IRC log for #android on 20080623

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03:20.02f00f-quite a bit of progress today
03:22.32zhobbscongrats
03:22.45zhobbsyou onto the client yet?
03:26.28dueywhen do you guys find out you didn't win moar money?
03:26.40zhobbsaugust
03:26.45dueyclose
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03:48.17trigatch4^^ duey what a d-bag you are haha
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03:50.38f00f-zhobbs: hopefully next week, we're still working on UI mockups ;)
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03:57.13dueytrigatch4: :P
03:57.15dueyi dont mean it
03:57.22trigatch4hehe i know
03:57.25trigatch4it was funny
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05:15.09trigatch4not lookin good guys
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13:09.20trigatch4anyone up?
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13:15.55michaelnovakjrhowdy
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13:21.56trigatch4whattup michaelnovakjr
13:22.19trigatch4you seeing all these headlines?
13:22.39Dougie187what headlines?
13:23.45michaelnovakjrwhat headlines?
13:24.14michaelnovakjr???
13:24.50mazzenhm... maybe he means http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Bericht-Verzoegerungen-bei-der-Entwicklung-von-Android-Handys--/meldung/109827 (it's german) about "android delay".
13:25.10michaelnovakjrwhat android delay
13:26.18mazzenChinese mobile phone companies said, that they have difficulties with translating android into chinese.
13:26.43mazzenand that currently it's hard for developer, as android has a lot of changes in code and code structure
13:27.46michaelnovakjrhow does that effect the US and Europe?
13:29.15mazzenmost cell phones are manufactured in china... and i think that they will create *one* android image file, which will have all languages inside. and will not build separated versions of android for each country
13:29.54mazzenhm... but  i'm very surprised about the "translation reason". i have never seen, any translation possibilities in android so far.
13:29.58mazzendid i miss something?
13:30.44spykidmazzen: http://code.google.com/android/devel/resources-i18n.html ?
13:30.51mazzenand we still do not know, if this is the headline trigatch4 meant :D
13:31.16trigatch4yeah, android delay is what i meant
13:31.40trigatch4from Wall Street Journal... says all their time is spent with t-mobile and its taking longer than expected
13:31.56mazzenhey, spykid! thanks!
13:31.57trigatch4Sprint has delayed until possiblye Q1 2009
13:32.08trigatch4same with a Chinese manufacturer
13:32.17trigatch4ugh
13:32.30spykidtrigatch4: Did you read the whole article, do they name any reliable source?
13:33.30Dougie187that kinda sucks.
13:33.43Dougie187though i dont care about the Chinese Manufacturer, but still.
13:33.53trigatch4well, the exact delays just quote "reliable sources"
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13:34.07Dougie187lol
13:34.08trigatch4but it was reported by WSJ which is pretty reputable
13:34.43Dougie187true.
13:34.56Dougie187thats disappointing that they are spending all their time with T-Mobile too
13:35.26Dougie187michaelnovakjr (probably) and I would prefer they talk to Sprint more.
13:35.27Dougie187lol
13:35.31michaelnovakjryea
13:35.33michaelnovakjrhaha
13:35.42Dougie187+ im not a big Tmobile fan.
13:35.52Dougie187afaik their plans suck. and their service isnt that great either.
13:35.56michaelnovakjryea me too
13:36.07mazzenspykid: but my now, there is only a "Coming Soon:..." for  "Internationalization and Localization". so... either the chinese manufacturers have a newer SDK, or they're hacking something on there own, or?
13:36.14Dougie187do they even have any HTC phones?
13:36.50trigatch4what do you guys think of this quote: "Developers are finding it hard to write apps for Android because Google keeps making changes to the Android."
13:36.57tethridgetrigatch4, I just logged on, is there an article that you guys are talking about?
13:37.02Dougie187mazzen: keep in mind, they dont have documentation up for the "current" sdk.
13:37.17trigatch4all the articles saying Android is delayed
13:37.21trigatch4i gotta go write mine up now
13:37.23trigatch4brb
13:37.24Dougie187the currrent SDK is the NDA one, so they cant post any of their stuff related to that online.
13:37.25trigatch4;)
13:37.40tethridgeare these new articles?
13:37.47Dougie187i guess its from today.
13:37.50mazzenDougie187: ah, yes, that's true. you're right. i forgot this.
13:37.53Dougie187theres also one in german.
13:38.07Dougie187(9:24:49 AM) mazzen: hm... maybe he means http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Bericht-Verzoegerungen-bei-der-Entwicklung-von-Android-Handys--/meldung/109827 (it's german) about "android delay".
13:38.28Dougie187hey michaelnovakjr, i think that the "Dream" would come to Sprint.
13:38.30tethridgeof how long?  I don't speak German
13:38.41Dougie187because Tmobile doesnt even have HTC phones.
13:38.48michaelnovakjryea
13:39.18Dougie187tethridge: i guess Sprint said they would delay until Q1 09, and Chinese developers said they would just delay. I guess Google is only working with Tmobile and its making it hard for anyone else to get work done.
13:39.44michaelnovakjrGoogle is screwing this whole thing up
13:39.51tethridgethey are making it hard for me to put off an iPhone purchase
13:39.54Dougie187heh
13:40.01Dougie187write dan an email
13:40.05Dougie187and see if he will come explain.
13:40.12mazzentethridge: t-mobile hopes to sell an android phone at the end of this year, china mobile in the beginning of 2009. so the "german" source
13:40.44spykidmazzen: the german source is only quoting WSJ as all other articles also ;)
13:40.53tethridgeI currently have Sprint, so I was hoping to get an HTC android phone
13:41.12Dougie187tethridge: i cant imagine the HTC android phone going to Tmobile.
13:41.19michaelnovakjri have an HTC touch phone with sprint
13:41.30michaelnovakjri'll just take what google started and finish it myself
13:41.31spykidI'm still optimistic ;)
13:41.53tethridgeI don't see how keeping developers in the dark is considered "open"
13:42.10mazzenspykid: i didn't find the english source and the news seems to be *sooo* ;-) new, that even google search did'nt found it. but maybe i just used the wrong key words ;-)
13:42.27tethridgeGoogle is doing a great job of defining how not to run a open source project
13:42.36Dougie187hah
13:42.47michaelnovakjrgo to the wall street journal site
13:42.52Dougie187i like how romain is theo nly one who comes in here too
13:42.55michaelnovakjrthey are the ones with the knowledge
13:43.04Dougie187so we cant see if anyone else knows anything about it
13:43.09michaelnovakjrthese dumb blog sites are just interpreting the real story
13:43.10mazzentethridge: novel build the "wobble" desktop first on there own too and released the source, when it was ready to do it.
13:43.11Dougie187since dan and jason are just avoiding us.
13:43.31tethridgemazzen, and they still get a lot of grief for doing that.
13:43.44tethridgeit works, but it didn't inspire a lot of teamwork
13:44.08tethridgeit actually wasted a lot of effort because people went off and started other projects to do the same thing
13:44.21Dougie187http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121418837707895947.html?mod=2_1571_topbox
13:44.25Dougie187theres your article
13:44.25tethridgegee, that appears to be happening again, eh michaelnovakjr?
13:44.55michaelnovakjrwhat appears to be happening
13:45.08tethridgeI've heard of developers here hacking the old sdk to get a running phone
13:45.30michaelnovakjri wouldn't call my idea hacking...
13:45.34tethridgeeffort that could be used to get other features working that haven't already been done inside Google
13:45.42michaelnovakjrmore or less supporting my phone on my carrier :)
13:47.07tethridgeI'm just making the point that, like Novell developing Compiz, closing developers out is inefficient and often causes new duplicate efforts/projects to spring up
13:47.09mazzentethridge: maybe.... maybe not. i think it's a very hard business place and apples iphone is a strong "rival" (?). so i guess, google just wants a "surprising moment", when they finally release it. of course i would like to see, what the current android can do,  but for marketing reason i can understand, why they try to hide the possibilities a bit.
13:47.45michaelnovakjrwhat marketing?
13:47.46tethridgethat is where modular development practices could help
13:47.52michaelnovakjrthere isn't a product yet
13:47.59tethridgedevelop a common platform and release it
13:48.18tethridgethen have your "skunkworks" develop the bling
13:48.37tethridgedevs are happy and consumers are surprised
13:48.49Dougie187i think their main problem right now, is they are developing and letting companies request new features. so as they go they get new things they have to add. and they might take a long time.
13:48.58Dougie187so i think their development is fragmented a bit.
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13:50.04Dougie187hey michaelnovakjr, did you read the WSJ article?
13:50.16michaelnovakjrreading it now
13:50.30trigatch4you guys have full access to WSJ article?
13:50.31spykidFor me all these things in the WSJ make now sense
13:50.39spykidno
13:50.40trigatch4that ish is $90/year
13:50.50michaelnovakjri get it delivered in the morning
13:50.53Dougie187here tri
13:50.54Dougie187http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121418837707895947.html?mod=2_1571_topbox
13:51.22trigatch4sweeeeeet
13:51.26trigatch4thank you sir
13:51.51spykidI had some insight how these articles are written and I personally think they didn't know what they really write about ;)
13:52.09michaelnovakjrtrigatch4, you should just copy and paste the article :)
13:52.18trigatch4hahhahahaha
13:52.20mazzenan example: steve jobs tries to hide every information about the iphone - until they released it. and mostly everyone was surprised of the *new* features. this leads to headlines. but i 'm just speculating. i really think that this is one of the reason, next to all of the code changes. if i do remember right, robert love said, that hight amount of code changes is the main reason, why they still didnt release it.
13:52.51trigatch4phandroid is reporting: <pasted article>. They stole this article from us anyways.
13:52.54michaelnovakjri think blog news sites are annoying. they should just provide a link to the original story
13:53.22trigatch4i usually provide a link... but offering an opinion/perspective is part of the purpose
13:53.28trigatch4style of writing...
13:53.30trigatch4etc
13:54.16michaelnovakjryea, but its all speculation based on a story not something you were told first person
13:54.38tethridgemazzen, I hear what you're saying, but what is supposed to make the android platform special is that it's open source.  If I wanted closed development with lots of bang I would just go buy the iPhone July 11th
13:55.38mazzenfor developers :-) not nor "normal" paying people/customers :)
13:55.54tethridgeyeah, this is about me.  :-)
13:55.56trigatch4reading it from WSJ is still speculation
13:56.04trigatch4just once removed instead of twice removed
13:56.10michaelnovakjryes, but they actually did reporting
13:56.18mazzenand these are the people, which has to be surprised, so they buy a "googlephone" and not an iphone. :)
13:56.22michaelnovakjrits like the game of telephone
13:56.55trigatch4Dougie187: where is this WSJ article link from? can i link to this from phandroid?
13:57.07Dougie187i got it from online.wsj.com
13:57.21Dougie187just go to their site, and click on technology.
13:57.25Dougie187its like the headline
13:58.22Dougie187i think google could have tried to incorporate the OS community a bit more, and it would have helped their efforts to produce android in a timely manor.
13:58.33michaelnovakjryea
13:58.38Dougie187as they have been hasseled before for not using branches.
13:58.48Dougie187or having freeze schedules would be nice too.
13:59.23Dougie187i bet they could have got a ton of people to contribute to some of the various branches.
13:59.26Dougie187thats like free labor.
13:59.34Dougie187so it seems stupid that they didnt.;
14:00.28anno^da_because Tmobile doesnt even have HTC phones.  <- Thats not right
14:00.29Dougie187they could still oversee the finished product, and make sure it complied with their standards. but thats just completely free labor. and the only reason they arn't doing it is because they dont want the community to know about "features" that the various carriers are planning to have in their phones.
14:00.42Dougie187anno^da_: i didnt see any on their site.
14:00.46anno^da_every T-Mobile Vario is a HTC
14:01.00anno^da_I don't know about the devices in the US
14:01.05Dougie187Vario?
14:01.26anno^da_but in Germany every smartphone running Windows Mobile from T-Mobile is from HTC
14:01.39anno^da_they sell it under a different lable
14:02.00anno^da_http://www.4phones.de/Technische_Daten/T-Mobile/Vario/527.html
14:02.11anno^da_That is just one example
14:02.31anno^da_the thing is you don't have to stick with t-mobile
14:02.37anno^da_in order to run android phones
14:02.44Dougie187oh i know.
14:02.51Dougie187im not planning to ever switch to tmobile
14:02.55anno^da_:)
14:02.56Dougie187http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/
14:02.57anno^da_fine :D
14:03.19Dougie187maybe the Shadow is an HTC, but i dont know
14:03.24Dougie187or the wing
14:04.02Dougie187this one.
14:04.02Dougie187http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=T-Mobile-Wing%E2%84%A2
14:04.29mazzenDougie187: i beg you to do it!!!!!  ;-) in my mental derangement i bought a few shares, as i wanted to invest in something autochthonous ....
14:04.42Dougie187hah
14:04.49trigatch4now that i htink about it...
14:04.55trigatch4this news is pretty retarded
14:05.09Dougie187it is pretty retarded trigatch4
14:05.13Dougie187they dont really say anything new.
14:05.18Dougie187its all stuff we already expected.
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14:05.21trigatch4Google has said, "the first android handset will come in the 2nd half of 2008"
14:05.26Dougie187yeah
14:05.26trigatch4and that is still the case
14:05.32Dougie187and they are just changing it to Q4 09
14:05.37Dougie187i mean
14:05.38Dougie18708
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14:06.24Dougie187I like how google still mentions, "We got 1800 submissions" but they never say, "And we screwed 1750 of them out of developing!"
14:08.04spykidQ4 is what Google corporate communications team gives out to everyone who asks, try it yourself :D
14:08.58spykidWSJ is a mashup of comments, old news and some speculations plus a lot of misundertanding
14:10.21michaelnovakjrare you from google?
14:11.16spykidNope
14:11.42michaelnovakjrso then what makes you more credible than the wsj?
14:11.59spykidNothing ;)
14:12.32michaelnovakjrgoogle messed android up!
14:12.46Dougie187true.
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14:22.35trigatch4i think spykid is right, to be honest
14:23.38michaelnovakjri don't think so
14:23.59michaelnovakjri am predicting no earlier than Q2 of 09
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14:24.11michaelnovakjryou'll see
14:34.32michaelnovakjrdual boot mac and linux on a macbook pro
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14:43.58trigatch4michaelnovakjr...
14:44.22michaelnovakjri successfully have my macbook pro dual booting mac and linux
14:45.40trigatch4for future reference, you know, for when you start writing articles on phandroid
14:45.55trigatch4this is what i mean by covering another article but providing your own opinion/spin:
14:45.57trigatch4http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121418837707895947.html?mod=2_1571_topbox
14:45.59trigatch4fuck
14:46.12trigatch4http://phandroid.com/2008/06/23/android-delayed-depends-on-who-you-ask/
14:47.48michaelnovakjrhaha
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15:24.55jastayay, when we left earth is done downloading :)
15:26.33michaelnovakjrhey jasta, http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121418837707895947.html?mod=2_1571_topbox
15:26.38michaelnovakjrdid you see that yet?
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15:43.04anno^da_I don't get the whole thing here, they alwasy said q4
15:43.12anno^da_so why is there a delay :P
15:44.08michaelnovakjrsprint is saying Q1 2009
15:44.23michaelnovakjrwhich means it'll probably be Q2 2009 before its out
15:46.30trigatch4eh
15:46.39trigatch4i just think sprint decided that their future is wimax
15:46.46trigatch4android is a next-gen device
15:47.03jastawell, let's all be realistic.
15:47.12trigatch4why not combine android and wimax and really beat up on the iphone since their trying to do that with the whole "instinct" thing to begin with
15:47.30jastadid any of us think Google was going to launch early?  i mean, when they say second half of '08, don't you all picture Nov/Dec?
15:47.39trigatch4EXACTLY
15:47.41trigatch4thank you
15:47.59trigatch4which is why all these idiots re-reporting hte news from WSJ are exaggerating just for headlines
15:48.02jastaeven if internally they are aiming for Jul/Aug, everyone in the public still knows they won't make it until late ;)
15:48.19trigatch4they havent said how many carriers, how many handsets, etc.. .they just said 2nd half 2008 you'll see the first handset
15:48.36michaelnovakjrdude trigatch4 you just did that yourself
15:48.48michaelnovakjryou were all excited and couldn't wait to write about it
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15:50.40trigatch4apparently, jasta... this article says more than you claim morril has in terms of developers
15:51.15trigatch4google is busy working with carriers and manufacturers to customize the android code for THEIR developers so... they take priority and you eat dust
15:51.16trigatch4;)
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16:10.20muthuWSJ is reporting google phones are getting delayed
16:10.36michaelnovakjrwow, little late
16:10.51michaelnovakjrits been the topic of discussion for about 4 hours now
16:11.32Dougie187lol
16:11.33Dougie187yeah
16:11.45Dougie187hes been smoking too much in SF
16:12.00Dougie187if he was back home, he would have got it done 10 hours ago.
16:12.04Dougie187before it even came out.
16:12.16michaelnovakjrhaha
16:12.32muthuits only 9 herer
16:12.39Dougie187hes a little slow because of the pot.
16:12.44muthuhehe
16:12.49muthulast week!
16:12.57michaelnovakjrlast week of pot?
16:13.02muthuoh yeah
16:13.06Dougie187lol
16:18.51jastatrigatch4: i already knew that.
16:21.13trigatch4jasta: i was being facetious
16:24.54jastainteresting quote right at the end:
16:25.00jastaBut he says Weather Channel has had to "rewrite a few things" so far, and Google's most recent revision of Android "is going to require some significant work," he says.
16:25.10trigatch4yeah, i saw that
16:25.14jastathat most recent revision would be the private one.
16:25.19trigatch4yup
16:25.32trigatch4meaning ADC 1 entrants have a lot of work ahead of them if they want to continue
16:27.52Dougie187jasta: how do you know there isnt another private release though?
16:27.56jastamostly this article is drivel, though.
16:27.59Dougie187i guess it depends when the quote is from.
16:28.08jastaDougie187: it was from yesterday
16:28.20jastaerr no, the article was posted today
16:28.29jastabut i suppose that does not indicate when the quote was made.
16:28.32Dougie187yeah, but when were the quotes taken.
16:28.46Dougie187so the quotes could have been 2 days ago, or a month ago.
16:28.53Dougie187a month would indicate m16.
16:28.58Dougie187but after that we dont know.
16:29.33jastawell, i wouldn't think the weather channel would be in a privileged position to receive updates outside the normal community
16:29.43jastathe reason being that they won the ADC, so obviously they aren't a mobile partner.
16:29.47Dougie187well maybe that is part of the NDA.
16:29.56Dougie187we dont know the NDA members dont get additional releases.
16:30.09jastawho are you referring to?  the ADC winners?
16:30.11Dougie187we just assumed they stop at m16, or what ever.
16:30.18jastawe did?
16:30.20Dougie187yeah, and the other OHA members.
16:30.32jastathe ADC winners are to receive regular updates
16:30.47jastain fact, they are guaranteed to get a new one 3 weeks before their deadline at the end of July.
16:30.54Dougie187lol
16:30.55Dougie187that blows.
16:30.57jastawhich they must support in order to win.
16:31.04Dougie187that sucks balls for them.
16:31.57jastayeah, it's honestly not a good deal.
16:37.21anno^da_the thing is why do you care about sprint oder t-mobile ?
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16:37.50anno^da_HTC will definetly get devices on the market in q4
16:38.10jastauhm, HTC isn't a carrier.
16:38.18anno^da_So I dont care about the operators
16:38.26jastathey can't (read: won't) launch devices without a carrioer.
16:38.31jastacarrier*
16:38.33anno^da_yeah but that doesnt matter.
16:38.37anno^da_hmm in the US
16:38.43anno^da_but not in GErmany
16:38.45jastaIn the US, it most certainly does matter.
16:38.57michaelnovakjrwhat are you talking about
16:39.04anno^da_You can buy HTC devices directly from HTC without a carrier
16:39.07michaelnovakjrthere won't be a phone without carrier support
16:39.07jastaWe don't even know what markets Google is targeting, anno^da_.
16:39.21michaelnovakjranno^da_ that's great but where are you going to activate it
16:40.19anno^da_michaelnovakjr: why not ? You take a SIM card from one of the discounters
16:40.38jastaanno^da_: Well, first of all if HTC makes a phone coupled with Sprint, there is no SIM.  It's CDMA.
16:40.46michaelnovakjrexactly
16:40.47anno^da_Yeah in the US
16:40.49jastaSecond of all, HTC often doesn't make world phones.
16:40.52anno^da_but NOT in germany ;)
16:41.03jastaanno^da_: Right, but you don't know that Android is being launched in the German market, do you?
16:41.07anno^da_in Germany we have SIM cards in every device
16:41.25michaelnovakjranno^da_ but even still you can't activate it
16:41.30anno^da_It is not the closed system like in the us
16:41.37spykidanno^da_: what you can do doesn't matter, 80% of all handsets are still bought from the carrier
16:41.39michaelnovakjrif i have an att phone, and try to activate it with tmobile... it doesn't work
16:41.50anno^da_michaelnovakjr: I have never activated a mobile phone here except the iPhone
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16:42.15michaelnovakjrwhat are you talking about?
16:42.19jastaanno^da_: You are not understanding something here.  If the phone is locked as they are traditionally, or if the phone simply deosn't support your country's band, what will you do?
16:42.28anno^da_I can use a vodafone sim card with every t-nobile or whatever more device
16:42.51michaelnovakjri guarantee you android will not have support like that
16:42.55anno^da_jasta: But HTC will not offer devices only for the US
16:43.07spykidmichaelnovakjr: For Europe they have to
16:43.12jastaanno^da_: What makes you so sure?  What do your data rates look like?
16:43.13anno^da_michaelnovakjr: I gurantee you they will ;)
16:43.39michaelnovakjryou had to activate an iphone didn't you?
16:43.45jastaI can promise you that Android will not launch in any market without reasonable, unlimited data plans.
16:43.52jastaThere simply is no money for them there.
16:43.59anno^da_Yeah that was the first phone here in Germany and evryone laughed about that.
16:44.43anno^da_They will not close the system like Apple did with the iPhone
16:44.56jastaanno^da_: Actually, I have spoken with Google folks at I/O and ... They will.
16:44.57michaelnovakjrhow do you know?
16:45.06anno^da_yeah in the US
16:45.07michaelnovakjrthey already started with an NDA
16:45.08mazzenanno^da_: SIMcards in every device? not in a nokia nxx ;-)
16:45.36anno^da_mazzen: getting the SIM lock down isnt that difficult ;)
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16:45.50jastaanno^da_: You're setting yourself for a great deal of disappointment here.  Please, look into what Google has done and said so far.
16:45.57mazzenjust wanted to be funny
16:46.02michaelnovakjranno^da_ how are you so sure that germany will be supported right away?
16:46.09mazzennokia nxx simply doesnt have any sim-cards in it
16:46.10jastaDon't assume that Android will be workable in any market not officially supported.
16:46.33anno^da_michaelnovakjr: I've talked to the Germany ToMo guys
16:46.34spykidT-Mobile? Germany?
16:46.47anno^da_to the german :)
16:47.13jastaWell honestly, whatever anno^da_ :)
16:47.16anno^da_jasta: we will see but I can gurantee you that we will be able to buy HTC devices without a data plan
16:47.23jastaIf you'd like to assume what was not said will be, go right ahead.
16:47.29michaelnovakjri highly doubut
16:47.41michaelnovakjryou'll be disappointed when it comes out then :)
16:47.52anno^da_Haha yeah we will see ;)
16:48.18jastaanno^da_: So, have you been following Android closely up until now? :)
16:48.35michaelnovakjrobviously not as close as he thinks ;)
16:48.40jastaYou seem oddly optimistic hehe
16:48.50michaelnovakjrgoogle has already hit the world with an NDA
16:48.53anno^da_Yeah I have. And at the moment it is open source the first guys will start porting the system to FIC devices ;)
16:48.58michaelnovakjrwhat makes you think more stuff won't be locked down
16:49.25michaelnovakjropen source... HA!
16:49.26jastaanno^da_: Well, you do realize that only the platform itself will be opened?  So, no device drivers, radio interfaces, or even Google apps.
16:49.49michaelnovakjrpeople use the term open source as often as i say shit
16:50.12michaelnovakjrits basically as open source as Mac OS X is
16:50.22jastaAlthough, oddly enough I am seeing a large amount of Qualcomm code going into the public GIT repository.  I wonder if that's in error.
16:50.25michaelnovakjrmaybe slightly more...
16:50.54jastaOr rather, Google IP implementing Qualcomm devices.  Very strange.
16:51.35michaelnovakjrgotta take everything with a grain of salt
16:51.46michaelnovakjrwell actually, a dump truck of salt
16:52.01trigatch4that defeats the purpose of salt
16:52.11trigatch4unless there is a snow storm
16:52.12trigatch4then itd be good
16:52.17anno^da_michaelnovakjr: We can bet that it will take not more than one month and the Android system will run on this device: no device drivers, radio interfaces, or even Google apps.
16:52.18anno^da_michaelnovakjrpeople use the term open source as often as i say shit
16:52.29anno^da_oh sorry pasted the wrong thing :D
16:52.33michaelnovakjrhaha
16:52.40anno^da_:)
16:52.52trigatch4anno^da: what device we talkin about?
16:53.14anno^da_the FIC Neo 1973 and the new Freeruner
16:53.30trigatch4michaelnovakjr and jasta: mind having a look at something for me? the unfinished, draft version of my android applications database/website?
16:53.51trigatch4anno^da: link please
16:53.55anno^da_http://www.openmoko.com/
16:54.01michaelnovakjrsure
16:54.24jastatrigatch4: sure?
16:54.54trigatch4don't go broadcasting it yet... still got a lot of work to do... but hopefully will start getting developers set up with accounts for their apps later this week
16:55.07trigatch4http://AndroidApplications.com
16:55.24jastaanno^da_: your optimism is encouraging, but please do wait and see what this platform looks like really.  Google's been very careful with what they say, and that tells me we are in for some major surprises come launch time.
16:56.21anno^da_jasta: the only chance they have is to open the system as much as they can. Why should I use a second or third closed platform as a developer.
16:56.34jastaIf you base your opinion only on the facts of what Google has said, then all you know is that Android will be a mobile platform that runs on phones coming out soon, and will contain platform source code.  Not that it will magically transform the industry, existing business models, etc.
16:57.00jastaanno^da_: Well, they don't agree with you, obviously.  They are opening only the platform itself.  There is talk of maybe opening some Google apps as well, but I would be very surprised if they did that.
16:57.09trigatch4actually, google people HAVE said the latter, jasta...
16:57.14michaelnovakjrtrigatch4, looks good, i would just kill your queries at the bototm
16:57.17jastaFortunately, the dex file format is likely to be portable across devices, though.
16:57.19anno^da_jasta: But you base youre opinion on the US market
16:57.26michaelnovakjranno^da_ no
16:57.32michaelnovakjrthere is no 'market'
16:57.33jastaanno^da_: No, I don't.
16:57.34trigatch4michaelnovakjr: yeah those are for my programmer friend who is still working on that stuff
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16:57.51trigatch4any immediate thoughts, suggestions?
16:57.54michaelnovakjranno^da_ android has said nothing about support for certain countries yet
16:58.35jastatrigatch4: i assume you intend to put screenshots on the left?
16:58.54jastai'd also put a rating right there in the listing
16:59.04michaelnovakjryea
16:59.14michaelnovakjrmaybe the download count too
16:59.18trigatch4screen shots will be in the listing...
16:59.31trigatch4the barcode thing there now will be an "icon" that each developer sets
16:59.31jastaand i'd make sure to create a sort of meta main page which spotlights interesting apps blog-style
16:59.49trigatch4since each app will most likely have an icon associated with
17:00.28trigatch4download counts and ratings are in the works... but right now there is nothing to download hehe so the DL count would be 0
17:00.45michaelnovakjrtrue
17:00.56trigatch4i'm struggling with whether to make ratings by IP or you need an account to rate things... but for now there is no user account system so... we'll see
17:01.01michaelnovakjrdesign is pretty cool
17:01.19trigatch4thanks man :)
17:01.31jastatrigatch4: just make the rating automatic based on page views, downloads, or some other heuristic
17:01.33trigatch4do you like jasta's idea of a blogstyle home that features different apps and stuff?
17:01.48jastawell, because think about how many apps there will be
17:01.51michaelnovakjryea
17:01.53Dougie187hey jasta, jason has said in the past the only thing that would not be open sourced are some hardware drivers.
17:01.57michaelnovakjrit should be random though
17:01.58trigatch4very true..
17:01.59jastausers need some way to navigate all that, to find the ones that are interesting.
17:02.05Dougie187at least from google.
17:02.29jastaDougie187: No, I was talking to Dan at I/O.  He said specifically that Google Apps were up in the air, likely not to be open.
17:02.38jastaMeaning, the browser app, maps, contacts app, youtube, etc.
17:02.45michaelnovakjrtrigatch4 i would make a spotlight application be different every time you load the page
17:02.59trigatch4hmmmmm thats an interesting idea...
17:03.06Dougie187Well, then we have a conflict from two google people. heh. because right before I/O Jason was on here, saying everything was going to be opensourced except some hardware drivers.
17:03.10jastamichaelnovakjr: agreed, that seems best.
17:03.23jastaDougie187: Jason was also in this conversation.
17:03.27michaelnovakjrgives every app an equal chance at being listed first
17:03.32michaelnovakjrdevelopers would like that idea :)
17:03.37Dougie187well, maybe something changed then.
17:03.42jastaDougie187: Let's not forget, Jason *says* a lot of things ;)
17:03.45anno^da_From my point of view we have to differ between the system itself, the hardware manufacturers (that can be different manufacturers than the OHA members) and the markets (that will be important not only because of differences in the networks and the activation stuff that you have in  the US but we don't have at all) .
17:03.46Dougie187true.
17:03.56anno^da_<PROTECTED>
17:03.57Dougie187he did say we would get an announcement about a month ago now.
17:04.02Dougie187and still he hasnt been in this room since.
17:04.12michaelnovakjranno^da_ there is nothing yet!
17:04.26michaelnovakjranno^da_ all we have is an outdated SDK!
17:04.36michaelnovakjreverything else is complete speculation
17:04.47jastaDougie187: Yes he did, and that he would be happy to allay my concerns at I/O.
17:04.57Dougie187and he didnt do that.
17:04.58Dougie187heh
17:04.59jastaBut instead he made me want to punch him in the teeth.
17:05.00trigatch4even the Weather Channel people are saying the new SDK will demand an overhaul of applications based on the last SDK
17:05.01michaelnovakjri remember that :)
17:05.26jastatrigatch4: i think that is overstating what they said, but yes ;)
17:05.30anno^da_michaelnovakjr: so why the pessimism ;)
17:05.31Dougie187well, we shall see.
17:05.42anno^da_I don't get that. :)
17:05.53michaelnovakjranno^da_ because all we have is an outdated SDK that is not even worth developing with at this point
17:05.59jastaanno^da_: A lot of us feel that Google has been jerking us around of late.
17:05.59Dougie187anno^da_: they are not being pessimistic, they are trying to be realistic.
17:06.00trigatch4thanks for your input on the site, guys
17:06.01trigatch4:)
17:06.02michaelnovakjrits a load of crap
17:06.08michaelnovakjrno problem trigatch4
17:06.43Dougie187anno^da_: you don't know whats going to happen. noone does. there is just assumptions going on about how this whole things going to go down.
17:07.09michaelnovakjrDougie187 he apparently talks to t mobile people that know stuff
17:07.20Dougie187everyone talks to people.
17:07.23michaelnovakjr:)
17:07.24Dougie187wsj talks to google people.
17:07.28Dougie187and tmobile, and sprint.
17:07.32michaelnovakjrhaha, yes they do
17:07.40Dougie187but they dont know anything.
17:07.50Dougie187hell, they release news today that we knew over a month ago
17:07.55michaelnovakjryep
17:08.05michaelnovakjrnews takes a while to get from Cali to NY
17:08.12Dougie187lol
17:08.19michaelnovakjrits gotta go through customs and all that good stuff
17:08.21Dougie187muthu could have ran it faster with his break.
17:08.23michaelnovakjrhaha
17:08.27*** join/#android pandora-- (n=pandora-@66.238.50.126.ptr.us.xo.net)
17:09.08Dougie187is a german carrier even in the OHA?
17:10.41michaelnovakjrwhat is the OHA? is that Outstanding Handset Assholes?
17:10.46Dougie187lol
17:10.49Dougie187no.
17:10.53michaelnovakjrit certainly isn't anything about being open
17:10.55Dougie187its Outstanding Handset Asshats.
17:10.59michaelnovakjrhaha
17:11.01Dougie187you have to use Jasta's nickname.
17:11.03spykidDougie187: T-Mobile
17:12.12Dougie187but they have different phones for Europe and USA do they not?
17:12.13michaelnovakjrso is Sprint, but they could be out of business by the time android is out :)
17:12.13Dougie187lol
17:12.13Dougie187not with the way WiMAX is looking.
17:12.47Dougie187Do european Tmobile customers get free M-2-M calling to USA Tmobile customers?
17:13.09spykidDougie187: They had the Danger devices in Germany so I expect that they will have Android one's
17:13.19Dougie187what is Danger?
17:13.36Dougie187and they might not have android ones at launch.
17:13.46Dougie187maybe android won't be out for Europe until Q4 09
17:13.47spykidYou claim to know anything about Android and you don't know Danger?
17:13.49Dougie187or something like that.
17:13.57Dougie187I didnt claim to know anything.
17:14.01spykidOk ;)
17:14.16michaelnovakjrhas google announced Danger?
17:14.59spykidDanger is now part of MS, but the most important people found Android...
17:15.25Dougie187lol what?
17:15.28michaelnovakjrhaha
17:15.43Dougie187im sorry, but the second half of that sentence doesnt make sense..
17:15.54michaelnovakjryea i agre
17:15.55michaelnovakjre
17:16.17Dougie187but if Danger is part of MS then who cares about it?
17:16.22spykidfounded...
17:16.31Dougie187should it be refered to as garbage if its in MS?
17:16.43Dougie187who are the most important people?
17:16.52spykidAndy Rubin, Rich Miner
17:16.58Dougie187and they are from Danger?
17:17.02spykidYep
17:17.11Dougie187ok.
17:17.18Dougie187But does Danger matter anymore?
17:17.22michaelnovakjrso then remind me again why it matters if you know about danger?
17:17.25michaelnovakjrhaha
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17:17.46Dougie187Also, maybe when they were in danger they had more freedom with choices.
17:18.00Dougie187they are associated with google now, so possibly they dont get to make all the shots.
17:18.18Dougie187maybe google will say, F Eurpoe for a year.
17:18.23Dougie187and you wont see any android handset love.
17:18.38Dougie187but maybe they will say F USA for a year, and we wont see any android handset love.
17:18.57michaelnovakjrhaha, we are in america, but still.... screw you all!! haha!
17:19.02tethridgeI doubt they will say either of those
17:19.03Dougie187lol
17:19.20Dougie187tethridge: we doubted they would say "F Developers, delay public SDK for X months"
17:19.28Dougie187but they said that.
17:19.36michaelnovakjryea
17:19.52michaelnovakjrand who would have thought there'd be a NDA in an open source project?
17:20.00Dougie187lol, not me.
17:20.52michaelnovakjrhaha
17:21.10Dougie187well.
17:21.18Dougie187i guess the discussion has ended.
17:21.32jastai started doing work :)
17:21.35Dougie187lol
17:21.38Dougie187good call
17:21.38michaelnovakjrhah
17:21.42Dougie187i might play some DOTA.
17:21.46michaelnovakjrwhats work?
17:21.51Dougie187or Halo.
17:21.53Dougie187or TF2.
17:21.53Dougie187lol
17:21.59jastaDougie187: don't you have a job? :)
17:22.04Dougie187Im a grad student.
17:22.06michaelnovakjryea what the hell
17:22.13Dougie187i get paid to sit at home and play video games.
17:22.13Dougie187lol
17:22.15michaelnovakjrfigures :)
17:22.21Dougie187and go through FEM code.
17:22.23jastawhy do you get paid to be a grad student?
17:22.29Dougie187but i have no timeline.
17:22.33michaelnovakjrbecause he is not us jasta
17:22.45Dougie187because, i have a research assistantship.
17:23.04Dougie187and im in a science field.
17:23.04Dougie187lol
17:23.15Dougie187most science fields pay grad students.
17:23.15michaelnovakjrso what do you do then?
17:23.23michaelnovakjrwhat kind of research
17:23.28Dougie187well, techinically, im working on my masters thesis.
17:23.34michaelnovakjrwhich is...
17:23.40Dougie187im doing Climate Modeling of the Denmark Strait.
17:23.48michaelnovakjrare you going for a PhD after?
17:24.01Dougie187Comparing FEM to FVM on a Y slice of the Denmark Strait to see which is more efficient/accurate.
17:24.01Dougie187yes
17:24.18michaelnovakjrwhat field is the degree in?
17:24.30Dougie187Scientific Computing / Computational Science.
17:24.35michaelnovakjrnice
17:24.36jastabbl
17:24.51Dougie187my bachelors is in Computational Physics.
17:25.01michaelnovakjrnice
17:25.03Dougie187and im collaborating with people from USC and Los Alamos
17:25.13michaelnovakjrinteresting
17:25.19michaelnovakjryou should just go work for NASA
17:25.24Dougie187that would be fun.
17:25.31michaelnovakjryea, i would do that in a heartbeat
17:25.33Dougie187i actually have a relative who works there.
17:25.34Dougie187lol
17:25.41Dougie187my uncle's brother works there.
17:25.52michaelnovakjrso your other uncle then?
17:25.54Dougie187and he says if I want a job, to let him know and he will give me an interview or something.
17:26.01Dougie187no, my aunt is my dad's sister.
17:26.08michaelnovakjrah
17:26.11michaelnovakjrgood point
17:26.13Dougie187so uncle's brother is not really anything.
17:26.26michaelnovakjrso you should get an interview, then you could get me one :)
17:26.31Dougie187heh
17:26.37Dougie187maybe after i finish my PhD
17:26.43Dougie187i would like to get that done first.
17:26.48michaelnovakjrgood point
17:26.53Dougie187but i probably have to do a Postdoc too
17:27.09Dougie187and if i continue with this topic for my PhD Thesis then I will most likely do that at Los Alamos.
17:27.15michaelnovakjrcool
17:27.29Dougie187but thats 2 years, so then i can go do something else. Possibly NASA.
17:27.51Dougie187i have about 4 years left until i get my PhD, and then 2 years for a PostDoc.
17:27.58Dougie187so 6 years from now i can try to get a job at Nasa.
17:28.18Dougie187If i still am in contact with you at that point we can see what we can do about jobs.
17:28.19Dougie187lol
17:28.35michaelnovakjrhaha
17:28.41michaelnovakjrhell yea!
17:28.52Dougie187what do you do now?
17:29.23trigatch4he says "shit" a lot
17:29.31trigatch4but other people say "open source" much more
17:29.34michaelnovakjrdeveloper for a video webcasting company
17:29.37michaelnovakjrhaha
17:29.38trigatch4that too
17:29.51Dougie187thats cool.
17:29.54Dougie187sounds like fun.
17:29.56michaelnovakjryea, its not bad
17:30.05michaelnovakjrlots of java :)
17:30.17trigatch4does your webcasting company do screencasting by chance?
17:30.27trigatch4i've been looking for good screencasting software
17:30.29michaelnovakjrscreencasting...?
17:30.41michaelnovakjras in like screen sharing?
17:30.53trigatch4screencasting: records what your computer screen is doing while recording your audio
17:31.02michaelnovakjrthat is what i thought you meant
17:31.04trigatch4video from screen, audio from mic
17:31.12michaelnovakjri am currently writing an application that does that
17:31.16trigatch4sweet
17:31.26trigatch4i'll beta test for you :) hehe
17:31.28Dougie187aren't there quite a few open source programs that do that pretty well?
17:31.37trigatch4not sure, if so lemme know what they are!
17:31.43Dougie187lemme look
17:31.44Dougie187one sec
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17:31.46michaelnovakjrDougie187, do they do it in real time?
17:31.57Dougie187not as far as i know.
17:32.03Dougie187you record it and put it online.
17:32.06Dougie187like on youtube or something
17:32.07michaelnovakjrgtk-recordMyDesktop does it
17:32.15michaelnovakjrvideo from screen and then audio
17:32.16Dougie187yeah
17:32.19michaelnovakjrbut not streaming
17:32.21Dougie187thats what i was thinking.
17:32.24Dougie187and theres like 2 other ones too
17:32.32michaelnovakjrprobably
17:32.39michaelnovakjrgtk-recordMyDesktop comes with my distro
17:32.45Dougie187true they don't do streaming.
17:32.46Dougie187lol
17:32.58Dougie187it didnt pick up my wacom.
17:33.53Dougie187the other two are called Istanbul and Wink
17:33.59michaelnovakjrah Wink
17:34.03michaelnovakjri've heard of that one
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17:34.50Dougie187Istanbul can Screencast.
17:36.31Dougie187Wink Can't
17:36.37Dougie187at least from the way it looks.
17:36.53zhobbs_lots of press about that wsj article about android being "delayed"
17:37.06Dougie187lol
17:37.22Dougie187we have been discussing that since about 8am.
17:37.39michaelnovakjrhaha
17:38.02zhobbs_and the verdict?
17:38.05Dougie187hey zhobbs_ do you go to the Kennedy Space Center that much?
17:38.12Dougie187zhobbs_: its garbage, and nothing new.
17:38.18Dougie187its just stuff we knew already.
17:38.38zhobbs_Dougie187: not really...I have a lot in the past though
17:38.46michaelnovakjrits a cool place!
17:38.52Dougie187yeah, i have been there once.
17:38.57Dougie187and my wife wants to go.
17:39.06Dougie187i just dont remember if its worth the trip.
17:39.09michaelnovakjri'm going next year
17:39.14zhobbs_yeah, I've been there on lots of school fields trips
17:39.24Dougie187heh i bet.
17:39.24zhobbs_and every year for take your son to work day
17:39.37Dougie187did your dad work there?
17:39.48zhobbs_the take your son days are better than the visitor center
17:39.50zhobbs_yeah
17:40.15michaelnovakjrnice!
17:40.23Dougie187thats cool.
17:40.27Dougie187they have rides and stuff now right?
17:40.32zhobbs_yeah, get to go out on the pads and stuff
17:40.46zhobbs_well, the visitor center is just like a museum
17:40.48Dougie187did you watch when we left earth?
17:40.56zhobbs_yeah, that was awesome
17:40.59Dougie187it was
17:41.03Dougie187we have the last one recorded still.
17:41.06Dougie187have to watch that one.
17:41.09Dougie187but they were so freaking cool.
17:41.09Dougie187lol
17:41.11zhobbs_yeah, I haven't watched the last one
17:41.17zhobbs_hah, great in HD too
17:41.28Dougie187have you gone and ridden Mission Space in Disney yet?
17:41.38zhobbs_no
17:41.41Dougie187its cool.
17:41.50Dougie187and Lieutenant Dan was the Narrator for that too
17:42.04zhobbs_from forest gump?
17:42.06jastadownloaded all the when we left earth episodes last night
17:42.07Dougie187i never remember his real name
17:42.08Dougie187yeah
17:42.16Dougie187jasta: nice. not just watch them.
17:42.22Dougie187they are awesome.
17:42.47jastai saw the first part last week, it was great
17:42.55zhobbs_yeah, they were very well done
17:42.58zhobbs_great film footage
17:43.05Dougie187jasta: is it as good as Planet Earth?
17:43.15zhobbs_different
17:43.28zhobbs_planet earth is really well done also
17:43.38Dougie187i havent seen it yet.
17:43.54Dougie187i want to though
17:44.05Dougie187i was going to download them, but i have to clear off some room on my comp.
17:44.09Dougie18726 gigs is quite a bit.
17:44.19zhobbs_sports and documentaries like that make HD worth it
17:44.26Dougie187heh
17:44.38Dougie187it was just so cool to watch.
17:44.44tethridgejasta, are they making the videos available or did you get them off bittorrent?
17:44.46Dougie187i like how it went through almost all the missions.
17:45.00zhobbs_and it was cool to see my area back in the 50's
17:45.02tethridgeI used to work at Kennedy Space Center
17:45.05tethridgereally old
17:45.05zhobbs_was so different
17:45.16Dougie187heh. i didnt know there were so many missions to the moon.
17:45.16tethridgebuildings suck
17:45.24jastatethridge: i got them off bittorrent
17:45.25zhobbs_tethridge: yep
17:45.39Dougie187its basically a documentary discounting the conspiracy theorists.
17:45.40jastai would like to get the original, though, but the DVD hasn't shipped yet
17:45.44jastaso i have these crummy compressed versions
17:45.55Dougie187i want to get them as well.
17:46.08michaelnovakjrtethridge: what did you do there?
17:46.09jastaDougie187: as far as being better than Planet Earth, i'm not sure.  Planet Earth was really fantastic.
17:46.53zhobbs_yeah, it's amazing the footage they get in planet earth
17:47.02tethridgesoftware dev for united space alliance
17:47.10tethridgeI just did an internship there
17:47.17zhobbs_tethridge: ahh, I live a block from usa in cape canaveral
17:47.18tethridgethat was enough for me to know I didn't want to work there
17:47.23zhobbs_yeah
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17:47.35tethridgethe red tape was incredible
17:47.46tethridgeit was pretty cool seeing the space shuttle up close though
17:47.55zhobbs_yeah, I'm glad I foudn a job in the private sector around here
17:48.00jastai get the sense from watching When We Left Earth that NASA, at least early on, was a pretty stuffy place to be.
17:48.02zhobbs_the govt is a pain
17:48.36michaelnovakjrstuffy?
17:48.49tethridgemy task was to help come up with a system to convert about 2000 cobol reports to the "new" client-server architecture
17:48.55tethridgethis was around 1999
17:48.59Dougie187lol
17:49.12tethridgeeven then, client-server wasn't new
17:49.12Dougie187i hear if you learn cobol you are basically gaurenteed a job in gov't if you want it.
17:49.20Dougie187especially if you know C or C++ or Java.
17:49.21tethridgeit sucked
17:49.43tethridgeI ended up coming up with a system that they actually used
17:49.47*** join/#android TimRiker (n=timr@68-27-149-104.area1.spcsdns.net)
17:50.03tethridgepretty sad when an intern is giving you your innovative ideas
17:50.21tethridgeI'm not a rocket scientist.  :-)
17:50.36Dougie187lol
17:50.48michaelnovakjrha
17:50.59michaelnovakjri know cobol where do i sign up
17:51.18Dougie187we did a problem in one of my undergrad physics classes, and it was about a space shuttle taking off, and the teacher prefaced it by saying "After you have done this, you will know how to be a rocket scientist"
17:51.36michaelnovakjrhaha
17:51.50Dougie187it was pretty easy too.
17:51.50Dougie187lol
17:53.19zhobbs_watching that show last night it was pretty amazing how primitive the first 2 programs were...
17:53.34zhobbs_just sit on a big rocket and hope you land in the right place
17:53.56Dougie187lol
17:53.57Dougie187yup
17:54.33Dougie187i think its funny when they have the people who did the mission talking durring a "scary" mission
17:54.41Dougie187so you are like, oh, well they make it home safe.
17:55.24jastadoes anyone know how large the ISS is now?
17:55.44Dougie187no
17:55.48Dougie187Wikipedia time!
17:56.14Dougie187`424.75 m³
17:56.19Dougie18715k ft^3
17:56.30Dougie187thats living volume though
17:56.36jastait's the size of an american football field it says
17:57.29Dougie187they have all their planned updates on here too
17:57.31Dougie187its pretty cool
17:57.53jastathe ISS is a cool deal, for sure.
17:58.12zhobbs_that show seemed like it was timed to get people interested in space again for mars
17:58.39Dougie187probably with they way their budget is going.
17:59.00f00f-Dougie187: lots of big financials are still on COBOL
17:59.04jastais such a space nerd :0
17:59.19jastai tell my gf, family, and co-workers about stuff happening all the time
17:59.30Dougie187jasta: who isnt, its the final frontier
17:59.43Dougie187f00f-: i hear if your able to convert them to something else you get a job easy.
18:00.14f00f-that would be a kickass consulting gig for the next 3-5 years
18:00.20Dougie187i love Nasa's pic of the day.
18:00.43Dougie187i should bookmark that site.
18:00.48Dougie187they always have the coolest pictures.
18:00.57f00f-i dare you to do it
18:01.13Dougie187omg, triple dog dare?
18:01.17jastait's very cool that we have an international project going too
18:01.28jastaDougie187: i have it on my iGoogle page
18:01.39Dougie187heh
18:02.47Dougie187i didnt know nasa wanted to go back to the moon
18:03.09Dougie187man, i better get my carreer in gear.
18:03.16Dougie187michaelnovakjr and I need to have jobs before then.
18:03.57Dougie187ok, this is cool
18:03.57Dougie187http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/228177main_Red-Dwarf-Flare-Full_full.jpg
18:05.12Dougie187and romainguy, its not from france.
18:08.26jastaDougie187: i've heard that NASA has long-term interest in permanent installations on the moon, one possible utility being a launch pad for other missions.
18:08.38jastagiven that launching from the surface of the Moon would require substantially less energy
18:09.19jastai wonder if there is any fossil foil on the moon *wink, wink*
18:09.20Dougie187yeah
18:09.30Dougie187lol who knows.
18:09.42Dougie187i think its cool that they brought back so many moon rocks.
18:09.54Dougie187i wonder if they kept any of them
18:09.58jastai dont think there could be fossil fuels, i was just joking.
18:10.02Dougie187i know
18:10.06jastaalso, why did i spell it foil a minute ago? :)
18:10.11Dougie187yes
18:10.13Dougie187lol
18:10.14Dougie187who knows.
18:10.17Dougie187either way.
18:10.25Dougie187they did find bacteria there!
18:10.28Dougie187so possibly?
18:10.37jastawell, fossil fuels are hydrocarbons
18:10.44jastaso... ;)
18:11.02Dougie187also, there was a scientist a little while ago who found a bacteria that would convert sugar cane into easily processibly fossil fuels
18:11.09Dougie187maybe they can live on the moon too.
18:11.13jastaDougie187: really?  where did you hear this?
18:11.21Dougie187i read it somewhere.
18:11.29Dougie187maybe engadget?
18:11.31Dougie187i dont remember.
18:11.32jastai mean about bacteria on the moon
18:11.35jastai dont believe that ;)
18:11.41Dougie187oh
18:11.56Dougie187lol they said bacteria in the When We Left Earth thing.
18:11.56f00f-ice on mars, what's next.
18:12.01Dougie187on like one of the first two moon missions.
18:13.34Dougie187lol, michaelnovakjr: check this out.
18:13.34Dougie187http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/23/zomg-no-android-phones-till-q4-2008-right-on-schedule/
18:14.09f00f-that is not a news story
18:14.23Dougie187lol i know.
18:14.30Dougie187but its what we have been saying all morning.
18:14.34Dougie187i just thought it was funny
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18:34.53zhobbs_http://apcmag.com/interview_google_android_expert_dan_morrill_spills_all.htm
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18:42.00f00f-nothing new i bet
18:42.03f00f-should i even read it?
18:43.06tethridgenope
18:43.11tethridgenothing new
18:43.50f00f-k thx
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18:48.50zhobbs_hah
18:48.54zhobbs_nothing new
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18:51.32madhavHi...
18:51.45madhavdoes anyone know how to profile..emulator
18:52.57f00f-no, it's slow. that's all you need to know.
18:53.10f00f-what kind of app are you developing madhav ?
18:53.40madhavemulator..
18:53.57f00f-what?
18:54.12madhavapplication is a browser
18:54.36f00f-okay
18:54.43madhavi heard that its can be done using traceview..but didnt find the debug class
18:54.45madhavapi
18:55.03madhavtried using valgrind...didnt work out well
18:55.21f00f-madhav: i would wait around for jasta to come back
18:55.31f00f-he's very much into debugging tools
18:55.57madhavokay..
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18:57.38madhavfoof: any idea when is android getting released..
18:58.24f00f-madhav: around november time frame
18:58.34f00f-at the earliest i think
18:59.05madhavnice to hear that...
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19:00.06jastaback
19:00.17madhavHello,  jasta
19:00.19jastahi
19:00.42madhavim trying to profile an application(browser) in emulator...
19:00.55madhavcan u tell me what are the best options...
19:01.14madhavi tried valgrind..but didnt work out well
19:01.20jastayou mean, the browser? or your application, using webview?
19:01.31madhavjust browser
19:02.15madhavi want to profile the time it takes to load, with complete flow graph detailed with times..
19:02.19jastaWhat exactly are you looking to find out?  Since it is a closed source application, you won't be able to make much sense of what you learn.
19:02.50madhavi got all the debugging symbols..so i think that wont be proble..
19:03.14jastaThe traceview functionality in Android is what you're after, however again being closed source, you could not make use of it.
19:03.17madhavi think traceview would do that..not sure how to prfile with it
19:03.34madhavi have the source..
19:03.47madhavappl is not closed..
19:03.56jastaWell, yes it is.
19:04.03*** join/#android acet (n=acet@83-70-238-236.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
19:04.04madhavbut i didnt find Debug API..
19:04.06jastaBut the engine is not.
19:04.29jastaThe engine, webkit, is written natively, and can of course be tested outside the boundaries of Android.  Therefore, traceview is not relevant.
19:04.38madhavim using mozilla..,
19:04.41jastaI thought you were referring instead to the browser app, as it performs within Android.
19:04.59jastamadhav: But Android does not use Mozilla, so why does that matter?
19:05.24madhavim using a application which can be runned on top of mozilla platform...
19:05.37jastaAnyway, if you are interested only in profiling the webkit engine, you can do that any number of ways.  gprof, for example, would work.
19:05.58jastamadhav: I don't follow you.
19:06.22madhavabout traceview..could u tell me how do i use it..
19:06.27jastaMozilla and Android aren't related, also, Mozilla isn't a platform.
19:06.45madhavyes, ur right..
19:06.48jastamadhav: you just invoke Debug.startMethodTracing("/tmp/foobar"); in Java source.  then stopMethodTracing where appropriate.
19:07.10jastaBut as I said, this would not profile the browser in Android.  WebView, perhaps, but not the browser.
19:07.21madhavokay
19:07.22jastaand what you keep asserting about Mozilla makes no sense to me.
19:08.02madhavand another question..
19:08.34madhavis there any way that i can profile SDL funcion calls..
19:09.37jastaYou cannot profile anything to which you do not have source.
19:10.01madhavokay..
19:10.04jastaalso, the drawing toolkit is called SGL, not SDL.
19:10.19jastaProfiling makes no sense without source code, do you understand that?
19:10.45madhavyes, i got that
19:10.55jastaAnd Android is not open source.
19:11.09madhavyes, i know
19:11.17f00f-it will be
19:14.04jastamadhav: I guess I'm just confused by what ultimately you are trying to accomplish.
19:15.16madhavjasta: any way, thanks for answering...
19:28.10spykidBloomberg: Google Says Android Phones Are On Schedule for 2008
19:28.21spykidThis is pure marketing :D
19:28.46spykidhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aR9lQgliSTas&refer=home
19:29.33tethridgeit seems that google only responds when there is bad press out
19:30.18tethridgemaybe we should start spreading the "news" that the android project has been shutdown.  We could keep it up until they formally address our issues.
19:31.10f00f-old news
19:31.17f00f-olds
19:32.26anno^da_Hmm bad press, the press says that they missed the track. But what what track is the press refering to ß
19:32.27anno^da_?
19:33.19anno^da_Give me one press relase where they announced sth different than Q4 in the last weeks...
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19:35.20f00f-they ahvent
19:35.22f00f-thats the point
19:35.32f00f-the news coming out today is bullshit
19:35.46f00f-they're trying to make it seem like it's being pushed back
19:35.56anno^da_Thats what I wanted to say all the time
19:36.13anno^da_so why "it seems that google only responds when there is bad press out"
19:36.35f00f-on the defense, yeah it's natural with dot-com companies
19:36.40*** part/#android madhav (n=Administ@122.167.114.213)
19:37.53anno^da_For sure it would be better to have more communication but give me one big company that has a good communication (good communication in the sense of the most open source projects :) )
19:38.49michaelnovakjri just spoke to my friend at google and he said android is getting shutdown
19:40.03michaelnovakjri knew it
19:40.13anno^da_:)
19:40.21michaelnovakjrwhy are you smiling
19:40.23michaelnovakjrthis sucks
19:40.45anno^da_why am I smiling
19:40.56michaelnovakjr?
19:40.56trigatch4your friend at google haha
19:41.01trigatch4you don't have any friends at google
19:41.04trigatch4they all hate you
19:41.05anno^da_I don't believe you at all trolling around :D
19:41.06trigatch4;)
19:41.21michaelnovakjrhaha
19:41.40trigatch4engadgetmobile posted an article saying everyone is retarded
19:41.43trigatch4bless their souls
19:42.47tethridgemy co-worker was telling me about a blog where android was being merged with some other project and that was why it was delayed.
19:42.48trigatch4ZOMG! No Android phones till Q4 2008... right on schedule!
19:42.53trigatch4pretty funny ittle
19:42.55*** join/#android getoo (n=user@198.207.222.130)
19:42.59tethridgehe is supposed to send me the link
19:43.08michaelnovakjrtrigatch4: when he sends it post it
19:43.09tethridgeI'm not sure of what he is talking about it
19:43.13michaelnovakjri won't hold my breath
19:43.23trigatch4when he sends what?
19:43.42michaelnovakjrah
19:43.50michaelnovakjri meant tethridge
19:43.51getooi bought a Samsung Instict then i said Android should be out soon and i rather use android ... guess what i dont think sprint will release a phone with android
19:43.53getoothis year
19:43.55getoo:P
19:44.08getooi took back instict
19:44.11michaelnovakjrwow, we need to change the topoc
19:44.13michaelnovakjrtopic
19:44.21michaelnovakjrno speculation allowed!
19:44.37f00f-TOPOC!
19:44.43michaelnovakjrtopoc
19:44.47michaelnovakjri invented it
19:45.36f00f-good
19:45.37f00f-food
19:45.42f00f-bbiaf
19:46.02michaelnovakjrsure
19:47.05tethridge/topic  Google files for bankruptcy... ...Android project canceled!
19:49.00michaelnovakjrhaha
19:49.10anno^da_the talks here make me weird :D
19:49.19anno^da_I have to go back to work :)
19:49.25michaelnovakjrthey only lost 22% of their stock value over a year
19:58.24jastayawn
20:00.56michaelnovakjrwhat's up jasta
20:01.05anno^da_I love the guys looking at the stocks all the time and I love the analysts like Gartner :)
20:01.36michaelnovakjri don't look at stocks all the time
20:02.04jastamichaelnovakjr: not much, just working
20:02.11michaelnovakjrsame here
20:03.20michaelnovakjrwow the linux kernel guys have some fighting words for nvidia
20:03.26michaelnovakjrhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2587
20:03.31*** join/#android acet (n=acet@83-70-238-236.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
20:03.41michaelnovakjri don't get it, they should just be happy nvidia supports linux at all
20:07.45*** join/#android AstainHellbring (n=Administ@unaffiliated/astainhellbring)
20:09.46*** join/#android Mathiasdm (n=Mathias@78-22-5-158.access.telenet.be)
20:10.29*** join/#android morrildl (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-0dd823a8658db5c7)
20:11.26morrildlHmm
20:11.33morrildlI should probably change the channel topic
20:11.38morrildlIrish coffees are soooooooooooo two weeks ago
20:12.35trigatch4word to that
20:12.40michaelnovakjrlook what the cat dragged in
20:12.43michaelnovakjrhowd
20:12.44michaelnovakjry
20:12.51morrildlstupid international date line
20:12.59trigatch4comments on this whole "android is delayed" BS?
20:13.12michaelnovakjrcomment: no comment
20:13.23michaelnovakjrtrigatch4 is officially press, be careful around him :)
20:13.30trigatch4haha, thats what i'm expecting but you can always hope
20:14.26michaelnovakjrhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=606
20:14.29morrildlWell, obviously I don't know who the WSJ's sources are since they typically never name them, but mine are the ones managing the actual product schedule :)
20:14.30michaelnovakjrthere you go trigatch4
20:14.47morrildlAnd the last I heard, the ship date hasn't changed in months
20:14.51trigatch4And what does your project schedule say, Dan?
20:15.05morrildlSecond half of 2008 :)
20:15.08trigatch4For Android in general it hasn't.... always been 2nd half of 2008
20:15.31michaelnovakjrwow
20:15.35trigatch4Which is why this whole "android is delayed" thing is annoying and idiotic
20:15.38trigatch4But...
20:15.51michaelnovakjr:: trigatch4 can't take a hint ::
20:16.05trigatch4Sprint delaying to ship with WiMax... any validity there?
20:16.16morrildltrigatch4: you'd have to talk to Sprint
20:16.32trigatch4I was hoping you could have already talked to them for me
20:16.37morrildlUltimately it's the partners (carriers & OEMs) that are launching devices, not Google
20:16.42morrildlso these are their announcements to make
20:16.55trigatch4Fair enough
20:17.24michaelnovakjrdan, what about the sdk?
20:17.54trigatch4jasta: wake up ;)
20:18.24morrildlmichaelnovakjr: not sure, I just got back into the office from Sydney, and am catching up on email and stuff
20:18.35morrildlI knew it was a bad idea to log into IRC ;)
20:18.37morrildlhehehehehe
20:18.41michaelnovakjrhaha
20:19.00michaelnovakjrits just a pain when you have to stop development completely
20:19.06morrildlagrees
20:19.25michaelnovakjri'm just looking forward to getting back to developing that's all :)
20:20.06trigatch4why would it ever be a bad idea to log into IRC?
20:20.17morrildlall this reminds me that I need to go find Andy Rubin
20:20.22morrildlbe back in a bit
20:20.35michaelnovakjr:) enjoy
20:21.42jastatrigatch4: ?
20:21.59trigatch4morrildl graced us with his presence
20:22.07trigatch4i was hoping to sit back and watch some fireworks
20:22.10trigatch4hahah jk ;)
20:23.22jastais it special for morrildl to show up?
20:23.58michaelnovakjrhaha.
20:24.07trigatch4so i've heard
20:24.26jastahe hasn't been here for a while because he has nothing helpful to say, has anythign changed?
20:24.53michaelnovakjrjasta, not at all
20:25.07jastatrigatch4: well then, i'll happily go back to what i was doing :)
20:25.13michaelnovakjrhaha
20:25.16*** join/#android matt_c_ (n=mcroydon@gozur.sunflowerbroadband.com)
20:25.29trigatch4hahahaaaha
20:25.34trigatch4damnit
20:26.03*** join/#android edcba (i=edcba@nor75-17-82-67-199-204.fbx.proxad.net)
20:26.07trigatch4how do you know he has nothing helpful to say?
20:26.29michaelnovakjrbecause he would have said it
20:26.31jastadon't you think he'd be excited to say it if he did?
20:27.12michaelnovakjrpeople in here also only care whats going on so they can report on their blogs
20:27.19michaelnovakjrwell, not everyone
20:27.25michaelnovakjrbut they exist
20:27.48jastabtw, while i'm feeling ranty...
20:28.02jastamost of the android blogs out there and on planetandroid.com are terribly annoying.
20:28.11michaelnovakjrindeed
20:28.21jastaway too chatty, uninformative, and shallow.
20:28.28michaelnovakjrwhich i am sure is why googlers avoid coming here
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20:29.49jastamichaelnovakjr: for some reason, i have little respect for software geeks who aren't software engineers ;)
20:30.29michaelnovakjrit could be the lack of knowledge about the software :)
20:30.41jastaand i think a lot of those blogs are run by fanboys for a product in its current form they don't even understand :)
20:30.52jastabecause they haven't even tried to dev for it, i mean.
20:30.53michaelnovakjrof course
20:31.14michaelnovakjrat this stage of the game what's the point of blogging about something you can't even use?
20:31.26jastasilly too, because at present, Android's only keeping interest up because it actually is a fantastic platform to developer for.
20:31.31michaelnovakjrunless of course it is developer related... tutorials or coding practices
20:31.53trigatch4jasta: i hope phandroid isn't one of the "way too chatty, uninformative and shallow" ones
20:31.57trigatch4?
20:32.14michaelnovakjrare you a developer?
20:32.19trigatch4nope
20:32.50trigatch4i'm a fanboy of a product that i don't understand in its current form
20:32.53trigatch4jk
20:33.44michaelnovakjrit reminds me of appleinsider
20:33.50trigatch4the point in blogging about it is because EVERYbody is interested in it. its exciting.
20:33.55jastatrigatch4: actually, androidguys was the one i was referring to
20:34.26trigatch4why watch a movie if you can just skip to the end and see what happens
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20:34.41trigatch4jasta: i've had a flame war or two with those guys, they are pretty lame
20:34.45EA2009anyone experienced with embedded linux type 123
20:34.48trigatch4they don't report on just android
20:34.54trigatch4they expanded to basically everything
20:35.02trigatch4including things the avg android person doesnt care about
20:35.14michaelnovakjrandroidnerds.com will be the best site
20:35.26trigatch4they did a samsung instinct "review"... sprint gave it to them a day early... WORST review ever
20:35.31michaelnovakjrif you are a developer, or interested in the actual product
20:35.35trigatch41 picture... and like, "i think its cool!:
20:35.53*** join/#android romainguy__ (n=gfx@nat/google/x-2c79e20e324a262b)
20:35.59trigatch4shutup michael, the thought of androidnerds makes me want to commit suicide
20:36.05trigatch4hahaha i kid, i kid
20:36.35trigatch4micahelnovakjr: which one reminds you of appleinsider and why?
20:36.44EA2009Has anyone in here ever compiled their own kernel before?
20:37.05EA2009I need help.....
20:37.37michaelnovakjrEA2009, this isn't a linux kernel irc channel
20:37.46jastaEA2009: Yes, but I believe I have already talked to you about this.
20:37.49trigatch4*holds back urge to reference cell phones popping popcorn viral video*
20:38.40*** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@gozur.sunflowerbroadband.com)
20:38.43EA2009ah...jasta, my brother.....lol
20:39.09michaelnovakjrtrigatch4: phandroid.com reminds me of appleinsider
20:39.23michaelnovakjrits more news/rumors about android than a blog
20:39.43trigatch4so... is that a good thing or bad thing?
20:39.47jastaEA2009: IIRC, I attempted to convince you that if your familiarity with GNU, C, and Linux are not even to the level of compiling a kernel for your native machine, then you are much too far off from ever getting Android ported to existing hardware without simply copying someone else's work and instructions.
20:40.20*** part/#android EA2009 (n=E_Levi_A@pool-138-88-156-82.esr.east.verizon.net)
20:40.20jastaSo you should instead take a step down from your goal of focusing on Android or embedded Linux and just learn Linux first.  And C.
20:40.33michaelnovakjr??
20:40.44jastahe's a tard, don't mind him.
20:40.45michaelnovakjrhe's trying to port a kernel without knowing linux or c?
20:41.06trigatch4tell him to use a microwave, much easier than popping kernels by hand
20:41.41trigatch4jasta... he calls you "my brother" and you call him "a tard" hahahahah
20:41.43trigatch4priceless
20:42.06jastaif you haven't already noticed, i have very limited patience.
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20:42.21michaelnovakjrtrigatch4, androidnerds.com ... forever!
20:42.23jastaat least, i do when i'm not getting paid :)
20:42.31michaelnovakjrhaha
20:42.34michaelnovakjrdon't we all
20:42.39jastaor getting sex.
20:42.43*** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@gozur.sunflowerbroadband.com)
20:42.43jastaI guess basically I just have very limited patience on IRC :)
20:42.58trigatch4unless you get sex on IRC
20:43.03trigatch4in which case you'd be an androidnerd
20:43.05michaelnovakjruh what?
20:43.10trigatch4like mnovak
20:43.26trigatch4hahaha ah man
20:45.03trigatch4apologies, my attempts to amuse myself are working, but it seems I'm the only one amused :)
20:45.14michaelnovakjrhaha, i am confused
20:45.39anno^da_How old are you guys?
20:46.02michaelnovakjranno^da_ are you a developer
20:46.04anno^da_It's a mess to read that childish stuff all the time :)
20:46.23michaelnovakjrare you a developer?
20:46.30anno^da_not really now
20:46.33anno^da_no
20:46.35anno^da_-w
20:46.42michaelnovakjrwhat do you mean by not really?
20:46.57michaelnovakjrjasta, we should have an android dev channel on IRC
20:46.57anno^da_I'm just interested in that stuff ;)
20:47.05jastanah, i tried that once.  bad idea.
20:47.20michaelnovakjrwhat was wrong with it
20:47.38jastait just doesn't work unless you have a sufficiently large community
20:47.50michaelnovakjrtrue, but it cuts out all the crap
20:48.02jastawhich we don't here in #android.  There are like 8 regulars, 6 of which are devs.  What good would it do? :)
20:48.17jastamichaelnovakjr: Maybe, I dunno about you but I haven't talked about development in here for quite a while.
20:48.19cutmastaby all
20:48.23anno^da_And if I would be I wouldn't develope with you guys. I don't like that elitist thing
20:48.27michaelnovakjrme either
20:48.32trigatch4uhoh, looks like i'm getting kicked out
20:48.38michaelnovakjrjasta, without the new sdk there isn't anything to talk aobut
20:48.54jastaYeah.  We're just uncomfortably lurking.
20:49.00michaelnovakjrpretty much
20:49.10jastaHonestly, I'm just really bored hehe
20:49.18michaelnovakjrme too
20:49.24jastaI started working through the 3rd volume of TAOCP, even ;)
20:49.25michaelnovakjri want to get back to programming
20:49.27jastato give you a sense of my boredom
20:49.30michaelnovakjrhaha
20:49.37trigatch4i need to make some damn money
20:51.02jastaanno^da_: you don't know many programmers, do you? :)
20:51.07michaelnovakjrhaha
20:51.14michaelnovakjrthat's an obvious one
20:51.34michaelnovakjrjasta, was it you that posted the IT crowd link last week?
20:51.47jastamichaelnovakjr: I dunno?
20:51.58michaelnovakjrguess not
20:52.00jastaI don't know what the IT crowd is though, so probably not.
20:52.16michaelnovakjrits a pretty funny show from england
20:52.25romainguy__-funny
20:52.27romainguy__:p
20:52.28michaelnovakjrnbc is picking it up this fall in the states
20:52.47jastamichaelnovakjr: That does not compute.
20:52.58jasta"Funny" and "From England" can't agree.
20:53.01michaelnovakjrhaha
20:53.11michaelnovakjrnot a fan of british television?
20:53.18trigatch4I love "The Office" American version...
20:53.18jastaSo you must mean dry and boring.
20:53.23trigatch4I heard the British version was hilarious
20:53.23jastaWell, not British comedy, no.
20:53.34jastatrigatch4: I've watched the British version and it's not.  I mean, it's OK.
20:53.41trigatch4I watched 1 episode and midway through thought about hanging myself
20:53.43jastaBut it's also just as awkward and terrible as it is funny, s.
20:53.45jastaso*
20:53.48michaelnovakjrjasta, i'll give you that .... it is certainly dry
20:53.51michaelnovakjrbut funny
20:53.53trigatch4its just dumb
20:54.02michaelnovakjrand the IT Crowd I found funnier than the british office
20:54.26michaelnovakjrextras is quite good though
20:54.28jastaIt's just well known internationally that English humor is bad.  English food is bad too.
20:54.37michaelnovakjrhaha English food
20:54.42trigatch4English women too so I hear
20:54.42michaelnovakjrnow that's a good one
20:54.44trigatch4:)
20:54.53jastaYeah, basically England is the worst.
20:54.53anno^da_jasta: I do know some even in the linux world but they are much more friendly (ah bad english :) ) than you are. Ok it could be irony but irony all the time can be very exhausting.
20:54.54jasta;)
20:55.04trigatch4They should do an American version of IT Crowd then, no?
20:55.13michaelnovakjrtrigatch4:
20:55.17michaelnovakjrread above
20:55.21michaelnovakjrnbc is this fall
20:55.27f00f-US Office >>>> UK Office
20:55.42trigatch4oops, gotchya
20:55.48trigatch4f00f yes you are correct
20:55.53michaelnovakjranno^da_, its hard to be nice when all people do is speculate
20:56.19michaelnovakjrthis channel was more about programming when the sdk wasn't officially from the stone age
20:56.27f00f-feels obliged to read scrollback to see what's being discussed
20:56.41f00f-should i bother?
20:56.42michaelnovakjrf00f-: as usual, nothing of importance
20:56.49michaelnovakjrrambling at best
20:56.50f00f-k, thx m8
20:56.52trigatch4and then i came and polluted it with my offtopic BS and everyone wants to kick me off Survivor Season 27
20:57.04michaelnovakjrhaha
20:57.36jastaf00f-: Oh yeah, this channel is drivel :)
20:57.38michaelnovakjrall i have to say is that whoever came up with the NDA idea must not have heard of branching
20:58.09jastaactually, that's what i had to say ;)
20:58.12f00f-brne regA, regB, label
20:58.38michaelnovakjrjasta, do you like git?
20:58.57jastaactually, i'm quite unfamiliar with git.  i feel like i should be embarrassed by that :)
20:59.03michaelnovakjrna
20:59.09michaelnovakjrits not all that popular
20:59.23michaelnovakjri have started using it a bit
20:59.30f00f-epic fail jasta at not knowing major open source tool
20:59.42michaelnovakjri wouldn't call it major
20:59.45michaelnovakjryet
20:59.54f00f-i guess within OSS community?
20:59.56michaelnovakjrthe linux kernel uses it
21:00.05michaelnovakjrgoogle apparently uses it
21:00.09f00f-i'm using SVN for my project
21:00.11michaelnovakjrprobably not all of google
21:00.17f00f-changeset concept is all that's missing from CVS imho
21:00.21michaelnovakjrfreebsd finally went to SVN
21:00.26anno^da_michaelnovakjr: Yeah I can understand that. At the moment you can not specualte at all untill there is sth. new from Google or the OHA. Soooo I will not speculate either. Just for you. :-)
21:00.40michaelnovakjr:)
21:00.50michaelnovakjrfreebsd up until recently was still using cvs
21:01.41michaelnovakjri have both an svn server and git server, i've used svn far more, but git seemed interesting
21:01.55f00f-but is no more?
21:02.13michaelnovakjrthere's a torvalds talk on git posted on youtube
21:02.27romainguy__mercurial is interesting too
21:02.28michaelnovakjrbasically opens the talk up by bashing cvs and svn
21:02.29romainguy__similar to git
21:02.32michaelnovakjryes
21:02.59michaelnovakjri've played with mercurial too
21:03.14*** join/#android matt_c (n=mcroydon@gozur.sunflowerbroadband.com)
21:03.22michaelnovakjrthey are both considered distributed systems
21:03.35f00f-well
21:03.39f00f-dude
21:03.43f00f-bitkeeper did all that years ago
21:03.47michaelnovakjryes
21:03.58michaelnovakjrthat is actually where the git idea came from
21:04.04jastai really only know cvs and svn.
21:04.11jastai am sufficiently happy with svn not to explore alternatives.
21:04.25f00f-codeville seems cool too but they're lagging
21:04.29jastathough i have not worked in a massive commercial source tree in quite a while
21:04.48michaelnovakjri have noticed that git holds up better with larger projects
21:05.02f00f-define large
21:05.35trigatch4jasta: AndroidGuys have 3 articles today and their titles are 1) Slowing Android Down (announcing the delays), 2) Delay: First Android Handsets End of 2008, and 3) For The Last Time, There Is No Delay
21:05.44trigatch4haha that what you mean?
21:05.48f00f-heh
21:05.53michaelnovakjrabsolutely yes
21:06.06michaelnovakjrf00f-: large code base and large contributor base
21:06.15f00f-funny
21:06.19michaelnovakjr?
21:08.21*** part/#android getoo (n=user@198.207.222.130)
21:08.58f00f-well we had a CVS server here with 13 GB of shit and about 100-150 active users
21:08.59michaelnovakjrf00f-: what's funny?
21:09.03f00f-it gets unwieldy after a while
21:09.16michaelnovakjrsvn is an 'improved' cvs
21:09.31michaelnovakjrthey are still conceptually the same, just without the cvs shit
21:09.40f00f-changesets are a big thing
21:09.44f00f-when things need to be rolled back
21:09.55f00f-which may be often when build breaks
21:10.04michaelnovakjrsure, that is a big part of version control :)
21:10.17f00f-i dont think cvs supports it very nicely :)
21:10.29michaelnovakjrnope
21:10.44jastacvs supports that concept, but cvs' big problem is that nothing was very convenient :)
21:10.45michaelnovakjri hate cvs
21:10.59michaelnovakjrsubversion i like
21:11.04michaelnovakjreven git isn't bad
21:11.16trigatch4alright devs, i'll leave you to your suprior conversation and delight you with my exit
21:11.29trigatch4enjoy the rest of the day guys
21:11.33michaelnovakjr:)
21:13.42michaelnovakjrthe torvalds talk on git is interesting... any one interested ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
21:15.54tethridgepersonally, I have fallen in love with bazaar
21:16.03tethridgemysql just started using it
21:16.18tethridgefor me, I wanted something feature rich that was easy to administer
21:16.49tethridgein about 5 commands you can put a project under source control and configure it to automatically backup the branch each time you commit to a box running ssh
21:17.25BerylliumI use Subversion currently, it's less clunky than CVS ... but that's not saying a whole lot
21:17.31michaelnovakjrbackups are easy
21:17.41michaelnovakjryou can set that up via a hook
21:18.09tethridgeyeah, but svn isn't as easy to admin as bazaar for small projects
21:18.16tethridgelet me get you the link
21:18.47Beryllium*shrug* I use SVN for small projects at home
21:19.04BerylliumTortoiseSVN simplifies it a whole bunch, as does Subclipse.
21:19.09jastai use SVN as well.
21:19.16jastai run a lcoal server in my home network
21:19.17michaelnovakjri wouldn't say tortoise helps
21:19.20michaelnovakjrsvn is so easy
21:19.26michaelnovakjreven command line is simple
21:19.33michaelnovakjrand creating projects takes no time at all
21:19.42f00f-it does
21:19.43michaelnovakjryou can write hooks in any scripting language you want
21:19.44jastafor most of my development on Five, i used my lcaol server.
21:19.46tethridgehttp://www.emcken.dk/weblog/archives/200-Bazaar-bzr-howto-Creating-your-own-branch.html
21:19.48f00f-i use subclipse exclusively
21:20.03michaelnovakjryea jasta, i have a git/svn server at home running Trac with it
21:20.08jastai hated subclipse ;)
21:20.10michaelnovakjrTrac is awesome
21:20.37f00f-it's just like cvsplugin
21:20.50jastai just didn't like how it was integrated into Eclipse.
21:21.05jastai typically wound up doing everything in a terminal, even whilst developing the source in Eclipse
21:21.28jastai actually don't like the preview stuff either.  i really just prefer a colored unidiff output ;)
21:21.39jastait's easier to quickly answer the question "ok, what did i do here?"
21:21.54tethridgeI'm not saying subversion is hard, I'm just saying bazaar is easier
21:22.15tethridgeit has a lot of features that fix issues in cvs/svn
21:22.19f00f-agree, color is lacking
21:22.38BerylliumI do my merges/diffs in WinMerge
21:22.41jastaf00f-: I mean I just run svndiff | vim - usually :)
21:22.45jastaerr svn diff
21:22.59tethridgedon't take my word for it, just read through the user guide, it's well written.  This assumes you care.  :-)
21:24.58michaelnovakjranyone using git or svn should check out trac for a web based system for management
21:25.05michaelnovakjrwhen you release its a bug tracker and all
21:25.12michaelnovakjrcool stuff for public projects
21:25.15tethridgeadd baazar to that list, it has support for trac
21:25.27tethridgetrac is a really nice app
21:26.08tethridgemichaelnovakjr, did you skim that link I sent?
21:26.54michaelnovakjrnice
21:26.56michaelnovakjrone sec
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21:47.10f00f-i wish trac supported cvs
21:47.17f00f-cvstrac is lame
21:47.23f00f-i tried to use it with aforementioned 13 GB CVS repo
21:47.25f00f-and it failed
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21:51.46michaelnovakjrCVS sucks
21:52.09thesnarkYou mean CVS rocks?
21:52.21f00f-rox
21:53.22michaelnovakjrwhat?
21:53.31michaelnovakjrwhy would you use cvs when you can use svn
21:53.48thesnarkCVS is so intuitive and logical
21:54.11tethridgemichaelnovakjr, thoughts?  :-)
21:54.18michaelnovakjrhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
21:54.21michaelnovakjrwatch that :)
21:54.22morrildlthesnark: what was that, some snark?  Are you snarking on CVS?
21:54.28michaelnovakjri am
21:54.34morrildlthesnark: I never would have imagined
21:54.35michaelnovakjri am not a cvs fan
21:54.45tethridgeis it SFW?
21:55.02f00f-this chan is supposedly 100% sfw
21:55.23michaelnovakjrsfw?
21:55.27tethridgesafe for work
21:55.36michaelnovakjrwhy wouldn't it be?
21:55.38tethridgeas opposed to NSFW
21:58.30thesnarkmorrildl why, never! :)
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22:12.15f00f-morrildl: you gotta chill more in here
22:12.21f00f-you guys can't be too busy over there
22:12.48michaelnovakjrna, they are only changing the way the mobile industry works
22:13.01michaelnovakjrthat can't be too hard
22:17.56morrildlactually I've just been in Sydney
22:18.16morrildlJason Chen was in China & Tokyo
22:18.29morrildlbefore that was Google I/O
22:18.48*** mode/#android [+o morrildl] by ChanServ
22:19.04*** topic/#android by morrildl -> Hey, did anyone make it to any of our international Developer Days?
22:24.03f00f-cool
22:24.19f00f-well now that you're back, hopefully morale around here improves
22:26.27tethridgemorrildl, any official comment on the demise of the android project?
22:27.23morrildltethridge: What are you looking for?  "Rumors of our demise have been greatly exaggerated"?
22:27.35tethridgethat's a start.  :-)
22:27.44tethridgenow the demise of the latest sdk?
22:28.20morrildlHeh, can there be a demise when there isn't yet a latest SDK? :P
22:29.52tethridgeit died on the way to the release
22:30.05f00f-it was murdered
22:30.32morrildlI still have no information on the next SDK drop :(
22:32.10tethridgemorrildl, I would just appreciate an honest update on the android blog.  Do you think you get somebody to do that?
22:32.42tethridgeno sdk, fine, I'm sure there are legit reasons.  I just hate being put out in the dark and ignored
22:33.14f00f-yeah bro, just post a quick 50-100 words to the blog
22:33.48tethridgefor what it's worth, I am serious
22:37.42jastalol, now slashdot picked up the drivel from today
22:46.35jastaof all the bad press Android deserves, this is not it ;)
22:47.00tethridgeslashdot notes that google disagrees with the article
22:54.15jastaman, i'm getting really close to a working example of libsyncml on the client-side, but there are just so many frustrating gotchas in this library :(
22:54.29jastaafter i get this working it should only be a week or two to a working proof-of-concept Rhythmbox plugin
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23:11.10dueylol delayed
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23:49.00gamblerjust grepped thru ch histor
23:49.18gamblerhistory. is IT Crowd supposed to be worth watching or not
23:54.21jerkface03pretty unfunny
23:54.31jerkface03like all british comedy shows
23:54.36jerkface03except for mr.bean
23:54.38jerkface03who's super funny
23:55.06f00f-;p
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23:57.45umdk1d4sigh stuck in denvar airport
23:58.55f00f-what's going down there?
23:59.15umdk1d4well im suposta be going to san jmose
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23:59.23umdk1d4*jose
23:59.30f00f-oh
23:59.34f00f-coming here?
23:59.36f00f-what for?
23:59.42umdk1d4job interview
23:59.52f00f-coming from where?

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