| 00:02.11 | *** join/#android dcordes_ (n=dcordes@unaffiliated/dcordes) |
| 00:02.21 | *** join/#android herriojr (n=herriojr@65.173.101.2) |
| 00:02.46 | herriojr | hey, how can I install an application on an android image on, oh say, the kaiser |
| 00:03.07 | michaelnovakjr__ | are you running android on the kaiser? |
| 00:03.14 | herriojr | yes |
| 00:03.21 | jasta | herriojr: installing applications simply requires that you put them in /data/app, or /system/app. |
| 00:03.27 | michaelnovakjr__ | indeed |
| 00:03.32 | herriojr | i've tried, but it doesn't seem to work |
| 00:03.36 | herriojr | it doesn't show up in the menu |
| 00:03.48 | jasta | herriojr: however, you should see android-random.googlecode.com. We wrote a tool called HttpDownloader that lets you do this wirelessly with the device, once its booted. |
| 00:03.51 | michaelnovakjr__ | did you put it in /data/app ? |
| 00:03.59 | jasta | herriojr: Then you did it wrong, or the app's manifest is wrong. |
| 00:04.20 | michaelnovakjr__ | jasta, putting apps in the /system/app directory is a bit flaky |
| 00:04.23 | herriojr | I took the Snake.apk that you can download everywhere to verify that wasn't the issue |
| 00:04.28 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: is it? |
| 00:04.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | in my experience |
| 00:04.36 | dcordes_ | hi |
| 00:04.45 | michaelnovakjr__ | i put all non system apps in /data/app |
| 00:04.55 | michaelnovakjr__ | that does the trick for me :) |
| 00:04.57 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: well that's the ideal convention, but i didn't know that it caused problems otherwise |
| 00:05.15 | michaelnovakjr__ | herriojr: i recommend getting the httpdownloader |
| 00:05.26 | jasta | herriojr: well, if you have a data connection you can try a number of the apps we have provided. you could even use Glance to confirm that your apps are in /data/app :) |
| 00:05.30 | michaelnovakjr__ | and glance to verify that you are getting the contents in the right directory |
| 00:05.35 | michaelnovakjr__ | haha |
| 00:05.53 | herriojr | I have a data connection |
| 00:06.08 | herriojr | what's the link? |
| 00:06.13 | herriojr | so I can download Glance? |
| 00:06.16 | michaelnovakjr__ | http://android-random.googlecode.com |
| 00:06.31 | michaelnovakjr__ | both httpdownloader and glance are on the same project page |
| 00:06.53 | jasta | the RemoteLogcat tool you may also find useful. we certainly did. |
| 00:07.01 | michaelnovakjr__ | we are also finishing up a better SMS app that beats the current one hands down :) |
| 00:07.14 | michaelnovakjr__ | not that this says much :) |
| 00:07.25 | dcordes_ | we need to include that glance program in the kaiser images |
| 00:07.39 | dcordes_ | so people can fiddle around with it more in android |
| 00:07.40 | michaelnovakjr__ | and Messages dcordes_ |
| 00:08.05 | dcordes_ | let's see if herriojr can get it working first |
| 00:08.11 | michaelnovakjr__ | http://code.google.com/p/android-random/wiki/Messages , dcordes_ |
| 00:08.13 | jasta | dcordes_: the SMS app too, assuming you have a working radio. |
| 00:08.16 | dcordes_ | michaelnovakjr__: do you have an image for the vogue which already has those included? |
| 00:08.32 | jasta | dcordes_: we use HttpDownloader to get/update devices, mostly. |
| 00:08.42 | jasta | err, get/update APKs on devices :) |
| 00:08.58 | michaelnovakjr__ | jasta, i was thinking of simplifying that too |
| 00:09.04 | dcordes_ | jasta: no sms doesn't work on the kaiser. we use the same reverse engineered ril phone application as you have on the vogue. since cdma and gsm sms is different, this doesn't work for kaiser. |
| 00:09.10 | michaelnovakjr__ | just make a list of apps to install so you don't need to know the path |
| 00:09.25 | michaelnovakjr__ | ah |
| 00:09.28 | michaelnovakjr__ | that sucks |
| 00:09.31 | jasta | dcordes_: what does work on the kaiser? |
| 00:09.54 | dcordes_ | git.linuxtogo.org/~lgorris/kaiser-bootkit |
| 00:10.17 | dcordes_ | http://linuxtogo.org/~lgorris/kaiser-bootkit/README.txt |
| 00:10.22 | jasta | reading already |
| 00:11.40 | dcordes_ | herriojr: maybe that http downloader program can help you installing the app? |
| 00:12.17 | michaelnovakjr__ | so the data image is different between the vogue and the kaiser? |
| 00:12.41 | michaelnovakjr__ | or is it just the system image? |
| 00:12.44 | herriojr | yeah, I'm checking...using the browser for too long seemed to crash the phone |
| 00:13.48 | jasta | dcordes_: the really powerful piece that the Vogue has working now is SD support. that gives us a persistent storage medium. |
| 00:13.56 | jasta | so data.img and system.img are hosted there |
| 00:14.18 | jasta | i see here the readme says this support is still unstable. is that true currently? |
| 00:14.27 | dcordes_ | yes |
| 00:15.07 | jasta | so i have a question about both the vogue and kaiser... |
| 00:15.28 | michaelnovakjr__ | jasta, will the message be squished in the conversation view with the date/time to the right? |
| 00:15.32 | jasta | how on earth does the data radio work? is this because it's a serial device and the code written by google will happily dial /dev/ttyS0? |
| 00:15.56 | jasta | and it just works by some divine coincidence that the dialer codes used by google work with this radio device? |
| 00:16.08 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: yes. |
| 00:16.43 | michaelnovakjr__ | i was trying to give the message some room, i originally had it designed like the main view |
| 00:16.55 | michaelnovakjr__ | and the text wrapped a little weird |
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| 00:18.50 | jasta | oh i see they have been a little more explicit about getting GRPS up |
| 00:20.38 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: i bet the carriers are going to hate that they now need to secure their networks against all these goofy hacked devices sending bogus nonsense :) |
| 00:20.51 | herriojr | lol |
| 00:20.51 | jasta | like SMS messages which are very badly formed |
| 00:20.52 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 00:21.04 | michaelnovakjr__ | are they badly formed? |
| 00:21.09 | jasta | or dialing the radio wrong frequently |
| 00:21.22 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: well when the developer's testing/working on it, yes. |
| 00:21.33 | jasta | i'm sure martin sent quite a few assbackwards messages trying to get it to work right |
| 00:22.15 | michaelnovakjr__ | true :) |
| 00:22.24 | michaelnovakjr__ | it works great for me :) |
| 00:22.25 | AttractiveApe | jasta: what do you mean? Nokia's are on their networks all the time. |
| 00:22.31 | AttractiveApe | Hah, see what I did there? ;) |
| 00:22.39 | jasta | lol |
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| 00:25.16 | michaelnovakjr__ | guess the kaiser has issues huh? |
| 00:27.49 | jasta | seems to :) |
| 00:27.55 | jasta | but so does the vogue |
| 00:28.11 | michaelnovakjr__ | doesn't seem as bad as the vogue |
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| 00:31.11 | dcordes_ | jasta: sorry I didn't see your question, herriojr told me you were asking something. it's easy, google's evaluation hardware use the msm7500A platform, vogue is msm7500 |
| 00:31.23 | dcordes_ | so the whole phone stuff is very similar |
| 00:32.21 | michaelnovakjr__ | dcordes_: does the kaiser make calls? |
| 00:32.32 | dcordes_ | was just about to come to that point |
| 00:32.34 | dcordes_ | kaiser has msm7200 |
| 00:32.55 | dcordes_ | the phone stuff of the arm9 side interfacing with arm11 is very similar among 7200/7500 |
| 00:33.36 | dcordes_ | it's just that the msm7200 chip is gsm, not cdma. the AT commands for phone calls are the same here |
| 00:33.45 | dcordes_ | but not sms and stuff so that doesn't work |
| 00:34.05 | michaelnovakjr__ | hm, so is it possible to get it working? |
| 00:34.07 | dcordes_ | so we can make phone calls. please don't ask why we can use 3g. |
| 00:34.13 | michaelnovakjr__ | haha |
| 00:34.24 | dcordes_ | michaelnovakjr__: of course. we even have the (rewritten) source |
| 00:34.44 | michaelnovakjr__ | neat |
| 00:34.53 | michaelnovakjr__ | i have a vogue and the sms is great |
| 00:34.55 | jasta | dcordes_: my question was about the GPRS connection. |
| 00:35.13 | dcordes_ | michaelnovakjr__: yea because the person who rewrote the phone application, wrote it for that device |
| 00:35.21 | jasta | it seems like it's just talking to a serial device, and the AT commands just happen to magically be right in the google android system-level code? |
| 00:35.28 | dcordes_ | person=dzo, you know him |
| 00:35.49 | michaelnovakjr__ | i use my sms app dcordes_ |
| 00:35.54 | dcordes_ | jasta: ask dzo about it |
| 00:36.05 | dcordes_ | we have a serial interface for AT communication |
| 00:36.14 | jasta | dcordes_: btw, i noticed some time ago that the Binder driver included with dzo's kernel is wrong. |
| 00:36.19 | dcordes_ | and a network device which handles the net data |
| 00:36.21 | michaelnovakjr__ | dcordes_: you also have wifi as well right? |
| 00:36.22 | jasta | it uses protocol version 6, where the userland uses version 5. |
| 00:36.30 | jasta | I fixed this in the version I gave to michaelnovakjr__ and others, but dzo has yet to fix it I believe. |
| 00:36.32 | dcordes_ | jasta: I don't know about any binder stuff |
| 00:36.39 | dcordes_ | michaelnovakjr__: not yet |
| 00:36.51 | jasta | It hasn't seemed to impact system stability though. |
| 00:36.52 | michaelnovakjr__ | but the kaiser has wifi in it right? |
| 00:36.55 | dcordes_ | right |
| 00:37.10 | jasta | the kaiser would be a much more attractive device to get working, as it has a full keyboard. |
| 00:37.24 | dcordes_ | it should be rather trivial because we have the msm_sdcc working, but nobody really looked in it yet I think |
| 00:37.48 | jasta | dcordes_: i assume the keybaord does work? |
| 00:38.51 | dcordes_ | yes it does |
| 00:39.04 | dcordes_ | one of the first things we got on the kaiser |
| 00:39.05 | jasta | dcordes_: what carrier do you use this on? |
| 00:39.11 | dcordes_ | vodafone germany |
| 00:39.27 | jasta | dcordes_: anyone using it on AT&T? |
| 00:39.37 | jasta | i'm curious about this, because i have AT&T. |
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| 00:39.44 | jasta | and i could just slip my SIM card in for testing |
| 00:39.52 | dcordes_ | of course this works with every provider |
| 00:40.11 | jasta | dcordes_: well, don't you require a dialed PPP connection, with a username/password like the vogue does? |
| 00:40.34 | dcordes_ | oh right, I'm using angstrom, not android. |
| 00:40.41 | dcordes_ | I just specify the APN there |
| 00:40.50 | dcordes_ | inside the running system |
| 00:40.50 | jasta | what's angstrom? |
| 00:41.17 | dcordes_ | a linux distribution |
| 00:41.24 | jasta | ahh |
| 00:41.29 | dcordes_ | free and open source one |
| 00:41.50 | jasta | ponders getting a kaiser instead of a vogue for testing |
| 00:41.53 | dcordes_ | that's what makes it more attractive for hardware developers. you can actually test stuff |
| 00:41.58 | dcordes_ | unlike in android |
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| 00:42.20 | jasta | dcordes_: i was contemplating building a terminal app on android :) |
| 00:42.26 | jasta | it would not be so hard to do, really. |
| 00:43.09 | dcordes_ | in the long term, I'd suggest a kaiser. if you are looking to get a tseting device for your android applications quickly, go for a vogue |
| 00:43.27 | jasta | dcordes_: well, my application likely doesn't run on either. |
| 00:43.35 | jasta | for some reason it hangs, and i wanted to get a device in order to figure it out :) |
| 00:43.56 | jasta | i require too much variation/testing of ideas to do it by proxy with one of the guys in here who has a device. |
| 00:44.02 | dcordes_ | we (the kaiser guys) have nobody working on android. |
| 00:44.02 | jasta | i've played with a vogue several times, but don't own one personally |
| 00:44.32 | dcordes_ | the whole net and phone thing in android is more stable on vogue |
| 00:44.35 | jasta | how does it all work? somebody adapted dzo's work, or is it just compatible? |
| 00:44.49 | jasta | dcordes_: yeah, i assumed as much. |
| 00:46.47 | jasta | i've read through a lot of his patches, but have not directly contributed as of yet. |
| 00:46.59 | dcordes_ | jasta: it is just compatible. I explained it above in the gsm vs cdma part. |
| 00:48.36 | jasta | i meant the board itself and touchscreen driver. |
| 00:48.44 | jasta | all the GPIOs... |
| 00:48.58 | dcordes_ | see htc-msm git |
| 00:49.09 | jasta | ok |
| 00:49.21 | dcordes_ | it's referred to in README.txt |
| 00:52.39 | jasta | this is all very interesting stuff. i predict this type of behaviour to absolutely explode once we get sources to Android and can compile it for other targets |
| 00:57.56 | michaelnovakjr__ | jasta, contact picker works :) |
| 00:58.50 | jasta | son of a bitch. i never knew Message had the sendToTarget() method |
| 00:59.12 | jasta | has written Message msg = handler.obtainMessage(...); handler.sendMessage(msg); many times :) |
| 00:59.23 | jasta | would be nice to have written handler.obtainMessage(...).sendToTarget() |
| 00:59.32 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 01:07.08 | jasta | i had like 70% of this solitaire app already written way back in December last year :) |
| 01:07.12 | jasta | i quit working on it to get started on Five. |
| 01:07.20 | jasta | man, weird to think back that far. |
| 01:07.23 | michaelnovakjr__ | neat :) |
| 01:07.31 | michaelnovakjr__ | that was during m3 days though right? |
| 01:07.41 | jasta | back before i painstakingly produced a 20k loc code base in a language i didn't even know at the time |
| 01:07.57 | jasta | yeah, i'm updating the code. so far, very little had to be updated since there was nothing really substantial there. |
| 01:08.07 | jasta | onlayout's signature changed, that's about all i had to update |
| 01:08.23 | jasta | the way i drew the cards back then was totally assbackwadrs hehe |
| 01:08.28 | jasta | it makes me laugh looking at that part of this code |
| 01:08.38 | jasta | i used image files for each card |
| 01:08.44 | jasta | instead of just using image files for the suit and drawing it all myself |
| 01:08.55 | jasta | and maybe just caching the drawables i create |
| 01:10.38 | michaelnovakjr__ | if i open up the initrd file on martin's stuff, how can i zip that back up again? |
| 01:12.25 | jasta | sudo find . | cpio -H newc -o | gzip > ../initrd.gz |
| 01:13.08 | jasta | the sudo is necessary because when you extracted it you needed to preserve permissions that only root would be bale to access |
| 01:13.11 | jasta | such as the /dev entries. |
| 01:13.36 | jasta | this is because you aren't really mounting th eimage, you're actually using your normal filesystem to hold/preserve permissions of the ramdisk. |
| 01:14.05 | jasta | i unpacked i unpacked it with gunzip -c ... | cpio -id |
| 01:14.06 | jasta | as root as well |
| 01:14.18 | michaelnovakjr__ | cool |
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| 01:15.47 | jasta | michaelnovakjr__: i'll have my solitaire app done (or at least working) by the weekend i bet |
| 01:15.55 | jasta | just basically updating and finishing it |
| 01:16.06 | michaelnovakjr__ | nice |
| 01:16.15 | jasta | i'm enjoying that you and i are producing quite a substantial amount of open source apps :) |
| 01:16.27 | jasta | hopefully our good example rubs off ;) |
| 01:16.31 | michaelnovakjr__ | yea, its been a pleasant development |
| 01:16.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | experience |
| 01:16.37 | gambler | do you guys take requests? :p |
| 01:16.46 | jasta | gambler: don't you know anything about open source? |
| 01:17.07 | gambler | jasta, no im more a free sw person :p |
| 01:17.13 | jasta | we will sneer and harrass you until you attempt something interesting, but you attempt it poorly. |
| 01:17.22 | jasta | then we will take over and finish it out of frustration. |
| 01:17.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | gambler: are you a developer? |
| 01:17.49 | jasta | but until you make an effort, we will just sneer and harrass, as all good open source developers should :) |
| 01:18.12 | gambler | michaelnovakjr, i know how to write sw if thats what you mean |
| 01:18.55 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 01:19.05 | michaelnovakjr__ | so you don't classify yourself as a developer i take it? |
| 01:20.07 | gambler | michaelnovakjr, correct. |
| 01:20.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | so since you should request, what app are you about to develop? |
| 01:21.02 | gambler | im sort of a wandering philosopher skeptic |
| 01:21.18 | gambler | me? im working on some crypto utilities |
| 01:21.37 | gambler | among other things |
| 01:24.18 | dcordes_ | jasta: what do you mean other targets? we have the rilphone source |
| 01:26.23 | jasta | dcordes_: I mean for the entire stack. Other phones, specifically ones with processors implementing different bytecodes. |
| 01:26.29 | jasta | For example, the Neo FreeRunner. |
| 01:27.44 | dcordes_ | oh |
| 01:27.51 | dcordes_ | right |
| 01:32.44 | jasta | later, dinner |
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| 02:09.52 | michaelnovakjr__ | Messages is up for download |
| 02:10.00 | michaelnovakjr__ | http://code.google.com/p/android-random |
| 02:11.13 | yakischloba | sweet! |
| 02:13.48 | michaelnovakjr__ | :)] |
| 02:13.55 | yakischloba | Is it possible that onResume() of the activity that is being resumed is called before the onPause() of the finishing activity is finished? |
| 02:14.42 | michaelnovakjr__ | i believe so |
| 02:14.46 | michaelnovakjr__ | you can see from the logcat |
| 02:14.55 | michaelnovakjr__ | the resuming entry and the removing entry |
| 02:15.13 | michaelnovakjr__ | it looks that way to me :) |
| 02:15.14 | yakischloba | The removing should be coming before the resuming, correct? |
| 02:15.26 | michaelnovakjr__ | not in the case i see |
| 02:16.43 | michaelnovakjr__ | i would think that is desired seeing you can share data between activities |
| 02:18.00 | yakischloba | I have something the onResume of one activity that ensures some data is present. If it is not, it opens the activity to fill the data in. From a clean wiped emulator, the first time I fill in the data and finish the activity, it immediately kicks me back to that activity |
| 02:18.47 | michaelnovakjr__ | are you printing out the data to make sure the activity is acting properly? |
| 02:19.27 | yakischloba | Printing it out where |
| 02:19.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | Log |
| 02:19.40 | yakischloba | no. how do I do that |
| 02:19.49 | michaelnovakjr__ | import android.util.Log; |
| 02:20.08 | yakischloba | k |
| 02:20.10 | michaelnovakjr__ | then call Log.d( "your app name", "data in the form of a string to print out." ); |
| 02:20.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | then run adb logcat in a new window so you trace your log output |
| 02:23.41 | michaelnovakjr__ | what exactly are you doing? |
| 02:25.29 | yakischloba | I'm making sure that a user has some critical information filled out before they can proceed to use the rest of the application. As a placeholder right now, I'm just making sure that the activity to fill out the data opens up from the main activity, calling the thing that checks it from both onCreate and onResume |
| 02:25.52 | yakischloba | The activity to fill out the information persists information to both the Preferences, and SQlite |
| 02:26.19 | yakischloba | so I'm suspecting that the main activity's onResume is checking before the information has been saved |
| 02:27.22 | michaelnovakjr__ | and you are calling onPause if they dont? |
| 02:27.52 | michaelnovakjr__ | are you using setData or putExtra? |
| 02:28.07 | yakischloba | neither? |
| 02:28.21 | michaelnovakjr__ | if you pastebin some code i can help you out |
| 02:29.08 | yakischloba | I tried to create a little abstraction for myself, so I can use easy methods to set/get data in both the preferences and this particular database table |
| 02:29.12 | yakischloba | give me a few mins, i'll see if I can figure it out |
| 02:29.41 | michaelnovakjr__ | ok |
| 02:29.42 | yakischloba | I'm pretty reserved about posting my code at this time, as I don't have time for hours of lecturing about everything I'm doing wrong :) |
| 02:29.54 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) i don't lecture |
| 02:30.17 | yakischloba | heh |
| 02:30.34 | michaelnovakjr__ | i'm not a fan of it |
| 02:33.25 | yakischloba | Typically I'm happy to hear everyone out, but right now I'm learning so much just as I'm going that any more is too much ;) |
| 02:36.05 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
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| 02:49.58 | yakischloba | Haha. I knew it was something dumb. I actually had a more complicated issue but it was the stupid thing that held me up (of course) |
| 02:50.44 | michaelnovakjr__ | it happens :) |
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| 04:09.03 | yakischloba | what do I have to do to make my DatePicker 'active?' i click around and nothing happens |
| 04:15.36 | yakischloba | Is only the Dialog version of it interactive? |
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| 04:42.15 | yakischloba | Oh. It only responds to direction input. lame. |
| 04:42.47 | yakischloba | a shame theres no way to select the year easily either |
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| 04:56.27 | yakischloba | Has anyone else made a good date widget? specifically for inputting birthdate? |
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| 04:59.00 | yakischloba | dead tonight |
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| 06:01.16 | jasta | yawn |
| 06:03.10 | michaelnovakjr__ | howdy |
| 06:03.48 | jasta | coding... ;) |
| 06:03.54 | jasta | it's good to be back into it. |
| 06:04.02 | jasta | i'm pleased to find that my inspiration has returned. |
| 06:04.09 | michaelnovakjr__ | taking a bit of a break.... i posted my messages apk |
| 06:04.16 | michaelnovakjr__ | getting ready to write a game |
| 06:04.21 | jasta | very nice |
| 06:04.32 | jasta | i'm writing my solitaire engine right now :) |
| 06:04.43 | michaelnovakjr__ | something simple.... i haven't messed with opengl on android yet |
| 06:04.58 | jasta | sigh, i forgot watch expressions is broken :( |
| 06:06.05 | michaelnovakjr__ | ah the fun of an outdated sdk :) |
| 06:06.24 | jasta | hehe, a lot of this old code is so funny to look at |
| 06:06.30 | jasta | how badly i understood all this stuff hehe |
| 06:06.36 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 06:06.45 | michaelnovakjr__ | i'll be back tomorrow, going to relax a little bit |
| 06:06.58 | michaelnovakjr__ | enjoy :) |
| 06:07.51 | jasta | later :) |
| 06:08.01 | jasta | what timezone are you in? |
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| 08:12.02 | alex2308 | morning |
| 08:12.31 | Darkeye11547 | Morning. |
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| 13:11.53 | michaelnovakjr | morning |
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| 14:18.02 | zhobbs_ | this is kinda cool: |
| 14:18.03 | zhobbs_ | http://androidguys.com/2008/08/06/scripting-your-android-device/ |
| 14:18.39 | zhobbs_ | might be a good way to create a plugin architecture |
| 14:26.46 | michaelnovakjr | is that real? |
| 14:30.06 | zhobbs_ | looks pretty real |
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| 14:35.17 | jasta | zhobbs_: why would you want to use that to make a plugin architecture? |
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| 14:35.32 | jasta | Dalvik allegedly will be able to dynamically load dex files, which would be a much better way to implement a traditional plugin architecture with Java |
| 14:35.54 | michaelnovakjr | for sure |
| 14:36.59 | zhobbs_ | "allegedly will be able to" vs actually works in m5 |
| 14:39.20 | tomgibara | I'm disappointed that there's no access to the JS Engine in Webkit w/o instantiating a WebView. |
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| 14:39.47 | tomgibara | I would have been an excellent addition to support application scripting. |
| 14:40.22 | jasta | zhobbs_: Well, I believe that claim simply on the basis that it would be trivial to support. |
| 14:41.44 | tomgibara | jasta: I don't see that it's quite that trivial |
| 14:43.01 | tomgibara | though most of the capability to launch dex files must be present to simply load apps |
| 14:43.48 | alex2308 | didnt read the whole article, but does it depend on netbeans running? |
| 14:43.51 | alex2308 | i mean eclipse |
| 14:43.57 | alex2308 | uh ugly mistake |
| 14:44.14 | jasta | tomgibara: That is what makes it trivial. Loading a dex file from some arbitrary stream is a necessity for Dalvik to even work. |
| 14:44.46 | tomgibara | jasta: It's not necessarily trivial within the context of an executing application though is it. |
| 14:44.55 | jasta | tomgibara: It is, certainly. |
| 14:45.17 | tomgibara | jasta: :) You certainty amuses me |
| 14:45.42 | tomgibara | jasta: First thing that comes to mind: what do you do with the constant pools? |
| 14:45.47 | jasta | Dalvik would just need a new [small] set of instructions that allow whatever code path is taken to initially load classes and launch an application to be available to compiled dex code. |
| 14:45.50 | tomgibara | jasta: Strings in particular? |
| 14:46.18 | jasta | tomgibara: You treat them just as you treat any other class which must be initialized at runtime, and potentially destroyed later. |
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| 14:46.59 | jasta | Dalvik, as any sensible VM would, does not load every class the system has when your application starts. |
| 14:47.03 | tomgibara | jasta: You are lamentably rash - String constants are privileged in Java. |
| 14:47.25 | tomgibara | jasta: Privileged by being automatically interned. |
| 14:48.18 | jasta | tomgibara: That is irrelevant, complexity introduced only by your inability to reason how a reasonable VM must work. |
| 14:49.00 | jasta | This VM in particular was implemented to necessitate loading classes dynamically, which it does. It simply has no instruction set for doing that in compiled dex files. |
| 14:49.45 | jasta | Or if it does have those instructions, they are buggy or haven't been enabled yet by the class to dex translation. |
| 14:50.00 | tomgibara | jasta: Haha... I point out a complexity in something that you immediately assume to be trivial, and you say I'm unable to reason about VMs |
| 14:50.48 | jasta | tomgibara: If you wish to explain why you believe this to be a problem, you're more than welcome. |
| 14:51.08 | jasta | I have explained why I believe it not to be, after all. |
| 14:51.13 | tomgibara | jasta: You say this VM in particular was implemented to necessitate loading classes dynamically - why? |
| 14:51.14 | muthu | what's the class loader model in dalvik? |
| 14:51.37 | tomgibara | muthu: A damn sight simpler than the one in Java I hope. |
| 14:51.38 | jasta | tomgibara: Because I know that to be true from obversation. Classes load dynamically. |
| 14:51.56 | michaelnovakjr | they load when necessary |
| 14:52.03 | muthu | they said they have optimized the dalvik vm |
| 14:52.08 | michaelnovakjr | its obvious from the log output of a starting apk |
| 14:52.12 | tomgibara | jasta: That is different from having two independent sources of classes |
| 14:52.33 | jasta | tomgibara: The source of the class is simply a software architecture problem, which is a simple one to solve at that. |
| 14:52.34 | tomgibara | Optimization in this context might include assuming there was one dex file only |
| 14:52.53 | tomgibara | jasta: Irrelevant |
| 14:53.32 | tomgibara | jasta: I'm pointing out the additional complexity associated with introducing new classes and constants into an established address space. |
| 14:53.45 | jasta | tomgibara: That is the exact argument I would give. If the source of the class data (dex file, in particular) is irrelevant, then loading classes dynamically would just be simply fitting it into the existing design. |
| 14:53.50 | tomgibara | jasta: My string constant issue being just one simple possible example. |
| 14:53.53 | michaelnovakjr | i don't think its all that complex tomgibara |
| 14:53.59 | jasta | tomgibara: And I'm telling you that Dalvik already loads classes dynamically. |
| 14:54.07 | jasta | This is plain to see from observation alone. |
| 14:54.24 | tomgibara | Again, I don't dispute it defers class resolution |
| 14:54.24 | jasta | And because of this, it would be trivial to extend it to do this from an arbitrary dex stream instead of one elsewhere on the system. |
| 14:54.25 | michaelnovakjr | just open up logcat :) |
| 14:55.46 | tomgibara | I have 10 yrs of Java development experience had once reported a cross ClassLoader security bug that took Sun over a year to fix. |
| 14:55.59 | jasta | I just googled this and it looks like it's just a stupid bug. Dalvik already does support this, you just have to hack around it. |
| 14:56.21 | jasta | namely, the classes.dex must be inside a jar file. I jar'd up a |
| 14:56.22 | jasta | classes.dex file and fed it into the code for the osgi class loader |
| 14:56.22 | jasta | (see http://blog.luminis.nl/luminis/entry/osgi_on_google_android_using |
| 14:56.22 | jasta | ) and all was happy. |
| 14:56.31 | jasta | this was a quote from a groups message |
| 14:56.51 | tomgibara | Let me explain clearly: defering the resolution of classes is not necessarily the same thing as being able to accomodate all of the information in a dex file. |
| 14:57.23 | tomgibara | My contention is that jasta said it is trivial, when there is no evidence to me that supports the assertion. |
| 14:58.00 | jasta | Perhaps not, but I just demonstrated that this functionality already exists. |
| 14:58.15 | tomgibara | I personally expect it to be straightforward because the application dex is probably loaded into a context that supports the system dex file already. |
| 14:58.53 | tomgibara | This is a completely different matter than infering that because classes are lazily resolved, its easy to load a new dex file |
| 14:59.16 | jasta | tomgibara: I fail to see why. Would you mind explaining some of those complexities? |
| 15:00.05 | tomgibara | jasta: I can't because I don't know anything about the Dalvik VM - but I know that the complexities in Hotspot seem monsterous to me |
| 15:00.21 | jasta | Such as? |
| 15:01.49 | tomgibara | Hotspot can identify when there is only one implementation of a given interface and then optimize calls to the interface based on assuming that it must be the given class. When a new class is loaded into the VM it 'backs out' the optimization, possibly decompiling JITed code before recompiling it |
| 15:02.21 | tomgibara | Similarly it will inline calls to a method that is not fil |
| 15:02.26 | tomgibara | final |
| 15:02.26 | jasta | Well, Dalvik doesn't use JIT code, so that complexity is gone. |
| 15:03.07 | tomgibara | I know - I said I could only refer to Hotspot because i don't know much about Dalvik |
| 15:03.29 | jasta | Backing out of optimizations is certainly not something I considered initially, however it would seem reckless of Google to create optimizations taht would be difficult to back out of when they attempt to support a 1.0 feature. |
| 15:03.34 | tomgibara | But I repeat again - your belief that there's no complexity because you can't see it is laughable. It may be true, or it may be hidden. |
| 15:04.24 | michaelnovakjr | i still wouldn't call it a complexity |
| 15:04.51 | jasta | tomgibara: Well, I actually meant to imply that I don't know about the complexity you were referring to, hence I eventually just asked because you would not otherwise explain it. |
| 15:05.14 | jasta | Although I remain unconvinced that it would be truly nightmarish to support this functionality, given deferred class resolution. |
| 15:05.42 | jasta | Nightmarish, perhaps, if you never saw the feature coming and designed an entire VM assuming it would not be possible. But then shame on you, right? :) |
| 15:05.46 | tomgibara | I don't say it's nightmarish, but I would be suprised if it was wholy trivial either. |
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| 15:06.40 | jasta | tomgibara: Well, you mentioned a bug that took Sun over a year to fix. I assumed you meant that as an example of a "nightmare" ;) |
| 15:07.25 | tomgibara | No, just a dumb mistake that allowed class domains to leak references - inducing a cross domain browser bug. |
| 15:07.33 | jasta | And actually, I think in the case of optimizations here that it only makes sense to consider the optimizations non-trivial, not the dynamic class loading. |
| 15:10.36 | michaelnovakjr | whoa jasta, i forgot how quick it is to use svn when its not Google code servers :) |
| 15:10.38 | jasta | Optimizations that must make arbitrary assumptions about the pattern of a program, and then must back out of them when those assumptions are shown to be false, would be complex in general. |
| 15:10.51 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: lol |
| 15:10.58 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: hey, i committed some code last night for my Solitaire game. |
| 15:11.08 | jasta | it does fire up and draw, poorly. no game logic eyt, though. |
| 15:11.09 | michaelnovakjr | i saw that this morning |
| 15:11.19 | michaelnovakjr | it built cleanly for me |
| 15:11.31 | michaelnovakjr | btw, i'm on the east coast :) |
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| 15:38.22 | michaelnovakjr | AttractiveApe: the Messages app is up on android-random |
| 15:38.45 | AttractiveApe | Oh really! |
| 15:38.56 | AttractiveApe | Is it awesome? |
| 15:47.05 | michaelnovakjr | i would hope so AttractiveApe :) |
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| 15:50.32 | michaelnovakjr | AttractiveApe: i would at least expect you to find it better than the current SMS app there |
| 15:52.58 | AttractiveApe | :p k |
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| 16:37.19 | jasta | yawn |
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| 16:39.40 | michaelnovakjr | howdy |
| 16:40.38 | yakischloba | good morning |
| 16:41.36 | michaelnovakjr | how's it going? |
| 16:42.27 | Hai-Fai | evening |
| 16:45.00 | michaelnovakjr | how's it going? |
| 16:45.01 | jasta | eats some yogurt for breakfast |
| 16:45.28 | jasta | yogurt is so carzy to me |
| 16:45.59 | michaelnovakjr | yea? |
| 16:46.19 | jasta | what other food do you eat that's still alive while you're eating it? |
| 16:46.54 | yakischloba | I'm pretty sure we carry a bunch of weird stuff that is still alive |
| 16:47.11 | jasta | i'm sure we do carry it, but i don't think we eat it regularly |
| 16:47.13 | SanMehat | morning |
| 16:47.14 | jasta | do we? |
| 16:47.33 | jasta | i mean like isn't that the point of cooking raw meats well? so you definitely aren't eating anything alive? |
| 16:47.57 | jasta | i could be wrong, i don't know that much about food science |
| 16:48.04 | yakischloba | I meant my company carries stuff. |
| 16:48.07 | jasta | but it's weird to me to think about eating an active culture |
| 16:48.36 | yakischloba | "According to the currently adopted definition by FAO/WHO, probiotics are: ‘Live microorganisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefit on the host’." |
| 16:48.36 | jasta | and that instead of being dangerous, it's good for you |
| 16:48.36 | zhobbs_ | beer is often alive |
| 16:48.37 | tomgibara | jasta: blue cheese? |
| 16:49.05 | michaelnovakjr | that HTC diamond looks like a slick phone |
| 16:49.15 | yakischloba | yeah. many cheeses I believe. |
| 16:49.40 | jasta | cheeses in the US are pasteurized by law. |
| 16:50.39 | tomgibara | jasta: That's a bit sad. |
| 16:50.41 | jasta | but i guess some stuff survived pasteurization, but not much. i'm sure it's nothing like yogurt when it's done though. |
| 16:51.16 | yakischloba | even imported cheese?.. |
| 16:51.18 | jasta | canned and bottled beer in the US is also pasteurized, so again, ... |
| 16:51.31 | jasta | yakischloba: i believe in order for it to be imported it must have been pasteurized. beer included. |
| 16:51.46 | jasta | guinness, for example, is made differently when exported to the US than other parts of the world. |
| 16:52.19 | jasta | i believe that is because of pasteurization |
| 16:54.24 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: here's hoping it's similar to the android device they're launching ;) |
| 16:55.01 | michaelnovakjr | interesting you bring that up because the layout looks a lot like the emulator when closed |
| 16:55.02 | yakischloba | hmm. I was pretty sure you could have unpasteurized cheese as long as it was aged a certain amount or something |
| 16:55.10 | michaelnovakjr | that is the button icons below the screen :) |
| 16:55.11 | Hai-Fai | best bet of android out on august? |
| 16:55.21 | Hai-Fai | phone |
| 16:55.24 | michaelnovakjr | Hai-Fai: huh? |
| 16:55.33 | yakischloba | Don't hold your breath |
| 16:55.36 | jasta | Hai-Fai: lol, no ;) |
| 16:55.43 | Hai-Fai | well, it was someone's guess that first phones might be out on august |
| 16:56.03 | michaelnovakjr | apparently someone who doesn't come around much :) |
| 16:56.10 | jasta | Hai-Fai: here's a strategy. assume it will be launched on Jan 1st, 2009, then enjoy your pleasant surprise when it's any bit earlier. |
| 16:56.17 | Hai-Fai | and it might have been 1 year ago :D |
| 16:56.19 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 16:56.19 | jasta | and only mild frustration when it really launches in February. |
| 16:57.03 | jasta | Hai-Fai: for your reading pleasure: http://gizmodo.com/5032966/htcs-android-phones-still-on-track-for-q4-2008 |
| 16:57.08 | Hai-Fai | nah, I just wish it would be my great christmas present =) |
| 16:57.37 | Hai-Fai | but at least new sdk would be great |
| 16:58.03 | jasta | yes well, we're getting encouraging news that the SDK should be out much before phones, as they plan to release the SDK when they ship the final versions for testing/certification/etc |
| 16:58.18 | jasta | but i believe we're still some ways off from that. |
| 16:58.32 | michaelnovakjr | indeed |
| 16:58.44 | jasta | a month or more would not surprise me, for example. |
| 16:58.53 | Hai-Fai | yep, it's sad |
| 16:59.00 | romainguy_ | stop speculating guys :) |
| 16:59.09 | romainguy_ | you're only hurting yourself |
| 16:59.13 | jasta | Hai-Fai: well, it's sad and then it's also entirely expected, so... |
| 17:00.05 | jasta | raises an eyebrow |
| 17:00.13 | jasta | ...that article i just posted... |
| 17:00.27 | jasta | "By Jason Chen"? |
| 17:00.33 | romainguy_ | no it's another Jason Chen |
| 17:00.40 | jasta | i should hope so!!! |
| 17:00.43 | yakischloba | inconvenient hah |
| 17:00.43 | romainguy_ | he (gizmodo's) said so when Android came out |
| 17:03.00 | jasta | is enjoying designing a touch screen interface for a solitaire game |
| 17:03.21 | jasta | i plan to support number pads, touch screen, and dpad... |
| 17:03.27 | jasta | and multiple layouts, yay |
| 17:03.47 | romainguy_ | jasta: it's still a boring game :)) |
| 17:03.54 | jasta | Freecell isn't boring |
| 17:03.58 | jasta | you've just never played it obviously |
| 17:04.01 | romainguy_ | it is too |
| 17:04.15 | yakischloba | Hey has anyone made another widget for date input? I found the DatePicker highly unsuitable for entering birth dates |
| 17:04.20 | romainguy_ | you really abuse that word, "obviously" |
| 17:04.34 | romainguy_ | yakischloba: next SDK has a much better one |
| 17:04.40 | yakischloba | I hate it when mom and dad fight. |
| 17:04.55 | yakischloba | romainguy_: that would work well for birth dates? |
| 17:05.01 | romainguy_ | yes |
| 17:05.04 | yakischloba | ok |
| 17:05.10 | yakischloba | I'll hold off on creating my own then -_- |
| 17:05.39 | jasta | romainguy_: are you sure, not Klondike? |
| 17:05.47 | jasta | i really enjoy Freecell :\ |
| 17:05.59 | jasta | but yeah Klondike is basically the worst game ever |
| 17:07.30 | yakischloba | Someday I hope jasta and romainguy_ get to share an office. They really deserve each other ;) |
| 17:07.31 | zhobbs_ | I hope there's a good online multiplayer spades/hearts game |
| 17:07.46 | zhobbs_ | quick pickup games like the ones that come with windows |
| 17:07.51 | romainguy_ | yakischloba: no way :p |
| 17:07.58 | yakischloba | mm chess |
| 17:08.00 | zhobbs_ | lol |
| 17:08.18 | jasta | i would harrass him to a degree previously thought impossible. i am not above nerf guns. |
| 17:08.31 | romainguy_ | well |
| 17:08.35 | yakischloba | romainguy_: don't be shy. your affection is poorly masked. |
| 17:08.40 | romainguy_ | at Sun I built my own office catapult using spare server racks |
| 17:08.56 | romainguy_ | so I'm not afraid of nerf guns |
| 17:09.01 | AttractiveApe | romainguy_: pics or it didn't happen. |
| 17:09.11 | yakischloba | amen |
| 17:09.26 | jasta | lol |
| 17:09.28 | romainguy_ | the first version: http://www.flickr.com/photos/romainguy/82384700/ |
| 17:09.39 | michaelnovakjr | haha, he's got that on speed dial |
| 17:09.47 | jasta | engineering schematics or it didn't happen. |
| 17:10.15 | AttractiveApe | romainguy_: hah, that's actually not bad. |
| 17:10.36 | jasta | i will out-do this and create a trebuchet that launches coffee mugs. |
| 17:10.38 | yakischloba | haha |
| 17:10.46 | romainguy_ | I also had a nice collection of crossbows made out of various office items |
| 17:11.13 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 17:11.14 | jasta | romainguy_: did you see that Mythbusters episode where they made paper crossbows and got one shot off with it that they concluded was potentially lethal. |
| 17:11.27 | romainguy_ | yes :) |
| 17:11.40 | jasta | so basically i should call the ATF and have you arrested? :) |
| 17:11.42 | AttractiveApe | see? Match made in heaven. |
| 17:11.46 | yakischloba | yup |
| 17:13.13 | yakischloba | romainguy_: I thought _I_ was anal about keeping my desk clear. |
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| 17:13.31 | jasta | my desk is an explosive mess of papers. |
| 17:13.37 | jasta | most of them are even dirty and tea stained. |
| 17:14.07 | romainguy_ | yakischloba: I hate to have my desk messy |
| 17:14.23 | romainguy_ | yakischloba: I also can't go to sleep if the closet is open so... :)) |
| 17:14.28 | jasta | but i don't know why it's that way, because i don't even use the papers on my desk. |
| 17:15.13 | jasta | romainguy_: my girlfriend can't sleep if there is a light on in the hallway just barely coming through the side of the door. she actually wakes up in the middle of the night if someone turns the hallway light on. |
| 17:15.22 | yakischloba | heh. i like it clean as well. I don't know about the closet thing though. |
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| 17:24.55 | AttractiveApe | jasta: you have paper on your desk? |
| 17:24.58 | AttractiveApe | Bad sysadmin. BAD. |
| 17:25.04 | jasta | i just leave it there for ages |
| 17:28.17 | michaelnovakjr | jasta your a sysadmin? |
| 17:28.30 | jasta | i have a hybrid systems/engineering position |
| 17:28.43 | jasta | so i wouldn't say it's a sysadmin job, but i wouldn't say it's a programming gig either. |
| 17:28.46 | michaelnovakjr | i had one of those last year... |
| 17:29.04 | jasta | i enjoy it in principal, but i feel like i have done all that i can at my current company |
| 17:29.14 | jasta | so i'm bored |
| 17:29.24 | michaelnovakjr | yea, i also know that feeling :) |
| 17:30.57 | michaelnovakjr | the more i do it, the more i'd like a job doing mobile programming |
| 17:31.06 | michaelnovakjr | its more interesting than i thought |
| 17:31.18 | romainguy_ | michaelnovakjr: because you're not doing J2ME :) |
| 17:31.23 | romainguy_ | or Java ME |
| 17:31.39 | michaelnovakjr | granted, Android is an excellent development platform :) |
| 17:32.00 | michaelnovakjr | even the little bit of iPhone development i've done so far has been interesting |
| 17:32.14 | michaelnovakjr | and yes, even though I don't like the iPhone model :) |
| 17:33.37 | michaelnovakjr | C# on win mobile wasn't too bad either |
| 17:34.10 | jasta | romainguy_: i turned down a J2ME job just last week hehe |
| 17:34.47 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: Don't you ever say that. Mobile development on WinMo is an abomination. |
| 17:35.09 | michaelnovakjr | its not that bad |
| 17:35.26 | jasta | Have you tried doing anything non-trivial? Or deploying an app to support multiple resolutions/orientations? |
| 17:35.44 | jasta | There's not even a standard list widget that works. You have to create it yourself, and even do all the drawing yourself. |
| 17:36.06 | michaelnovakjr | there's a list widget |
| 17:36.15 | jasta | yeah, but have you tried using it? :) |
| 17:36.16 | michaelnovakjr | jasta what version of win mobile? |
| 17:36.19 | michaelnovakjr | yeo |
| 17:36.27 | michaelnovakjr | yea, i've used it in an app before |
| 17:36.38 | michaelnovakjr | i didn't say it was elegant.... but it wasn't bad |
| 17:36.42 | jasta | If I had more patience to boot VMware, I'd send you some sample code I worked with which can trivially break it. |
| 17:37.00 | jasta | I was developing .NET CF 2.0 on WinMo 5 |
| 17:37.16 | jasta | i eventually gave up because it was so pathetic. |
| 17:37.25 | michaelnovakjr | i only had a winmo5 device for about 5 days, i didn't like it |
| 17:37.33 | michaelnovakjr | i did some stuff on win mobile 6 |
| 17:37.48 | jasta | wm6 _may_ have .NET CF 3, but i doubt it. |
| 17:37.55 | romainguy_ | my favorite thing about deploying WinMo app is when you had to deploy them for 3 CPU architectures |
| 17:38.15 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 17:38.17 | jasta | romainguy_: the screen problem is even worse! |
| 17:38.29 | jasta | blech, it's bad. |
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| 17:58.39 | jasta | romainguy_: how do i create a tiling drawable? i have a background pixmap i want to apply to a view but it needs to tile. |
| 17:58.54 | romainguy_ | you wait for the next SDK :) |
| 17:58.58 | jasta | wait, i think i know this already. i must use Shader.TileMode, huh? |
| 17:58.58 | romainguy_ | or you create your own Drawable |
| 17:59.02 | romainguy_ | yes |
| 17:59.22 | jasta | yeah i've used that before, i'll look it up |
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| 18:38.18 | jasta | romainguy_: that was not so painful. i just use a PaintDrawable and set a tiling BitmapShader... |
| 18:38.22 | jasta | used* |
| 18:38.38 | jasta | hopefully that's not miserably inefficient or something |
| 18:38.43 | michaelnovakjr | herriojr: did you get your app working? |
| 18:39.07 | michaelnovakjr | jasta, not anymore inefficient than working on an old sdk :) |
| 18:39.33 | michaelnovakjr | but then again, who said anything about being efficient? :) |
| 18:39.45 | jasta | i'm talking about efficient code |
| 18:39.47 | jasta | and i care :) |
| 18:40.22 | michaelnovakjr | :) |
| 18:41.04 | michaelnovakjr | if i didn't care, i wouldn't be programming right now :) |
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| 18:54.42 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: so, i want to make it when you click on a card stack, it highlights it to indicate you have selected it |
| 18:54.49 | jasta | with a simple orange glow around it or whatever |
| 18:55.11 | jasta | do you think i should just adust all the layout/measure/drawing code to pad for this space? |
| 18:55.25 | herriojr | what was the link you guys gave me the other day to try and download an app to a kaiser running android? |
| 18:55.26 | jasta | or do you think i should wrap it in another View which specifically does this padding/glow effect? |
| 18:55.53 | michaelnovakjr | can't you actually add a highlight to the layer you desire |
| 18:56.02 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: what do you mean? |
| 18:56.07 | michaelnovakjr | herriojr: http://code.google.com/p/android-random |
| 18:56.14 | herriojr | thanks |
| 18:58.56 | michaelnovakjr | jasta, nevermind i was thinking of something else, i would say wrap it in another View, depending on how many you would have to adjust in the first option |
| 18:59.09 | michaelnovakjr | it might be the more efficient approach |
| 18:59.22 | jasta | well it would certainly be the simplest, that way my CardStackView wouldn't need to hold all that logic |
| 18:59.23 | michaelnovakjr | herriojr: no problem |
| 18:59.42 | jasta | it would just be a simple selectable view that when selected, draws a glow around whatever view it is contaning |
| 18:59.46 | michaelnovakjr | jasta, yea... plus that logic has to be computed.... which might bog it down |
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| 19:02.59 | michaelnovakjr | it would be nice if the View class had a method like setSelector( Drawable d ) like in AbsListView |
| 19:03.12 | michaelnovakjr | or maybe not the View class, maybe ViewGroup |
| 19:03.23 | jasta | that wouldn't help in this case |
| 19:03.29 | michaelnovakjr | no? |
| 19:03.39 | jasta | the issue is that the glow is *around* the widget. outside of its drawing rectangle. |
| 19:03.49 | michaelnovakjr | ah, good point |
| 19:04.00 | jasta | that's why i could either hack that padding into the view i'm using it for, or create a view that encapsulates another but adds padding for this glow. |
| 19:05.12 | michaelnovakjr | yea |
| 19:06.21 | michaelnovakjr | i'd say encapsulating might be the way to go, unless of course it has to redraw the whole screen anyway. |
| 19:06.43 | linnuxxy | is there a reference hardware implementation that run Andriod? |
| 19:06.50 | jasta | linnuxxy: not officially |
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| 19:09.57 | linnuxxy | jasta: i c.. thnx |
| 19:10.27 | fariseo | who build that touch.screen device that horovitz demoed in that first intro video? HTC? |
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| 19:29.13 | herriojr | is anyone familiar with the kaiser bootkit for android? |
| 19:30.26 | michaelnovakjr | what's your issue? |
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| 19:30.58 | herriojr | so, I'm trying to figure out where I need to install applications, on the android.bin (initrd image) or the android-data.bin |
| 19:31.16 | michaelnovakjr | android-data i would assume |
| 19:31.30 | michaelnovakjr | do you use a linux computer? |
| 19:31.36 | herriojr | yeah |
| 19:31.48 | herriojr | so, they both seem to pretty much be the same thing |
| 19:31.48 | michaelnovakjr | mount the android-data and put the apk in the app directory |
| 19:32.00 | herriojr | I can't mount it, I have to unpack it |
| 19:32.07 | herriojr | via cpio |
| 19:32.20 | michaelnovakjr | ok, do you see an app directory? |
| 19:32.29 | herriojr | yeah, I've tried that, but it never works |
| 19:32.35 | herriojr | under data/app |
| 19:32.45 | herriojr | in the android-data.bin |
| 19:32.58 | michaelnovakjr | are there other apk's in there? |
| 19:33.12 | herriojr | Sms.apk and one other |
| 19:33.31 | michaelnovakjr | that is where you should put your apk |
| 19:33.38 | michaelnovakjr | what happens when you do? |
| 19:34.04 | herriojr | one of two things....it either has a hell of a hard time booting up android, or it never shows up in the menu |
| 19:34.53 | michaelnovakjr | it could be the way you are repacking the android-data |
| 19:35.25 | herriojr | find ./ | cpio -H newc -o > ../new-data |
| 19:35.44 | herriojr | then I run gzip it up and rename it to android-data.bin |
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| 19:36.41 | herriojr | when I try and install it in the initrd image through the same way, it won't boot android |
| 19:36.48 | herriojr | it freezes while loading /dev |
| 19:38.31 | michaelnovakjr | how are you running gzip? |
| 19:38.41 | herriojr | gzip new-data |
| 19:39.13 | michaelnovakjr | try gzip -9 |
| 19:39.19 | michaelnovakjr | gzip -9 new-data |
| 19:39.20 | herriojr | ok |
| 19:39.39 | herriojr | I think I may have found the problem, though....I don't see in initrd where android-data.bin is referenced |
| 19:41.56 | michaelnovakjr | why would that be? |
| 19:42.42 | herriojr | I don't completely understand how the kernel knows to load android-data.bin, let me check to see if it is compiled into the kernel |
| 19:44.41 | herriojr | I'm thinking that they may be using a file they don't actually need, which may be why I've been so confused why it hasn't been working |
| 19:44.48 | herriojr | at least I hope that's the issue |
| 19:46.37 | herriojr | yup, that's my issue |
| 19:46.52 | herriojr | they didn't document how android.bin and android-data.bin were used |
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| 19:53.35 | jasta | herriojr: i was thinking about answering you but you have me on ignore so meh. |
| 19:58.34 | herriojr | how do I have you on ignore? |
| 19:59.07 | herriojr | no, you weren't on ignore as far as I know |
| 19:59.24 | jasta | maybe i'm thinking of someone else. |
| 19:59.42 | jasta | android.bin seems to be an initrd, which is the responsibility of the bootloader. |
| 19:59.48 | jasta | in this case, that would be haret. |
| 20:00.51 | jasta | android-data.bin seems to just be an alternative initrd. |
| 20:01.15 | jasta | doesn't seem to be much difference between the two. let me check diff. |
| 20:02.09 | herriojr | yeah, I already diffed them |
| 20:02.10 | jasta | android-data is different. the differences seem to be in modem setup, and at commands |
| 20:02.12 | herriojr | not much different |
| 20:02.15 | jasta | so it's likely that android-data is just for getting GPRS |
| 20:03.30 | jasta | but again, haret loads these files. you instruct it which one through default.txt |
| 20:03.32 | michaelnovakjr | herriojr: hopefully you put the HttpDownloader app on there |
| 20:03.43 | michaelnovakjr | that way you don't have to do that again :) |
| 20:03.45 | herriojr | I will once I verify that everything works |
| 20:04.08 | herriojr | ;) |
| 20:04.43 | herriojr | haret is flaky on the kaiser, so it may take some time to verify :) |
| 20:05.56 | jasta | herriojr: my mistake, i just look trhoguh my logs and it was indeed someone else :) |
| 20:06.07 | jasta | some troll that came in just before you and i got the handles mixed up. |
| 20:06.39 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: i utilized custom attributes in the Solitaire app |
| 20:06.43 | jasta | ;) |
| 20:06.53 | michaelnovakjr | oh nice :) |
| 20:07.07 | jasta | let's you control card orientation and visibility of the card stack view i have. |
| 20:09.23 | michaelnovakjr | sweet |
| 20:09.34 | michaelnovakjr | i plan to start looking more at all the graphics stuff tongith |
| 20:09.37 | jasta | i'll commit it soon |
| 20:09.51 | michaelnovakjr | i'm going to write up a simple puzzle game |
| 20:09.54 | jasta | i actually have a pretty solid handle of the graphics stuff i think. i spent a lot of time futzing with it (and romain *grin*) for five |
| 20:10.19 | michaelnovakjr | cool |
| 20:10.50 | michaelnovakjr | i was comtemplating writing up a simple little AppManager for the phone that basically wraps the HttpDownloader |
| 20:12.39 | jasta | not a bad idea. |
| 20:13.06 | michaelnovakjr | something that could simply give an interface to search for the apk's and then install them. |
| 20:13.33 | michaelnovakjr | also manage updates as well so the user would have to look for updates |
| 20:13.40 | michaelnovakjr | nothing too overkill though |
| 20:14.32 | michaelnovakjr | i guess it could be the beginning of an open source apk manager |
| 20:15.05 | jasta | you might want to look at something like SlideME. perhaps they already have an implementation? |
| 20:20.41 | michaelnovakjr | that seems interesting |
| 20:23.04 | jasta | romainguy_: in attrs.xml, how do you specify a styleable attribute that uses string literals, but isn't a string format? |
| 20:23.23 | jasta | for example, view visibility can be visible, invisible, or gone, but nothing else. |
| 20:23.30 | jasta | how is that achieved? |
| 20:25.03 | romainguy_ | it's an enum |
| 20:25.06 | romainguy_ | you can also use flags |
| 20:25.20 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.21 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.21 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.21 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.21 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.23 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.25 | romainguy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:25.26 | jasta | ahh, excellent. |
| 20:25.31 | jasta | i figured it would be something like that |
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| 20:36.06 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: it's hard for me to get in the habbit of prefixing the module name to the svn commit message :) |
| 20:36.29 | michaelnovakjr | yea, I forgot a few times myself |
| 20:42.04 | jasta | android-random has like 7k loc in it these days |
| 20:43.31 | jasta | michaelnovakjr: somehow our whole repository is locked right now |
| 20:43.33 | jasta | that's cute |
| 20:43.47 | jasta | at least my side thinks it is |
| 20:44.00 | michaelnovakjr | locked huh? |
| 20:45.14 | michaelnovakjr | you mean like you have a conflict? |
| 20:45.22 | jasta | no, like svn status shows all is locked |
| 20:45.46 | michaelnovakjr | i just ran an svn update and then svn status, i don't get locks |
| 20:45.53 | michaelnovakjr | did you try to resolve them? |
| 20:46.44 | jasta | meh, i'll deal with it later |
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| 21:15.30 | herriojr | somehow my image is becoming corrupt when I package it...here's what I'm doing: |
| 21:15.30 | herriojr | su root |
| 21:15.30 | herriojr | cp android.bin android.gz && gunzip android.gz && mkdir filesystem && cd filesystem && cpio -i < ../android && cp ../Snake.apk data/app && find ./ | cpio -H newc -o > ../new_android && gzip ../new_android.bin |
| 21:15.51 | herriojr | I also tried it with gzip -9 btw |
| 21:16.16 | jasta | are you root? |
| 21:16.25 | jasta | also, that should be gzip > ... |
| 21:16.58 | jasta | fyi, your first set of commands are unnecessary. gunzip -c ../android.bin | cpio ... will work. |
| 21:19.56 | herriojr | tomatoes, tomatoes....can't really do that without a voice :) |
| 21:20.37 | herriojr | I'm going to be pissed when it ends up being something really simple |
| 21:21.35 | herriojr | I think it must be something to do with how it was originally cpio -i |
| 21:22.11 | herriojr | or rather cpio -o |
| 21:22.20 | jasta | hang on, i'll recall the commands i have used |
| 21:22.53 | herriojr | if I unpack the original, it unpacks subdirectories and files....if I unpack the one I create, it only unpacks those files and folders in the root directory |
| 21:23.08 | jasta | gunzip -c ../initrd-android | cpio -id |
| 21:23.20 | jasta | find ./ | cpio -H newc -o | gzip > ../initrd-android-custom |
| 21:23.31 | jasta | these are both as root. |
| 21:23.33 | herriojr | ok, I'll try it, hopefully it works |
| 21:23.46 | jasta | the find . expects cwd to be in the extracted root. |
| 21:24.22 | herriojr | cwd? |
| 21:24.35 | jasta | current working directory |
| 21:24.38 | herriojr | ah ok |
| 21:24.42 | herriojr | yeah, I know that :) |
| 21:25.13 | herriojr | I'm not a total idiot :) |
| 21:25.28 | herriojr | just a partial one |
| 21:35.08 | herriojr | is it fine that I keep getting cpio: : No such file or directory when unpacking my package? |
| 21:35.25 | herriojr | "cpio: : No such file or directory" |
| 21:36.31 | jasta | No. |
| 21:36.36 | jasta | you very likely are not root. |
| 21:36.48 | herriojr | I'm root |
| 21:37.02 | herriojr | it still unpackages everything, but it throws that first |
| 21:37.18 | herriojr | only on the one I created |
| 21:37.22 | jasta | extract and recombine without changing anything and then md5sum the two. that will tell you if you can ignore that warning. |
| 21:37.28 | jasta | my guess is no. |
| 21:41.05 | herriojr | yeah, they're different |
| 21:41.44 | herriojr | hmm |
| 21:46.05 | jasta | romainguy_: am i supposed to treat these <enum> attributes as integers? i.e., use StyledAttributes#getInt? |
| 21:47.43 | jasta | it seems that getInt's default value is returned in every case. |
| 21:57.27 | jasta | i just confirmed with getValue that it doesn't find a value. |
| 21:57.41 | jasta | *confused* |
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| 21:59.42 | herriojr | ok, I fixed the error, had to do "find * | cpio ...." |
| 21:59.50 | herriojr | let's see if it works now |
| 21:59.53 | herriojr | cd .. |
| 21:59.54 | herriojr | ls |
| 22:00.18 | jasta | herriojr: find * will not catch hidden files, btw. |
| 22:00.44 | herriojr | shit |
| 22:00.48 | herriojr | ok |
| 22:00.51 | herriojr | hmm |
| 22:01.31 | herriojr | I know what I'll do....do a find, then remove all ./ on each line |
| 22:01.47 | jasta | that won't be a problem. |
| 22:02.03 | jasta | you probably just must remove '..' |
| 22:02.31 | jasta | though i dont know why that would be there |
| 22:02.32 | herriojr | find doesn't find '..' |
| 22:02.39 | herriojr | I think it is the line './' |
| 22:02.51 | jasta | cpio is taking as input a list of files to compress. the leading ./ should not affect them. |
| 22:03.05 | jasta | but meh, i dont have time to look at this for you |
| 22:03.29 | herriojr | np, I'm checking it out |
| 22:05.10 | herriojr | yup, removing the ./ line got rid of the warning |
| 22:05.42 | jasta | romainguy_: *poke*, i'm really confused here... |
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| 22:19.02 | romainguy_ | jasta: enum is just a getInt() yes |
| 22:19.24 | jasta | i'm implementing the constructo with Context, AttributeSet, and Map params... |
| 22:19.25 | jasta | and invoking: |
| 22:19.31 | jasta | Resources.StyledAttributes a = context.obtainStyledAttributes(attrs, |
| 22:19.32 | jasta | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:19.32 | jasta | TypedValue tv = new TypedValue(); |
| 22:19.32 | jasta | boolean b = a.getValue(R.styleable.CardStackView_card_orientation, tv); |
| 22:19.37 | jasta | in every case, b is false. |
| 22:19.45 | jasta | i mean, for any value of my attribute i give. |
| 22:20.21 | jasta | likewise, aapt does not error out when i write something like solitaire:card_orientation="foobarbaz" |
| 22:20.27 | jasta | even though foobarbaz is of course not one of the possible enums |
| 22:21.27 | jasta | doesn't even error out at runtime. |
| 22:22.06 | jasta | neither does solitaire:foobar="baz" |
| 22:22.24 | jasta | i take it this functionality is somehow not working in M5? |
| 22:23.39 | romainguy_ | it is working in M5 |
| 22:23.44 | romainguy_ | it's what we use everywhere |
| 22:23.49 | romainguy_ | like LinearLayout_orientation |
| 22:24.27 | romainguy_ | jasta: boolean b = a.getValue(R.styleable.CardStackView_card_orientation, tv); << you're not using getInt() here |
| 22:24.37 | jasta | i was just testing. getInt yields the default always. |
| 22:25.08 | jasta | getValue would not return false where getInt would return a non-default I assumed. |
| 22:25.43 | romainguy_ | the Home screen in M5 uses this |
| 22:25.44 | romainguy_ | and it works |
| 22:25.54 | romainguy_ | did you define the namespace correctly? |
| 22:26.27 | jasta | i don't know. i just wrote xmlns:solitaire="http://wherever/whatever", i assumed it was not validating the DTD |
| 22:27.12 | jasta | wait, i think i see the problem. weird that this was not an error. |
| 22:28.28 | jasta | no that wasn't it. i had accidentally left off <?xml ...?> |
| 22:28.45 | romainguy_ | define your namespace this way: xmlns:launcher="http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/com.android.launcher" |
| 22:28.53 | romainguy_ | with the package name of your apk at the end |
| 22:29.09 | jasta | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:29.12 | jasta | i used that |
| 22:29.26 | jasta | org.devtcg.games.solitaire is the package name from the manifest |
| 22:29.45 | jasta | the whole thing is public if you want to just look |
| 22:31.22 | jasta | http://code.google.com/p/android-random/source/browse/#svn/trunk/Solitaire |
| 22:31.54 | jasta | res/layout/klondike.xml is the layout i'm using, src/.../view/CardStackView.java is the view in question which is supposed to honor these attributes |
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| 22:41.55 | Dougie187 | good evening everyone. |
| 22:41.58 | jasta | hey Dougie187. |
| 22:42.07 | Dougie187 | hows it going jasta> |
| 22:42.38 | jasta | good, futzing with android |
| 22:42.43 | jasta | but im stuck so, now im watching tv :) |
| 22:43.17 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 22:43.18 | Dougie187 | are you at home? |
| 22:43.19 | yakischloba | hi Dougie187 |
| 22:43.24 | Dougie187 | hey yakischloba |
| 22:43.29 | Dougie187 | hows it going with you yakischloba? |
| 22:43.29 | yakischloba | how goes it |
| 22:43.32 | jasta | Dougie187: yeah, i have a vacation day today |
| 22:43.41 | Dougie187 | nice. well im gonna hop on if you wanna play some. |
| 22:43.44 | yakischloba | eh alright. grinding out a boring rails application :/ |
| 22:45.00 | Dougie187 | that doesnt sound too fun. |
| 22:45.46 | yakischloba | No it sucks. I've been putting it off for a long time. I have an interview for a new job tomorrow, and I feel obligated to finish this before I leave the company if I get the new job. So I figured I should start on it now. |
| 22:46.15 | Dougie187 | well that is rather nice of you. |
| 22:46.24 | Dougie187 | i think most people would say, f them. |
| 22:46.25 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 22:46.44 | jasta | i have the same attitude as yakischloba |
| 22:46.56 | yakischloba | hardly returning the favor. Probably 80% of the programming I've learned in the last year has been on the company's dime. |
| 22:47.01 | jasta | lately i've been doing a lot of work to document and de-vodoo some of my stuff |
| 22:47.05 | jasta | so they arent screwed when i leave |
| 22:47.31 | yakischloba | Yeah. I'm going to have to do the same. I don't think anyone even knows what I do anymore. |
| 22:47.57 | jasta | yakischloba: ditto. |
| 22:48.22 | Dougie187 | well thats cool |
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| 22:49.46 | yakischloba | I'm going to continue to provide help when necessary after I leave, and also continue to develop the software I've worked on here. I would really feel lame if I just ditched out after having the boss make such an investment in me and not get his return. |
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| 22:51.57 | yakischloba | I just want to be in an environment more conducive to learning...and get paid more :) |
| 22:54.26 | Dougie187 | me too! |
| 22:54.26 | Dougie187 | lol |
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| 23:10.49 | yakischloba | time to get out of this sweaty office and work in a coffee shop or something. back in a bit! |
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