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| 04:54.40 | trigatch4 | holler |
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| 05:39.46 | jasta | yo |
| 06:16.11 | trigatch4 | yo |
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| 07:21.01 | jasta | yawn |
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| 08:26.19 | trigatch4 | anyone alive? |
| 08:48.09 | trigatch4 | knock knock |
| 08:48.15 | jasta | yes? |
| 08:51.06 | trigatch4 | whattup man |
| 08:51.28 | trigatch4 | i thought i was the only one alive... its almost 5am here and i havent gone to bed yet. debating just staying awake. hmmmmm |
| 08:52.03 | jasta | 1:51am here |
| 08:52.06 | jasta | and i think you should go to bed |
| 08:52.40 | trigatch4 | haha probably a good idea |
| 08:52.43 | trigatch4 | quick question... |
| 08:53.14 | trigatch4 | people from G have said they're coming out with a way for all the developers who submitted apps to showcase their stuff with some type of online portal |
| 08:53.26 | trigatch4 | have developers been contacted about something like this yet? |
| 08:54.15 | jasta | trigatch4: no. |
| 08:54.22 | jasta | might have just been an empty claim |
| 08:54.28 | trigatch4 | cool |
| 08:54.34 | trigatch4 | because i'm coming out with something |
| 08:55.20 | trigatch4 | hopefully i'll have a basic version running by monday and be able to start contacting developers |
| 08:55.48 | trigatch4 | it sucks that something doesn't already exist, its fun to look at all the different apps |
| 08:55.55 | trigatch4 | but there isnt one place to see them |
| 08:56.58 | romainguy_ | jasta: might have just been an empty claim << could you stop with the FUD? |
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| 08:57.22 | jasta | i didn't start the FUD, romain. |
| 08:57.48 | romainguy_ | you certainly keep spreading it to whoever sets foot (bits?) here :) |
| 08:58.04 | jasta | if i recall correctly, it comes from the extremely unpredictable behaviour of Google. |
| 08:58.22 | jasta | only because Google has not felt it necessary to make their decision public. |
| 08:58.39 | jasta | I feel like other community members have the right to know what we know, as a result of our privileged contact with ADC winners. |
| 09:01.02 | trigatch4 | well, i don't think it was an empty claim... |
| 09:01.26 | trigatch4 | it seems like Google has just decided not to release anything until it is PERFECT in their eyes |
| 09:01.38 | trigatch4 | but while everyone is waiting, people are growing restless |
| 09:01.43 | trigatch4 | at least, thats how i see it |
| 09:03.09 | jasta | trigatch4: That's one interpretation, although it fails to appreciate that winners were asked to sign an NDA, specifically barring them from posting screenshots, discussing new features, or posting performance benchmarks for 3 years. |
| 09:04.43 | trigatch4 | 3 years? is that an exaggeration? |
| 09:04.52 | jasta | trigatch4: No, it is in the NDA that they signed. |
| 09:05.13 | jasta | There is no clause which ammends the term, either. Not, "until it is released", but rather, 3 years. |
| 09:05.16 | trigatch4 | that makes no sense. if android is out by the end of 2008, there should be no need to have the NDA last any longer. |
| 09:05.23 | jasta | It has been said, outside of the contract, that they intended to include "until the public release" but of course, that was not added. |
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| 09:05.44 | jasta | I suspect it is a glaring omission of their legal dept, but who knows. |
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| 09:06.04 | jasta | Surprisingly, people actually signed that crud. |
| 09:06.07 | trigatch4 | is there a copy of the NDA floating around anywhere do you know? |
| 09:06.12 | jasta | then complained about that clause after the fact. |
| 09:06.22 | trigatch4 | if you were a winner, i don't think many felt they had a choice |
| 09:06.25 | jasta | trigatch4: No, although I witnessed an interchange between several of the winners and Dan Morrill at I/O. |
| 09:06.27 | trigatch4 | 25,000 bucks or go away |
| 09:06.39 | jasta | in which this 3 year term was discused. |
| 09:06.47 | trigatch4 | thats we tall did |
| 09:06.49 | jasta | Of course you have a choice. Contact their legal department and have your contract ammended. |
| 09:07.02 | jasta | What? |
| 09:07.06 | trigatch4 | retarded |
| 09:07.57 | jasta | Lol, and Romain left. |
| 09:08.08 | jasta | Take a look around trigatch4, where did all the Google employees go? |
| 09:08.18 | jasta | Jason and Dan haven't been here for weeks. |
| 09:08.23 | jasta | Romain is barely saying anything. |
| 09:08.46 | jasta | You don't think that perhaps there's just a little bit of shame over at Google over what happened here? :) |
| 09:09.31 | trigatch4 | shame? |
| 09:09.31 | trigatch4 | depends on what level |
| 09:09.31 | jasta | That maybe it's not just "we want it to be perfect", but rather "we mismanaged the crap out of this." |
| 09:09.31 | trigatch4 | i dont think anyone at google is ashamed of android in the least |
| 09:10.09 | jasta | I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of, technically speaking. |
| 09:10.25 | jasta | However, the politics that they are not involved in are certainly something to be ashamed of. |
| 09:10.41 | trigatch4 | there should be more communication, i agree |
| 09:10.50 | jasta | This project has been mismanaged with regard to the community. There is no doubt about it. |
| 09:11.18 | jasta | And I think, rightfully so, the Google engineers at the bottom are sick of the community complaining. |
| 09:11.21 | trigatch4 | yeah, thats understandable. i wouldn't know that as much since i'm not a developer seeking answers and such. |
| 09:11.47 | jasta | But that their annoyance is only an echo of our extreme frustration. |
| 09:12.44 | jasta | Their behaviour of late has led me to have serious doubts over the trust I would place in Google's ability to manage this project. To date, they have done nothing like it, and there is nothing credible about the organization in general which tells me they should be able to handle something like this. |
| 09:13.29 | trigatch4 | From what I've been told, all there effort is going into completing and polishing the product. Everything else has taken a backseat. |
| 09:13.41 | jasta | trigatch4: What else is there? |
| 09:14.12 | jasta | Do realize we are talking about two different groups within Google. |
| 09:14.26 | jasta | There are the engineers, who simply do their job and crank out code as they would regardless of these politics. |
| 09:14.28 | trigatch4 | The communication you are talking about. |
| 09:14.54 | jasta | trigatch4: Again, two different groups. |
| 09:15.21 | jasta | The other group, which should be responsible for project management, is free to spend their energies interacting with the community |
| 09:15.32 | jasta | For example, Dan Morrill's job description is developer advocate. He is to interact with the communities outside of Google, and relate that internally. |
| 09:15.58 | trigatch4 | so where is he is your question? |
| 09:15.58 | jasta | He has not posted or revealed information to date not because he is busy working on getting Android out the door, but because politically he was told not to. |
| 09:16.00 | trigatch4 | haha |
| 09:16.09 | jasta | No, I know where he is. |
| 09:16.19 | trigatch4 | wheres that |
| 09:16.33 | jasta | He's avoiding a community which has questions he can't answer. |
| 09:17.19 | jasta | I don't think for any moment that Romain, Dan, Jason, ...anyone engineer at Google, is actively being malicious withholding privileged information from a community hungry for it. |
| 09:17.45 | trigatch4 | What is Romain's title? Also a developer advocate? |
| 09:18.14 | jasta | No, Romain is an engineer, specifically working on the UI framework's implementation within Android. |
| 09:18.28 | jasta | Romain is, actually, the only engineer which even gives the community the time of day. |
| 09:18.49 | jasta | Though he has been extremely helpful, he has done so on his own accord, without instruction from Google. |
| 09:19.43 | jasta | Google has demonstrated that their short-term strategy for Android has not been to cater to general open source developer community, despite the conflicting message their marketing department has put out. |
| 09:19.53 | trigatch4 | yeah, you'd figure it should be someone's FT job to be responding to the community 24/7 |
| 09:20.04 | jasta | And there is. |
| 09:20.20 | trigatch4 | they are overpaid |
| 09:20.21 | jasta | Take a look through the android-developers blog. There are only like 4 posters. |
| 09:20.24 | jasta | Many of those posts are from Dan. |
| 09:20.42 | jasta | His job is to respond to the community and interact with them. As he does on other projects than just Android. |
| 09:20.58 | jasta | That said, he has been told that he is not at liberty to make announcements. |
| 09:21.02 | jasta | He cannot create a road map. |
| 09:21.07 | jasta | He cannot explain the NDA. |
| 09:21.29 | jasta | He cannot clarify any of the troubling issues that have been generated from this community. |
| 09:21.47 | jasta | And not because he is unable to, of course these should all be simple tasks. |
| 09:22.11 | jasta | He is not permitted to. |
| 09:22.13 | jasta | We have come back to my generalization: this project is being mismanaged with regard to the community. |
| 09:22.26 | jasta | Perhaps the OHA priorities have been well taken care of, but those do not concern us so directly. |
| 09:23.15 | trigatch4 | Yeah... well... wish there was something that could be done but everyone is really just at the mercy of the G. |
| 09:23.37 | trigatch4 | Thats part of the reason I'm putting together this application directory... in addition to feeding my own interest/addiction... |
| 09:23.47 | trigatch4 | They said there were WELL more than 50 that deserved to win... |
| 09:23.58 | trigatch4 | but only those 50 have really gotten any credit or attention by google |
| 09:24.30 | trigatch4 | so hopefully i'll be able to at least give some of these people with kick ass apps a unified platform to speak from |
| 09:25.01 | trigatch4 | but, as you have said in the past, if they cannot continue to develop their app because of SDK restrictions it may make that somewhat pointless |
| 09:26.46 | jasta | And I think it is being mismanaged not due to malice, but inexperience. Google is not a major open source player, and they have never had to deal with the mobile industry. |
| 09:26.48 | jasta | trigatch4: Right, which is why I express that, perhaps not everything they claim should be taken for face value. |
| 09:26.48 | jasta | Instead, I encourage members of this community to realize that being at the mercy of a major American corporation is not perhaps the wisest position to place yourself. |
| 09:26.48 | jasta | Perhaps taking a step back for now is a wiser plan. Let's see where this platform goes, let's see where management lets us go with it. |
| 09:26.51 | jasta | Even as an open project, for example, we may not have nearly the level of flexibility we hope or expect. Ultimately, the carriers and manufacturers are free to do as they wish. The politics "behind the scenes" of why patch A was rejected might never be well explained to the public. |
| 09:26.55 | jasta | And this is a precarious position for any open source developer to be in. |
| 09:27.35 | jasta | I have decided not to directly develop my Android components moving forward simply because I cannot predict what Google will come up with next. |
| 09:27.46 | jasta | I am unwilling to be at the mercy of a machine that I do not understand. |
| 09:27.59 | jasta | And, most importantly, cannot predict. |
| 09:28.22 | jasta | Technically speaking, how do I know if feature A I depend on gets changed so much I have to redesign my app? Or feature B improves things so much I *should* redesign my app. |
| 09:28.30 | jasta | Engineers can't work in that environment! |
| 09:28.31 | trigatch4 | this seems like a catch 22: "Perhaps taking a step back for now is a wiser plan. Let's see where this platform goes, let's see where management lets us go with it." |
| 09:28.49 | jasta | I don't mean for years. |
| 09:28.59 | trigatch4 | because without the developers, the platform won't go anywhere to begin with |
| 09:29.15 | jasta | I mean until they start interacting with us again. Until we have the dialog and trust that we started with restored. |
| 09:29.33 | jasta | trigatch4: Right, but why should it go anywhere if they won't trust us? |
| 09:30.01 | trigatch4 | i think they are just being overly careful |
| 09:30.09 | trigatch4 | i think a lot of it is probably proprietary stuff |
| 09:30.37 | jasta | I'm sure that it is, but do you realize that they already had proprietary stuff in their tree up until now? |
| 09:30.40 | trigatch4 | they don't want apple, limo, etc... to have their complete blueprint |
| 09:30.54 | jasta | You don't think it's beyond a company like Google to maintain their branch in such a way that they can easily separate public versus private? |
| 09:31.12 | trigatch4 | but with this there are SO many different levels |
| 09:31.16 | trigatch4 | its not so black/white |
| 09:31.21 | trigatch4 | i'm not disagreeing with you |
| 09:31.40 | trigatch4 | i'm just saying... it sucks from every angle |
| 09:32.19 | jasta | I can't speak for the community, but I personally am just pissed that we don't get simple bug fixes and new APIs. |
| 09:32.19 | jasta | As I said, I do not believe (though I could be wrong) that there is any malace behind the scenes. |
| 09:32.19 | jasta | Merely that Google is a company way outside of its element here. |
| 09:32.41 | jasta | They are contending with the open source world and the mobile world at each end. |
| 09:33.56 | trigatch4 | It might be more frustrating if they kept updating the APIs and bugs during the process but they fixed one bug which created another then added a feature which created another bug, etc... |
| 09:34.04 | jasta | And, as a result, perhaps they've mismanaged some elements on one (or both) sides of the table. |
| 09:34.07 | trigatch4 | neverending process of putting out fires for your app |
| 09:34.19 | trigatch4 | as opposed to getting one huge update |
| 09:34.26 | jasta | trigatch4: Except that, to date, they have only done that. |
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| 09:34.28 | trigatch4 | and just developing for the comxpletely updated version |
| 09:34.30 | jasta | Let's look at the time line shall we: |
| 09:34.39 | jasta | M3 was released, shortly after a bug fix release as made. |
| 09:34.43 | jasta | Then another, with some new features. |
| 09:35.02 | jasta | Then M5, changing the UI, many APIs, and introducing lots of new features. |
| 09:35.06 | jasta | Seemingly changing the direction of the whole project. |
| 09:35.18 | trigatch4 | that severe? |
| 09:35.25 | trigatch4 | changing the direction of the whole project? |
| 09:35.27 | jasta | So, what track record do they have of protecting our sanity? |
| 09:36.20 | trigatch4 | btw what does FUD mean |
| 09:36.24 | trigatch4 | which romain said |
| 09:36.32 | jasta | trigatch4: I can say honestly that I had a different idea for where Android was going from M3 to M5. Perhaps that clarity was more the result of immersing myself in the community, but still, many changes surprised me greatly. |
| 09:36.39 | jasta | For example, the formal transition to GTalk led me to believe they had some "big picture" idea of how GTalk would fit, perhaps replacing SMS for a messaging and alert mechanism within Android. |
| 09:36.51 | jasta | trigatch4: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. |
| 09:37.00 | trigatch4 | ah |
| 09:37.21 | jasta | But to my GTalk example, they have obviously not explained that idea. They just toss out some code leaving developers scratching their heads. |
| 09:37.51 | trigatch4 | couldn't you attribute it to the dynamic nature of what they're trying to do at the moment as well? |
| 09:37.52 | jasta | They change the UI so that it's all touch screen sensitive, but there's no soft keyboard? So again, the developers are thinking "Ok, so we assume the device has a keyboard, but also a large touch screen?" |
| 09:38.09 | trigatch4 | i mean... friendconnect, opensocial |
| 09:38.13 | jasta | trigatch4: I could, only if the project is being mismanaged. There is that theme again. |
| 09:38.20 | jasta | Dan told us once that their requirements "change on a weekly basis" |
| 09:38.35 | jasta | which means, someone REALLY FUCKING SCREWED UP! |
| 09:39.02 | jasta | healthy projects at healthy companies do not change their general marketing strategy or technical direction so suddenly. |
| 09:39.36 | jasta | So, it is more likely instead that the engineers are simply not "in the loop", but these decisions were made months before by management and only handed down when they felt it necessary to do so. |
| 09:39.43 | trigatch4 | are others as vocal/opinionated about this as you? |
| 09:40.01 | jasta | Do you mean are there others, or are most this way? |
| 09:40.07 | trigatch4 | are most |
| 09:40.11 | trigatch4 | i know there are others |
| 09:40.25 | jasta | No, I don't think most developers in the community either feel this way, or are as loud about it. |
| 09:40.51 | jasta | However, my purpose for being so vocal is because I think a large segment of the community is not aware of a lot of these issues. |
| 09:40.53 | trigatch4 | obviously you've expressed this to romain, dan and jason... what do they say? |
| 09:40.57 | trigatch4 | just that they can't say anything? |
| 09:41.07 | jasta | Yes, repeatedly. |
| 09:41.27 | jasta | Google has made no announcement about any of this. In fact, it was hard even to get Dan to *confirm* any of it. |
| 09:41.38 | jasta | The NDA issue, the release schedule, the reason why there's no road map, the lack of direction, none of it. |
| 09:41.58 | jasta | They are tightlipped to the point where developers, such as myself, feel adrift. |
| 09:42.44 | trigatch4 | what are the chances i could get you to do a guest post on phandroid about this? |
| 09:42.53 | trigatch4 | kind of like, "an open letter to google" |
| 09:43.10 | jasta | No idea what's happening, no idea what's coming next. We've been totally isolated from their process. Which is fine, had they not advertised this platform as being something of the opposite. |
| 09:43.38 | trigatch4 | your POV kind of amazes me |
| 09:43.46 | jasta | Well, I've already posted on my own blog, which appeared syndicated on planetandroid.com |
| 09:43.52 | jasta | How so? |
| 09:44.41 | jasta | For the record, I don't see myself as spreading the FUD nearly as much as I see that I am advertising it. |
| 09:45.11 | trigatch4 | just because I'm not in a position to have strong feelings one way or the other. It's like looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... you can understand each sides' reasoning to why they "deserve" the land and both sides seem right and neither wrong. |
| 09:45.25 | jasta | It's not my message, I'm just carrying it along. It's Google's message. |
| 09:45.34 | trigatch4 | And to a degree it is because both have a claim to what they demand and a right to it... and when you hear it from their mouth it makes sense. |
| 09:45.55 | trigatch4 | i don't know if that made any sense |
| 09:46.02 | jasta | Well, I can say proudly that I am speaking as a developer who fully embraced the platform, and built something quite significant for it. |
| 09:46.06 | trigatch4 | I didn't know you had a blog |
| 09:46.08 | trigatch4 | what is it? |
| 09:46.12 | jasta | And I feel cheated for it. |
| 09:46.21 | jasta | http://www.devtcg.org |
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| 09:49.10 | jasta | I naively entered this community believing I could predict the project's evolution. That we would see regular releases as the platform neared maturity, and given increasingly sophisticated tools to really mark the platform with our quality applications. |
| 09:49.11 | trigatch4 | nice |
| 09:49.14 | jasta | And that, for our work, we'd see some level of momentum being early adopters ready to launch with the platform itself. |
| 09:49.47 | jasta | As a result of this recent short-sightedness, I think at least my short-term goal will not be met. |
| 09:50.35 | jasta | Android will launch with minimal community support, and very few quality applications. |
| 09:50.37 | jasta | Other than those produced by Google and the OHA partners. |
| 09:52.17 | trigatch4 | although that'll still be better than the 0 applications people have access to now |
| 09:52.32 | jasta | Well, will it? |
| 09:52.42 | jasta | I mean, what about Android's initial launch will be so significantly better than the iPhone? |
| 09:52.57 | jasta | Developers can create apps for the iPhone now, afterall. Of course you are subject to Apple's whim, but how is Google behaving differently now? |
| 09:53.23 | jasta | They aren't even in a position to guarantee that our apps won't be rejected for political reasons. |
| 09:53.33 | jasta | They aren't even in that game. The carriers could just as well lay on their usual crap and reject apps that compete with their services. |
| 09:54.23 | jasta | While I believe we are dealing with two different evils here, the practical point still remains valid. How is Android's initial launch going to be much different than the iPhone?> |
| 09:54.38 | jasta | I bet, in fact, the iPhone will have far more community-generated apps at that point. |
| 09:54.42 | jasta | With it's SDK being out for a shorter length of time even. |
| 09:55.15 | jasta | I had assumed Google was doing a smart thing with the ADC: to get a bunch of niche apps built, with only having to pay for a few of them. |
| 09:55.54 | jasta | But then they turned around and penalized the vast majority of apps that were built. |
| 09:56.33 | jasta | Anyway, I have to go. My girlfriend is really upset with me now :) |
| 10:06.00 | trigatch4 | haha thanks for the talk |
| 10:06.07 | trigatch4 | i disagree with you on iphone vs. android |
| 10:06.11 | trigatch4 | but we can talk about that later |
| 10:06.15 | trigatch4 | have a good night |
| 10:11.08 | gambler | wow i just read all that |
| 10:22.43 | trigatch4 | and? |
| 10:35.09 | gambler | a little whiny |
| 10:36.01 | gambler | however a few reasonable comments |
| 10:38.31 | gambler | ill give it a 6/10 for effort |
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| 17:47.15 | trigatch4 | good morning |
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| 17:56.37 | spykid | Is it normal in the US that you write about market share per Quarter and not about the overall market share? e.g. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jKGYITouKPZvIoFA4nmTsIG9flXQD91076E83 |
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| 18:22.54 | jasta | gambler: a few? ;) |
| 18:45.44 | spykid | jasta: A few! |
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| 23:51.39 | duey | quiet before the storm? |
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| 23:52.29 | jerkface03 | ? |
| 23:52.32 | jerkface03 | what do you mean? |
| 23:52.41 | jerkface03 | is there a storm abrewin? |