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| 01:15.44 | foo | markf: ping |
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| 02:39.33 | Razec | jasta see you tomorrow |
| 02:39.50 | Razec | muthu cya |
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| 09:15.19 | jess_ | anyone here? |
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| 09:44.41 | rainabba | So I have a working version of Android for my Vouge and diffs for the code from back in January. For me this means Data, Voice, and TouchScreen work, but no audio or bluetooth and very few apps. Anything I can do to get/build a newer version? |
| 09:47.47 | davidw | rainabba, wait until it's open source |
| 10:01.44 | rainabba | Thought the project was and that's the big deal? |
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| 11:57.44 | davidw | rainabba, it's not open source yet |
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| 14:44.06 | Dougie187 | hey does anyone in here use pitivi? |
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| 15:00.32 | sleepydroid | hi - just posted demo on sleepydroid.blogspot.com would appreciate comments/critiques/tips for speeding up this particular demo (TwitterDemo) |
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| 15:27.08 | getoo | k , this is my question , Will android work on a java based phone ( samsung instinct with Sprint) i believe they come with 2GB SDcards |
| 15:27.34 | getoo | i know for sure Sprint is a partner |
| 15:30.10 | Dougie187 | tmobile is a partner too |
| 15:30.26 | Dougie187 | and to answer your question, noone knows yet |
| 15:31.45 | Dougie187 | since it is open source, theoretically it should work. but the main issue is some of the hardware drivers will not be open sourced, so you might have a hell of a time porting android to a non-native device. |
| 15:35.01 | tethridge | I'm hoping that there are android phones that allow you to add SD memory in one form or another |
| 15:35.08 | tethridge | I'm sure there will be |
| 15:35.40 | sleepydroid | there will be because it a point of difference over the iPhone (which as of v2 has no SD slot) |
| 15:36.23 | tethridge | even my free $30 phone from sprint has a micro SD slot |
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| 15:38.14 | sleepydroid | question: are all developer events essentially the same format? |
| 15:40.48 | morrildl | sleepydroid: do you mean in general? |
| 15:41.02 | morrildl | I guess I'd say that JavaOne is somewhat different from WWDC :) |
| 15:41.12 | morrildl | or did you mean in some context? |
| 15:41.18 | morrildl | jumps into the middle of a conversation... |
| 15:41.40 | sleepydroid | hmm I mean google developer events ;) natch |
| 15:41.44 | morrildl | ah |
| 15:41.47 | getoo | thank you guys |
| 15:41.54 | morrildl | Well, I didn't want to assume ;) |
| 15:42.17 | morrildl | sleepydroid: if you mean the "Developer Day" events going on in various cities around the world -- yes they are the same format |
| 15:42.27 | getoo | i think when they realease the OS cellphone providers will also have or release new phones with preinstalled android |
| 15:42.29 | Dougie187 | hey dan. have you heard anything from jason yet? |
| 15:42.33 | sleepydroid | cool - then I need only go as far as London |
| 15:42.43 | sleepydroid | not that I'm against travel |
| 15:42.54 | morrildl | sleepydroid: yeah |
| 15:43.32 | sleepydroid | *thinks |
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| 15:44.18 | Dougie187 | morrildl: have you heard anything from jason yet? |
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| 15:46.54 | jasta | Dougie187: dude, give it up :) |
| 15:47.00 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:47.04 | Dougie187 | but i cant jasta |
| 15:47.08 | Dougie187 | btw, im installing wc3 |
| 15:47.21 | jasta | they have already given you your answer. |
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| 15:50.09 | sleepydroid | who else here is based in UK? |
| 15:53.53 | Dougie187 | jasta: when do you guys play dota? |
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| 16:08.18 | jasta | Dougie187: usually around 10pm PST on weekdays |
| 16:08.24 | jasta | tue/thu usually |
| 16:08.31 | Dougie187 | 10 pm? |
| 16:08.32 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:08.36 | Dougie187 | well im not gonna be playing with you guys |
| 16:08.42 | jasta | what time zone are you in? |
| 16:09.13 | Dougie187 | EST |
| 16:09.16 | Dougie187 | or EDT |
| 16:13.18 | sleepydroid | cya guys - its the end of my working day here |
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| 16:36.15 | Dougie187 | hey jasta, does cedega automatically patch warcraft for you? |
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| 16:48.40 | jasta | Dougie187: no, you just download the patch from blizzard and add a shortcut to it and run |
| 16:48.49 | jasta | Dougie187: we occassionally play around 8pm PST |
| 16:48.57 | jasta | depending on your bed time, that could work |
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| 16:50.29 | Dougie187 | heh, not durring the week it wouldnt |
| 16:50.32 | Dougie187 | on the weekends it could |
| 16:51.17 | jasta | weenie :) |
| 16:51.21 | jasta | what time do you go to bed? |
| 16:51.29 | Dougie187 | 9:30-10 |
| 16:51.35 | jasta | lol are you serious? |
| 16:51.38 | jasta | how old are you!? |
| 16:51.43 | Dougie187 | 23 |
| 16:51.44 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:51.49 | Dougie187 | my wife has to go to work earluy |
| 16:51.49 | jasta | jeez dude :) |
| 16:51.51 | Dougie187 | early |
| 16:52.03 | jasta | so does my gf, i just sleep through her getting ready :) |
| 16:53.22 | Dougie187 | on the weekends we stay up till like 1 |
| 16:53.59 | Dougie187 | plus, im an early morning kinda guy. |
| 16:56.09 | jasta | we don't usually play on weekends :) |
| 16:56.15 | Dougie187 | thats too bad. |
| 16:56.33 | jasta | i have to spend time with my gf on weekends hehe |
| 16:56.36 | jasta | she hates dota ;) |
| 16:56.36 | Dougie187 | hah |
| 16:56.43 | Dougie187 | not during the week though? |
| 16:56.50 | jasta | i play on "geek nights" |
| 16:56.52 | Dougie187 | thats when you get to ignore her. |
| 16:56.53 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:57.12 | jasta | we established this system where i get to pick days during the week to work on coding projects, play video games, etc |
| 16:57.20 | jasta | basically, so she can prepare to be ignored :) |
| 16:57.25 | Dougie187 | thats cool |
| 16:57.30 | jasta | she comes over usually, makes dinner, and reads a book |
| 16:57.57 | Dougie187 | you guys live in different apts? |
| 16:58.01 | Dougie187 | \houses |
| 16:58.15 | jasta | yeah, but its a sham. she's at my house every day of the week |
| 16:58.23 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 16:58.31 | Dougie187 | well, 2 more years and you guys can get married! |
| 16:58.35 | jasta | we just basically pay $500/mo to store her stuff somewhere :( |
| 16:58.58 | jasta | i'd like to move in with her, but i don't want to give up my bachelor pad ;) |
| 16:58.59 | michaelnovakjr_1 | wow $500 |
| 16:59.02 | michaelnovakjr_1 | that's cheap |
| 16:59.23 | jasta | not really |
| 16:59.32 | Dougie187 | how big is the app? |
| 16:59.39 | Dougie187 | apt* |
| 16:59.42 | jasta | it's a house she shares with 2 other girls |
| 16:59.49 | michaelnovakjr_1 | i'm comparing to the NYC market |
| 16:59.55 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 16:59.58 | michaelnovakjr_1 | i have a 2 bedroom apt for $1200 |
| 17:00.01 | Dougie187 | NYC market is bad |
| 17:00.03 | jasta | well yeah, Seattle is totally more awesome |
| 17:00.06 | Dougie187 | yeah i have a friend who has the same thing. |
| 17:00.12 | Dougie187 | well, maybe its a 1 bedroom apt for 1200 |
| 17:00.14 | Dougie187 | but stuff |
| 17:00.15 | Dougie187 | still |
| 17:00.18 | Dougie187 | they pay 1200 |
| 17:00.22 | michaelnovakjr_1 | way expensive |
| 17:00.26 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 17:00.32 | Dougie187 | you should compare to San Fran. |
| 17:00.35 | Dougie187 | or LA |
| 17:00.46 | jasta | SF is not unusual to pay thousands of dollars for just 2 people. |
| 17:01.09 | jasta | my house is 3000 sq ft and we pay $2160 total, for 4 people. |
| 17:01.26 | jasta | we have a rec area upstairs with a pool table, wet bar, ... |
| 17:02.23 | jasta | so you can see why i dont want to move in with my girl :) |
| 17:02.30 | jasta | my rent would go up, and the size of my house would go way down |
| 17:02.54 | Dougie187 | i like how the weather on weather.com is always for the previous hour. |
| 17:03.15 | michaelnovakjr_1 | it is easier to predict that way |
| 17:03.21 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:03.28 | Dougie187 | but it shouldnt be predicting anymore. |
| 17:03.36 | Dougie187 | it should be, stating what happened. |
| 17:03.47 | michaelnovakjr_1 | they haven't gotten the memo |
| 17:03.57 | Dougie187 | well thats too bad then. |
| 17:05.54 | Dougie187 | lunch time |
| 17:05.54 | Dougie187 | brb |
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| 17:35.42 | muthu | irish coffee at irish bank |
| 17:36.04 | muthu | seems to be a good way to start the day |
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| 17:39.04 | muthu | Doubts raised over Android fragmentation - http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39433603,00.htm |
| 17:39.57 | jasta | i bet you look really out of place at that pub :) |
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| 17:40.06 | muthu | jasta: haha |
| 17:40.12 | muthu | nothing strange to me |
| 17:41.20 | romainguy | muthu: is that the bar next to chinatown? |
| 17:41.22 | jasta | well you won't think you look strange there |
| 17:41.29 | jasta | but i think you would :) |
| 17:41.54 | Dougie187 | is SF known for a large irish population? |
| 17:41.57 | muthu | romainguy_: yeah, that's the one |
| 17:41.58 | jasta | at a pub in the morning ordering a drink you just learned about on IRC the day before. yeah, i bet you look out of plac e;) |
| 17:42.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:42.20 | Dougie187 | the pub has wifi? |
| 17:42.21 | muthu | Dougie187: looks like it |
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| 17:42.29 | muthu | there's a lot of irish folks here in SF |
| 17:43.15 | f00f- | so muthu you went to the irish bank? |
| 17:43.17 | muthu | Dougie187: went to fillmore |
| 17:43.23 | Dougie187 | you like it? |
| 17:43.25 | muthu | and the japanese town next to it |
| 17:43.32 | muthu | yeah, nice place |
| 17:43.40 | Dougie187 | did you go into the record shop? |
| 17:43.53 | muthu | not the record shop |
| 17:44.03 | muthu | went to one of the pubs |
| 17:44.09 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:44.15 | Dougie187 | is your SF trip now just a tour of pubs? |
| 17:44.26 | muthu | its a mix of everything |
| 17:44.27 | f00f- | what else is there in SF? |
| 17:44.34 | muthu | yeah right |
| 17:44.54 | muthu | if you live in SF, i'm not sure how you cannot walk into the pubs |
| 17:45.11 | muthu | with all the happy hours in the evenings |
| 17:45.32 | muthu | there's only a few place i haven't visited now |
| 17:45.36 | muthu | like the russian hills |
| 17:45.41 | romainguy | muthu: there are not that many pubs in San Francisco I found |
| 17:45.47 | romainguy | compared to France for instance |
| 17:45.59 | muthu | romainguy_: rest my case, if you are comparing to europse |
| 17:46.11 | muthu | s/europse/europe/g |
| 17:46.32 | muthu | heard a lot of good stories about europe in general |
| 17:46.47 | f00f- | lol |
| 17:47.01 | muthu | netherlands/france/belgium/switzerland |
| 17:47.11 | f00f- | pub_count(EU) >>> pub_count(US) |
| 17:47.18 | muthu | haha |
| 17:47.25 | Dougie187 | nice theres crazy thunder outside and no rain |
| 17:47.25 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 17:47.29 | f00f- | all i can say is: terrace cafe's & bars |
| 17:47.34 | f00f- | those are for the win, period. |
| 17:48.08 | romainguy | I really miss terraces :(( |
| 17:48.15 | romainguy | It's hard to find bars with terraces in SF |
| 17:48.21 | jasta | have any of you ever been to whistler? |
| 17:48.23 | muthu | yeah, i've been looking for one |
| 17:48.25 | romainguy | which sucks because the weather is just so perfect for beers outside |
| 17:48.35 | Dougie187 | jasta: sounds familiar |
| 17:48.35 | muthu | is there any in SF? |
| 17:48.37 | jasta | that's a weird scene. lots of outside bars and restuarants, in the freezing fucking cold :) |
| 17:48.42 | muthu | i really want to go to an open terrace bar |
| 17:48.49 | jasta | they make fires outside and use those expensive outdoor heaters all over |
| 17:48.53 | f00f- | yup romain, i'm surprised why there aren't any terracebars here |
| 17:48.56 | f00f- | must be the political climate |
| 17:49.18 | muthu | f00f-: you have any? |
| 17:49.18 | jasta | and there are lots of clubs, so you see girls in their skanked out club gear freezing cold and walking to a club :) |
| 17:49.27 | Dougie187 | you should make a terrace bar |
| 17:49.35 | f00f- | muthu: no, sorry, i dont own one.... yet :P |
| 17:49.35 | romainguy | jasta: sounds like england to me :)) |
| 17:49.50 | jasta | romainguy: no, not quite. it's literally freezing cold :) |
| 17:50.03 | jasta | whistler is a skiing community, at the base of blackcomb and whistler mountain. |
| 17:50.14 | muthu | f00f-: anything in SF? |
| 17:50.21 | jasta | but its hilarious seeing girls wearing practically nothing walking around in 30 degree weather. |
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| 17:50.34 | muthu | jasta: i don't know how they manage that |
| 17:50.47 | jasta | me neither. the guys are sensibly dressed, wearing coats and layers ;) |
| 17:51.13 | f00f- | haha |
| 17:51.15 | muthu | another thing about SF is |
| 17:51.20 | muthu | there's no allnight club/bar |
| 17:51.26 | muthu | everything closes at 2 |
| 17:51.40 | jasta | muthu: it's that way nearly everywhere in the US |
| 17:51.55 | muthu | i'm really surprise about this |
| 17:51.57 | jasta | except for Vegas and Miami, basically. |
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| 17:52.11 | muthu | NY |
| 17:52.16 | f00f- | 2? there are some that are open past that |
| 17:52.19 | f00f- | iirc they stop serving at 2 |
| 17:52.34 | jasta | muthu: NY doesn't have any places that can serve alcohol past 2, AFAIK. |
| 17:53.08 | muthu | hmm.. is this a recent trend or what? |
| 17:53.18 | jasta | muthu: as i said, most of the US is this way. it's been that way forever. |
| 17:53.24 | muthu | f00f-: some of them are open till 4, on some days |
| 17:53.34 | muthu | like frid, sat |
| 17:53.40 | f00f- | yes |
| 17:53.45 | f00f- | oh so you're looking for something mid-week :) |
| 17:53.51 | muthu | hehe |
| 17:54.03 | muthu | f00f-: you know my problem right |
| 17:54.08 | muthu | i cannot be taking bart at 2 |
| 17:54.15 | muthu | that's a bit scary |
| 17:54.18 | f00f- | right |
| 17:54.21 | f00f- | it won't even run at that time |
| 17:54.25 | jasta | it doesnt even run |
| 17:54.28 | f00f- | last train from the city is like 12:55am |
| 17:54.33 | muthu | correct |
| 17:54.33 | f00f- | from embarcadero or so |
| 17:54.43 | muthu | so if i stay, then i want to stay allnight |
| 17:54.44 | romainguy | jasta: muthu: NY doesn't have any places that can serve alcohol past 2, AFAIK. << that's another disappointing thing about the US, the bars close so early :(( |
| 17:54.58 | jasta | romainguy: except for Vegas hhehe |
| 17:55.04 | jasta | but yeah, it's sort of lame. |
| 17:55.07 | romainguy | but Vegas is in a different realm |
| 17:55.11 | jasta | i have gotten used to it, being that i grew up here, so it doesn't bother me. |
| 17:55.24 | jasta | i mean, it seems sensible ;) |
| 17:55.36 | muthu | but i've always heard, that people party allnight in US |
| 17:55.49 | muthu | in India, everything closes at 11 btw |
| 17:55.50 | jasta | muthu: of course, most nights me and my friends go out we head back to someone's house and hit the bottle :) |
| 17:55.59 | muthu | ha! |
| 17:56.22 | jasta | house parties don't die down usually until about 4 or 5am |
| 17:57.02 | f00f- | Nevada - There is no closing time; bars may stay open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. |
| 17:57.10 | f00f- | Alaska - 5 a.m.; while most cities restrict this further, some do not (primarily smaller Matanuska-Susitna Valley towns), and some villages are dry. |
| 17:57.15 | muthu | nevada is the place to be in |
| 17:57.21 | f00f- | New York - Last call is 4 a.m. |
| 17:57.24 | jasta | like i said muthu, vegas. |
| 17:57.30 | muthu | jasta: right |
| 17:57.32 | f00f- | yeah pretty much |
| 17:57.33 | muthu | oh NY is 4 |
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| 17:57.54 | jasta | muthu: it's not a federal law, so states are free to do what they want. it's just that most choose 2am. |
| 17:58.06 | jasta | most as in, > 90% of them :) |
| 17:58.07 | f00f- | cities can override the law, too |
| 17:58.12 | muthu | i don't understand why in US? |
| 17:58.14 | jasta | can they? |
| 17:58.27 | jasta | muthu: the US is not what you think it is, apparently ;) |
| 17:58.45 | f00f- | i guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_call_(bar_term) |
| 17:59.20 | muthu | jasta: hmm, right |
| 17:59.22 | Dougie187 | yeah anyone can override the laws. |
| 17:59.26 | jasta | you know, in Utah, they don't serve beers >3% alcohol anywhere :) |
| 17:59.27 | Dougie187 | only to make it more strict though |
| 17:59.30 | Dougie187 | they cant make it any looser |
| 17:59.48 | muthu | Utah, WHAT? |
| 17:59.57 | jasta | like i said, Miami is also really late. like 4 or 5am i think |
| 17:59.59 | f00f- | just cross Utah off your itinerary completely muthu |
| 18:00.12 | muthu | i'll never visit utah |
| 18:00.21 | jasta | Utah is the worst state we have :) |
| 18:00.28 | f00f- | iirc, in utah you are only allowed *one* drink with your meal, no more |
| 18:00.28 | Dougie187 | pfft. |
| 18:00.29 | jasta | Worse than ohio, if you can believe it. |
| 18:00.30 | Dougie187 | utah isnt bad. |
| 18:00.31 | muthu | i like SF now |
| 18:00.37 | Dougie187 | Ohio is cool too |
| 18:00.39 | Dougie187 | i like ohio |
| 18:00.52 | jasta | yeah, but you go to bed at 9:30, so of course you like Utah and Ohio :) |
| 18:00.57 | muthu | haha |
| 18:00.58 | Dougie187 | yeah but where else have you been muthu? |
| 18:01.04 | Dougie187 | not on the weekends jasta. |
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| 18:01.15 | Dougie187 | Ohio has kings island. |
| 18:01.16 | muthu | NY, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago |
| 18:01.24 | jasta | ATL |
| 18:01.30 | jasta | i've been to atlanta recently |
| 18:01.34 | jasta | god i hate that place |
| 18:01.40 | Dougie187 | 2 of the 4 suck |
| 18:01.45 | Dougie187 | so you have SF NY and Chicago |
| 18:01.51 | jasta | unless you like waffles and fried chicken at 4am. |
| 18:01.54 | muthu | its more like SF and NY |
| 18:01.55 | Dougie187 | hah |
| 18:02.01 | muthu | these are the 2 places i'll consider |
| 18:02.02 | Dougie187 | Chicago is pretty sweet |
| 18:02.12 | jasta | *cough* Seattle *cough* |
| 18:02.14 | Dougie187 | i use to live close to there |
| 18:02.15 | muthu | NY is so fast |
| 18:02.17 | Dougie187 | Seattle is nice too |
| 18:02.19 | muthu | SF seems to have the balance |
| 18:02.31 | jasta | i'm going to NYC soon-ish. |
| 18:02.34 | muthu | SF - work & fun |
| 18:02.39 | Dougie187 | i enjoy visiting NYX |
| 18:02.40 | muthu | NY - work, work, work |
| 18:02.40 | Dougie187 | NYC |
| 18:02.46 | Dougie187 | lol i cant live in SF or NYC |
| 18:02.48 | Dougie187 | too much for me. |
| 18:03.11 | jasta | i would consider living in like Boston or Chicago |
| 18:03.11 | muthu | i can live in both though |
| 18:03.38 | Dougie187 | i think id take chicago out of those choices. |
| 18:03.43 | Dougie187 | im not a big fan of boston |
| 18:03.54 | Dougie187 | but i dont like living in big cities that much |
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| 18:04.23 | jasta | i may end up in SF just because it's where all the cool jobs are :) |
| 18:04.33 | muthu | jasta: exactly |
| 18:04.37 | Dougie187 | i wouldnt mind living in Boulder |
| 18:04.37 | jasta | but of all the places i've visited, i definitely like Seattle the best :) |
| 18:06.02 | jasta | i didn't even grow up here. i have always lived pretty far outside of Seattle, rarely visiting even. |
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| 18:34.21 | AttractiveApe | jasta: about your tokyo police club question yesterday |
| 18:34.30 | AttractiveApe | they sound a lot like the arcade fire. |
| 18:34.41 | AttractiveApe | but as for that song, I haven't heard that anywhere :p |
| 18:57.27 | jasta | lame |
| 18:57.36 | jasta | im listening to cloud cult now |
| 18:57.46 | jasta | i love thse guys. especially their new album. really great stuff. |
| 18:58.45 | jasta | http://xkcd.org/435/ -- teehee |
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| 19:30.28 | jasta | hmm, management just went into a 4 hour long meeting |
| 19:30.34 | jasta | which means i could leave basically any time i want today :) |
| 19:30.48 | jasta | except, for some reason, i feel like i can't choose now. |
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| 19:56.04 | Dougie187 | i cant figure out how to patch war3 |
| 19:56.16 | Dougie187 | in wine that is |
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| 19:58.17 | jasta | just run the patch exe. |
| 19:58.22 | jasta | what's it doing wrong? |
| 19:59.55 | Dougie187 | im not registered. |
| 19:59.59 | Dougie187 | so i dont have pm stuff |
| 20:00.23 | jasta | you just sent me a msg. |
| 20:00.27 | Dougie187 | you got it? |
| 20:00.48 | jasta | "lol" |
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| 20:17.11 | Dougie187 | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:17.14 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 20:17.21 | Dougie187 | stupid space. |
| 20:19.54 | davidw | time to change it:-) |
| 20:20.18 | Dougie187 | eh, it didnt have my password in it. |
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| 20:20.21 | Dougie187 | thats just the confirmation code |
| 20:21.28 | tethridge | Dougie187, do you listen to rap a lot? |
| 20:21.37 | Dougie187 | hell no |
| 20:21.37 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 20:21.40 | tethridge | what's 187 mean in your username |
| 20:21.55 | Dougie187 | homicide. |
| 20:21.56 | tethridge | 187 on the mutha f*&^% block |
| 20:22.00 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 20:22.08 | Dougie187 | a friend in highschool gave me this screen name. |
| 20:22.11 | Dougie187 | so i kept it. |
| 20:22.16 | Dougie187 | not creative enough to change it |
| 20:22.45 | tethridge | all the short creative ones are taken |
| 20:22.56 | Dougie187 | like tethridge |
| 20:23.09 | tethridge | my normal username is tale |
| 20:23.21 | tethridge | it's been taken for something like 6 years |
| 20:23.47 | Dougie187 | thats too bad |
| 20:23.50 | Dougie187 | so you had to think up a new one |
| 20:24.05 | tethridge | it's just my name |
| 20:24.08 | tethridge | Trey Ethridge |
| 20:24.16 | Dougie187 | heh |
| 20:24.16 | tethridge | I'm really creative |
| 20:24.22 | Dougie187 | thats like my school username |
| 20:24.25 | Dougie187 | djacobsen |
| 20:24.31 | Dougie187 | or Jacobsed |
| 20:24.34 | Dougie187 | depending on which college. |
| 20:24.55 | jasta | I thought you were tridge when you first joined :) |
| 20:25.30 | tethridge | I was tale_ for a while and then I figured I'd register |
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| 21:59.59 | zhobbs | Google IO sessions have been posted: http://www.helloandroid.com/node/585 |
| 22:06.19 | jasta | thats cool that they did that |
| 22:06.51 | zhobbs | yeah, now we know we don't have to pay for next year |
| 22:07.02 | zhobbs | they didn't post keynote or fireside chats |
| 22:07.06 | jasta | i would still go next year. i live close enough and it's good to meet folks |
| 22:07.26 | jasta | i filled out the survey for I/O, my big complaint was that there were no engineers idling around the relevant booths to talk to |
| 22:07.36 | jasta | all those fools from the Q&A session should have been mingling. |
| 22:07.41 | zhobbs | yeah, I enjoyed it...to be honest the sessions weren't the highlights of the trip |
| 22:07.53 | jasta | not for me either, but i fully expected that. |
| 22:07.59 | zhobbs | yeah me too |
| 22:08.03 | muthu | zhobbs: what were the highlight? |
| 22:08.24 | zhobbs | meeting everyone, seeing sf |
| 22:09.04 | muthu | yeah |
| 22:09.13 | zhobbs | flight of the conchords |
| 22:10.17 | Hai-Fai | someone familiar with ipod touch, where are movies located on filesystem |
| 22:10.28 | jasta | http://sites.google.com/site/io/google-gears-for-mobile-power-up-your-mobile-web-app -- this session i missed but really wanted to see |
| 22:10.49 | jasta | glad to have this way to watch it :) |
| 22:12.11 | davidw | the sessions in those things are usually lame - the cool thing is to meet people and talk |
| 22:12.23 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 22:12.25 | muthu | exactly |
| 22:12.34 | zhobbs | I only went to 2 sessions :) |
| 22:12.43 | davidw | sooner or later someone's going to figure out a way to organize a conference to capitalize on that |
| 22:12.45 | jasta | the highlight for me was meeting #android folks and also my "online" friends at Google i've never met in person before |
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| 22:13.35 | muthu | the sessions could have been more user chat friendly |
| 22:13.51 | muthu | i mean the arrangement |
| 22:14.02 | zhobbs | the Q&A at the end of them was torture |
| 22:14.13 | jasta | oh yeah :) |
| 22:14.20 | jasta | impossible to sit through |
| 22:14.23 | jasta | people asked terrible questions ;) |
| 22:14.24 | muthu | Q&A is nice |
| 22:14.27 | f00f- | they need to invite fewer non-devs |
| 22:14.30 | muthu | it lets people interact |
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| 22:14.50 | jasta | my favorite was this old italian guy who was basically yelling at people who asked stupid questions :) |
| 22:14.53 | jasta | he was great |
| 22:15.01 | zhobbs | haha |
| 22:15.02 | jasta | some hardcore python dev |
| 22:15.02 | f00f- | nice |
| 22:16.44 | davidw | Alex Martelli? |
| 22:17.40 | jasta | probably.yueah, thats definitely him :) |
| 22:17.51 | davidw | sleep time for me...ciao |
| 22:17.52 | jasta | err |
| 22:17.55 | jasta | yeah*, :) |
| 22:19.12 | zhobbs | There is a week long traning course for android in sept...I wonder how many people are actually going to be there: http://www.bignerdranch.com/classes/android.shtml |
| 22:19.27 | zhobbs | $3500 including food/lodging |
| 22:20.12 | zhobbs | seems weird to me |
| 22:20.53 | muthu | that's for beginners, i guess |
| 22:21.26 | zhobbs | yeah, I guess if you're boss says "we're going to have to port to android" and you don't know anything it' |
| 22:21.34 | zhobbs | it would get you up to speed quick |
| 22:21.37 | muthu | correct |
| 22:21.49 | muthu | zhobbs: you can do that too - take some classes |
| 22:21.56 | muthu | big money |
| 22:21.56 | jasta | i just don't know what group of engineers can't follow the material online to learn the platform and use it effectively. |
| 22:22.15 | jasta | if you have a full time job and that's what you do for 8 hours, it should not take very long at all. |
| 22:22.16 | muthu | there's a big group which needs training |
| 22:22.24 | jasta | within a month i was feeling very confident with android, and that was all part time. |
| 22:22.30 | zhobbs | jasta: I agree...when I was in college I would only show up for class during tests |
| 22:22.36 | jasta | i doubt anyone else was much different |
| 22:22.47 | muthu | right, training will help you pick up faster |
| 22:22.53 | muthu | learning from others |
| 22:23.09 | zhobbs | sitting there having someone give me an overview of the subject is nothing compared to just reading the material |
| 22:23.23 | jasta | i don't know that i agree, muthu. the android-dev group early on was certainly very active and helpful |
| 22:23.54 | jasta | so paying someone to perform that function for you seemed entirely unnecessary. |
| 22:23.55 | zhobbs | people just learn differently...I prefer reading to learn it |
| 22:24.06 | muthu | right.. that's what experts do |
| 22:24.08 | jasta | i think those types of classes are just for a certain group of people who are unfamiliar with all the other resources available. |
| 22:24.23 | muthu | also for beginning programmers |
| 22:24.32 | jasta | people are used to working in the Microsoft bubble, where documentation doesn't exist or is bad. |
| 22:24.38 | jasta | people who are* |
| 22:24.43 | morrildl | I love that |
| 22:24.52 | morrildl | I have never heard anyone say the Android docs are mediocre |
| 22:25.08 | morrildl | either our docs are awesome, or they suck |
| 22:25.10 | morrildl | hehehehe |
| 22:25.19 | jasta | i think they are quite good, though if they do not improve by launch i wil say that they suck :) |
| 22:25.54 | muthu | the android docs are good |
| 22:26.01 | jasta | said another way, they are very well done given the maturity of Android itself. they do have a long way to go, just like the platform itself. |
| 22:26.09 | muthu | almost everyone were able to get up and running quickly |
| 22:26.35 | morrildl | yeah |
| 22:26.37 | zhobbs | they are good when present...but some stuff is/was undocumented |
| 22:26.49 | jasta | my biggest complaint with the documentation is that it starts out very strong on the core concepts, but becomes weak on the outset. also, worse still, it is wrong in some areas :) |
| 22:26.50 | zhobbs | (ui customization) |
| 22:27.05 | morrildl | zhobbs: yeah that needs to get improved |
| 22:27.13 | jasta | the worst documentated area is certainly the XML magic. |
| 22:27.19 | muthu | the only thing i missed is the resources/id part |
| 22:27.19 | morrildl | that too |
| 22:27.21 | zhobbs | if it wasn't for romain we'd have never figured out how to do selectors and all kinds of UI stuff |
| 22:27.27 | jasta | all of us here understand it well at this point, but that understanding came despite the docs :) |
| 22:27.29 | muthu | yeah the XML magic was a bit too much |
| 22:27.43 | jasta | zhobbs: Romain and my reverse engineering the binary XML format :P |
| 22:27.49 | morrildl | yeah that's pretty much where we already knew we needed work :) |
| 22:27.58 | muthu | jasta: you were a great help with your reverse engg thingy |
| 22:28.30 | muthu | if the source code was available, it would have been perfect |
| 22:28.44 | zhobbs | but in the end I guess it's good romain is spending endless hours getting an extra fps on listview instead of endless hours of docs |
| 22:29.28 | jasta | zhobbs: most companies do not have their main engineers producing the lion's share of documentation btw :) |
| 22:29.41 | jasta | the APIs and systems are usually designed at the level of the documentation first, then implemented to that spec. |
| 22:30.26 | zhobbs | jasta: actually they're just waiting for their summer interns to show up and start documenting :) |
| 22:30.33 | jasta | hehe ;) |
| 22:30.50 | jasta | exactly |
| 22:31.24 | jasta | but still, as I said originally Dan, the API docs are as mature and sophisticated as the platform itself. hopefully both improve simultaneously :) |
| 22:31.57 | romainguy | jasta: the worst documentated area is certainly the XML magic. << I'm sure some features have never been even seen by most Android developers |
| 22:32.00 | muthu | to give credit, the docs were outstanding |
| 22:32.10 | romainguy | like how to draw a circular gradient in a donut shape from XML |
| 22:32.37 | muthu | and to imagine the tabs were deprecated! |
| 22:32.44 | muthu | almost all the apps were using tabs |
| 22:32.56 | zhobbs | we have interactive XML documentation in the form of "hey romain, how do I..." |
| 22:33.13 | jasta | romainguy: i'm certain of that as well, but that's just reinforcing my point :) |
| 22:33.20 | romainguy | I know |
| 22:33.31 | romainguy | well the problem is that we engineers need to sleep from time to time :) |
| 22:34.09 | romainguy | and you should be happy, a couple of weeks before M3, the View class didn't have any documentation for instance :) |
| 22:34.23 | muthu | haha |
| 22:34.35 | zhobbs | hah |
| 22:34.39 | jasta | so, to segue for a minute, i am curious if Google intends to shift their team focus on Android after initial launch |
| 22:34.59 | jasta | specifically, will the team restructure at this point in some way when it transfers to the open source community? |
| 22:35.46 | zhobbs | I've been wondering about how the "direction" will be controlled |
| 22:36.13 | jasta | the open source community will certainly feel entitled to "drive" the project, and until now the project has not had a structure that could support that. |
| 22:36.29 | jasta | for example, there are few engineers interacting with the community. |
| 22:37.38 | jasta | i hope that Google does not presume the community to be there just to submit patches for work Google wants done... |
| 22:38.24 | muthu | jboss was very successful in that |
| 22:38.32 | jasta | zhobbs: i'm betting this is one of those areas they can't discuss, which should have us preparing for disappointment. |
| 22:38.38 | duey | jasta: I think you are over estimating the input open source communities have |
| 22:38.53 | muthu | android can take the jboss approach |
| 22:39.16 | duey | I highly doubt that will be any svn committing power to the public |
| 22:39.16 | jasta | duey: in more conventional open source projects, the input is governed by your willingness and ability to work. |
| 22:39.18 | duey | for example |
| 22:39.29 | jasta | duey: that would warrant forking. |
| 22:40.13 | duey | you can fork it all you want, 99% of the customers won't see your fork |
| 22:40.23 | duey | 99. |
| 22:40.25 | jasta | unless i am misunderstanding you. few projects have *general* SVN commit access. contributors are granted access as is necessary/appropriate. |
| 22:40.26 | duey | 99.999% |
| 22:40.46 | jasta | duey: perhaps i over-estimate the open source community, but you underestimate it. |
| 22:40.48 | duey | ok im just going on what ive heard on previous google techtalks about making things open source |
| 22:41.24 | muthu | not many people really contribute in opensource projects |
| 22:41.31 | jasta | there is nothing to preclude OHA members and other parties to adopt a forked version if it demonstrates great improvement in flexibility and power. |
| 22:41.33 | duey | ^ 100% correct |
| 22:41.39 | duey | er muthu is correct* |
| 22:41.50 | jasta | yes, but muthu's statement has no bearing on what we are talking about. |
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| 22:42.21 | jasta | even if just 1 person contributes all of the open source code, that person should be given commit access and a place of similar standing among the Google engineers. |
| 22:42.25 | muthu | google having some control over android would be good on the long run |
| 22:42.29 | jasta | otherwise, the project is not in any way open. |
| 22:42.43 | jasta | muthu: Having control is not the same as Having total control. |
| 22:43.03 | muthu | right, so that's why they are open sourcing |
| 22:43.03 | romainguy | jasta: you have a very hostile stance |
| 22:43.08 | jasta | Linus, for example, has control over Linux. But not total control. He does, afterall, have to grant others commit access. |
| 22:43.37 | jasta | romainguy: Open source is not about asking others to do your work for free. |
| 22:43.57 | romainguy | jasta: it's also not about asking a company that invested a lot in a project to surrender it in the wild |
| 22:44.05 | romainguy | both approaches are extreme at best |
| 22:44.57 | jasta | romainguy: The point is that the community will not be interested in some bastard version of what they are used to. Openness is about sharing control and privilege |
| 22:45.14 | jasta | Not granting it wildly to the point that you destroy your IP, but sharing it regardless. |
| 22:46.06 | jasta | It is not acceptable or beneficial to do less. If that is Google's intent, I think we can safely predict the failure of the project's openness. Few public contributors, and little outside innovation. |
| 22:46.22 | duey | ... |
| 22:46.35 | duey | I think you need to take a look at many open source projects around today |
| 22:46.41 | romainguy | agreed |
| 22:46.41 | duey | because most of them are private |
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| 22:46.58 | romainguy | And even amongst big, popular Open Source projects, contributors are not that numerous |
| 22:47.05 | muthu | yeah, you can't just gain committ access without really contributing |
| 22:47.08 | romainguy | Now I'm not defending either approach |
| 22:47.13 | duey | very few projects get a decent contributer base |
| 22:47.31 | jasta | Please do not insult me by feeding me a lecture on what open source is. |
| 22:47.37 | duey | i for example have contributed to solr-lucene once |
| 22:47.47 | duey | the change i submitted was wanted by heaps of people |
| 22:48.02 | duey | but im not contributing anything else.. |
| 22:48.12 | jasta | I am familiar with both administration of, and contribution toward, open source projects. |
| 22:48.25 | romainguy | jasta: And you're not the only one |
| 22:48.39 | jasta | Most projects ultimately structure around few, but frequent, committers, and those committers expect the same level of privilege and opportunity as the others. |
| 22:48.51 | romainguy | Right |
| 22:49.01 | romainguy | So did Google announce they would not do that? No. |
| 22:49.05 | romainguy | Nothing was announced, at all |
| 22:49.11 | jasta | Favoritism, privatization, and blind refusal to cooperate lead to forks. |
| 22:50.44 | jasta | romainguy: Forgive me then for scaring easily, but the trust in this relationship as it stands has already been broken. |
| 22:51.03 | romainguy | It's no reason to spread FUD :) |
| 22:51.17 | tomgibara | jasta: I think open-source projects are too varied to make many simple useful generalizations |
| 22:51.27 | f00f- | in the end, manufacturers will have the final say, so you won't have any control anyway, open or closed. |
| 22:51.39 | tomgibara | The only one I can think of is that most of the work in any project is done by the few |
| 22:51.56 | jasta | f00f-: That depends how you interpret control. Ubuntu is a fork of Debian, and is sponsored by Dell. |
| 22:52.21 | jasta | Ubuntu had no ability to force that choice, but they encouraged it by being better :) |
| 22:52.36 | f00f- | well, having your 'patches' accepted into the main code stream, which would hit devices one day |
| 22:52.38 | tomgibara | In general, I think that most people involved in an open source project are happy to tag along, so long as they feel that those in control are doing whats good by the project |
| 22:53.00 | tomgibara | I don't think that most developers care beyond that |
| 22:53.18 | tomgibara | Of course, the people on this channel aren't 'most developers' |
| 22:53.27 | jasta | tomgibara: Perhaps, but do appreciate that there are certain hot-buttons that will quickly tear a project apart. |
| 22:53.37 | f00f- | like you jasta? :P |
| 22:53.39 | duey | I imagine the best approach would be to allow people to submit patches, have those patches reviewed by googlers and then get accepted/denied |
| 22:53.46 | jasta | Arbitrarily refusing patches, for one. |
| 22:54.07 | f00f- | every projects needs a patch approval/rejection policy stated upfront, before people waste their time |
| 22:54.15 | muthu | right |
| 22:54.30 | jasta | f00f-: Of course, but every project also must ultimately appreciate that the status of patchers can eventually raise to committers. |
| 22:54.51 | duey | jasta: what about security reviews? code reviews? |
| 22:54.54 | jasta | Just because you have commit access doesn't mean you can go around destroying the code. You can still have your work reviewed. |
| 22:55.28 | jasta | duey: I personally reviewed code that was submitted to both of my major projects, specifically looking for security implications. |
| 22:55.44 | jasta | I imagine that Google also has that same level of monitoring even for their engineers. |
| 22:55.54 | jasta | If Romain commits a fix to adb that opens a local root exploit, SOMEONE will find it. |
| 22:56.23 | romainguy | Code reviews are very important at Google |
| 22:56.24 | f00f- | thus romain has no business in non-GUI code :) |
| 22:56.28 | duey | yes but its probably a lot easier to manage |
| 22:56.43 | romainguy | f00f-: I did checked in code in adb ;-) |
| 22:56.49 | romainguy | -ed |
| 22:56.49 | jasta | duey: Neither situation is easy to manage. Companies and open source projects both have huge challenges. |
| 22:56.54 | f00f- | hehe |
| 22:56.58 | jasta | Challenges that both overcome, if they are to be successful. |
| 22:57.15 | jasta | f00f-: I said that because I knew that he was out of his element working in C/C++ code at one point :P |
| 22:57.26 | f00f- | ah heh |
| 22:57.35 | romainguy | I also spent the last 2 hours debugging C++ and ASM :p |
| 22:57.41 | romainguy | So screw you guys :) |
| 22:57.48 | duey | suck :( |
| 22:57.50 | jasta | You see, Romain is probably a greater security risk than any of us would be :) |
| 22:57.56 | f00f- | oh my, you are beating all of our expectations! |
| 22:57.57 | duey | hahaha |
| 22:59.10 | romainguy | maybe I should stop fixing your bugs :) |
| 23:00.09 | muthu | romainguy_: you should be like a android evangelist |
| 23:00.22 | jasta | Anyway, I am getting to the point where I think it starts making sense for this community to demand some information about what's going on with Android. |
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| 23:00.37 | jasta | I phrased that very strangely, but still :) |
| 23:01.32 | jasta | This BS that Jason pulled a couple of weeks ago was really bad, and I'm slightly annoyed with myself for dismissing it. |
| 23:02.12 | muthu | jasta: what's the BS? |
| 23:02.39 | jasta | Promising clarification and answers regarding the SDK situation, and delivering none. And then implicitly canceling that an announcement would be made at all, ever. |
| 23:03.14 | jasta | He was placating, and I don't think I got as pissed off about it as I should have. |
| 23:03.57 | tomgibara | jasta: or he wanted to give an announcement, and then was prevented from doing so? |
| 23:04.12 | jasta | tomgibara: What he wants should be different from what he says, then. |
| 23:04.21 | matt444 | android support UMA? |
| 23:05.00 | jasta | tomgibara: It is not his job to overcommit the company he represents. |
| 23:05.16 | tomgibara | jasta: I totally agree |
| 23:05.29 | muthu | my feeling is goog would have a lot of control over android.. may be that's not too bad |
| 23:05.36 | tomgibara | But making mistakes happens doesn't it? |
| 23:05.37 | jasta | matt444: If by UMA you mean bluetooth and wi-fi, then yes, but not in the current SDK. |
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| 23:05.53 | jasta | tomgibara: Sure, but don't be naive. That was no simple mistake. |
| 23:06.20 | jasta | They have both been peddling the same shit that they need to be better at addressing the community, and that they will get information out from now on. |
| 23:06.22 | tomgibara | jasta: I just try not to be judgemental |
| 23:06.23 | jasta | And that there will be a road map. |
| 23:06.27 | matt444 | jasta: UMA is the carry over from gsm to wi-fi. don't think it has anything to do with bluetooth |
| 23:06.38 | jasta | It should be obvious to everyone, including them, that it is not going to happen. |
| 23:07.04 | tomgibara | (I always try to assume that I'm reasoning from a position of almost complete ignorance) |
| 23:07.04 | f00f- | matt444: we don't know yet. if you're not a developer, ew have no answers. consumer devices are months away. |
| 23:07.37 | matt444 | f00f-: ok, so this is a hardware issue then. thank you |
| 23:08.11 | jasta | tomgibara: if you were going to assume that, why reason at all? |
| 23:08.49 | tomgibara | jasta: I certainly have no idea what is happening inside the Android team, so judging the actions of individuals in that team is rather difficult |
| 23:08.54 | jasta | anyway, if i'm being realistic, i should appreciate that Google doesn't care what I think :) |
| 23:09.04 | tomgibara | It's easy to think that you know more than you do |
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| 23:10.22 | f00f- | matt444: both: hardware support for 802.11 for example, plus software support for 3GPP GAN standard |
| 23:10.52 | jasta | tomgibara: Sure, but there is a penalty to being too naive :) |
| 23:11.19 | tomgibara | jasta: in my experience, fewer assumptions always improves the quality of my reasoning :-) |
| 23:11.55 | jasta | I suppose my mistake here is not looking at Google's history :) |
| 23:12.02 | tomgibara | jasta: I'm not being naive, I'm not saying that everyone's motives are good. I'm just saying we don't know. |
| 23:12.03 | jasta | They have existing open source projects, I wonder how they are being managed. |
| 23:12.35 | jasta | Perhaps that will tell us something about the direction Android takes. |
| 23:12.49 | muthu | jasta: correct |
| 23:12.53 | jasta | Or maybe I should just sit here on my lazy butt for 6 months. |
| 23:13.52 | jasta | anyway, work day is over for me. later folks. |
| 23:14.43 | muthu | wow, jasta gets off at 4 |
| 23:37.47 | f00f- | what a slacker |
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| 23:40.44 | jasta | total slacker :) |
| 23:41.09 | muthu | http://picasaweb.google.com/developerday/GoogleIO200802/photo#5208556379229328258 |
| 23:42.41 | dmoffett | Damn who is that ugly guy and he must be extremely lucky. :-0 |
| 23:43.38 | f00f- | HAHAHA |
| 23:46.37 | muthu | that's a great snap |
| 23:47.23 | dmoffett | maybe they will use it on the cover of next's years event. :-) |
| 23:47.56 | jasta | i wonder where that picture of me that jason took went |
| 23:48.03 | jasta | he snapped a photo right in the middle of me yelling at them |
| 23:48.07 | jasta | so i must look really pissed off |
| 23:49.55 | muthu | these are the favorites |
| 23:50.05 | muthu | may be they have a full collection somewhere |
| 23:50.22 | f00f- | hahah yeah |
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