| 01:07.44 | *** join/#brlcad Twingy (n=justin@pcp0011647505pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) |
| 01:41.00 | *** join/#brlcad cad399 (n=42cd6bc9@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:41.32 | *** join/#brlcad silvap (n=8d9ce1bf@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:43.05 | cad399 | all quiet on the homefront... |
| 01:43.15 | brlcad | peaceful ;) |
| 01:44.42 | pra5ad | grr |
| 01:44.55 | cad399 | everyone running 7.6 by now? |
| 01:45.09 | pra5ad | webirc chat box has dissaperear |
| 01:45.17 | pra5ad | dissapeared... |
| 01:45.35 | brlcad | pra5ad, what are you using cgi:irc for? get a real client :) |
| 01:45.46 | brlcad | cad399: of course |
| 01:45.51 | pra5ad | lazy and on laptop |
| 01:46.04 | cad399 | any problems with rtwizard? |
| 01:47.02 | brlcad | cad399: such as? |
| 01:47.43 | cad399 | hangs. popup says: loading megawidgets, then it hangs at 40% every time |
| 01:47.57 | brlcad | hmm |
| 01:48.36 | brlcad | cad399: that sounds worthy of a bug report |
| 01:48.49 | cad399 | I haven't really dug into it yet, thought maybe it was a known issue |
| 01:49.13 | brlcad | there was something about rtwizard hanging, but it's been years since that's been seen |
| 01:49.32 | brlcad | it was related to loading incrtcl as a shared lib on mac os x |
| 01:49.44 | cad399 | debian sarge here |
| 01:50.08 | brlcad | you compiled from sources? |
| 01:50.25 | cad399 | not yet, I'm new to brl-cad. |
| 01:50.47 | cad399 | so far everything else works as advertised |
| 01:51.55 | brlcad | that's really odd.. especially if you didn't compile |
| 01:52.28 | cad399 | yeah |
| 01:53.03 | cad399 | probably something I'm doing/not doing |
| 01:53.19 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/BUGS: report of rtwizard hanging at 40% on Debian (from binary distro) |
| 01:54.03 | brlcad | how are you running rtwizard? |
| 01:54.04 | cad399 | Actually, I'm impressed that it runs so well 'out of the box' |
| 01:54.21 | cad399 | as per manpage |
| 01:54.21 | brlcad | it might be presuming a file name |
| 01:56.12 | brlcad | manpage.. manpage.. what manpage? :) |
| 01:57.13 | cad399 | ahh... rtwizard dosen't HAVE a manpage. My bad. But rt does. |
| 01:57.32 | cad399 | running rtwizard cup.g mug.r |
| 01:59.21 | brlcad | ahhh |
| 01:59.36 | brlcad | hehe, I don't think rtwizard accepts the same args |
| 01:59.42 | brlcad | try just "rtwizard cup.g" |
| 02:00.16 | cad399 | same result |
| 02:00.20 | brlcad | hrmph |
| 02:00.52 | cad399 | popup says "Megawidget packed" progress bar hangs at 40% |
| 02:01.19 | cad399 | must be a tcl thing |
| 02:01.28 | brlcad | you know what.. might just be a window manager issue |
| 02:01.43 | brlcad | at 40%, it makes a new window |
| 02:01.51 | cad399 | hmmm |
| 02:01.57 | brlcad | "supposed" to minimize the progress bar |
| 02:02.03 | brlcad | and bring the new window to focus |
| 02:03.01 | brlcad | that said, I don't believe the tool has been tested in a little while, so something has evidently changed |
| 02:03.46 | cad399 | the xterm says "Error in startup script: rtarea is not defined in class ::display... |
| 02:04.39 | brlcad | yeah, I just got that here too |
| 02:04.56 | brlcad | probably something to do with the new resource locations being changed recently |
| 02:05.17 | cad399 | sounds right |
| 02:06.51 | cad399 | I'm sure it'll be sorted out LONG before I get the hang of brl-cad lol |
| 02:07.09 | brlcad | heh, probably :) |
| 02:07.31 | brlcad | presuming we don't get too sidetracked with the windows release and bug reports there .. |
| 02:07.52 | cad399 | can of worms |
| 02:08.23 | cad399 | If I build from source, will I get any addiotional documentation? |
| 02:09.10 | brlcad | not any additional user documentation |
| 02:09.18 | cad399 | wow... spellcheck is our friend |
| 02:09.23 | brlcad | there is more documentation on the website, though |
| 02:09.34 | brlcad | find a spelling mistake? |
| 02:09.40 | cad399 | just mine |
| 02:09.57 | brlcad | ah, heh |
| 02:25.28 | cad399 | so, to use rtweight I have to set up a density file? |
| 02:26.21 | brlcad | yes |
| 02:26.26 | brlcad | pretty simple format |
| 02:26.41 | cad399 | is there an example somewhere? |
| 02:26.56 | brlcad | sure, http://ftp.brlcad.org/tmp/.density |
| 02:27.29 | cad399 | thanks, sorry to be a bother. trying to rtfm |
| 02:27.49 | brlcad | no problem at all |
| 02:29.51 | cad399 | wow, that rocks. |
| 02:30.03 | cad399 | now if it would just generate G-Code... lol |
| 02:30.47 | brlcad | :) |
| 02:31.02 | brlcad | there was a couple guys working on that for a while, but they haven't been involved in a while |
| 02:32.56 | cad399 | tough nut to crack |
| 02:39.56 | cad399 | Has there been any discussion of moving away from tcl? |
| 02:40.08 | Twingy | heh |
| 02:40.21 | Twingy | you volunteering? :) |
| 02:40.59 | cad399 | Maybe... I would have to be a LOT further along the learning curve |
| 02:42.32 | cad399 | an ipython interface would be nice |
| 02:42.37 | brlcad | gtk's not portable enough as a sole frontend |
| 02:42.52 | cad399 | fltk? |
| 02:43.25 | brlcad | why?? |
| 02:43.29 | brlcad | what does it buy you? |
| 02:43.42 | cad399 | fltk, nothing. |
| 02:43.47 | Twingy | me not having to write a gui :) |
| 02:43.49 | cad399 | ipython, hmmm |
| 02:43.54 | brlcad | i meant gtk |
| 02:44.31 | cad399 | nothing |
| 02:44.31 | Twingy | I've done a bunch of fltk stuff in the past, wanna give gtk a whirl |
| 02:45.00 | brlcad | you already tied into python, why not just use that? |
| 02:45.27 | Twingy | cause I'd prefer to write some tight C/C++ gui code |
| 02:45.47 | Twingy | I'm not really using python as much as you think o.O |
| 02:46.05 | brlcad | i know, but you are using it, i.e. a dependency |
| 02:46.11 | Twingy | jup |
| 02:46.19 | brlcad | each new lib is a pile of dependency headaches |
| 02:46.22 | Twingy | hey, it was lee's idea to shove adrt into brl-cad *shrug* |
| 02:46.26 | brlcad | and gtk is one of the worst, probably the worst |
| 02:46.35 | Twingy | not on freebsd :) |
| 02:46.52 | Twingy | or loonix for that matter |
| 02:46.58 | brlcad | it even is on bsd |
| 02:47.09 | brlcad | it might be simple to just tell ports to install it |
| 02:47.15 | brlcad | but it's not a simple dependency library |
| 02:47.17 | Twingy | uh, what part about doing cd /usr/ports/wm-toolkits/gtk2 and doing make install is hard? |
| 02:47.21 | brlcad | there are tons of subdependencies |
| 02:47.28 | brlcad | and they all have their own dependencies |
| 02:47.36 | cad399 | that depends... |
| 02:47.38 | Twingy | if you installed it right then you don't have to worry about those :) |
| 02:48.52 | brlcad | adrt being in brl-cad was a good idea, there's no real need for it to be _required_ to be coupled to external components |
| 02:49.20 | Twingy | indeed |
| 02:49.22 | brlcad | it's one thing to use when available, and provide alternatives for portability |
| 02:49.39 | brlcad | it's a good tool, more useful across systems |
| 02:49.50 | Twingy | I dunno, I'm more of a fan of breaking things up into smaller packages and just chewing on the ones you're using... |
| 02:49.56 | Twingy | kinda like /usr/ports does it |
| 02:50.07 | brlcad | the more complex it's made, the more likely you're just killing it's ability to be adopted |
| 02:50.23 | Twingy | *shrug* gimp has a pretty large user base |
| 02:50.25 | brlcad | it's relatively non-trivial for anyone to use it unless they use the same environment you do |
| 02:50.41 | Twingy | there's what, about a million gimp users? |
| 02:50.43 | brlcad | you're not gimp in the least, regardless of whether you use gtk or not |
| 02:50.55 | Twingy | right, but if people can install gimp, then can install this :) |
| 02:51.02 | brlcad | and their build is much much much more forgiving than yours |
| 02:51.22 | brlcad | and they do have support hooks for other libs for some of their deps |
| 02:51.38 | Twingy | so, I'll add em into the build system *shrug* |
| 02:51.51 | brlcad | you can't add gtk |
| 02:51.54 | brlcad | it's way too big |
| 02:52.02 | brlcad | not to mention all it's dependencies |
| 02:52.13 | Twingy | so... make it it's own entity then |
| 02:52.14 | brlcad | even gdk is too big |
| 02:52.42 | Twingy | less headaches for you o.O |
| 02:52.47 | cad399 | where do I learn about adrt? |
| 02:52.49 | brlcad | that doesn't solve any problem other than your ability to play with others :P |
| 02:53.06 | brlcad | I care more that you're just crippling your own app needlessly |
| 02:53.48 | brlcad | exactly the problem, it's way more useful than that |
| 02:53.54 | brlcad | at least it could be |
| 02:54.01 | brlcad | with relatively little effort |
| 02:54.07 | Twingy | in what way? |
| 02:54.25 | brlcad | in what way what? |
| 02:54.45 | brlcad | visualization framework, high performance rendering |
| 02:54.47 | Twingy | people can get their hands on higher performance ray-tracing engines... |
| 02:55.12 | Twingy | alexis's is 10x faster, most people care about optical rendering, they should use that for such purposes |
| 02:55.22 | Twingy | cause it's geared for pretty pictures |
| 02:55.22 | brlcad | open source? I doubt it |
| 02:55.28 | Twingy | soon :) |
| 02:55.29 | brlcad | more feature-filled, perhaps, but not faster |
| 02:55.42 | Twingy | his is 10x faster |
| 02:55.52 | brlcad | yeah yeah.. "soon" .. i'll hold my breath until I see it up on sf.net |
| 02:56.12 | Twingy | might be sooner than you think o.O |
| 02:56.24 | brlcad | i mean specifically released already |
| 02:56.40 | brlcad | it could be tonight for all i know/care (which I don't much) |
| 02:56.44 | cad399 | could your renderer be ported to graphics hardware? |
| 02:58.57 | brlcad | cad399: there are several renders, some could, some have |
| 02:59.29 | cad399 | is it worth the effort? |
| 02:59.37 | brlcad | depends what you goal is |
| 02:59.48 | cad399 | speed |
| 03:00.27 | brlcad | speed for what? generating pretty pictures? generating shaded views? performing signature analyses? |
| 03:00.28 | cad399 | I don't really like tcl, |
| 03:00.34 | pra5ad | ustin |
| 03:00.37 | pra5ad | justin |
| 03:00.44 | Twingy | O.o |
| 03:00.55 | cad399 | shaded views |
| 03:01.01 | pra5ad | u plan on adding adaptive packet sizes |
| 03:01.05 | brlcad | cad399, you don't have to deal with tcl really, even the majority of the code isn't tcl |
| 03:01.17 | pra5ad | based on worker traffic |
| 03:01.19 | pra5ad | etc |
| 03:01.43 | Twingy | we got homogeneous cluster y0 |
| 03:01.44 | cad399 | what I started to say was that although I don't really like tcle, |
| 03:02.00 | cad399 | I can generate geometry pretty quiclkly |
| 03:02.08 | cad399 | trendering is slow though |
| 03:02.27 | brlcad | cad399: ahh, shaded views should be taken care of with the new intermediate viewer that's being merged in now |
| 03:02.44 | pra5ad | what can get ur efficiency curve to 100% linear |
| 03:03.22 | Twingy | 100% efficiency cruve != best performance |
| 03:03.39 | brlcad | 110%! |
| 03:03.47 | pra5ad | ? |
| 03:03.50 | Twingy | elevendy billion percent! |
| 03:03.57 | pra5ad | linear ramp for runtimes |
| 03:04.08 | pra5ad | == best performance |
| 03:04.11 | Twingy | smaller packets == 100% efficiency == more overhead == slower rendering |
| 03:04.36 | Twingy | if you have slow horribly code likes muves then smaller packets == better performance |
| 03:04.53 | pra5ad | how wrong u are |
| 03:04.56 | pra5ad | :) |
| 03:04.58 | Twingy | when the packets take like miliseconds to compute then you are network bound |
| 03:05.15 | Twingy | okay, I'm wrong |
| 03:05.39 | cad399 | what's the deal with the intermediate viewer? |
| 03:06.19 | brlcad | cad399: there was a tool that was developed by a 3rd party using mged in a pseudo plugin-mode, but that does shaded views by default |
| 03:07.08 | brlcad | that tool's starting to be merged into cvs now, probably an iteration or two before it's released initially |
| 03:07.18 | cad399 | fast enough to rotate, pan, etc? |
| 03:07.24 | brlcad | sure |
| 03:07.29 | brlcad | it's all just opengl |
| 03:07.50 | cad399 | kewl |
| 03:07.55 | brlcad | even mged can do it now in an experimental mode if you turn it on |
| 03:08.03 | cad399 | pray tell |
| 03:08.15 | brlcad | but it's a little clunky and with a couple known bugs |
| 03:08.56 | cad399 | How do I turn it on? |
| 03:09.06 | brlcad | shaded_mode 2 |
| 03:09.44 | brlcad | turn on Misc -> z buffer and Misc -> lighting |
| 03:09.55 | brlcad | then (re)display some geometry |
| 03:10.33 | brlcad | oh, and Misc -> z clipping |
| 03:10.50 | cad399 | ahha! nice |
| 03:11.51 | cad399 | yeah, a bit buggy. |
| 03:11.55 | brlcad | just don't try to display really complex geometry .. it'll bog down with some geometry |
| 03:12.46 | cad399 | so intermediate will be better? |
| 03:13.37 | brlcad | yeah |
| 03:14.07 | brlcad | then the longer term replacement under development completely fixes the problem, but that's very far out from release |
| 03:15.14 | cad399 | If it had a renderer that was fast like varicad... |
| 03:17.28 | brlcad | there is a fast renderer, two of them for different purposes |
| 03:19.19 | brlcad | rt will handle large complex csg models with all sorts of options in parallel better than most; adrt does triangles faster than just about anything else out there freely available |
| 03:20.29 | cad399 | how do I play with adrt? |
| 03:21.35 | brlcad | it's not really set up for end-users yet, but if you want to try then Twingy is your guy |
| 03:21.52 | Twingy | erm, you needs bots or blender |
| 03:22.28 | cad399 | bots as in bags of triangles? |
| 03:22.38 | cad399 | what good is blender going to me? |
| 03:22.51 | Twingy | python exporter, plus it's got lots of triangle shtuff |
| 03:23.04 | cad399 | hmmm |
| 03:23.25 | Twingy | and lots of nifty animation utils you can use to make movies |
| 03:26.49 | cad399 | Seems like VTK should be a good option for animation |
| 03:27.20 | cad399 | But I don't think they're GPL |
| 03:28.03 | cad399 | Some of the OpenCASCADE people are using VTK as a faster renderer |
| 03:28.22 | cad399 | SALOME in particular |
| 03:28.31 | brlcad | if opengl is all you want, there are several options |
| 03:30.02 | cad399 | OpenGL isn't everything, it just seems that it would speed up geometry creation |
| 03:30.15 | brlcad | sure |
| 03:30.33 | brlcad | that's why it's the foundation in the new modeler |
| 03:31.20 | cad399 | I'm probably getting ahead of myself |
| 03:31.33 | cad399 | I'm still learning how to create geometry |
| 03:31.49 | cad399 | and figuring out this whole shotline thing... |
| 03:32.51 | cad399 | interesting method of interogating a model. |
| 03:34.42 | Twingy | sean, you got any issues with fltk? |
| 03:36.30 | brlcad | Twingy: not a big fan of the api or look, but nah, it's fine |
| 03:36.35 | brlcad | nice tight library |
| 03:36.45 | Twingy | aight |
| 03:37.09 | brlcad | simple deps, we actually ship 2 of it's 4 deps |
| 03:37.32 | brlcad | and they're just recommended |
| 03:38.07 | Twingy | before writing nurbana's custom 10k line opengl gui I used fltk |
| 03:38.37 | brlcad | why'd you drop it? |
| 03:38.47 | brlcad | i mean, i probably would have too.. just curious :) |
| 03:39.04 | Twingy | cause my gui design paradigm needed to interact with the opengl display |
| 03:39.13 | Twingy | not as separate entities |
| 03:39.19 | Twingy | black A gui, block B display |
| 03:40.12 | brlcad | (good) opengl guis |
| 03:44.42 | Twingy | we can include lgpl crap right? |
| 03:44.50 | brlcad | yep |
| 03:44.58 | Twingy | hrm, I'm leaning towards paragui then |
| 03:52.08 | brlcad | paragui's got more deps I believe, a lot more .. not sure which are required though |
| 03:53.03 | Twingy | sdl image and sdl ttf |
| 03:55.41 | brlcad | according to the maintainer list I ran across, it lists libjpg, libpng, sdl and company, tiff, perl, python, readline, and ruby |
| 03:56.01 | brlcad | if perl and ruby are "optional", and there aren't any others, I wouldn't see a problem |
| 03:57.17 | brlcad | hmm. uses expat and freetype too |
| 03:57.28 | brlcad | probably okay too |
| 03:57.56 | Twingy | there's options to not depend on those |
| 03:57.59 | Twingy | in configure |
| 03:58.08 | Twingy | expat atleast |
| 03:58.11 | brlcad | cool |
| 03:58.16 | brlcad | what's required? |
| 03:59.42 | Twingy | SDL, freetype, SDL_image, zlib, option (expat, libjpg, libpng) |
| 03:59.47 | Twingy | *optional |
| 04:00.13 | Twingy | I don't see perl and ruby |
| 04:00.29 | brlcad | could just be a bindings thing, or a subdep |
| 04:00.34 | Twingy | according to the INSTALL |
| 04:00.48 | brlcad | freetype's required? |
| 04:00.58 | Twingy | yah I think so |
| 04:01.03 | brlcad | freetype2 or 1? |
| 04:01.23 | Twingy | 2.0 |
| 04:01.32 | brlcad | well that's good |
| 04:01.45 | Twingy | or higher |
| 04:02.00 | Twingy | sdl image can be turned off |
| 04:02.08 | brlcad | 1 vs 2 are completely different font engines |
| 04:02.13 | Twingy | jup |
| 04:02.25 | Twingy | 2 became grotesquely huge :| |
| 04:02.54 | brlcad | yeah :/ |
| 04:06.56 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/BUGS: odd -fast optimization/aliasing bug where rtip contents are lost in rt after returning from rt_gettrees() |
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| 05:18.10 | cad399 | Is there a tool to set up a 'working' coordinate system? |
| 05:18.56 | cad399 | like a named reference system? |
| 05:19.48 | cad399 | And then work within that reference frame? |
| 05:30.16 | *** join/#brlcad thumPer1052 (n=edward@host-66-205-107-201.classicnet.net) |
| 15:39.49 | *** join/#brlcad cad422 (n=44d75bcf@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:39.54 | cad422 | hey |
| 15:40.04 | cad422 | anyone know where the installation goes to in OSX? |
| 15:40.19 | cad422 | it's not showing up in applications |
| 15:42.38 | brlcad | it goes to /usr/brlcad |
| 15:43.00 | brlcad | *presently* you have to run X11 and set your PATH on OS X for the time being |
| 15:43.12 | brlcad | it'll be a full double-clickable app in the very near future |
| 15:43.52 | cad422 | thanks so much, I see it there |
| 15:44.06 | cad422 | the install gave the impression that it was a clickable item :) |
| 15:44.19 | cad422 | is there a tutorial? |
| 15:54.06 | brlcad | there are |
| 15:54.32 | brlcad | back to your first question, though, you know how to set your PATH, I presume? |
| 15:54.49 | brlcad | the tutorials are on the website under the Documents section at http://brlcad.org |
| 19:53.26 | *** join/#brlcad thumPer1052 (n=edward@host-66-205-107-201.classicnet.net) |
| 20:33.00 | brlcad | howdy thumPer1052 |