| 00:06.55 | *** join/#asterisk [TK]D-Fender (~joe@64.235.216.2) |
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| 00:42.09 | nasomi | evening |
| 00:42.38 | nasomi | do i need to have all phones on a dedicated vlan? |
| 00:43.51 | WIMPy | No. |
| 00:43.56 | WIMPy | But maybe you want to. |
| 00:44.12 | nasomi | why would i want to? |
| 00:44.29 | nasomi | what down sides might i experience to having them on the same lan as other machines |
| 00:44.44 | WIMPy | To prioritize traffic or for security reasons. |
| 00:45.03 | nasomi | security isn't a concern, it's in my house |
| 00:45.15 | nasomi | and i have QoS features on my switches |
| 00:45.48 | nasomi | but i had heard someone say that it caused interference |
| 00:45.57 | nasomi | other traffic on hte network |
| 00:46.05 | nasomi | which sounded like bs |
| 00:46.08 | nasomi | but i wasn't sure |
| 00:46.27 | WIMPy | Interference? |
| 00:46.32 | nasomi | sound quality issues |
| 00:46.42 | nasomi | as though it were an analog system |
| 00:46.51 | WIMPy | You can get bad audio when transferring files. |
| 00:47.59 | nasomi | you mean from bandwidth limitations on the switch? |
| 00:48.15 | WIMPy | yes |
| 00:48.47 | nasomi | i have a theoretical 640gbps bandwidth on my switches |
| 00:48.52 | nasomi | i imagine that should not be an issue |
| 00:49.32 | nasomi | is there a list of compatible ip phones? |
| 00:49.47 | WIMPy | Almost all. |
| 00:49.47 | nasomi | or is there a standard for ip phones |
| 00:49.59 | WIMPy | For various levels of compatible, off course. |
| 00:50.06 | WIMPy | Several. |
| 00:50.06 | nasomi | ok so just about any avaya/cisco should work |
| 00:50.44 | WIMPy | The most wiedely used one, SIP, is however a set of hundreds of standards. So compatibility levels are a bit of a gamble. |
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| 00:51.10 | nasomi | how does ip distribution work? will astrisk work with my dhcp server and phones get ip's from dhcp server? |
| 00:51.42 | WIMPy | Whatever you want. Like any other IP device. |
| 00:51.58 | nasomi | ok |
| 00:52.14 | nasomi | do i need to run bare metal or can i virtualize the server without issue? |
| 00:52.46 | WIMPy | As long as you don;t need hardware interaces, you can definitely virtualize. |
| 00:53.21 | nasomi | can i use a standard 56k type pci modem to interface with an outside line? |
| 00:53.32 | WIMPy | no |
| 00:54.01 | nasomi | is there a specific term i need to search for when searching for a modem that will be compatible to interface with a telephone line? |
| 00:54.49 | WIMPy | An FXO card or a VOIP (e.g. SIP) gateway. |
| 00:54.58 | *** join/#asterisk areski (~areski@80.174.128.55.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 00:55.06 | WIMPy | There are ATAs with FXO ports as well. |
| 00:55.20 | WIMPy | But using POTS lines can be a real PITA. |
| 00:56.13 | nasomi | perhaps i should explain my goal and you could make better suggestions than my assumptions |
| 00:57.36 | nasomi | rack of servers. 120 poe ports. 3 poe WAP's. 10 poe camera's. planned 10 poe phones |
| 00:58.13 | nasomi | want pbx software as a vm that interfaces with physical phone line, pick up ip phone and hit 9 for outside |
| 00:58.26 | nasomi | or 101 for kitchen, 102 for office, etc |
| 00:58.50 | nasomi | i have switches and servers, i need phones and a way to interface servers with phone line |
| 00:59.13 | WIMPy | You can do that, but you should think about replacing that phone line with either a digital one or an ITSP. |
| 00:59.18 | WIMPy | ~itsp |
| 00:59.18 | infobot | [~itsp] An ITSP is an Internet Telephony Service Provider (or VoIP telephone company). They allow you to either SEND calls to the PSTN (this is called termination), RECEIVE calls from the PSTN (called origination), or both. Some offer fixed rates, others $/min. Enter ~itsplist-us (USA) or ~itsplist-ca (Canada) for a listing of popular ITSPs. |
| 01:00.07 | nasomi | i prefer a copper phone line |
| 01:00.14 | nasomi | we often experience power outages |
| 01:00.22 | nasomi | when we do, all ip phone services stop |
| 01:00.34 | nasomi | internet stops, cable stops, etc |
| 01:00.49 | *** join/#asterisk fstd_ (~fstd@unaffiliated/fisted) |
| 01:01.08 | WIMPy | You could get ISDN if available. |
| 01:01.24 | nasomi | hmm, i ahven't heard that term ina long time |
| 01:01.27 | WIMPy | Or an UPS. |
| 01:01.45 | nasomi | if a line goes down, power company shuts down the power on the lines |
| 01:02.05 | nasomi | which shuts down distribution boxes for cable and verizon internet |
| 01:02.13 | nasomi | i'm not sure if ISDN would fall into that category |
| 01:02.18 | WIMPy | That's bad |
| 01:02.32 | nasomi | phone is hte only thing that works when power is out |
| 01:02.37 | WIMPy | Depends on how they implemented it. |
| 01:02.45 | nasomi | and it's a bit rural here |
| 01:02.54 | nasomi | i would be surprised if they had ISDN lines in the area |
| 01:03.03 | WIMPy | But that's probably the same as POTS. |
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| 01:04.31 | nasomi | i'm relatively new to ip phones and pbx's and all that |
| 01:04.40 | nasomi | i just know my copper phone works when nothing else does |
| 01:05.07 | WIMPy | Yes, that was one of the advantages of the PSTN. |
| 01:06.45 | nasomi | so search ebay for a cheap fxo card? |
| 01:07.41 | WIMPy | Well, for the analog stuff, I'd recommend to avoid cheap. |
| 01:08.07 | nasomi | Intel KB581603/01 FXO PCI Card |
| 01:08.21 | WIMPy | Better try Digium (the ones who do Asterisk development) or Sangoma or something known. |
| 01:08.47 | nasomi | do i need both fxo and fxs? |
| 01:09.15 | WIMPy | You need FXS of you want to connect a phone or a fax or some other terminal. |
| 01:09.38 | nasomi | you mean aside from ip phones |
| 01:09.44 | WIMPy | yes |
| 01:09.50 | nasomi | understood |
| 01:10.08 | WIMPy | You can off course also use a VOIP gateway for that ("ATA"). |
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| 01:10.34 | nasomi | so many new acronym's... |
| 01:10.37 | WIMPy | A real hardware interface would be recommended for data, like fax. |
| 01:11.00 | nasomi | thankfully, fax is dead |
| 01:11.01 | WIMPy | Fax over IP is rather iffy, even on a LAN. |
| 01:11.13 | WIMPy | I whish it was. |
| 01:11.29 | nasomi | in my residential life it is |
| 01:11.38 | nasomi | no one faxes me, nor do i fax other people |
| 01:11.49 | nasomi | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digium-Quad-TDM400P-with-1-X100M-2-X-NXO100-FXO-S110M-FXS-Modules-Warranty-/321593273000?pt=Phone_Switching_Systems&hash=item4ae073eaa8 |
| 01:12.01 | nasomi | this thing looks to have modules bolted to it for some purpose |
| 01:12.39 | WIMPy | Yes, they are modular. IIRC te red ones conect to lines and the green ones to terminals. |
| 01:12.50 | nasomi | what is a terminal |
| 01:13.05 | nasomi | so i could connect 3 copper lines to that |
| 01:13.06 | WIMPy | A phone or whatever device. |
| 01:13.18 | WIMPy | yes |
| 01:13.35 | nasomi | and astrisk can handle multiple external lines, correct? |
| 01:13.37 | WIMPy | If I'm correct about the colors/FXS/FXO. |
| 01:13.42 | WIMPy | Sure. |
| 01:14.08 | WIMPy | I haven't dealt with analog stuff for ages. |
| 01:14.11 | nasomi | i'm debating a backup internet, and they often come pared with a "free phone line" |
| 01:14.41 | nasomi | call me old fashioned, but when shit hits hte fan and you're bunkered down, old shit seems to work better than new |
| 01:14.59 | WIMPy | True. But it's hard to get. |
| 01:15.20 | nasomi | and when you have 8' of snow outside, you're quite bunkered down |
| 01:15.37 | WIMPy | Cool |
| 01:15.54 | nasomi | i don't right now, thankfully, but it's happened before |
| 01:16.02 | WIMPy | We used to have such a winter in the 70s, but I hardly remember that. |
| 01:16.57 | nasomi | but 3 voip lines and a copper line into a 4 port card would mean 4 simultamious calls during normal circustmances, and one during extreme |
| 01:17.20 | WIMPy | yes |
| 01:19.10 | nasomi | just keep having shit hit the fan one way or another and seeing people completely stumble over themselves |
| 01:19.26 | nasomi | and if i'm doing ip phone setup in the house it may as well be able to dial up |
| 01:19.33 | nasomi | with two soon to be teenage daughters |
| 01:19.40 | *** join/#asterisk Micc (~Mic@208.52.162.35) |
| 01:19.51 | nasomi | i'm still living in the 80's |
| 01:21.15 | Micc | I'm trying to build asterisk 13.0.1 with pjsip, but I can't seem to get it to recognize that pjsip is installed. I've set the PKG_CONFIG_PATH but it still can't find it. |
| 01:23.34 | Micc | ah, nvm, maybe it worked this time. I set the PKG_CONFIG_PATH with export this time |
| 01:38.05 | nasomi | is htere a good free beginner friendly ui for astrisk |
| 01:38.16 | nasomi | i've googled it but not much ifnroamtion on the ones that say free |
| 01:38.20 | nasomi | prefer fully featured |
| 01:38.32 | WIMPy | There is no fully featured. |
| 01:38.48 | WIMPy | I think the only one really alive is FreePBX. |
| 01:39.04 | WIMPy | But it's not for beginners. It's for those who don't want more. |
| 01:39.27 | nasomi | is htere a beginner friendly guide somewhere |
| 01:39.38 | WIMPy | If you want to learn Asterisk, stay away from the GUIs. |
| 01:39.45 | WIMPy | We have |
| 01:39.50 | WIMPy | ~primer |
| 01:39.50 | infobot | New to asterisk configuration? Check out this primer to get started. http://burner.com/asterisk-primer |
| 01:39.55 | WIMPy | ~book |
| 01:39.55 | infobot | Asterisk: The Definitive Guide, 4th Edition (ISBN 1-4493-3242-0) available at http://oreilly.com/catalog/0636920025894 - Asterisk: The Definitive Guide is released under a Creative Commons License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/) and a version is available for reading online at http://www.asteriskdocs.org/ or see ~buybook |
| 01:40.50 | nasomi | thank you, i think the primer link is what i'm looking for |
| 01:46.41 | nasomi | what sort of features might i be unable to utilize |
| 01:46.53 | nasomi | from a typical office pbx |
| 01:48.09 | nasomi | http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/collaboration-endpoints/unified-ip-phone-7961g/product_data_sheet0900aecd802ff020.html |
| 01:48.25 | nasomi | might something like that be suitable |
| 02:19.47 | WIMPy | There are different opinions on Cisco phones Some say they are great, while others say that at least the SIP firmware is not that great. |
| 02:20.30 | WIMPy | And as far as the features go: Yes they are rather different, but that question is best answered by new users who haven't gotten used to Asterisk, yet. |
| 02:21.42 | WIMPy | But if you prefer things the 80s way, you should be fine :-) |
| 02:47.36 | *** join/#asterisk s7r (~s7r@openvpn/user/s7r) |
| 02:51.55 | ChannelZ | I don't have any experience with the non-SPA flavored Ciscos, but the SPAs are decent enough. |
| 03:02.21 | WIMPy | But they are's rela Ciscos. |
| 03:03.38 | WIMPy | I don't know more current models, but the 94x were shit at handling multiple calls. |
| 03:04.13 | WIMPy | But if you put an reflector above the display they make a goot desk lamp :-) |
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| 08:41.24 | toresbe | file: thanks for setting me on the right track yesterday - you saved me a great deal of time... it turned out to be a seriously weird bug in the router on this end. |
| 08:42.19 | starbuck | hi, got anyone a Cisco 7942 or 7941 with the latest software (SIP42.9-4-2-1S) working with asterisk? or any other version from the 9.x train? |
| 08:42.34 | Penguin | yes |
| 08:42.50 | Penguin | I just did a couple facilities with 7942s. |
| 08:44.28 | starbuck | Penguin, could you please paste your sip.conf (without the provider data) + the SEPMAC.CNF.XML ? |
| 08:44.35 | Penguin | no |
| 08:44.52 | starbuck | ok :) |
| 08:44.59 | Penguin | I don't have the sip.conf data at all. |
| 08:45.08 | Penguin | Let me see about a SEP file, though. |
| 08:45.13 | Penguin | What's your problem? |
| 08:46.23 | starbuck | i can get it working with the 8.x versions for the phone but not for the 9.x... i read that from those version upwards the only talk tcp with the PBX but i can't get it working, always stuck in registering |
| 08:48.15 | Penguin | Now that I don't know... |
| 08:48.48 | Penguin | I just know when I had to change the phones from SCCP to SIP, the phones had to load like 5 files from the tftpd. |
| 08:49.11 | starbuck | well, if you would be so kind to let me see the SEP file that would be great already, maybe the error lies there. |
| 08:49.16 | Penguin | If I would have been the one doing the asterisk config on those sites, I would be more than happy to look that up. |
| 08:51.55 | starbuck | I understand |
| 08:52.20 | Penguin | Sometimes they stick me in the field and I don't get to do backend configuration. |
| 08:52.35 | Penguin | The SEP file is pretty huge. Give me a minute. |
| 08:55.08 | starbuck | sure |
| 08:55.14 | starbuck | no hurry |
| 08:59.31 | Penguin | I do see that I have the old file that they didn't change the loadsInformation line... |
| 09:00.02 | Penguin | It has a SIP41 file name and we deployed it on 7942 phones. It was causing problems and I told him about it, but it didn't get fixed. |
| 09:00.36 | Penguin | I'll give it to you, but know that the file name is wrong. The rest of the file could be wrong as well. |
| 09:02.47 | starbuck | ok |
| 09:03.19 | starbuck | what firmware gets loaded? |
| 09:05.09 | Penguin | I know it was ultimately SIP42.9-something that the phones run. |
| 09:05.51 | starbuck | ah ok, nice |
| 09:06.51 | Penguin | But I also know that when the SEP files are in place, the last time the phone boots up, it says loading SIP41.9-something and then it chokes because they are 7942 phones... it says auth failed on SIP42.9-whatever, but then goes on to the regular screen with the proper software loaded. |
| 09:08.42 | starbuck | ok, this shouldn't be to hard to fix i guess |
| 09:10.19 | Penguin | I send the URL in private message. |
| 09:11.49 | Penguin | I'm sure it's jacked up. The guys doing this should have allowed me to take care of it. I would have researched it and created the file properly. |
| 09:16.47 | starbuck | i can see differences to my file, interesting. thanks a lot |
| 09:17.06 | starbuck | especially the proxy section is different |
| 09:18.34 | Penguin | There's a lot of stuff I probably would have left out. |
| 09:19.06 | Penguin | A bunch of useless stuff... especially if you've ever seen the minimal config I use for a 7940 SIP phone. |
| 09:20.42 | Penguin | 27 lines in an XMLDefault.cnf.xml, and 3 lines in a SIP<MAC>.cnf.xml |
| 09:20.55 | Penguin | for my 7960/7940 using SIP 8.11 |
| 09:23.39 | starbuck | i guess most of the stuff in the file you gave me is not important or maybe default values anyway |
| 09:24.43 | Penguin | yes |
| 09:24.56 | Penguin | I would have either put it in a defaults file or left it out totally. |
| 09:27.01 | starbuck | how long does it take your phones to configure the IP? |
| 09:27.25 | starbuck | it seems like ages with mine, they do get an IP from the DHCP server though |
| 09:27.49 | Penguin | It shouldn't take even a full minute. |
| 09:29.29 | starbuck | ok, then this is normal. |
| 09:30.09 | Penguin | 30-60 seconds? |
| 09:38.59 | starbuck | it takes about 90 seconds |
| 09:39.59 | Penguin | That's a little long, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. How many times do you really need to start it up once you've got it configured correctly, right? |
| 09:43.01 | starbuck | true, it should stay on all the time |
| 09:43.45 | starbuck | it's just, how long does it take to get a regular network device to get an IP from a DHCP server... a few seconds |
| 09:45.39 | Penguin | You're right. In theory it should only take long enough to send a discovery, receive an offer, and send an acceptance. |
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| 09:47.28 | Penguin | Once it does get an address, does it start looking for files? |
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| 09:49.19 | Penguin | Okay, well, it's 03:49 here and I haven't been to bed yet... so off I go. |
| 09:53.58 | starbuck | alright, have agood night and thanks again |
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| 11:28.23 | Li | can anyone tell me the file of main fucntion? |
| 11:28.29 | Li | or better tell me how to find it |
| 11:28.38 | Li | I'm already at https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Code+Review |
| 11:28.47 | Li | but I couldn't find anything regarding my question |
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| 12:00.17 | dkorras | Hi all, please can you assist me, I have entered my dynmic hostname but every time the IP address changes, I have to instruct Freepbx to detect the new external IP |
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| 12:15.05 | mazpe | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:15.15 | mazpe | number is to call, it should be routed too.. any suggestions how to go about this? |
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| 12:32.49 | johnny_|_ | Hi. I have asterisk 1.8 on linux. ldd /usr/sbin/asterisk | egrep 'ssl|srtp' returns libssl.so.1.0.0 => /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/i686/cmov/libssl.so.1.0.0 (0xb770a000). I set up everything as described in https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Secure+Calling+Tutorial but TLS port (5061) does not get binded. |
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| 16:28.19 | rsc | Not really asterisk specific but: What should a SIP server reply if some "garbage" is sent to 5060/UDP? |
| 16:31.48 | gusto | nothing |
| 16:32.43 | rsc | Just ignore and that's it? |
| 17:02.44 | WIMPy | Waht else could you do? |
| 17:03.09 | [sr] | WIMPy: after some googlin' saw some info that may be the bios batery, due to low voltage, so replaced it with a new one, and voilá, started working ok, but its for this AMD hardware, never had this issue on intel |
| 17:04.08 | WIMPy | Interesting. |
| 17:04.15 | WIMPy | Never heard of such a thing. |
| 17:07.45 | [sr] | neither do i |
| 17:07.50 | [sr] | what an odd thing |
| 17:08.00 | [sr] | in almost 20years of IT it was the 1st time |
| 17:08.32 | [sr] | now instead of saying that clock is unstable says: tsc: Refined TSC clocksource calibration: 2009.258 MHz |
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| 17:08.37 | [sr] | which is fine |
| 17:11.55 | [sr] | anyway this is an old amd machine.. as always, i always stay with the worst hardware for my internal use |
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| 17:13.12 | [sr] | im just waiting to see when it dies to replace it :) |
| 17:15.20 | bibz2 | hey guys. I've got a problem with my asterisk pbx.. I get the 486 everyone is busy or congested right now at random times.. I dial out over a sip trunk to mobiles. But this doesn't happen only to the trunk but also when I call a Siemens or Grandstream extension which is in the same network...I use asterisk 11.6-cert2 .. may this be a known bug? |
| 17:15.33 | bibz2 | unfortunately I haven't really found a solution through google.. |
| 17:15.40 | *** part/#asterisk johnny_|_ (~johnny@unaffiliated/johnny-/x-2623418) |
| 17:17.26 | bibz2 | can this be a codec problem? would a codec problem even cause a 486 busy/congested? |
| 17:18.03 | WIMPy | No, but a network problem would. |
| 17:18.18 | WIMPy | s/No/Unlikely/ |
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| 17:19.29 | bibz2 | hm ok. I also tought about that, but didn't want to have it true.. what is a good way to test/monitor the connection of the server? |
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| 18:56.11 | ChannelZ | is res_fax_digium EOL for asterisk 13? |
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| 21:01.32 | *** join/#asterisk bibz2 (bibz2@193-83-131-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:01.54 | bibz2 | hey guys. suddenly i'm getting this error: CDR direct execute failed |
| 21:02.46 | bibz2 | haven't changed anything today and it stopped working.. what could cause this? |
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| 21:31.04 | [sr] | maybe the db stoped |
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| 21:31.40 | bibz2 | it didn't.. it still works, only realtime cdr doesn't work |
| 21:31.52 | bibz2 | I guess the cdr table is corrupted or something |
| 21:32.15 | [sr] | myisam? |
| 21:32.31 | wdoekes | last time someone had that problem, it turned out he had a trigger on the cdr table that failed |
| 21:32.48 | wdoekes | try executing the query by hand and see what happens |
| 21:34.29 | bibz2 | thats actually a good idea, and yes there are some triggers on that table |
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| 21:38.27 | bibz2 | manually inserting into the table works |
| 21:38.58 | bibz2 | [2014-11-23 22:37:41] WARNING[1074][C-0000526b]: res_odbc.c:608 ast_odbc_direct_execute: SQL Execute error! Verifying connection to mw1 [mw1]... |
| 21:38.58 | bibz2 | [2014-11-23 22:37:42] ERROR[1074][C-0000526b]: cdr_odbc.c:162 odbc_log: CDR direct execute failed |
| 21:38.58 | bibz2 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 21:51.45 | dan_j | Hi. My /tmp directory is fulll of ast_fixed_jb files. What are they and can they be deleted? |
| 21:51.54 | dan_j | My hard disk is full because of them. |
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| 22:22.55 | debianlv | I'm reading the sip creation wiki and it says to copy sip.conf to sip.conf.sample and and create a new blank sip.conf to work with. Where should i create the new sip.conf? should it be in the same /etc/asterisk/ directory? and what should i do with old one? delete it? i'm sure this is a stupid question, but i'm trying to understand :) |
| 22:29.39 | debianlv | ok, seems like i can delete it and create a new one |
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| 22:35.09 | [TK]D-Fender | Thatès the idea. |
| 22:35.21 | [TK]D-Fender | you should never actually have the Ãsampleà config in place as an actual config |
| 22:35.27 | [TK]D-Fender | itès more of a syntax guide |
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| 22:40.08 | ChannelZ | Your keyboard has turned french or something. |
| 22:40.13 | [TK]D-Fender | I know.. |
| 22:40.30 | [TK]D-Fender | just rebuilt my PC and upgraded the OS and haven gotten this kink out yet |
| 22:40.49 | [TK]D-Fender | Even says US English |
| 22:41.45 | ChannelZ | hmm |
| 22:41.47 | [TK]D-Fender | Need to reboot to take effect properly I bet |
| 22:44.11 | Mikis | Hello! I'm interested in familiarizing myself with the asterisk source code and to maybe build something of my own/tinker around... are there any sources describing good development environments etc? |
| 22:44.35 | Mikis | I found some stuff about people trying to use Eclipse, and someone just using vim to edit directly, but cannot find anything conclusive :) |
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| 23:02.31 | ChannelZ | IDEs are a personal preference me thinks. |
| 23:03.04 | ChannelZ | So long as you can get it to control your compiler correctly, use whatever you like. |
| 23:03.38 | ChannelZ | Or just use your favorite text editor, and 'make' from the shell as appropriate. |
| 23:04.43 | Mikis | ChannelZ: thank you, yeah, but getting the visual aid from an IDE like Eclipse would help a lot when getting started |
| 23:05.01 | Mikis | vim I use daily but for a beast like asterisk... it's a bit tougher :) |
| 23:05.28 | Mikis | ChannelZ: do you develop for asterisk with vim? |
| 23:05.57 | Penguin | Beast? Asterisk is easy. |
| 23:06.15 | Penguin | You concentrate one a single file at a time using your favorite text editor. |
| 23:06.54 | Penguin | If you're using vim, make sure syntax is on. |
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| 23:08.23 | Mikis | Penguin: haha, I wish for the day when asterisk feels easy :-) I'll take your advice for it hehe |
| 23:09.28 | Mikis | Do you have any good vimrc-settings for developing with vim perhaps? |
| 23:10.04 | Penguin | I don't do development. |
| 23:10.27 | Penguin | I'm an admin, not a programmer. |
| 23:12.10 | Mikis | Ah :-) well thanks for your help |
| 23:21.30 | *** part/#asterisk debianlv (~User_Name@ip68-108-94-112.lv.lv.cox.net) |
| 23:25.02 | ChannelZ | I don't really hack much of the source either, just look usually. |