| 00:00.12 | kanzure | Hm. So I have a rectangle with a rectangle going through it, I take the intersection and that's a region. I copy the region, but then I have to individually move the two primitives to get the copied region to the location that I desire. Is there a simpler way to move a region and everything in it? |
| 00:00.55 | kanzure | s/rectangle/prism/ |
| 00:01.37 | kanzure | g |
| 00:17.26 | brlcad | blinks |
| 00:18.45 | brlcad | sporty__: wth are you talking about? if you're bored -- I'm sure I could find some feature requests that need to be implemented for you |
| 00:26.29 | brlcad | kanzure: yes, you can apply a matrix edit to the copied region |
| 00:26.45 | brlcad | oed / copied_region/path/to/primitive |
| 00:26.49 | brlcad | tra 100 0 0 |
| 00:26.50 | brlcad | accept |
| 00:27.12 | kanzure | can I do oed / copied_region \n tra x y z ? |
| 00:28.13 | brlcad | that is what copied_region/path/to/primitive does .. it moves "copied_region" .. not the primitive |
| 00:28.48 | brlcad | the reason you have to specify the path all the way down to a primitive is merely because of an implementation detail -- it needs a keypoint |
| 00:29.35 | brlcad | oed works with a left-hand and right-hand path .. moving the thing on the right |
| 00:29.46 | kanzure | Thanks. |
| 00:31.18 | brlcad | so if you have an object "top" that contains "a" and "b" primitives, you could "oed / top/a" or "oed / top/b" to use a or b as a keypoint on moving top; or "oed /top a" and "oed /top b" to move the specific instance of a or b respectively that top references |
| 00:31.55 | brlcad | there's a nice tutorial on OED on the website, http://brlcad.org/w/images/3/36/Object_Editing_-_the_oed_Command.pdf |
| 01:02.21 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@bas2-sudbury98-1177593586.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 01:02.46 | sporty__ | brlcad: today, i'm ending up another project. only brl-cad is left from all i've intented |
| 01:03.45 | IriX64 | it can now be said that wherever you have a ${TK} token in makefile.am, you need an ${X_LIBS} token and in X_LIBS include -lXss and -lXft, tk needs those man, and now mged and the rest build fine. |
| 01:09.38 | *** join/#brlcad mafm_ (n=mafm@172.Red-83-45-253.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 01:23.55 | PrezKennedy | kanzure, http://photos.mkweb.us/v/personal/DSCF1686.JPG.html |
| 01:40.14 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@bas2-sudbury98-1177593586.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 01:41.39 | IriX64 | http://rafb.net/p/3mDWZk87.html <-solver-test.exe and vm-test.exe need this little ditty fixed |
| 01:41.47 | IriX64 | in libpc |
| 01:45.36 | IriX64 | http://rafb.net/p/IqrVTk15.html <--pcVariable, on my system this is system declared, get multiple definitions if i dont comment it out |
| 01:46.06 | IriX64 | and now solver-test and vm-test build joy :) |
| 02:02.36 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=WarLock@bas2-sudbury98-1177593586.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 02:03.14 | IriX64 | http://www3.sympatico.ca/mario.dulisse2/brlcad.png <--- on vista yet :) |
| 02:09.52 | IriX64 | use the pictures if you like, brl-cad has afforded me many happy moments :) |
| 02:22.11 | sporty__ | IriX64: what is on that picture? |
| 02:22.19 | IriX64 | havoc |
| 02:22.48 | IriX64 | err havoc.g :) |
| 02:22.53 | sporty__ | IriX64: what is its size and main colours? What resolution? |
| 02:23.02 | IriX64 | who cares |
| 02:23.21 | sporty__ | IriX64: i want to use it as a wallpaper |
| 02:23.36 | sporty__ | IriX64: gimme |
| 02:23.42 | IriX64 | download it |
| 02:23.56 | sporty__ | IriX64: what is its size then? |
| 02:24.20 | IriX64 | you're serious, you have to know its size? |
| 02:24.38 | sporty__ | IriX64: yes, i pay 0.10-0.30 per mb |
| 02:24.41 | IriX64 | my screen res is 1650x1040 |
| 02:25.03 | IriX64 | native res |
| 02:25.16 | sporty__ | sweet and :( - guess it's too big for a day, what size in kb ? |
| 02:25.29 | IriX64 | oh that just a sec... |
| 02:25.58 | sporty__ | IriX64: well, i can imagine, what colors then (light / grey) |
| 02:26.23 | IriX64 | 147,780 bytes |
| 02:26.29 | sporty__ | dark? or a light one? Why not "love" or "happiness" ?? |
| 02:26.34 | IriX64 | its full color |
| 02:27.30 | sporty__ | omg! no, i've used to spent less kb a day. Buy me an internet - and i will see links. Would you? |
| 02:27.53 | *** join/#brlcad Ralith (n=ralith@216.162.199.202) |
| 02:31.36 | sporty__ | IriX64: o.15 usd / meg - to be exact. i would load e.g. "happines" - at least a tiny bit! :-] |
| 02:31.51 | sporty__ | :-[ |
| 02:32.08 | IriX64 | firewall that cant be messed with here sport :) |
| 02:32.29 | sporty__ | what do you mean? |
| 02:32.46 | IriX64 | im behind a firewall |
| 02:32.54 | IriX64 | cant dcc to you |
| 02:33.27 | sporty__ | IriX64: dcc ?? what is it? |
| 02:34.41 | sporty__ | IriX64: it's morning in here - and i'm working. You can imagine e.g. gilian underson (even in sexy poses) - and sleep with good thoughts on your mind. |
| 02:36.35 | sporty__ | IriX64: this is usually a whole kingdom - ladies |
| 02:36.40 | sporty__ | and computers are wrong :( |
| 02:41.35 | *** part/#brlcad sporty__ (n=sporty_@217.118.79.43) |
| 03:03.03 | *** join/#brlcad Axman6 (n=Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) |
| 03:56.03 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedyJR (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) |
| 04:20.03 | starseeker | idly wonders about designing a .gxml or .gml file format for non-tcl based ascii output |
| 04:20.30 | starseeker | then smacks himself for thinking of yet another way to keep his "primary" language xml |
| 04:44.25 | *** join/#brlcad pacman87 (n=Timothy@pool-71-170-39-105.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 05:02.52 | Ralith | starseeker: if you added xml I would smack you |
| 05:06.13 | starseeker | Ralith: too late then - lots of docbook in there already |
| 05:06.35 | Ralith | that's a reasonable exception :P |
| 05:06.58 | Ralith | docs in xml is different than data in xml |
| 05:07.05 | starseeker | xml actually is a reasonable storage format if you aren't worried about being human readable, IMHO |
| 05:07.14 | starseeker | better to compress it |
| 05:07.14 | louipc | not |
| 05:07.29 | starseeker | the ubiquity of parsing tools is its own advantage |
| 05:07.35 | Ralith | starseeker: if you aren't worried about being human readable, use a binary format. |
| 05:07.42 | louipc | xml is uh kind of bloated isn't it? |
| 05:07.43 | Ralith | I mean, come on. |
| 05:07.51 | louipc | Ralith++ |
| 05:08.16 | Ralith | you can even make it safe to transmit by base64ing it |
| 05:08.50 | starseeker | Oh, it's bloated sure. |
| 05:08.54 | louipc | xml is nice as web markup |
| 05:09.01 | Ralith | and horribly painful to hand edit |
| 05:09.08 | louipc | or document markup perhaps |
| 05:09.38 | louipc | I am horrified to see it proliferate elsewhere :/ |
| 05:10.44 | starseeker | It's kind of one of those cases where universal tool support and "some standard is still better than no standard, however bloated" won out |
| 05:10.53 | Ralith | but we're brl-cad ffs |
| 05:11.03 | Ralith | make our own standards :P |
| 05:11.08 | starseeker | Heh |
| 05:11.21 | starseeker | Oh, the binary .g is clearly the winner |
| 05:11.31 | Ralith | 'xactly |
| 05:11.39 | starseeker | But when it comes to g2asc and asc2g, I can't stand the asc format |
| 05:12.02 | starseeker | too tied to tcl |
| 05:12.10 | louipc | someone has to innovate outside of standards |
| 05:12.13 | Ralith | hm. |
| 05:12.16 | starseeker | if we're going to have an ascii text representation, it should be tool agnostic |
| 05:12.20 | Ralith | that's a good point |
| 05:12.21 | louipc | standards are sometimes innovation killers |
| 05:12.28 | Ralith | louipc: only when abused |
| 05:12.29 | starseeker | and since we all agree .g is better anyway |
| 05:12.50 | starseeker | one thing that is for sure about xml is that it's tool/language agnostic |
| 05:13.01 | Ralith | still, surely there's some other standard that would work |
| 05:13.03 | Ralith | I mean hell |
| 05:13.05 | Ralith | JSON would do the trick |
| 05:13.16 | louipc | yaml! |
| 05:13.24 | Ralith | yaml is interesting but not a standard afaik |
| 05:13.34 | Ralith | it is agnostic though! |
| 05:14.10 | starseeker | if there is to be an ASCII representation at all, my feeling is that the only advantage is that it is (or should be) potentially readable (insofar as possible) by anything |
| 05:15.08 | louipc | why is there an ascii format anyways? |
| 05:15.25 | starseeker | I think it dates back to before the binary format was platform independent |
| 05:16.02 | louipc | oh |
| 05:16.07 | starseeker | Probably its sole remaining advantages are 1) it allows direct editing of the database by a modeler outside of any interface |
| 05:16.48 | starseeker | 2) it is archival in the sense that the geometric information can be (theoretically) recovered with virtually no knowledge of or support from any tool |
| 05:17.08 | brlcad | there are two versions of the ascii format, v4 and v5 -- v4 was specifically because the binary format was not platform independent |
| 05:17.59 | brlcad | the current v5 format is essentially an mged/tcl transcript equivalent to serialized command-line recreation of geometry |
| 05:19.10 | brlcad | v5 ascii is provided partly for backwards-compatibility/familiarity but more as a means to serialize the output to a readable form for debugging/inspection and external scripting purposes |
| 05:20.44 | brlcad | having an xml output format has come up before (g-xml exporter, xml-g importer), but it hasn't really solved any problem to date not already accounted for by another capability |
| 05:21.20 | brlcad | being xml doesn't give you a format standard, it just takes care of basic lexing -- anyone using your file still have to parse and comprehend the data/format |
| 05:21.35 | starseeker | sure |
| 05:22.30 | Ralith | but if well implemented, it could be easy to intuit the format sufficiently to reconstruct geometry |
| 05:22.46 | brlcad | that can be said of any format :) |
| 05:22.54 | Ralith | not without docs available |
| 05:23.43 | Ralith | if you gave someone a .g and said "this contains geometry," they probably wouldn't have a very easy time deciphering it. |
| 05:23.44 | brlcad | depends on the format, we've reverse-engineered several a format just by looking at the contents |
| 05:23.54 | Ralith | sure, but was it ever straightforward? |
| 05:24.18 | starseeker | winces in anticipation of a discussion of the meaning of "straightforward" |
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| 05:24.45 | brlcad | as far as binary formats go, .g's are very easy to decipher -- and there is a spec for it |
| 05:24.57 | starseeker | sort of |
| 05:24.59 | brlcad | though the intent isn't for everyone to write parsers, that's what a lib is for |
| 05:25.44 | brlcad | it's probably 95-99%% accurate |
| 05:25.55 | brlcad | most of the ways its out of date are just due to age/maintenance |
| 05:26.24 | Ralith | brlcad: okay, but if all you have is a file, and you get to choose between an intentionally human-readable file and an intentionally computer-readable file, which would you select? :P |
| 05:26.32 | brlcad | docs have a maintenance burden just like code, just hasn't been a need to keep it up to date as often -- http://brlcad.sourceforge.net/newdb/newdb.html |
| 05:26.53 | Ralith | the former could probably be decoded in a fraction of the time of the latter, no matter how elegant the encoding. |
| 05:27.00 | starseeker | brlcad: Ah, is that the latest version? |
| 05:27.35 | brlcad | Ralith: that entirely depends on the situation, and is a bit of a loaded question |
| 05:27.48 | brlcad | because we already have/provide more than just a file |
| 05:28.16 | Ralith | well, I don't see it ever actually becoming a real world issue |
| 05:28.16 | Ralith | so w/e |
| 05:28.18 | brlcad | there's a lib, there's manpage docs, there's the spec, there's the entire source |
| 05:28.53 | starseeker | apologizes for digging up the worms... |
| 05:29.24 | brlcad | Ralith: hrm, you're saying the computer-readable file would be decoded in a fraction of the time or the intentionally human-readable file? |
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| 05:30.15 | brlcad | our experience shows the the computer-readable variant (i.e., our .g) to be *massively* higher-performance to parse than an encoded human-readable format |
| 05:30.36 | Ralith | brlcad: the latter |
| 05:30.40 | brlcad | our .g is nearly a direct serialization of objects as they are in memory |
| 05:30.49 | Ralith | I think you're missing my context |
| 05:31.09 | brlcad | okay, yeah -- that's what I'm saying too :) |
| 05:31.10 | Ralith | I'm talking about a theoretical situation where one has a file and nothing else. No BRL-CAD, no docs. |
| 05:31.14 | louipc | the brlcad format is open source, so it's not an issue :P |
| 05:31.18 | brlcad | you'd just said "the former" .. which was human-readable |
| 05:31.29 | Ralith | brlcad: which is what I just said again. |
| 05:31.46 | Ralith | for someon who has no docs or brl-cad tools, a human-readable format is easier to decode. |
| 05:31.53 | Ralith | as starseeker said, it is thus a more ideal archival format. |
| 05:32.07 | brlcad | ah, where by decode, you effectively mean reverse-engineer |
| 05:32.17 | Ralith | yes |
| 05:32.25 | brlcad | sure -- decoding binary proprietary formats sucks |
| 05:32.30 | Ralith | exactly! |
| 05:32.38 | brlcad | just not relevant to us :) |
| 05:32.47 | brlcad | like louipc said ;) |
| 05:32.53 | Ralith | assuming BRL-CAD tools will always be available to those who want them. |
| 05:32.54 | Ralith | which is reasonable. |
| 05:33.03 | Ralith | it's not like we're making a time capsule here |
| 05:33.22 | starseeker | looks over newdb.html |
| 05:33.57 | louipc | I would put the physical object in the time capsule and let them decode it |
| 05:33.58 | louipc | ;) |
| 05:34.14 | starseeker | Nah, cad model's better - cars rust |
| 05:34.32 | starseeker | http://www.allpar.com/history/auto-shows/time-capsule.html |
| 05:34.48 | brlcad | starseeker: fyi, with a bit of polish and clean-up, the v5 spec could actually probably be made an official mil, ansi, or iso spec |
| 05:34.56 | louipc | lol! |
| 05:35.02 | starseeker | brlcad: Cool! |
| 05:35.05 | brlcad | considered pushing it through several times, but then .. I always get back to "what problem are we solving" |
| 05:35.19 | louipc | starseeker: yeah I guess that is fail |
| 05:35.31 | brlcad | those three being in increasing levels of difficulty |
| 05:35.53 | starseeker | brlcad: Maybe I can update it off the clock |
| 05:35.57 | Ralith | it *would* be pretty cool to have it be a formal standard |
| 05:36.12 | starseeker | likes well done documents that don't solve practical problems :-P |
| 05:36.17 | Ralith | make it easy to advocate for use in other projects too |
| 05:36.44 | starseeker | is itching to docbook this sucker... |
| 05:37.04 | brlcad | Ralith: consider the tradeoff -- if you know it'll take up probably more than a man-year of effort |
| 05:37.13 | brlcad | pushing a spec through takes a *lot* of time |
| 05:37.18 | brlcad | and not just one person's |
| 05:37.23 | starseeker | louipc: I've got to remember to save links on that car - it's a perfect object lesson about archiving :-) |
| 05:37.50 | brlcad | would you rather have a spec and the same modeling interface, or no spec and a year's worth of progress towards a better interface.. ;) |
| 05:38.31 | brlcad | if you're going to work on something that long-term, have to weigh it against the other long-term priorities it'll eat away at |
| 05:38.32 | louipc | better interface |
| 05:38.51 | Ralith | brlcad: sure, I don't think it's actually worth putting the effort in |
| 05:38.55 | Ralith | but it *would* be pretty neat! |
| 05:39.33 | brlcad | even if flawlessly pushed through, a mil interface would probably take two years of calendar time, an ansi would probably take two to four, iso is mostly political :) |
| 05:39.52 | brlcad | absolutely, that's why I think about it too from time to time .. would be very cool :) |
| 05:39.53 | Ralith | I'd imagine it would be hard to politicise something for which there's little competition |
| 05:39.58 | brlcad | just hard to justify |
| 05:40.22 | starseeker | Ralith: Pro/E, SolidWorks, Unigraphics... |
| 05:40.29 | brlcad | oh, iso would be hard politically mostly because of STEP |
| 05:41.21 | Ralith | starseeker: target different audiences, and probably wouldn't care very much. |
| 05:41.26 | Ralith | (so I speculate) |
| 05:41.31 | brlcad | nobody likes affirming standards that directly compete |
| 05:42.29 | brlcad | STEP is basically the union of all CAD formats, even including subsections for just about every little quirk we support too |
| 05:43.21 | starseeker | Ralith: particularly when they serve to make free ($ and code) competitors more "valid" in the eyes of the world |
| 05:43.34 | Ralith | okay |
| 05:43.50 | Ralith | I was going to argue that they probably wouldn't care enough to dedicate the effort to fight it |
| 05:44.04 | Ralith | but then I realized that that was silly because we don't care enough to dedicate the effort to advocate it |
| 05:44.07 | brlcad | mil would be pretty appropriate since we could pretty easily sell it as being specific to the V/L domain |
| 05:44.21 | brlcad | but mil isn't quite as visible |
| 05:44.51 | starseeker | Ralith: I refer you to what Microsoft has done to the open office suite standard efforts |
| 05:45.16 | Ralith | starseeker: open office competes directly with word, and microsoft is known for its aggression :P |
| 05:45.22 | louipc | mil started arpanet, look how big that got ;) |
| 05:45.45 | starseeker | Ralith: If BRL-CAD continues to acquire features and open source community support, there are virtually no limits to its long term potential |
| 05:45.50 | Ralith | yep! |
| 05:46.01 | Ralith | its comptetitors probably don't realize that, though |
| 05:47.36 | starseeker | looks at clock and kicks in sanity - gotta get in there earlier tomorrow to finish scanning |
| 05:47.44 | starseeker | later all! |
| 05:47.51 | louipc | bye |
| 05:48.11 | brlcad | or just aren't worried yet, we have a few manyears of usability effort to get on their radar |
| 06:19.06 | yukonbob | hello, cadheads |
| 06:23.41 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33371 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: bob activated wizards in archer, added a new wizard for creating tires using cliff's tire proc-db |
| 06:24.16 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33372 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: reword -- bob *activated* wizards in archer, added a new wizard for creating tires using cliff's tire proc-db |
| 06:25.39 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33373 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: also similarly related, bob activated the primitive creation buttons in archer so users can create some of the supported primitives pretty easily |
| 06:30.43 | brlcad | howdy yukonbob |
| 06:38.56 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33374 10/brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/swidgets/scripts/selectlists.itk: |
| 06:38.56 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: partial revert of the mods made during 33283 where bob commited a new revision |
| 06:38.56 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: of selectlists.itk with changes from doug howard, but inadvertently clobbered |
| 06:38.56 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: basic changes that had occurred since for header/copyright updates and ws/indent |
| 06:38.57 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: style consistency cleanup |
| 06:42.07 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33375 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: bob applied a few tweaks (borderwidth, relief, selectmode, stickyness) to the layout of selection lists for doug howard. this should impact archer's layout. |
| 08:29.47 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=madant@117.196.136.85) |
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| 10:57.05 | mafm | hi |
| 11:30.16 | AFK-claymore | howdy mafm! |
| 11:30.51 | mafm | hey claymore :) |
| 11:32.00 | AFK-claymore | whats new? |
| 11:36.02 | mafm | I'm at my parent's home (not basement, yet :) ) |
| 11:36.31 | mafm | I've been fighting with the lab but finally I "won" |
| 11:37.02 | claymore | excellent, so you have the rest of the month off (paid?) |
| 11:37.33 | mafm | up to jan 12th :) |
| 11:37.45 | claymore | dead sexy. |
| 11:38.08 | mafm | they're part of my holidays, so... :) |
| 11:38.20 | mafm | I don't receive compensations for the 2+ years worked, but since they didn't agree in cancelling the contract I woulnd't have that anyway |
| 11:43.47 | claymore | :/ |
| 11:43.54 | claymore | well, at least you are getting something. |
| 11:44.03 | claymore | any idea whats next on the horizon? |
| 11:44.22 | mafm | yep, time to work in my degree's final project \o/ |
| 11:44.53 | mafm | with friends of a free sw company, working with mobile stuff (maemo, gnome mobile, etc) |
| 11:45.04 | mafm | or e-learning projects in the univ |
| 11:45.14 | mafm | maybe the former for a while and then the later, still undecided |
| 11:45.47 | mafm | the univ is better for a while to finish my project |
| 11:47.33 | mafm | and it's a bit less demanding so I could devote more time to other projects (like g3d) |
| 11:48.01 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@84-72-91-240.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 11:51.10 | mafm | hi clock_ |
| 11:51.15 | mafm | anything new around here? |
| 11:57.02 | clock_ | mafm: hi |
| 12:05.24 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=madant@117.196.130.127) |
| 13:23.32 | ``Erik | claymore, are you in? |
| 13:24.53 | *** join/#brlcad Axman6 (n=Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) |
| 13:25.09 | claymore | yuppers |
| 13:25.30 | ``Erik | I can't get a hold off boss or receptionist, I'm not making it in today |
| 13:26.16 | ``Erik | stomach is bugging me, couldn't eat lunch yesterday, almost had to pull over to puke on the drive home, cooked and promptly ignored dinner ... could you pass word for me? |
| 13:27.04 | claymore | sure thing.... not too many others are in also. |
| 13:27.34 | ``Erik | heh, quite a few people were coughing and not feeling well yesterday |
| 13:28.09 | ``Erik | I no one's answering the phone and I just don't wanna get gigged for not calling to notify :) |
| 13:29.15 | ``Erik | s/^I // |
| 13:32.51 | claymore | Okay. Ed just rolled in and stands informed. |
| 13:32.59 | ``Erik | ok, thanks |
| 13:33.22 | ``Erik | curled over at the stoplight in churchville fighting puke down was NOT a good thing :( |
| 13:33.35 | claymore | its funny that someone said 'Rain is coming tomarrow' and that there is a storm blowing in. I didn't even think of the other meaning till Rain popped her head in my office and asked were everyone was :) |
| 13:33.49 | ``Erik | ain't no way I'm vomiting in that car, and there was no way I could get to the side of the road |
| 13:33.54 | claymore | lol |
| 13:34.06 | ``Erik | ah, how's she doing? she's down in west virginia for school, right? |
| 13:34.29 | claymore | you'd be *very* intrigued to know that Top Gear pitted an M3 vs a Toyota Prius in a gas milage test :) |
| 13:34.48 | ``Erik | heh, wow, m3 runs ~21-22, prius should be getting low 40's |
| 13:34.50 | claymore | the Prius had to run 'full bore' round a track while the M3 Paced it from behind, not allowed to pass. |
| 13:34.57 | ``Erik | hahaha |
| 13:35.03 | ``Erik | so stuck in second |
| 13:35.04 | ``Erik | O:-) |
| 13:35.18 | archivist | I saw that one prius was useless |
| 13:35.18 | claymore | Since the Prius was at 100%, it was operating highly ineffeiciently and got 18 mpg. |
| 13:35.26 | ``Erik | wow |
| 13:35.35 | ``Erik | m3 will hit 80 in second, 120 in third |
| 13:35.51 | claymore | and the M3 was barely hitting 15%, so it got 19 mpg. |
| 13:35.53 | claymore | :) |
| 13:36.01 | ``Erik | and have enough low end that I can sit into 6th at 35 |
| 13:36.01 | claymore | m3 is more fuel effiecient at 45mph |
| 13:36.14 | claymore | archivist: That was was pretty funny eh? :) |
| 13:36.19 | archivist | yup |
| 13:36.39 | archivist | they are evil on some of their tests |
| 13:36.40 | ``Erik | of course, I have fits of stupid where I like to toe off, then go into second and open it up |
| 13:36.44 | ``Erik | :) |
| 13:37.10 | claymore | of course :) |
| 13:37.24 | archivist | I have seen the latest tests more fun to come :) |
| 13:37.45 | ``Erik | I saw a new m3 yesterday, I don't like the shape, but it was worth notice |
| 13:37.45 | claymore | bah, all i get is second hand Top Gear... hard to find on the stations over here :/ |
| 13:38.00 | ``Erik | bbc plays 'em often, comcrap carries it on 114 or something |
| 13:38.08 | ``Erik | if you have the digital package |
| 13:38.17 | claymore | its the timing of the shows that gets me. |
| 13:38.35 | claymore | and their 'onDemand' offerings are slim and change too often. |
| 13:38.41 | ``Erik | I'm awfully tempted to be a tivo or something up that alley |
| 13:38.44 | ``Erik | buy |
| 13:38.58 | ``Erik | mebbe rig a mythtv set |
| 13:38.58 | archivist | hehe live in England, get it on Sunday evening first showing |
| 13:39.21 | ``Erik | hey, archivist, when does the new robin hood start up again? |
| 13:39.22 | claymore | Top Gear is good, but not *that* good ;) |
| 13:39.36 | ``Erik | I enjoyed that show |
| 13:39.49 | archivist | no idea ``Erik not something I bother watching |
| 13:40.18 | ``Erik | ah, they had an awfully decent take on it, it wasn't completely glorified, but it was still kid lgoves stuff |
| 13:40.59 | ``Erik | personally, I'm apt to look for a darker meaner version, but *shrug* that's just me :) this went towards that direction |
| 13:41.14 | ``Erik | I liked 'firefly' a lot, that one had a lot of grim aspects, I think |
| 13:41.45 | ``Erik | heh, and I have voltaires candide on my bookshelf. W00t. |
| 13:42.35 | ``Erik | it is... the best of all possible worlds |
| 13:44.38 | claymore | been reading a *lot* of books recently.... have been re-evaluating my opinions on a bunch of books. |
| 13:44.48 | ``Erik | oh? |
| 13:45.15 | ``Erik | I've mostly been re-reading niven lately, though I have an urge to pull up like my cervantes and stuff |
| 13:45.28 | claymore | Anne McCaffery's Pern series is not as good as I thought it was ('cept the first one .. still amazing) |
| 13:45.30 | ``Erik | I mean, uh, I'm illiterate |
| 13:45.46 | ``Erik | I never got into pern, my dad was a huge fan, but I just couldn't groove to it |
| 13:46.03 | ``Erik | tell ya what, though, robert aspirin, effin' brilliant, the myth series, awesome |
| 13:46.17 | claymore | Tolkien has quite a few inconsistancies and so does C.S. Lewis. :/ |
| 13:46.22 | ``Erik | on par with doug adams, but without the geek worship |
| 13:46.54 | ``Erik | I think my next big endeavor is going to be partchets discworld series |
| 13:47.02 | claymore | Douglas Adams.... I found midly amusing... but not "simply amazing" as many I have spoke to referred to it. |
| 13:47.15 | ``Erik | his stuff was fun, not serious |
| 13:47.35 | ``Erik | the latest movie wasn't that bad |
| 13:47.45 | ``Erik | just don't expect too much :D it's fun camp shit |
| 13:47.54 | claymore | Pratchetts Discworld stuff is pretty good. Its definetly up my alley, humorwise. |
| 13:48.19 | ``Erik | heh, "make a man a fire, eh's warm for the night, set a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life" O.o |
| 13:48.20 | ``Erik | grim |
| 13:48.32 | claymore | Been on the fence about that movie... dunno yet. |
| 13:48.53 | claymore | grim? Nah, hilarious! Makes for a funny visual. |
| 13:49.10 | ``Erik | I don't think the movie did any serious injustice to the books... not anywhere close to other adaptations |
| 13:50.02 | ``Erik | heh, slashdot just had an article about torture in video games, I felt an urge to email an 'amen, brother' :/ |
| 13:50.06 | claymore | I think they are making movies out of a select few of Pratchetts works. |
| 13:50.41 | ``Erik | partchet and niven both comment publically about people wanting to make movies of their seminal works |
| 13:50.51 | ``Erik | pratchet, even |
| 13:51.01 | ``Erik | plus another t |
| 13:51.25 | claymore | I have seen Hog Father, and that was *okay*, but no where near as funny as Thud (which I wish they would make a movie out of) |
| 13:51.42 | ``Erik | I'd love to see a ringworld movie, I think the tech is just getting there, but the audience may not appreciate it all... I d'no pratchetts work, so I can't comment on that |
| 13:52.08 | claymore | I have Thud on audiobook CD and you can borrow it anytime. |
| 13:52.31 | ``Erik | hrm, might be worth shoving the disc loader back in my car :) |
| 13:53.10 | ``Erik | if you haven't checked out aspirins books, do it... it's good |
| 13:53.33 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14CDEC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:53.43 | ``Erik | he did two big chains, the 'myth' series which is fantasy, and somethin's mercenaryies, which is very scifi tech |
| 13:54.06 | ``Erik | I intend to purchase his full set |
| 13:54.48 | ``Erik | it's goofy, but it's fun :) |
| 13:54.59 | clock_ | is also goofy |
| 13:55.27 | ``Erik | I think if you appreciate monty python, you'll get a kick out of aspirins stuff |
| 13:55.33 | ``Erik | hi, karel :) |
| 13:55.54 | clock_ | ``Erik: hi :) |
| 13:55.57 | claymore | Well then, I will check it out sometime. Need to see if its on Audiobook :) |
| 13:57.53 | claymore | ``Erik: Whats the best way you have found to quickyl serialize simple structs in C? memcpy? |
| 13:57.56 | ``Erik | CLOCK! I want better animation shit, I started a procdb for metaball animation, tell me what needs to be awesome, or give me patches of awesome :D |
| 13:58.08 | ``Erik | um, look up "swizzle", claymore |
| 13:58.39 | clock_ | what is metaball? |
| 13:58.59 | ``Erik | gloppy surface things |
| 13:59.17 | ``Erik | http://www.petrileskinen.fi/Actionscript/MetaballPreview.jpg |
| 14:00.21 | ``Erik | claymore: if pointers are involved, it gets complex fast. if it's a very linear struct, you can just dump it (though doing ntohl/htonl stuff is better) |
| 14:00.55 | ``Erik | if it goes into a .g, it NEEDS to be endian agnostic. |
| 14:01.05 | claymore | right, I was looking at the same concepts earlier... didn't know it had such a flamboyant name though :) |
| 14:01.40 | ``Erik | that's why ya need high tech folk like me, who are more on the ivory tower side than anyhting else :D |
| 14:01.56 | claymore | ``Erik: endian agnostic... isnt any given bit arrayyy either big or little? or is there some other endian i don't know about? |
| 14:02.10 | ``Erik | ther'es middle endian that hasn't been used in 3 decades |
| 14:02.25 | ``Erik | and who knows what the future will bring |
| 14:02.42 | clock_ | ``Erik: do you mean PDP endian? |
| 14:02.45 | ``Erik | yeah |
| 14:02.47 | clock_ | 1 3 2 4 or how it was? |
| 14:02.57 | ``Erik | 18b, strip teh front and back for the core |
| 14:03.04 | clock_ | lol |
| 14:03.10 | clock_ | and 9 bit char |
| 14:03.40 | ``Erik | but you don't know what the future will bring |
| 14:03.50 | ``Erik | so don't plan around your assumpetions, be versatile |
| 14:04.56 | claymore | ``Erik: yeah, trying that. Which is why I am looking at a stream solution. |
| 14:05.13 | ``Erik | java's serialize does that for you, it's nice |
| 14:05.22 | ``Erik | c/c++ makes you do that by hand |
| 14:05.44 | claymore | I know :) I found a C++ implementation of java.io residing in Beecrypt (SF project) |
| 14:05.51 | clock_ | A portable program should run also on analog computers |
| 14:06.02 | ``Erik | in the C world, we generally talk bits and bytes, it's obscenely manual... c++ might try to hide that, but it may be a red herring |
| 14:06.21 | clock_ | Does BRL-CAD run on analog computers? |
| 14:06.29 | ``Erik | doubt it |
| 14:06.48 | clock_ | Why is it platform-specific then? |
| 14:06.49 | ``Erik | we demand posix plus some |
| 14:08.00 | ``Erik | if you whine about a single amchine that just plain doesn't matter, y'know, go fuck off, ... ;0 |
| 14:08.02 | ``Erik | :) |
| 14:08.19 | ``Erik | I have other crap to deal with |
| 14:08.29 | ``Erik | know what I mean, vern? |
| 14:08.32 | claymore | I dunt think analog computers have too much of a use nowadays. Some, but very little in comparision :/ |
| 14:08.42 | clock_ | ``Erik: now you are quoting Theo de Raadt aren't you?" |
| 14:08.57 | clock_ | everyone has one analog computer in his head. I think they matter a lot |
| 14:09.07 | claymore | heh. |
| 14:09.11 | ``Erik | did theo say that? I thought I was quoting ernest from the 80's |
| 14:09.29 | clock_ | It sounds so rude that it fits Theo's anankastic personality |
| 14:09.38 | ``Erik | yes, theo is a dick |
| 14:09.57 | clock_ | I think if Theo went to a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist would just jump out of the window without a word. |
| 14:10.01 | ``Erik | I'm willing to be a dick, not quite as far as theo, but *shrug* |
| 14:10.42 | ``Erik | it may be rude, but seriously, where is the analog computer install base? are the interested in BRL-CAD? |
| 14:11.52 | clock_ | Is analog and digitall the only types of computer that exist? Or is there still something else? |
| 14:12.24 | ``Erik | tell me where BRL-CAD doesn't work. |
| 14:12.43 | clock_ | I meant it as a theoretical excursion :) |
| 14:12.58 | clock_ | ``Erik: actually yes! On ZX Spectrum! |
| 14:13.01 | ``Erik | yeah, well, this isn't a theorical issue, this is an engineering issue |
| 14:13.15 | ``Erik | heh, no one uses z80 anymore |
| 14:13.22 | clock_ | I find analogue computers somehow elegant and interesting |
| 14:13.40 | ``Erik | the russian trinary computer was interesting, but it failed |
| 14:13.56 | archivist | I have a Z80 in circuit emulator |
| 14:14.21 | ``Erik | the i386 sucks goat balls, but that's what we have, unfortunately |
| 14:14.30 | claymore | they're great for electrical and mechanical system calibration and testing... but outside of that...*shrugs* |
| 14:14.42 | ``Erik | the mac I'm using right now uses this crap chip |
| 14:15.02 | clock_ | The Zilog Z80 has long been a popular microprocessor in embedded systems and microcontroller cores, where it remains in widespread use today. |
| 14:15.48 | ``Erik | I loved the g4 and g5.. even the g3... but *shrug* my mac uses an x86, every winderz box uses an x86, ibm is dropping their high performance ppc for winderz chips |
| 14:16.09 | clock_ | but actually the ternary computer is another interesting idea |
| 14:16.25 | ``Erik | embedded machines seem to be shifting towards x86 |
| 14:16.27 | clock_ | The analog computers were built usually with opamps right? |
| 14:16.37 | ``Erik | it's really effin' sad, it's such a feeble arch |
| 14:16.58 | ``Erik | I don't like this, you're making me angry by making me admit it :( |
| 14:17.00 | claymore | opamps later in 'life' but tubes prior to that. |
| 14:17.14 | clock_ | I wonder what if someone built an analog computer full of microwave amplifiers mixers multipliers and lots of them |
| 14:17.21 | clock_ | Could it perform some tasks fast? |
| 14:17.34 | ``Erik | eniac was a gymnasium sized room full of tubes |
| 14:17.42 | clock_ | it was digital? |
| 14:17.48 | ``Erik | sorta kinda |
| 14:17.52 | clock_ | :) |
| 14:18.03 | ``Erik | eniac was decimal digital |
| 14:18.12 | claymore | ``Erik: Wasn't the largest source of grief for Apple computer buyers the price? As I remeber it, Apple dropped motorola's PPC in lieu of the x86 architecture for mainly the cost savings... |
| 14:18.18 | clock_ | analog is fun a simple element can have a tremendous computational power |
| 14:18.18 | ``Erik | and brliac was decimal digital, too |
| 14:18.32 | ``Erik | and later used "kings own" |
| 14:18.47 | ``Erik | thatwas the sattement, claymore, I don't buy it |
| 14:19.18 | claymore | problem with analog is that it is uber sensitive to drift in the components. Once an analog computer reaches a certain size/complexity, it would be spending more time down being calibrated that it would be spending being useful... |
| 14:19.33 | ``Erik | *shrug* my laptop runs firefox, Xterm, and wow... it's all good :) |
| 14:19.45 | clock_ | how would a firefox look on an analog computer? |
| 14:19.54 | ``Erik | blurry |
| 14:19.55 | clock_ | If you sneeze at it, the HTML elements wave around the screen? |
| 14:20.02 | clock_ | with ghosts in the picture |
| 14:20.12 | clock_ | can you adjust the antenna? I can't read this table ;-) |
| 14:20.19 | clock_ | Analog stuff has LIFE! |
| 14:20.31 | ``Erik | I almost vomitted from laughing, stop that shit |
| 14:20.58 | clock_ | and xterm... |
| 14:21.13 | ``Erik | I live in an xterm |
| 14:21.15 | clock_ | adjusting a sync knob until the commands stop cycling around the screen |
| 14:21.37 | clock_ | we have analog computers in our heads why do we build cold lifeless digital computers? |
| 14:21.58 | ``Erik | because boolean algebra is clean |
| 14:22.41 | ``Erik | we have the notions of "yes" and "no" in our heads |
| 14:22.44 | claymore | digital = faster :) |
| 14:22.50 | clock_ | we have emotions |
| 14:23.01 | clock_ | I think that's because computers were designed by people who are not very good in emotions :) |
| 14:23.09 | ``Erik | YOU may have emotions, I'm far more efficient :D |
| 14:23.16 | claymore | a digital computer can execute the crappy code we write in nanoseconds, yet it takes us hours/days to debug :) |
| 14:23.31 | claymore | skynet = computer + emotions. |
| 14:23.33 | claymore | no thanks. |
| 14:23.43 | ``Erik | but then arnie won't come visit :( |
| 14:23.47 | clock_ | inserts a PCB labeled "Firefox"into his |
| 14:23.57 | clock_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:24.22 | claymore | I'll take the Terminatrix in lieu of the Governator. |
| 14:24.31 | clock_ | imagine you have signal and you want to determine if it's 1MHz or 10 MHz |
| 14:24.46 | clock_ | With a digital computer you would need a powerful MCU, sample the signal and do some mathematics |
| 14:25.03 | ``Erik | ok, clock, build me a powerful analog computer |
| 14:25.04 | clock_ | With analog computer you just hook a gate, diode, capacitor and resistor and get the answer immediately with almost no power requirements! |
| 14:25.16 | claymore | nah, I'll just use the PCI mounted O-Scope/multimeter. Done. |
| 14:25.20 | ``Erik | I don't even want possession, just a shell |
| 14:25.21 | clock_ | lol |
| 14:25.23 | ``Erik | make it |
| 14:25.25 | clock_ | rack mounted :) |
| 14:25.46 | claymore | Erik in the Shell ... a new Manga. |
| 14:25.50 | ``Erik | it took me a while to grok why gate propogation time is important |
| 14:26.05 | ``Erik | and why 74xx series chips were useful at all |
| 14:26.10 | ``Erik | because I kept thinking analog |
| 14:26.14 | ``Erik | but they ARE useful |
| 14:26.28 | claymore | lol, yes, having a ff's failing to trip is usually a bad thing. |
| 14:26.41 | ``Erik | er, why use an 'or' ttl when you can just plug two wires onto the same bar? |
| 14:26.44 | ``Erik | O.o |
| 14:26.51 | claymore | hahahaha |
| 14:27.07 | ``Erik | well, that's the fucking issue |
| 14:27.11 | clock_ | ``Erik: to satisfy the EE professor? |
| 14:27.22 | claymore | "Lets see how this IC reacts when I hit the output with 5.5v of reverse voltage..." |
| 14:27.25 | clock_ | ``Erik: if you would see my electronics design, you would stop laughing |
| 14:27.29 | ``Erik | at the time, yes, but then I got the notion of stateful holding |
| 14:27.49 | clock_ | 15 HC gates in parallel driving a power LED, with their power being regulated in an analog way through a feedback transistor... |
| 14:28.00 | ``Erik | there're lots of places where it makes sense to go stateless holding, but sometimes, you NEED that ttl shit |
| 14:28.04 | clock_ | Signal processing from diodes capacitors resistors and Schmitt gates |
| 14:28.24 | claymore | 's favorite EE term is Schmitt. |
| 14:28.29 | claymore | :D |
| 14:28.32 | clock_ | Shit trigger is a great thing |
| 14:28.37 | ``Erik | piece of schmitt |
| 14:28.43 | clock_ | :D |
| 14:28.52 | claymore | Was the core of *MANY* jokes on the boat. |
| 14:29.20 | ``Erik | for those who don't know, claymore was tube sperm, enlisted on a sub |
| 14:29.21 | ``Erik | :) |
| 14:29.44 | claymore | "Stick your head in there and check the doping of the Shmitt will ya? " - "Screw you!" :D |
| 14:29.45 | clock_ | what is tube sperm and what is a sub? |
| 14:30.19 | ``Erik | submarine, adn tube sperm is a derogary term for the folk serving |
| 14:30.22 | claymore | Bubblehead, Tuber, Subhuman.... yeah heard em all :D |
| 14:31.05 | ``Erik | I still like tube sperm :) |
| 14:31.25 | ``Erik | sorry, my dad was a jet mech on a carrier |
| 14:31.33 | ``Erik | I grey up on navy towns |
| 14:31.34 | ``Erik | :) |
| 14:31.36 | ``Erik | grew |
| 14:31.57 | claymore | and that means he was a Surface Jerk and served on a Target :) |
| 14:32.13 | ``Erik | hehehe, well, he ain't got shot at |
| 14:32.27 | clock_ | what happens when you breathe all the air on the sub? |
| 14:32.29 | claymore | was death from below! |
| 14:32.32 | clock_ | Then you start breathing water? |
| 14:32.32 | ``Erik | good for me, he lived to donate for my existance |
| 14:33.01 | claymore | Its a requirement for all US Navy submariners to have gills and be able to stay underwater > 6 hours. |
| 14:33.02 | ``Erik | they hug their chest and pray that the bends doesn't take them |
| 14:33.19 | claymore | :D |
| 14:34.08 | claymore | Real answer: There are O2 generators, CO2 scrubbers and CO burners that replenish the atomosphere. |
| 14:34.09 | ``Erik | and, uh, vc aint no plain suface ship, it's got a flee to unfuck it |
| 14:34.47 | claymore | vc = ?? |
| 14:34.51 | ``Erik | if a vc goes down, it was an epic fleet fail |
| 14:35.00 | ``Erik | fleet carrier |
| 14:35.06 | clock_ | electronic warfare mast what can it be? |
| 14:35.09 | claymore | ah, cv/cvn |
| 14:35.10 | claymore | okay |
| 14:35.12 | clock_ | TV antenna for long winter nights? |
| 14:35.36 | ``Erik | cv, yes, I was backwards |
| 14:35.59 | claymore | Subrock >> cvn... but they won't let use us em any more :( |
| 14:36.01 | ``Erik | I'm sure all my fathers servies were cvn |
| 14:36.06 | clock_ | CO burners? Do you cook on town gas down there? |
| 14:37.11 | claymore | yes, we take 100+ km hoses with us. |
| 14:37.22 | claymore | :D |
| 14:37.38 | ``Erik | man, the riptide really fucks your duty on that |
| 14:38.05 | clock_ | Reactor sizes range up to 550 MW |
| 14:38.11 | clock_ | Hehe how many seconds from 0 to 100? |
| 14:38.12 | claymore | Yeah, it sucks really bad when the OOD turns the boat too quick and cuts the gasline with the screw. Cold cuts for the rest of the deployment :/ |
| 14:38.36 | claymore | clock_: Procedureally, about 5-10 minutes. |
| 14:38.45 | ``Erik | there's no way he can answer you honest on that, clock |
| 14:38.59 | claymore | if there is badness happening < 1 microsecond :) |
| 14:39.29 | ``Erik | military capibility tends to be an awful secret thing, don't evne ask |
| 14:39.57 | claymore | ``Erik: Thats kinda true, but since it's not like pushing the 'reactor gas pedal' down and watching the boat accellerate, then the question is vauge at best. |
| 14:40.18 | ``Erik | let it float, dude |
| 14:40.39 | claymore | the exact specifics are classified, but you can get the basic, and even advanced concepts of Pressurized Water Reactor theory on the web. |
| 14:40.56 | claymore | ``Erik: thats what we do with the contents of our San Tanks :) |
| 14:41.12 | ``Erik | 'cept when you dump over my planets, bitch |
| 14:41.32 | claymore | lol |
| 14:41.41 | claymore | sorry bout that. |
| 14:42.00 | ``Erik | I"m sure I'd crush you on fenix, so it's all good |
| 14:42.25 | claymore | Its impossible to defeat a foe that isn't there though :/ |
| 14:42.37 | ``Erik | when ya get there... :D |
| 14:42.48 | claymore | clock_: Nuklar Power fer Dummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor |
| 14:42.51 | ``Erik | I'm pissed off, wow isn't live |
| 14:43.32 | ``Erik | did you read up on the story about tamm, claymore? |
| 14:43.33 | claymore | that does suck. Today is a good MMO day. |
| 14:43.43 | claymore | linkage? |
| 14:43.49 | ``Erik | um, was on smacksnot |
| 14:44.08 | ``Erik | the dude who leaekd the illegal nsa tapping |
| 14:44.35 | claymore | no, missed that. |
| 14:44.51 | ``Erik | http://www.newsweek.com/id/174601/page/1 |
| 14:45.42 | ``Erik | http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/15/1851212' |
| 14:45.55 | ``Erik | sans the quote mark at the end |
| 14:45.57 | claymore | yeah, I heard about that. |
| 14:46.10 | ``Erik | disturbing stuff |
| 14:46.17 | claymore | he had no business blowing the whistle and should be locked up imo. |
| 14:46.35 | ``Erik | I disagree |
| 14:46.47 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 14:47.21 | claymore | Well, the way I see it, there are two completely seperate issues. 1) Illegal Activities by the Gov. 2) Divulging Government Secrets. |
| 14:47.55 | claymore | He was right and wrong. |
| 14:47.58 | ``Erik | yes, I believe that illegal gov't actities forgoe and protection |
| 14:48.08 | ``Erik | any |
| 14:48.13 | claymore | the gov also was right and wrong. |
| 14:48.27 | ``Erik | it's a huge risk to publicise them |
| 14:48.29 | claymore | the Gov had the protection of the people in mind, but went about it the wrong way. |
| 14:48.42 | ``Erik | I don't know if I agree with that |
| 14:48.50 | claymore | Tamm saw an illegal activity in progress, but went about addressing it wrong. |
| 14:49.30 | ``Erik | I think mebbe the administration thought that may've had the right notion, but they sure didn't do it right |
| 14:49.45 | claymore | The american government isn't full of angels, nor is it this horrible, completely corrupt thing. |
| 14:50.10 | ``Erik | I think I'd rather be subject to possibly foreign assault than gauranteed assault by those supposed to be protecting me |
| 14:50.28 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 14:50.36 | claymore | Anyone who thinks that the illegal wire taps were done for the sole purpose of 'personal gain' on a government offical's part... is, well, an idiot. |
| 14:51.19 | ``Erik | not personal gain, but it's an extension of an organizaions ability into previously illegal areas |
| 14:51.24 | claymore | You are correct in that the Bush Administration had the people's safety at heart, but again, not all of the administration are angles, nor corrupt. |
| 14:51.43 | claymore | Oh I agree 100%. It was an illegal act. |
| 14:51.55 | ``Erik | I'm sure they think they are working towards what they think is a safer situation, but they are curb stomping protections of americans |
| 14:52.05 | claymore | But then again, us civies probably hear about 1-2% of the covert operations that actualyl take place. |
| 14:52.35 | ``Erik | if that much, ... I'm not saying it doens't ahppen, I'm saying it's wrong :) |
| 14:52.55 | ``Erik | I mean, look at the deep throat sitaution |
| 14:53.12 | ``Erik | that was peanuts compared to what's going on now |
| 14:53.19 | ``Erik | but it was huge |
| 14:53.19 | claymore | Heh, then there is the whole ethical issue: Is something considered wrong if no one knows about it? |
| 14:53.22 | claymore | true. |
| 14:54.06 | ``Erik | I feel compelled to not condone or respect that crap that's being accepted now, it's illegal and abusive |
| 14:54.09 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 14:54.11 | claymore | My personal take is that all great nations fall, history repeats, but for us, I think we are going to tear ourselves apart. Not from an external source. |
| 14:54.43 | ``Erik | yeah, I'd kinda like the system to work at least as long for me and my children to die before it fails |
| 14:55.00 | ``Erik | I think bush et al is making that all happen far to soon |
| 14:55.12 | claymore | I kinda see it as a parallel to the whole justice premise: "7 guilty men go free before 1 innocent man is locked up" |
| 14:55.48 | claymore | Many many people would rather choose to have more planes rammed into buildings and buildings blown up before they give a little on their personal freedoms. |
| 14:56.27 | ``Erik | in most of the US, the guilty dude is still around to sue for his innocence, texan/bush philosophy advocates state murder O.o |
| 14:56.30 | claymore | bah, Bush is just the front man. The real people calling the shots are not well known :/ |
| 14:56.40 | ``Erik | yeah, I agree |
| 14:56.46 | ``Erik | but he IS the front man |
| 14:56.50 | ``Erik | so we can slap a name on him |
| 14:57.46 | claymore | Responsible, yes. The person accountable for the govs actions... probably not. I honestly don't think he is *that* smart/stupid. "Just sign here Mr President..." |
| 14:57.47 | ``Erik | I think cheney and snow and them have done far more evil, but *shrug* they're not the one with the title |
| 14:58.46 | ``Erik | <-- sure hopes shit changes come feb, might be looking for a new country to live in otherwise |
| 14:59.03 | ``Erik | :) |
| 14:59.10 | claymore | Anyways, as for the Tamm thing, illegal or not, State secrets are still State secrets. If he is let off, then it sends the message that "its okay to divulge secrets, given the situation." |
| 14:59.29 | claymore | and *that* will start the down ward spiral :/ |
| 14:59.50 | ``Erik | yeah, he broke the low, the question is wether it was acceptable... probably not, but it was something that NEEDED to be leaked, I'd imagine |
| 14:59.53 | ``Erik | I d'no |
| 15:00.09 | claymore | Yeah, tough ethics question... good case study actually :) |
| 15:00.20 | claymore | Both he and the Gov need to be put on trial. |
| 15:00.58 | ``Erik | were I on the panel, I'd probably claim him a patriot and be aggressive against the gov't |
| 15:01.12 | ``Erik | but I have my own bias here :) |
| 15:01.25 | claymore | I think if the illegal taps were an isolated incident, I wouldn't be so worried. |
| 15:01.40 | claymore | Heh, well that all depends on your view of patriot then doesn't it? |
| 15:02.08 | claymore | Because it could just as easily be said that he was a traitor and endangereg hundreds or thousands of American's lives |
| 15:02.09 | ``Erik | I like to note that in the 1700's, there were a bunch of terrorists that were doing insane things like isolated bullets from teh woods and no fair fights... that was the revolutionary war |
| 15:02.23 | claymore | yeah, i love that parallel :) |
| 15:02.36 | ``Erik | we exist as a country pretty much because of the thing we're fighting right now |
| 15:02.50 | claymore | Britan got whooped because they would'nt change military tactics. |
| 15:03.12 | claymore | And as you said, here we are 'not stooping to their level' to bring the fight to them. heh. |
| 15:03.38 | ``Erik | franky, I say lets walk away from the middle east, let israel get curb stomped, ... whatever *shrug* |
| 15:03.46 | claymore | amen. |
| 15:04.16 | ``Erik | every war isreal has been in, the US has done logistics for them... logistics is 90% of a war |
| 15:04.17 | claymore | Build more nuklar powerplants, pour $ into electric motor research and give OPEC the middle finger. |
| 15:04.19 | ``Erik | er, wtf? |
| 15:05.04 | ``Erik | waits for dudes in black suites to show up O.o |
| 15:05.21 | claymore | I say drop about 10-20 c-130's worth of guns and munitions inbetween Israel and the gaza strip and let them finish it... |
| 15:05.37 | claymore | but then again, its not our fight, and if it weren't for (mainly) oil, we could care less. |
| 15:06.00 | ``Erik | I d'no, it confuses me |
| 15:06.09 | ``Erik | especially with shit like the uss liberty |
| 15:06.19 | ``Erik | israel napalmed a US ship |
| 15:06.21 | ``Erik | wtf? |
| 15:06.40 | claymore | Nothing is black and white... |
| 15:06.49 | ``Erik | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident |
| 15:07.09 | ``Erik | yeah, but if you have fighter doing flybys and thumbs up, then turning and dumping munitions |
| 15:07.12 | ``Erik | that's effed up |
| 15:08.11 | claymore | True. But the whole nature of napalm is effed up too. |
| 15:08.49 | ``Erik | *shrug* hostilities are messed up, why can't we all just get along? |
| 15:08.50 | claymore | The Trojan horse is still a valid tactic. Non american ships fly american flags all the time |
| 15:09.05 | ``Erik | yeah,and american ships fly nonamerican flags |
| 15:09.21 | claymore | pppft, no, we dont do that! :D |
| 15:09.38 | ``Erik | the issue with the liberty is that there was close fly confrimation, then assault |
| 15:10.07 | claymore | like I said, its rpobably not as black and white as that :/ |
| 15:10.32 | ``Erik | *shrug* mebbe not, but how would you feel in that situation? |
| 15:11.19 | ``Erik | plane flies by, waving and stuff, it's all cool, it turns back and... well... starts dumping aoe killers on you? |
| 15:11.44 | claymore | depends on who i was. Am I the arrogant Israeli commander ordering the attack that would look foolish infront of his subordinates? Am I the Israeli pilot who didn't have to deploy the weapons? |
| 15:12.03 | claymore | Am I the Sailor caught by the most lethal of weapons: surprize? |
| 15:12.09 | claymore | etc |
| 15:12.11 | ``Erik | yeah *shrug* |
| 15:12.39 | ``Erik | I'd still be awfully carefuly if I were deploying lethal weapons |
| 15:12.46 | claymore | It would be nice to draw a line and state 'Good Guys and Bad Guys'... makes things easier. |
| 15:13.09 | ``Erik | that was the thing, there WAS that line drawn |
| 15:13.28 | ``Erik | this was a ship flying US colors, with american lookin' folk on it.. |
| 15:13.59 | ``Erik | and it was confirmed friendly, then turned around and attacked |
| 15:14.01 | ``Erik | wtff? |
| 15:15.49 | ``Erik | I d'no, it seems weird to me, but *shrug* I d'no, mistakes are made |
| 15:17.58 | ``Erik | I mean, if you ran surface, american flag, american vessel... flyby si all grins at you, then turn around and start dumping shit on you, uh, is that not a wtf? |
| 15:19.30 | brlcad | claymore: you should also take a look at the basic serialization routines that libbu provides (which librt uses to serialize data to .g files) - includes floating points type serialization (for non-ieee formats) |
| 15:19.40 | claymore | sounds like a similar ethical/moral choice that Tamm. I don't envy that pilot at all. |
| 15:20.05 | claymore | HEY get that Ontopic relatied stuff outta here! |
| 15:20.17 | ``Erik | no, libbu dont' give free endian trnaslation |
| 15:20.19 | ``Erik | :( |
| 15:20.37 | ``Erik | there are functions to handle that, but it's not free |
| 15:21.05 | brlcad | free? |
| 15:21.19 | ``Erik | you have to make the function call |
| 15:21.41 | ``Erik | you can't say "save this" and have it all happen |
| 15:22.12 | brlcad | sure, not arguing that -- just wondering where the "no, libbu dont'" comes from.. |
| 15:22.21 | brlcad | didn't say it was free |
| 15:22.35 | brlcad | said there are basic routines to help |
| 15:22.49 | ``Erik | you have to understand when to call the func, and then actually do it |
| 15:23.03 | ``Erik | htat's my argument |
| 15:23.11 | brlcad | who are you arguing with? :) |
| 15:23.27 | ``Erik | myself, apparently |
| 15:23.30 | brlcad | the goods are in htond.c htonf.c endian.c |
| 15:23.55 | ``Erik | there ain't no magic, that's wht I argue |
| 16:15.34 | claymore | wow up yet? |
| 16:21.18 | claymore | brlcad: Thanks for the tip! |
| 16:22.28 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03johnranderson * r33376 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librtserver/rtserver.c: MUVES3 package names have changed |
| 16:47.36 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33377 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/ (tankwizard/ tankwizard.tcl): Moved tankwizardIA to tankwizard. |
| 16:49.21 | brlcad | and xdr.c |
| 16:51.33 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33378 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tankwizard/TankWizard.tcl: Moved TankWizardIA.tcl to TankWizard.tcl |
| 16:57.13 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33379 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tankwizardIA/: Moved to tankwizard. |
| 16:59.49 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33380 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tankwizard/TankWizardIA.tcl: Remove TankWizardIA.tcl |
| 17:00.42 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33381 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tankwizardIA.tcl: Removed tankwizardIA.tcl |
| 17:06.00 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 17:18.40 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33382 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libbu/xdr.c: fix typo in comment, these are alternates for the bsd [hn]to[nh][sl] byteorder routines. |
| 17:22.51 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33383 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/Makefile.am: tankwizard was renamed sans IA suffix, fix distcheck |
| 17:45.06 | *** join/#brlcad Ralith_ (n=ralith@216.162.199.202) |
| 17:48.44 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33384 10/brlcad/trunk/src/mged/typein.c: Mods to keep variable declarations at the top of the block. |
| 18:32.21 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33385 10/brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc8/libged/libged.vcproj: Added tire to libged build on Windows. |
| 18:40.29 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r33386 10/brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc8/tclsh/library/installTree.tcl: Added code to install the Tank and Tire wizards. |
| 18:49.48 | CIA-6 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33387 10/brlcad/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): more repairs to the build, have to rename directories with a Makefile.am in configure.ac too, remove the IA. |
| 18:53.08 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@77-58-239-136.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 19:10.33 | brlcad | claymore: brlcad.org/~sean/tmp/ByteBag.cpp and ByteBag.hpp |
| 20:42.47 | *** join/#brlcad kanzure_ (n=bryan@user-0vvd95g.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 20:43.03 | kanzure_ | Hrm, so oed wants me to draw something first before I can use it. But what if I wanted to use the oed command from the shell? |
| 20:43.13 | kanzure_ | (without drawing) |
| 20:44.25 | kanzure_ | Ah, maybe this is doing the trick: "mged -c blah \"draw test3.r ; oed / /test.r/thing.s\"". |
| 20:44.52 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=madant@117.196.141.158) |
| 21:00.14 | *** join/#brlcad WhiteCalf (i=WhiteCal@whitecalf.net) |
| 21:03.34 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedy (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) |
| 21:17.33 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=WarLock@bas2-sudbury98-1177879464.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 21:18.17 | IriX64 | http://www3.sympatico.ca/mario.dulisse2/tty.png :) |
| 21:19.39 | IriX64 | i know it's off topic, but it's a good chuckle :) |
| 21:26.05 | madant | didn't get it :( |
| 21:26.53 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14CDEC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:27.08 | IriX64 | windows is usefull, it can build gcc :) |
| 21:27.54 | madant | more like gcc is awesome can "even" work with windows :P |
| 21:28.12 | IriX64 | we'll see if they coperate |
| 21:28.19 | IriX64 | cooperate too |
| 21:34.36 | louipc | how does windows build gcc? o.O |
| 21:35.04 | archivist | see djgpp the work is done for you |
| 21:36.40 | archivist | or join the djgpp project and move it on to 64 bit |
| 21:38.15 | IriX64 | it's tied to the hippo :) |
| 21:39.06 | IriX64 | on a serious note if i download and install tcl/tk 8.5.5 on my system can i cut the build time of brl-cad? |
| 21:39.45 | louipc | of course |
| 21:39.55 | madant | considering the fact that tcl-tk build takes quite a large portion of the build time |
| 21:39.56 | louipc | I find opennurbs is the killer one |
| 21:40.03 | IriX64 | so itll hunt and find them? |
| 21:40.11 | madant | I think more than half is opennurbs |
| 21:40.17 | IriX64 | i see thanks |
| 21:40.52 | IriX64 | is it the same tcl though, or does yours have stuff theirs doen't |
| 21:42.02 | louipc | I should probably just disable opennurbs for my own builds |
| 21:42.22 | IriX64 | --without-opennurbs? |
| 21:42.28 | louipc | something like that |
| 21:42.40 | louipc | see ./configure --help |
| 21:42.46 | IriX64 | never tried, i usually --enable-everything |
| 21:45.11 | IriX64 | a lot of options, some seem arcane :) |
| 21:46.21 | louipc | --disable-opennurbs |
| 21:46.34 | IriX64 | thanks |
| 21:47.18 | louipc | not really arcane, just a little inconsistent I guess eh? |
| 21:47.26 | IriX64 | heh, yea |
| 21:47.45 | IriX64 | ill look again, when this things finished churning |
| 22:39.40 | *** join/#brlcad csanyipal (n=csanyipa@91.102.231.33) |
| 23:26.20 | brlcad | hey madant |
| 23:26.27 | brlcad | ltns, how's it going? |
| 23:26.59 | madant | hi :) |
| 23:27.07 | brlcad | louipc: inconsistent how? |
| 23:27.13 | madant | sorry about the disappearance :) |
| 23:28.10 | brlcad | it's okay, it's been quite a busy winter thusfar still |
| 23:28.36 | madant | :) i still have to check out mafm's interface |
| 23:29.22 | madant | How's the geometry engine coming up |
| 23:29.58 | louipc | brlcad: there's too many aliases, so a configure commands could be extremely varied |
| 23:30.30 | mafm | my interface is very shy! |
| 23:30.49 | madant | :D |
| 23:31.16 | madant | I am quite sure that lots of people like shyness :P |
| 23:31.19 | louipc | mafm: do you have a screenie? |
| 23:32.33 | brlcad | madant: slowly as of late (at least visible progress) .. trying to get the guy working on the geometry service to commit more frequently (hint-hint), but mged->libged refactoring is just about complete |
| 23:32.39 | brlcad | slowly but steadily |
| 23:32.43 | mafm | louipc: http://bzflag.org/~mafm/g3d-screenshots/ |
| 23:32.47 | madant | was just heading out to run my 5km @ 5am.. terrible at it :( 25 minutes |
| 23:33.18 | louipc | mafm: cool thanks |
| 23:33.40 | madant | mafm: i like grey.. the violet not so much :) |
| 23:34.23 | brlcad | mafm: you know that you're user page now comes up as the 9th highest rank if you search for "rbgui"? :) |
| 23:34.26 | madant | brlcad: it is a big job anyways :) |
| 23:35.02 | brlcad | madant: yeah, it is -- about three staff years of time in all I estimated over a year ago |
| 23:35.08 | mafm | that's because of google's pagerank, because brlcad is so famous :P |
| 23:35.12 | brlcad | we're more than halfway into it |
| 23:35.13 | madant | first time I heard righ brain games gui from mafm i though WTF :D |
| 23:35.53 | mafm | well, there are no many alternatives, outside CEGUI |
| 23:36.03 | louipc | hehe |
| 23:37.11 | madant | :) ok be right back after i hopefully improve my run :) |
| 23:38.37 | mafm | and rbgui is very slick compared to CEGUI |
| 23:38.57 | mafm | it seems on a dead end (maintenance), but well... |
| 23:40.46 | Ralith | it's not like we can't take over if it works well |
| 23:42.05 | mafm | it's a bit primitive, but well :) |
| 23:50.12 | Ralith | mafm, what's that 'camera' subwindow for? |
| 23:51.37 | mafm | it's a test to create a widget, IIRC |
| 23:51.43 | Ralith | oh ok |
| 23:52.02 | mafm | besides that, you can move the camera with those buttons |
| 23:52.03 | Ralith | I was worried it was supposed to be a useful interface |
| 23:52.15 | mafm | the round thingy is to center, the rest to move and zoom |
| 23:52.45 | Ralith | 'cuz really you'd want all that to be done with single-key shortcuts |
| 23:54.29 | Ralith | I'd imagine you'd only need an actual GUI for explicitly setting values |
| 23:54.53 | mafm | for the camera? everything works with keystrokes, yes |
| 23:55.25 | mafm | it was brlcad who asked me to create a test widget as part of the project, to test the suitability of RBGui to the task, or something to that effect |
| 23:56.09 | Ralith | seems like a fairly straightforward grid layout |
| 23:58.00 | mafm | the simple but especialized widgets are the ones of "rotations" |
| 23:58.27 | Ralith | ? |
| 23:58.46 | Ralith | what are those? |
| 23:58.56 | Ralith | isn't sure what to make of the bars of color |
