| 02:48.26 | *** join/#brlcad dan_falck (~danfalck@wbar1.sea1-4-5-017-067.sea1.dsl-verizon.net) |
| 05:49.42 | *** join/#brlcad Twingy (~justin@pcp0011643033pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) |
| 17:08.18 | *** join/#brlcad Axios (mklit@dolomit-ext.tnb.aau.dk) |
| 17:09.30 | Axios | hi |
| 17:10.05 | Axios | are there a fast tutorial, that describes how to install, and get a few basic things up and running? |
| 17:10.21 | Axios | brlcad seems very interesting |
| 17:17.26 | brlcad | hi axios |
| 17:17.47 | brlcad | there are complete tutorial volumes (books) |
| 17:17.56 | brlcad | available on the website, http://brlcad.org |
| 17:18.18 | brlcad | other than that, I can walk you through whatever you like too |
| 17:18.40 | brlcad | installation from source is pretty simple |
| 17:19.11 | brlcad | for most at least :) |
| 17:23.46 | Axios | brlcad: there are a compiled version at sourceforge, cant I use that? |
| 17:23.56 | brlcad | depends |
| 17:24.03 | brlcad | what os are you using? |
| 17:24.21 | Axios | debian linux |
| 17:24.35 | Axios | on a amd athlon cpu |
| 17:24.46 | brlcad | the ia32 for linux should work |
| 17:24.53 | Axios | ok |
| 17:25.04 | Axios | i downloaded it, and decompressed it |
| 17:25.14 | brlcad | okay |
| 17:25.15 | Axios | is that all I have to do? |
| 17:25.32 | brlcad | that made a usr directory with a brlcad7.0 inside it, yes? |
| 17:25.44 | Axios | yes |
| 17:26.04 | brlcad | ok now with root privileges, mv usr/brlcad7.0 /usr/. |
| 17:28.19 | Axios | how do I remove it, if I want to do that? |
| 17:28.34 | Axios | isnt that almost impossible, if I move the files? |
| 17:28.40 | brlcad | you just delete the /usr/brlcad7.0 directory |
| 17:29.03 | Axios | sure |
| 17:29.09 | brlcad | no, brl-cad is completely contained to there, so deletion is as simple as "rm -rf /usr/brlcad7.0" |
| 17:29.13 | Axios | misunderstood you at first |
| 17:30.41 | Axios | I moved it |
| 17:30.46 | Axios | how do I start it up? |
| 17:31.04 | brlcad | is there a /usr/brlcad7.0/ia32 or a bunch of dirs? |
| 17:31.30 | Axios | there is a /usr/brlcad |
| 17:31.50 | brlcad | hmm? |
| 17:31.52 | Axios | /usr/blrcad7.0/ia32 to be precise |
| 17:31.58 | brlcad | okay |
| 17:32.10 | Axios | witch has some dir |
| 17:32.12 | Axios | s |
| 17:32.14 | brlcad | so last step is to add brl-cad's bin directory to your path |
| 17:32.26 | brlcad | e.g. export PATH=/usr/brlcad.7.0/ia32/bin:$PATH |
| 17:32.48 | Axios | yeah |
| 17:32.56 | brlcad | you can add that to your user or system .profile |
| 17:33.11 | Axios | sure |
| 17:33.16 | brlcad | the quick and simple test if you got it all right is to type: mged |
| 17:33.45 | brlcad | brl-cad consists of several hundred programs, mged is one of the gui-based solid modelers |
| 17:33.56 | Axios | bash: mged: command not found |
| 17:34.11 | brlcad | you don't have the PATH set correctly |
| 17:34.19 | Axios | must be something with path |
| 17:34.25 | brlcad | perhaps you typed blrcad again? :) |
| 17:34.40 | brlcad | bee are ell cad :) |
| 17:34.44 | Axios | it works with ./mged from the bin directory |
| 17:35.21 | brlcad | that's good to know |
| 17:35.41 | *** join/#brlcad [Prez|Kennedy] (~Matthew@130.85.253.237) |
| 17:36.40 | Axios | it all works now |
| 17:36.47 | brlcad | I'd suggest reading http://brlcad.org/overview.html if you haven't already, and then http://brlcad.org/VolumeII-Introduction_to_MGED.pdf for a full walk-through tutorial of mged |
| 17:36.54 | Axios | the fonts are huge |
| 17:37.00 | brlcad | :) |
| 17:37.13 | Axios | is that normal? |
| 17:37.36 | brlcad | mged's primary author didn't have the greatest eyesight -- it's configurable |
| 17:37.42 | brlcad | :) |
| 17:37.57 | Axios | lol |
| 17:38.31 | brlcad | File -> Preferences -> Fonts |
| 17:38.34 | Axios | I have been using products like autodesk inventor, and solidworks |
| 17:38.40 | Axios | how does this compare? |
| 17:38.58 | brlcad | fairly different markets |
| 17:39.18 | brlcad | as powerful, if not more-so on the modeling capabilities, but not as user-friendly |
| 17:39.27 | Axios | okay |
| 17:39.33 | Axios | that doesn't bother me |
| 17:39.34 | brlcad | brl-cad has a lot of embedded expert knowledge, hidden commands, etc |
| 17:39.41 | brlcad | like discovering the unix command line |
| 17:39.41 | Axios | okay |
| 17:39.54 | brlcad | the tutorials help with that to a great extent at least for mged |
| 17:40.09 | brlcad | but like I said, there are over 400 tools that comprise brl-cad |
| 17:40.14 | *** join/#brlcad DarkMaster (~Matthew@130.85.253.237) |
| 17:40.23 | Axios | okay |
| 17:40.27 | brlcad | there is a new modeler in development now (actually two) that will be much more "familiar" to you |
| 17:40.41 | Axios | what are they? |
| 17:40.45 | brlcad | so keep an eye out for them.. "archer" is the first you'll likely hear about |
| 17:41.18 | brlcad | gui-based solid modeling |
| 17:41.47 | Axios | are they open source? |
| 17:42.07 | brlcad | Axios: for a quick mged look-see, type "make sph sph" into the command window and then type "rt -F/dev/Xl -s1024" |
| 17:42.46 | brlcad | er, you'll have to open a database first too.. "opendb test.g" before those two if you haven't already |
| 17:43.20 | Axios | Error: A database is not open! |
| 17:43.28 | brlcad | yeah, type "opendb test.g" |
| 17:43.58 | brlcad | or click on File -> New... |
| 17:44.30 | Axios | nice |
| 17:44.40 | Axios | where does it save the picture? |
| 17:44.56 | Axios | it exits when its done |
| 17:45.08 | brlcad | that rt command basically said to render it to a lingering X11 window |
| 17:45.20 | brlcad | you can render to a file as well with other options |
| 17:45.38 | brlcad | File -> Raytrace is the gui control panel for that same thing |
| 17:47.05 | brlcad | Axios: something more interesting to look at is http://db.brlcad.org/geometry/havoc.g |
| 17:47.23 | Axios | this is special |
| 17:47.49 | Axios | i tried ctrl-z and the sphere starts rotating |
| 17:47.59 | brlcad | yep |
| 17:48.03 | Axios | the more z's the faster |
| 17:48.13 | brlcad | X and Y will do the other axes :) |
| 17:48.21 | brlcad | hit 0 to stop it |
| 17:48.33 | brlcad | 3 for a standard view |
| 17:48.59 | brlcad | t for top, l for left, r for right, f for front |
| 17:49.18 | Axios | okay |
| 17:49.37 | Axios | is it possible render it and take a spin around it? |
| 17:49.40 | brlcad | the rotation control actually hooks into old SGI knob devices that were used in modeling "back in the early 80's" |
| 17:49.55 | brlcad | it is possible, but not trivial to set up |
| 17:50.06 | brlcad | the animation capabilities are very mathematical |
| 17:50.18 | Axios | brlcad has a lot of history |
| 17:50.52 | brlcad | to give you an idea of the animation, there's a paper on the website: http://brlcad.org/reports/tr-313/index.html |
| 17:51.10 | brlcad | yes, it does .. longer than most |
| 17:51.26 | Axios | brlcad: how long have you been using it? |
| 17:51.32 | brlcad | one of the fastest solid model raytracers too (read, non-surface only) |
| 17:52.11 | brlcad | oh, lesse -- not as long as some of the other guys |
| 17:52.41 | brlcad | 7 or 8 years maybe |
| 17:52.50 | Axios | okay |
| 17:52.58 | brlcad | started out modeling, then developing |
| 17:53.03 | Axios | I just found it on freshmeat today |
| 17:53.08 | brlcad | i'm by no means one of the expert modelers of it though |
| 17:53.15 | Axios | okay |
| 17:53.16 | brlcad | they are just amazing how they can use it |
| 17:53.27 | brlcad | the geometry just flows from their fingers |
| 17:53.31 | Axios | hehe |
| 17:53.51 | Axios | im a student at a university in Denmark |
| 17:53.54 | brlcad | it's a different style of modeling, being a csg-centric modeler |
| 17:53.59 | brlcad | ahh, okay |
| 17:54.11 | Axios | at the university, the use solidworks, but I hate using the mouse all of the time |
| 17:54.24 | brlcad | hehe, well then! |
| 17:54.34 | Axios | you cant work with that program for hours, you would brake your hand |
| 17:54.45 | brlcad | brl-cad is definitely probably up your alley ;) |
| 17:54.49 | Axios | or rather wrist |
| 17:55.10 | brlcad | i understand :) |
| 17:55.39 | Axios | its just a little hard to understand what brlcad can and cannot do |
| 17:55.50 | brlcad | i learned out to drive a mouse with my left hand to deal with my pain (i'm not left handed) |
| 17:56.07 | Axios | what is your proffesion? |
| 17:56.28 | brlcad | Axios: well, in broad strokes it's easy to describe what brl-cad is well and ill suited for |
| 17:56.37 | Axios | I use a trackball, so its not all that bad, but the accurasy isnt good for those programs |
| 17:56.57 | brlcad | i'm a software developer .. official title is a bit winded |
| 17:57.15 | brlcad | a head up brl-cad's open source developments |
| 17:57.25 | brlcad | i use a trackball with my left hand ;) |
| 17:57.33 | Axios | do the make those? |
| 17:57.42 | brlcad | sure |
| 17:57.46 | brlcad | take the trackball |
| 17:57.53 | brlcad | put it under your left hand |
| 17:57.55 | brlcad | :) |
| 17:58.05 | Axios | oh no, you cant be serius |
| 17:58.16 | brlcad | what kind of trackball do you have? |
| 17:58.20 | Axios | you control it with your litle finger? |
| 17:58.30 | Axios | a logitech trackman |
| 17:58.45 | brlcad | ahh, a trackman |
| 17:58.59 | brlcad | those don't work so well |
| 17:59.26 | brlcad | the logitec marble mouse should work fine |
| 17:59.27 | Axios | you use one of those with the ball in the middle? |
| 17:59.32 | brlcad | but my preference |
| 18:00.08 | brlcad | http://www.kensington.com/html/1121.html |
| 18:00.26 | brlcad | the expert mouse pro is great for cad (and gaming) |
| 18:00.44 | brlcad | 11 configurable buttons |
| 18:00.55 | brlcad | works left/right handed |
| 18:01.02 | Axios | I see |
| 18:01.14 | brlcad | and you can take that ball out and throw it at your friends |
| 18:01.15 | Axios | no unix support? |
| 18:01.25 | brlcad | sure is |
| 18:01.42 | brlcad | that's one of the oldest most popular trackballs |
| 18:02.05 | brlcad | the cheaper suitable alternative: http://www.kensington.com/html/2200.html |
| 18:02.14 | Axios | okay, I thought logitech was the only company that made trackballs |
| 18:03.40 | Axios | do you rotate the ball with you palm |
| 18:03.44 | Axios | ? |
| 18:04.05 | brlcad | no, it sits in your fingers |
| 18:04.21 | brlcad | slightly on the top of the palm |
| 18:04.47 | Axios | must try one of thoose some day |
| 18:04.47 | brlcad | so you have subtle side to side hand jestures for moving the ball |
| 18:04.58 | brlcad | liek if you sweep a desk with your fingers |
| 18:05.13 | Axios | I see |
| 18:05.35 | Axios | that gave a nice picture |
| 18:06.05 | brlcad | the ball's the same size and similar weight as a pool ball too, so you can drop an 8 ball in there for nice effect :) |
| 18:06.23 | Axios | does it work? |
| 18:06.29 | brlcad | sure |
| 18:06.29 | Axios | with an 8 ball? |
| 18:06.32 | Axios | nice |
| 18:07.10 | Axios | are there a site, where I can see some pictures and/or animations done with brlcad? |
| 18:08.01 | Axios | the ones on brlcad.org are small, and not at all as interesting as the tanks in the pdf files ;) |
| 18:08.06 | brlcad | there's a couple here http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=105292 |
| 18:08.55 | brlcad | i've got a more to uplaod at some point too |
| 18:09.05 | Axios | I like the old one, in the middle |
| 18:09.12 | Axios | okay |
| 18:09.26 | Axios | oh, its the author right+ |
| 18:09.27 | Axios | ? |
| 18:09.30 | Axios | or one of them |
| 18:09.45 | brlcad | that's the original author -- mike muuss back in the 80's |
| 18:10.00 | Axios | oaky |
| 18:10.47 | brlcad | a better screenshot: http://brlcad.org/images/mged.jpg |
| 18:11.12 | Axios | it could be reel cool, if there were some pictures of something extreme |
| 18:11.26 | Axios | so that you could get an ideo of the limits of the program |
| 18:11.28 | brlcad | there are lots of those |
| 18:11.37 | brlcad | most of them are classified or sensitive :) |
| 18:11.52 | Axios | the one you just linked to seems pretty basic |
| 18:12.04 | brlcad | they are |
| 18:12.14 | Axios | does the army still use brlcad, or are they switching? |
| 18:13.18 | brlcad | it's still very much used |
| 18:13.25 | Axios | okay |
| 18:13.37 | Axios | well, thanks a lot for the help |
| 18:13.41 | brlcad | here's an example model that was rendered in a different light pass: http://db.bzflag.bz/tmp/humvee.png |
| 18:14.03 | Axios | nice!! |
| 18:14.10 | brlcad | by different light pass, I mean not through rt |
| 18:14.52 | Axios | I have to learn brlcad now |
| 18:15.09 | Axios | before I was more sceptical(or how its spelled) |
| 18:15.16 | Axios | 3jeg bliver nød til at lære det |
| 18:15.28 | Axios | sorry, wrong channel |
| 18:15.31 | brlcad | :) |
| 18:15.48 | Axios | thats an example of danish |
| 18:15.55 | brlcad | i figured :) |
| 18:16.26 | Axios | i just posted the pictures to some friends, and said I had to learn brlcad now |
| 18:16.53 | Axios | thanks again for the help |
| 18:17.10 | brlcad | another example: http://db.bzflag.bz/tmp/bradley.png |
| 18:17.20 | Axios | how much time would you gees, that they spend on that humvee? |
| 18:17.40 | brlcad | not as good a render |
| 18:17.49 | brlcad | but more detail |
| 18:18.17 | brlcad | oh, I couldn't say how long it took to make it |
| 18:18.28 | Axios | oh, its for bzflag |
| 18:18.36 | brlcad | it's not |
| 18:18.43 | brlcad | i just happen to be a bz dev too |
| 18:18.50 | Axios | hehe |
| 18:18.51 | brlcad | and I own that domain name |
| 18:19.04 | Axios | wheres .bz? |
| 18:19.25 | brlcad | Belize :) |
| 18:19.36 | brlcad | ~bz |
| 18:19.37 | ibot | bz is probably Belize |
| 18:19.53 | Axios | youre from there, or just own the domain? |
| 18:19.58 | brlcad | just own the domain |
| 18:20.12 | brlcad | it's conveniently the same suffix |
| 18:20.28 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:20.29 | brlcad | ~da |
| 18:20.32 | Axios | nice touch |
| 18:20.36 | brlcad | ~.da |
| 18:20.43 | Axios | .dk |
| 18:20.48 | brlcad | ~dk |
| 18:20.50 | ibot | methinks dk is Denmark |
| 18:21.20 | Axios | I think you have to be a danish citisen to buy .dk's |
| 18:23.29 | Axios | brlcad: if you had to gues on how long i takes to make a humvee like that, what would it be? |
| 18:24.42 | brlcad | it's really dependant upon the modelers skills.. in one of the expert modelers hands probably a week or two |
| 18:24.57 | brlcad | the missing detail is that all of the insides are there too |
| 18:25.05 | brlcad | the engine, the cables, the seats, etc |
| 18:26.32 | Axios | how about just the outside shell? |
| 18:27.01 | brlcad | oh something that simple? |
| 18:27.05 | Axios | jep |
| 18:27.09 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:27.12 | brlcad | in a couple days maybe |
| 18:27.28 | Axios | 14 hours of work? |
| 18:27.30 | brlcad | getting the information simply input takes time |
| 18:27.42 | brlcad | it's possible |
| 18:28.52 | Axios | is brlcad faster than using inventor or solidworks if you are experienced? |
| 18:28.59 | Axios | equally experienced |
| 18:29.30 | Axios | I must say, im very impressed with brlcad |
| 18:30.18 | brlcad | oh, i'm sure if you're equally experienced in those tools and you had the information, you could model in about the same amount of time |
| 18:30.29 | brlcad | especially for a surface model only |
| 18:30.42 | brlcad | which a brl-cad model rarely ever is |
| 18:31.42 | brlcad | the bigger benefit we can also tout is being able to perform signature (i.e. full penetration) analyses on models in general |
| 18:31.56 | Axios | okay |
| 18:31.59 | brlcad | like tell what kinds of geometry are on a given path, and answer that question very quickly |
| 18:32.42 | Axios | in solidworks you can get it to tell you the mass, and momentums and such |
| 18:32.51 | Axios | can you do the same with brlcad? |
| 18:33.31 | brlcad | yes, you can -- though not through mged |
| 18:33.46 | brlcad | rtweight and nirt are good for that |
| 18:35.44 | Axios | its nice that its open source |
| 18:35.59 | Axios | so if you really needed something extra, you could make it |
| 18:37.09 | brlcad | yep |
| 18:37.12 | brlcad | that's the idea |
| 18:37.19 | brlcad | we're the only open source solid modeler |
| 18:37.32 | Axios | is the whole of brlcad open source, or are there still a large portion that is closed? |
| 18:37.33 | brlcad | with millions already invested and an existing user-base |
| 18:37.46 | brlcad | all of brl-cad was open sourced |
| 18:37.55 | Axios | its amazing |
| 18:38.19 | Axios | I thought that there werent any god open source cad tools at all |
| 18:38.20 | brlcad | there are components that were under development that weren't "brought under the umbrella" of brl-cad just yet |
| 18:38.32 | brlcad | those should eventually get merged in, though (like archer) |
| 18:39.01 | brlcad | well, you might not think it's as good as you hope after you're on page 300 of the tutorial :) |
| 18:39.32 | Axios | because theres so much to learn? |
| 18:39.48 | Axios | and yeah, you have to read endless materials |
| 18:42.11 | Axios | but when youre done with it all, you can do more than you ever could with one of the other cads? |
| 18:42.30 | brlcad | there's a lot to learn |
| 18:42.38 | brlcad | a lot of commands and tools |
| 18:43.04 | brlcad | it's geared towards analysis needs specifically too, with very little investment in making a pretty shiny user interface |
| 18:43.09 | Axios | I like using commands, they are totally precise, I hate that dragging and dropping |
| 18:43.23 | Axios | I can see |
| 18:43.48 | brlcad | in fact, mged's origins actually had no gui |
| 18:43.59 | Axios | but like everything else, beauty is only skin deep |
| 18:44.43 | Axios | well, I have a lot of reading to do |
| 18:45.11 | Axios | and thanks again |
| 18:45.35 | Axios | oh one last question |
| 18:45.42 | Axios | why did they open source it? |
| 18:46.29 | brlcad | they are |
| 18:46.36 | brlcad | i fought for 5 years to get it open sourced |
| 18:46.41 | brlcad | it was not easy at all |
| 18:47.22 | Axios | do you work in the military? |
| 18:47.59 | brlcad | e-mail after e-mail to the lawyers, to various levels of management, others |
| 18:48.05 | brlcad | meetings after meetings :) |
| 18:48.30 | Axios | i love the open source revolution |
| 18:48.34 | brlcad | I can't really say that here, if you visit MD I'd be happy to answer in person :) |
| 18:49.01 | Axios | I think i get the point |
| 18:50.03 | brlcad | it was open sourced for lots of reasons |
| 18:50.53 | brlcad | the administrative overhead of the closed-source license agreement that brl-cad had before was rather burdensome |
| 18:51.18 | brlcad | you've actually been able to get brl-cad (including source code) since it was first released |
| 18:52.03 | brlcad | you would have to get a form, fill it out, mail/fax it back.. wait for an approval process, wait for a decryption key to get mailed back to you, download or get sent the software, decrypt it, install it |
| 18:52.12 | Axios | so a lot of not military people have used brlcad? |
| 18:52.21 | brlcad | it was a pain in the rear for users that just want something to download |
| 18:52.31 | brlcad | yeah, a lot of universities and businesses |
| 18:52.32 | Axios | yeag |
| 18:52.42 | Axios | i never heard about it |
| 18:53.00 | Axios | is it good for collision simulations and such? |
| 18:53.22 | brlcad | it's used in codes that do that |
| 18:53.23 | Axios | were you able to use brlcad for buisness, before it got open sourced? |
| 18:53.39 | brlcad | sure |
| 18:54.24 | Axios | well im off |
| 18:54.33 | brlcad | it was basically similar terms as the LGPL license _except_ that you were prohibited form redistributing brl-cad (i.e. you had to come to us to get it, fill out the form, etc) |
| 18:54.46 | Axios | okay |
| 18:54.58 | Axios | so there wasnt not much difference |
| 18:55.02 | brlcad | so going open source was just an easy simplification in a way |
| 18:55.11 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:55.17 | brlcad | it's a huge difference to development |
| 18:55.21 | Axios | are there other projects like this? |
| 18:55.23 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:55.29 | brlcad | but mainly because it's so mcuh easier to collaborate now |
| 18:55.31 | Axios | you are a lot more free |
| 18:55.36 | brlcad | for new developers to get directly involved |
| 18:55.44 | brlcad | for new features to get added |
| 18:55.49 | Axios | so brlcad is gonna change a lot? |
| 18:56.10 | brlcad | oh, we'll see what happens :) |
| 18:56.19 | brlcad | there are core values that are protected by the core devs |
| 18:56.30 | Axios | its hard to build something like a cad system that is open source from scratch |
| 18:56.33 | brlcad | but there are also long-term improvement goals |
| 18:56.38 | brlcad | it is |
| 18:56.45 | brlcad | people don't realize that at all |
| 18:56.56 | Axios | almost impossible |
| 18:57.01 | brlcad | the reason unigraphics and pro/E and solid works can charge so much |
| 18:57.07 | brlcad | they've invested millions |
| 18:57.12 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:57.20 | Axios | on physics and matematics |
| 18:57.25 | Axios | programmers |
| 18:57.31 | brlcad | if you think about even the time in brl-cad .. 20 years with a team of 5-10 directly/specifically working on brl-cad |
| 18:57.31 | Axios | none of thoose are cheap to hire |
| 18:57.46 | brlcad | do the math on their salaries alone and you start seeing the $$$ |
| 18:57.53 | Axios | yeah |
| 18:58.24 | brlcad | yes, and the math and computer science skills needed.. not an everyday hacker |
| 18:58.28 | Axios | most big open source projects start of with something thats already semi done |
| 18:58.50 | Axios | and then it just get polished and beautiful |
| 18:59.05 | Axios | all the errors get out of the code, with time |
| 18:59.15 | brlcad | beatiful is in the eye of the (sometimes twisted) beholder, but yes, I agree ;) |
| 18:59.25 | Axios | lol |
| 19:00.02 | brlcad | it's a slow continual improvement usually |
| 19:00.34 | Axios | you probadly would be cut of, of all your social relations, if you talk about beaty and computers |
| 19:00.34 | brlcad | not as fast as funded, but it's continual -- like the tortoise vs. rabbit parable |
| 19:00.47 | brlcad | :) |
| 19:01.02 | Axios | tortoise vs. rabbit |
| 19:01.14 | brlcad | well if you run into anything ugly in brl-cad, feel free to drop me a line or post it up on the website |
| 19:01.30 | brlcad | you can make feature requests and post bugs up on sf.net |
| 19:01.42 | Axios | im not good at programming |
| 19:01.43 | Axios | yet |
| 19:01.46 | brlcad | http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=105292&atid=640805 |
| 19:02.06 | brlcad | there's plenty to do that does not involve programming :) |
| 19:02.30 | brlcad | heck even if you just learn how to model and make suggestions for improvement, that's very useful ;) |
| 19:03.06 | Axios | okay, I will certainly learn to model |
| 19:03.26 | Axios | if not I get a headecke whilst reading the manual |
| 19:03.32 | brlcad | :) |
| 19:03.56 | brlcad | you might want to just jump to the glossaries and command indices at the end from time to time and just poke around |
| 19:04.09 | Axios | yeah |
| 19:04.11 | brlcad | take a look at that havoc.g if you want a more "full" model |
| 19:04.23 | Axios | it will take months to learn this system |
| 19:04.32 | brlcad | it's a helicopter model that's decent enough to play with |
| 19:04.34 | Axios | how do i that? |
| 19:04.42 | Axios | can i just load it? |
| 19:05.03 | brlcad | yes, File -> Open |
| 19:05.12 | brlcad | e havoc |
| 19:05.38 | brlcad | tops <-- gives a list of top level geometry |
| 19:05.52 | brlcad | e [object] <-- displays some geometry |
| 19:06.12 | brlcad | l [object] <-- lists what that geometry is or is comprised of |
| 19:06.20 | brlcad | Z <-- erases the display |
| 19:06.38 | brlcad | who <-- tells you what objects you're looking at |
| 19:08.08 | Axios | i cant find the file.. |
| 19:08.08 | brlcad | there's a glossary of most of the commands at the end of the mged tutorial book |
| 19:08.13 | Axios | havoc.g |
| 19:08.16 | brlcad | http://db.brlcad.org/geometry/havoc.g |
| 19:09.03 | brlcad | you can get all of the geometry files that are in cvs if you like |
| 19:09.19 | brlcad | cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.sf.net:/cvsroot/brlcad login |
| 19:09.23 | brlcad | [no password] |
| 19:09.29 | brlcad | cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.sf.net:/cvsroot/brlcad checkout brlcad/db |
| 19:11.32 | brlcad | of course you'd have to apt-get cvs if you hadn't already |
| 19:13.20 | brlcad | the thing about the graphical window that you'll probably find out early in the tutorial is the "shift-grips" .. pressing shift, alt, etc while click-draggin can do the scaling, translations, zoomings that you're probably used to |
| 19:13.50 | brlcad | there are command equivalents to all of them as well, of course ;) (top, front, left, zoom 1.4, etc) |
| 19:15.14 | Axios | okay |
| 19:15.57 | Axios | the window gets messy, if you raytrace in it |
| 19:16.50 | *** join/#brlcad [Prez|Kennedy] (~Matthew@resnet-253-237.resnet.umbc.edu) |
| 19:17.47 | Axios | it seems very powerfull |
| 19:18.33 | brlcad | you used the raytrace control panel? |
| 19:18.51 | Axios | just pressed file > raytrace |
| 19:19.16 | brlcad | yes, look on that panel window's menu |
| 19:19.36 | brlcad | Framebuffer -> Overlay |
| 19:19.52 | brlcad | that will display the image underneath or on top of the wireframe |
| 19:21.08 | Axios | can i get back to a black background? |
| 19:21.29 | brlcad | there's an fbclear button on that control panel |
| 19:22.11 | Axios | but it doesnt restore to the display I had, before I raytraced it |
| 19:22.41 | brlcad | did you change the underlay/overlay? |
| 19:22.47 | Axios | yes |
| 19:23.10 | Axios | afterwards i did the fbclear |
| 19:23.11 | brlcad | so you have to put it back under and/or turn the framebuffer off |
| 19:23.15 | Axios | and the screen is blue |
| 19:23.50 | brlcad | that's the color setting on the control panel |
| 19:23.50 | brlcad | 0 0 50 |
| 19:23.55 | Axios | now i get it |
| 19:24.12 | brlcad | Framebuffer -> Active will turn it on/off |
| 19:24.13 | Axios | does alt + click do anything? |
| 19:24.16 | Axios | yeah |
| 19:24.21 | Axios | i can see |
| 19:24.45 | brlcad | "framebuffer" is the thing you render into when you raytrace |
| 19:24.53 | brlcad | it's completely separate from the wireframe |
| 19:25.48 | Axios | yeah |
| 19:26.24 | Axios | is it possible to make it solid and rotate it, instead of just the wireframe? |
| 19:26.54 | brlcad | it is, though doing that with the full blown havoc is not recommended |
| 19:27.28 | Axios | isnt opengl enabled? |
| 19:28.05 | brlcad | it is, but the conversion from solid geometry to opengl triangles takes a few seconds |
| 19:28.13 | brlcad | is your computer "fast"? :) |
| 19:28.14 | Axios | its fun that games and such get so high performance, while other program doesnt get anything near that |
| 19:28.26 | Axios | xp 3000+ with an nvidia gfx |
| 19:28.30 | Axios | so okay fast |
| 19:28.41 | Axios | but not a super computer |
| 19:28.46 | brlcad | should be.. can give it a try |
| 19:28.55 | brlcad | try something simple first: |
| 19:29.25 | brlcad | first go to Misc menu |
| 19:29.36 | brlcad | turn off Z-clipping, turn on Lighting |
| 19:30.29 | Axios | on the havoc? |
| 19:30.39 | brlcad | doesn't matter |
| 19:31.29 | Axios | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:32.01 | brlcad | there's more.. hold on |
| 19:32.11 | brlcad | Z |
| 19:32.17 | brlcad | make sph sph |
| 19:33.30 | brlcad | shaded_mode 2 |
| 19:34.28 | brlcad | my bad, turn z-clipping back on |
| 19:34.40 | brlcad | B sph |
| 19:34.57 | brlcad | it should show up shaded |
| 19:35.17 | Axios | nice |
| 19:35.24 | Axios | looks like a golfball |
| 19:35.37 | brlcad | okay, now B havoc |
| 19:35.46 | brlcad | should take a few seconds |
| 19:36.22 | brlcad | btw, the new modeler does this all by default so there's no delays etc |
| 19:36.27 | brlcad | more like a game ;) |
| 19:36.32 | Axios | ;) |
| 19:36.40 | Axios | with opengl support? |
| 19:37.00 | brlcad | opengl is presently required |
| 19:37.07 | brlcad | at least software mode |
| 19:37.24 | brlcad | which is pretty much anything made within the last 10 years |
| 19:37.46 | brlcad | havoc still churning? |
| 19:37.46 | Axios | it takes some time |
| 19:37.49 | Axios | jep |
| 19:37.54 | brlcad | heh |
| 19:37.58 | Axios | but it isnt takin up cpu... |
| 19:38.44 | Axios | mged seems a bit frozen |
| 19:39.06 | brlcad | hmmm |
| 19:39.08 | Axios | a lot actually |
| 19:39.43 | brlcad | that's odd for sure |
| 19:39.54 | Axios | i think its broken |
| 19:40.04 | brlcad | could very well be |
| 19:40.10 | brlcad | killall mged .. |
| 19:40.28 | brlcad | i'll have to take a look at that |
| 19:40.40 | Axios | did it do the same with yours? |
| 19:40.44 | brlcad | shaded_mode is still experimental with mged |
| 19:41.02 | brlcad | yes it did |
| 19:41.07 | Axios | oh |
| 19:41.13 | Axios | i love linux |
| 19:41.25 | brlcad | though it just worked fine the other day on my g5 |
| 19:41.29 | Axios | it doesnt freeze it the apps freeze |
| 19:41.33 | Axios | nice |
| 19:41.40 | Axios | it runs on ppc? |
| 19:42.20 | brlcad | brl-cad runs on just about anything |
| 19:42.20 | Axios | will it run okay on my 1,2 ghz g4 ibook? |
| 19:42.20 | brlcad | it was designed to scale up to as big as they come (2048 processor origin 3000 anyone?) |
| 19:42.32 | brlcad | and it's history takes it back to very small machines that predate tcp/ip |
| 19:42.45 | brlcad | yes, it'll run on your ibook ;) |
| 19:42.50 | Axios | nice |
| 19:43.13 | Axios | it can run on any platform? |
| 19:43.25 | brlcad | presently mged's an X11 app, though -- I'm hoping to decouple it with aqua tk shortly |
| 19:43.42 | brlcad | pretty much any platform.. the only problematic one is Windows |
| 19:43.47 | Axios | is there a windows port? |
| 19:43.58 | brlcad | it does actually run on windows, but only a developer release has been made to date |
| 19:44.06 | Axios | okay |
| 19:44.15 | Axios | not that i wanted to use that |
| 19:44.44 | brlcad | there's been quite a demand for the Windows port for some time .. it's slowly coming along |
| 19:44.50 | Axios | its impossible to find cad for macs |
| 19:45.00 | Axios | oh |
| 19:45.09 | brlcad | there's a good architecture cad program on os x |
| 19:45.19 | brlcad | but yeah, beyhond that there's not |
| 19:45.19 | Axios | okay |
| 19:45.35 | brlcad | that'll soon be remedied ;) |
| 19:45.41 | Axios | but im more into mechanical engineering |
| 19:45.46 | Axios | ;) |
| 19:46.21 | brlcad | it has to be an aqua or at least X11-less app on OS X for anyone to really take it seriously |
| 19:46.28 | brlcad | for that platform, that is |
| 19:46.41 | Axios | i saw someone using it on a mac |
| 19:46.49 | Axios | with x11 |
| 19:46.51 | brlcad | yes, I primarily use it on a mac myself :) |
| 19:46.51 | Axios | though |
| 19:46.59 | Axios | you use mac osx? |
| 19:47.08 | brlcad | but of course :) |
| 19:47.33 | Axios | i bought an ibook 12" for about four weeks ago |
| 19:47.37 | brlcad | as well as linux, bsd, and irix |
| 19:47.45 | brlcad | but os x is my primary platform |
| 19:47.50 | Axios | i wanted to use debian-ppc on it |
| 19:47.57 | Axios | but im not sure anymore |
| 19:48.01 | brlcad | ahh |
| 19:48.11 | brlcad | me and debby have a hate-hate relationship |
| 19:48.16 | Axios | i hate to say it, but that osx isnt that baad |
| 19:48.35 | Axios | what linux do you then use? |
| 19:48.56 | brlcad | debian gave more porting issues than any other linux mostly due to a busted gnu build system setup in debian stable |
| 19:49.33 | brlcad | I prefer to use gentoo, often have to use red hat, I have debian of late as well |
| 19:49.34 | Axios | im using debian - testing |
| 19:49.52 | Axios | oh, i meant unstable |
| 19:49.57 | brlcad | i believe testing has the same misconfiguration |
| 19:49.58 | Axios | debian - unstable |
| 19:50.36 | brlcad | doesn't matter any more -- the build system was changed to accommodate it |
| 19:50.44 | brlcad | but that's a couple days of my life I'm not getting back :) |
| 19:51.28 | brlcad | debian gives similar grief from time to time for bzflag development, so I'm a bit biased |
| 19:51.40 | brlcad | and it's only from a dev's perspective |
| 19:52.05 | brlcad | it's fine for a user, the features and apps are fine, the apt package management is nice |
| 19:52.54 | Axios | very nice |
| 19:53.11 | Axios | im thinking about trying ubuntu |
| 19:53.32 | brlcad | haven't tried that one |
| 19:53.34 | Axios | the unstable branch is a bit unstable at times, and testing is to old |
| 19:53.45 | brlcad | I'm _really_ interested in trying out Zeta |
| 19:53.53 | Axios | havent heard about that one |
| 19:54.22 | brlcad | it's basically rumored to be what's left of BeOS |
| 19:54.56 | Axios | okay |
| 19:55.15 | brlcad | rumor has been that a german company (yellowtab) were granted the rights to the unreleased BeOS 5,1 before Be was sold to Palm |
| 19:55.29 | brlcad | and they're starting to ship 1.0 this month |
| 19:55.41 | brlcad | http://www.yellowtab.com/ |
| 19:55.48 | brlcad | not open source, mind you |
| 19:56.08 | Axios | oh |
| 19:56.11 | brlcad | but I was a big fan of the raw features and performance of BeOS back when they were a choice |
| 19:56.13 | Axios | think ill skip it then |
| 19:56.24 | brlcad | heh :) |
| 19:57.14 | brlcad | there are things that BeOS could do on my old Pentium that I can barely do on my best Linux and Mac workstations |
| 19:57.25 | Axios | wow |
| 19:57.38 | Axios | i though beos was ppc, with their bebox |
| 19:57.54 | brlcad | that was one of their first products |
| 19:58.04 | brlcad | they expanded shortly after that |
| 19:58.27 | brlcad | bebox was eventually killed, and they started giving away all but their pro version of the operating system |
| 19:58.56 | Axios | k |
| 20:00.42 | Axios | hope they go broke and open source it then |
| 20:01.29 | brlcad | BeOS was bankrupt by M$ years ago |
| 20:01.38 | brlcad | Palm bought up Be's remaining assest |
| 20:02.08 | brlcad | Be later sued MS and settled for over 23 million |
| 20:02.30 | brlcad | yellowtab is what remains |
| 20:02.52 | brlcad | they can't open source it, because of the code's origins |
| 20:03.31 | brlcad | there are proprietary codes that are part of the core OS that make that a practical impossibility without someone getting sued or going to jail |
| 20:03.50 | Axios | thats the nasty software world |
| 20:03.53 | brlcad | part of why BeOS performed so well was those special codes |
| 20:04.02 | brlcad | yep |
| 20:04.24 | Axios | they are probadly gonna allow software patents in europe |
| 20:04.26 | brlcad | there are like a dozen forked open source projects in BeOS's name/style |
| 20:04.39 | brlcad | OpenBeOS, for example |
| 20:05.02 | Axios | and you can brake one of those, by contributing to open source, with out even knowing it |
| 20:05.16 | Axios | okay |
| 20:05.45 | Axios | so you could become a criminal without even knowing it |
| 20:05.56 | Axios | heh, just by using double clicks in your program |
| 20:06.33 | brlcad | heh |
| 20:07.09 | brlcad | there's a place for both of them, but I sure am glad to see open source win out most of the time |
| 20:07.49 | Axios | patents are the worst |
| 20:08.02 | Axios | copyright is alright |
| 20:08.12 | brlcad | copyright is a pita |
| 20:08.21 | brlcad | that was our biggest hurdle to going open source |
| 20:08.35 | brlcad | that issue alone took over a year to resolve |
| 20:08.54 | Axios | what does pita mean? |
| 20:08.57 | brlcad | well, maybe not the "biggest" .. but it was close |
| 20:09.00 | brlcad | ~pita |
| 20:09.01 | ibot | pita is probably pain in the ass |
| 20:09.11 | Axios | yeah |
| 20:10.32 | brlcad | it's even more complicated when you start considering international multi-author projects and codes developed by governments |
| 20:10.59 | brlcad | in the US, the Gov't is the single largest "entity", pretty much the single largest business |
| 20:11.17 | brlcad | yet the laws are very complicated with respect to copyright |
| 20:11.47 | brlcad | since there are no "copy rights" by default for Gov't-generated works to tax payers of that Gov't |
| 20:12.17 | brlcad | there are internationally where recognized, and there are through assignment |
| 20:12.28 | Axios | its the same in denmark |
| 20:12.56 | Axios | the goverment in denmark is a lot larger in ratio to citisents than the us |
| 20:13.07 | brlcad | all very boring that basically boils down to being a major pita when you want to open source Gov't software (where it could be encouraged in the first place) |
| 20:13.07 | Axios | we are socialliberal in denmark |
| 20:13.12 | Axios | about half/half |
| 20:13.40 | Axios | i think open source is going to be a problem for the us |
| 20:13.44 | Axios | US |
| 20:14.46 | Axios | software is the biggest export fra USA, right? |
| 20:15.03 | brlcad | BRL-CAD isn't the first per-se, but I can probably count on one hand how many there have been from the army |
| 20:15.10 | Axios | fra = from |
| 20:16.38 | Axios | but if the public pay for you to produce the software, in some sence, it have to be in a public license |
| 20:17.13 | brlcad | another big one is GRASS GIS from the core of engineers, they got around the copyright problem by just public domaining it and then schools picked it up in italy/germany that later converted it to open source |
| 20:17.28 | brlcad | sure, but only to the public that pays |
| 20:17.42 | brlcad | which is why that is tricky for international projects |
| 20:17.46 | Axios | yeah, i know what you mean |
| 20:17.53 | Axios | the internet works globally |
| 20:17.54 | brlcad | that's what brl-cad was .. anyone could get it, could get the source -- for free |
| 20:18.11 | brlcad | that doesn't make it "open source" in the OSI definition terms though |
| 20:18.39 | brlcad | and it was copyright in all countries except the U.S. |
| 20:18.49 | Axios | oh |
| 20:19.22 | brlcad | we were only able to open source it the way we did because we were able to acquire the copyright in the US as well |
| 20:19.51 | brlcad | that's in-part a weakness of the GNU licenses |
| 20:20.01 | brlcad | they are all based on copyright law |
| 20:20.20 | brlcad | if you cannot claim copyright, you cannot enforce the license terms |
| 20:20.41 | brlcad | they need to make licenses that are based on contract law (they can even be the same terms) |
| 20:22.43 | Axios | does the army take patents on some of its software? |
| 20:23.23 | brlcad | just like any other corporate entity they "can" |
| 20:23.43 | brlcad | any gov't office can |
| 20:23.57 | brlcad | there's just limited benefit to do so |
| 20:24.14 | brlcad | since the government doesn't make money that way |
| 20:24.50 | Axios | i have been in the US once |
| 20:24.55 | brlcad | same for trademarks |
| 20:25.15 | brlcad | though trademarks are useful to protect name ownership |
| 20:25.37 | brlcad | like I said, I had to fight it for 5 years :) |
| 20:25.46 | Axios | i believe |
| 20:25.47 | Axios | you |
| 20:26.25 | brlcad | i had to understand the gpl, copyright law, contract law, international implications inside out or it wouldn't have happened |
| 20:27.06 | brlcad | up to early last year, the answer was "it's impossible -- that could never happen." |
| 20:27.13 | brlcad | "BRL-CAD cannot be open sourced" |
| 20:27.17 | brlcad | and here we are |
| 20:28.14 | Axios | lol |
| 20:28.18 | Axios | nicely done |
| 20:29.22 | brlcad | can't take all of the credit, I had to get a lot of guy-in support from various levels of managemnet |
| 20:29.40 | brlcad | and the rest of the dev team itself (which was the easiest of all, of course) |
| 20:30.14 | Axios | Columbo is comming on |
| 20:30.19 | brlcad | well, time to let my dog outside |
| 20:30.42 | Axios | so now im gonna go off |
| 20:30.45 | Axios | ;) |
| 20:30.48 | brlcad | feel free to idle in here, or come back later, or whatever anywtime |
| 20:31.09 | Axios | okay |
| 20:31.21 | brlcad | i read the channel log if I'm not around too, so you can drop questions and private message me an e-mail if you want an answer and you don't idle |
| 20:50.03 | Axios | this episode of columbo is as old as brlcad ;) |
| 20:50.16 | Axios | or older, its from 78 |
| 21:11.09 | brlcad | that'd be older :) |
