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| 04:55.29 | WildCaterpillar | so no multitouch? is this a hardware limitation? |
| 04:55.35 | WildCaterpillar | (for the G1) |
| 04:55.40 | jasta | probably a patent issue more than anything |
| 04:57.00 | romainguy_ | that aside, multi-touch, at least on the iPhone, is quite overrated, imo |
| 04:57.12 | jasta | agreed |
| 04:57.18 | romainguy_ | the pinch zoom stuff seems really nice at first, but the more I used it, the more I disliked it |
| 04:57.36 | romainguy_ | it really requires two hands to work well for one thing |
| 04:57.43 | summatusmentis | I really like multi-touch touchpads on the macbooks |
| 04:58.59 | romainguy_ | <sigh> |
| 04:59.04 | romainguy_ | 478 pictures left to go through |
| 04:59.41 | ahaberlach | summatusmentis : Totally awesome on MacBooks. I don't like having to use two fingers on phones, though. |
| 04:59.47 | WildCaterpillar | well, i saw this guitar app for the iphone that was pretty neat....can play chords |
| 05:00.15 | WildCaterpillar | not possible if multitouch is not available....so is this a hardware limitation...or are we just waiting for someone to write an app to support it |
| 05:00.49 | jasta | WildCaterpillar: the hardware doesn't have it, and also as i said, they probably can't make it. |
| 05:00.53 | jasta | patent issues and all |
| 05:01.00 | summatusmentis | ahaberlach: well, if you're using a touchscreen phone with your fingers, you're probably holding it in one hand, and using it with the other |
| 05:01.20 | WildCaterpillar | i dont' understand that patent issues...its not like multitouch is new |
| 05:03.06 | romainguy_ | summatusmentis: not necessarily |
| 05:03.20 | romainguy_ | summatusmentis: I do use my G1 a lot with only one hand |
| 05:03.47 | snadge | i wont ask what you're doing with the other hand ;) |
| 05:07.25 | romainguy_ | gah |
| 05:07.38 | romainguy_ | I want a photos management tool that reads my mind |
| 05:08.21 | unix_infidel | jasta: it's not a multitouch screen? or the software isnt able to utilize it due to patents pending? |
| 05:08.30 | jasta | it's not a multitouch screen |
| 05:08.37 | jasta | ...possibly because of patent issues |
| 05:09.24 | unix_infidel | looks like the Touch HD doesnt do multitouch either. |
| 05:09.42 | jasta | i doubt very much that you'll find any phone with it other than the iPhone |
| 05:11.05 | unix_infidel | meh, if something gets written to inroduce that functionality by a 3rd party... |
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| 05:36.28 | gdsx | summatusmentis: most of the time I use my G1 with one hand. For instance, I was queuing up songs on Youtube while on a ride today |
| 05:36.38 | gdsx | would have sucked to have had to use two hands |
| 05:37.37 | summatusmentis | hmm... I suppose I use my centro with one hand most of the time (except when typing0 |
| 05:41.40 | unix_remote | there isnt a soft keyboard on the g1 (yet) is there? |
| 05:42.42 | romainguy_ | no soft keyboard in Android 1.0 |
| 05:42.54 | umdk1d3 | well kinda |
| 05:43.05 | umdk1d3 | longpress gives you accent characters |
| 05:43.27 | romainguy_ | lol |
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| 05:53.02 | jasta | i just had a really cool idea for Five |
| 05:53.25 | jasta | when the cache manager is purging entries to make room for new content it should truncate the old cached files instead of delete them |
| 05:53.27 | summatusmentis | I wish there'd be more rumors of upcoming Android phones :) |
| 05:53.36 | jasta | so next time they come up to play, Five will have the first 500k or so to start playback instnatly |
| 05:59.44 | unix_remote | I'm convinced you wont see another Android Phone till January at the earliest. |
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| 06:37.26 | snadge | im going to buy a G1 .. even though its probably a piece of crap ;) |
| 06:37.33 | snadge | and i probably wont be able to get it working here in australia |
| 06:37.43 | muthu | snadge: where you buy? |
| 06:37.54 | snadge | i will be in the usa in november.. so i dont know |
| 06:38.03 | snadge | wheres the easiest place to buy one .. without a contract and unlocked? |
| 06:38.20 | muthu | no idea.. myself searching |
| 06:38.26 | muthu | prolly ebay |
| 06:38.36 | snadge | i know t-mobile sells them with or without contract |
| 06:38.55 | snadge | and they have a policy where you can unlock any phone with them after 30 days.. as long as the account is up to date |
| 06:39.13 | muthu | cool |
| 06:39.25 | snadge | im pretty sure you should be able to pay a premium to get one unlocked.. it seems daft to not offer that |
| 06:39.36 | snadge | when you could just buy a phone on contract, wait 30 days and unlock it anyway |
| 06:39.48 | muthu | right, then it has to work with local carriers |
| 06:40.03 | snadge | no problem in aus.. we have 3g on one of those frequencies |
| 06:40.13 | muthu | grea |
| 06:40.14 | muthu | t |
| 06:40.18 | snadge | not 850.. the other one.. 1700 or whatever it is |
| 06:40.22 | snadge | or 2100 .. i forget ;) |
| 06:40.33 | muthu | rite.. not sure if it can fallback to 2g |
| 06:40.56 | snadge | 2g is on 1800/1900 or whatever.. isnt that mostly standard all around the world? |
| 06:41.17 | snadge | and i dont really care about that anyway to be honest.. 3g is covered in all capital cities, and i dont intend to go bush with my google phone |
| 06:42.21 | muthu | rite.. makes sense |
| 06:43.50 | snadge | its unfortunate really.. out bush, telstra (now a privately owned company that used to be the property of the commonwealth of australia) |
| 06:44.11 | snadge | dont get me started about government assets being sold off to private companies and then being royally screwed over ;) |
| 06:44.47 | snadge | its almost as bad as this "financial crisis" which just makes me want to stab fraudulent wall street types in the eyesocket |
| 06:45.14 | snadge | instead of talking about the bailout.. we should be talking about how we're going to make those responsible suffer, and pay for it |
| 06:45.55 | snadge | and make their great great grandchildren pay for it too |
| 06:46.19 | snadge | and they should have physical harm inflicted upon them ;) |
| 06:47.00 | muthu | bailout is required |
| 06:47.18 | snadge | required for whom? |
| 06:47.46 | snadge | the american people? the citizens of this world? pfft.. you're so naive.. i've got a bridge for sale ;) |
| 06:47.57 | muthu | haha |
| 06:48.08 | muthu | required for world economy |
| 06:48.22 | muthu | its not just US economy |
| 06:48.27 | snadge | the world economy would recover |
| 06:48.43 | snadge | when something collapses.. what do you do.. you go, oh well.. lets rebuild again |
| 06:49.14 | snadge | why prop up a failed system.. why not create a new one thats fair for everybody.. i know, thats crazy hippy talk and it will never happen |
| 06:50.09 | snadge | there will come a point where ordinary people who are struggling.. will not see the benefit of giving what little they have left, to support a system that has failed |
| 06:50.54 | snadge | and there will be civil unrest.. i cant wait, sign me up ;) |
| 06:52.00 | muthu | yeah, long time we saw some civil war ;) |
| 06:52.50 | umdk1d3 | buys bridge from snadge |
| 06:53.27 | snadge | the way i see it.. the only people who say "we need this bailout really bad or else bad things will happen" |
| 06:53.44 | snadge | are all crooks and liars... aka politicians |
| 06:53.51 | snadge | and people who have vested interest (ie, warren buffet) |
| 06:53.55 | summatusmentis | or ignorant americans |
| 06:53.56 | umdk1d3 | mmm nope, its the bankers saying that |
| 06:54.03 | umdk1d3 | politicians are just following |
| 06:54.17 | umdk1d3 | sad thing is that this /wont/ solve the credit issues |
| 06:54.36 | snadge | what it does do, is pass the mess onto obama to clean up |
| 06:54.57 | snadge | and its going to be even messier .. but at least george wont be doing it, because he is absolutely useless |
| 06:55.00 | umdk1d3 | to be honest, the president cant "fix things" obama or otherwise |
| 06:55.16 | snadge | nope.. but he can remove all the republicans from the white house |
| 06:55.24 | snadge | and replace them with democrats who have different ideas |
| 06:55.40 | umdk1d3 | umm last time i checked everyone pretty much voted for the bailout--it wasnt partisan |
| 06:56.04 | snadge | thats right.. but in general, its the dems who favour increased regulation |
| 06:56.31 | snadge | its the dems who see the problems with the "free market" |
| 06:56.41 | snadge | which the republicans think will fix anything |
| 06:57.07 | snadge | great work george w ;) "the fundamentals of our economy are strong" ... "uhuh.. yep" |
| 06:57.08 | umdk1d3 | and this is why we need to get rid of the federal reserve |
| 06:57.39 | snadge | absolutely.. but how? how do we get main street |
| 06:57.47 | umdk1d3 | (elect ron paul ;) |
| 06:58.03 | snadge | obviously that wont work.. hes popular on the internets |
| 06:58.10 | snadge | but obama kicked his ass on the popularity front |
| 06:58.38 | umdk1d3 | kicks america for following popularity like their watching president idol or something |
| 06:58.44 | snadge | i actually have a sneaking suspicion.. that obama will take on the feds |
| 06:59.09 | snadge | but he is not saying anything about it.. because it would ruin his chances of becoming president |
| 06:59.40 | snadge | its much easier to be like saddam hussein.. pretend to be friendly, then turn on your "friends" when you dont need them anymore |
| 07:00.57 | snadge | obama is not stupid.. he knows what the federal reserve is |
| 07:01.07 | snadge | and i know that he knows that its wrong |
| 07:03.24 | snadge | that might sound ridiculous.. it certainly would be if i was talking about mccain |
| 07:07.49 | snadge | did everyone know that obama was a member of the CFR? (the same people who own the federal reserve) |
| 07:08.29 | snadge | so people are saying that means its 99.99% likely he will do nothing to disbandon the federal reserve.. (which i might point out is unconstitutional and hence illegal) :P |
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| 07:12.09 | muthu | obama has a tough task |
| 07:12.12 | muthu | poor guy |
| 07:12.40 | muthu | you don't want to be president when the economy at its worst |
| 07:12.54 | muthu | ever.. since 1930's |
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| 07:29.40 | snadge | obama is going to love it .. theres no possible way that he could possibly do worse than george bush |
| 07:30.02 | snadge | and this is going to give him a chance to shine |
| 07:30.15 | muthu_ | hmm |
| 07:30.39 | snadge | he is a smart man.. and knows when to get advice and how to interpret it etc |
| 07:30.49 | snadge | george bush is basically incompetant in comparison |
| 07:31.00 | snadge | which is good when you want to pull a swift one over your entire population |
| 07:31.00 | muthu | yeah, but the crisis is major |
| 07:31.27 | snadge | like invade a sovereign nation and plunder its resources under the guise of "fighting terrorism" |
| 07:31.39 | muthu | it might not be bush |
| 07:31.41 | snadge | i feel sorry for smart people in america, who are lumped in with all the rest of the "stupid americans" ;) |
| 07:31.47 | muthu | may be he followed cheney |
| 07:32.01 | muthu | bush seems to be a nice guy |
| 07:32.21 | snadge | its just a shame hes a dumb ass who shouldn't have been elected to run arguably the most powerful nation on earth |
| 07:32.22 | muthu | my guess is bad influence around him |
| 07:32.46 | snadge | and cheney did very well out of iraq |
| 07:32.59 | muthu | yup |
| 07:33.09 | snadge | which is why its not just important to have someone smart as second in charge.. but also the president needs to be smart, so he can realise if the vice president if full of sh*t or not |
| 07:33.28 | muthu | no argument there |
| 07:33.37 | muthu | your president must be smart! |
| 07:33.48 | snadge | i think bush failed on that one.. and mccain fails in the sense that palin isnt exactly someone you really want to be bouncing ideas off |
| 07:34.10 | muthu | he picked palin to garner votes |
| 07:34.14 | snadge | and his own ideas arn't really that brilliant either .. but then it doesnt matter, because for the most part, republicans are stupid |
| 07:34.14 | muthu | not to be bouncing ideas |
| 07:34.26 | snadge | and they will vote for the stupidest candidate.. since it makes them feel better or something |
| 07:34.32 | snadge | even though that has ruined the country ;) |
| 07:34.57 | umdk1d3 | GAH im in some sort of infinite loop, something keeps trying to start, gets an error, then tries again about 3 seconds later |
| 07:35.00 | umdk1d3 | 10-06 01:33:30.314: ERROR/dalvikvm(6580): pthread_setspecific failed, err=22 |
| 07:35.11 | snadge | maybe the democrats should start up a "republicans are stupid" campaign |
| 07:35.17 | umdk1d3 | logcat isnt showing anything helpful about /what/ is trying to start |
| 07:35.33 | muthu | snadge: the election is over.. obama wins |
| 07:35.38 | snadge | and point out how on average, republican voters have statistically significant less intelligence |
| 07:35.49 | snadge | hehe |
| 07:35.55 | umdk1d3 | snadge: your face has statistically significant less intelligence |
| 07:35.57 | umdk1d3 | runs :P |
| 07:36.06 | muthu | lol |
| 07:36.24 | snadge | they could run an ad "do you want smart people, or dumb people to run the country?" |
| 07:36.30 | snadge | lol |
| 07:36.36 | muthu | dumb will win.. hehe |
| 07:36.41 | umdk1d3 | sigh |
| 07:36.42 | snadge | "look what a dumb president has done in 8 years, to our economy" ;) |
| 07:36.54 | muthu | the economy is not entirely bush fault |
| 07:36.59 | umdk1d3 | </politics> ive got an android problem :P |
| 07:37.10 | muthu | umdk1d3: what are you running? |
| 07:37.11 | *** join/#android p0g0_ (n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0) |
| 07:37.25 | umdk1d3 | i have no clue lol, its just sitting here dying with that err=22 |
| 07:37.43 | umdk1d3 | it might be debugger related |
| 07:37.44 | muthu | hmm |
| 07:38.10 | umdk1d3 | there isnt any app-specific information showing up though--it just keeps going through the >> androidruntime start << thing |
| 07:38.19 | umdk1d3 | and then that pthread error |
| 07:38.33 | umdk1d3 | im wondering if there is something deeper i can force a dump on |
| 07:38.50 | muthu | its your app causing it right? |
| 07:39.06 | umdk1d3 | i honestly have no clue, there is a pileton of apps on this thing |
| 07:40.16 | muthu | umdk1d3: you have any example of a custom view, with a cursor adapter? |
| 07:40.20 | umdk1d3 | aha i think i found its process group |
| 07:40.39 | umdk1d3 | SimpleCursorAdapter will take a view right? |
| 07:40.58 | muthu | prolly, just want to see an example if available |
| 07:41.27 | umdk1d3 | NotePad/src/com/example/android/notepad/NotesList.java |
| 07:41.33 | muthu | oooh |
| 07:41.35 | umdk1d3 | new SimpleCursorAdapter(this, R.layout.noteslist_item |
| 07:41.45 | muthu | thx.. will check it out |
| 07:41.52 | umdk1d3 | grep is mah friend ^.^ |
| 07:42.12 | muthu | grep rules |
| 07:42.16 | muthu | cntl shft F |
| 07:42.42 | umdk1d3 | hmm does adb help give groupid info out? |
| 07:42.53 | umdk1d3 | stops chatting and jus tlooks |
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| 07:50.47 | cutmasta | mornin all |
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| 08:17.08 | umdk1d3 | hmm anyone played with detecting double-taps? |
| 08:17.23 | umdk1d3 | its possible, but im wondering if anyone has the "right way" of doing it figured out |
| 08:17.45 | muthu | haven't tried |
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| 08:27.55 | helloddp | I want to make my dopod 699 to android system, is workable? |
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| 08:34.42 | helloddp | ? |
| 08:40.25 | muthu | is the locale information available for android? |
| 08:40.42 | muthu | to check on user's language? |
| 08:50.02 | tric | what you need that for? |
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| 13:51.28 | umdk1d3 | prepares to write piles of blog posts |
| 14:02.45 | tethridge | umdk1d3, on what? |
| 14:02.55 | zhobbs | umdk1d3: ever try sleeping?! |
| 14:05.41 | tethridge | he can sleep when he's dead. :) |
| 14:08.22 | muthu | plus and umdk1d3 - they are droids ;) |
| 14:09.18 | zer0her0 | these aren't the droids you're looking for |
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| 14:25.38 | plusminus_ | I took a break from Android yesterday, for Sacred 2 :/ |
| 14:26.50 | zhobbs | I need a vacation in November or something.... |
| 14:28.05 | muthu | oh no |
| 14:28.37 | plusminus_ | zhobbs: ^^ we probably all need one |
| 14:29.20 | zhobbs | yeah, with helloandroid, the adc, and now tunewiki....my life has been all android for a year |
| 14:33.25 | jasta | zhobbs: thats funny you should say that... |
| 14:33.31 | jasta | i was just laying in bed 10 minutes thinking about that |
| 14:33.41 | jasta | 10 minutes ago* |
| 14:33.56 | jasta | that since November of last year i've been consumed by this thing |
| 14:34.11 | muthu | android has changed our lives |
| 14:35.36 | Disconnect | hesitates to draw the obvious apple comparison..... |
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| 14:38.07 | summatusmentis | Disconnect: do it! |
| 14:38.12 | Disconnect | uhoh. admins are after me. :) |
| 14:38.43 | wastrel__ | helloandroid |
| 14:38.48 | wastrel__ | hrm something happened to my nickname |
| 14:38.57 | Disconnect | prolly splits/joins |
| 14:41.12 | Disconnect | so has anyone managed (or even tried) to get a shell on a physical device? (without magic vendor tools the rest of us don't have :) ..) |
| 14:42.02 | muthu | i haven't manged to get a device.. |
| 14:43.15 | zhobbs | what's the difference between posting a Runnable and a Thread to a Handler? |
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| 14:43.59 | muthu | there's a post(runnable) |
| 14:44.23 | tomgibara | zhobbs: what do you mean posting a Thread? |
| 14:44.58 | zhobbs | handler.post(new Thread() { public void run() { ... } ); vs handler.post(new Runnable() { public void run() { ... } ); |
| 14:45.59 | jasta | i'd have to say it's that handler.post can't take a Thread :) |
| 14:46.05 | tomgibara | me too :) |
| 14:46.08 | jasta | so we don't know wth you're tlaking about |
| 14:46.37 | muthu | thread is a runnable |
| 14:46.44 | zhobbs | hehe...Thread implements Runnable...anyways, yeah, it's a bad idea |
| 14:46.57 | muthu | its all the same |
| 14:47.03 | plusminus_ | Thread is probably more overhead |
| 14:47.12 | jasta | zhobbs: thread implementing runnable doesn't mean it is a runnable. |
| 14:47.19 | plusminus_ | (a bit) |
| 14:47.29 | muthu | jasta: WHAT? |
| 14:47.37 | tomgibara | zhobbs: I'd forgotten it was legal type wise! |
| 14:47.39 | jasta | i mean they are not interchangable ideas. |
| 14:47.51 | tomgibara | It's an unfortunate legacy of the java 1.0 library design |
| 14:47.52 | jasta | a runnable is just java's form of code enclosure |
| 14:47.54 | jasta | a thread is not. |
| 14:47.59 | zhobbs | it caused an Activity to leak when I passed in a Thread, changed it to Runnable and the Activity doesn't leak anymore |
| 14:49.21 | pjv | any of you have any good reading material on threads in Java in general? any must-reads? with all this UI stuff you get to deal with them quite easily |
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| 15:00.59 | umdk1d3 | tethridge: for one, magic auto-paging lists that "grow" to grab the next page of results when you hit the bottom |
| 15:01.11 | umdk1d3 | its not too hard, but still cool to write |
| 15:01.18 | tethridge | that is nice |
| 15:01.26 | zhobbs | umdk1d3: cool, that's one on my todo list |
| 15:02.10 | umdk1d3 | its not too hard, just override onscrolllistener and addFooterView if you want a nice spinning thing down there |
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| 15:12.36 | morrildl | Disconnect: physical devices can run shells all right, but the environment is locked down quite a bit more than the emulator |
| 15:13.08 | morrildl | Disconnect: for instance, there's no 'su', and the security permissions prevent you from doing much more with the shell than looking at the SD card |
| 15:13.12 | Disconnect | using the unsupported JNI or is there an easier method? |
| 15:13.36 | Disconnect | its field-upgradable, root access is not a difficult problem :) |
| 15:14.15 | morrildl | Disconnect: true, but at that point you have far more than shell access and your question is moot. I'm just answering it as you asked it :) |
| 15:14.26 | Disconnect | is much more familiar with that side of things than java, although my time-to-relearn-java books start arriving today |
| 15:14.31 | Disconnect | yah |
| 15:16.00 | Disconnect | i've got 2 not-incompatible goals - basic user shell (with busybox tools at least) - doable if the shell can be gotten to without reflashing - and actual full access, which is probably fastest wth a reflash) |
| 15:17.11 | Disconnect | trying to decide where to focus my efforts. (i'll probably hit the terminal emulator first anyway, just cuz i can do that on the emulator while waiting for my phone) |
| 15:18.44 | jasta | morrildl: i'm happy to say i finally got all my work arounds in place and have put Five's main music playing service back together again |
| 15:20.55 | zhobbs | jasta: local web server workign? |
| 15:20.58 | muthu | jasta: so ready to go on 22? |
| 15:21.16 | jasta | zhobbs: yessir. |
| 15:21.19 | jasta | muthu: what/ |
| 15:21.39 | muthu | are you putting it on market on 22nd? |
| 15:22.12 | jasta | oh, no. |
| 15:22.22 | jasta | though i am hoping it will be "available" then. |
| 15:22.37 | muthu | why not launching? |
| 15:22.42 | jasta | for testers and whatnot |
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| 15:23.17 | jasta | because it's not ready. i've spent the last 2 weeks working around bugs. and ever since 1.0 came out i've been doing nothing but rewriting code. |
| 15:23.47 | jasta | besides, i can't use the Android market anyway, so no need to rush into that. |
| 15:24.19 | muthu | you can't use? |
| 15:24.32 | Dougie187 | he can't make it free |
| 15:24.33 | jasta | no, how would the market help the user get the server installed on their PC? |
| 15:24.37 | Dougie187 | it would use too much bandwidth too |
| 15:24.49 | muthu | oh ok |
| 15:24.55 | jasta | Dougie187: that's not it at all...it's just an issue of distribution. five needs more than the phone apps. |
| 15:24.56 | Dougie187 | he would have to pay 2 bucks per user. |
| 15:25.17 | romainguy | Dougie187: that doesn't apply to the Android Market |
| 15:25.23 | jasta | i guess i could distribute kind of a dummy package that just says "go download five server!" |
| 15:25.24 | Dougie187 | oh right. thats the tmobile one. |
| 15:25.26 | jasta | but that would be stupid |
| 15:25.40 | romainguy | Dougie187: and as far as I know the T-Mobile store is not even for Android anyway |
| 15:25.43 | Dougie187 | romainguy: how does the android market handel free apps? |
| 15:25.59 | Dougie187 | handle* |
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| 15:26.00 | romainguy | Dougie187: what do you mean? |
| 15:26.19 | Dougie187 | well, i guess the same was as paid apps? esp since paid apps don't come until an update. right? |
| 15:26.40 | Dougie187 | i think im just confusing myself from some article I read a while ago. |
| 15:26.45 | romainguy | I think so :) |
| 15:27.00 | Dougie187 | it happens. |
| 15:27.06 | Dougie187 | it was a very confusing article. |
| 15:27.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 15:27.17 | romainguy | one more :) |
| 15:27.44 | Dougie187 | are you guys planning to release the android source on the 22nd as well? |
| 15:28.02 | romainguy | we said that the source would be available around the time the first handsets are available |
| 15:28.06 | romainguy | so wait & see :) |
| 15:28.06 | muthu | pppp |
| 15:28.13 | Dougie187 | ok mr. vague. |
| 15:28.14 | Dougie187 | lolk |
| 15:28.37 | muthu | sorry |
| 15:29.00 | Dougie187 | i have clumsy fingers today. |
| 15:29.56 | morrildl | Dougie187: source code will be released in Q4, as soon as possible, though we have no concrete date just yet. We're treating it as a "release" just like any other, and the team working on it wants to get it out ASAP |
| 15:30.22 | muthu | looking forward to the sourcce |
| 15:30.47 | cbeust | Hope it will live up to your expectations :) |
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| 15:31.12 | muthu | ha! |
| 15:31.48 | muthu | i like the android design |
| 15:31.57 | muthu | just 4 things to remember |
| 15:31.58 | Disconnect | would expect that a release, esp a 'release like any other', would have meant source+bins together as 1.0.. is delayed source gonna be the norm? :( |
| 15:34.07 | romainguy | Disconnect: there's no delay so far |
| 15:34.39 | pjv | there's not too much (open) source around from us users/devs either atm, so I wouldn't put the "blame" on anyone too easily |
| 15:35.22 | cbeust | Disconnect: do you work on proprietary code as your day job? |
| 15:36.28 | Disconnect | romainguy: thought the question was coming up because the 1.0 sdk didn't have (complete?) sources yet.. rather than the (technically unreleased) device firmware. (although - again, technically - anyone @ tmob retail could request gpl etc etc.. not necessarily -reasonably- but technically.) |
| 15:36.53 | romainguy | Disconnect: the 1.0 release is the availability of the phones, not of the SDK :) |
| 15:37.36 | Disconnect | cbeust: i'm the only sysadmin for a big internet community site (30 million active members, something like 50 million monthly uniques, etc) .. the guys next to me do the coding, i keep it running. |
| 15:37.40 | romainguy | "anyone @ tmob retail could request gpl etc etc.. not necessarily -reasonably- but technically" << sure but all the GPL code has already been released |
| 15:37.48 | Disconnect | ah ok |
| 15:38.25 | jasta | pjv: speak for yourself, i've produced tons :) |
| 15:39.05 | pjv | sure, I'm not saying there isn't any at all |
| 15:39.36 | jasta | but yes, i actually haven't found any major open source projects so far. |
| 15:39.40 | jasta | (other than my own) |
| 15:40.03 | pjv | I've browsed the Five source code once... |
| 15:40.14 | jasta | ...and? |
| 15:40.57 | pjv | not seen any .apk for 1.0_r1 then so... |
| 15:41.24 | jasta | no Five APKs have been released to date for any version of the emulator |
| 15:41.29 | pjv | also thought it wasn't quite ready to run yet so didn't try it |
| 15:41.42 | pjv | oh sorry |
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| 15:42.57 | jasta | it's actually going to get packaged back together again in the next couple of weeks |
| 15:43.10 | pjv | speaking for myself: https://launchpad.net/androidsfortune, and https://launchpad.net/moneypenny, and hopefully soon: https://launchpad.net/collectionista |
| 15:43.26 | pjv | but these are very small projects (as I don't work full-time) |
| 15:44.06 | pjv | I would be a terrible dev for anything media/graphics so can't really judge Five |
| 15:44.07 | jasta | i don't work on android full-time either. i have a day job. |
| 15:45.32 | pjv | I will try Five when you've packaged it though I think, soon ... |
| 15:46.04 | jasta | bbl, shower |
| 15:48.18 | wastrel | what's Five? |
| 15:48.31 | pjv | http://code.google.com/p/five/ |
| 15:49.09 | wastrel | ah yes this. why are you calling it five? |
| 15:49.26 | pjv | it's jasta's, not mine |
| 15:50.00 | anno^da_ | romainguy: Are there some security mechanisms included in Android protecting the personal data except the screen lock mechanism? |
| 15:50.26 | anno^da_ | Or are there thoughts about integrating such things. |
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| 16:08.14 | jasta | wastrel: I named it Five after the movie Short Circuit, if you must know ;) |
| 16:09.38 | gdsx | anotherCaterpill: what do you mean by "protecting personal data"? |
| 16:10.22 | gdsx | bah |
| 16:10.27 | gdsx | anotherCaterpill: sorry |
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| 16:31.21 | Disconnect | gdsx: as history should have (but didn't) teach phone sw vendors, "the phone is locked" is hardly secure enough to prevent theft of data. even "I ran the data deleter" isnt' enough on many platforms (iphone failed both of those tests not long ago, iirc..) |
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| 16:41.43 | Disconnect | no rss on andappstore? :( |
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| 16:42.10 | Disconnect | ooh neat, every single link requires javascript. how quaint. |
| 16:43.39 | morrildl | Disconnect: ? what are you looking at |
| 16:43.45 | Disconnect | andappstore.com |
| 16:45.48 | morrildl | Disconnect: eh, okay |
| 16:46.05 | morrildl | Disconnect: yeah that's not an ideal user experience :) |
| 16:46.31 | Disconnect | no rss on androidapplications.com either .. so just ooc where are people listing most of their apps? |
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| 16:47.31 | gdsx | morrildl: hey |
| 16:48.15 | morrildl | gdsx: hi |
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| 16:48.47 | gdsx | Disconnect: there's obviously a tradeoff between security and convenience, though. The question is really "if the lock screen does its job, how likely is it that folks will get access to your data?" |
| 16:49.35 | Disconnect | gdsx: there are a bunch of assumptions there, chiefly that there are no flaws in the lock screen, device or apps (including 3rd-party) that would allow unauthorized activity |
| 16:49.36 | gdsx | Disconnect: and, IME, phones are about convenience. This obviously changes when you're marketing more toward enterprises (like the Blackberry stuff), but look at how many iPhones have no lock screen at all |
| 16:49.48 | jasta | Disconnect: ultimately the android market is going to be the most central place to list apps |
| 16:49.52 | jasta | so, just wait :) |
| 16:50.07 | gdsx | Disconnect: yes, but how much convenience are you willing to lose? |
| 16:50.15 | wastrel | i'm going to need an encrypted password storage app |
| 16:50.18 | gdsx | Disconnect: do you want to type in a password every time you look at email/calendar? |
| 16:50.25 | wastrel | preferably with desktop sync and a desktop app |
| 16:50.29 | Disconnect | gdsx: it can be done transparently |
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| 16:51.02 | gdsx | Disconnect: but if it's transparent, then you lose the extra security |
| 16:51.06 | Disconnect | add "read[/write] calendar access" as a per-app permission (if its not already) and use a mediator daemon to crypt/decrypt the data. (or contacts, more valuably..) |
| 16:51.35 | gdsx | Disconnect: wait, are we talking about aps or physical phone access, here? |
| 16:51.59 | Disconnect | right now a crashing/hacked browser could shuffle off all my contacts.. if there was a mediator it would either find them encrypted (no good) or pop up "Browser wants to steal your contacts. Allow? |
| 16:52.05 | Disconnect | gdsx: both |
| 16:52.07 | gdsx | Disconnect: that's not true |
| 16:52.22 | gdsx | err... I don't think that's true |
| 16:52.46 | romainguy_ | Disconnect: Browser would first need permission to read your contacts, which it doesn't have |
| 16:53.36 | Disconnect | romainguy_: if i chuck an app up there that grabs the contacts without using the api (say, using jni - if we're postulating code injection then that is a valid test..) i'd bet they are in a readable/usable format |
| 16:53.49 | Disconnect | ("up there" onto the phone, obviously, not marketpalce :) ..) |
| 16:53.50 | gdsx | Disconnect: how would you grab contacts without the api? |
| 16:53.54 | gdsx | Disconnect: "UNIX perms" |
| 16:54.41 | Disconnect | you saying the app runs with different uid based on whether its allowed access to contacts or not? |
| 16:54.44 | romainguy_ | Disconnect: except the contacts are not readable by any process |
| 16:54.47 | Disconnect | that doesn't sound reasonable |
| 16:55.06 | gdsx | Disconnect: there's an API for exchanging data |
| 16:55.17 | gdsx | Disconnect: if you don't go through the API, you don't get the data |
| 16:55.19 | gdsx | it's that simple |
| 16:56.53 | Disconnect | looking at the api its all stored in sqlite, which is readable by the user account.. |
| 16:57.22 | Disconnect | (and a million little utils, including - for reasons unknown to me - a firefox extension) |
| 16:57.38 | morrildl | Disconnect: there is no user account |
| 16:57.47 | morrildl | Disconnect: each application installs into its own user ID |
| 16:59.11 | Disconnect | hadn't found the security doc yet - poor google-fu today - but i'm reading it now.. |
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| 17:27.02 | jasta | hehe, it's so pointless searching for re-usable third party libraries for stuff i'm trying to do on Android |
| 17:27.02 | jasta | everything i find is so terribly inefficient |
| 17:27.46 | jasta | this last.fm library i found doesn't even have a way through its API to submit a hashed password. you can only give it the password in plain text and it'll hash it for you. |
| 17:30.32 | *** join/#android dipen (n=fdd001@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 17:35.13 | muthu | writing working & efficient code take some time |
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| 17:47.25 | Dougie187 | jasta: thats like pidgin. |
| 17:47.35 | Dougie187 | pidgin stores all passwords in plain text. |
| 17:48.00 | Dougie187 | basically an easy way to steal friends passwords from their laptops. |
| 17:48.01 | Dougie187 | lol |
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| 17:51.49 | jasta | im actually going to be having the Five server send the last.fm credentials to the phone so that the user only has to register the account once at the server |
| 17:52.10 | jasta | but im sending down the credentials as a hash, which is how the last.fm service accepts them |
| 17:52.43 | jasta | but im not doing encryption at all between the phone and the server, because that would be too heavy. so eavesdropping would allow someone to hijack some portion of your last.fm profile |
| 17:53.31 | Dougie187 | can you have any sensitive information in your last.fm profile? |
| 17:56.57 | muthu | haha.. your music history |
| 18:03.18 | jasta | Dougie187: well, no, but they can do things like scrobble a bunch of lame music on your behalf :) |
| 18:04.03 | jasta | its better to have mitm attacks possible than to suffer the terrible burden of encryption |
| 18:04.45 | Dougie187 | true |
| 18:04.45 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:04.49 | *** join/#android romainguy__ (n=gfx@216.239.45.19) |
| 18:07.18 | *** join/#android YanivC (n=YanivC@63.138.19.242) |
| 18:07.34 | *** join/#android jasonlee_ (n=chatzill@38.114.108.2) |
| 18:07.40 | Disconnect | ...but if the hash drops straight into the api is it any safer than sending it in clear? |
| 18:08.19 | YanivC | wow popular room |
| 18:09.18 | YanivC | ok question folks, been searchin online for places to start takin up android but havent found any good resources, have DLed eclipse and the adb and th been goin thru the examples, but I want better source of info... any suggestions? |
| 18:10.28 | jasta | what were you looking for beyond good documentation and examples? |
| 18:10.31 | pjv | YanivC, code.google.com/android *is* a good source of info imho |
| 18:10.47 | muthu | apps-for-android.googlecode.com |
| 18:10.50 | *** join/#android pardom (n=pardom@75.144.91.181) |
| 18:11.05 | jasta | yes, apps-for-android is a good additional resource. but ultimately, docs + examples is a winning combination. |
| 18:11.31 | *** join/#android romainguy__ (n=gfx@216.239.45.19) |
| 18:11.47 | jasta | YanivC: if you have a specific question, this channel can be a great resource as well. odds are any problem you're trying to solve has already been solved by one of us :) |
| 18:12.00 | pjv | .. or not ;-) |
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| 18:12.53 | YanivC | jasta ya thanks :) Im familiar with IRC, in fact I think its bar none one of the best resources for any developer (seasoned or beginner) |
| 18:13.05 | YanivC | but Im a VB.net/C# developer |
| 18:13.06 | jasta | well, i don't agree, but ok :) |
| 18:13.18 | YanivC | so migrating back to Java is a bit painful lol |
| 18:13.23 | YanivC | u dont agree? whys that? |
| 18:13.42 | *** part/#android pardom (n=pardom@75.144.91.181) |
| 18:13.54 | muthu | YanivC: heard C# is java clone |
| 18:14.14 | YanivC | not really |
| 18:14.24 | YanivC | very similar in syntax but thats about it |
| 18:14.39 | YanivC | also getting used to eclipse is taking some time |
| 18:15.11 | muthu | yeah, eclipse takes some time |
| 18:15.45 | YanivC | been using MS Dev for so many years that eclipse is actually biting me back :) |
| 18:16.04 | YanivC | and honestly... no offense to anyone...... but the MS Ide is far superior to eclipse |
| 18:16.20 | YanivC | then again for a free IDE eclipse is awesome |
| 18:16.28 | muthu | agree, MS Ide is superior to a lot of other ide's |
| 18:17.06 | Dougie187 | lol just putting my opinion out there, but the MS IDE sucks, and nothing is better then vim. but its all preference. |
| 18:17.06 | Dougie187 | lol |
| 18:17.09 | Dougie187 | anyways im out. |
| 18:17.15 | *** part/#android Dougie187 (n=doug@144.174.57.5) |
| 18:17.41 | YanivC | ok so heres a question..... from my early days (cough cough lol) java app starts with public void main correct? wheres that in android app>? |
| 18:17.55 | YanivC | I seeonCreate |
| 18:18.10 | YanivC | but..... wheres the main entry point? |
| 18:18.30 | YanivC | oh i think i see it.... |
| 18:18.38 | YanivC | is that the Manifest file? |
| 18:18.59 | rayado | YanivC: You should go through http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html |
| 18:18.59 | muthu | yeah kinda |
| 18:19.47 | jasta | YanivC: the entry point is onCreate, but it is not useful to think of this as an analogy to main. Read the docs on Activity Lifecycle. |
| 18:19.53 | rayado | there isn't really a "main entry point" it's all heavily componentized and object oriented |
| 18:19.55 | YanivC | went thru it.... poorly commented in my honest opinion |
| 18:20.07 | YanivC | rayado ya but there HAS to be a main entry point |
| 18:20.20 | rayado | no, there really isn't |
| 18:20.30 | YanivC | how? whats the first screen that shows? |
| 18:20.40 | YanivC | how does the vm decide which view to show first? |
| 18:20.49 | YanivC | or which intent gets fired first? |
| 18:20.52 | rayado | well, I guess a process starts somewhere, but that's all library code |
| 18:20.55 | YanivC | lol |
| 18:20.57 | YanivC | hahaha |
| 18:21.00 | YanivC | that was funny |
| 18:21.08 | YanivC | somewhere... ya i suppose somewhere too :) |
| 18:21.33 | YanivC | thats my point.... the documentation doest really go into that |
| 18:21.39 | YanivC | or at least not from what i found |
| 18:21.56 | YanivC | so for someone thats just starting with android.... it can seem weird |
| 18:22.05 | rayado | indeed, it doesn't. But it doesn't because it's not helpful for writing apps. |
| 18:22.08 | rayado | Yeah, it's a different model |
| 18:22.19 | rayado | you split up your app into the different activities |
| 18:22.27 | YanivC | yes understood |
| 18:22.33 | rayado | and then you designate via the manifest which ones show up in the launcher |
| 18:22.45 | YanivC | actually i think they did a GREAT jib with how codependant it is on XML |
| 18:23.06 | YanivC | and.... i like how theyre using the intent model/state |
| 18:23.25 | YanivC | but.... still..... theres always an entry point.... I think thats what the manifest is saying... |
| 18:23.43 | muthu | your application entry point is your manifest |
| 18:23.48 | YanivC | right |
| 18:23.55 | YanivC | exactly thats what I can tell so far |
| 18:24.03 | YanivC | so the activity in the manifest dictates the intent |
| 18:24.19 | muthu | yeah, you start with launcher |
| 18:24.22 | muthu | then go from there |
| 18:24.24 | YanivC | and the filter i spose triggers the launcher |
| 18:24.26 | YanivC | exactly |
| 18:24.51 | YanivC | i tell ya what tho...... android leaves no room for daydream coding |
| 18:24.59 | rayado | sorda. the library code uses reflection to find the class listed in the manifest |
| 18:25.05 | YanivC | uve really got to plan stuff out before you start |
| 18:25.09 | rayado | and creates an object of that |
| 18:25.14 | rayado | then starts the activity lifecycle on that |
| 18:25.26 | YanivC | reflection? in java? |
| 18:25.29 | YanivC | cool |
| 18:25.44 | rayado | yeah, it's not midp |
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| 18:26.19 | YanivC | ahhhhhhhhhhh ok me thinks me understands... so the launcher is my entry point, the intent filter within the activity tag dictates the view/intent/class that will be called |
| 18:26.40 | rayado | yeah |
| 18:27.31 | YanivC | so ..... then ..... what if i placed in my manifest 2 activities each witha filter calling the launcher....?? |
| 18:27.39 | rayado | you can get 2 icons |
| 18:27.40 | YanivC | is that plausible? |
| 18:27.47 | YanivC | lol |
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| 18:28.28 | YanivC | AHA! so the category launcher belongs to the launcher icons view? |
| 18:28.35 | rayado | yep |
| 18:28.38 | YanivC | coooool |
| 18:28.43 | YanivC | see... that makes sense |
| 18:28.46 | rayado | the launcher just queries for all of the activities in that category |
| 18:28.50 | YanivC | gotcha |
| 18:29.15 | YanivC | so... more than one launcher entry in the xml would cause more than one ico... each hittin that particular view/class/intent |
| 18:29.33 | rayado | yep |
| 18:29.37 | YanivC | awesome |
| 18:29.40 | YanivC | i like |
| 18:29.48 | YanivC | so then..... whos gonna police all this? |
| 18:30.12 | rayado | Well... if I download an app that puts 50 icons in my launcher, I'll probably delete it pretty fast |
| 18:30.15 | YanivC | see....... IRC rules! :) |
| 18:30.20 | YanivC | lol |
| 18:30.29 | YanivC | ya ummmm I would have to agree with you |
| 18:31.02 | YanivC | but that was my point.... theres NO WHERE i found online that explains what you and I just discussed.... which saved me proly hours in hair tearing |
| 18:32.18 | rayado | indeed |
| 18:32.22 | stadler | with all due respect, there is discussion of application entry points here: http://code.google.com/android/intro/appmodel.html |
| 18:32.46 | rayado | yeah, that's a little more in depth than he wanted |
| 18:33.36 | rayado | what comes after hello world is tough, because with hello world, you just kinda type it in, and don't worry about what's really going on |
| 18:33.49 | muthu | hope some nice books come out |
| 18:34.52 | YanivC | muthu actually stadler is correct... I must ave missed this |
| 18:35.05 | YanivC | "one of which is a top-level entry point (via an intent-filter for the action android.intent.action.MAIN and category android.intent.category.LAUNCHER" |
| 18:35.26 | muthu | no one reads the docs ;) |
| 18:36.04 | YanivC | so in terms they did say it.... but thats not a really relevant way of saying... HEY ... this is android.... in java it all starts with public void main, in adnroid it starts with Manifest.xml |
| 18:36.10 | YanivC | muthu AMEN to that! ;) |
| 18:36.31 | rayado | We should just archive this conversation into the docs |
| 18:36.35 | YanivC | lol |
| 18:37.03 | YanivC | actually one of the ops should prolly concise some of the questions here and it would prolly present itself as a great starting point |
| 18:37.30 | rayado | I actually wasn't kidding |
| 18:37.48 | YanivC | no if WinMo would just follow suit with the M$ way of memory mgmt...... |
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| 18:38.09 | YanivC | rayado..... how do you archive it into the docs? |
| 18:38.23 | rayado | well, I'm not sure where it would fit |
| 18:38.36 | rayado | but there is a faq section |
| 18:38.36 | YanivC | well how about.... Hello World? |
| 18:38.53 | YanivC | Hello World... I am Manifest :) .... |
| 18:39.10 | YanivC | and I are ... R.Java... that magic |
| 18:39.16 | YanivC | DOH! |
| 18:39.30 | muthu | haha |
| 18:39.40 | f00f- | 13:04 jasta its better to have mitm attacks possible than to suffer the terrible burden of encryption |
| 18:39.50 | f00f- | jasta needs to get schooled on user privacy obligations |
| 18:40.42 | YanivC | HA! it worked... |
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| 18:42.33 | YanivC | ok anyone know what the buffer size for undo is in eclipse? and is there a way to enlarge it? |
| 18:44.51 | *** part/#android muthu (n=muthu@59.96.4.221) |
| 18:44.53 | f00f- | yes |
| 18:44.58 | f00f- | preferences |
| 18:45.40 | YanivC | yup found it thanks |
| 18:45.49 | YanivC | huh it was set to 100? |
| 18:45.55 | YanivC | thats kinda low for default no? |
| 18:46.07 | f00f- | not really |
| 18:46.40 | YanivC | 100? dude thats like nothing |
| 18:46.50 | f00f- | 100 levels of undo? not really |
| 18:46.51 | f00f- | that's fine |
| 18:46.56 | YanivC | ummmmmmmmmmm |
| 18:47.02 | YanivC | i dont think its levels |
| 18:47.10 | f00f- | what is it |
| 18:47.12 | f00f- | 100 characters? |
| 18:47.16 | YanivC | ya i think so |
| 18:47.18 | f00f- | fail |
| 18:47.21 | f00f- | it's not |
| 18:47.34 | f00f- | well it depends |
| 18:47.40 | f00f- | if you type really slow, then probably it could be characters |
| 18:47.40 | YanivC | ummm ok but i just typed 2 lines of code and tried to go back and it went back half a sentence |
| 18:47.44 | f00f- | not sure how the undo system works ineclipse |
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| 18:54.36 | jjshoe | is it possible to build extensions for the broswer? |
| 18:54.41 | jjshoe | like, port a ff2/ff3 extension? |
| 18:55.55 | *** join/#android Dipen (n=LENOVO@host-208-68-238-61.biznesshosting.net) |
| 18:57.59 | f00f- | sure, but not until you get the browser plugin SDK and/or permission/mechanism to load native plugins |
| 18:58.26 | f00f- | i think the browser plugins are based on the netscape plugin architecture (used in ff, mozilla, etc.) |
| 18:58.38 | f00f- | but they're native code |
| 18:59.17 | *** part/#android YanivC (n=YanivC@63.138.19.242) |
| 19:00.24 | Disconnect | there is unlikely to be an XUL interpreter tho, since istr it uses webkit |
| 19:00.35 | Disconnect | so plugins, maybe, but extensions, almost certainly impossible |
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| 19:03.12 | jjshoe | hrm |
| 19:03.12 | jjshoe | http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/webkit/Plugin.html |
| 19:14.23 | zhobbs | I hate to jinx it, but I think I have fixed my memory leaks.... |
| 19:14.59 | dmoffett | I hope the Android phone and app buyers are shorts. :-( |
| 19:16.01 | benley | huh? |
| 19:17.09 | dmoffett | Dow is way down again today. :-( |
| 19:17.30 | benley | end of world, we're doomed, etc |
| 19:17.38 | f00f- | was just looking at my portfolio dmoffett |
| 19:17.40 | f00f- | it's horrible |
| 19:17.47 | *** join/#android mithraic (n=mithraic@dyn-160-39-19-165.dyn.columbia.edu) |
| 19:18.15 | f00f- | it's pretty end of the worldish |
| 19:18.18 | f00f- | or coming up on it, at least |
| 19:18.20 | mithraic | So has anyone spent much time looking at getting elements of Android up on (jailbroken) iPhones? |
| 19:18.24 | dmoffett | I have been set back quite a few years. I will be working when I am 90. |
| 19:18.38 | fadden_ | The trick is to wait until the squeamish have left the building and then start buying. |
| 19:19.31 | mithraic | I don't know much about Android, though -- how much of the SDK is in JVM classes that are portable, versus OS-level libraries that are less so? |
| 19:19.33 | fadden_ | Of course, if I could identify that point, I wouldn't still be working. |
| 19:25.50 | jasta | f00f-: i hope you were joking, being that i was a network security consultant for 2 years :) |
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| 19:27.09 | jasta | also, in this case, a mitm attack would be impossible to avoid since there is mutually trusted authority which would know the servers key. |
| 19:27.41 | jasta | even with SSL, you couldn't avoid it. that's the whole reason that certificate authorities exist. |
| 19:28.24 | f00f- | forget the mitm, i'm shocked that you would send passwords in the clear? |
| 19:28.25 | jasta | also, mitm attacks are only possible through another type of security failure, possibly even physical, beyond the scope of my application :) |
| 19:28.38 | jasta | f00f-: i'm not sending passwords in the clear, i'm sending the hash. |
| 19:28.59 | f00f- | do you protect against replay attacks? |
| 19:28.59 | jasta | which isn't reversible to the password, but it is usable to access the web service in question |
| 19:29.12 | f00f- | oh, so it's as good as a password then |
| 19:29.40 | f00f- | yeah, really the web servicres should offer stronger authentication options |
| 19:29.43 | jasta | well, in a sense. it's much more secure than transmitting plain text passwords as the password itself can be used to accomplish more and could also be used to infer more about the user. |
| 19:30.04 | jasta | f00f-: we're talking about interaction between five server and the phone client. |
| 19:30.42 | f00f- | which could happen over wifi or the data network i assume? |
| 19:30.44 | jasta | five server will transmit your last.fm hash to the client, which allows for an unavoidable mitm attack. |
| 19:30.51 | jasta | f00f-: public internet mostly. |
| 19:31.25 | f00f- | oh, so Five on the phone needs last.fm credentials? |
| 19:31.38 | tomgibara | fwiw in moseycode I generate a timestamped, versioned, opaque authent tokens and pass those around |
| 19:32.07 | tomgibara | that way I don't send the password - slightly different situation though |
| 19:32.39 | f00f- | yeah, basically preventing replay attacks |
| 19:32.44 | f00f- | as long as old tokens can't be reused |
| 19:33.19 | tomgibara | f00f-: ah well, there's the compromise - tokens are usable for a certain amount of time |
| 19:33.58 | tomgibara | but the user, by 're-associating' their device, instantly invalidates all outstanding tokens |
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| 19:34.35 | jasta | f00f-: do you know what prevents mitm attacks btw? |
| 19:34.51 | jasta | most people have no clue, and mistakenly assume that encryption is "perfect" when only 2 peers are involved. |
| 19:35.22 | f00f- | jasta: some HMAC type mechanism? |
| 19:35.34 | f00f- | plus some certification/trust |
| 19:35.37 | jasta | so to prevent mitm in this case, there would need to be a third party trusted authorited to exchange key information about the server. this means that the user would be required to either purchase a CA or get a free one that i hardcode like cacert.org |
| 19:35.56 | jasta | this is an absolutely unacceptable requirement to avoid an attack which can let someone scrobble songs as you. |
| 19:36.27 | jasta | on top of the fact that this would require encryption now, which would be an enormous processing burden on the phone to protect against an unlikely attack on barely useful information. |
| 19:36.53 | *** join/#android schmylan_ (n=schmylan@38.114.108.2) |
| 19:37.34 | jasta | f00f-: the reason mitm is possible is because if you don't know the server's key ahead of time, the client must *ask* the server for it. a mitm attack would just receive the server's real key, and instead send the client the attacker's key. |
| 19:38.00 | tomgibara | moseycode permits mitm attacks, I had similar reasoning to jasta, I designed it so that the credentials so gained were as limited as was practical |
| 19:38.16 | jasta | so, the prevention of this attack is if there is a third party involved which both parties (server and client) trust already and have keys for, then the client would verify the server's key and find it to be the attacker's, not the server's. |
| 19:38.20 | jasta | and shut down the connection |
| 19:38.42 | jasta | so the prevention of mitm is extremely difficult to provide, and should be considered as part of your design whether you even care to prevent it. |
| 19:39.15 | f00f- | don't you have some sort of central service for Five that could be used as a trusted party? |
| 19:39.35 | jasta | nope |
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| 19:39.53 | jasta | there are a host of reasons why i want to avoid that: namely the legal concerns of proxying any of this info |
| 19:40.22 | jasta | the RIAA would swarm on me ;P |
| 19:40.48 | harrdawg | Hey guys, I just downloaded my app from the Market Place, and I get an error about my SQLite database. The app force quits and I'm not sure how to fix it. |
| 19:41.02 | tomgibara | yes mitm should always be considered a possibility in most systems, my rule of thumb is don't allow the information leaked by a mitm attack to expose valuable information (eg. transmit a password hash, not the password) or to last indefinitely (time-limit the credentials) |
| 19:41.15 | harrdawg | When I install the apk via adb, everything is fine. |
| 19:41.21 | jasta | harrdawg: how do you have access to the market? |
| 19:41.46 | f00f- | harrdawg: what is *your* app? |
| 19:41.55 | jasta | tomgibara: exactly, the password hash is important as it is "like" a password, but since it was not reversed it cannot be use dot infer additional infromation about the user. |
| 19:42.00 | harrdawg | AccuWeather |
| 19:42.01 | jasta | for example, if they use this password for other services |
| 19:42.23 | jasta | or in last.fm's case, the web service uses the hash but the web site uses the password, and only the latter can be used to change the password |
| 19:42.27 | jasta | so no permanent hijacking would be possible |
| 19:42.37 | tomgibara | f00f-: remember that the only reason SSL is secure is because the trusted authorities are distributed with the browsers |
| 19:42.44 | pf|away | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:42.46 | f00f- | yes |
| 19:43.10 | tomgibara | so for jasta to avoid mitm attacks he needs a distribution model that is safer than that for the five app itself |
| 19:43.33 | tomgibara | eg. having a certificate distributed w/ android - obviously a non-starter |
| 19:43.41 | jasta | and again, it's all about how sensitive the information you're transmitting is. a last.fm password hash is not sensitive enough. |
| 19:43.42 | f00f- | what about some pairing process between five server and client |
| 19:43.58 | f00f- | true, all this isn't that sensitive |
| 19:44.03 | jasta | f00f-: there is no model in which 2 peers can avoid mitm without a third. |
| 19:44.18 | jasta | no matter what you call it, it's not possible :) |
| 19:45.02 | tomgibara | jasta: maybe quantum encryption, but that's not coming to mobile devices any time soon |
| 19:45.07 | jasta | hehe |
| 19:45.14 | zhobbs | T-mobile G2 will have it |
| 19:45.17 | jasta | also, the other thing to remember is that mitm attacks are very hard to target |
| 19:45.30 | f00f- | jasta: no, i mean like bluetooth-style pairing |
| 19:45.30 | jasta | usually requiring some type of physical access. |
| 19:45.34 | tomgibara | :) |
| 19:46.09 | jasta | f00f-: how is bluetooth pairing immune to eavesdropping? |
| 19:46.19 | jasta | (hint: it's not) |
| 19:46.20 | jasta | hehe |
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| 19:47.29 | f00f- | so even if you use symmetric crypto with a shared key entered physically once by the user, it's not secure enough? |
| 19:48.10 | jasta | well, the encryption is extremely weak. to the point that breaking it would be trivial. |
| 19:48.41 | jasta | think about it. if the user enters a 4 digit number to scramble the data, how hard do you suppose it would be to eavesdrop and attack that later with every possible combination? |
| 19:49.00 | f00f- | little to no effort |
| 19:49.02 | jasta | exactly |
| 19:49.38 | jasta | even with a longer password, it's easily predicted. the keys involved in SSL are much, much larger. |
| 19:49.50 | jasta | and with much more entropy |
| 19:50.07 | f00f- | could you use a combination of passwords and say an image that you transfered from your phone to the server? |
| 19:50.23 | f00f- | image as a keyfile? |
| 19:50.43 | jasta | you'd need the image on both machines. |
| 19:51.08 | jasta | if thats what youre talking about then there's a better way: just use a real key and have the user provide their own mechanism to get it there (over usb or whatever) |
| 19:52.05 | jasta | the mitm attacks require a third party because they are all over the same network. if you transmit the keys outside of the compromised network, then it's secure of course. |
| 19:52.22 | jasta | but the amount of work involved to hide this from the user would be staggering, and for naught in my mind. |
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| 19:54.11 | jasta | but yes, your thinking was on the right track. shared, strong secrets distributed outside of the network is how it's done :) |
| 19:54.32 | jasta | or with a third party over the same network that both mutually trust. |
| 19:54.48 | jasta | neither of which im going to provide :) |
| 19:55.36 | jasta | i am certain there is no overlap between the group of people who would be bothered by this approach and those that are using Last.fm in the first place :) |
| 19:55.38 | f00f- | yeah, ok i get it now. it seems like a good compromise then :) |
| 19:59.21 | jasta | teh real absurd behaviour is to transmit passwords in clear text |
| 19:59.29 | jasta | since that one is so easy to avoid |
| 19:59.43 | jasta | even if you are transmitting something with as much power as the password itself, its still stupid to transmit the password :) |
| 20:00.29 | jasta | sensible security involves authenticating with a hashed password and then using a strong cryptographic random number as a session key |
| 20:00.50 | jasta | which is what five will use :) |
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| 20:07.07 | jasta | hehe, i should probably build in logic for my playlist service to stopSelf() at some point :) |
| 20:07.26 | jasta | maybe after idling for 10 minutes or something |
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| 20:07.55 | taaz | speaking of passwords... are there guidelines on how android apps should manage credentials or session keys for online services they use? |
| 20:09.17 | taaz | what does the amazon app do? do you login from the app and it stores your pw in some settings db or what? |
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| 20:11.48 | anno^da_ | Thats something I would be intersted as well |
| 20:12.09 | jasta | taaz: as i just said, the sensibl approach is to store a hashed version of the password, but not the passowrd itself. |
| 20:12.15 | anno^da_ | Because I would never store my amazon password long lasting on such a device |
| 20:12.24 | jasta | then the service you are connecting to *should* if properly designed offer to let you authenticate with the hash |
| 20:12.40 | anno^da_ | Well but even the hash could be missused if the device is stolen |
| 20:12.59 | anno^da_ | I wouldnt count on the pretty safe locking screen :-) |
| 20:12.59 | jasta | yes, but you can and should then change your password so the hash becomes invalid. |
| 20:13.07 | anno^da_ | Thats true. |
| 20:13.23 | jasta | for example, if your wallet is stolen, your cards protect themselves only if you call your bank :) |
| 20:13.32 | anno^da_ | :-) Thats true. |
| 20:13.33 | tomgibara | I think services should go further and establish time-limited tokens |
| 20:13.49 | jasta | tomgibara: yes they should, but how does that "go further"? |
| 20:14.07 | jasta | the hashed password would still be stored on the device unless you wish to prompt the user periodically. |
| 20:14.15 | anno^da_ | But well I dont carry as much private data with me as I would with the G1. So there should be some more protection than just the simple locking screen. Or not? |
| 20:14.38 | tomgibara | jasta: it means that a compromise only lasts for a fixed period of time |
| 20:14.42 | anno^da_ | (I dont have a solution for that just a thought) |
| 20:15.03 | jasta | tomgibara: not true, unless outside of that fixed period you require manual re-authentication |
| 20:15.09 | jasta | as with the password entered into a dialog |
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| 20:15.53 | jasta | which will drive mobile users bonkers and is, imo, not worth it. i favor the solution where if your phone is lost/stolen, you should simply re-secure all the services for which it was configured to use. |
| 20:16.09 | tomgibara | okay - we're talking about end-to-end security here? |
| 20:16.10 | jasta | think about google's services for instance. do you think you will need to reauthenticate manually ever? |
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| 20:16.18 | jasta | tomgibara: we're talking about if the phone is stolen |
| 20:16.19 | tomgibara | Where the device itself is compromised? |
| 20:16.22 | jasta | yes. |
| 20:16.33 | tomgibara | sorry, missed that (disclaimer: am v. tired) |
| 20:16.36 | jasta | if the device itself is compromised, you need to go change your passwords, because apps will have stored the hashed pass |
| 20:16.48 | jasta | so a time-limited token will do nothing to save you, since the hashed pass will still be on the device |
| 20:17.08 | jasta | unless you periodically prompt the user, which would be infuriating. |
| 20:17.28 | jasta | or you could have a time-limited token that lasts way too long, and would actually be less secure that way :) |
| 20:17.32 | anno^da_ | But well reconfiguring everything can be a pain. I'm just thinking about it right now. What do I have on the phone. IM, Email, PIM, a lot of website account passwords, etc. |
| 20:17.56 | jasta | anno^da_: all of which you would want to re-secure if stolen. |
| 20:18.05 | laz | http://www.biowallet.net/ |
| 20:18.31 | anno^da_ | jasta: Just thought about the timeframe that I have for doing that. |
| 20:18.57 | anno^da_ | Perhaps there could be some SMS or message based possibility to destroy the data remotly after it gets stolen. |
| 20:19.14 | tomgibara | anno^da_: pretty sure that's patented by RIM |
| 20:19.17 | jasta | anno^da_: that's pretty weak security actually. if the attacker knew about such a feature, they would disable the radio immediately |
| 20:19.26 | anno^da_ | True. |
| 20:19.43 | anno^da_ | tomgibara: Well they cant force me not to write it for myself ;) |
| 20:19.54 | jasta | btw, this does imply that the attacker can defeat android's built-in security. |
| 20:20.04 | tomgibara | :) not entirely true, but they wouldn't know |
| 20:20.06 | jasta | since they'd need privileged access to the internal storage in order to do anything useful |
| 20:20.11 | anno^da_ | What is android in built security ? |
| 20:20.25 | anno^da_ | If the get my lock gesture. |
| 20:20.30 | jasta | android's built-in security is based on the notion that each app is isolated by UNIX privileges |
| 20:20.34 | anno^da_ | They have access to my services. |
| 20:20.37 | anno^da_ | Yeah well sure. |
| 20:20.38 | Disconnect | http://code.google.com/android/devel/security.html |
| 20:20.48 | jasta | so with limited access to the internal storage medium, you couldn't get stored hashed passwords directly |
| 20:20.52 | jasta | so you could only do what the device lets you do |
| 20:20.55 | jasta | and nothing more |
| 20:20.58 | anno^da_ | True. But you could use the services. |
| 20:21.06 | jasta | whereas with open access you could do lots more evil things |
| 20:21.10 | tomgibara | I did think about adding some form of bricking option to my pinpoint app, but didn't want to get into any legal wrangles |
| 20:21.16 | jasta | like use the amazon credentials to buy bigger things than mp3s :) |
| 20:21.39 | anno^da_ | Well ok. You are right. |
| 20:21.50 | jasta | i'm not a big fan of remote wipe or anything like that. i would just immediately re-secure any services my phone could access. |
| 20:22.26 | taaz | so... back to credential storage. where do you store whatever you are storing? |
| 20:22.33 | anno^da_ | Hmm. I'm not a big fan of private data like pictures in foreign hands. :-) |
| 20:22.35 | tomgibara | jasta: Without it you can't stop the attacker accessing the information that's resident on the device |
| 20:22.39 | jasta | taaz: in your apps dir |
| 20:22.45 | jasta | in a database or a flat file or whatever you want |
| 20:23.07 | Disconnect | is there anything in place that will force apps to use internal flash for config/password-hash/etc? cuz there's a -real- easy way around all this... |
| 20:23.11 | anno^da_ | tomgibara: Thats what I meant with security in that case. The unix security doesnt help me in that point. |
| 20:23.12 | jasta | anno^da_: well, yes, but again intelligent hackers would immediately swithc off the radio |
| 20:23.36 | Disconnect | ('all this' being 'working security') .. and even if its not there now, it'll need to eventually - the unit hasn't got a whole ton of storage onboard iirc |
| 20:23.52 | Disconnect | jasta: its significantly less useful with the radio off tho |
| 20:23.56 | anno^da_ | And complete encryption after the device is locked ? Is something like that possible or is it too slow. |
| 20:24.01 | jasta | Disconnect: not to an intelligent hacker. |
| 20:24.26 | tomgibara | jasta: I know nothing about blackberries other than my wife has one for work. perhaps they only grant access to your contacts after they have contacted RIM hq |
| 20:24.31 | jasta | for example, if i was going to intentionally run amok, i would steal someones phone, switch the radio off, open up the device and get access to internal storage, then i'd find your amazon hashed password, and i would buy a plasma TV. |
| 20:25.15 | tomgibara | Not completely hacker proof but certainly enough for enterprises who's staff leave their phones in other people's offices |
| 20:25.17 | Disconnect | more to the point - and the reason behind the blackberry security features - is open it up and steal all your internal emails about how the g2 comes out in feb with 2x the ram for free and even makes coffee just the way you like it.. |
| 20:25.25 | jasta | and i would rewrite all the girl's phone numbers on your google account to dial your mom. |
| 20:25.28 | jasta | hehe |
| 20:25.59 | jasta | none of which would require access to the phone's radio |
| 20:26.22 | Disconnect | blackberry works moderately hard (on some models) to prevent that sort of thing - case switches, epoxy over the flash, etc.. |
| 20:26.34 | jasta | remote wipe is a fine solution to get rid of local data like pictures. but for online services, you'd better just change your damn passwords |
| 20:26.41 | anno^da_ | Whats with encryption of the data after locking the phone ? Too slow? |
| 20:27.07 | anno^da_ | jasta: True. But pictures and other data can be very sensitive as well. |
| 20:27.20 | jasta | sure, but the point is that remote wipe will only work if the attacker is a total idiot |
| 20:27.30 | anno^da_ | :-) |
| 20:27.40 | jasta | and if they aren't a total idiot, then you really had better change your passwords :) |
| 20:27.46 | anno^da_ | Or if he is too slow. But yeah you are right in that point. |
| 20:28.04 | anno^da_ | Chaning youre password is something you have to do no matter what. |
| 20:28.23 | Disconnect | random side note, i may have to do something like this for android: mobilesite.net (webserver/python blog app for s60 phones) |
| 20:28.56 | Disconnect | yah but at least he won't have all my contacts and those pics from the nude beach last summer that i thought i deleted (or whatever..) |
| 20:29.07 | anno^da_ | So the best thing would be storing everything remotely. |
| 20:29.21 | Disconnect | i think bb got people used to the "x retries before suicide" method |
| 20:29.36 | Disconnect | sometimes takes pictures in locations that have no coverage (esp with tmob) .. |
| 20:29.45 | anno^da_ | So the attacker has to leave the radio switched on. ( I could now destroy the hashed passwords for the online service I'm storing data in) |
| 20:30.30 | Disconnect | and even without that, i trust (to a point) that while its in my pocket, i know who has access to those pics. (anyone in my pocket) vs the web, where its "anyone who can pretend to be me or find a hole in the online app, or find a cache in an inappropriate place, or sniff, or.." |
| 20:30.34 | anno^da_ | Wouldnt that be the solution. (Ok it is not usable at the moment because of slow internet connections but it would be more secure) Or do I forget something? |
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| 20:31.23 | Disconnect | ...ok so this might be a stupid question, but doesn't gsm include a proprietary hashing method? (not full-on crypto chip, just a way to generate one-way hashes) |
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| 20:34.57 | Disconnect | and for that matter, if tmob was willing to do imei banning this would be a moot point. let android go "OMG i'm bannernated!" and suicide |
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| 20:38.28 | anno^da_ | Next doping guy from Germany caught by retesting the tests from the Tour 2008. Oh I like this sport soo much. Next year we will see the Armstrong doping show again. *rolls eyes* |
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| 20:41.44 | tethridge | anno^da_, who got busted? |
| 20:43.27 | anno^da_ | Stefan Schumacher. (He won the 2 time trails) |
| 20:43.41 | tethridge | nice |
| 20:43.49 | anno^da_ | EPO CERA again :-) |
| 20:46.36 | anno^da_ | http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2008/20081006_181532_schumacher-aussi-positif_Dev.html <- thats the original news from the french lequipe |
| 20:46.36 | donomo | Disconnect: http://www.gsm-security.net/faq/gsm-encryption.shtml |
| 20:46.41 | anno^da_ | So now back to android :-) |
| 20:46.45 | romainguy___ | anno^da_: L'Équipe :) |
| 20:46.58 | Disconnect | strangely enough, i just read that :) |
| 20:47.23 | anno^da_ | romainguy___: Oohhh I'm sorry for that Romain. :-) |
| 20:47.25 | tethridge | I'd like to think that we won't see the doping charges against lance next year |
| 20:47.37 | romainguy___ | anno^da_: just teasing you :) |
| 20:47.44 | anno^da_ | I cant type the accent that fast :D |
| 20:47.45 | tethridge | he seems to have a good plan of attack by putting all of his tests online for the public |
| 20:47.59 | anno^da_ | But I know the name of the accent. |
| 20:48.02 | romainguy___ | anno^da_: it's easy if you have a Mac :) |
| 20:48.09 | anno^da_ | I have one :P |
| 20:48.14 | duey | biking is a doped sport |
| 20:48.18 | romainguy___ | then that would be alt-e shift-e |
| 20:48.42 | anno^da_ | alt+e is the euro for me :D |
| 20:48.53 | duey | most of them "have" asthma |
| 20:48.55 | romainguy___ | on a qwerty Mac keyboard? |
| 20:48.56 | romainguy___ | weird |
| 20:49.07 | anno^da_ | yeah querty one :-) |
| 20:49.12 | anno^da_ | qwerty |
| 20:49.24 | anno^da_ | ah no qwertz |
| 20:49.25 | anno^da_ | :D |
| 20:49.36 | romainguy___ | German keyboard? |
| 20:50.00 | tethridge | the temptation is in all pro sports |
| 20:50.08 | anno^da_ | Yeah german keyboard |
| 20:50.08 | tethridge | it's the money! |
| 20:50.17 | jasta | hehe, business types are so funny ;) |
| 20:50.18 | romainguy___ | anno^da_: at least you can ß easily :p |
| 20:50.25 | bricode_ | Anyone know if Android has been ported to other languages other than English? |
| 20:50.27 | tethridge | channels Jerry Maguire, "Show me the money!" |
| 20:50.35 | anno^da_ | ÃÃÃÃÃ ;) |
| 20:50.43 | jasta | i just talked to some dude we're having issues e-mailing beacuse their server is some non-compliant piece of shit |
| 20:50.56 | donomo | dvorak keyboard ftw |
| 20:51.12 | jasta | i specifically said "your server is violating the standard" and the word violate really popped out to him. he suddenly thought that something illegal was happening |
| 20:51.22 | jasta | and asked if he should contact the authorities hehe |
| 20:51.27 | jasta | what a doofus |
| 20:51.33 | donomo | HTTP police |
| 20:51.48 | anno^da_ | ahhh L`Ãquipe :-) |
| 20:52.20 | romainguy___ | no, L'Équipe |
| 20:52.41 | anno^da_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:52.46 | romainguy___ | lol |
| 20:53.10 | pjv | anno^da_, your encoding must be wrong :) you give me garbled text |
| 20:53.26 | anno^da_ | romainguy: do you get encoding errors as well ? |
| 20:53.33 | romainguy___ | not at all |
| 20:53.45 | pjv | is it so hard to type L'Équipe? |
| 20:53.45 | anno^da_ | pjv: You're encoding must be wrong :-) |
| 20:54.01 | anno^da_ | not really :-) |
| 20:54.06 | anno^da_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:54.09 | anno^da_ | :P |
| 20:54.41 | anno^da_ | Au revoir. :-) |
| 20:54.41 | pjv | is only seeing unicode boxed when anno^da_ speaks french |
| 20:54.47 | pjv | *boxes |
| 20:54.53 | nizox | L'Ãquipe, french keyboard :p |
| 20:55.10 | anno^da_ | Hmm well it is UTF8 I dont know. So well I cant change anything about it. :-) |
| 20:55.19 | pjv | oh well, must be my encoding then |
| 20:56.08 | pjv | hmm yeah, I probably have iso8859-15 |
| 20:56.20 | anno^da_ | MIRC probably :-) |
| 20:58.20 | anno^da_ | http://img.skitch.com/20081006-18ietknbmnj3a4m837g4xrpefr.jpg |
| 20:58.26 | anno^da_ | Thats how it looks for me :-) |
| 20:59.31 | pjv | I know how it should look ;-) |
| 21:00.27 | anno^da_ | So now I'm out. :-) Good night guys. |
| 21:00.30 | pjv | Anyone writing a decent irc client for android lol? |
| 21:00.51 | anno^da_ | An irc client is a must besides a decent instant messaging client.. |
| 21:01.04 | anno^da_ | Pidgin or Adium for Android. :-) |
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| 21:01.20 | donomo | pjv: how about an ssh client? i can use screen+irssi that way |
| 21:01.25 | pjv | pidgin would be nice, but without the plain text passwords then obviously |
| 21:02.03 | anno^da_ | I need ICQ, XMPP, GTalk, GaduGadu :-) |
| 21:02.03 | pjv | still not convinced about terminals on android |
| 21:02.33 | AttractiveApe | xmpp is gtalk. |
| 21:02.34 | anno^da_ | In one application, with one contact list |
| 21:02.38 | anno^da_ | Yeah ok. |
| 21:02.59 | anno^da_ | And tabbed messaging. :-) |
| 21:03.20 | pjv | yeah I couldnt understand gnome releasing their own IM thing in 2.24 recently though: empathy |
| 21:03.37 | anno^da_ | I dont really care about "social" networks like facebook. |
| 21:03.45 | tomgibara | okay, dumb question: how do you delete a sqlite database programmatically? |
| 21:03.54 | anno^da_ | What protocols does Empathy speek? |
| 21:04.05 | anno^da_ | Just XMPP ? |
| 21:04.09 | pjv | and then you would think "well okay they just changed the frontend" but apparently it also doesnt use libpurple but telepathy |
| 21:04.27 | pjv | almost as many as pidgin + sip I think |
| 21:05.19 | pjv | tomgibara, how about deleting tables? |
| 21:05.21 | tethridge | tomgibara, isn't a database just the file? |
| 21:05.28 | tethridge | so delete the file? |
| 21:05.38 | tethridge | is not a sqlite expert |
| 21:05.49 | pjv | neither |
| 21:06.03 | tomgibara | I think databases are only created in the databases directory |
| 21:06.33 | tomgibara | (but I'm not sure about that) |
| 21:06.45 | jasta | databases are created whereever you want them to be. it's just defaulting there because of Android's helper classes |
| 21:07.00 | tomgibara | jasta: that's what I thought originally |
| 21:07.10 | jasta | and yes, sqlite databases are just files. deleting the file will delete the database, however do note that unlink may not occur until after the file is closed by another process using it. |
| 21:07.20 | tomgibara | then why when I try to pass in a file does sqlite just die? |
| 21:07.22 | dmoffett | is there an Bonjour, multicast dns I think, like functionality in Android? |
| 21:07.25 | jasta | or even the same process :) |
| 21:07.39 | jasta | tomgibara: because it's not a sqlite database file? :) |
| 21:07.45 | jasta | or you passed it in wrong |
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| 21:07.49 | dmoffett | Looked around and can't seem to see anything quite the same? |
| 21:07.52 | tomgibara | hmm |
| 21:08.19 | xavd | dmoffett: there isn't but I was able to use jmdns |
| 21:08.48 | dmoffett | xavd: thank you. |
| 21:09.26 | tomgibara | (these sqlite apis aren't good) |
| 21:10.07 | tomgibara | dbFile = context.getFileStreamPath("caache_"+name+".sqlite"); |
| 21:10.12 | tomgibara | db = SQLiteDatabase.openOrCreateDatabase(dbFile.getPath(), null); |
| 21:10.20 | tomgibara | fails |
| 21:11.01 | tomgibara | sqlite3_open_v2("/data/data/com.smartcapsules.cooking.android.app/files/caache_general.sqlite", &handle, 6, NULL) failed |
| 21:11.49 | tomgibara | this is after a -wipe-data |
| 21:12.06 | tomgibara | there are no files is the apps data directory |
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| 21:15.13 | pjv | first of all, I use .db, don't think that matters though |
| 21:16.12 | *** join/#android schmylan_ (n=schmylan@38.114.108.2) |
| 21:19.19 | pjv | and dbFile.isFile() is false? (youre asking it to create the file?) |
| 21:19.56 | tomgibara | there are no files in the apps data directory and I want to create the db |
| 21:20.32 | pjv | does it mention anywhere it can create the file for you? it mentions only creating the database |
| 21:20.50 | pjv | you're right, this part of the API isn't great |
| 21:21.41 | tomgibara | this must be something so blindingly obvious I can't see it... |
| 21:22.37 | zhobbs | I hope Bundles are light, I'm abusing them |
| 21:23.24 | tomgibara | zhobbs: to what end? |
| 21:23.53 | zhobbs | well, I'm using them instead of Map in a lot of places so I can save state easier |
| 21:23.56 | pjv | tomgibara, tried giving a path that would create the database in its default place (thats ....app/databases/ instead of ....app/files/ right?) |
| 21:24.34 | tomgibara | pjv: yes, still fails |
| 21:25.22 | tomgibara | zhobbs: I would guess they are heavier than maps, since they need to store (or at least check) the 'object kind' |
| 21:26.05 | romainguy_ | tomgibara: they don't store it |
| 21:26.18 | romainguy_ | they just check it with a cast |
| 21:26.32 | romainguy_ | when you call a get*() |
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| 21:28.15 | tomgibara | romainguy_: is it backed by a map, or is it its own more efficient implementation (since it doesn't need all the map semantics)? |
| 21:28.34 | romainguy_ | it's just a Map |
| 21:30.53 | pjv | tomgibara, btw, I used Veecheck in Android's Fortune, and it works as far as I've tested it |
| 21:30.55 | tomgibara | okay, my questions are getting dumber as I get more tired... do you need to do anything 'special' other than call: SQLiteDatabase.openOrCreateDatabase(name, null) to create a sqlite db? |
| 21:31.01 | tomgibara | pjv: great |
| 21:31.43 | tomgibara | I can't believe I'm asking these questions, since I've already written several apps that use them?!? |
| 21:31.53 | pjv | is this becoming a question about succesfully creating *any* database? |
| 21:31.58 | tomgibara | yes |
| 21:32.12 | pjv | then why not do as in the Notepad sample? |
| 21:32.27 | tomgibara | This fails: http://pastebin.com/m4dbacfab |
| 21:33.15 | tomgibara | 10-06 22:25:29.172: ERROR/Database(11630): sqlite3_open_v2("dummy", &handle, 6, NULL) failed |
| 21:34.00 | pjv | you're using the lower level calls I've never used so can't really help |
| 21:34.08 | gdsx | win 17 |
| 21:34.10 | pjv | how about just .create(null)? |
| 21:34.19 | pjv | for an in-memory one |
| 21:35.22 | pjv | or use SQLiteOpenHelper as in Notepad? |
| 21:36.30 | tomgibara | pjv: I just shouldn't need SQLiteOpenHelper, it will mess with the semantics of the code I already have (which worked until it decided not to) |
| 21:36.40 | pjv | heh there is an error in the android generated javadoc: http://code.google.com/android/reference/android/database/sqlite/SQLiteOpenHelper.html : ERROR(/com.google.provider.NotePad.NotePadProvider) |
| 21:37.21 | pjv | I know I know, it should just work, at least if you interpret the comments the way we do currently |
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| 21:42.10 | dmoffett | I noticed on the sdcard is pretty much a blank file system. Is there a standard for where a particular app should put app related files? |
| 21:42.10 | pjv | tried the full absolute path? (SQLiteDatabase db = SQLiteDatabase.open("/data/data/PACKAGE_NAME/ |
| 21:42.10 | pjv | mydatabase.db", null); ) |
| 21:42.44 | tomgibara | pjv: yes |
| 21:43.17 | tomgibara | Can no one step forward and show me where the bug is in this simple example then? http://pastebin.com/m4dbacfab |
| 21:43.32 | pjv | tried deleting the cookingwhatever dir and the files dir within? |
| 21:43.59 | tomgibara | pjv: have tried -wipe-data (twice) - that should do it |
| 21:47.48 | dmoffett | tomgibara: I can't really see the problem you are having but here is the code I use to open a db. |
| 21:48.16 | dmoffett | http://pastebin.com/d711edadf |
| 21:48.47 | dmoffett | Can't take credit for the code though. I copied it from example. |
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| 21:49.06 | tomgibara | dmoffett: thanks, I was trying to avoid SQLiteOpenHelper, I'm starting to think I may have to cave in on this |
| 21:49.47 | tomgibara | What the hell could be simpler than: SQLiteDatabase.openOrCreateDatabase(getDatabasePath("dummy.db"), null); on a freshly wiped emulator? |
| 21:50.00 | pjv | or wait for the source code and see how google does it in SQLiteOpenHelper |
| 21:50.13 | dmoffett | maybe it has something to do with needing a context? |
| 21:50.17 | tomgibara | I can't wait that long in this instance |
| 21:51.03 | tomgibara | dmoffett: I should have one in the onCreate of an Application component |
| 21:51.43 | dmoffett | right but I notice that DatabaseHelper seems to need a reference. |
| 21:52.06 | tomgibara | yes, hmmm... |
| 21:53.10 | tomgibara | I assumed that was because it needed the context to obtain the path |
| 21:53.23 | tomgibara | here I'm in the context and can call getDatabasePath(...) |
| 21:54.43 | pjv | I found your delete I think: getApplication().deleteDatabase(name); ?? |
| 21:55.18 | pjv | tried : getApplication().openOrCreateDatabase(name, mode, factory) ? |
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| 21:55.42 | tomgibara | pjv: no |
| 21:56.59 | tomgibara | \o/ that works |
| 21:57.48 | pjv | it works? great, now file a bug report... |
| 22:00.19 | tomgibara | Perhaps they left the static SQLiteDatabase exposed accidentally |
| 22:00.46 | pjv | perhaps, you clearly need to call it on context |
| 22:02.09 | pjv | I need to give credit to this guy allthough it looks like an earlier SDK: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/f4c591cea63aba86/07b0a89285fba21c |
| 22:05.42 | pjv | gtg, goodnight |
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| 22:49.58 | monstrMobile | where can i download the android os source? |
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| 22:50.11 | cbeust_ | You can't yet |
| 22:50.20 | monstrMobile | so how do i download the os |
| 22:51.01 | cbeust_ | Download the SDK |
| 22:51.10 | monstrMobile | can i download the os?...like if i build an app for android how do i test it...or if i want to port the os to a device how do i get the code |
| 22:51.31 | monstrMobile | or...how do i install the os on my device |
| 22:51.45 | zhobbs | monstrMobile: the SDK will let you develop test apps |
| 22:51.51 | zhobbs | develop/test |
| 22:51.53 | monstrMobile | i just downloaded the sdk...but i want the os |
| 22:52.01 | cbeust_ | Use the emulator |
| 22:52.09 | monstrMobile | how do i get that? |
| 22:52.16 | monstrMobile | sorry i am a noob at android |
| 22:52.27 | cbeust_ | I suggest searching "android" on google |
| 22:52.46 | monstrMobile | i have...all i can find is the sdk |
| 22:52.50 | monstrMobile | please help |
| 22:52.58 | monstrMobile | just point me in the right direction |
| 22:53.00 | cbeust_ | The emulator is in the SDK, did you even try to use it after you downloaded it? |
| 22:53.23 | monstrMobile | just unzipped it....but thank you. |
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| 22:53.53 | monstrMobile | so how are people able to port android without the source |
| 22:54.21 | rabelais | monstrMobile, the source will be released when the phone comes out |
| 22:54.44 | monstrMobile | but people are porting android right now...how so |
| 22:55.05 | umdk1d3 | some of the porting is at a low kernel level |
| 22:55.11 | umdk1d3 | which the kernel sources are already opensourced |
| 22:55.28 | umdk1d3 | http://git.android.com/ |
| 22:55.34 | monstrMobile | i see....makes sense....thank you |
| 22:56.15 | monstrMobile | thanks umdk1d3 |
| 22:58.09 | f00f- | umdk1d3: how's the job hunt going? |
| 22:58.32 | umdk1d3 | lol its not really a hunt from my side of things ;) |
| 22:59.17 | monstrMobile | the emulator takes a while to boot |
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| 23:00.31 | donomo | im gonna get my G1 at bestbuy. whoho |
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| 23:04.52 | umdk1d3 | is it 30 or 90 days after the contract you can get them unlocked? |
| 23:05.32 | umdk1d3 | i have a feeling there will be a real scarcity of devices, making it even harder for developers to get their hands on one |
| 23:05.57 | donomo | i agree. i want to stay on my prepaid setup but i want data service as well |
| 23:06.14 | umdk1d3 | and id be all for helping get a phone to another dev, if the process is pretty easy |
| 23:06.26 | donomo | tmob kindof stiffs the prepaid guys, no data, no sms shortcodes |
| 23:06.44 | umdk1d3 | whats a shortcode? |
| 23:07.28 | f00f- | text "OBAMA" to 55123 to vote |
| 23:08.19 | umdk1d3 | o.o |
| 23:08.35 | umdk1d3 | text "RONPAUL" to TUBES to vote ;) |
| 23:09.40 | umdk1d3 | bah /me goes to find food |
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