| 00:00.36 | *** join/#asterisk fstd_ (~fstd@unaffiliated/fisted) |
| 00:13.13 | *** join/#asterisk superscrat (~asanders@173-21-89-217.client.mchsi.com) |
| 00:18.17 | *** join/#asterisk oli-work (~oli-work@230.129.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) |
| 00:18.42 | oli-work | our asterisk just segfaulted |
| 00:18.54 | oli-work | Asterisk 12.8.2 |
| 00:18.56 | oli-work | [9059750.783575] asterisk[18827]: segfault at 10 ip 00007fb53de812c4 sp 00007fb46aba6cc0 error 4 in app_queue.so[7fb53de70000+33000] |
| 00:19.20 | oli-work | google results shows a similar looking bug but it's from 5 years ago //issues.asterisk.org/jira/browse/ASTERISK-14623 |
| 00:19.47 | oli-work | anyone able to shed some light on how to troubleshoot this/ |
| 00:19.51 | WIMPy | Did you get a core? |
| 00:19.58 | WIMPy | ~collectdebug |
| 00:19.59 | infobot | methinks collectdebug is a method of collecting logs allowing others help troubleshoot an issue. Refer to https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Collecting+Debug+Information |
| 00:20.48 | oli-work | unfortunately not |
| 00:21.48 | WIMPy | That doesn't give much to work on then. |
| 00:23.03 | oli-work | full => debug,error,notice,verbose,warning |
| 00:23.05 | oli-work | is what i have atm |
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| 00:23.17 | file | The 12 branch is also in security fix only |
| 00:23.41 | WIMPy | To debug a crash you really need the core. |
| 00:24.18 | oli-work | i'm not seeing it in the linked article. is that just adding "core" to that list of log levels? |
| 00:25.04 | file | https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Getting+a+Backtrace |
| 00:25.17 | WIMPy | No, you have to enable it in asterisk.con. |
| 00:25.22 | WIMPy | Or start it with -g. |
| 00:29.36 | oli-work | okay, next crash i'll start with core dumping |
| 00:30.25 | oli-work | ...or when i can restart it :) |
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| 01:45.19 | Katty | blames file |
| 01:45.39 | carrar | YEAH |
| 01:45.45 | carrar | totally guilty |
| 01:45.45 | Katty | hugs carrar |
| 01:46.00 | carrar | hugs Katty! |
| 01:46.11 | Katty | carrar have you tinkered with FS |
| 01:46.20 | carrar | FreeSwitch? |
| 01:46.26 | Katty | yes'r |
| 01:46.26 | carrar | a little |
| 01:46.35 | Katty | is the dial planning writing similar? |
| 01:46.41 | carrar | not at all |
| 01:46.46 | Katty | ok |
| 01:46.46 | carrar | it's all XML Based |
| 01:46.56 | WIMPy | Heretics! |
| 01:47.09 | Katty | i think you mean Well Rounded |
| 01:47.14 | carrar | haha |
| 01:47.21 | Katty | and by well rounded i mean i had an avocado tuna wrap for second dinner |
| 01:47.25 | WIMPy | Didn't it have a Dialplan module to make it like Asterisk? |
| 01:47.41 | carrar | I haven't spent much time with it honestly |
| 01:47.45 | Katty | i don't know diddly donutholes about FS |
| 01:47.49 | carrar | Maybe I will in Japan |
| 01:48.10 | Katty | you will be too busy getting hello kitty items. |
| 01:48.16 | Katty | and visiting cat cafes |
| 01:48.19 | carrar | true that |
| 01:48.20 | Katty | and the bunny island. |
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| 01:48.52 | carrar | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06zvM2x_lw |
| 01:49.18 | Katty | watches |
| 01:49.52 | Katty | THEY MOVE |
| 01:50.13 | WIMPy | It's life, jim! |
| 01:50.23 | carrar | I'm expecting everyone to be wearing those in Japan :) |
| 01:50.33 | Katty | WIMPy: and the japanese know it! |
| 01:50.48 | carrar | & dinner |
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| 03:45.51 | UncleKiwi | Hi there, what does it mean when i get a sip_reg_timeout |
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| 03:55.13 | UncleKiwi | can I run a program when a situation occurs in aterisk |
| 03:55.47 | UncleKiwi | ie if the registration timesout i want to run a script to reboot the router |
| 03:56.07 | UncleKiwi | or down/up the interface |
| 03:59.32 | WIMPy | Listen on AMI. |
| 04:01.04 | UncleKiwi | thanks WIMPy |
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| 07:26.51 | cervajs2 | is it possible get info about agent on break(pause) in dialplan? something like exten => _X.,n,AGENT(agent1) |
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| 08:40.17 | yun1989 | hello all |
| 08:40.36 | yun1989 | i have one problem in configure a sip trunk to a VigorIPPBX 2820 |
| 08:41.06 | yun1989 | my local asterisk not register in VigorIPPBX 2820 but i don't understand why ? can anyone help me ? |
| 08:42.48 | yun1989 | my configuration is http://pastebin.com/niWndtDb |
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| 09:11.09 | cervajs2 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 09:37.48 | yun1989 | what is the registration string ? @cervajs2 |
| 09:59.46 | yun1989 | the registration string is specific of vigorippbx ? |
| 10:00.08 | yun1989 | i have one local trunk between two asterisk's and it works correctly |
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| 10:28.48 | Hinou | Hello. |
| 10:33.19 | Hinou | My sip provider seams to split sip stream and send it with x others servers causing my asterisk (11.15.0 with freepbx 2.11) to trash the call. Is theire a known methode to accepte the seconde connexion ? |
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| 11:46.55 | cervajs2 | yun1989: i must be something like this register => [peer?][transport://]user[@domain][:secret[:authuser]]@host[:port][/extension][~expiry] |
| 11:47.48 | cervajs2 | yun1989: check example sip.conf in asterisk src dir |
| 11:48.09 | cervajs2 | yun1989: less configs/samples/sip.conf.sample |
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| 14:42.33 | leftleg | hello all |
| 14:44.35 | file | hi |
| 14:46.09 | WIMPy | lo |
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| 15:07.28 | [TK]D-Fender | med |
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| 15:19.58 | Resnik | I wonder, would this also receive and process calls from SIP trunk, https://github.com/pleasantone/alarmevent ? |
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| 15:28.16 | [TK]D-Fender | voip-info states it can work with G.711 |
| 15:28.35 | [TK]D-Fender | So nothing that implies TDM necessarily, but you do need the sample rate to support it |
| 15:28.52 | [TK]D-Fender | Of course your reliability goes right out the window |
| 15:30.37 | Resnik | can't find it under module administration tho |
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| 15:35.29 | [TK]D-Fender | What "module administration"? |
| 15:36.30 | Resnik | web -> Admin -> Module admin |
| 15:36.34 | *** join/#asterisk Rico (~rico@unaffiliated/rico29) |
| 15:37.34 | [TK]D-Fender | GUI's are not supported here at all. |
| 15:37.48 | Resnik | oh snap :o |
| 15:37.59 | Rico | got a problem with asterisk moh |
| 15:38.04 | Rico | latest 1.8 |
| 15:38.36 | Rico | musiconhold is not played the second time caller is put on hold - no media stream from asterisk to phone |
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| 15:38.40 | Rico | very strange |
| 15:39.11 | Rico | I'm looking for a corresponding bug in jira |
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| 16:04.23 | Rico | https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Upgrading+to+Asterisk+11 |
| 16:04.32 | Rico | does this applies for 1.8 to 11.x too ? |
| 16:06.27 | [TK]D-Fender | That applies to going to 11 |
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| 16:07.07 | Rico | ok |
| 16:07.16 | Rico | is upgrade from 1.8 to 11 painfull ? |
| 16:07.36 | Chainsaw | Rico: Wasn't for me, no. |
| 16:09.06 | malcolmd | in the Asterisk 11 tarball, UPGRADE-10.txt covers 1.8 to 10 and UPGRADE.txt contains 10 to 11 and all of the 11.x point releases |
| 16:09.22 | [TK]D-Fender | That page is also 2.5 years old |
| 16:09.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Starting a search with "did anyone have problems ever" is a counterproductive approach |
| 16:10.07 | [TK]D-Fender | 11's been out for years. |
| 16:10.12 | [TK]D-Fender | Bugs have been fixed |
| 16:10.16 | [TK]D-Fender | Changes have been made |
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| 16:54.35 | etherealmktg1 | hello room, silly question, im using freepbx and cannot for the life of me figure out the default credentials for isymphony |
| 16:54.47 | etherealmktg1 | the site says to use what i setup upon first login to the webgui, however, they do not work, when i check admin>isymphony it says manager as username and dots for the password, and as you may know i cannot change the password in dots there for that is how freepbx connects to isymphony |
| 16:54.57 | etherealmktg1 | ive tried manager/maint/admin and the admin's username for credentials and various comobinations of passwords, with no luck |
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| 16:55.53 | etherealmktg1 | the tutorial for initial setup is not helping, as i have tried various combinations and have multiple instances of the OS running and they are all producing the same result |
| 16:56.05 | etherealmktg1 | btw i am going to the administrator/admin page, not the client/client page |
| 16:56.13 | etherealmktg1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:59.01 | [TK]D-Fender | Remember that this is not the place for that sort of question. GUI support is only in their respective channels |
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| 17:41.55 | _abc__ | Is it ok to use a ! In the extensions.conf after short local dial numbers to accelerate response? F.ex. Voice mai no etc? |
| 17:44.34 | [TK]D-Fender | _abc__: If there could be a longer match it will wait when it's supposed to wait regardless. |
| 17:44.43 | [TK]D-Fender | _abc__: You don't seem to understand what ! is.... |
| 17:56.05 | wanda_ | hi people, I'm register in 2 ML asterisk.org. I have short message to share here. it's ok? |
| 17:56.18 | wanda_ | :) |
| 17:56.48 | wanda_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:57.47 | robmal | What is this mumble that you speak of? |
| 17:58.54 | robmal | Oh, teamspeak clone. Nvm. |
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| 18:03.14 | wanda_ | robmal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumble_%28software%29 |
| 18:03.36 | wanda_ | it's just topic than people want to speak |
| 18:03.43 | robmal | Yes, teamspeak. |
| 18:04.03 | wanda_ | I note the question, people give advices, I write a summary and I share :) |
| 18:05.15 | wanda_ | it's a barcamp so everybody can share advices, questions, to present a project.. .:) |
| 18:05.48 | wanda_ | nice moment because we are a little community and it's great to better know each other |
| 18:06.20 | *** join/#asterisk Cyford33 (~cyford@c-73-207-183-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 18:07.11 | *** join/#asterisk Cyford33 (~cyford@c-73-207-183-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 18:20.31 | *** join/#asterisk superscrat (asanders@nat/digium/x-txehbzgqvkrjixce) |
| 18:20.42 | *** join/#asterisk riess82 (~riessma@178-191-140-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
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| 18:28.21 | eschmidbauer | from a customer "I just tested the on hold music again and it still sounds like it's coming out of a garbage can, rolling down a hill." |
| 18:32.40 | *** join/#asterisk darkbasic (~quassel@niko.linuxsystems.it) |
| 18:33.32 | Resnik | I got one strange error reporting in asterisk utils.c:1645 tvfix: warning too large timestamp |
| 18:34.10 | eschmidbauer | sounds like your tv needs a fixin' |
| 18:34.24 | Resnik | :s |
| 18:43.21 | *** join/#asterisk areski (~areski@80.174.128.88.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 18:54.00 | *** join/#asterisk MrNewbie (02333486@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.51.52.134) |
| 18:54.34 | MrNewbie | hello |
| 18:55.18 | MrNewbie | i am facing a problem with asterisk |
| 18:55.29 | MrNewbie | i can call users but i cant hear anything |
| 18:55.58 | MrNewbie | but when i try echo test, everything seems to be working fine |
| 18:56.38 | [TK]D-Fender | Then you have a networking setup issue, most likely involving improper NAT setup |
| 18:57.38 | MrNewbie | when both clients are on the same LAN it works fine |
| 18:57.50 | MrNewbie | when both clients are connected via VPN works fine |
| 18:58.12 | *** join/#asterisk pppingme (~pppingme@unaffiliated/pppingme) |
| 18:58.26 | MrNewbie | when both users are connected via 4g/3g then it stops working and echo server is the only thing working |
| 18:59.49 | MrNewbie | how can i debug this ??? |
| 18:59.56 | [TK]D-Fender | "sip set debug on" <- go look at the call and what is being negotiated |
| 19:02.55 | [TK]D-Fender | ~pb |
| 19:02.56 | infobot | A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few: http://www.pastebin.com, http://pastebin.ca, http://channels.debian.net/paste, http://paste.lisp.org, http://bin.cakephp.org/; or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude. |
| 19:02.57 | [TK]D-Fender | ^^^ |
| 19:04.25 | MrNewbie | its saying Transimitting (no NAT) |
| 19:04.54 | *** join/#asterisk kplong (~kplong@c-73-53-31-109.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 19:05.09 | MrNewbie | but in freepbx i configured NAT to yes |
| 19:05.38 | kplong | Howdy - I'm looking at https://issues.asterisk.org/jira/browse/ASTERISK-17899 - I see it is marked as fix with the target release for 11 being 11.17.0 - does that mean that 11.17.0 actually has this fix/feature? Thanks |
| 19:05.45 | [TK]D-Fender | Then you have not configured it properly. Also, this is not jsut some single setting you need to make |
| 19:05.50 | [TK]D-Fender | There are a PILE of them |
| 19:05.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Also per externsion, trunk, etc |
| 19:06.05 | *** join/#asterisk Cuzner (~ccuzner@198.41.29.45) |
| 19:09.08 | MrNewbie | ok NAT is now enabled per extentions i can see (NAT) |
| 19:09.53 | [TK]D-Fender | There is still MORE than a dumb checkbox or two for this. You have to specify your WAN IP, local networks, have the proper ports forwarded, prevent reinvites on all of your endpoints.... |
| 19:10.21 | *** join/#asterisk robink_ (~quassel@unaffilated/robink) |
| 19:10.21 | MrNewbie | [TK]D-Fender: all done |
| 19:10.48 | [TK]D-Fender | then if it's still failing show us something |
| 19:10.59 | [TK]D-Fender | [14:59][TK]D-Fender"sip set debug on" <- go look at the call and what is being negotiated |
| 19:11.32 | MrNewbie | i'll send u a pastbin log, gimmy a sec |
| 19:13.11 | *** join/#asterisk thiagoc (~thiagoc@unaffiliated/thiagoc) |
| 19:26.17 | MrNewbie | [TK]D-Fender: pm'ed |
| 19:26.48 | hatlessman | Anybody use any WebRTC clients? |
| 19:29.33 | *** join/#asterisk robink_ (~quassel@unaffilated/robink) |
| 19:29.57 | MrNewbie | From: "Unknown" <sip:Unknown@my.server.public.ip>;tag=as60e2729a <--- i found this at the end |
| 19:30.06 | MrNewbie | what may have coused this ? |
| 19:33.55 | [TK]D-Fender | MrNewbie: You only showed me your PB and they'd have to see the whole comm to know where that line is even occuring |
| 19:34.00 | [TK]D-Fender | MrNewbie: And it doesn't matter here |
| 19:34.24 | [TK]D-Fender | Describe how your server is connected to the internet |
| 19:34.28 | *** join/#asterisk marceloamorim (~marcelo@189-90-192-72.isimples.com.br) |
| 19:35.10 | *** join/#asterisk DivideBy0 (~DivideBy0@unaffiliated/divideby0x0) |
| 19:35.39 | danielbw | if i blind transfer someone to an extension, how can I get the device that did the blind transfer? |
| 19:36.55 | [TK]D-Fender | ${BLINDTRANSFER} |
| 19:36.57 | [TK]D-Fender | ^ |
| 19:37.05 | [TK]D-Fender | read up on your Asterisk Standard Variables |
| 19:50.53 | danielbw | ok, will do |
| 19:50.59 | danielbw | [TK]D-Fender: thanks |
| 19:53.31 | *** join/#asterisk darkbasic (~quassel@niko.linuxsystems.it) |
| 20:03.04 | *** join/#asterisk bananabas (~bananabas@151.62.60.200) |
| 20:04.12 | bananabas | i need a sip service for international calls to landlines, like google voice or skype but non-proprietary. what do you recommend? |
| 20:05.29 | *** join/#asterisk Cyford33_v (~cyford@c-73-207-183-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 20:06.02 | [TK]D-Fender | ~itsplist-us |
| 20:06.02 | infobot | Here are some popular ITSPs (USA) starting with the more respected ones: http://www.broadvoice.com, http://www.jnctn.com, http://www.sipstation.com, http://vitelity.net, http://voip.ms and http://flowroute.com |
| 20:07.03 | bananabas | i prefer Europe, as I live here and want to call another european country |
| 20:07.56 | bananabas | also, my bank is here, and EU wire transfers have no comission |
| 20:08.07 | [TK]D-Fender | we have few listed as to they COMPANY being in EU. |
| 20:08.12 | [TK]D-Fender | Doesn't eman the rates aren't good... |
| 20:08.30 | [TK]D-Fender | But go shop around. I don't have any real recommendations |
| 20:08.39 | bananabas | few means 0? |
| 20:09.16 | [TK]D-Fender | ~itsplist-uk |
| 20:09.17 | infobot | itsplist-uk is, like, UK based ITSps include http://www.voiptalk.org/ http://www.voipon.co.uk/ http://www.gradwell.com/ and a few other tinpot companies you can dig up with google. |
| 20:09.26 | [TK]D-Fender | for starters |
| 20:09.46 | *** join/#asterisk MrNewbie_ (02334c14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.51.76.20) |
| 20:10.05 | bananabas | but do they use free software? |
| 20:10.19 | [TK]D-Fender | Not sure what you're getting at |
| 20:10.23 | [TK]D-Fender | They are a SERVICE |
| 20:10.26 | [TK]D-Fender | YOU have the software |
| 20:10.44 | bananabas | they use software internally |
| 20:10.51 | bananabas | like asterisk, right? |
| 20:11.05 | [TK]D-Fender | Who knows what they're using... you never see any of that. |
| 20:11.17 | [TK]D-Fender | What is your goal in this line of questioning? |
| 20:11.27 | bananabas | haha thats exactly why i asked for a recommendation |
| 20:11.38 | bananabas | because i figured you guys might know |
| 20:12.46 | [TK]D-Fender | Most providers use proprietary hardware and propritary software in their solution and none of that impacts you in the slightest |
| 20:14.22 | bananabas | That's like saying most clothes manufacturers use slave labor and none of that impacts me because the clothes are fine. |
| 20:15.27 | WIMPy | Like: In (pseudo) telephony most of Europe is outsourced to China? |
| 20:16.41 | *** join/#asterisk sparetire_ (~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire) |
| 20:17.20 | bananabas | Also, google and skype are proprietary solutions that work |
| 20:18.01 | Cuzner | why's voxbone not on the list of good itsp's? |
| 20:18.13 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas: There is a difference between the SOFTWARE being proprietary and the PROTOCOL being proprietary |
| 20:18.36 | [TK]D-Fender | Cuzner: Because they haven't been recommended to someone who'd update the bot to reflect that |
| 20:18.49 | Cuzner | good answer |
| 20:19.02 | Cuzner | likes Voxbone :) |
| 20:19.02 | WIMPy | But realistically, SIP is not really a standard. |
| 20:19.21 | Cuzner | COLT... not so much |
| 20:19.38 | [TK]D-Fender | WIMPy: More like a Gordian-Knot of "suggestions" ;) |
| 20:20.02 | bananabas | AFAIK SIP is not a proprietary protocol. |
| 20:20.32 | WIMPy | It's a little like GAP, you know that placing, answering and ending calls SHOULD work, and EVERYTING else is hit or miss. |
| 20:21.57 | *** join/#asterisk Chainsaw (~chainsaw@gentoo/developer/chainsaw) |
| 20:22.39 | bananabas | The reason I asked on this channel is I because I thought you care about FOSS. |
| 20:23.24 | WIMPy | I think it's pretty safe to say that none of the classic telcos use FOSS. |
| 20:23.54 | bananabas | Really? |
| 20:24.08 | WIMPy | It is known that Sipgate used Asterisk before switching to FreeSwitch. |
| 20:24.53 | bananabas | OK so maybe I don't get how SIP works. |
| 20:25.02 | WIMPy | They usually don't operate their equipment themselves any more, and who would rent out any FOSS to them? |
| 20:25.43 | bananabas | I send packages to them and they relay it to copper lines right |
| 20:25.47 | WIMPy | Not sure what that has to do with SIP? |
| 20:25.56 | WIMPy | Copper? |
| 20:26.14 | bananabas | As in, standard phone lines. |
| 20:26.34 | WIMPy | What's a standard phone line? Where do you get that? |
| 20:26.47 | bananabas | I am asking ;) |
| 20:27.00 | WIMPy | It's all virtual. All you need is IP, how ever you might get that. |
| 20:27.22 | Cuzner | SIP is SIP until you want it to hit the PSTN |
| 20:27.31 | bananabas | PSTN? |
| 20:27.40 | *** join/#asterisk janicez (janicez@depressed.and.lonely.mycafe.ga) |
| 20:27.42 | WIMPy | ~pstn |
| 20:27.58 | infobot | [pstn] Public Switched Telephone Network, or "please stop the nonsense" |
| 20:27.58 | Cuzner | http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pstn |
| 20:28.01 | WIMPy | Public Switched Telephone Network |
| 20:28.17 | WIMPy | Wow. That was late. |
| 20:28.30 | bananabas | yes so thats what the person at the other end uses |
| 20:28.34 | bananabas | PSTN |
| 20:28.52 | WIMPy | Maybe. They are just as likely to use SIP as well. |
| 20:28.58 | Cuzner | bananabas: they might be... but they may be using sip too |
| 20:29.03 | Cuzner | WIMPy: :D |
| 20:29.04 | WIMPy | Maybe without knowing it. |
| 20:29.19 | bananabas | but wouldnt they need an IP phone for that' |
| 20:29.22 | janicez | SIP is the future |
| 20:29.30 | Cuzner | lots of cable companies are selling "home phone" service, which is just voip w/ ATAs for people's old phones. |
| 20:29.39 | WIMPy | A horrible furure of the dark past! |
| 20:29.58 | WIMPy | If you order a phone line what happens? |
| 20:30.10 | WIMPy | You usually get a parcel with some hardware to connecto to the internet. |
| 20:30.16 | [TK]D-Fender | checkout time, BBIAB |
| 20:30.23 | Cuzner | cya D-Fender |
| 20:30.26 | janicez | kezk |
| 20:30.29 | WIMPy | And there's your phone "line". |
| 20:30.47 | WIMPy | Works like shit, but who cares? |
| 20:31.05 | janicez | WIMPy: The customer, of course |
| 20:31.13 | WIMPy | No |
| 20:31.28 | janicez | Enter: The alliance of discerning telephone users |
| 20:31.44 | WIMPy | Where can I join that? |
| 20:31.52 | janicez | Right here. |
| 20:31.53 | bananabas | I know for a fact the person im calling has an old phone |
| 20:32.10 | janicez | Just say "I am now a member of the alliance of discerning telephone users" |
| 20:32.17 | WIMPy | That doens't mean it's connected to a rel phone line. |
| 20:32.35 | bananabas | its definately not connected to the internet |
| 20:32.47 | janicez | bananabas: are you sure of that? |
| 20:32.52 | WIMPy | janicez: That's well known already. |
| 20:33.01 | WIMPy | Yes, how do you know? |
| 20:33.01 | janicez | WIMPy: wat? |
| 20:33.18 | bananabas | jacobkiers, how can 90s phone possibly be connected to the internet |
| 20:33.29 | janicez | bananabas: through an ATA. |
| 20:33.30 | bananabas | jacobkiers, sorry |
| 20:33.34 | WIMPy | janicez: That my standards are a lot higher than what SIP can deliver. |
| 20:33.47 | janicez | WIMPy: Ha. |
| 20:33.53 | WIMPy | Through that little plasic box that cam in the parcel. |
| 20:34.21 | bananabas | no parcel ever came :p |
| 20:34.45 | WIMPy | And no technician carrying one, either? |
| 20:34.47 | drmessano | or a box on the exterior wall |
| 20:34.52 | WIMPy | Never in the last 15 years? |
| 20:35.04 | bananabas | ok i cant be sure of that |
| 20:35.08 | drmessano | ISPs here have deployed "Outside ATAs" |
| 20:35.43 | WIMPy | Here they would be placed on the curb rather than at the house. |
| 20:35.53 | drmessano | Interesting |
| 20:35.53 | WIMPy | So in that case you'd never see anythgn change. |
| 20:36.04 | bananabas | but i find it strange i have to register to some american company in order to call an european landline from europe |
| 20:36.04 | hatlessman | 90s phone? I've got a rotary phone from the 60s connected with an Iaxy2 |
| 20:36.07 | WIMPy | But the "line" would behave differently, off course. |
| 20:36.31 | drmessano | An iaxy? Are you a museum? |
| 20:36.38 | bananabas | :D |
| 20:36.47 | Cuzner | bananabas: I told you like 30 minutes ago |
| 20:36.56 | WIMPy | He, they weren't that bad. |
| 20:37.05 | hatlessman | iaxy _2_ THANK YOU.... and yes, :( |
| 20:37.08 | Cuzner | sorry, 10 minutes ago |
| 20:37.09 | Cuzner | [04:29pm] <Cuzner> lots of cable companies are selling "home phone" service, which is just voip w/ ATAs for people's old phones. |
| 20:37.11 | *** join/#asterisk yoyolala (~yoyolala@unaffiliated/yoyolala) |
| 20:37.42 | Cuzner | and yes, some ATAs support pulse dialling |
| 20:37.55 | bananabas | Cuzner, yes so |
| 20:38.05 | drmessano | But most dont support ringing an electric bell :) |
| 20:38.13 | drmessano | or should I say, mechanical |
| 20:38.23 | drmessano | They half-ring lol |
| 20:38.37 | WIMPy | Oh, a new feature! |
| 20:38.50 | Cuzner | WIMPy: ugh, the f word |
| 20:39.05 | drmessano | I put a WE 500 on a PAP2 and it sound like it was wounded |
| 20:39.30 | bananabas | Cuzner, so let's say Bob wants to call Alice |
| 20:39.45 | WIMPy | A call back? |
| 20:39.45 | drmessano | Alice is cheating on Bob |
| 20:39.50 | WIMPy | scnr |
| 20:39.53 | bananabas | Alice is on a "home phone" |
| 20:39.58 | bananabas | drmessano, probably |
| 20:40.13 | drmessano | Bob should call Stacy after |
| 20:40.17 | drmessano | On her cell phone |
| 20:40.18 | bananabas | in a different country from Bob's |
| 20:40.19 | drmessano | naked |
| 20:40.30 | carrar | but if Bob puts Alice on hold, where does Alice get the hold music from |
| 20:40.31 | bananabas | he will, but he must first call Alice |
| 20:40.46 | drmessano | I wouldnt break up with Alice over VoIP |
| 20:40.49 | *** join/#asterisk darkbasic_ (~quassel@niko.linuxsystems.it) |
| 20:40.51 | drmessano | Use SMS instead |
| 20:41.08 | bananabas | he cannot, because he doesnt have a phone |
| 20:41.14 | bananabas | and Alice doesnt have internet |
| 20:41.19 | drmessano | Oh |
| 20:41.21 | bananabas | at least not in the conventional sense |
| 20:41.24 | Resnik | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:41.24 | carrar | What Mike calls Alice |
| 20:41.27 | carrar | What if |
| 20:41.31 | WIMPy | Well, the Sm would at least be delivered intact. |
| 20:41.32 | drmessano | Alice is a Quaker? |
| 20:41.56 | bananabas | Alice cannot receive SMS because she has no mobile phone |
| 20:42.01 | drmessano | Wait, wait |
| 20:42.11 | drmessano | The Answer is GILLIGANS ISLAND |
| 20:42.14 | drmessano | WHat do I win????? |
| 20:42.18 | WIMPy | Funny thing is that we have a Telco branded Alice. |
| 20:42.33 | bananabas | her phone might be connected to the internet, but she doesnt know that |
| 20:42.35 | Cuzner | bananabas: is Alice's "home phone" on the pstn or a VOIP/ATA setup? |
| 20:42.45 | Cuzner | same question for Bob |
| 20:43.07 | bananabas | Cuzner, Bob has no home phone. He is using a wifi connection. |
| 20:43.10 | *** join/#asterisk superscrat (asanders@nat/digium/x-hkxyickjuewdfgyy) |
| 20:43.25 | Cuzner | and a voip provider for telephony? |
| 20:43.27 | bananabas | Alice's phone might or might not be VOIP. |
| 20:43.42 | drmessano | What are we trying to solve |
| 20:43.42 | bananabas | Alice doesnt know and neither does Bob. |
| 20:43.59 | Cuzner | drmessano: no idea... he's taking a long time to get to the actual question... |
| 20:44.15 | bananabas | Cuzner, Bob doesnt have a voip provider |
| 20:44.20 | drmessano | Bob has erectile dysfunction |
| 20:44.22 | WIMPy | We're not in the solving department any more. We moved over to slam (not so) poetry. |
| 20:44.24 | bananabas | he only has internet |
| 20:44.34 | Cuzner | bananabas: so he can't make a call... |
| 20:44.35 | drmessano | Alice suffers from Bubonic Plague |
| 20:44.43 | drmessano | Bob and Alice are lesbians |
| 20:44.59 | bananabas | Cuzner, he cant. but maybe over the internet he can call her |
| 20:45.06 | Cuzner | with what? |
| 20:45.09 | drmessano | Skype |
| 20:45.19 | bananabas | for example |
| 20:45.27 | Cuzner | yep, that would work as Skype has a VOIP -> PSTN gateway service. |
| 20:45.56 | drmessano | Bob needs Skype |
| 20:46.01 | bananabas | but Bob doesnt like skype |
| 20:46.02 | Cuzner | so he does have a voip provider |
| 20:46.03 | *** part/#asterisk kplong (~kplong@c-73-53-31-109.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 20:46.05 | Cuzner | it is skype |
| 20:46.09 | drmessano | He can download it from voipnewbs.com/isuck |
| 20:46.19 | drmessano | Bob is an idiot |
| 20:46.32 | drmessano | Bob is picky |
| 20:46.40 | bananabas | He is, indeed. |
| 20:47.08 | bananabas | Bob wants a VOIP provider which is not friends with the NSA |
| 20:47.09 | drmessano | Bob should chew on the business end of a toaster power cord, in the tub |
| 20:47.39 | drmessano | Alice deserves better |
| 20:47.39 | bananabas | really cracking up here |
| 20:47.56 | bananabas | but at least now you guys understand Bob's problem |
| 20:48.10 | Cuzner | we do? |
| 20:48.10 | WIMPy | I guess Bob could move to Africa or the UAE or something. No guarateens, though. |
| 20:48.11 | drmessano | Yes, Bob is wasting O2 |
| 20:48.37 | drmessano | bananabas, just to be serious and clear |
| 20:48.48 | WIMPy | O2 as in Alice? |
| 20:48.58 | drmessano | Bob has a smartphone with Wifi.. Alice only has a home phone... yes? |
| 20:49.02 | Cuzner | bananabas: any time you're dealing with voice traffic, wether it be on a voip network or PSTN, it's inheirently insecure. |
| 20:49.16 | drmessano | Bob should go to his app store and download one of 100 different "Voice Calling" apps and try one til he's happy |
| 20:49.16 | WIMPy | (For those far away both Alice and O2 are brands of Telefonica.) |
| 20:49.17 | Cuzner | if you're looking for a secure communication channel, phones are not your friend. |
| 20:49.20 | bananabas | Bob has no smartphone no |
| 20:49.20 | beardy | But fax is always secure. |
| 20:49.23 | drmessano | Because Bob is a moron |
| 20:49.33 | bananabas | because Bob is poor |
| 20:49.54 | WIMPy | So what does Bob have? |
| 20:49.56 | drmessano | So Bob has no device? |
| 20:49.56 | Cuzner | That is, unless you're running both ingress and egress for the connection, AND you're encrypting both your media and signalling. |
| 20:50.04 | drmessano | So how the hell does Bob expect this to work? |
| 20:50.15 | beardy | Alice is not happy with the size of Bob's device. |
| 20:50.15 | WIMPy | Did someone do a chan_smokesignal, yet? |
| 20:50.27 | bananabas | Bob has a laptop |
| 20:50.32 | drmessano | ^ Skype |
| 20:50.45 | drmessano | Anything else is a softphone to some random ITSP |
| 20:51.17 | drmessano | Skype or <some SIP softphone> to <some SIP provider> |
| 20:51.18 | Cuzner | bananabas: you're looking for sRTP + TLS if you want secure VOIP. |
| 20:51.35 | Cuzner | end-to-end, with no leg on the PSTN |
| 20:51.39 | WIMPy | But that would rule out any ITSP. |
| 20:51.46 | Cuzner | yep |
| 20:51.46 | drmessano | Alice has no internet |
| 20:51.50 | Cuzner | he'd have to own it all |
| 20:51.51 | drmessano | She only has POTS |
| 20:51.55 | drmessano | So no dice |
| 20:51.57 | Cuzner | then she's fubar |
| 20:51.59 | bananabas | exactly |
| 20:52.04 | Cuzner | she's on something that can be tapped. |
| 20:52.11 | drmessano | So this wont work at all if you need something secure |
| 20:52.14 | bananabas | i see |
| 20:52.15 | WIMPy | There's just no way for a secure communication between these instances of Alice and Bob. |
| 20:52.22 | bananabas | ok |
| 20:52.27 | bananabas | i understand |
| 20:52.32 | bananabas | i will tell Bob |
| 20:52.39 | drmessano | Are you Bob? |
| 20:52.47 | WIMPy | Maybe dial-up internet over POTS if that still exists somewhere. |
| 20:52.55 | bananabas | of course not |
| 20:53.08 | drmessano | bananabas, it's ok, lots of men have ED |
| 20:53.09 | Cuzner | bananabas: does where i live. |
| 20:53.26 | bananabas | im starting to like this channel |
| 20:53.26 | Cuzner | i can still find a dialup provider in my area if i needed it. |
| 20:53.30 | bananabas | :D |
| 20:54.09 | bananabas | sl |
| 20:54.26 | bananabas | so SIP softphone can be Ekiga, for instance? |
| 20:54.44 | drmessano | SIP softphones can be a lot of things.. they mostly suck |
| 20:54.45 | Cuzner | X-lite and Bria are popular choices |
| 20:54.52 | WIMPy | Of of several hundred examples. |
| 20:55.34 | Cuzner | jitsi clients, if you like java |
| 20:55.52 | drmessano | kills java with fire |
| 20:55.57 | bananabas | but <SIP-provider> is the sucky part by far |
| 20:56.20 | Cuzner | what does that even mean? |
| 20:56.30 | bananabas | i mean, Ekiga suggests to use diamondcard |
| 20:56.55 | bananabas | which only accept upwards of 100USD by wire transfer |
| 20:57.12 | bananabas | and if not, you need to open a paypal account |
| 20:57.32 | bananabas | i mean, if this is the SIP provider suggested by the FSF |
| 20:57.35 | Cuzner | you can use any sip provider you want and any sip client you want |
| 20:57.41 | Cuzner | stop obsessing over ekiga |
| 20:57.48 | WIMPy | Worldwide! |
| 20:57.50 | bananabas | then what should i expect of the rest |
| 20:57.54 | bananabas | yes ok i know that |
| 20:58.01 | Cuzner | do your own fucking research if you're as paranoid as you're making yourself out to be. |
| 20:58.37 | bananabas | that was uncalled for |
| 20:58.43 | Cuzner | no, it really wasn't. |
| 21:00.59 | drmessano | Isnt Ekiga abandonware? |
| 21:01.07 | drmessano | No updates in like 2 years? |
| 21:01.08 | Cuzner | shrugs |
| 21:02.27 | Cuzner | bananabas: even big telcos offer VOIP trunking services now... Level3, Verizon, etc... You don't want the traffic to hit the US, so find out if your own local telcos offer ITSP services if you think you can trust them more. |
| 21:03.41 | bananabas | Cuzner, i'm sorry, maybe you live in the US and felt offended. |
| 21:04.06 | Cuzner | Not offended, and I don't live in the US :) |
| 21:04.22 | Cuzner | your line of questioning is just getting tiresome |
| 21:04.37 | *** join/#asterisk brad_mssw (~brad@66.129.88.50) |
| 21:04.42 | bananabas | ok i appologise |
| 21:04.43 | drmessano | bananabas, your questions are broad and almost open ended. Youre asking for specifics along the same lines as asking "Which Linux distro is the bestest?" |
| 21:04.54 | drmessano | Depends on need.. Research. |
| 21:04.59 | Cuzner | drmessano understands :) |
| 21:05.14 | Cuzner | BMW makes the best cars! |
| 21:05.42 | drmessano | We solved the technical aspect for you. You need to find which solution fits best within the prescribed scenario |
| 21:06.40 | drmessano | Desktop application + some provider.. whether it's a provider that offers service through their app (Skype) or a SIP softphone and choose-your-own |
| 21:07.07 | drmessano | The rest is whatever works for you. I dont think anyone here wants to spend days being a SIP provider google proxy |
| 21:07.19 | bananabas | of course not. |
| 21:07.33 | Cuzner | bananabas: the long and the short of it is... you'll never have a secure line of communication unless you control all aspects of it... The second you outsource a piece of it to an outside party, you're suceptable to attacks/intrusions. |
| 21:08.00 | bananabas | i just thought someone here might have experience with different SIP providers |
| 21:08.17 | bananabas | if it comes to googling i can do that of course |
| 21:08.23 | Cuzner | we have a ton of experience with a ton of providers. |
| 21:08.37 | Cuzner | there are literally hundreds of thousands of ITSPs out there. |
| 21:08.59 | bananabas | ok |
| 21:09.07 | bananabas | i had no idea there were so many |
| 21:09.08 | Cuzner | that being said, level3 is the devil |
| 21:09.38 | Cuzner | windstream and verizon are almost as bad :P |
| 21:10.18 | bananabas | its like, if someone asked me what os to install, id probably say not windows or macos. and then recommend maybe 3 or 4 of my favourite linux distros |
| 21:10.26 | bananabas | thats what i meant |
| 21:10.35 | bananabas | with my general questions |
| 21:10.57 | bananabas | i could of course equally well say "google OS" |
| 21:10.59 | *** part/#asterisk _abc__ (~user@unaffiliated/ccbbaa) |
| 21:11.16 | Cuzner | i'm out, later boys. |
| 21:11.33 | bananabas | Cuzner, thanks for your time, really! |
| 21:11.41 | bananabas | i appreciate it |
| 21:12.35 | bananabas | does my comparison make sense? |
| 21:13.09 | bananabas | or is the situation that "they are all equally bad" so it doesnt really matter which i choose |
| 21:13.59 | drmessano | Some are bad, some are good. Also depends on need |
| 21:14.18 | drmessano | Skype works extrememly well for what it does.. but I wouldnt use it for my business PBX |
| 21:14.28 | bananabas | well, since secure communication is pretty much out of the picture |
| 21:14.46 | bananabas | it should at least provide decent speed |
| 21:14.47 | bananabas | i.e. quality |
| 21:15.53 | bananabas | but can asterisk be used for what skype does for instance |
| 21:16.42 | *** join/#asterisk yoyolala (~yoyolala@unaffiliated/yoyolala) |
| 21:19.09 | drmessano | You dont need Asterisk for one user |
| 21:22.44 | *** join/#asterisk fstd (~fstd@unaffiliated/fisted) |
| 21:23.28 | bananabas | ok but do SIP providers use Asterisk? |
| 21:23.33 | *** join/#asterisk fstd (~fstd@unaffiliated/fisted) |
| 21:24.19 | *** join/#asterisk [TK]D-Fender (~joe@64.235.216.2) |
| 21:24.39 | K0HAX | bananabas: sometimes, for weird situations where an off-the-shelf PBX doesn't work, yes. Asterisk makes a great VoIP dev kit |
| 21:25.07 | bananabas | so if i were to become a SIP provider tomorrow |
| 21:25.12 | K0HAX | for normal tandem or access trunk services, nope. |
| 21:25.19 | bananabas | what would i need besides asterisk |
| 21:25.20 | K0HAX | (at least not big huge ones) |
| 21:25.37 | K0HAX | that depends on where you are operating |
| 21:25.57 | bananabas | geographical location? |
| 21:26.01 | bananabas | europe |
| 21:26.14 | drmessano | bananabas, you dont want to be one of those backyard ITSPs.. thats akin to some guy becoming a "Hosting provider" because he has 3 websites on his apache box in his basement closet |
| 21:26.34 | K0HAX | I couldn't answer that, I don't know the laws there. ;) In the US you'd need general council first |
| 21:26.35 | drmessano | Go big or go home |
| 21:27.24 | K0HAX | INAL |
| 21:29.30 | drmessano | bananabas, you need a reliable (99.99999999999% uptime) connection, server, and knowledge to keep it running. You also need wholesale VoIP rates so you can resell and actually make money.. which goes back to the knowledge part |
| 21:29.47 | drmessano | ^ that is disheartening |
| 21:30.09 | WIMPy | 99.7% is fine. The classic telcos don't offer more, either. |
| 21:30.57 | *** join/#asterisk bananabas (~bananabas@151.62.60.200) |
| 21:31.06 | drmessano | I was exaggerating a bit to make a point. 88% off a home DSL connection wont cut it |
| 21:31.37 | bananabas | sorry laptop died |
| 21:31.41 | WIMPy | Err. sorry. I meant 97. |
| 21:31.44 | bananabas | anyway |
| 21:31.51 | WIMPy | Standard service level. |
| 21:32.03 | bananabas | i dont plan to become a SIP provider |
| 21:32.19 | bananabas | i wanted to know what they use so i can rate them |
| 21:32.25 | WIMPy | And as Deutsche Telekom found out, it's not that big a problem if you're down for several days several times. |
| 21:32.42 | WIMPy | Ask them or try them. |
| 21:34.06 | bananabas | in your hosting provider comparison, if i see a server uses apache or nginx thats already better than if its using, say IIS |
| 21:34.33 | drmessano | That wasnt my point at all |
| 21:35.25 | bananabas | im not saying it was your point |
| 21:35.25 | bananabas | im saying this is my point |
| 21:35.25 | bananabas | your point was dont become a sip without the infrastructure |
| 21:35.26 | drmessano | There is a difference between a hosting provider and an 800mhz P3 with 512MB RAM sitting in a basement hosting 3 websites on a DSL connection |
| 21:35.36 | bananabas | of course! |
| 21:35.47 | bananabas | totally agree |
| 21:36.35 | *** join/#asterisk alexw (~textual@unaffiliated/alexw) |
| 21:36.45 | bananabas | but the difference is just one of scale |
| 21:37.08 | bananabas | a hosting provider and the basement guy use the same things |
| 21:37.17 | bananabas | a web server (apache) |
| 21:37.22 | bananabas | and an internet connection |
| 21:37.29 | bananabas | so my question is |
| 21:37.50 | bananabas | to be a SIP, do you only need asterisk and an internet connection? |
| 21:38.33 | bananabas | well, a SIP in the skype sense |
| 21:38.51 | bananabas | people connect to you via some software |
| 21:38.57 | WIMPy | It's certainly possible. |
| 21:39.00 | bananabas | and you connect them to landlines |
| 21:39.10 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, You still need a way to reach the PSTN |
| 21:39.19 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Then there are regulatory and legal concerns |
| 21:39.35 | bananabas | leaving those aside for now |
| 21:39.40 | bananabas | since i dont actually plan to do this |
| 21:39.47 | [TK]D-Fender | <[TK]D-Fender> bananabas, You still need a way to reach the PSTN <- |
| 21:40.12 | bananabas | the "way to reach PSTN", isnt that hardware? |
| 21:40.17 | [TK]D-Fender | Depends |
| 21:40.22 | WIMPy | Not any more. |
| 21:40.35 | [TK]D-Fender | you connect through a BIGGER telco that branches on at some point |
| 21:40.47 | [TK]D-Fender | that might imply TDM, some may allow SIP interconnect, etc |
| 21:40.58 | WIMPy | Just get some ITSP and you're done. |
| 21:41.38 | bananabas | but i want to learn about it |
| 21:42.30 | bananabas | whats wrong with that |
| 21:43.10 | [TK]D-Fender | <bananabas> well, a SIP in the skype sense <- what sense is that? |
| 21:43.31 | WIMPy | Nonsense :-) |
| 21:43.35 | bananabas | SIP-trunking you seem to call it |
| 21:43.57 | bananabas | i don't know the exact terminology |
| 21:44.00 | WIMPy | That's somethng that only exists in the brains of marketeers. |
| 21:44.15 | WIMPy | Ooops |
| 21:44.31 | bananabas | i did explain what skype sense meant |
| 21:44.34 | WIMPy | Did I just imply that marketeers have brains? I didn't mean to do so. |
| 21:44.47 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Skype is first P2P and not involving the PSTN at all. Then they added TERMINATION and then ORIGINATION services to the PSTN |
| 21:45.19 | bananabas | ok |
| 21:45.28 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, For the P2P part... all you'd need is internet access & * |
| 21:45.33 | bananabas | ok course |
| 21:45.47 | bananabas | the ORIGINATION part i suppose is being able to receive calls |
| 21:45.49 | WIMPy | -* |
| 21:45.50 | bananabas | on your computer |
| 21:45.56 | bananabas | which i also dont care about |
| 21:46.11 | bananabas | so its the TERMINATION to PSTN which im interested in |
| 21:46.29 | [TK]D-Fender | So you'd hookup with some other level of provider to use as a backbone |
| 21:46.43 | WIMPy | ~itsp |
| 21:46.43 | infobot | [~itsp] An ITSP is an Internet Telephony Service Provider (or VoIP telephone company). They allow you to either SEND calls to the PSTN (this is called termination), RECEIVE calls from the PSTN (called origination), or both. Some offer fixed rates, others $/min. Enter ~itsplist-us (USA) or ~itsplist-ca (Canada) for a listing of popular ITSPs. |
| 21:47.48 | bananabas | ok and the ITSP dont use just asterisk? |
| 21:47.59 | [TK]D-Fender | They do not |
| 21:48.03 | bananabas | they need some other software? |
| 21:48.10 | WIMPy | Most probably not, but in theory they could. |
| 21:48.12 | [TK]D-Fender | And/or hardware |
| 21:48.30 | bananabas | lets keep it at the software level |
| 21:48.55 | bananabas | so even for TERMINATION-only services |
| 21:49.24 | bananabas | you know of no ITSP which uses asterisk? |
| 21:49.54 | WIMPy | Only one that no longer does. |
| 21:50.21 | bananabas | that settles it i guess |
| 21:50.32 | bananabas | so from my pov theyre all equally bad |
| 21:50.55 | WIMPy | Does using Asterisk make them better? |
| 21:51.15 | bananabas | asterisk or some other FOSS, yes |
| 21:51.43 | WIMPy | Yes, there are others. Most notably Freeswitch and Yate. |
| 21:52.27 | [TK]D-Fender | <bananabas> so from my pov theyre all equally bad <- in what way? |
| 21:52.45 | bananabas | WIMPy, which also probably none of them use |
| 21:53.20 | WIMPy | Don't know about Yste, but FreeSwitch is being used. |
| 21:54.18 | bananabas | [TK]D-Fender, bad in the sense of not using open source software that can be externally audited for example |
| 21:54.40 | WIMPy | Which hardly ever happens. |
| 21:54.57 | bananabas | WIMPy, the audit? |
| 21:55.13 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, real world lesson : the universe does not work like this. Telcom is OLD. FAR older than OSS getting into the field and long before it got GOOD enough to use in any sense of SCALE |
| 21:55.14 | WIMPy | And the quality of FOSS is no where near what it used to be, either :-( |
| 21:55.19 | WIMPy | yez |
| 21:55.24 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Because this is the entire industry we're talking about |
| 21:55.41 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, You don't run a telephon company off a low-yield solution |
| 21:55.57 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, There is proprietary software in use EVERYWHERE. |
| 21:56.12 | bananabas | but asterisk is not a low-yield solution |
| 21:56.22 | bananabas | what do you mean by everywhere? |
| 21:56.26 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, If you want to be another one of those blind idealists.. don't worry, we've seen this all before. Your dieals do not match how the world works. |
| 21:56.36 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas> but asterisk is not a low-yield solution <- it IS |
| 21:56.39 | WIMPy | That obviousely depends on your perspective. |
| 21:57.05 | bananabas | im sorry, this for me feels like |
| 21:57.11 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, * has REAL limits on how many calls it can handle. Same with end-to-end tracking, billing, legal requirements for wiretapping, etc |
| 21:57.25 | bananabas | being in the #archlinux channel and seeing people recommend windows |
| 21:57.29 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, YOU don't care about these.. but that is what is really REQUIRED to be a telco |
| 21:58.07 | bananabas | i don't, you're right |
| 21:58.08 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Yes well just because it's FREE doesn't mean it handle huge loads, or work best for the requirements of a given industy |
| 21:58.08 | WIMPy | Tru, but unfortunately they don't care any more, either. |
| 21:58.55 | bananabas | so my ignorance is due to the fact that |
| 21:59.08 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, * can't handle that many calls. Or do the end-to-end stuff required. Or meet the sucurity requirements. Take your pick as to which factor makes it fail being selected |
| 21:59.11 | bananabas | i can get by doing everything with FOSS daily |
| 21:59.26 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes... but you are not an entire telephone company |
| 21:59.33 | bananabas | haha |
| 21:59.35 | bananabas | indeed |
| 21:59.45 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, So comparing YOUR needs.. to that of a full telco.... Let's not go there... |
| 22:00.02 | bananabas | i was just explaining my ignorance |
| 22:00.14 | bananabas | so why dont they spend some effort/money |
| 22:00.22 | bananabas | into taking an existing FOSS solution |
| 22:00.25 | bananabas | like * |
| 22:00.34 | [TK]D-Fender | I only need MS Notepad.. Why does anyone need Photoshop? |
| 22:00.38 | bananabas | and adapting it to their needs |
| 22:00.56 | [TK]D-Fender | Who is "they"? |
| 22:00.57 | bananabas | that was not my point |
| 22:01.03 | WIMPy | Because they don't care. They want something that works NOW. |
| 22:01.08 | bananabas | the telephone companies |
| 22:01.13 | [TK]D-Fender | And stuff exists NOW. |
| 22:01.25 | WIMPy | Ot at least soemone who sells that to them. |
| 22:01.27 | bananabas | and you guys are completely ok with this |
| 22:01.32 | WIMPy | Or... |
| 22:01.36 | bananabas | youre basically saying |
| 22:01.49 | bananabas | no one is using our software |
| 22:01.54 | [TK]D-Fender | It's proprietary. And more resilient right now. And SUPPORTED. Providedd by companies that can be held LIABLE. |
| 22:01.54 | WIMPy | I don't care, either. The technology is shit anyway. |
| 22:01.57 | bananabas | but its ok cos they have needs |
| 22:02.08 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas> no one is using our software <- Whose? |
| 22:02.30 | bananabas | we are in the * channel, are we not |
| 22:02.31 | *** join/#asterisk superscrat (~asanders@173-21-89-217.client.mchsi.com) |
| 22:02.45 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, You a SERIOUS screwing your definition of SCALE |
| 22:02.52 | WIMPy | Should I also go and talk Windows users in to going Linux? Why should I? If it works for them, fine. Everyone should use what suits THEM. |
| 22:02.55 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, TONS of companies use * |
| 22:03.04 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, TELCOS DO NOT. |
| 22:03.17 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, For the same reason FedEX doesn't use TRICYCLES |
| 22:03.21 | bananabas | ok i misunderstood |
| 22:03.23 | bananabas | haahhahaaha |
| 22:03.36 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Yes, aTricycle compaies sell THOUSANDS every year. JUST NOT TO FED-EX |
| 22:03.44 | bananabas | [TK]D-Fender, no need to get pissed off though |
| 22:03.48 | WIMPy | FSCK. Now the cheese on my snacks burned :-( |
| 22:04.16 | [TK]D-Fender | You seemed to conflate that because it isn't used by actual full-sized telco's .. that is isn't used at all. Or good at all. |
| 22:04.21 | [TK]D-Fender | Good for WHO is the question |
| 22:04.32 | [TK]D-Fender | But you are stuck on the comparison to TELCO grade stuff |
| 22:04.42 | bananabas | i thought it was targeted at telcos |
| 22:04.46 | [TK]D-Fender | That is a DUMB comparison. We aren't getting into spacecraft either. |
| 22:04.53 | WIMPy | Certainly not. |
| 22:05.02 | bananabas | and u said they dont use it |
| 22:05.10 | [TK]D-Fender | <bananabas> i thought it was targeted at telcos <- It isn't. I'm curious to see what you used as the basis of that belief. |
| 22:05.12 | bananabas | does that explain the confusion? |
| 22:05.21 | *** part/#asterisk marceloamorim (~marcelo@189-90-192-72.isimples.com.br) |
| 22:05.28 | [TK]D-Fender | You seem to assumed they do |
| 22:05.48 | [TK]D-Fender | Just because an OSS piece of software that relates to a field exists doesn't mean industry has to be using it |
| 22:05.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Or that it's better than any other solution |
| 22:06.03 | [TK]D-Fender | Or suited to the purpose you think it is |
| 22:06.26 | bananabas | so what's it good for then |
| 22:06.37 | WIMPy | Uhoh |
| 22:06.40 | [TK]D-Fender | SMB PBX's. custom stuff. |
| 22:06.49 | WIMPy | Depends on your standards. |
| 22:06.52 | [TK]D-Fender | I use mine to make COFFEE and as a JUKEBOX |
| 22:06.53 | bananabas | small scale stuff |
| 22:07.12 | [TK]D-Fender | Smaller that "regional telco" stuff |
| 22:07.15 | [TK]D-Fender | than* |
| 22:07.17 | bananabas | there could be a small scale SIP provider, no? |
| 22:07.22 | [TK]D-Fender | There COULD be... |
| 22:07.37 | [TK]D-Fender | But those would be shitty little resellers |
| 22:07.43 | [TK]D-Fender | For the few out there. |
| 22:07.45 | WIMPy | Doesn't have to be small. People here use it for call centers with hundreds of simultaneous calls. |
| 22:08.09 | [TK]D-Fender | And they DO exist. But that's "fly-by-night" style. The kind that dissapear along with the hopes of their stranded former clients |
| 22:08.25 | bananabas | haha |
| 22:08.33 | [TK]D-Fender | WIMPy, Less than "thousands" pretty much = small |
| 22:08.53 | WIMPy | For a call center? |
| 22:09.01 | [TK]D-Fender | WIMPy, That's call-center |
| 22:09.06 | bananabas | but let me put it this way |
| 22:09.13 | bananabas | do you guys care about FOSS at all? |
| 22:09.17 | [TK]D-Fender | We're still beating the dead-horse of a "telco" as a topic. |
| 22:09.20 | WIMPy | That's what I said. |
| 22:09.20 | [TK]D-Fender | We do |
| 22:09.32 | bananabas | ok |
| 22:09.43 | [TK]D-Fender | we also understand that you don't use a screwdriver for a job that calls for a hammer |
| 22:09.48 | [TK]D-Fender | Your business will FAIL |
| 22:09.54 | WIMPy | Lets' say it has becoem hard. |
| 22:09.55 | bananabas | and you'd want more people to be using it, including large companies? |
| 22:10.03 | [TK]D-Fender | they already do |
| 22:10.09 | [TK]D-Fender | for WHAT is the question |
| 22:10.15 | bananabas | * |
| 22:10.19 | *** join/#asterisk kplong (~kplong@c-73-53-31-109.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:10.26 | [TK]D-Fender | as PBX? sure. As a back-end application server to another PBX? Sure |
| 22:10.33 | [TK]D-Fender | As a coffee-maker? I do. |
| 22:10.38 | [TK]D-Fender | Maybe 1 other guy |
| 22:11.10 | [TK]D-Fender | as a an inbound/outbound call-center server? Sure |
| 22:11.16 | [TK]D-Fender | How BIG is also a question. |
| 22:11.18 | WIMPy | doesn't like coffe otherwise I might be tempted :-) |
| 22:11.41 | [TK]D-Fender | WIMPy, I always knew there was something wrong with you, but could never quite put my finger on it... |
| 22:11.46 | bananabas | or are large telcos not even a targer for you in the distant future |
| 22:11.58 | [TK]D-Fender | They aren't |
| 22:12.12 | [TK]D-Fender | Also understand who MAKES asterisk |
| 22:12.14 | WIMPy | Oh, you think it's the coffee even after reading what I write here for years? |
| 22:12.26 | [TK]D-Fender | Just knowing that should have answered this question |
| 22:12.32 | bananabas | who makes it |
| 22:12.38 | [TK]D-Fender | Digium <- |
| 22:13.05 | WIMPy | Yes. Asterisk isn't strictly FOSS. |
| 22:13.24 | [TK]D-Fender | And the company that backs it has it's own angle of course |
| 22:13.31 | [TK]D-Fender | its* |
| 22:13.37 | WIMPy | What's the term? Monachich OSS? |
| 22:13.57 | bananabas | so it's not volunteers |
| 22:14.03 | bananabas | like in the linux world |
| 22:14.08 | WIMPy | Both. |
| 22:14.09 | [TK]D-Fender | There are volunteers, |
| 22:14.10 | bananabas | its more akin to Ubuntu |
| 22:14.20 | bananabas | which has Canonical in the back |
| 22:14.35 | [TK]D-Fender | but it was STARTED by Digium, spear-headed by them, and they have large control over what gets in, as open as they are |
| 22:14.47 | kplong | with TLS transport, does this involved Asterisk connecting with TCP/TLS, TO the endpoint? (rather than endpoint to Asterisk) ? I'm seeing connections *from* asterisk to my endpoint, and those are failing , and I am confused. |
| 22:14.53 | *** join/#asterisk yoyolala (~yoyolala@unaffiliated/yoyolala) |
| 22:16.22 | bananabas | well i think (and hope) large telcos are dying |
| 22:16.38 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, For * to grow to telco-grade sizes it would need a SERIOUS overhaul. The kind that would seriously disrupt existing users, take a long time, huge effort, and little payback. |
| 22:16.52 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas> well i think (and hope) large telcos are dying <- care to qualify that "think"? |
| 22:17.20 | bananabas | they seem to be turning into ISPs |
| 22:17.34 | [TK]D-Fender | ISP's go through them as well. |
| 22:17.39 | bananabas | telephony is an old technology |
| 22:17.40 | [TK]D-Fender | Doesn't matter whose traffic it is |
| 22:17.41 | *** join/#asterisk generalhan (~tester@about/windows/staff/generalhan) |
| 22:17.45 | [TK]D-Fender | Someone's getting a cut |
| 22:17.51 | [TK]D-Fender | and is the BIG BOY in the back-room |
| 22:18.02 | bananabas | not for long |
| 22:18.09 | [TK]D-Fender | And because it's old, it's massively entrenched. |
| 22:18.15 | [TK]D-Fender | the legal side is a KILLER |
| 22:18.16 | bananabas | there are projects like internet-from-space |
| 22:18.28 | [TK]D-Fender | and you need to think outside your corner of the world |
| 22:19.42 | bananabas | but do you agree' |
| 22:19.43 | [TK]D-Fender | In the USA you see cities trying to provide whole-city broadband internet... and ISP's SUING to stop them and WINNING. |
| 22:19.53 | [TK]D-Fender | Other countries OUTLAW VoIP altogether |
| 22:19.56 | WIMPy | The world doesn't have corners. Neither is it flat. :-) |
| 22:20.21 | bananabas | ok but it's clear the future of communications is internet |
| 22:20.26 | bananabas | not telephony |
| 22:20.34 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, We all love the warm & fuzziness of the "FOSS Zealot". But we have become REALISTS. |
| 22:20.51 | bananabas | thats what i dont get. |
| 22:20.56 | bananabas | you call me an idealist |
| 22:21.00 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas> ok but it's clear the future of communications is internet <- just don't try guessing how DISTANT that may be. |
| 22:21.07 | WIMPy | <[TK]D-Fender>Â Other countries OUTLAW VoIP altogether <- That's the ones the US will take to war next |
| 22:21.39 | bananabas | its normal that big telcos are holding on with all theyve got |
| 22:21.46 | bananabas | its big money |
| 22:21.57 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes, the "but why isn't * being propped by the industry and making into telcos" is a prime example of idealism. |
| 22:22.10 | [TK]D-Fender | There alrady is a market. |
| 22:22.34 | [TK]D-Fender | And not enough MONEY to be made to try to push into that maker segment. |
| 22:22.34 | bananabas | ok fine, that i didnt know |
| 22:22.34 | [TK]D-Fender | market* |
| 22:22.34 | bananabas | fine fine |
| 22:22.39 | bananabas | dont push it there, then |
| 22:22.41 | [TK]D-Fender | Why? MONEY |
| 22:22.45 | [TK]D-Fender | Always the bottom line |
| 22:23.00 | [TK]D-Fender | There isn't enough of it flowing to make that happen. |
| 22:23.22 | bananabas | so these telcos are like old elephants, right |
| 22:23.27 | [TK]D-Fender | Shuttleworth is a BILLIONAIRE. There's Ubuntu's money |
| 22:23.52 | bananabas | running on legacy software and hardware |
| 22:24.00 | bananabas | and trying to extend it as long as possible |
| 22:24.06 | [TK]D-Fender | Not just legacy |
| 22:24.15 | bananabas | dont mention Shuttleworth |
| 22:24.15 | [TK]D-Fender | but backed by makers of BIG league gear |
| 22:24.22 | WIMPy | No. they are trying to get it of the old equipment really hard. |
| 22:24.26 | [TK]D-Fender | Big league gear = big league $$$ |
| 22:24.39 | WIMPy | (wheere old means no more than 20 years) |
| 22:25.20 | bananabas | its obvious they will fail |
| 22:25.27 | [TK]D-Fender | Nothing is obvious |
| 22:25.39 | bananabas | i bet kids born today |
| 22:25.41 | WIMPy | Everything will fail. That's the goal of the western society. |
| 22:25.44 | bananabas | will not make a phone call in their life |
| 22:26.18 | [TK]D-Fender | kids make calls at 10years old you know |
| 22:26.28 | [TK]D-Fender | Think the telco is going to die that fast? |
| 22:26.30 | bananabas | where do giant telcos fit in a world of p2p connected devices |
| 22:26.46 | bananabas | i think so |
| 22:26.51 | [TK]D-Fender | They still exist |
| 22:26.59 | [TK]D-Fender | and the real world uses real telcos' |
| 22:27.10 | bananabas | yes but things are moving faster |
| 22:27.19 | bananabas | than they did say, 10 yrs ago |
| 22:27.25 | [TK]D-Fender | faster than glacial = still aweful slow |
| 22:27.30 | WIMPy | They have already become completely senseless. They only exist to keep the concept of phone numbers alive. And they wouldn't even bee needed for that. |
| 22:27.31 | [TK]D-Fender | Again, idealism |
| 22:28.00 | bananabas | WIMPy, only thing keeping them is inertia |
| 22:28.07 | bananabas | but even that runs out |
| 22:28.28 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes, ask your great-great-grandkids when that day comes. |
| 22:28.45 | bananabas | cmon man, a little optimism |
| 22:28.49 | [TK]D-Fender | When you realize how many countires have telecom locked down. |
| 22:28.55 | [TK]D-Fender | I'm a realist |
| 22:29.01 | WIMPy | Optimism? |
| 22:29.05 | [TK]D-Fender | I've seen tons of countries you can't use VoIP in. |
| 22:29.16 | bananabas | in europe it is definately not the case |
| 22:29.30 | [TK]D-Fender | The fact of it going unreliably over the internet where "random shit" is the name of the game. |
| 22:29.35 | bananabas | at least eu |
| 22:30.02 | [TK]D-Fender | And many companies don't want their phone service to get screwed over because some kid down the strret is pirating the entire movie industry |
| 22:30.17 | bananabas | hahaha |
| 22:30.24 | WIMPy | Already happening. |
| 22:30.34 | WIMPy | Still, noone cares. |
| 22:30.35 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes, that kid has a SHIT-TON of movies... |
| 22:30.48 | bananabas | you sound like youre attacking voip now |
| 22:31.05 | WIMPy | As long as someone says it's cheaper, its good. Doesn't even matter if it's true. |
| 22:31.24 | bananabas | so isnt voip already cheaper than traditional telephony? |
| 22:31.26 | [TK]D-Fender | No, we're making sure you don't go blindly saying "Hey look, one piece of FOSS telephony,. The entire telcom system is going down, big time!" |
| 22:31.51 | [TK]D-Fender | <bananabas> so isnt voip already cheaper than traditional telephony? <- cheaper to WHOM? IS the telco STILL getting a cut? |
| 22:31.56 | [TK]D-Fender | SCALE |
| 22:32.01 | [TK]D-Fender | You don't seem to understand it |
| 22:32.14 | WIMPy | No. VOIP is a lot more expensive. |
| 22:32.14 | bananabas | cheaper at a personal level |
| 22:32.26 | bananabas | to Bob ;) |
| 22:32.35 | WIMPy | At least for the customer. Not sure of the provider side. |
| 22:32.44 | [TK]D-Fender | guess what... that ITSP is ALSO connecting to some back-end |
| 22:32.54 | [TK]D-Fender | What level of telco do you htink THEY have to deal with? |
| 22:33.08 | bananabas | they just need internet right |
| 22:33.15 | [TK]D-Fender | No. |
| 22:33.18 | bananabas | they dont need to deal with any telco |
| 22:33.27 | [TK]D-Fender | What part of "hooking into the PSTN" did you miss? |
| 22:33.31 | [TK]D-Fender | THAT IS THE TELCO |
| 22:33.38 | [TK]D-Fender | there is ALWAYS a back-ned |
| 22:33.46 | [TK]D-Fender | this is the WORLD'S phone system |
| 22:33.52 | bananabas | ok no but now were talking about smth else |
| 22:33.58 | [TK]D-Fender | that pre-dates the internet |
| 22:34.01 | [TK]D-Fender | No. |
| 22:34.02 | bananabas | were talking about not using phones anymore |
| 22:34.07 | bananabas | at least i am |
| 22:34.13 | [TK]D-Fender | most ISP's just PIGGY-BACK onto existing telco's |
| 22:34.23 | bananabas | you have your smartphone |
| 22:34.29 | bananabas | and that connects to wifi |
| 22:34.40 | bananabas | and you send voice and video through that |
| 22:34.43 | [TK]D-Fender | VIA Wi-FI |
| 22:34.48 | [TK]D-Fender | that's a TECH, not a SERVICE |
| 22:34.58 | [TK]D-Fender | Who rusns the NETWORK you connect to |
| 22:35.07 | [TK]D-Fender | Stop assuming Wi-Fi is "free" |
| 22:35.09 | bananabas | well that can be |
| 22:35.11 | [TK]D-Fender | Hotels beg to differ |
| 22:35.14 | bananabas | your town hall |
| 22:35.24 | bananabas | or elon musk from outer space |
| 22:35.29 | [TK]D-Fender | All fine and dandy |
| 22:35.36 | bananabas | see |
| 22:35.39 | bananabas | no telco in sight |
| 22:35.43 | [TK]D-Fender | Eventually you have to call GRANDMA who can't handle a VCR |
| 22:35.51 | bananabas | hahahaha |
| 22:35.53 | WIMPy | Free wifi will become illegal more and more places. |
| 22:35.58 | [TK]D-Fender | yup |
| 22:36.04 | bananabas | WIMPy, thats absurd |
| 22:36.13 | [TK]D-Fender | I jsut mentioned where city's got SUED and BANNED from providing it |
| 22:36.17 | bananabas | it stimulates business |
| 22:36.21 | WIMPy | That doesn't keep it from happening. |
| 22:36.22 | [TK]D-Fender | Even though they had the mandate AND the cash |
| 22:36.47 | bananabas | so you guys are telling me |
| 22:36.52 | bananabas | that if tomorrow i decide |
| 22:36.57 | WIMPy | AFAIK it's already illegal in half of the US countries, and the law to make it happen in Germany is already on its way. |
| 22:37.01 | bananabas | to provide free wifi for my neighbourhood |
| 22:37.03 | [TK]D-Fender | Government controlled business. Where they don't LIKE competition. In Soviet Russia Phone calls YOU. |
| 22:37.19 | bananabas | they will prosecute me |
| 22:37.24 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, WifI leading where? |
| 22:37.43 | [TK]D-Fender | Within the scope of your local LAN? |
| 22:37.51 | bananabas | to the internet |
| 22:38.04 | [TK]D-Fender | Look at the TOS of your ISP if you think about putting them OUT your connection |
| 22:38.25 | [TK]D-Fender | When you realize they can probably shut you down for abuse of their TOS |
| 22:38.37 | WIMPy | Ok, fo you provide free internet access via wifi. Then I download the latest movies. And you pay the fine. |
| 22:38.46 | [TK]D-Fender | YOU are paying for your ISP access... and there are TERMS |
| 22:38.56 | [TK]D-Fender | And you are 100% liable |
| 22:38.58 | bananabas | yes ok |
| 22:39.06 | bananabas | i create my own isp |
| 22:39.08 | [TK]D-Fender | Just wait till htey start downloading child-port on it... |
| 22:39.12 | bananabas | fuck their terms |
| 22:39.24 | [TK]D-Fender | No.. THEY fuck YOU. You don't seem to understand how this works... |
| 22:39.25 | bananabas | hahah child-porn |
| 22:39.37 | bananabas | whos they |
| 22:39.41 | [TK]D-Fender | Your ISP |
| 22:39.43 | [TK]D-Fender | Telcos |
| 22:39.45 | [TK]D-Fender | Government |
| 22:39.49 | WIMPy | And as I could also send an e-mail to my firends in Afghanistan about something I planned, it has to be illeal right away. |
| 22:39.50 | [TK]D-Fender | ALL OF THEM |
| 22:39.52 | bananabas | its starting to sound a bit conspirationalist |
| 22:40.20 | WIMPy | No. That's how things work. |
| 22:40.22 | [TK]D-Fender | It's not a "conspiracy". It's the TERMS OF SERVICE you signed up with |
| 22:40.24 | WIMPy | NOW |
| 22:40.27 | bananabas | what shit kind of world is this |
| 22:40.35 | bananabas | internet doesnt belong to the ISPs |
| 22:40.42 | [TK]D-Fender | Adam & Eve : the first 2 people to never read Apples Terms & Conditions |
| 22:40.53 | bananabas | hahahaha |
| 22:40.55 | WIMPy | Then show me how you use the internet without an ISP. |
| 22:41.12 | [TK]D-Fender | MAGIC! |
| 22:41.22 | [TK]D-Fender | My packets magically arrive at their destination |
| 22:41.29 | bananabas | you make it p2p |
| 22:41.33 | bananabas | decentralize it |
| 22:41.47 | [TK]D-Fender | Packets flow in. Packets flow out. Never a miscommunication. |
| 22:41.50 | WIMPy | There are thigs liek Freifunk, but there's a lot of trouble involved and they are all far too samll to make any difference so far. |
| 22:42.16 | bananabas | but how do u guys see the solution then |
| 22:42.21 | bananabas | you could either |
| 22:42.22 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, You're now talking about creating you're own internet. Remember that warning against "idealism". You're reinventing ... THE ENTIRE INTERNET NOW. |
| 22:42.37 | bananabas | if all you say is true |
| 22:42.43 | bananabas | it seems to be the only way out |
| 22:42.47 | [TK]D-Fender | Welcome to Planet Earth! |
| 22:43.00 | bananabas | i cant use my ISPs connection because of TOS |
| 22:43.01 | WIMPy | Well, Europe and Russia could unit agains the US. |
| 22:43.04 | [TK]D-Fender | "No one's getting outta here alive" |
| 22:43.13 | WIMPy | unite |
| 22:43.14 | [TK]D-Fender | bananabas, Not with YOUR TOS |
| 22:43.19 | bananabas | ok |
| 22:43.24 | bananabas | can i start my own ISP? |
| 22:43.25 | [TK]D-Fender | If you pay them for something much BIGGER maybe |
| 22:43.40 | WIMPy | Wat do ISPs connect to? |
| 22:43.41 | [TK]D-Fender | Also.... there are LAWS about what you have to provide, etc |
| 22:43.45 | [TK]D-Fender | OTHER ISP's! |
| 22:44.01 | [TK]D-Fender | RECLAIM THE INTERWEBS! |
| 22:44.03 | [TK]D-Fender | BOTH OF THEM! |
| 22:44.04 | bananabas | is it hierarchical then? |
| 22:44.17 | [TK]D-Fender | No, it's spaghetti |
| 22:44.24 | bananabas | like small isp goes to bigger isp goes to even bigger one |
| 22:44.35 | [TK]D-Fender | for many, yes |
| 22:44.41 | [TK]D-Fender | Depends where in the world you are |
| 22:44.50 | bananabas | ok but even so |
| 22:44.57 | bananabas | say Bob is an excentric millionaire |
| 22:45.00 | [TK]D-Fender | For some it's "China OWNS theire piece of the internet". |
| 22:45.05 | [TK]D-Fender | Competition? What's THAT? |
| 22:45.08 | bananabas | or billionaire |
| 22:45.14 | [TK]D-Fender | Billion? |
| 22:45.18 | [TK]D-Fender | chump change. |
| 22:45.24 | [TK]D-Fender | We're talking about the PLANET here :) |
| 22:45.27 | WIMPy | nd sometimes they own the rest as well. |
| 22:45.37 | [TK]D-Fender | that might get you a pipe directly into the peering. |
| 22:45.51 | bananabas | so Bob gets a nice pipe |
| 22:45.54 | bananabas | and says |
| 22:45.54 | [TK]D-Fender | yup |
| 22:45.58 | [TK]D-Fender | that's a LOT of porn. |
| 22:46.01 | [TK]D-Fender | Just sayin' |
| 22:46.04 | bananabas | this city will have free internet |
| 22:46.09 | bananabas | starting tomorrow |
| 22:46.17 | [TK]D-Fender | Nope, not when telcos have a hold in government <- |
| 22:46.27 | [TK]D-Fender | LAW stops them in lots of places |
| 22:46.31 | bananabas | so thats illegal |
| 22:46.35 | [TK]D-Fender | You'll have to buy THEM out |
| 22:46.41 | [TK]D-Fender | in many places, yes |
| 22:46.48 | bananabas | charity is illegal |
| 22:46.52 | bananabas | is what ure saying here |
| 22:47.03 | [TK]D-Fender | it's considered ANTI-TRUST |
| 22:47.09 | [TK]D-Fender | and "monoplistic" |
| 22:47.15 | bananabas | its the equivalent of getting arrested if i give money to the poor |
| 22:47.17 | [TK]D-Fender | You would be stifling OTHER comapnies <- |
| 22:47.19 | WIMPy | Everything that doesn't generate taxes is illegal. |
| 22:47.29 | bananabas | charity is tax free |
| 22:47.31 | [TK]D-Fender | WIMPy, VERY apt way to put it |
| 22:47.51 | bananabas | Bob creates an NGO that distributes free internet |
| 22:47.55 | bananabas | sounds very legal to me |
| 22:47.55 | [TK]D-Fender | yes, well your "free" is illegally under-cutting big-business |
| 22:48.02 | [TK]D-Fender | and they have laws for that |
| 22:48.18 | bananabas | but if I open a restaurant |
| 22:48.25 | bananabas | and start distributing food for free |
| 22:48.34 | bananabas | im undercutting McDonalds right |
| 22:48.43 | bananabas | and other big food stores |
| 22:48.47 | bananabas | is that also illegal |
| 22:48.57 | [TK]D-Fender | Do you know there were articles out TODAY about people being BANNED from giving out free food? |
| 22:49.06 | [TK]D-Fender | made it through Reddit, and a few others |
| 22:49.10 | WIMPy | Yes. They would claim lost profit. |
| 22:49.16 | [TK]D-Fender | But food isn't regulated like telecom is |
| 22:49.27 | *** join/#asterisk bmurt (~brendan@64-121-3-32.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.cable.rcn.com) |
| 22:49.27 | bananabas | ok so its industry-dependent |
| 22:49.29 | [TK]D-Fender | so it's not the same from a functional standpoint |
| 22:49.37 | WIMPy | Or no. It's not exactely illegal, but you have to pay the others. |
| 22:49.44 | [TK]D-Fender | Telcom is still ofen considered a UTILITY and that has regulations around them |
| 22:49.49 | bananabas | however provided im rich enough |
| 22:49.51 | [TK]D-Fender | and it varies WILDLY throughout the world |
| 22:50.13 | bananabas | i could seriously disrupt big food businesses |
| 22:50.19 | [TK]D-Fender | <bananabas> however provided im rich enough <- we've already passed BILLIONS here. this is "LSD trip" level idealism |
| 22:50.41 | bananabas | no its just bill gates going crazy |
| 22:50.48 | [TK]D-Fender | Where is all the money going to miraculously PROVIDE food? |
| 22:50.52 | [TK]D-Fender | Who is PRODUCING it? |
| 22:50.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Transporting it? |
| 22:50.58 | [TK]D-Fender | Preparing? |
| 22:51.02 | [TK]D-Fender | actual delivery? |
| 22:51.08 | [TK]D-Fender | the world is a SYSTEM |
| 22:51.11 | bananabas | ok fine |
| 22:51.17 | bananabas | forget food |
| 22:51.24 | *** join/#asterisk Forge64 (~Forge@107-0-240-254-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 22:51.29 | bananabas | i put up a chiosk in the town square |
| 22:51.36 | bananabas | and start distributing cash |
| 22:51.45 | [TK]D-Fender | Idealism makes for a lot of straw houses |
| 22:51.50 | bananabas | no system needed there |
| 22:52.03 | [TK]D-Fender | So you miraculously have tons of cash and start giving it away. |
| 22:52.11 | bananabas | im bill gates ok |
| 22:52.15 | [TK]D-Fender | That starts making the cash they have NOW worth less since eveyon has more |
| 22:52.16 | bananabas | i dont miraculously have it |
| 22:52.22 | [TK]D-Fender | Heard of deflation before? |
| 22:52.30 | [TK]D-Fender | Trying to crash the entire economy much? |
| 22:52.46 | bananabas | no cos i only distribute it to the poor |
| 22:52.47 | [TK]D-Fender | comes from somewhere, ends somewhere |
| 22:52.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Now you're ROBIN HOOD? |
| 22:52.59 | bananabas | yes |
| 22:53.08 | [TK]D-Fender | You've gone from "idealism", to "legendary hero" |
| 22:53.12 | bananabas | so no deflation |
| 22:53.18 | bananabas | well, im inspired tonight |
| 22:53.26 | bananabas | wifi was also robin hood |
| 22:53.28 | [TK]D-Fender | I'm sure we're hitting saint-hood next by our current rate |
| 22:53.37 | bananabas | haha |
| 22:53.47 | [TK]D-Fender | I wish I could afford crack.... |
| 22:53.53 | [TK]D-Fender | I mean sure... I'd never take it. |
| 22:54.00 | [TK]D-Fender | Would nice to be able to afford it though |
| 22:54.12 | [TK]D-Fender | besides... I would never do a drug named after a part of my ass |
| 22:54.18 | bananabas | hahah |
| 22:54.24 | bananabas | whats the connection |
| 22:54.39 | WIMPy | You find out if you take it. |
| 22:54.44 | [TK]D-Fender | This conversation has hit LSD levels and I'm SOBER |
| 22:54.56 | bananabas | well |
| 22:55.12 | bananabas | i know for a fact that distributing lsd to people is illegal |
| 22:55.21 | bananabas | so lets stick to cash |
| 22:55.24 | bananabas | or wifi |
| 22:55.51 | bananabas | btw, the towns you were mentioning with free wifi, where do they get it from |
| 22:56.05 | WIMPy | Ok, wifi has been handled. It will become illegal. |
| 22:56.07 | [TK]D-Fender | First don't use the term "free wifi" |
| 22:56.22 | bananabas | its free for the user |
| 22:56.27 | [TK]D-Fender | forget the ANTENNA's and realise the COMPANIES they are causing a business loss to |
| 22:56.31 | WIMPy | And for cash I hope all the receipients pay their taxes for what you give them. |
| 22:56.32 | [TK]D-Fender | And who have LEGAL PULL |
| 22:56.49 | [TK]D-Fender | are PREVENTING a company from being able to compete |
| 22:56.53 | [TK]D-Fender | and telcom is REGULATED |
| 22:57.07 | [TK]D-Fender | LAW is your problem here and you seem intent on trying to ignore it. |
| 22:57.08 | [TK]D-Fender | You can't |
| 22:57.13 | [TK]D-Fender | That IS what fucks this over |
| 22:57.16 | bananabas | but internet falls under telcom? |
| 22:57.18 | [TK]D-Fender | YES |
| 22:57.21 | [TK]D-Fender | ^^^^^^^ |
| 22:57.23 | bananabas | omg |
| 22:57.42 | bananabas | but the laws are from dinosauric times then! |
| 22:57.52 | [TK]D-Fender | Have you SEEN goverment before? |
| 22:57.53 | bananabas | from before dial-up |
| 22:58.13 | WIMPy | And messing with infrastructure is seen as act of terrorism these days. |
| 22:58.19 | [TK]D-Fender | Alabama, USQ still celebrates the CONFEDERACY and the time of slavery |
| 22:58.22 | [TK]D-Fender | USA* |
| 22:58.39 | bananabas | no but seriously |
| 22:58.49 | bananabas | its regulated by the same laws as |
| 22:58.57 | bananabas | the old telecom systems |
| 22:59.09 | bananabas | heck, the copper-wire phones |
| 22:59.17 | bananabas | from the times of giant monopolies |
| 22:59.22 | bananabas | like AT&T |
| 22:59.32 | bananabas | or Telefonica |
| 22:59.44 | WIMPy | The phone network has been replaced by more generic terms like telecommunication services in most legislations. |
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| 22:59.59 | *** mode/#asterisk [+o mjordan] by ChanServ |
| 23:00.04 | bananabas | thats a superficial change |
| 23:00.43 | WIMPy | Laws are made to protect the government from the citicens. |
| 23:00.55 | WIMPy | And that doesn't neccessarily men government in the legal sense. |
| 23:01.00 | WIMPy | mean |
| 23:01.04 | bananabas | so if i cant provide internet without getting it from somewhere |
| 23:01.15 | bananabas | there must be some root |
| 23:01.24 | bananabas | some place all ISPs get it from |
| 23:01.43 | WIMPy | Just persuade all others to join you and you and it will be you. |
| 23:01.47 | bananabas | some mega-ISP |
| 23:01.52 | WIMPy | There are many of these places. |
| 23:01.57 | bananabas | but who is it now |
| 23:02.07 | bananabas | are they private |
| 23:02.14 | WIMPy | Usually caled *IX |
| 23:02.14 | bananabas | or government-controlled |
| 23:02.19 | WIMPy | Many |
| 23:02.21 | WIMPy | Often. |
| 23:02.35 | WIMPy | Nothign happens without government control. |
| 23:03.11 | bananabas | i still dont get where it originates though |
| 23:03.23 | WIMPy | All data needs to be logged or duplicated for law enforcement. |
| 23:03.37 | WIMPy | Everywhere. |
| 23:03.58 | WIMPy | What I type here originates here. What you type originates at your place. |
| 23:04.11 | bananabas | no, that i know |
| 23:04.17 | WIMPy | It's just about what people agree upon to exchange data. |
| 23:04.22 | bananabas | but my internet comes from an ISP |
| 23:04.31 | bananabas | which gets its internet from another ISP |
| 23:04.35 | bananabas | right? |
| 23:04.43 | WIMPy | yes |
| 23:04.46 | bananabas | but it has to stop somewhere |
| 23:04.58 | WIMPy | No |
| 23:04.59 | bananabas | it cant go infinitely up |
| 23:05.07 | WIMPy | It's a network. I.e. mesh. |
| 23:05.29 | WIMPy | There are crossconnections everywhere. |
| 23:05.47 | bananabas | Comcast |
| 23:05.57 | WIMPy | That also means there are many different ways for the data to reach the desired destination. |
| 23:06.10 | [TK]D-Fender | Comcast IS a backbone |
| 23:06.15 | [TK]D-Fender | for their part of the world |
| 23:06.16 | WIMPy | And the path may change back and forth while you transmit it. |
| 23:06.23 | [TK]D-Fender | and they connect to TOHERS |
| 23:06.25 | [TK]D-Fender | others |
| 23:06.58 | [TK]D-Fender | When you become big enough to PEER with them (and don't think there isn't money changing hands.... there IS) |
| 23:07.18 | bananabas | to peer with them? |
| 23:07.40 | WIMPy | Well, actually there are many peerings that don't involve cash. |
| 23:08.00 | *** join/#asterisk kharwell (kharwell@nat/digium/x-byrnbssmcehvioyx) |
| 23:08.55 | bananabas | Because of the enormous overlap between long-distance telephone networks and backbone networks, the largest long-distance voice carriers such as AT&T Inc., MCI, Sprint, and CenturyLink also own some of the largest Internet backbone networks. |
| 23:08.59 | bananabas | Wikipedia |
| 23:09.20 | bananabas | These backbone providers sell their services to Internet service providers. |
| 23:10.02 | bananabas | The largest providers, known as tier 1 providers, have such comprehensive networks that they never purchase transit agreements from other providers |
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| 23:10.32 | bananabas | there are 7 of them |
| 23:11.27 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes, but what makes you think you can grown big enough in a region to BECOME one of them |
| 23:11.43 | [TK]D-Fender | The USA is made up of a series of regional monopiles |
| 23:11.49 | [TK]D-Fender | Cable has fucked the USA |
| 23:11.52 | WIMPy | "In a region" <- fail |
| 23:11.57 | bananabas | yea |
| 23:11.58 | carrar | Comcast doesn't like to do free peering |
| 23:12.05 | carrar | I tried |
| 23:12.11 | bananabas | i dont think i can ever become that big |
| 23:12.18 | carrar | they want THOUSANDS of dollars |
| 23:12.22 | [TK]D-Fender | Ask yourself who could |
| 23:12.31 | [TK]D-Fender | because they'll bleed cash trying to get there |
| 23:12.32 | bananabas | they are all old teleco companies |
| 23:12.51 | WIMPy | They had the cables. |
| 23:12.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Look at the attempted Time-Warner and Comcast merger attempt. |
| 23:13.03 | WIMPy | But there are others who have. |
| 23:13.22 | bananabas | interesting |
| 23:13.25 | [TK]D-Fender | For an understanding on what "telecom monopoly" looks like in the "free" world |
| 23:13.31 | bananabas | 5 of the 7 are american corporations |
| 23:13.32 | [TK]D-Fender | and on that note... |
| 23:13.36 | [TK]D-Fender | heads off... |
| 23:13.52 | bananabas | the other 2 are british and swedish |
| 23:14.45 | [TK]D-Fender | on THAT list |
| 23:14.51 | [TK]D-Fender | covering some of the world |
| 23:15.15 | bananabas | it said there are 7 in the whole world |
| 23:16.14 | [TK]D-Fender | Where? |
| 23:16.24 | bananabas | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_backbone |
| 23:16.33 | bananabas | section Tier 1 providers |
| 23:17.17 | [TK]D-Fender | Yes, well that's what they "consider" to be |
| 23:17.20 | [TK]D-Fender | based on raw size |
| 23:17.24 | bananabas | yes |
| 23:17.29 | bananabas | they are the largest |
| 23:17.32 | [TK]D-Fender | that isn't an ACTUAL thing though |
| 23:17.36 | [TK]D-Fender | Like an honourary title |
| 23:17.39 | bananabas | ok so this is fucked |
| 23:17.48 | [TK]D-Fender | Aside from LAWS... taht may refer to them |
| 23:17.55 | bananabas | who can ever compete with these guys |
| 23:17.55 | [TK]D-Fender | Inster Fuckery Here |
| 23:18.03 | [TK]D-Fender | Insert* |
| 23:18.12 | [TK]D-Fender | actually heads out the door |
| 23:18.21 | bananabas | haha |
| 23:18.26 | [TK]D-Fender | Keep reading.... and get some anti-depressants |
| 23:18.47 | carrar | it's not hard to compete with Comcast |
| 23:18.55 | carrar | and it's really easy to do better |
| 23:19.10 | bananabas | compete money-wise |
| 23:19.14 | bananabas | and legislation-wise |
| 23:19.41 | bananabas | i think the only thing possible is real decentralization |
| 23:19.57 | bananabas | move away from the ISP world |
| 23:20.20 | WIMPy | Join Freifunk. |
| 23:20.35 | bananabas | whats that |
| 23:20.49 | WIMPy | What you want. |
| 23:20.59 | WIMPy | already mentioned it earlier. |
| 23:21.22 | bananabas | says german |
| 23:21.28 | carrar | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freifunk |
| 23:21.47 | WIMPy | Most communities are in Germany, yes. |
| 23:22.25 | bananabas | until they ban it |
| 23:22.42 | WIMPy | What is already on the way. |
| 23:22.54 | bananabas | let me guess |
| 23:23.01 | bananabas | due to "child porn" issue |
| 23:23.10 | bananabas | or is it terrorism this time |
| 23:23.20 | WIMPy | either that or terrorism. |
| 23:23.29 | carrar | ban it for the children |
| 23:23.30 | WIMPy | ATM it's more terrorism. |
| 23:24.05 | bananabas | or, copyright issues |
| 23:24.18 | bananabas | like, sharing movies etc |
| 23:24.30 | WIMPy | It's quite funny how the city argued. They looked in to suporting Freifunk to support tourism. |
| 23:24.49 | bananabas | and then? |
| 23:25.13 | WIMPy | On one hand they asked how they would not be held liable for what users do and on the other hand they criticise that the users can't be held liable. |
| 23:25.55 | bananabas | because some1 HAS to be liable |
| 23:26.01 | WIMPy | At the moment most communities just send all traffic through a tunnel abroad. |
| 23:26.05 | bananabas | cant the antennas be liable |
| 23:26.54 | WIMPy | It's always the last one who can be identified. |
| 23:27.03 | bananabas | so technology is making initiatives like this more feasible |
| 23:27.20 | bananabas | i.e. better transmitters, etc |
| 23:27.52 | WIMPy | Not really. The whole thing heavily relies on the internet as a transport medium. |
| 23:28.08 | WIMPy | And radio sinals are heavily regulated. |
| 23:28.38 | bananabas | radio is regulated, thats true |
| 23:28.51 | danielbw | what did i stumble in to? |
| 23:28.57 | danielbw | this is a whle lot of convo |
| 23:29.20 | WIMPy | Just making the world an ideal place :-) |
| 23:29.34 | danielbw | heh |
| 23:29.40 | danielbw | you summed it up nicely |
| 23:29.59 | WIMPy | Which for me implies getting rid of SIp. Just to get back on topic. |
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| 23:30.25 | danielbw | oops |
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| 23:31.21 | bananabas | WIMPy, and replace it with? |
| 23:31.52 | WIMPy | There are better VOIP protocolls. Like e.g. Asterisks IAX. |
| 23:32.20 | bananabas | do u know of other projects similar to freifunk? |
| 23:32.25 | WIMPy | Or even better not use IP, although there are senible uses sometimes. |
| 23:32.45 | bananabas | not use IP? |
| 23:32.52 | WIMPy | There was a link to other projects on that wiki page. |
| 23:33.21 | WIMPy | The PSTN surely worked a lot better than VOIP. |
| 23:33.37 | WIMPy | And VOIP has been in general use for 15 years or so. |
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| 23:34.01 | WIMPy | Still seems like infancy issues we get, though. |
| 23:34.11 | bananabas | i though youre suggesting to use internet |
| 23:34.24 | bananabas | like, p2p |
| 23:34.34 | bananabas | voice and video over p2p that is |
| 23:34.42 | WIMPy | You could do so. Sure. |
| 23:34.54 | bananabas | that works fine |
| 23:35.04 | WIMPy | But SIP is the worst openly documented way to do it. |
| 23:35.36 | bananabas | whats better |
| 23:35.49 | bananabas | iax |
| 23:35.56 | danielbw | wimpy are you talking sip in general like sip stations or sip 2 sip connections over the internet? |
| 23:35.59 | WIMPy | I already gave an example. |
| 23:36.18 | WIMPy | SIP in itself. |
| 23:36.49 | WIMPy | And at least some of the proprietary solutions are obviousely better as well. |
| 23:36.55 | danielbw | well i dont know enough about it to form an opinion |
| 23:37.54 | WIMPy | Well, SIP is just a base that in itself is pretty unusable. Then there are tons of addons. Off course different people ionvented different solutions to the same issues. |
| 23:37.57 | MaliutaLap | WIMPy: the PSTN is harline to hardline - there are more variables when putting something over the intertubes |
| 23:38.04 | WIMPy | And some haven't been tackeld at all so far. |
| 23:38.35 | bananabas | WIMPy, i found no further links on the wiki page btw |
| 23:38.40 | WIMPy | The PSTN has been a data network for at least 20 years now. |
| 23:39.45 | WIMPy | Right at the tope there is a link to "Wireless community network". |
| 23:40.26 | WIMPy | Or surf the See alsos. |
| 23:41.03 | bananabas | this seems quite cool |
| 23:41.03 | bananabas | http://wndw.net/pdf/wndw3-en/wndw3-ebook.pdf |
| 23:41.33 | WIMPy | danielbw: Or as I said earlier, SIP is like GAP, You know that you SHOULD be able to place, answer and hangup calls, Everythign else is hit or miss. |
| 23:45.40 | bananabas | im off guys |
| 23:45.56 | bananabas | its been really nice talking to you |
| 23:46.05 | bananabas | and thanks every1 for their time |
| 23:46.16 | WIMPy | Maybe you start the first italien Freifunk :-) |
| 23:46.39 | bananabas | im really excited about this project now! |
| 23:47.19 | bananabas | maybe i start it in a country with less internet regulation |
| 23:47.21 | WIMPy | But please think about the technology before starting it. |
| 23:47.35 | bananabas | WIMPy, in what sense |
| 23:48.28 | WIMPy | It's a rather complicated thing and it's not a good idea to first start it and think about how to make it work later. |
| 23:48.40 | WIMPy | Which happens to be what they did here :-( |
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| 23:48.48 | bananabas | oh dont worry |
| 23:48.56 | bananabas | im usually quite the opposite |
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| 23:49.04 | bananabas | too much planning ;) |
| 23:49.31 | WIMPy | They started it lie a commercial project. Find as many users as possible and don't worry about making it work :-( |
| 23:49.57 | bananabas | so scale fucked them? |
| 23:49.57 | WIMPy | There is a lot that can be planned! |
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| 23:50.15 | file | hmmm? |
| 23:50.40 | bananabas | are you based in NL? |
| 23:50.40 | WIMPy | No. But they are not much mire that free internet access now. |
| 23:51.02 | WIMPy | The own network has fallen off their minds. |
| 23:51.14 | WIMPy | No, DE. |
| 23:51.25 | danielbw | well |
| 23:51.39 | mjordan | file: yes? |
| 23:51.43 | WIMPy | But the opposite end from your view. |
| 23:51.46 | bananabas | oh so u have first hand experience with this? |
| 23:51.46 | file | mjordan, no. |
| 23:51.52 | mjordan | file: kk |
| 23:52.01 | danielbw | WIMPy: I installed freepbx with asterisk 11 and the one-way audio problem is gone. |
| 23:52.04 | WIMPy | Yes. But I don't get too involved. |
| 23:52.12 | danielbw | I really wanted to roll my own on this one ... |
| 23:52.26 | bananabas | i see |
| 23:52.43 | WIMPy | danielbw: And did you find the difference? |
| 23:52.46 | bananabas | ok i really gotta go now |
| 23:52.53 | bananabas | but, as arnold said |
| 23:52.56 | bananabas | ill be back |
| 23:53.04 | WIMPy | bananabas: I saiud, I'd get involved if they want to do it right :-) |
| 23:53.47 | danielbw | WIMPy: there's too much to look for |
| 23:54.55 | danielbw | WIMPy: Strangest thing is, the echo test still fails... HAHA |
| 23:55.38 | WIMPy | Huh? |
| 23:56.24 | WIMPy | That doesn't make it less strange than before. |
| 23:56.50 | danielbw | It's strange, because the regular PSTN calls sound great, but PSTN to echo has the choppy sound |
| 23:57.11 | danielbw | so, i would have expected the echo test to sound great |
| 23:57.24 | danielbw | because it seems "fixed" |
| 23:57.48 | WIMPy | Have you tried stuff like Voicemail? I guess that would go bad as well? |
| 23:57.57 | danielbw | No, voicemail sounds good now too |
| 23:58.17 | WIMPy | Doesn't make it less strange. |
| 23:58.27 | danielbw | whatever, seems strange to me |
| 23:59.42 | danielbw | i think we both think it's strange. now the works strange seems strange to me |
| 23:59.51 | danielbw | s/works/word |
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