| 12:08:00 | fusero | hi |
| 12:08:34 | edd | hi |
| 14:31:01 | fusero | edd: do you remember what packages are needed for bluepin? |
| 14:31:32 | edd | python-gtk (>= 0.6.8), python (>= 2.1.2) |
| 14:31:47 | edd | (copied from the debian package information) |
| 23:03:08 | edd | hey |
| 23:06:16 | collord | g'day |
| 23:08:03 | edd | 's nearing the end of a 2 day stint of bluez hacking |
| 23:08:26 | collord | sweet |
| 23:08:41 | collord | i noticed the screenshots of that browser app went away |
| 23:08:43 | collord | unless i'm nuts |
| 23:08:58 | edd | from where? |
| 23:10:59 | collord | i thought i saw some on your homepage |
| 23:12:19 | edd | there are two gui projects underway at least |
| 23:12:25 | edd | the most mature still is marcel's bluewire |
| 23:12:29 | edd | http://www.holtmann.org/software/bluewire/ |
| 23:13:03 | collord | crap |
| 23:13:07 | collord | i had you and he confused |
| 23:13:11 | edd | i thought so :) |
| 23:13:16 | collord | what a lamer i am |
| 23:13:19 | edd | the one i'm working on is at http://heddley.com/edd/2002/10/09/btexp.png |
| 23:13:31 | edd | which is targeted at gnom2 |
| 23:13:38 | collord | ooooh pretty |
| 23:13:40 | collord | yeah |
| 23:14:02 | edd | but i'm some way behind because it gets the least of my time |
| 23:14:10 | edd | but i just fixed a bug in libsdp that helps me some |
| 23:14:11 | collord | do you know what marcel's plans are for bluewire? |
| 23:14:17 | edd | no. |
| 23:14:32 | edd | i'm also not convinced that such browsers are the right UI |
| 23:14:41 | collord | bah! |
| 23:14:43 | edd | sure, they let you know what's out there, but after that there's not a lot of point in them |
| 23:14:55 | collord | if they exist for windows they're the right UI ;-) |
| 23:15:20 | collord | well, the "phone" object's DUN could launch a PPP config for it... |
| 23:15:21 | collord | etc. |
| 23:15:32 | collord | if linux were all integrated like that... |
| 23:15:45 | edd | sure, i'm up for gui configuration tools. |
| 23:16:19 | edd | but often you'll want the config in a different place |
| 23:16:33 | edd | e.g. the right place for the DUN connection setup is in the ppp configuration tool |
| 23:16:48 | edd | where a paired bluetooth phone can appear as one of the possible modems |
| 23:17:35 | edd | or, if we're thinking about OBEX sync, i really want the synchronization controls say in my PIM program (e.g. Evolution), where i configure which device to synchronize with |
| 23:17:55 | edd | from my point of view it's the devices that matter, not the method used to connect them |
| 23:18:22 | edd | however, there's an argument for the other view, which is that each connection method is sufficiently different that it can't be handled transparently |
| 23:18:36 | edd | in particular, bluetooth devices seem to like to appear/disappear to bluez as they see fit :) |
| 23:18:45 | collord | hrm |
| 23:18:49 | edd | one moment, hcitool scan shows them, the next ... *poof* :) |
| 23:18:56 | collord | that isn't good. |
| 23:19:02 | collord | i haven't gotten that far even |
| 23:19:27 | edd | is early days. |
| 23:19:28 | collord | you're right though, regarding the different UIs for functionality |
| 23:19:43 | collord | what kind of model needs to be adopted for maximum diversity? |
| 23:20:07 | collord | windows even doesn't have it clear |
| 23:20:15 | collord | there *is* a unified hardware manager |
| 23:20:19 | edd | i don't like the bluetooth control stuff i've seen in windows |
| 23:20:26 | edd | it's not integrated into the UI |
| 23:20:31 | edd | s/UI/OS. |
| 23:20:44 | edd | i wouldn't mind seeing how Mac OS X manages it |
| 23:20:45 | collord | have you seen the XP original stuff? |
| 23:20:52 | edd | nope, only used on 98. |
| 23:20:55 | collord | not just 3rd party drivers |
| 23:20:56 | edd | i try never to run windows. |
| 23:20:57 | collord | yeah |
| 23:21:00 | collord | i' |
| 23:21:12 | collord | i am talking out my arse here too, i haven't booted win for months |
| 23:21:25 | collord | however, i've caught glimpses of colleagues |
| 23:21:38 | collord | like 802.11 |
| 23:21:49 | collord | it's like any new technology |
| 23:22:04 | collord | the people selling the devices want to have the best configurator/etc. |
| 23:22:10 | collord | and advertise application compatibility |
| 23:22:15 | edd | yeah |
| 23:22:27 | edd | well, fwiw i think BlueZ has got it right with rfcomm |
| 23:22:36 | collord | then windows subsumes the configuration abilities (e.g. XP's zeroconfig wifi stuff) |
| 23:23:03 | collord | yeah i'm looking forward to my date with the kernel, ergo new bluez |
| 23:23:06 | edd | aye. the challenge with linux is of course that we're responsible for both halves :) |
| 23:23:14 | collord | all 3 halves! |
| 23:23:22 | edd | quite :) |
| 23:23:29 | collord | OSX at least is sort of like build it and they will come |
| 23:23:32 | collord | regarding hardware |
| 23:23:43 | collord | and new fucntionalities... they're actually innovating |
| 23:24:12 | edd | well, reviving what NeXT and UNIX did 10 years ago, but prettier ;) |
| 23:24:19 | edd | but doing a good job of it, i'll admit |
| 23:24:26 | collord | in an architectural way, yes |
| 23:24:40 | collord | any OS should be able to add features and have a good interface though |
| 23:25:01 | edd | here's one challenge i find with bluetooth.... |
| 23:25:08 | edd | the nature of it is that the devices are persona; |
| 23:25:10 | edd | personal |
| 23:25:21 | edd | yet the default assumption is that the user is unprivileged. |
| 23:25:28 | edd | and therefore doesn't have control over devices. |
| 23:25:43 | edd | (i'm talking on linux here) |
| 23:26:01 | edd | so linux historically isn't very good with things that appear and disappear |
| 23:26:10 | edd | hotplug's helping this, of course. |
| 23:26:14 | collord | yes |
| 23:26:20 | edd | but it certainly presents challenges at the gui configuration level. |
| 23:26:34 | collord | i was talking with greg k-h last night about bluetooth |
| 23:26:43 | edd | in person? |
| 23:26:45 | collord | yeah |
| 23:27:07 | edd | he's my personal hero, but i've never really chatted with him, irc or otherwise. |
| 23:27:10 | collord | they're not too worried about it |
| 23:27:17 | collord | yeah he's cool |
| 23:27:35 | collord | cool enough to respond to a plea to be on the linuxfund developer board, and follow through with it |
| 23:27:46 | collord | that was the business of the evening |
| 23:27:57 | collord | we're not close personal friends or anything |
| 23:28:05 | collord | and i think he thinks i'm an idiot... |
| 23:28:05 | edd | nods |
| 23:28:07 | collord | but besides that... |
| 23:28:12 | edd | lol |
| 23:29:21 | edd | finds linuxfund.org |
| 23:30:20 | collord | my point was that bluetooth was a little bit different |
| 23:30:27 | collord | than A) a network connection |
| 23:30:33 | collord | than B) a peripheral connection |
| 23:30:39 | collord | than C) a |
| 23:30:41 | collord | "bus" |
| 23:30:53 | collord | the driver model can handle it, sure |
| 23:31:08 | collord | but, well, their interest is in the kernel |
| 23:31:09 | collord | of course |
| 23:32:35 | edd | it's hard to see what more hotplug needs to do for bluetooth now |
| 23:33:06 | edd | it's pretty much a user decision as to what kind of bluetooth services a box will provide. |
| 23:34:16 | collord | right |
| 23:34:38 | collord | one of the real problems with linux is that it as an OS is shoved into many roles |
| 23:34:46 | collord | the beauty is that it can |
| 23:35:50 | collord | but, if the tools are designed for __ e.g. emphasizing networking |
| 23:36:20 | collord | then maybe something e.g. managing more traditional perhipherals that happen to be connected via BT is de-emphasized |
| 23:37:01 | collord | BNEP |
| 23:37:34 | collord | i dunno |
| 23:37:48 | edd | i've been toying with BNEP today |
| 23:37:52 | edd | it's a toughie |
| 23:37:53 | collord | yeah? |
| 23:37:56 | edd | it's too damn versatile :) |
| 23:38:09 | collord | is BNEP 802.15? |
| 23:38:24 | collord | or does it require silicon differences viz. BT 1.1 |
| 23:38:48 | edd | umm, well, it runs ok with my existing kit and bluez.. |
| 23:39:03 | edd | i'm not that familiar with all the 802.foo numbers |
| 23:39:31 | edd | thing is it's going to take me a day of shell scripting to make a configurator for it |
| 23:39:39 | collord | heh |
| 23:39:56 | edd | and i'm not even going to bother taking it to GUI just now |
| 23:39:57 | collord | i haven't studied it much |
| 23:40:18 | collord | is there any distro-specific bluetooth stuff in the works? |
| 23:40:21 | collord | i wonder |
| 23:40:39 | collord | like redhat's wifi configurator |
| 23:40:40 | edd | a BT device using bnep can basically be in slave or master mode. but in master mode there are a bunch of options, ie. do you have a separate net, do you bridge, do you run dhcp? |
| 23:40:51 | edd | i've not seen any movement on bluez in redhat |
| 23:41:02 | edd | i don't think there's even anyone making rpms |
| 23:41:11 | collord | BNEP is designed to make scatternets? |
| 23:41:36 | edd | as i understand it it tunnels ethernet on piconets |
| 23:41:58 | collord | ah |
| 23:43:35 | collord | do the BT MAC identifiers follow IEEE assignments |
| 23:43:36 | collord | ? |
| 23:43:43 | collord | just trying to figure out what kind of phone you have |
| 23:43:49 | edd | lol |
| 23:44:05 | edd | i don't know the answer i'm afraid |
| 23:44:13 | collord | ericsson? |
| 23:44:15 | edd | altough i do know what kind of phone i have :) |
| 23:44:15 | collord | yeah |
| 23:44:25 | edd | yes, it's an ericcson r520 |
| 23:44:31 | edd | you got that from the mac addr? |
| 23:44:35 | collord | 008037 yep |
| 23:44:37 | collord | that's the vendor code |
| 23:44:45 | collord | the start of the "Edd Dumbill" device MAC |
| 23:44:54 | edd | cool |
| 23:45:07 | edd | you will be able to tell that the first device then is the Dlink DWB120M |
| 23:45:12 | edd | cute little thing |
| 23:45:21 | collord | on your powerbook? |
| 23:45:22 | edd | 1.5x.75 inches |
| 23:45:27 | edd | nope, on my x86 |
| 23:45:33 | collord | ah |
| 23:45:41 | collord | my EPoX were cheaper i'm sure |
| 23:45:49 | edd | there's a bug with the usb ohci driver prevents it working on iBook right now |
| 23:45:50 | collord | the microsoft ones look the coolest of the dongles i've seen |
| 23:45:59 | collord | oh no, that's a faux pas |
| 23:46:21 | edd | smaller than the epox |
| 23:46:41 | edd | my other dongle is a TDK one |
| 23:46:45 | collord | ugly |
| 23:46:51 | edd | which works fine, but form factor leaves someting to be desired |
| 23:47:40 | edd | discovers bluetooth.weblogs.com |
| 23:48:29 | collord | he's a bit slow |
| 23:49:34 | edd | i don't bother following bluetooth media stories much |
| 23:49:50 | edd | i have only limited attention |
| 23:54:54 | collord | yes, we're all going crazy |
