| 00:08.51 | jasta | some asshole at work ate my pizza, what the hell |
| 00:09.00 | jasta | i brought in leftover pizza on wed and left it in the fridge |
| 00:09.10 | jasta | went to bring it home for dinner tonight and it was gone |
| 00:11.54 | yakischloba | fucker |
| 00:12.34 | jasta | i bet i know who it was too |
| 00:12.52 | jasta | we have this really scummy guy we just hired a few weeks ago |
| 00:13.49 | f00f- | hahahhahhah |
| 00:14.04 | f00f- | that sux man |
| 00:14.44 | jasta | i don't even know what it does, probably customer service. he's 40 something years old and still acts like he's 16. |
| 00:14.58 | yakischloba | hah |
| 00:15.04 | f00f- | is he serious some of the time? |
| 00:15.12 | jasta | well it's not that he's not serious |
| 00:15.24 | jasta | it's just that he's a big loser. no sense of personal responsibility. |
| 00:16.05 | jasta | he's the type of guy that gets drunk alone, if you know what i mean. |
| 00:16.10 | yakischloba | wow. so this girl gave me some cheese and i was just eating it and wonder why the rind was so fucking hard, turns out I ate half the block of cheese with another piece of paper still on it |
| 00:16.16 | yakischloba | jasta: thats me you're talking about, watch it ;) |
| 00:16.21 | f00f- | lollerskates |
| 00:16.39 | jasta | yakischloba: are you saying you ate my pizza? |
| 00:16.40 | jasta | :) |
| 00:16.42 | f00f- | hey! i have gotten drunk alone while coding! |
| 00:16.45 | yakischloba | heh |
| 00:17.05 | yakischloba | no I'm saying I have a drinking problem. I wish I ate your pizza though, I'm kinda hungry. |
| 00:17.17 | f00f- | heh |
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| 00:52.30 | jasta | gah |
| 00:52.32 | jasta | i hate implementing onMeasure |
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| 01:00.07 | jasta | i hope Google eventually optimizes dex so that the generated class from enums is negated where possible. |
| 01:00.35 | jasta | a simple usage without any additional methods applied could be reduced quite simply to integers with crude typechecking enabled. |
| 01:00.57 | jasta | or it could just toss out typechecking through a pragma. |
| 01:01.26 | jasta | it is frustrating not using enum for this reason. |
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| 01:07.02 | jasta | romainguy: is there some reason why mPreferredWidth/Height is private, and there's no getter? |
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| 01:14.05 | ttuttle | romainguy_: hey! |
| 01:14.12 | ttuttle | :-( |
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| 01:15.22 | ttuttle | :-) |
| 01:15.56 | yakischloba | hard to get. |
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| 01:27.18 | ttuttle | romainguy_: hi |
| 01:27.20 | ttuttle | yakischloba: heh |
| 01:28.16 | ttuttle | is sad. |
| 01:28.24 | ttuttle | Today was my last day as an intern working on Android. |
| 01:30.57 | yakischloba | aww. |
| 01:33.36 | f00f- | nice |
| 01:33.40 | f00f- | where did you wor? |
| 01:33.48 | f00f- | compiels php |
| 01:33.52 | f00f- | done |
| 02:04.49 | ttuttle | f00f-: Cambridge office. |
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| 04:12.25 | muthu | http://www.moconews.net/entry/419-t-mobile-usa-to-revamp-content-strategy-in-the-fall-to-mirror-apples-ap/ |
| 04:14.05 | jasta | say what, CheckinService.class? |
| 04:14.06 | jasta | err |
| 04:14.08 | jasta | oops ;) |
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| 04:16.38 | muthu | jasta: how's it goin? |
| 04:17.44 | jasta | good |
| 04:17.45 | muthu | don't you think the android appstore idea is great? |
| 04:20.41 | jasta | actually, i don't |
| 04:20.49 | jasta | "it's also unclear how free apps will be handled" |
| 04:21.08 | yakischloba___ | muthu: its great for an entrepreneur like yourself :) |
| 04:21.20 | muthu | its great for everyone |
| 04:21.38 | muthu | free apps are free |
| 04:21.44 | muthu | just like the apple model |
| 04:22.01 | muthu | yakischloba___: everyone's an entrepreneur ;) |
| 04:22.25 | yakischloba___ | haha |
| 04:23.59 | jasta | muthu: did it say that? |
| 04:24.51 | jasta | it is so infuriating when you purport opinion as fact. |
| 04:24.56 | muthu | lol |
| 04:24.59 | muthu | cool down.. |
| 04:25.09 | f00f- | it's not an opinion |
| 04:25.18 | muthu | jasta: gets real mad |
| 04:25.29 | muthu | he needs a public sdk fix ;) |
| 04:25.45 | f00f- | i'm trying to set up lighttpd |
| 04:25.50 | f00f- | it's not going my way |
| 04:26.05 | muthu | f00f-: what's the problem? |
| 04:26.17 | f00f- | php is giving me: |
| 04:26.20 | f00f- | No input file specified. |
| 04:26.31 | f00f- | i'm spawning off php as external fastcgi proceses |
| 04:26.36 | muthu | oh |
| 04:26.47 | f00f- | but i ned to rewrite prior to passing to fastcgi |
| 04:27.40 | f00f- | and like wtf |
| 04:27.45 | muthu | hmm |
| 04:27.46 | f00f- | i need to restart the server for config changes?! |
| 04:27.53 | muthu | restart the service |
| 04:28.12 | f00f- | i'm doing a killlall |
| 04:28.16 | f00f- | -HUP doesnt seem to reread config |
| 04:29.32 | muthu | the entrepreneur talk went really well |
| 04:29.40 | muthu | too bad i didn't put them on slides |
| 04:29.56 | f00f- | what talk? |
| 04:32.11 | muthu | it was a local talk i gave |
| 04:32.29 | muthu | to a group of budding entropos |
| 04:32.59 | f00f- | nice |
| 04:33.25 | muthu | these are the things that are fun |
| 04:34.48 | muthu | i'm stuck in coders block |
| 04:36.10 | f00f- | yeah |
| 04:36.13 | f00f- | i'm stuck in a config block |
| 04:36.30 | yakischloba___ | lol |
| 04:36.53 | yakischloba___ | always amused when programmers can't do things like setup web servers ;) |
| 04:37.07 | f00f- | heh |
| 04:37.25 | f00f- | i've had the most secure stable fastcgi + php + suexec + apache setup running for 5 years straight |
| 04:37.29 | f00f- | i want to try lighttpd |
| 04:37.34 | yakischloba___ | heh |
| 04:37.36 | yakischloba___ | take a risk! |
| 04:39.51 | muthu | f00f-: why? |
| 04:39.59 | jasta | why in the fuck do you use cgi? |
| 04:40.22 | muthu | haha |
| 04:40.23 | f00f- | muthu: lower resource requyirement |
| 04:40.35 | f00f- | jasta: go read up on FastCGI scales better than mod_php and that shit |
| 04:41.26 | jasta | i find that very hard to believe. can you give me the 5 minute version as to why? |
| 04:41.49 | f00f- | easy to horizontally scale vs mod_php |
| 04:42.00 | f00f- | X number of processes per box |
| 04:42.02 | f00f- | easily farmable |
| 04:42.03 | jasta | Why, thought? What about FastCGI's architecture provides for this? |
| 04:42.06 | f00f- | to create a cluster |
| 04:42.11 | jasta | though* |
| 04:42.13 | dmoffett_ | f00f have you looked at nginx? |
| 04:42.37 | f00f- | dmoffett_: it's poor documentation/website made me not want to download it, one thing at a time :) |
| 04:44.36 | muthu | f00f-: why the sudden scaling requirement ;) |
| 04:44.55 | f00f- | it's never too early :) |
| 04:45.12 | dmoffett_ | We have been using nginx for quite a while. The hardest part has been keeping up with Igor's releases of nginx. He puts out a new version daily. :-) The docs are not that great for sure. |
| 04:45.32 | f00f- | plus i need a better way to do dev/staging/production releases |
| 04:45.54 | f00f- | dmoffett_: yeah i've heard good things about it |
| 04:48.50 | muthu | wow, a daily release! |
| 04:49.11 | muthu | what abut django? |
| 04:49.43 | dmoffett_ | That is an exaggeration but the guy must be coding day and night. |
| 04:49.44 | f00f- | muthu: and rewrite my entire backend? :P |
| 04:49.58 | muthu | yeah, must be fun :)) |
| 04:50.01 | f00f- | seriously, i have no UI at all, it's just an API |
| 04:50.10 | f00f- | i'm just using PHP since that's what i started with |
| 04:50.10 | dmoffett_ | He is very prompt at help though. If you need help with nginx Igor will help you. |
| 04:50.31 | muthu | dmoffett_: nginx is a unix flavor? |
| 04:50.50 | dmoffett_ | Web server from Russia with Love. |
| 04:51.31 | f00f- | :D |
| 04:52.09 | dmoffett_ | http://wiki.codemongers.com/Main |
| 04:55.08 | muthu | guess, igor drew the illustrations ;) |
| 04:55.37 | dmoffett_ | I don't think so since there is only one version today. |
| 04:56.59 | muthu | why use nginx, when we have apache? |
| 04:58.15 | dmoffett_ | I think you would consider nginx if you need a faster web server. |
| 04:59.00 | f00f- | i used to use boa way back in the day for a while |
| 04:59.16 | f00f- | before lighttpd and nginx came to be |
| 04:59.30 | f00f- | really fast for static content |
| 04:59.34 | f00f- | it'd smoke apache |
| 04:59.52 | f00f- | ok i got it working! |
| 04:59.55 | f00f- | this is kinda cool |
| 05:00.05 | f00f- | now i can have different versions of the api running seamlessly |
| 05:00.21 | muthu | different version of your software? |
| 05:00.25 | f00f- | yes |
| 05:00.35 | dmoffett_ | Nice |
| 05:00.42 | muthu | why? |
| 05:01.05 | f00f- | one for ADC, one for testing, one for dev |
| 05:01.20 | f00f- | ADC one is obviously frozen |
| 05:01.23 | jasta | anyone want to try out my solitaire game? |
| 05:01.24 | jasta | it finally works |
| 05:01.33 | jasta | even if the cards still look like hell |
| 05:02.07 | muthu | i've checked out the source.. not compiled yet |
| 05:02.39 | jasta | well svn update |
| 05:02.59 | jasta | im at rev120 |
| 05:03.11 | muthu | doing an update.. |
| 05:03.18 | jasta | its buildable with maven if you have it |
| 05:03.24 | jasta | mvn install, really simple. |
| 05:03.50 | jasta | the card drawing code hasn't been touched since M3, except to make it build. |
| 05:03.58 | jasta | so i need to revisit that with obviously an improved sense of how that works |
| 05:04.01 | jasta | and make it no so ugly |
| 05:04.04 | muthu | really, maven? |
| 05:04.05 | jasta | and i need new images for the suits |
| 05:04.05 | muthu | cool |
| 05:04.09 | jasta | i copied them from aisleriot |
| 05:04.18 | jasta | and of course, this is just Klondike. Freecell and maybe Hearts will come soon. |
| 05:04.22 | jasta | the engine was the tricky part. |
| 05:04.38 | jasta | i also need to fix the stack selection stuff. the game logic needs to be able to choose a more flexible way of selecting stacks |
| 05:04.52 | jasta | for example, Freecell would need to let you arbitrarily choose some number of cards from the stack, not just the whole stack. |
| 05:04.57 | jasta | but that isn't too much work |
| 05:04.57 | muthu | i can just build solitaire, right? |
| 05:05.08 | jasta | you should be able to? |
| 05:05.21 | muthu | ok.. doing 'mvn install'.. |
| 05:05.35 | jasta | (be aware that if you haven't used Maven before for Android, you'll need to do some extra steps first) |
| 05:05.36 | muthu | oh |
| 05:05.42 | muthu | exactly |
| 05:06.08 | jasta | i forgot about that :) |
| 05:06.13 | jasta | might be easier just to import into eclipse |
| 05:06.21 | muthu | ok |
| 05:06.38 | jasta | there is also one major feature missing: the game doesn't automatically move certain "win" cards for you. |
| 05:06.52 | jasta | basically beacuse i don't know what the optimal logic is for Klondike. i need to research that or sit down and think about it for a sec. |
| 05:07.45 | jasta | as a convenience, Solitaire games should solve themselves once you get the right cards out. but it should do so incrementally and non-destructively. for example, aces should automatically go up. and certain numbered cards should automatically go up. but only when it won't screw up your game. |
| 05:07.52 | muthu | got some errors |
| 05:07.55 | jasta | ? |
| 05:08.08 | muthu | compile errors |
| 05:08.13 | jasta | i know that, what are they? |
| 05:11.55 | jasta | ? |
| 05:12.08 | muthu | opening in editor.. |
| 05:14.23 | jasta | are you sure you're at r120? |
| 05:14.30 | muthu | yes |
| 05:14.37 | jasta | *confused* :) |
| 05:14.58 | muthu | Updated to revision 120. |
| 05:15.26 | jasta | hehe |
| 05:22.33 | muthu | jasta: the android opensource promise includes the linux kernel too.. isn't it? |
| 05:30.03 | jasta | uhm |
| 05:30.26 | jasta | the git repository is public, but more than that, it would be a copyright violation (and a BIG ONE) to not include the kernel source code. |
| 05:30.37 | muthu | ok |
| 05:38.45 | f00f- | i dare them not to release the source :P |
| 05:38.51 | f00f- | that would be an interesting fight :D |
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| 07:07.43 | gambler | muthu, did u produce any slides for your tlak |
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| 07:29.12 | jasta | f00f-: it would be an easy fight. |
| 07:29.20 | jasta | the FSF would sue them, and they would win, quickly. |
| 07:29.40 | jasta | just as they've done with every other clear-cut violation of the GPL |
| 07:29.57 | jasta | the GPL, as it turns out, is not so hard to enforce. |
| 07:30.06 | muthu | where's the violation now? |
| 07:31.41 | jasta | there isn't one, because they released the code. |
| 07:31.54 | jasta | f00f- was just commented "what if" they hadn't. |
| 07:32.07 | romainguy | jasta: the git repository is public, but more than that, it would be a copyright violation (and a BIG ONE) to not include the kernel source code. << actually no, the GPL just asks you to provide the source code if asked |
| 07:32.14 | jasta | and the answer to that what if a swift kcik in the arse from the FSF :) |
| 07:32.41 | jasta | romainguy: i know that, and his question was whether it would be provided. |
| 07:33.10 | jasta | included with the main download is irrelevant, and i didn't mean include so strictly in that sense. |
| 07:33.16 | jasta | because even now, you don't include the source that way. |
| 07:34.16 | muthu | good times ahead for android developers |
| 07:34.49 | muthu | glad we have a couple of months to polish our app |
| 07:36.09 | muthu | guess, must be more than a couple |
| 07:36.58 | muthu | lunch |
| 07:38.20 | jasta | muthu: did you ever get the app to compile, btw? |
| 07:51.06 | muthu | jasta: there were 9 errors |
| 07:51.17 | jasta | and what were they? |
| 07:51.27 | jasta | you are using M5, right? |
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| 07:52.11 | muthu | is it not m3? |
| 07:52.24 | jasta | no, it is m5. |
| 07:52.32 | muthu | oh oh |
| 07:52.40 | jasta | why would it be for m3? |
| 07:52.54 | muthu | that's what you said |
| 07:53.17 | muthu | let me try again |
| 07:53.27 | jasta | i said i wrote this way back for m3 originally |
| 07:53.34 | jasta | i updated and finished it just last week |
| 07:53.40 | muthu | in m3? |
| 07:53.51 | jasta | i updated it to M5, of course. |
| 07:53.57 | muthu | ha! |
| 07:54.19 | muthu | was trying to fix errors.. but my ide froze and died |
| 07:54.25 | muthu | now trying again.. |
| 08:03.46 | jasta | romainguy: you there? |
| 08:03.51 | romainguy_ | yeah |
| 08:05.02 | muthu | ok.. compile good |
| 08:05.05 | muthu | running.. |
| 08:05.16 | jasta | i am still a little fuzzy on the onFreeze/onPause/onStop nuances. |
| 08:05.30 | jasta | for my solitaire game, what would be the ideal way to persist game state as the user navigates away? |
| 08:05.46 | jasta | i don't think it makes sense to persist on disk, if the phone is shut off for example, but persisting while it remains running is a priority. |
| 08:06.01 | romainguy_ | just use a Bundle then |
| 08:06.02 | jasta | i had thought onFreeze would be the place to do that. saving the state each time in the proided bundle. |
| 08:06.11 | jasta | but it seems not to be handed back to my app on onCreate()? |
| 08:06.31 | romainguy_ | it should |
| 08:07.15 | jasta | is there some special trick? in onFreeze, i'm just calling icicle.putString("test", "test"); |
| 08:07.23 | romainguy_ | that's all you have to do |
| 08:08.33 | jasta | it definitely doesn't come back. it's null each time. |
| 08:08.40 | jasta | all i'm doing is opening my activity, then pressing escape to back out of it. |
| 08:08.52 | romainguy_ | how do you force an onCreate? |
| 08:08.53 | jasta | then click on the icon in the launcher again, and it gets a clean slate and onCreate called all over again |
| 08:09.14 | jasta | if i go into the activity then press home instead, and go back, it does not call onCreate again |
| 08:09.40 | romainguy_ | right, your activity just got resumed |
| 08:09.48 | romainguy_ | it's weird that by pressing back you go through onCreate |
| 08:09.56 | romainguy_ | are you calling finish() somewhere? |
| 08:10.01 | jasta | no, definitely not. |
| 08:10.21 | romainguy_ | are you using special modes in the manifest? |
| 08:10.25 | jasta | i believe i had experienced this bug once before, where i told you that my listactivity scroll position was not preserved. |
| 08:10.38 | jasta | it was probably because onCreate was firing again, and with a null icicle. |
| 08:10.44 | jasta | no, the manifest is quite plain. |
| 08:10.59 | romainguy_ | anyway |
| 08:11.01 | jasta | basically what eclipse generated |
| 08:11.08 | romainguy_ | the best way to test that code then is to rotate the screen |
| 08:11.14 | romainguy_ | you'll get an onCreate with your bundle |
| 08:11.45 | jasta | that segfaulted my emulator |
| 08:11.51 | romainguy_ | Oo |
| 08:11.55 | davidw | wow... go women's volleyball |
| 08:12.16 | jasta | romainguy: still, is this possibly a bug? |
| 08:12.34 | romainguy_ | 1. your activity should not die on back, check the logs |
| 08:12.42 | romainguy_ | 2. the emulator should not segfault on screen rotate |
| 08:12.52 | jasta | well ok ;) |
| 08:12.52 | romainguy_ | I can definitely guarantee that these two bugs do not exist post M5 though :( |
| 08:13.03 | jasta | i will read the logcat, hang on |
| 08:13.20 | jasta | when i press back, all i see is: |
| 08:13.26 | jasta | D/ActivityManager( 523): Resuming: HistoryRecord{401fc378 {com.google.android.home/com.google.android.home.NewHome}} |
| 08:13.29 | jasta | I/ActivityManager( 523): Removing activity: Intent { action=android.intent.action.MAIN launchFlags=4 comp={org.devtcg.games.solitaire/org.devtcg.games.solitaire.game.Klondike} } |
| 08:13.55 | NiZoX | do you think next sdk will be the final release ? |
| 08:14.00 | jasta | when i run it again, icicle is null. |
| 08:14.05 | romainguy_ | I can't tell you NiZoX |
| 08:14.15 | romainguy_ | jasta: then something really bad happened |
| 08:14.25 | jasta | romainguy_: as i said, this app is quite trivial |
| 08:14.39 | jasta | the layout does utilize a couple of custom views, but they're not dabbling in anything too wild. |
| 08:15.04 | jasta | i recall checking "Immediately destroy activities" in the dev tools made this issue go away |
| 08:15.11 | jasta | by enforcing the behaviour that is accidentally caused otherwise |
| 08:15.35 | jasta | nope, that's not true either. still sends a null icicle |
| 08:15.42 | jasta | well that's cute. |
| 08:15.43 | NiZoX | HTC seems to be ready to bring out an android device.. |
| 08:16.13 | muthu | nice!! |
| 08:16.17 | muthu | solitaire, finally! |
| 08:16.32 | jasta | muthu: like i said, lots of rough edges. i only mention it now because the game logic is finally complete. |
| 08:16.41 | jasta | i did just commit a few small changes that fix the empty stacks rendering wrong |
| 08:17.08 | jasta | muthu: also, i actually don't even like Klondike. so i'm more excited to implement Freecell next :) |
| 08:17.24 | muthu | cool |
| 08:17.25 | jasta | and of course some simple UI to control new games, undo, etc. |
| 08:17.31 | jasta | high scores maybe |
| 08:17.35 | muthu | you can sell a lot of games |
| 08:17.38 | jasta | just dabbling |
| 08:17.40 | muthu | when the store is ready ;) |
| 08:18.10 | jasta | isn't the point of android to break away from that all that disgraceful pandering? |
| 08:18.29 | jasta | like $10 games that took someone maybe a day or two to write |
| 08:18.47 | muthu | its not how long it took you to write |
| 08:19.22 | jasta | i certainly hope we are able to change mindsets like yours moving forward. |
| 08:19.30 | muthu | hehe |
| 08:19.35 | muthu | hoho |
| 08:19.36 | muthu | haha |
| 08:20.00 | romainguy_ | jasta: the point of android is not to make people stop selling apps :) |
| 08:20.03 | jasta | romainguy_: hmm, well, it's a little hard to believe that this is simply just a bug wherein onFreeze is rendered useless. |
| 08:20.20 | jasta | anything more i can try? |
| 08:20.30 | jasta | romainguy_: that isn't what i said. |
| 08:20.32 | romainguy_ | well if your emulator segaults on screen rotate, no |
| 08:21.07 | jasta | sigh. |
| 08:21.10 | jasta | piece of crap ;) |
| 08:21.32 | jasta | i will save game state to a flat file then, i suppose. |
| 08:22.18 | jasta | muthu: i am hoping there will be enough hobbyist/tinker types that can flood the community with useful little applications for free, and with source code included. |
| 08:22.30 | muthu | oh yeah |
| 08:22.32 | muthu | for sure |
| 08:22.32 | jasta | so that attempts to sell solitaire games, and ssh clients, etc will fail miserably. |
| 08:22.39 | muthu | not really |
| 08:23.03 | muthu | it can coexist |
| 08:23.09 | jasta | i hope android to have an ecosystem much closer to Linux, where trivial applications have absolutely no marketability. |
| 08:23.39 | muthu | that would happen.. |
| 08:23.46 | jasta | and i attribute that largely to the fact that if it was easy to do, some hobbyist geek would have already done it a long time ago. |
| 08:23.49 | muthu | the users would have a lot of options |
| 08:24.26 | muthu | before the free thing arrives.. whover gets on the appstore |
| 08:24.43 | jasta | Android being such a powerful, free dev environment lends itself well to fostering such a community. |
| 08:25.18 | jasta | Generally appealing to hobbyists, that is. |
| 08:25.28 | muthu | agree |
| 08:25.54 | muthu | android is the "new php" for mobile |
| 08:26.13 | jasta | It's very difficult to argue that if such a community exists, trivial non-free apps will still have a place. They simply won't. |
| 08:26.28 | romainguy_ | not necessarily |
| 08:26.42 | jasta | Are you kidding? You're comparing Android to PHP? |
| 08:26.42 | davidw | ew |
| 08:26.51 | davidw | don't compare android to PHP! |
| 08:26.51 | romainguy_ | if the paying versions bring more quality |
| 08:26.55 | jasta | PHP is engineering rot. It wasn't designed, it just congealed in a gutter somewhere. |
| 08:27.11 | romainguy_ | Linux has tons of free simple apps... but tons of *crappy* free simple apps |
| 08:27.22 | jasta | romainguy_: That would make it non-trivial, by definition. |
| 08:27.26 | romainguy_ | no |
| 08:27.45 | romainguy_ | many trivial apps with crappy UIs would still be trivial with an elegant UI |
| 08:27.55 | muthu | davidw: isn't it easy to write android apps? |
| 08:27.57 | romainguy_ | and I'd happily pay a couple of bucks for something that doesn't make my eyes bleed :) |
| 08:28.16 | jasta | romainguy_: Of course, the open source app could just rip off the UI like we've always done :) |
| 08:28.27 | romainguy_ | if only... |
| 08:28.37 | davidw | or you could try the Sicily business model: pay me a couple bucks or I'll make your eyes bleed |
| 08:29.29 | jasta | romainguy_: I doubt very much that such a reality will exist, however. |
| 08:29.52 | jasta | Where there will be $10 solitaire games coexisting with free, open source ones. |
| 08:30.02 | romainguy_ | I'm not talking about $10 |
| 08:30.04 | jasta | I just don't see it as a possibility, given the nature of both models. |
| 08:30.06 | romainguy_ | I'm talking about $1.99 |
| 08:30.12 | romainguy_ | I'd be really sad if Android ended up like Linux, with mostly crappy UIs |
| 08:30.15 | jasta | And currently, the mobile industry has $10 solitaire games. *CRAPPY* ones, at that. |
| 08:30.29 | jasta | This is just a small example. The market is flooded with terrible non-free apps. |
| 08:30.34 | jasta | Because it's a cheap, easy way to make money. |
| 08:30.46 | jasta | I don't think that model will translate well to Android. |
| 08:30.46 | muthu | 0.99 |
| 08:30.48 | romainguy_ | well the iPhone is showing that people are selling trivial apps with good UIs for 1 or 2 dollars |
| 08:31.01 | jasta | Simply because Android can attract hobbyists, and hobbyists can flood the market with plenty of crappy free versions :) |
| 08:31.25 | romainguy_ | I'm not saying that non-free apps are not crappy |
| 08:31.30 | jasta | romainguy_: The key difference is community, as I said before. It is the sorts of folks attracted to the platform that make all the difference. |
| 08:31.38 | romainguy_ | I'm saying that from my experience free apps are rarely not crappy :)) |
| 08:31.50 | jasta | The iPhone doesn't have them. Windows Mobile doesn't have them. Symbian doesn't have them. No mobile platform has htem. |
| 08:31.55 | romainguy_ | jasta: ok then I don't want a Linux-like community :)) |
| 08:31.58 | jasta | The open source community simply has not "Gone There". |
| 08:32.11 | jasta | I believe that they will come here, to Android. |
| 08:32.23 | romainguy_ | (in the sense of a community that produces tons of ugly, hard to use apps) |
| 08:33.11 | jasta | Do realize that I am talking about truly the most bottom-rung, disgraceful displays of capitalism that you can find. That is the sort of scum that lurks around the current mobile industry. |
| 08:33.23 | jasta | For fucks sake I cannot find a single free game worth playing for my phone. |
| 08:33.41 | jasta | Or a free SSH client, or VNC, or IRC, or messaging app. |
| 08:33.43 | jasta | Nothing. |
| 08:33.59 | jasta | Even the non-free ones are pathetic. As little work as could be put into the app is where the developer stopped. |
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| 08:34.42 | muthu | so you have a lot of market to tap into |
| 08:34.49 | jasta | Market to destroy, muthu. |
| 08:34.52 | jasta | Not tap into. |
| 08:34.54 | davidw | I think the fact that android has attracted a fair number of people like me and jasta is a good indication of where the community may go |
| 08:34.57 | davidw | or one portion of it |
| 08:35.23 | muthu | android will rule the mobile world |
| 08:35.42 | jasta | davidw captured what I was trying to say. It's all about who is there that will change the community, the market, everything. |
| 08:35.56 | jasta | And so far, "my" type has avoided the mobile arena. Android is an entry point. |
| 08:35.59 | jasta | Or so I hope. |
| 08:36.08 | davidw | jasta, there is some open source in j2me |
| 08:36.14 | davidw | not tons, but it does exist |
| 08:36.22 | jasta | oh sure, there's some everywhere. Even Windows Mobile has some open source stuff. |
| 08:36.25 | muthu | but nothing is as easy as android |
| 08:36.36 | jasta | But it's a very small community. It's a throwback to 1985, not 2008. |
| 08:36.38 | davidw | muthu, j2me's not that hard - it's just limited |
| 08:36.47 | muthu | what java did to enterprise |
| 08:36.51 | muthu | android will do for mobile |
| 08:37.07 | davidw | mmmmmm |
| 08:37.12 | davidw | what's that mean? |
| 08:37.17 | jasta | davidw: Yeah, I don't know what the hell he's talking about. |
| 08:37.33 | muthu | its already happening |
| 08:38.01 | jasta | muthu reminds me of the father character in Little Miss Sunshine. |
| 08:38.31 | muthu | jasta: we are saying the same thing |
| 08:38.37 | muthu | in our own ways of course! |
| 08:38.40 | jasta | I assure you muthu, we never say the same thing. |
| 08:38.46 | muthu | lol |
| 08:38.50 | jasta | I almost categorically disagree with you. |
| 08:38.53 | muthu | haha |
| 08:39.23 | muthu | jasta is the lifeline of this channel :) |
| 08:40.43 | jasta | davidw: to your comment about J2ME though, the open source communities found in other mobile spaces (like windows mobile, j2me, etc) remind me of the open source community you find on Windows itself. |
| 08:41.06 | jasta | it's fledgling, weak. it mostly consists of univerity types who have only passing interest in software development anyway. |
| 08:41.33 | jasta | it takes forever for even simple projects to get ported because there's just no one that cares to do so. whereas those same projects flourish on other platforms, namely Linux. |
| 08:42.18 | jasta | Wireshark exists on Windows these days, but I have not yet met a Windows sysadmin or networking guy that had even heard of it. |
| 08:42.47 | muthu | so what's your prediction? |
| 08:42.50 | jasta | Yet I can't think of a single user of any major UNIX with even a passing interest in networking that hasn't at least heard of it. |
| 08:43.45 | muthu | yesterday went to a pub with a city view |
| 08:43.45 | muthu | wonderful |
| 08:43.45 | muthu | they have this thing called 'fire and ice' |
| 08:43.48 | jasta | muthu: My prediction is that, as romain fears, the open source community will move in and flood the "market" with quite a lot of crummy open source apps, and as it's always done, several stand-out gems that speak volumes about what the community is capable of. |
| 08:44.02 | jasta | rendering the "low-hanging fruit" that has been so attractive to commercial developers completely unattainable. |
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| 08:44.22 | jasta | only significant, non-trivial apps which the open source community either ignores, or fails to do well, will be possible in the market. |
| 08:44.43 | jasta | while the former will still exist, surely, it will not be such an easy game to play as it has been in the past. |
| 08:44.46 | jasta | that's my prediction. |
| 08:45.08 | muthu | can you say that in a few words? |
| 08:45.33 | jasta | sure, sacrificing the nuance of what i'm trying to sya. but why would i? |
| 08:45.45 | jasta | so you can quote me? i think not. |
| 08:45.54 | muthu | lol |
| 08:46.04 | muthu | jasta: have you had this fire and ice |
| 08:46.15 | muthu | a green chilly is sliced and dropped in vodka |
| 08:47.16 | jasta | that sounds gross. i avoid vodka anyway. |
| 08:47.27 | muthu | its a real spice drink |
| 08:47.33 | jasta | it's a miserable excuse for liquor. |
| 08:47.59 | jasta | even the Russians, who invented it, regard it as cheap and common. |
| 08:48.13 | muthu | it was meant to be cheap and common |
| 08:48.27 | jasta | yeah, exactly. and it's gross as a result. |
| 08:48.27 | jasta | ;) |
| 08:48.42 | muthu | haha |
| 08:48.53 | muthu | i know you are a jameson guy |
| 08:48.59 | jasta | actually, i'm not. |
| 08:49.12 | muthu | so what you drink? |
| 08:49.29 | jasta | my favorite Irish whiskey is Bushmills, distilled in Northern Ireland. |
| 08:49.57 | jasta | but I also like Scotch. I typically drink Glenlivet. |
| 08:50.14 | jasta | but it certainly isn't the best, just the best that i can afford ;) |
| 08:50.38 | muthu | is the Glen series the best? |
| 08:51.00 | jasta | huh? |
| 08:51.33 | jasta | What Glen series? |
| 08:52.54 | jasta | There are lots of towns in Scotland that start with Glen. It's a geographic feature. |
| 08:53.11 | muthu | oh.. its not the same brand? |
| 08:53.24 | jasta | The names of Scotch whiskies (and Irish whiskeys too sometimes) usually come from the small town that invented it. |
| 08:53.40 | jasta | And since lots of towns start with Glen in Scotland, there appears to be a pattern there where there isn't one. |
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| 08:54.31 | muthu | ok |
| 08:54.44 | muthu | i thought it was from the same manufacturer |
| 08:55.30 | jasta | Whiskey is a deep and nuanced topic. ;) |
| 08:55.47 | muthu | and you are the whiskey guru ;) |
| 08:56.07 | jasta | I hope to get my first hand lesson next month when I suspect I will be drunk under the table by some real Irishmen :) |
| 08:56.28 | muthu | oh yeah |
| 08:56.41 | muthu | how many days? |
| 08:56.46 | jasta | I leave on the 4th |
| 08:56.51 | jasta | Be there 16 days |
| 08:56.56 | muthu | perfect |
| 08:57.17 | jasta | I have a pretty ambitious schedule though. Traveling around the coast of the entire island. Including Northern Ireland because my friends wnat to go there (I do not). |
| 08:57.18 | muthu | alone? |
| 08:57.32 | jasta | I say the English can kiss my ass. |
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| 09:17.34 | jasta | romainguy__: hey, this is cute. onFreeze is never called. |
| 09:17.46 | romainguy__ | in what case? |
| 09:18.05 | jasta | in my simple game example. |
| 09:18.14 | romainguy__ | how do you attempt to get onFreeze called? |
| 09:18.21 | jasta | @Override |
| 09:18.27 | jasta | protected void onFreeze(...) { |
| 09:18.28 | romainguy__ | that's not what I meant |
| 09:18.34 | jasta | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:18.40 | romainguy__ | how do you use the system to cause onFreeze to be called? |
| 09:18.41 | jasta | oh, I just press back. |
| 09:18.57 | romainguy__ | is that supposed to call onFreeze? |
| 09:19.06 | romainguy__ | I thoguht you'd just get onPause |
| 09:19.13 | jasta | well i'm not sure. |
| 09:19.25 | romainguy__ | rotating the screen will call onFreeze for sure |
| 09:19.43 | romainguy__ | launching a bunch of other apps to make the system run out of memory and freeze your app will do the same |
| 09:19.48 | jasta | I guess you might be right. It calls it when you press home, but not back. |
| 09:19.51 | jasta | *confused* |
| 09:19.52 | romainguy__ | but normal usage should not provoke onFreeze to be called |
| 09:21.37 | jasta | i see. well, would simply pressing the back button going back to the home screen cause onDestroy? |
| 09:21.42 | jasta | because that's what i'm seeing... |
| 09:21.50 | jasta | no onFreeze, but a call to onDestroy. |
| 09:22.01 | jasta | i wonder if this is a filed bug or something |
| 09:22.56 | romainguy__ | well your description doesn't match what I can see on our current SDKs |
| 09:23.05 | romainguy__ | (onFreeze is not even called onFreeze anymore :)) |
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| 09:23.38 | jasta | screw it, i'll just use onStop and save a Bundle to disk |
| 09:23.48 | jasta | and then update this code later to use the Bundle properly |
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| 10:34.44 | tomgibara | jasta: IIRC onFreeze is not a 'lifecycle' method, it is only called 'at some point' before the system forcibly kills your app (and even then it may not be called if resources don't permit it) |
| 10:35.17 | jasta | it seems to just be broken entirely |
| 10:35.31 | tomgibara | backing out of your app doesn't count either, when the application finishes naturally it isn't called |
| 10:35.32 | jasta | it doesn't call on a typical instance where the app is being destroyed |
| 10:35.37 | jasta | even though it should not be |
| 10:35.53 | tomgibara | how are you ensuring that the app is being destroyed? |
| 10:35.57 | jasta | even Romain said that it does not behave this way in the new version. |
| 10:36.07 | jasta | i simply press the back button after launching the initial activity. |
| 10:36.13 | jasta | this destroys the activity, without calling onFreeze. |
| 10:36.19 | tomgibara | That won't trigger it |
| 10:36.34 | jasta | I am telling you that it is. Without a doubt. |
| 10:37.17 | tomgibara | What I'm saying is that I haven't seen you describe a situation where I would expect onFreeze to be called. |
| 10:37.20 | jasta | you can check that code that does it if you wish. |
| 10:37.42 | jasta | tomgibara: then how am i expected to save my applications state? |
| 10:37.57 | tomgibara | I think you do that 'manually' |
| 10:37.59 | jasta | i would not expect the user simply pressing back after opening the application to destroy it and all state. |
| 10:38.13 | tomgibara | Here's how I tested for onFreeze for Moseycode: |
| 10:38.19 | tric | jasta: onPause and not onFreeze |
| 10:38.20 | jasta | in fact, it makes no sense tod o this from a resource utilization standpoint. if the system is not low on resources, why would it want to go nuking my apps? |
| 10:38.45 | tomgibara | I went to the settings and specified that only one app should run at any given time (can't recall the name of the settings) |
| 10:38.56 | jasta | tomgibara: yeah i fiddled with that setting as well |
| 10:39.18 | tomgibara | Then by forcing apps (say by receiving a call) I could check that my onFreeze persistence worked |
| 10:39.47 | jasta | tomgibara: here's the usage case i'm referring to: |
| 10:39.56 | tomgibara | I tested like that, because it seemed like a good use case. |
| 10:40.01 | jasta | user opens solitaire, begins playing game, presses back. returns to solitaire later. |
| 10:40.14 | tomgibara | yes, onFreeze is no good for that |
| 10:40.15 | jasta | when they press back initially, the activity is fully destroyed, without ever calling onFreeze. |
| 10:40.25 | tomgibara | onFreeze won't be |
| 10:40.37 | tric | jasta: iirc onPause should be called in that case. there is a nice googleIO talk about those issues |
| 10:40.53 | jasta | so what's the point here? a) why would the platform behave this way, and b) why should i need persistent storage to preserve state that i dont care if it persists across reboots? |
| 10:40.57 | tomgibara | because, when you close the Activity, it's done, finished - the system knows it won't evet have to resurrect it. |
| 10:41.05 | tomgibara | *ever |
| 10:41.12 | jasta | tomgibara: There's no such thing as close. Look at the docs: |
| 10:41.46 | tomgibara | Okay, I'm talking losely, I mean "finishes it and removes it from the stack of Activities" |
| 10:41.53 | tomgibara | *loosely |
| 10:41.53 | jasta | Note this implies that the user pressing BACK from your activity does not mean "cancel" -- it means to leave the activity with its current contents saved away. |
| 10:41.58 | jasta | that's from the docs. |
| 10:42.24 | jasta | so, if the user presses back the activity should behave much the same as if they press home. |
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| 10:42.34 | jasta | in that they're just saying they might come back to it later |
| 10:42.36 | jasta | and quite probably would |
| 10:43.11 | jasta | and yet, saving persistently on disk in onPause would be really inefficient when i don't even care to be persistent in this way |
| 10:43.16 | tomgibara | I acknowledge that my mental model could be quite wrong. |
| 10:43.32 | jasta | anyway, it's too late to ponder over this |
| 10:43.34 | jasta | i'm gonna go sleep :) |
| 10:43.36 | tomgibara | Pressing home should bring up the home activity obscuring your activity |
| 10:44.01 | tomgibara | It doesn't mean that the activity will be destroyed in my understanding. |
| 10:44.02 | tomgibara | gn |
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| 10:44.18 | jasta | tomgibara: It won't, but if they press Back, the effect is the same if they launched from the home screen. |
| 10:44.25 | jasta | The home screen will simply reappear, just as if they hit Home |
| 10:44.31 | jasta | except that my app now gets destroyed. that's stupid. |
| 10:44.41 | tomgibara | I would expect it to be destroyed |
| 10:44.48 | jasta | there should not be a functional difference between navigating back with Back or navigating back with Home. |
| 10:44.55 | tomgibara | because by default back finishes the activity |
| 10:44.59 | jasta | The user won't see a significant difference, I assur eyou. |
| 10:45.08 | tomgibara | well, that's a different question! |
| 10:45.15 | tric | jasta: did you watch the googleio talks? they should help you to understand those lifecycles |
| 10:45.24 | jasta | They see either as just a way to navigate around. Back sometimes makes sense, Home sometimes makes sense. |
| 10:45.30 | jasta | tric: I was present, actually. |
| 10:45.39 | tric | jasta: if your activity is not ontop you cannot be sure it doesnt get destroyed. |
| 10:45.41 | tomgibara | Our job is to make sure the user isn't exposed to the difference when we don't want them to be |
| 10:45.41 | jasta | My point is more that the way it does work is not the way it should work. |
| 10:46.12 | jasta | tomgibara: But they would have to be. The difference between an activity seamlessly persisting in memory and being nuked and stored persistently on disk will be noticed. |
| 10:46.25 | jasta | There is a performance impact, especially for apps with a lot of state to save. |
| 10:47.07 | tomgibara | I can definitely see your point, but I just think these issues will already have been thrashed to death within the Googleplex |
| 10:47.24 | tomgibara | I'd be interested to hear a justification |
| 10:47.50 | jasta | tomgibara: well, judging from Romain's comments earlier, the behaviour I am seeing was either unintentionally, or designed differently in later releases. |
| 10:47.59 | jasta | unintentional* |
| 10:48.57 | tomgibara | possibly, I look forward to some more "best practice" guidance then |
| 10:49.02 | tric | just one example to not code for android currently if its not for research or fun. |
| 10:49.26 | jasta | tomgibara: have you seen my solitaire game i'm building? :) |
| 10:49.38 | jasta | i wanted to explore these topics with a fun little project... |
| 10:49.43 | tomgibara | Not yet, when I have time I'll check it out of svn |
| 10:49.50 | jasta | i think im gonna finish it, make it a real functionla game. |
| 10:57.34 | jasta | ok, just committed some stuffs. time for bed. |
| 10:57.37 | jasta | 4am, yeesh |
| 10:57.49 | tomgibara | gn again |
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| 11:40.57 | anno^da_ | Is it right that I cant set android:password on the AutoCompleteTextView? |
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| 13:04.19 | muthu | http://developer.t-mobile.com/site/global/home/p_home.jsp |
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| 14:59.40 | Dougie187 | good morning everyone. |
| 15:05.54 | muthu | good evening |
| 15:09.34 | Dougie187 | hows it going muthu? |
| 15:09.48 | muthu | Dougie187: going great |
| 15:09.58 | Dougie187 | nice |
| 15:10.03 | muthu | working on a few stuff |
| 15:10.05 | Dougie187 | ADC1 R2 is over right? |
| 15:10.09 | muthu | yes |
| 15:10.20 | muthu | getting ready for 2 |
| 15:10.27 | Dougie187 | cool |
| 15:10.34 | Dougie187 | any idea when the results will be out? |
| 15:10.44 | muthu | will be soon |
| 15:10.54 | Dougie187 | well thats exciting |
| 15:11.29 | muthu | yeah, the next year is going to be crazy |
| 15:14.46 | muthu | the tabs continue to pique my curiosity |
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| 16:03.18 | yakischloba | morning |
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| 16:08.11 | anno^da_ | good evening guys :) |
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| 16:14.49 | anno^da_ | Oh I hate Gizmodo spreading every single faulty rumor :/ |
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| 16:25.44 | yakischloba | some of those 'news' sites need to grow up |
| 16:26.09 | yakischloba | they're just looking for hits, and to start trouble |
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| 16:40.14 | num1 | is this an official channel? |
| 16:42.05 | yakischloba | as close to one as there is, I believe. |
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| 18:44.14 | jasta | sigh |
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| 19:00.34 | yakischloba | jasta: ? |
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| 20:22.08 | anno^da_ | http://rafb.net/p/rLGa7Y24.html <- Whats wrong with that JSON parsing? It always worked but in that case I dont get the token. :/ Someone an idea? |
| 20:26.40 | anno^da_ | It works now it was a different error. The parsing was ok. :-) |
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| 21:13.06 | SanMehat | ahhh |
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| 22:21.24 | michaelnovakjr__ | howdy |
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| 23:37.02 | michaelnovakjr__ | sure is quiet today huh? |
| 23:37.29 | yakischloba | yeah really |
| 23:37.32 | yakischloba | has been quiet at nights too |
| 23:37.46 | yakischloba | the only time that i have to work on android, everyone leaves ;) |
| 23:37.57 | michaelnovakjr__ | :) |
| 23:44.10 | SanMehat | afternoon |
| 23:44.25 | michaelnovakjr__ | howdy |
| 23:44.40 | SanMehat | how goes? |
| 23:45.03 | michaelnovakjr__ | eh, not bad |
| 23:45.14 | michaelnovakjr__ | messing around with game programming on windows |
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| 23:59.03 | jasta | yawn |
| 23:59.46 | chomchom | go go jasta! Yeah, > motivation. |
| 23:59.54 | chomchom | I cast out tiredness |