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| 00:47.00 | *** join/#asterisk wonderworld (~wonderwor@unaffiliated/wonderworld) |
| 00:47.15 | wonderworld | i hate FAX |
| 00:48.00 | Samot | Why's that? |
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| 00:53.48 | wonderworld | the provider doesn't offer t.38 and t.30 passthru is even less reliable than i initially thought. |
| 00:54.17 | wonderworld | it's a coinflip if a fax goes thru an more than 3 pages seem to be impossible |
| 00:54.30 | Samot | OK and what are you using? |
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| 00:54.41 | Samot | ATA wise |
| 00:55.36 | wonderworld | Cisco SPA122. i read that Welltech adapters would work better but i did not have the chance to test |
| 00:56.56 | Samot | And you have all the FAX passthru stuff setup? |
| 00:59.36 | wonderworld | i am not sure if i missed something. codec is g.711, set baud rate of fax to 9600, EC off. in cisco: jitter buffer off, echo canceling disabled, passthru mode reinvite |
| 01:00.03 | Samot | Jitter Level? |
| 01:01.10 | wonderworld | i am not at the place right now, but i bet i didn't touch the default. what would be your advise? |
| 01:05.37 | wonderworld | i guess i should set it as high as possible? |
| 01:06.23 | Samot | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BN7lSn8G/ |
| 01:07.48 | Samot | If ReINVITE isn't working try NSE |
| 01:09.43 | wonderworld | ok, i will retry tomorrow. thank you very much |
| 01:10.45 | wonderworld | does this setup work reliable for you? |
| 01:12.37 | wonderworld | do you do anything special asterisk-side? at the moment all i do is dial the ATA when a fax comes in |
| 01:12.40 | Samot | Last time I used it, sure. |
| 01:12.50 | Samot | But I haven't done none T.38 faxing in a long time. |
| 01:12.58 | Samot | If it is that vital, get a provider that supports it. |
| 01:13.54 | wonderworld | yes, i wanted to but they are bound to the current provider for 2 more years |
| 01:15.02 | Samot | For just this? |
| 01:16.14 | wonderworld | you mean just for fax? |
| 01:16.35 | Samot | Correct, or do you have more than just this DID/fax service with them? |
| 01:16.46 | Samot | Because you can keep your contract for the rest and move the FAX. |
| 01:18.20 | wonderworld | the old provider won't pass the number to another provider until the contract ends |
| 01:20.09 | Samot | That must be some funky EU thing. |
| 01:20.13 | wonderworld | it is |
| 01:20.15 | Samot | That can't happen in the US. |
| 01:20.18 | wonderworld | it sucks |
| 01:20.32 | Samot | OK so early term the fax service. |
| 01:20.44 | Samot | Again, this comes down to how vital is the fax? |
| 01:21.03 | wonderworld | they are allowed by law to block it and nearly all of the telcos do so |
| 01:21.09 | Samot | Is the early term worth it to get to a provider that can get your faxes to you? Or is it worth it paying for 2 years of not getting faxes. |
| 01:21.38 | wonderworld | they cant move, because they need to keep their number |
| 01:21.52 | Samot | I totally understand that. |
| 01:22.05 | wonderworld | i could organize another provider just for fax, but they would need to reprint all their business cards, papers, etc. |
| 01:22.17 | Samot | So they won't let you early terminate the fax service? |
| 01:22.25 | Samot | Pay the fee for that service and let you move? |
| 01:22.59 | wonderworld | i haven't asked them yet. the CISCO arrived today. still hopeful to make it work somehow. |
| 01:23.41 | wonderworld | an option i see is to get a commercial fax service and make asterisk passthru incoming faxes to their service |
| 01:24.21 | wonderworld | maybe they handle things better, i don't know |
| 01:24.30 | Samot | I'm not sure how. |
| 01:24.57 | Samot | Non-T.38 Provider -> Asterisk -> T.38 Provider ---> ???? |
| 01:25.56 | wonderworld | how long does it take in the U.S. to move a number out? |
| 01:27.22 | Samot | Anywhere from 24hrs to 2 weeks depending. |
| 01:27.30 | Samot | Sometimes it could be longer if records aren't up to date |
| 01:27.47 | Samot | But local DIDs cannot be blocked from porting. |
| 01:28.18 | Samot | Toll Free DIDs can because the carrier is saddled with the costs of the usage |
| 01:30.13 | wonderworld | i see. i think fax will die within the next 2-3 years, because all offices that are still on ISDN now must use SIP. |
| 01:30.35 | wonderworld | this will make the situation even more terrible |
| 01:30.46 | wonderworld | or force the large providers to finaly support t.38 |
| 01:30.53 | wonderworld | it's a joke that they don't |
| 01:32.08 | wonderworld | every small SIP provider in the eu has been offering t.38 since about 10 yrs or so |
| 01:33.08 | wonderworld | now the large carriers kick their customers forcefully from ISDN into SIP but don't want to provide basic services for it |
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| 01:34.49 | Samot | wonderworld: FAX is not going to die in 2-3 years. |
| 01:35.02 | Samot | You know how long people have been saying that? |
| 01:35.17 | Samot | As long as they've said IPv4 will be unusable in the same time frame. |
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| 01:37.12 | wonderworld | fax survives here, because courts and administration see faxed documents as official documents for deadlines, etc. |
| 01:37.38 | Samot | Yes. |
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| 01:37.44 | wonderworld | so businesses actually need a fax, at least when they need to do official things quickly |
| 01:37.47 | Samot | Because that is what FAX is short for. |
| 01:37.56 | Samot | Facsimile. |
| 01:38.03 | Samot | A direct duplicate of the original |
| 01:38.24 | wonderworld | an absolutely fail-safe copy ;) |
| 01:38.44 | Samot | Even when I do 100% digital through my fax system.. |
| 01:38.59 | Samot | It comes out looking like it was processed through a fax machine. |
| 01:39.31 | wonderworld | "comfort noise" for images |
| 01:39.57 | Samot | I had a law office do WFH because of COVID. |
| 01:40.11 | wonderworld | what is WFH? |
| 01:40.12 | Samot | They had a POTS line. They forwarded it to their digital fax line they never use. |
| 01:40.22 | Samot | 2K faxes inbound a month |
| 01:40.27 | Samot | Work From Home |
| 01:41.32 | wonderworld | i read the wikipedia article on FAX and was astounded to see that fax is actually older than the telephone |
| 01:42.12 | wonderworld | so yes. it will probably survive until WW3. |
| 01:43.16 | Samot | Remember, telegrams were done with tones |
| 01:45.28 | wonderworld | i guess i should go to sleep now, thanks again for your help. maybe cisco will keep fax alive tomorrow. |
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| 01:51.30 | igcewieling | I once hacked up some scripts which transferred 8-bit data encoded as DTMF. It worked, but the available bandwidth was like 16 bits (not bytes) per second. Enough to send "shutdown -r now", I suppose. |
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| 02:49.55 | igcewieling | file it would be nice if Asterisk SHAKEN/STIR support worked with https://transnexus.com/shaken/ |
| 02:51.23 | Samot | FFS. |
| 02:51.26 | Samot | "Some SIP networks use UDP, which is prone to packet loss and fragmentation." |
| 02:51.28 | Samot | Seriously? |
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| 03:30.57 | cybrNaut | i use fax all the time. I hope to contribute to keeping it alive. Why fax is more reliable than email => https://oasis.code-cat.com/posts/1833714 |
| 03:36.20 | drmessano | cybrNaut: Please document all of the many points of failure involved in producing the faxed document |
| 03:40.26 | cybrNaut | i can't think of any ATM |
| 03:41.10 | drmessano | Really? So no issues associated with using a computer to produce a document and print it to prepare for faxing? |
| 03:41.12 | cybrNaut | perhaps a sheet-feeder could eat the doc? |
| 03:41.52 | drmessano | Surely you don't just scribble on a piece of paper and fax it |
| 03:41.59 | cybrNaut | why would you print it? Are we talking fax machines so old they don't have a digital input? |
| 03:42.19 | drmessano | So we're using fax modems? a fax server? |
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| 03:43.13 | drmessano | The things that make fax unreliable: |
| 03:43.13 | drmessano | some idiot in the office dumped the faxes and took out the garbage before reading them. (source, cc: u/Deceptiveideas u/supermunchkin001) |
| 03:43.15 | cybrNaut | all fax equipment i've encountered in the past ~20 years has had a digital input (regardless of whether it's a standalone machine or MFD or server) |
| 03:43.23 | drmessano | ^ You clearly pointed to them being in the analog domain |
| 03:43.28 | drmessano | So they're digital now? |
| 03:43.48 | cybrNaut | i thought you were talking about /producing/ a doc, not receiving it |
| 03:43.57 | drmessano | I am |
| 03:44.01 | igcewieling | With SIP headers used for more things and getting bigger, I can see how UDP SIP might be fragmented, but I'd not call it unreliable. |
| 03:44.24 | cybrNaut | on the producing side, the guy dumping the faxes w/out reading them isn't a factor |
| 03:44.57 | drmessano | 23:42:00 <cybrNaut> why would you print it? Are we talking fax machines so old they don't have a digital input? <--- Then why do you reference "dumping faxes in the trash" if we're not talking about some ancient machine? Why wouldnt they be stored digitally or sent to email? |
| 03:45.18 | drmessano | Again, you seem to elude to using an ancient fax for.. recieve only? |
| 03:45.42 | cybrNaut | the dumping of faxes is a problem on the receiving side, not in producing a doc to send |
| 03:45.50 | drmessano | Ok, so we're using a modern MFC then |
| 03:47.25 | drmessano | So we're using what sort of lines to send these faxes? |
| 03:48.53 | cybrNaut | transmission can be a problem for sure |
| 03:49.49 | cybrNaut | e.g. if you're using a SIP line it can fail due to a crappy connection |
| 03:50.01 | drmessano | No, it can fail because it's stop |
| 03:50.04 | drmessano | No, it can fail because it's SIP |
| 03:50.28 | cybrNaut | indeed SIP is quite fragile for fax |
| 03:50.34 | drmessano | Faxes do not fail over VoIP because of a crappy connection, they fail because it's Fax over VoIP |
| 03:51.07 | drmessano | and the whole world is VoIP |
| 03:52.25 | cybrNaut | when i use a fax service from a web UI, there's never a sending problem only a problem if the receiving side isn't setup or listening properly |
| 03:52.46 | cybrNaut | when I send a fax directly myself over SIP, it's hit or miss |
| 03:53.00 | drmessano | Umm.. |
| 03:53.07 | cybrNaut | i'm not sure what the fax services are doing differently but they're reliable |
| 03:53.22 | drmessano | The Web UI still has to initiate a process that goes over the PSTN |
| 03:53.26 | drmessano | Which is all IP now |
| 03:54.12 | drmessano | Quite often fax services use SMTP as a frontend |
| 03:58.44 | cybrNaut | as soon as SMTP is in the loop then all the reliability problems of email can manifest. I faxed something 3 times in the past couple weeks to the same org. Fax was successfully delivered but then it was routed over email and the receiving org is backlogged on their email, can't find it |
| 03:59.30 | drmessano | Our faxes pretty much get lost in the maze of fax spam |
| 03:59.36 | drmessano | Zero email issues |
| 04:00.04 | cybrNaut | recipient says they sitting on a pile of thousands of emails and are understaffed during coronavirus |
| 04:00.22 | drmessano | But they have the staff to check faxes? |
| 04:00.30 | cybrNaut | b/c their fax routes to email, it ends up in the same clusterfucked pile |
| 04:01.03 | cybrNaut | since it comes to the staff by email, it's the staff that handles the email who gets the fax |
| 04:01.39 | drmessano | ooook |
| 04:02.21 | cybrNaut | and if they didn't have a fax, i would not be able to send them the docs. They use gmail, and Google has broken email. |
| 04:02.27 | drmessano | You know that none of this makes actual sense, right? |
| 04:02.30 | cybrNaut | Google refuses email from residential IPs |
| 04:03.07 | drmessano | You're running a mail server on a residential IP ? |
| 04:03.07 | cybrNaut | you don't think faxes are copied into emails on the receiving end? |
| 04:03.28 | cybrNaut | it's actually quite common that faxes get repackaged as email on the receiving side |
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| 04:03.46 | drmessano | I know it is. We do it |
| 04:03.54 | drmessano | That wasn't what I was referring to |
| 04:04.05 | cybrNaut | of course, when i send email from home i'm on a residential IP |
| 04:04.10 | drmessano | This whole thing about lost emails and somehow a fax getting through |
| 04:04.21 | drmessano | I send mail from my residential IP |
| 04:04.25 | drmessano | Works fine |
| 04:04.49 | drmessano | What specifically is broken? |
| 04:05.07 | cybrNaut | then you're relaying your mail through a 3rd party host, which means you're exposing all your metadata to them, likely a corporation |
| 04:05.31 | drmessano | O.o |
| 04:05.42 | cybrNaut | i won't share my outbound mail w/an extra 3rd party just to dance for Google and pad their bottom line |
| 04:06.33 | cybrNaut | I'll send direct RFC-compliant messages to the recipient's server. The only 3rd party who sees it is the recipient's email provider |
| 04:06.37 | drmessano | So you expect to be able to send mail blindly from your residential IP, without relaying. Thats neat |
| 04:06.53 | cybrNaut | of course. This is why RFCs exist |
| 04:07.18 | drmessano | Yeah, and it's literally been an issue for well over 15 years to do so |
| 04:07.27 | cybrNaut | Google and MS have broken the interoperability that RFCs are designed to make shit work. IOW, they have broken email |
| 04:07.32 | drmessano | But you insist on trying, because "Corps are evil" |
| 04:07.54 | drmessano | Even though basically everyone blocks residential IP ranges, and ISPs often block SMTP ports |
| 04:08.13 | drmessano | MS and Google didn't break anything. |
| 04:08.36 | cybrNaut | and for 15 yrs i've not supported corps w/a collateral damage prone policy. If i'm blocked (which is more and more frequent) i tell the recipient to get an email service that works if they want email from me |
| 04:08.40 | drmessano | It's an anti-spam measure that's been in place since, well, I tried to run a mail server at home 15-20 years ago |
| 04:08.53 | drmessano | lol |
| 04:08.53 | cybrNaut | it's an anti-ham measure |
| 04:08.55 | drmessano | Oh man |
| 04:09.21 | cybrNaut | treating ham like spam is precisely the breakage.. they've done more damage than spammers themselves |
| 04:09.23 | drmessano | "i tell the recipient to get an email service that works if they want email from me" <-- That's rich, and kind of a fairytale |
| 04:10.13 | drmessano | On that note.. good luck with the faxing |
| 04:10.19 | drmessano | im out |
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| 15:17.40 | igcewieling | Circuit ordered from Windstream: 10 October 2019 Circuit delivered: 27 May 2020 |
| 15:18.07 | sibiria | :-| |
| 15:27.24 | Samot | Was a build out required? |
| 15:40.46 | *** join/#asterisk miralin1 (~Thunderbi@195.209.246.194) |
| 15:54.12 | igcewieling | Doesn't look like it. |
| 15:56.23 | Samot | This a common occurance? |
| 15:57.50 | igcewieling | Not usually 8 months, but at least 3 months. |
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| 19:27.49 | *** part/#asterisk psymin (~psymin@mail.lastbest.net) |
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| 20:01.55 | *** mode/#asterisk [+o cresl1n] by ChanServ |
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| 23:51.49 | Kobaz | well this is fun |
| 23:51.50 | Kobaz | http://dpaste.com/3HN595F |
| 23:51.56 | Kobaz | that invite garbled my console |
| 23:53.40 | *** join/#asterisk eharris (~eharris@unaffiliated/eharris) |