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| 13:10.22 | trigatch4 | whattup people |
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| 14:08.00 | michaelnovakjr | howdy |
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| 14:29.44 | jasta | yawn |
| 14:29.46 | jasta | that was a cool trip :) |
| 14:29.53 | Dougie187 | you had fun? |
| 14:30.00 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 14:31.09 | jasta | oh yeah, there was one point i was at about 20 feet above the water where you could see more than 180 degree panoramic view of the water, lights from bellingham, wa, the coast of sidney island in bc, the olympics in the distnace, and mt baker |
| 14:31.46 | jasta | seals, bald eagles, and porpuses were so common that toward the end of the trip everyone was like "ohh, what's that!? oh nevermind, it's just a bald eagle again." |
| 14:31.55 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 14:32.06 | jasta | several times while we were paddling seals would come right up to the boats |
| 14:32.22 | jasta | when we landed on the beach for lunch the second day, a dear walked right by and paid no attention to us as we were docking our kayaks |
| 14:32.30 | jasta | less than 10 feet from everyone |
| 14:32.37 | jasta | just strolled through |
| 14:32.57 | jasta | and a bald eagle was on the beach the first day...we had to sit and wait for him to fly away before we could go in and eat hehe |
| 14:33.33 | jasta | didnt see any orca whales though, unfortunately. i guess the reports were that they were all spotted up in vancouver this weekend |
| 14:35.54 | tethridge | jasta, what kind of kayak were you using? |
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| 14:36.09 | tethridge | I'm in the market, I'm looking for opinions. I've never owned one before |
| 14:36.14 | jasta | not sure, i dont know anything about kayaks. they were very easy to control, tandem kayaks though |
| 14:36.28 | jasta | didnt ever feel like we were going to flip and we were in pretty massive open waters |
| 14:36.33 | jasta | here, let me show you on a map where i ended up |
| 14:36.37 | tethridge | do you remember the brand? Sit on top? |
| 14:37.40 | jasta | no i dont, sorry. what do you mean by sit on top? |
| 14:38.00 | tethridge | it's just a style of kayak |
| 14:38.16 | tethridge | usually either sit on top or sit in |
| 14:38.28 | tethridge | sit in has the big oval hole |
| 14:38.29 | jasta | we sat in |
| 14:39.01 | tethridge | did you carry your gear with you in the kayak? |
| 14:39.29 | jasta | yes, there were 3 compartments for that (they were tandem kayaks) |
| 14:39.55 | jasta | http://tinyurl.com/4osyr8 |
| 14:40.14 | jasta | so, you see that point on the island in the center way off to the upper-left? |
| 14:40.39 | jasta | in the green state park area? we were standing at that point right on the edge of the water |
| 14:41.05 | tethridge | cool |
| 14:41.26 | jasta | and we launched from roche harbor, which is down below on san juan island and we paddled all over the place |
| 14:42.16 | jasta | paddled probably 4 miles each day, and hiked 6 miles to that lighthouse on stuart island |
| 14:43.54 | jasta | we watched the sunset out there |
| 14:44.26 | jasta | http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4356051 -- thats a perfect photo showing the cliff we were on, watching all this stuff |
| 14:44.45 | tethridge | beautiful |
| 14:44.55 | tethridge | I bet the water is still pretty cold |
| 14:45.02 | jasta | i cant find any pictures there of the view tho. seems everyone just took photos of structures :) |
| 14:45.12 | jasta | oh yeah, it was like 42 deg F |
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| 14:45.42 | jasta | but man it was an awesome deal |
| 14:45.47 | jasta | im so tired tho |
| 14:45.56 | jasta | between hiking and kayaking for 2 days straight, sheesh :) |
| 14:46.20 | jasta | and im feeling pretty crispy after all that direct exposure to the sun :) |
| 14:46.56 | jasta | it was my birthday yesterday, so that was a pretty cool experience to celebrate |
| 14:49.14 | Dougie187 | hey michaelnovakjr: did you get that thing i sent you in here? |
| 14:49.33 | Dougie187 | thats good you had fun jasta |
| 14:49.35 | michaelnovakjr | ? |
| 14:49.58 | tethridge | well, happy belated birthday |
| 14:50.06 | jasta | thanks |
| 14:50.07 | Dougie187 | it was about the M1530 i think. |
| 14:50.20 | Dougie187 | lemme look one sec |
| 14:50.25 | Dougie187 | i sent it like 2 days ago |
| 14:50.28 | michaelnovakjr | ok what was it? |
| 14:51.23 | Dougie187 | http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/bogo_deals?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&dgc=CJ&cid=24471&lid=755922 |
| 14:51.37 | Dougie187 | buy one get one 1/2 off. |
| 14:52.12 | Dougie187 | also, |
| 14:52.19 | Dougie187 | oh, nm its expired. |
| 14:52.32 | Dougie187 | on the 28th they had a M1330 at staples for 800 |
| 14:52.33 | michaelnovakjr | damn! |
| 14:52.48 | michaelnovakjr | i would have snatched that |
| 14:53.00 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 14:53.06 | Dougie187 | here is a review of it. |
| 14:53.08 | Dougie187 | http://bensbargains.net/deal/68909/ |
| 14:54.53 | michaelnovakjr | i like the look of it |
| 14:57.40 | Dougie187 | seems like the review is good. |
| 14:57.53 | Dougie187 | ill let you know if i see any more deals for it though |
| 14:59.41 | michaelnovakjr | thanks! |
| 14:59.52 | michaelnovakjr | staples doesn't have it for $800 anymore? |
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| 15:01.52 | Dougie187 | not afaik |
| 15:01.55 | Dougie187 | it says expired. |
| 15:01.59 | Dougie187 | and it was posted on the 28th |
| 15:02.03 | michaelnovakjr | damn |
| 15:02.06 | Dougie187 | you can always call though |
| 15:02.12 | michaelnovakjr | true |
| 15:02.13 | tethridge | I saw those at sams club |
| 15:02.39 | tethridge | I compared the built in web cam with the hp laptops, and the hp web cams were much better |
| 15:02.47 | tethridge | I do like the new look of the dells though |
| 15:02.57 | michaelnovakjr | yea, im not really much of a webcam user |
| 15:03.09 | jasta | who uses webcams anyway? |
| 15:03.10 | tethridge | I'm not either, but it was a huge difference |
| 15:03.23 | michaelnovakjr | i have a macbook pro and i have never used it |
| 15:03.37 | tethridge | I know I'm looking at having them to let the grandparents talk with my kids |
| 15:03.38 | Dougie187 | yeah, who cares about webcames? |
| 15:03.38 | jasta | the webcam in my lenovo doesnt work in linux and i couldnt care less |
| 15:03.39 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:04.00 | Dougie187 | if thats what your looking for in a laptop its not that hard to find a cheap one and then get a decent webcam added on. |
| 15:04.08 | michaelnovakjr | haha yea i |
| 15:04.16 | tethridge | yeah, but most laptops come with web cams today |
| 15:04.24 | tethridge | gotta copy apple, ya know |
| 15:04.28 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:04.36 | Dougie187 | that doesnt mean they are any good though, or that people want them. |
| 15:04.42 | michaelnovakjr | tethridge: of course :) |
| 15:04.50 | Dougie187 | if i could save money by not getting a webcam in a laptop i wouldnt get one. |
| 15:05.53 | michaelnovakjr | me too |
| 15:06.36 | tethridge | hopefully they will get to be so cheap that it won't even matter |
| 15:06.49 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 15:07.19 | Dougie187 | i mean, its not like they are any better then cell phone cameras. |
| 15:08.02 | michaelnovakjr | what do you mean? my camera phone replaced my digital camera? |
| 15:08.55 | Dougie187 | lol, no replaced your laptops webcam |
| 15:09.20 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 15:09.33 | Dougie187 | man, now i have to get addicted to diablo 2 again... |
| 15:09.33 | michaelnovakjr | netgear released an open source router today |
| 15:09.36 | Dougie187 | :( |
| 15:10.02 | Dougie187 | thats cool. |
| 15:10.10 | michaelnovakjr | 70 bucks |
| 15:10.20 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: really? which one? |
| 15:10.37 | michaelnovakjr | its based on the white wireless one they have now |
| 15:10.52 | michaelnovakjr | they actually look the same, but its the firmware that makes it special |
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| 15:11.15 | michaelnovakjr | http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9185 |
| 15:11.15 | jasta | openwrt supported? |
| 15:11.29 | michaelnovakjr | ^ that's the link to an article about it ^ |
| 15:11.33 | tethridge | yeah |
| 15:12.48 | michaelnovakjr | i hope it sticks... there should be routers available that you can customize more |
| 15:13.08 | Dougie187 | i use to own that router. |
| 15:13.11 | Dougie187 | and it melted on me. |
| 15:13.16 | Dougie187 | it over heated, and melted. |
| 15:13.19 | Dougie187 | literally. |
| 15:13.41 | Dougie187 | btw, jasta. I got War3 running in linux. |
| 15:13.58 | michaelnovakjr | i have that router now.... hasn't given me any trouble |
| 15:14.05 | Dougie187 | well. |
| 15:14.06 | Dougie187 | it melted on me. |
| 15:14.08 | michaelnovakjr | did better than the linksys one i had |
| 15:14.11 | Dougie187 | only router that has done that. |
| 15:14.31 | Dougie187 | i think it still works. |
| 15:14.36 | Dougie187 | but it has a hole in the top of it. |
| 15:14.40 | Dougie187 | and its all brown now. |
| 15:15.51 | michaelnovakjr | damn |
| 15:15.56 | Dougie187 | yeah |
| 15:16.06 | Dougie187 | i bought a linksys one after that. |
| 15:16.26 | michaelnovakjr | i have had bad luck with linksys |
| 15:16.36 | trigatch4 | anybody here good with photoshop? |
| 15:17.00 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 15:17.02 | trigatch4 | http://phandroid.com/2008/06/30/android-robot-photoshop-contest-win-50/ |
| 15:17.41 | michaelnovakjr | we are really reaching for headlines huh |
| 15:19.54 | trigatch4 | hahaha |
| 15:19.58 | trigatch4 | thats the point |
| 15:20.06 | trigatch4 | there is nothing newsworthy going on at the moment |
| 15:23.25 | michaelnovakjr | because you are running a news site about a product that isn't available :) |
| 15:24.27 | trigatch4 | this is true |
| 15:24.53 | trigatch4 | we're all guilty of following a highly anticipated product launch... sue me! ;) |
| 15:25.46 | michaelnovakjr | i'm actually trying to develop for it :) |
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| 15:35.40 | trigatch4 | oh stop being such a nerd |
| 15:35.43 | trigatch4 | you're guilty, you know it |
| 15:35.48 | trigatch4 | ;) |
| 15:36.16 | michaelnovakjr | guilty of what? |
| 15:37.20 | trigatch4 | loving phandroid ;) hehe jk |
| 15:37.24 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
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| 15:37.35 | trigatch4 | gobbling up every bit of android info you can |
| 15:37.57 | michaelnovakjr | if you haven't noticed i absolutely hate unfounded hype and speculation |
| 15:38.21 | trigatch4 | unfounded hype i agree |
| 15:38.27 | trigatch4 | what about founded hype |
| 15:38.33 | trigatch4 | or would you consider that an oxymoron |
| 15:38.58 | michaelnovakjr | well, there could be founded hype :) |
| 15:39.01 | trigatch4 | and if "unfounded hype" is an oxymoron than the word "unfounded" would be redundant, meaning you hate hype in general |
| 15:39.04 | trigatch4 | gotchya |
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| 16:24.44 | jasta | morrildl: check out where i was: http://tinyurl.com/4osyr8 |
| 16:24.57 | jasta | follow the island all the way to the state park in the upper left...i stood at the tip there :) |
| 16:25.13 | jasta | >180deg panoramic view of the water, canadian islands, etc. |
| 16:25.27 | jasta | the only thing that's there is a light house |
| 16:28.10 | jasta | anyway, off to work |
| 16:28.16 | morrildl | nice, you can see the lighthouse :) |
| 16:28.25 | morrildl | (in satellite view) |
| 16:28.34 | jasta | kayaked from roche harbor, which is at the big island below it |
| 16:28.40 | morrildl | cool |
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| 16:30.31 | jasta | http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4356051 -- we were standing on that cliff watching the sunset... |
| 16:31.04 | jasta | what you dont see from that picture is that everything to the right is a stunning landscape of mountains, islands, and open water |
| 16:31.13 | jasta | ill post my geotagged pictures tomorrow :) |
| 16:32.52 | morrildl | jasta: nice :) |
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| 18:45.07 | jasta | morrildl: *poke*, check pm |
| 18:47.01 | jasta | raises an eyebrow at mxcl |
| 18:47.09 | jasta | @last.fm, eh? |
| 18:48.56 | morrildl | jasta: thanks, got it |
| 18:49.01 | morrildl | gotta run to a meeting, will digest in a bit |
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| 19:08.21 | jasta | stumbles upon something interesting |
| 19:08.26 | jasta | Android code appearing in the Gears source tree ;) |
| 19:08.43 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 19:09.19 | jasta | looks like its on accident tho |
| 19:09.38 | michaelnovakjr | what makes you think that? |
| 19:09.50 | jasta | well, the source code would not build of course |
| 19:09.54 | jasta | its missing all sorts of stuff |
| 19:10.09 | jasta | like one module implements the android message queue, using some interface none of us could have seen |
| 19:10.18 | jasta | and it is missing the header(s) necessary to make that code work |
| 19:10.33 | jasta | in fact, it's entirely missing the directory that the headers are alleged to be in, gears/base/android |
| 19:10.37 | michaelnovakjr | interesting |
| 19:10.49 | jasta | other places where android is mentioned, its just a TODO stub : |
| 19:11.01 | jasta | )#include "gears/base/android/java_jni.h" |
| 19:11.08 | jasta | i'd like to see that file ;) |
| 19:12.04 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 19:12.15 | jasta | apparently we know that John Ripley is the guy implementing the support :) |
| 19:12.25 | michaelnovakjr | haha |
| 19:12.27 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 19:12.34 | michaelnovakjr | harass him :) |
| 19:17.09 | jasta | as of late, ive been exploring around other open source projects of googles |
| 19:17.15 | jasta | getting a sense for how they will handle this, structure the code, etc |
| 19:24.58 | michaelnovakjr | i've played around with the web toolkit |
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| 19:45.16 | morrildl | I wouldn't take Gears, GWT, etc. as particularly representative of how Android's source will be structured |
| 19:47.17 | jasta | morrildl: perhaps you wouldn't, but you also have privileged information where we have none. |
| 19:48.13 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 19:48.17 | morrildl | well |
| 19:48.23 | michaelnovakjr | not that there's anything wrong with those projects :) |
| 19:48.39 | morrildl | I'm just referring to the fact that Android will be quite a bit larger than Gears and GWT :) |
| 19:48.48 | morrildl | the build system will look radically different, etc. |
| 19:48.49 | michaelnovakjr | absolutely |
| 19:49.05 | morrildl | I'm just saying that there's no internal best practice or standard way of structuring code or setting up a build system |
| 19:49.16 | morrildl | ...for the open source projects, I mean |
| 19:49.22 | morrildl | internal-only code has various standards |
| 19:49.43 | michaelnovakjr | i still want to work for google |
| 19:54.25 | morrildl | Today's fun Android fact: |
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| 19:54.38 | jasta | hey you guys see that Diablo3 was announced? :) |
| 19:55.34 | jasta | and it looks really gory :) |
| 19:55.41 | morrildl | A full Android rebuild takes around 25 minutes (excluding the kernel, which is pre-built in the tree), on a quad-core box |
| 19:56.20 | jasta | well, g++ is really inefficient |
| 19:56.26 | romainguy_ | morrildl: and one hour on a MacBook Pro Core2Duo :) |
| 19:56.28 | jasta | and probably so is javac :) |
| 19:56.45 | morrildl | The GWT guys discovered that one of the hugest time sinks is jar |
| 19:56.45 | michaelnovakjr | jeez that is a long time |
| 19:56.54 | morrildl | they do some really dumb N^2 things in jar |
| 19:56.57 | romainguy_ | actually javac is probably one of the fastest part of our build :) |
| 19:56.58 | jasta | also, is the build system taking advantage of multiple cores? |
| 19:57.04 | morrildl | jasta: yes |
| 19:57.06 | romainguy_ | jasta: yes |
| 19:57.21 | romainguy_ | 25 minutes it with make -j 8 |
| 19:57.25 | romainguy_ | -it+is |
| 19:57.26 | morrildl | I remember building a Linux kernel that took an hour and a half |
| 19:57.37 | morrildl | (back in the day I mean) |
| 19:57.40 | michaelnovakjr | ah |
| 19:57.40 | jasta | make -j greatly exceeding the number of cores available is less than optimal |
| 19:57.51 | michaelnovakjr | i was going to say, i did that yesterday and it was pretty fast |
| 19:57.52 | morrildl | so an entire OS in 25 minutes is pretty fast all things considered :) |
| 19:57.57 | morrildl | jasta: depends on what your build is doing |
| 19:58.02 | romainguy_ | jasta: not true, -j 8 is faster than -j 4 |
| 19:58.06 | morrildl | if you have a lot of things blocking on I/O -- which we do -- then it can help |
| 19:58.07 | romainguy_ | on our 4-core boxes |
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| 19:58.34 | jasta | romainguy_: the make team actually recommends you marginally exceed the number of cares available, but not greatly exceeding it. as their job management overhead is great. |
| 19:58.44 | jasta | cores* |
| 19:59.02 | morrildl | yeah I haven't seen much difference between -j6 and -j8 |
| 19:59.03 | romainguy_ | I don't care what they say, for this build on this machine, -j 8 seems to be the sweet spot |
| 19:59.12 | jasta | romainguy_: well, -j6 is what theyd recommend |
| 19:59.22 | jasta | and as morrildl just confirmed, that is consistent with what the make team says. |
| 19:59.31 | romainguy_ | again I don't care |
| 19:59.37 | romainguy_ | I'm the one doing these builds every day |
| 19:59.41 | jasta | all it means is that you don't care that they are correct ;) |
| 19:59.42 | morrildl | heh :) |
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| 20:00.04 | morrildl | i do a build maybe a couple times a week |
| 20:00.17 | cutmasta | hy |
| 20:00.18 | morrildl | so to me 25 vs. 35 minutes isn't that much |
| 20:00.23 | morrildl | I defer to romainguy_ :) |
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| 20:00.49 | romainguy_ | morrildl: I do at least half a dozen full builds a day, at least one of them being a clean build :) |
| 20:00.59 | jasta | still, i'd imagine a great majority of your code is in C++, and g++ is miserably slow ;) |
| 20:01.08 | morrildl | eh |
| 20:01.20 | morrildl | of the native code, a huge portion of it is WebKit |
| 20:01.27 | morrildl | the majority is probably in Java source |
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| 20:01.39 | morrildl | although I've never done the math |
| 20:01.51 | morrildl | but there's less native code than you might think |
| 20:01.53 | jasta | morrildl: well, you'd be in a better position to know that than i |
| 20:01.59 | jasta | i'm just speculating, after all |
| 20:02.20 | jasta | but also, isn't webkit written in C++? |
| 20:02.23 | morrildl | is it? |
| 20:02.26 | romainguy_ | dex is taking a lot of time to |
| 20:02.27 | jasta | i don't know |
| 20:02.28 | jasta | never looked |
| 20:02.33 | morrildl | I know very nearly jack about WebKit |
| 20:03.17 | jasta | looks like it is C++, yes. |
| 20:03.35 | jasta | tried to google it and happened upon a coding style guide, which gives examples using C++ |
| 20:03.39 | romainguy_ | WebKit is C++ |
| 20:03.58 | jasta | right, and how much of that 25 minutes is webkit? a lot, i bet ;) |
| 20:04.47 | jasta | i have observed comparably sized projects taking an order of magnitude longer to build as a result of C++ (and g++) features being utilized. |
| 20:04.58 | jasta | C projects, using gcc, tend to compile much faster :) |
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| 20:39.19 | michaelnovakjr | jasta, do you use a lot of c++? |
| 20:39.50 | jasta | no, not at all |
| 20:39.57 | michaelnovakjr | yea, same here |
| 20:40.03 | michaelnovakjr | rarely do i use |
| 20:40.05 | jasta | i really wouldn't consider it fair to say i even know C++ |
| 20:40.13 | jasta | since ive never written anything significant using it |
| 20:40.50 | michaelnovakjr | i'm half way through a diff tool using c++ (qt) |
| 20:40.54 | jasta | it has not appealed to me. until very recently, it was no where i wanted to be :) |
| 20:41.33 | michaelnovakjr | i'm writing a diff tool in qt that can be used on windows and linux/unix to read diffs with a gui |
| 20:41.45 | michaelnovakjr | the key point of the whole thing is the windows |
| 20:41.53 | michaelnovakjr | trying to read linux diffs on windows sucks! |
| 20:42.10 | tethridge | michaelnovakjr, have you seen meld? |
| 20:42.13 | tethridge | it's gtk |
| 20:42.18 | tethridge | so it should run on windows |
| 20:42.29 | michaelnovakjr | nope... it didn't come up in my numerous searches |
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| 20:42.55 | tethridge | check it out. http://meld.sourceforge.net/ |
| 20:43.42 | tethridge | I use it with hardy. Those screen shots use an old theme, but it works fine. |
| 20:44.04 | tethridge | when I see screen shots with old themes I usually think "unmaintained code" |
| 20:44.37 | michaelnovakjr | it uses gnome |
| 20:44.45 | michaelnovakjr | or i should say requires gnome2 |
| 20:44.45 | tethridge | gtk |
| 20:44.57 | tethridge | ? |
| 20:44.59 | michaelnovakjr | It is assumed that you have gnome2 and python2.2 development packages installed. |
| 20:45.21 | tethridge | oh well |
| 20:45.42 | tethridge | what are you using windows for anyway? :-) |
| 20:45.55 | michaelnovakjr | i'm not :)... other people are |
| 20:45.59 | tethridge | there are plenty of image viewers you can use for porn |
| 20:46.01 | michaelnovakjr | they can't open my diffs |
| 20:46.02 | tethridge | on linux |
| 20:46.06 | tethridge | :-) |
| 20:46.13 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 20:46.36 | tethridge | are you just doing a diff using the unified format? |
| 20:46.50 | michaelnovakjr | i'm basically porting Kompare to windows |
| 20:46.57 | michaelnovakjr | but making it cross-platform |
| 20:47.11 | michaelnovakjr | Kompare has some KDE stuff in it which would make it fail on windows |
| 20:47.33 | tethridge | can they not use the diff tool that comes with visual studio? |
| 20:47.41 | tethridge | I assume that they are developers too |
| 20:47.58 | michaelnovakjr | it doesn't like linux diffs |
| 20:48.09 | tethridge | what format is your diff? |
| 20:48.23 | michaelnovakjr | its generated from svn |
| 20:48.48 | tethridge | I believe that is just a diff using unified diff format |
| 20:48.56 | tethridge | according to the diff man page |
| 20:50.32 | f00f- | diff -u |
| 20:50.45 | jasta | svn diff, by default, produces unidiff. |
| 20:50.49 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 20:50.56 | michaelnovakjr | but it doesn't open propertly |
| 20:51.04 | jasta | you should work to support all the formats that diff can output, though :) |
| 20:51.15 | michaelnovakjr | that is the plan |
| 20:51.21 | tethridge | jasta, is unidiff the same as the unified diff format? |
| 20:51.26 | jasta | yes |
| 20:51.29 | michaelnovakjr | yes |
| 20:51.39 | michaelnovakjr | its been a big pain dealing with windows |
| 20:52.02 | tethridge | can I use patch to apply any diff file that uses the unified diff format? |
| 20:52.30 | michaelnovakjr | yes |
| 20:52.36 | michaelnovakjr | unified diff it understands |
| 20:52.59 | tethridge | we use clearcase at work and it can't create a single file with all of the changes |
| 20:53.11 | michaelnovakjr | ? |
| 20:53.15 | michaelnovakjr | clearcase on what? |
| 20:53.19 | tethridge | I've been using diff -ur for generating a patch for code reviews |
| 20:53.32 | tethridge | clearcase is IBM's source control system |
| 20:53.44 | tethridge | I hate it with a passion |
| 20:53.46 | michaelnovakjr | oo |
| 20:54.02 | michaelnovakjr | does clearcase output unified diffs? |
| 20:54.24 | tethridge | unfortunately, the people that get to decide what source control system we use love it and have customized the hell out of it. |
| 20:54.26 | tethridge | no |
| 20:55.22 | tethridge | they basically have modified it to give us the ability to have private views, similar to how bazaar and git allow for devs to create a bunch of branches locally |
| 20:55.39 | tethridge | the only problem is that we have to merge views all the time |
| 20:55.49 | michaelnovakjr | stupid |
| 20:55.55 | michaelnovakjr | why not just use git |
| 20:56.00 | tethridge | so you pretty much can't look at a file and go back in history and see when something has changed. |
| 20:56.05 | michaelnovakjr | it would be a hell of alot easier |
| 20:56.08 | tethridge | I know |
| 20:56.19 | michaelnovakjr | oh lets fake git instead of using it |
| 20:56.48 | tethridge | there is just too much noise. Tons of merges that make it impossible to see when the change occurred without a lot of work. |
| 20:57.18 | tethridge | plus, let's spend a assload of money on the solution. :-) |
| 20:57.22 | michaelnovakjr | ye |
| 20:57.23 | michaelnovakjr | a |
| 20:57.39 | michaelnovakjr | i have been using git a bit more and i really like it |
| 20:57.48 | michaelnovakjr | its very cool |
| 20:58.04 | michaelnovakjr | my only closed sourced scm i used was sourcesafe |
| 20:58.13 | michaelnovakjr | i will never use another :) |
| 20:58.18 | tethridge | so you say |
| 20:58.47 | tethridge | just wait until an employer offers you a large salary with great benefits |
| 20:59.05 | tethridge | the last thing you'll be thinking of is, "wonder what source control system they use?" |
| 20:59.37 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 20:59.48 | michaelnovakjr | we switched to svn :) |
| 21:00.13 | tethridge | It seems that a lot of projects are now switching to bzr or git from svn |
| 21:01.14 | michaelnovakjr | git is nice in that you don't have to have network access to gain functionalities of the repository system |
| 21:01.22 | tethridge | yeah |
| 21:01.34 | tethridge | which is why I think a lot of open source projects are switching |
| 21:01.39 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 21:01.52 | tethridge | it makes it easier for devs that don't have access to checkin too |
| 21:02.07 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 21:02.23 | michaelnovakjr | your remote repo really only has to be the public one |
| 21:02.27 | tethridge | that always was a pain trying to create new patches when you didn't have commit permission when using svn |
| 21:02.35 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 21:03.03 | michaelnovakjr | essentially each developer has their own repository. |
| 21:03.53 | michaelnovakjr | as far as i know there's no native windows git |
| 21:06.03 | tethridge | I believe that bzr should work |
| 21:06.06 | tethridge | it's just python |
| 21:06.11 | michaelnovakjr | but that's not git |
| 21:06.30 | tethridge | I prefer it because it seems to be more user friendly |
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| 21:06.42 | tethridge | basically the same feature set |
| 21:06.57 | tethridge | git is faster, but at the expense of some data |
| 21:07.13 | michaelnovakjr | true, but if your using git, it won't recognize bazaar repos |
| 21:07.33 | michaelnovakjr | it could discourage some people from using git because of the lack of support |
| 21:07.38 | f00f- | just quit and use RCS |
| 21:07.49 | tethridge | rcs, right |
| 21:08.07 | tethridge | my company used a bastardized version of rcs before we used clear case |
| 21:08.24 | tethridge | they don't make good choices when it comes to source control |
| 21:08.24 | f00f- | yeah |
| 21:08.31 | f00f- | we;re gonna have to use CC soon |
| 21:08.41 | tethridge | I feel sorry for you |
| 21:08.47 | michaelnovakjr | is rcs distributed? |
| 21:08.49 | tethridge | no |
| 21:08.59 | tethridge | cvs was built on top of rcs |
| 21:09.03 | tethridge | rcs is old |
| 21:09.08 | michaelnovakjr | damn |
| 21:09.13 | f00f- | ever used CMVC? |
| 21:09.23 | tethridge | no |
| 21:09.44 | michaelnovakjr | another ibm product? what's with the proprietary stuff? |
| 21:10.02 | f00f- | apparently very popular on mainframes for SCM |
| 21:10.20 | michaelnovakjr | its not supported anymore though? |
| 21:10.25 | tethridge | what really sucks about cc is that it uses a custom file system |
| 21:10.28 | michaelnovakjr | that was before they bought clearcase |
| 21:10.43 | tethridge | so you have to much with kernel drivers just to use it |
| 21:10.48 | tethridge | assuming you're using linux |
| 21:10.56 | f00f- | that's true |
| 21:11.28 | michaelnovakjr | i was playing around with the idea of making git run natively on windows, much like svn does |
| 21:11.50 | tethridge | bzr has lots of plugins |
| 21:11.56 | tethridge | one of them is a connector for svn |
| 21:12.09 | tethridge | so you can create a bzr repo that uses svn in the background |
| 21:12.20 | michaelnovakjr | i don't get that |
| 21:12.20 | tethridge | you use the bzr commands and it translates it to svn |
| 21:12.28 | michaelnovakjr | why not just use svn then? |
| 21:12.36 | tethridge | say you don't have commit access |
| 21:12.46 | tethridge | create a bzr repo and have all of the commits you want |
| 21:12.53 | tethridge | create branches, etc |
| 21:13.14 | tethridge | or like me, don't like svn and prefer bzr, then use bzr |
| 21:13.15 | michaelnovakjr | interesting |
| 21:13.24 | tethridge | I wish there was a clear case plugin |
| 21:13.40 | michaelnovakjr | i think svn is very easy and not difficult to use |
| 21:13.56 | michaelnovakjr | its pretty powerful for what it does |
| 21:14.01 | tethridge | there are problems with svn that bzr was designed to solve |
| 21:14.12 | michaelnovakjr | but the distributed model brings more power to the management |
| 21:14.17 | tethridge | I imagine that git solves the same problems |
| 21:14.36 | tethridge | you mean devs |
| 21:14.37 | tethridge | ? |
| 21:14.37 | michaelnovakjr | the distributed model took care of the central repository concept |
| 21:14.57 | michaelnovakjr | mercurial is a scm similar to git |
| 21:15.40 | tethridge | or bitkeeper |
| 21:15.51 | tethridge | mysql just switched from bitkeeper to bzr |
| 21:16.00 | tethridge | that's a pretty big endorsement |
| 21:16.08 | f00f- | that sux |
| 21:16.10 | michaelnovakjr | bitkeeper was the 'inspiration' behind git |
| 21:16.10 | f00f- | bitkeeper owns |
| 21:16.21 | tethridge | yep |
| 21:16.25 | f00f- | they raped BK to create git |
| 21:16.32 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 21:16.36 | tethridge | bitkeeper brought it own themselves |
| 21:16.57 | f00f- | yeah i guess LKML has a lot of discussion about that |
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| 21:17.11 | michaelnovakjr | the concept is bitkeeper but i don't know about raped |
| 21:17.12 | tethridge | they should know better than try to keep bearded linux devs from using the product the way they wanted. |
| 21:17.47 | tethridge | they will go off and create something better, if they have to, and they forced them to do that |
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| 21:25.22 | jasta | i have been getting a lot of bizarre messages lately |
| 21:25.39 | jasta | maybe its because its my birthday and everyone like feels bad or something |
| 21:25.49 | jasta | my ex gf messaged me and told me i was the shit |
| 21:26.16 | jasta | and some girl i'd classify as "it's complicated" just messaged me saying she was thinking of me as she was leaving France today |
| 21:27.02 | jasta | some girl, btw, i'd also never expected to hear from ...*EVER* again :) |
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| 21:33.56 | tethridge | jasta, quit bragging. :-) |
| 21:34.28 | tethridge | or did I read that wrong. Your ex said you were shit or were "tha" shit? |
| 21:35.11 | jasta | im not bragging, my ex is insane and i dont want to talk to her |
| 21:35.16 | jasta | and so is that other chick |
| 21:35.27 | jasta | im just reflecting on how odd that both of them should message me this week |
| 21:37.37 | tethridge | sounds like fun |
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| 21:44.27 | jasta | actually, my ex isn't really insane, she's just suffering from the small town syndrome |
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| 22:38.05 | Dougie187 | good evening everyone. |
| 22:46.25 | AttractiveApe | good evenink. |
| 22:49.37 | jasta | hehe, the example in this windows xp set up for Computer Description is: |
| 22:49.47 | jasta | "For example, you could use 'The Chavez Family Computer'" |
| 22:50.08 | f00f- | HAHA |
| 22:50.10 | jasta | Chavez? For a Seattle-based software company? Hehe. |
| 22:55.55 | romainguy_ | f00f-: check your email :p |
| 22:57.31 | jasta | man, i love when i get a brand new Windows laptop shipped in the mail and within the first minute of using it something goes horribly wrong |
| 22:57.34 | jasta | explorer just crashed |
| 23:01.52 | jasta | oh well, restart and run unattended hehe |
| 23:04.56 | f00f- | very nice romainguy_ can't wait :) |
| 23:08.43 | jasta | hmm, ? |
| 23:08.55 | duey | jasta: they are sharing pics |
| 23:11.28 | f00f- | duey: you into fencing? |
| 23:11.31 | jasta | im hoping to get the pics from my trip up tonight or tomorrow |
| 23:11.36 | jasta | anxious to show those :) |
| 23:11.47 | f00f- | oh yeah, can't wait. since you're a photog or something? :) |
| 23:12.03 | duey | f00f-: of course ;) |
| 23:12.25 | f00f- | thus duey likes duels, ok thought so |
| 23:23.15 | jasta | jams around to Minus The Bear |
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| 23:23.32 | jasta | kept listening to The Pig War when I was in the San Juans hehe. that song is about that place ;) |
| 23:23.33 | dcordes_ | hi |
| 23:23.40 | dcordes_ | is somebody aware of a simple console application with root access? |
| 23:23.56 | f00f- | dude |
| 23:24.06 | jasta | dcordes_: hmm? on Android? |
| 23:24.07 | f00f- | is Minus The Bear the type of group that played at I/O ? |
| 23:24.15 | jasta | f00f-: i dont know, but i doubt it VERY much |
| 23:24.29 | f00f- | cause they sucked, good for one time comedy, not for listening or enjoying imho |
| 23:24.49 | jasta | minus the bear isn't a "comedy" band |
| 23:25.04 | jasta | it's a bad ass rock band |
| 23:25.18 | f00f- | like metallica etc. |
| 23:25.26 | jasta | lol, no |
| 23:25.36 | dcordes_ | jasta: yep |
| 23:25.39 | dcordes_ | on android |
| 23:26.03 | jasta | it's an indie rock band, some people call the style "math rock" just because it's very elaborate, well composed music |
| 23:26.12 | dcordes_ | math rock :) |
| 23:26.17 | dcordes_ | hates math |
| 23:26.41 | jasta | the members have played in these arms are snakes, kill sadie, and botch |
| 23:26.47 | jasta | but minus the bear, i think, is nothing like that |
| 23:26.52 | f00f- | hmm k |
| 23:27.01 | dcordes_ | there is a man bear pig in southpark |
| 23:27.33 | dcordes_ | it has the legs of a human, the upper part of a bear and the left ear of a pig |
| 23:27.44 | jasta | f00f-: one of their more popular songs, if you are into popular, is The Drilling. |
| 23:27.58 | jasta | im sure you can find it on songza or hypem |
| 23:28.25 | f00f- | heh, i'm so out of date, i dont even know what those are |
| 23:28.30 | dcordes_ | rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 24.236/25.413/29.678/0.424 ms, pipe 3, ipg/ewma 37.746/25.480 ms |
| 23:28.34 | dcordes_ | oops |
| 23:28.50 | jasta | f00f-: they're robot sites that make music easy to find and stream from a web browser |
| 23:28.56 | dcordes_ | can somebody help me with my question? |
| 23:29.14 | f00f- | ah ok |
| 23:29.15 | jasta | dcordes_: can you explain it better? |
| 23:29.25 | dcordes_ | no |
| 23:29.32 | jasta | then no |
| 23:29.53 | dcordes_ | what part of the question don't you understand? |
| 23:30.07 | dcordes_ | inside the graphical user interface of the android root filesystem |
| 23:30.10 | dcordes_ | the usual one |
| 23:30.21 | jasta | dcordes_: are you asking if someone has compiled a C program interacting with stdin/stdout on the android image and kernal? |
| 23:30.23 | dcordes_ | availbale from the current sdk. is it possiblet here to have a program |
| 23:30.24 | jasta | kernel* |
| 23:30.30 | dcordes_ | which provides acces to a rootshell? |
| 23:30.54 | jasta | dcordes_: you mean can you make a terminal application which runs as root in Java on Android? |
| 23:31.08 | jasta | the short answer is yes, and Google has already made one (which is not availabel to the public) |
| 23:31.12 | jasta | you would install it into /system to give it root access |
| 23:31.17 | jasta | instead of /data |
| 23:31.46 | jasta | the long answer is no, because the terminal device is not available from Java. |
| 23:31.54 | dcordes_ | ok cool so android determines the rights of a binary by its path? |
| 23:31.57 | jasta | so the terminal will be sucky as you can imagine :) |
| 23:32.08 | dcordes_ | oh |
| 23:32.09 | dcordes_ | ok |
| 23:32.10 | jasta | dcordes_: currently, though i doubt very much that will be so forever. |
| 23:32.10 | f00f- | dcordes_: unix permissions are used to segregate apps, among other things |
| 23:32.23 | dcordes_ | well we don't need it but it would be useful |
| 23:32.31 | jasta | currently, apps installed to /system get setuid to some privileged user, probably root |
| 23:32.40 | dcordes_ | ok |
| 23:32.41 | jasta | but again, i doubt very much that is their permanent strategy |
| 23:33.26 | jasta | they would be wise to remove that ability entirely: if you need root, then you ought to know how to make it happen without their UI shell :) |
| 23:33.26 | dcordes_ | I wanted to enable poeple to set their gprs APN from their androids on kaiser/polaris but we already have a different way |
| 23:33.41 | dcordes_ | yea bootup angstrom |
| 23:33.47 | dcordes_ | or something like that |
| 23:33.48 | dcordes_ | well |
| 23:33.52 | dcordes_ | thanks for the insight guys |
| 23:33.53 | jasta | dcordes_: i recommend getting USB functioning on those devices, so that you can use adb shell |
| 23:33.57 | jasta | as the engineers themselves do |
| 23:34.04 | dcordes_ | yes that's a long term goal anyway |
| 23:34.15 | dcordes_ | also mmc |
| 23:34.16 | jasta | that said, i looked into creating a good termianl app for the kaiser |
| 23:34.39 | jasta | but stopped because i would need to create a JNI layer to access the terminal device |
| 23:34.48 | jasta | which would be lame, and more work than i wanted to put into the project |
| 23:34.53 | dcordes_ | jasta: do you have one kaiser? |
| 23:34.58 | jasta | Google's terminal is basically just an interactive shell script |
| 23:35.04 | jasta | dcordes_: I did, for a time. |
| 23:35.24 | dcordes_ | do you have other htcs? |
| 23:35.29 | jasta | no |
| 23:35.41 | *** join/#android Beryllium (n=berylliu@S01060018f8f93bda.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 23:36.57 | dcordes_ | are you going to get priviledged access to upcoming 'google' hardware? |
| 23:37.14 | jasta | am i? no, i don't think any community members are. |
| 23:37.48 | dcordes_ | I wonder if it will have a keyboard |
| 23:37.56 | dcordes_ | will it be cdma or gsm? |
| 23:38.12 | jasta | dcordes_: Lots of speculation, no official word. |
| 23:38.19 | zhobbs | my guess: gsm and keyboard |
| 23:38.32 | zhobbs | but that's just my guess |
| 23:38.32 | dcordes_ | 'they' know how to create good gossip advertisement :) |
| 23:38.33 | zhobbs | t-mobile |
| 23:38.36 | jasta | My guess is it will have a keyboard, just simply because Romain said "what soft keyboard?" confusingly. |
| 23:39.14 | dcordes_ | is romainguy one of the google's techies? |
| 23:39.55 | jasta | yeah, he's one of the UI guys |
| 23:40.11 | jasta | although he's French, so you can't deduce anything from his behaviour alone :) |
| 23:40.12 | dcordes_ | I bet google pays well |
| 23:40.28 | dcordes_ | haha wtf |
| 23:40.45 | dcordes_ | I'm from germany, can't you deduce things from my behaviour? |
| 23:40.52 | jasta | it was just a joke |
| 23:40.57 | dcordes_ | ^^ sorry |
| 23:41.23 | jasta | anyway, the Android project is kind of sucky at the moment :) |
| 23:41.24 | dcordes_ | for not getting the joke. I'm german and can't understand us irony |
| 23:41.31 | jasta | at least, it's not very interesting |
| 23:41.50 | zhobbs | dcordes_: in this case it's easy...poke fun at france any chance you get |
| 23:41.54 | zhobbs | :) |
| 23:42.00 | f00f- | french fries ftw |
| 23:42.02 | f00f- | sup hobbs |
| 23:42.04 | f00f- | done traveling? |
| 23:42.08 | zhobbs | hey f00f- |
| 23:42.11 | zhobbs | yeah, back from napa |
| 23:42.28 | f00f- | nice, got lots of wine downed? |
| 23:42.43 | zhobbs | heh, actually ended up hitting some breweries instead |
| 23:42.46 | f00f- | nice |
| 23:42.49 | f00f- | i love breweries |
| 23:42.51 | zhobbs | yeah |
| 23:43.22 | zhobbs | but would have been down to go to some vineyards, just didn't have the time |
| 23:43.34 | dcordes_ | I find android interesting because ofthe fast GUI and for having some grip (something they heard about) when I try to tell people about what I am doing with my cellphone |
| 23:43.47 | dcordes_ | I don't like it because it is merely pseudo open software |
| 23:43.53 | f00f- | yeah it's a plus dcordes_ |
| 23:43.56 | f00f- | people understand it |
| 23:43.59 | jasta | dcordes_: right, but it's not interesting for us because they privatized the SDK. only the ADC winners have access to updates. |
| 23:44.18 | dcordes_ | and especially dislike the fact of making marketing with the term open when it not really is |
| 23:44.27 | jasta | the rest of us haven't seen a new version since early Feb. and we arent likely to see one soon. |
| 23:45.06 | dcordes_ | that's what I mean by pseudo |
| 23:45.14 | dcordes_ | and it's a bit cheap doing ads with this.. |
| 23:45.44 | jasta | right, but it's not psuedo for the winners ;) |
| 23:45.53 | dcordes_ | also many people think google reinvented the wheel with android |
| 23:46.11 | dcordes_ | as if it was the first kernel that runs on a cell phone |
| 23:46.24 | jasta | well, they also did some very cool things with this |
| 23:46.26 | dcordes_ | that's my opinnion on the whole thing ;) |
| 23:46.31 | jasta | like utilizing and bolstering the OpenBinder |
| 23:48.12 | jasta | dcordes_: i'm sure it'll be interesting again at some point, when it nears reality |
| 23:48.17 | jasta | but it seems very far from that right now |
| 23:48.22 | jasta | and so i sboring again |
| 23:49.15 | f00f- | nah, just a few months :) |
| 23:49.16 | zhobbs | romainguy_: I have an activity with a lot of views...and there is a view that will show up on it every once in a while in the hierarchy, should I just have it in there and show/hide or add it / remove it via code when necessary? |
| 23:50.43 | dcordes_ | jasta: I don't think it's far from reality when I can make calls from it and go only very smoothly on my device :D |
| 23:52.02 | dcordes_ | and it's even fun to play with the ui and doesn't feel too bad since at least I have the kernel source |
| 23:53.21 | dcordes_ | if google would throw the gui sourcode know I'd say it's THE embedded os |
| 23:54.13 | zhobbs | dcordes_: they will |
| 23:54.56 | krosaen | zhobbs: for a single view, setVisibility(View.GONE) and setVisibility(View.VISIBLE) should be fine |
| 23:55.20 | zhobbs | hmm, does a view that's GONE take memory? |
| 23:55.29 | krosaen | yes |
| 23:55.30 | dcordes_ | zhobbs: somebody on this channel told me there will remain some binary blobs |
| 23:55.42 | zhobbs | dcordes_: not the ui toolkit |
| 23:55.55 | dcordes_ | but? |
| 23:56.11 | zhobbs | morrildl said everything above the kernel will be open if I recall correctly |
| 23:56.21 | jasta | dcordes_: but it is though, because you have almost none of the applications layered onto it ;) |
| 23:56.23 | krosaen | but a single icon that you show in some cases, it probably won't hurt, but if you have a larger more complicated view, you could use removeView and addView |
| 23:56.25 | dcordes_ | so since the kernel is open |
| 23:56.46 | jasta | and its not real for us developers because they are withholding all the new features and bug fixes |
| 23:57.03 | dcordes_ | did you try the on screen keyboard? |
| 23:57.03 | zhobbs | krosaen: ok |
| 23:57.07 | krosaen | it certainly wouldn't be good to have a substantial layout that is hidden and shown (like a frame layout that switches between a entire screens, in that case, probably better to use sep activities) |
| 23:57.16 | jasta | dcordes_: ? |
| 23:57.19 | zhobbs | krosaen: you an android developer? I see you're inside google :) |
| 23:57.38 | jasta | probably an intern hehe |
| 23:57.39 | krosaen | yes |
| 23:58.06 | krosaen | romain's my intern |
| 23:58.10 | krosaen | j/k :) |
| 23:58.13 | zhobbs | ok...maybe I can simplify the view |
| 23:58.15 | zhobbs | hehe |
| 23:59.59 | zhobbs | krosaen: what part you work on? |