | Dougie187: don't hold your breath for the "announcement" |
| 18:14.53 | Dougie187 | im just frustrated, because he hasnt said anything about it. |
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| 18:39.33 | zhobbs_ | 11:38 amGPS support now integrated into the iPhone. |
| 18:40.15 | Dougie187 | cool |
| 18:42.10 | AstainHellbring | about time is all I have to say |
| 18:42.24 | zhobbs_ | yep |
| 18:42.34 | zhobbs_ | android has a lot of catching up to do... |
| 18:42.58 | AstainHellbring | not really |
| 18:43.02 | dmoffett | GPS as well, about time. |
| 18:43.10 | AstainHellbring | android will kick iphones ass |
| 18:43.21 | tethridge | one day maybe |
| 18:43.33 | tethridge | first you need an actual shipping phone |
| 18:43.45 | AstainHellbring | lol yah that would help |
| 18:43.53 | romainguy_ | let us finish the software :p |
| 18:43.59 | zhobbs_ | I think it'll take android a little while to catch up |
| 18:44.29 | tethridge | the exchange support will keep it ahead of android in the enterprise |
| 18:44.36 | dmoffett | They are adding to the time to catch up by not releasing the sdk. |
| 18:44.43 | zhobbs_ | yeah, exchange support will probably take a while in android |
| 18:44.49 | AstainHellbring | eh ppl like android enough they are already hacking it into real world phones |
| 18:44.59 | jasta | tethridge: maybe not. Microsoft just released all that documentation, promising Exchange ActiveSync docs this month |
| 18:45.03 | AstainHellbring | I bet someone will have exchange support on android |
| 18:45.17 | jasta | and also a license agreement that agrees to fully disclose patents and not sue open source projects |
| 18:45.27 | AstainHellbring | very nice jasta |
| 18:45.30 | jasta | so, implementing ActiveSync would be quite trivial with all that information |
| 18:45.33 | tethridge | iphone now $199 |
| 18:45.43 | dmoffett | nice |
| 18:45.53 | tethridge | 8gb model |
| 18:45.58 | tethridge | $299 for 16 |
| 18:46.00 | AstainHellbring | I wonder if thats though apple or through carriers? |
| 18:46.03 | zhobbs_ | nice |
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| 18:46.14 | zhobbs_ | AstainHellbring: with contract I would assume |
| 18:46.47 | AstainHellbring | me as well |
| 18:46.58 | tethridge | steve hasn't said yet |
| 18:47.04 | AstainHellbring | but all will be seen when its for sale on apple store I guess |
| 18:47.20 | zhobbs_ | is it usually $200 more for no contract or something? |
| 18:47.23 | dmoffett | aapl down -5.84 |
| 18:47.33 | AstainHellbring | july 11th release date for 3g iphone |
| 18:47.34 | dmoffett | Guess investors want more. :-) |
| 18:47.58 | tethridge | his speech isn't over |
| 18:48.16 | tethridge | he usually does the "one more thing" |
| 18:48.39 | AstainHellbring | yep there always is the one more thing |
| 18:48.49 | zhobbs_ | hopefully 32 GB model... |
| 18:49.32 | tethridge | there has to be a contract for the $199 or they won't be selling many ipod nanos |
| 18:49.47 | AstainHellbring | itd be interesting if they do a upgrade path for current iphone users |
| 18:50.12 | zhobbs_ | AstainHellbring: free firmware upgrade for iPhone owners |
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| 18:50.40 | dmoffett | might be a tablet pc based on touch interface. |
| 18:50.46 | tethridge | nope |
| 18:50.48 | tethridge | it's over |
| 18:50.54 | tethridge | no "one more thing" |
| 18:51.00 | dmoffett | wow |
| 18:51.08 | dmoffett | stock is goiing to taek a hit I thinkg. |
| 18:51.36 | zhobbs_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.00 | dmoffett | yep |
| 18:52.26 | dmoffett | At that price I will replace my current one. |
| 18:52.33 | dmoffett | Just for the GPS. |
| 18:52.35 | zhobbs_ | I might have to get one |
| 18:52.54 | zhobbs_ | will pay extra for no contract though |
| 18:53.40 | AstainHellbring | wow no and one more thing |
| 18:54.59 | zhobbs_ | I'm kinda surprised about the GPS support, that's pretty cool |
| 18:55.25 | dmoffett | I think Apple has left the door open for Android. Nothing really "big" announced. Now Google can announce the new kick ass GPHone. |
| 18:56.40 | zhobbs_ | dmoffett: would be nice if we knew something (mfg, carrier) |
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| 18:57.05 | dmoffett | yep |
| 18:57.12 | dmoffett | Looking forward to some news. |
| 18:57.16 | AstainHellbring | yah that was lame |
| 18:57.19 | Dougie187 | well you have two carriers. |
| 18:57.20 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:57.32 | Dougie187 | take you pick |
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| 19:05.30 | jasta | i am hoping i dont have to change carriers for Android. i'd like to be able to unlock the t-mobile phone |
| 19:06.08 | Dougie187 | what carrier do you have? |
| 19:06.11 | jasta | AT&T |
| 19:07.21 | Dougie187 | we shall see. |
| 19:07.37 | Dougie187 | you could always switch to sprint |
| 19:07.37 | jasta | i would be willing to switch for Android, though |
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| 19:08.35 | trigatch4 | jasta: t-mobile already said they would have an android phone by the end of 2008 |
| 19:08.39 | Dougie187 | but would you go with sprint or tmobile? |
| 19:08.39 | f00f- | oh, renewed interest in anrdoid jasta? ;) |
| 19:08.52 | trigatch4 | iphone 3g gayness just wrapped up |
| 19:08.54 | Dougie187 | lol his interest never left. |
| 19:09.49 | jasta | f00f-: no, i never said i was going to avoid Android now. |
| 19:10.02 | jasta | when it comes out, i still intend to embrace it. i'm just pissed that they are being asshats about it. |
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| 19:18.15 | AttractiveApe | any luck jasta? |
| 19:19.33 | jasta | i'm getting the toolchain up to compile the kernel on this machine |
| 19:19.40 | jasta | it's a big download and my link is not that great |
| 19:21.41 | AttractiveApe | ah, k |
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| 19:36.29 | jasta | hmm, neat, adb.c |
| 19:39.44 | jasta | alright, building this crap |
| 19:41.23 | romainguy_ | adb.c? |
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| 19:42.00 | jasta | the USB function driver for adb |
| 19:42.12 | jasta | exploring the git repository to get USB support up on the htc vogue board |
| 19:42.55 | Dougie187 | hey romainguy_ how come your like the only google guy who hangs out in here for the most part? |
| 19:43.07 | romainguy_ | Dougie187: because we're busy? :) |
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| 21:29.34 | AttractiveApe | anymore progress jasta? |
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| 21:35.33 | jasta | lame, kernel panic'd with this code on |
| 21:35.41 | jasta | i'm not surprised, since martin commented it out :) |
| 21:37.38 | AttractiveApe | did martin allude to what he was working on for the next 'release'? |
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| 21:50.11 | jasta | AttractiveApe: yeah, he said he would be focusing on the SD controller support |
| 21:50.17 | jasta | but that wouldnt be for a few weeks |
| 21:50.45 | jasta | the amount of work he has done so far is staggering. i am curious what his dev set up looks like to have figured all this out |
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| 21:51.33 | AttractiveApe | jasta: not saying what he has done is minor :p |
| 21:53.05 | jasta | i was just commenting that i'd like to know how he figured all this out |
| 21:53.18 | jasta | i know that haret can be very useful here, i just dont know how to use it effectively i guess |
| 21:53.48 | jasta | i'd like to pick his brain on what to do to get USB working |
| 22:09.45 | romainguy_ | zhobbs: check out the adc2 mailing list |
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| 22:30.44 | tomgibara | Does anyone think that server-push is an effective substitute for application defined background tasks? |
| 22:31.44 | zhobbs | in some cases it's more useful...but there are times you need background tasks |
| 22:32.10 | zhobbs | I wish android had a better way to push |
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| 22:33.27 | tomgibara | Assuming the system provides OS level support for background downloading/alarms/location (ie. system provided services). What application would need background tasks, and what for? |
| 22:34.16 | zhobbs | hmm, maybe an rss app? |
| 22:34.57 | tomgibara | An RSS app could use an alarm service, or push from an aggregating web service. |
| 22:35.34 | zhobbs | yeah. does iphone have alarm services? |
| 22:35.45 | tomgibara | I don't know |
| 22:35.52 | tomgibara | I would expect so |
| 22:36.27 | zhobbs | well an alarm service would have to launch a background task or else it would be pretty annoying |
| 22:37.23 | tomgibara | Yes, good point. |
| 22:38.29 | zhobbs | but I see what you mean, alarm service + push covers mostly everything |
| 22:38.51 | tomgibara | Though, the alarm service on the iPhone (which I understand from what I read does not support background application processes) could invoke an application, and that application could choose not to 'launch' |
| 22:39.35 | zhobbs | can that application stay in that state forever? |
| 22:39.57 | tomgibara | There is certainly value (in terms of providing smooth operation) in applications not being shutdown on each application transition. |
| 22:40.51 | tomgibara | No, I was thinking that the application would launch (eg. in response to an RSS update), update its state, and then just close, without interrupting the user. |
| 22:42.11 | tomgibara | Anyway, I'm talking from a position of almost total ignorance regarding the iPhone. |
| 22:42.16 | zhobbs | well, I use a service to play media...which makes sense because you want your songs to continue to play when you're doing other stuff |
| 22:43.16 | tomgibara | That could be provided by the application framework too, but its a good example |
| 22:43.20 | zhobbs | but I am not looking forward to apps with services sitting around polling websites, etc |
| 22:44.03 | tomgibara | Any app you wanted to write that (eg) varied the playback based on time/location/motion etc. would be impossible |
| 22:44.20 | tomgibara | - impossible without background processing |
| 22:45.05 | zhobbs | yeah, something like PocketJourney could use a service to automatically play narration based on location |
| 22:45.56 | tomgibara | Unless, an event framework is available to launch applications when location changes. |
| 22:46.18 | zhobbs | there is I think... |
| 22:47.08 | zhobbs | http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/location/LocationManager.html#addProximityAlert(double, double, float, long, android.content.Intent) |
| 22:47.32 | tomgibara | I was thinking of the iPhone not neededing background app processes |
| 22:47.53 | zhobbs | yeah, I actually think not having them isn't all bad |
| 22:48.16 | dmoffett | I am pretty sure you can't have back ground tasks on iPhone but I am still learning the api. |
| 22:48.20 | zhobbs | it's better for the "dummy" user who can't figure out why their battery last 2 hours |
| 22:48.48 | tomgibara | As ever, it's a trade-off - I suppose the iPhone is ensuring that the common cases are covered, rarer cases become more costly (in terms of development and power etc.) |
| 22:49.08 | tomgibara | The danger is always that you misjudge the "common case" |
| 22:49.52 | tomgibara | It is something that has struck me as something that is distinctly missing in the Android APIs... |
| 22:50.09 | zhobbs | tomgibara: push api? |
| 22:50.27 | tomgibara | ...a service that allows you to download data from a URL at 'approximate' intervals or after an 'approximate' delay |
| 22:50.56 | zhobbs | just use an alarm? |
| 22:51.12 | dmoffett | A constant on feature with out running the battery down is a tough problem. |
| 22:51.43 | tomgibara | I'm not knowledgable about mobile development, but it seems to me that switching on the radio to perform intermittent downloads is something that is best aggregated |
| 22:52.17 | dmoffett | http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/09/iphone.push.notification/ |
| 22:52.37 | zhobbs | Ahh, I see what you mean |
| 22:52.48 | tomgibara | eg. an RSS feed wants to download the latest news items, a calendar app wants to monitor for new appointments. They should be able to 'share' the radio for network polling |
| 22:53.08 | zhobbs | hmm, you mean just because you have to wake the phone up? |
| 22:53.13 | dmoffett | If the app can maintain a connection without killing the battery will solve a lot of these cases. |
| 22:53.38 | tomgibara | because you need to wake-up the radio and the processor |
| 22:54.01 | zhobbs | I would only think that would affect battery if the phone was in a sleep mode |
| 22:54.11 | zhobbs | which I guess it might go into very quickly |
| 22:54.33 | tomgibara | I am assuming (in ignorance) that the radio chipsets and subsystems are most efficient when used continuously for periods of time, and not switched-on/off all the time |
| 22:54.59 | zhobbs | hmm, I would think it wouldn't matter...but I'm also ignorant :) |
| 22:55.30 | dmoffett | How does sms perform that functionality? |
| 22:55.51 | zhobbs | it's gotta be "push" |
| 22:56.08 | tomgibara | I think that the phone periodically communicates with the nearby base stations |
| 22:56.25 | tomgibara | It needs to do this because the phone may have moved |
| 22:56.31 | zhobbs | riht |
| 22:56.35 | zhobbs | right |
| 22:56.45 | tomgibara | I think SMS piggybacks onto this network management traffic |
| 22:57.45 | tomgibara | Accessing the 3G network (again I assume) would use a different chipset and different frequencies etc. |
| 22:58.29 | zhobbs | tomgibara: are you working on any phase 2 apps? I thought I heard you were working on cooking capsules some? |
| 22:59.07 | tomgibara | zhobbs: yes some, not much yet |
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| 23:01.18 | dmoffett | So xmpp will not provide some kind of push functionality? |
| 23:01.27 | zhobbs | gtalk can |
| 23:01.39 | zhobbs | sounds like they may bring xmpp back |
| 23:01.49 | zhobbs | but not for version 1 |
| 23:01.59 | AttractiveApe | I thought the chat part of gtalk was xmpp? |
| 23:02.04 | AttractiveApe | Or are they moving to a new system? |
| 23:02.46 | dmoffett | Didn't know xmpp went away. |
| 23:02.46 | AttractiveApe | jasta: did you write that terminal app, by the way? |
| 23:02.57 | zhobbs | dmoffett: yeah, xmpp is gone, it's gtalk now |
| 23:03.13 | zhobbs | in the fireside chat they said they wanted xmpp but couldn't get the security issues worked out |
| 23:03.28 | f00f- | what security issues? |
| 23:03.32 | tomgibara | zhobbs: did they elaborate? |
| 23:03.44 | zhobbs | f00f-: don't know |
| 23:03.45 | f00f- | xmpp.net has certification for federated xmpp |
| 23:04.03 | f00f- | okay, well xmpp is bulky over the phone |
| 23:04.14 | f00f- | i'm looking forward to an open binary protocol |
| 23:04.46 | zhobbs | yeah, I don't want to be dependent on gtalk |
| 23:04.52 | tomgibara | f00f: an open binary protocol for what? |
| 23:04.58 | f00f- | xmpp |
| 23:05.19 | dmoffett | json is much smaller than xml and not freaking binary. |
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| 23:05.51 | f00f- | binary would be best for performance |
| 23:06.09 | f00f- | it needs to be structured so that you can send arbitrary xml stanzas and not need a huge parser |
| 23:06.09 | dmoffett | foof: I think you like pain. :-) |
| 23:06.25 | f00f- | i like speed, but sometimes it cames at a pain :) |
| 23:06.37 | tomgibara | If you have the toolchain, binary is just as human readable as ASCII |
| 23:06.50 | tomgibara | What's plain text after all? |
| 23:07.52 | f00f- | 7 or 8 bits, depending who you ask, of hell :P |
| 23:07.53 | dmoffett | Guess f00f is bringing back nightmares of mainframe binary formats I had to deal with at MCI. Sorry I was having flashbacks. |
| 23:08.01 | f00f- | hahaha |
| 23:08.21 | f00f- | well, i'm just saying XMPP is pretty verbose over the wire |
| 23:08.31 | f00f- | JSON is better, but we can go a bit further too :P |
| 23:08.35 | tomgibara | I designed and implemented a binary XML format for a system once |
| 23:08.58 | dmoffett | fixed field formats with endian conversions. Very painful. |
| 23:09.02 | f00f- | tomgibara: me too. you can really optimize binary XML by storing a lot of semantics in the binary stream, making it easier to serialize and deserialize |
| 23:09.16 | tomgibara | It was for unstructured XML, it put the work on the delivery side, so the stream was small and fast to parse |
| 23:09.54 | tomgibara | Eg. on writing, it maintained a lookup table of element/attr names to compress the stream |
| 23:10.12 | f00f- | yup, and likewise on receiving side |
| 23:10.16 | f00f- | it built up a LUT |
| 23:10.24 | tomgibara | the name was sent the first time and had a code appended, then was referred to by the code thereafter |
| 23:10.40 | f00f- | yeah, maybe we worked on something similar ;) |
| 23:11.03 | tomgibara | String lengths were prepended to the stream Pascal style, so that the receiver could allocate memory efficiently |
| 23:11.17 | dmoffett | f00f could you use compression to achieve the efficiency? |
| 23:11.42 | f00f- | dmoffett: yes definitely, but for mobile it adds some CPU overhead, not sure how much |
| 23:11.51 | tomgibara | f00f: Yep, nice to someone else has validated your design :-) |
| 23:12.01 | f00f- | :D |
| 23:12.42 | tomgibara | dmoffett: the key thing about the approach is that you are taking advantage of redundant structure present in the XML format itself |
| 23:13.02 | tomgibara | It means that you get very "cheap" compression |
| 23:13.07 | dmoffett | I see. |
| 23:13.10 | dmoffett | Cool |
| 23:13.32 | tomgibara | It's not optimal, but fast, and leaves the client with very little parsing to do. |
| 23:14.26 | dmoffett | I will have to revisit binary messaging. |
| 23:15.46 | dmoffett | Mobile development is a whole different beast. |
| 23:16.12 | tomgibara | This is a wire protocol that I haven't completed the first implementation of: http://www.tomgibara.com/projects/fledge/fledge-serial.pdf |
| 23:16.26 | tomgibara | mostly because of moseycode :-/ |
| 23:26.12 | dmoffett | Can't say I understand completely but if it works then cool. |
| 23:27.21 | tomgibara | I didn't even expect anyone to read it :-) |
| 23:27.39 | tomgibara | Basically, it provides a very compact encoding |
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| 23:27.53 | dmoffett | I read bits but I specifically looking for how you handly endian issues. |
| 23:28.18 | tomgibara | And it's flexible about how much of the structure of the message is sent |
| 23:28.36 | dmoffett | Java to java I guess endian is not a problem? |
| 23:29.49 | tomgibara | haha - A silly ommission: it's big endian |
| 23:30.32 | tomgibara | Java's the target, but the serialization is language agnostic |
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| 23:34.27 | dmoffett | Cool |
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