| 01:40.34 | ``Erik | O.o |
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| 02:32.28 | starseeker | ``Erik: help |
| 02:33.05 | ``Erik | heh, uh, O.o no, the appropriate way to fix a light socket is not with a paperclip? |
| 02:33.39 | starseeker | where would autotools be getting lib/itcl3.4 instead of lib? |
| 02:34.01 | ``Erik | erm, from a script? |
| 02:34.12 | starseeker | ok, but which script? |
| 02:34.34 | ``Erik | <-- not sure what you're talking about |
| 02:34.38 | starseeker | apparently no one else is having this problem - me fears autotools is doing something odd |
| 02:34.54 | starseeker | oh, my itcl/itk installation is acting oddly |
| 02:35.04 | starseeker | I think it may be why I can't start archer |
| 02:35.58 | ``Erik | <-- never really dicked with the itcl/itk stuff other than merging in some cvs stuff to make it work with tcl85 |
| 02:36.17 | starseeker | ah |
| 02:36.54 | starseeker | hunts for some sort of "minimal" itk test file |
| 02:38.17 | ``Erik | to the best of my knowledge, itcl/itk is a nasty hack to emulate basic oo type stuff for tcl/tk, is going to be deprecated by tcl86 or something, and I have no clue what it's used for or why in brlcad :D I haven't spotted any of its goofy syntax in any tcl script I've dug into, unless I'm mistaken about the goofiness of it |
| 02:38.47 | starseeker | uh oh |
| 02:39.03 | starseeker | I think Bob has been using it quite a bit, both in archer and possibly his libtclcad |
| 02:39.21 | ``Erik | is generally unhappy when he has to venture into tcl land, likes the straight C path to rt* |
| 02:39.29 | starseeker | agrees |
| 02:39.48 | ``Erik | were it lithp or thcheme or thomething, I might feel differently |
| 02:40.11 | ``Erik | but I was, uh, mortified by tcl when I messed with it a little around a decade ago for eggdrop stuff |
| 02:40.13 | starseeker | ironically enough, this problem started when I tried to get a tcl/tk debugger working in bwish in order to debug archer |
| 02:40.30 | ``Erik | I even TRIED to like it! it shared certain things I could claim were almost scheme like |
| 02:40.57 | ``Erik | meh, shoulda just shoved a bunch of printf() and echo ""'s in |
| 02:41.07 | starseeker | apparently |
| 02:41.14 | starseeker | that just feels so... crude |
| 02:41.20 | starseeker | to say nothing of time consuming |
| 02:42.13 | ``Erik | often uses printf() debugging in C, even though he knows gdb reasonably well |
| 02:45.28 | starseeker | in this case, I know what's failing - I'm just not sure WHY |
| 02:46.18 | ``Erik | the nice thing about the printf style is you pick and choose all the data you want to examine and where, then just pull the trigger and get a nice log of what the program did to contemplate |
| 02:46.39 | ``Erik | instead of setting break points and examining before continuing |
| 02:47.03 | ``Erik | different tools for different problems *shrug* dismissing one 'just because' is limiting yourself :D |
| 02:47.33 | starseeker | oh, sure - I've used printf sometimes too |
| 02:48.01 | starseeker | but in the case of huge mass of code where I don't know what any of it is doing... |
| 02:48.43 | ``Erik | mass, or mess? |
| 02:48.50 | ``Erik | :D |
| 02:49.24 | starseeker | isn't ready to call it a mess yet... |
| 02:49.29 | starseeker | maybe later |
| 02:49.41 | ``Erik | <-- never debugged tcl stuff where he didn't have a good idea of what was going on and where the problem was before |
| 02:49.52 | starseeker | ah |
| 02:50.20 | ``Erik | http://crit.brlcad.org:9090/ ucw sorta doing something almost semi interesting |
| 02:50.59 | ``Erik | oddly, (push val history) didn't work, but (setf history (cons val history)) did |
| 02:51.30 | starseeker | cool |
| 02:51.38 | starseeker | is impressed |
| 02:53.42 | ``Erik | oh, heh, I screwed something up |
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| 03:01.11 | ``Erik | sweet, idiocracy on tv |
| 03:04.12 | Dr_Phreakenstein | so... |
| 03:04.20 | Dr_Phreakenstein | isn't that what is usually on? |
| 03:07.06 | ``Erik | no, usually it's idiotic, this is a movie mocking that :D |
| 03:07.14 | ``Erik | starseeker: fixed that ucw page, check it out now O.o |
| 03:07.53 | starseeker | heh - neat? |
| 03:08.20 | ``Erik | it's weired wiring it up, I THINK that involves all teh hard pars |
| 03:08.21 | ``Erik | parts |
| 03:08.38 | starseeker | wonders if anyone else has successfully muddled through ucw |
| 03:08.54 | ``Erik | um, there're like, 4, apparently |
| 03:09.32 | ``Erik | http://bees-kneesfilms.com is one of the few ucw sites out there O.o |
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| 03:19.15 | ``Erik | wtf |
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| 07:26.05 | mafm | hi |
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| 09:18.49 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33777 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libged/CMakeLists.txt: additional include directory because of new TCL version |
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| 09:40.12 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33778 10/rt^3/trunk/include/brlcad/common.h: new constructor for Vector3D |
| 09:46.11 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33779 10/rt^3/trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): some minor improvements |
| 09:47.15 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33780 10/rt^3/trunk/ (include/brlcad/Database.h src/coreInterface/Database.cpp): Add() to add an object to the database |
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| 11:58.07 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r33781 10/rt^3/trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): moved the Hit and HitCallback objects into ConstDatabase.h and deleted the now unnecessary header |
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| 13:30.05 | Satisfied | i'm looking for a cad program for a number of small projects that involves gear trains and pulley systems.... is brlcad appropriate or should i look into one of the commercial packages like solidworks or inventor? |
| 13:34.18 | ``Erik | are you looking for something to automatically tell you ratios and number of teeth and stuff, or model it? and are you looking for drafting output, or just visualization/analysis? |
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| 13:37.02 | Satisfied | well, I'm not anxious to spend hours constructing gears manually. I think Inventor has builtin templates that for the standard involute curves and such |
| 13:37.28 | ``Erik | hm, we have template and pattern tools, but no automagic gear build |
| 13:37.41 | _sushi_ | Satisfied: I even had to write a complicated program to approximate threads from oblique cylindrical slices |
| 13:37.57 | _sushi_ | The result is that BRL-CAD becomes overwhelmed with the number of component and the partitioning algorithm clogs |
| 13:38.09 | ``Erik | overwhelmed, or just slow? :D |
| 13:38.12 | _sushi_ | BRL-CAD doesn't have any thread primitive |
| 13:38.25 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: well it renders horribly slow |
| 13:38.41 | _sushi_ | Just because there are 20,000 non-overlapping slicesw |
| 13:38.51 | ``Erik | ohyeah, your freaky cut case |
| 13:38.53 | ``Erik | that was weird |
| 13:38.56 | _sushi_ | and one cut through all that |
| 13:39.03 | _sushi_ | with the cut it's 216 times slower as with |
| 13:39.05 | ``Erik | john added the -k to make that go fast for you |
| 13:39.19 | _sushi_ | We already talked about this with Sean and he said there is nothing that can be done against it |
| 13:39.27 | _sushi_ | Well - BRL-CAD is still the choise #1 :) |
| 13:39.40 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: what does the -k do? |
| 13:39.44 | ``Erik | (there's something you WON'T see with inventor or solidworks or catia, satisfied, we listen to the "little guy" users ;) |
| 13:39.52 | ``Erik | rt -k <cutting plane> |
| 13:39.55 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: right I agree |
| 13:40.18 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: maybe I could try to incorporate that into the scripts |
| 13:41.05 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: right that's what I hate on commercial packages - they are like if you don't like it fuck you you already gave us your money |
| 13:41.13 | ``Erik | but like a bicycle gear would be something like a squat cylinder to make the disc, subtract the hole, subtract one cutout for the link, then use clone or pattern to zip around the edge of the disc, and sub those tooth cylinders, bam, done |
| 13:41.23 | _sushi_ | here you don't have to give away any money, get the source code plus a reasonable support |
| 13:41.41 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: a bicycle cogwheel would be extremely simple I think |
| 13:41.51 | _sushi_ | I am not sure how I would do the invloute for an ordinary gear though |
| 13:42.04 | ``Erik | cut an arb8 for a sharp tooth |
| 13:42.27 | ``Erik | union two cylinders and cut that comb for a pedal tooth |
| 13:42.52 | _sushi_ | but teeth are not cylinders but some complicated math curve called involute aren't they? |
| 13:43.11 | ``Erik | <-- dunno, archivist is the gearmaster here :D |
| 13:43.29 | _sushi_ | But I think some primitives could be integrated into the program |
| 13:43.32 | ``Erik | I stay in the low level guts myself |
| 13:43.37 | _sushi_ | But you won't take my code since it's GPL only :) |
| 13:43.53 | ``Erik | I thought we had some gpl pieces already |
| 13:43.57 | _sushi_ | And Sean said something I would have to transfer the copyright |
| 13:44.06 | ``Erik | ohhh, yeah |
| 13:44.15 | _sushi_ | At least you could link my tool from your homepage |
| 13:44.22 | ``Erik | make a wiki for it |
| 13:44.23 | ``Erik | :D |
| 13:44.25 | _sushi_ | I think in some jurisdictions this is not even possible |
| 13:44.27 | ``Erik | wiki page |
| 13:44.33 | _sushi_ | You write something you have the (c) and you can't give it up |
| 13:44.45 | _sushi_ | You can licence sublicence but not transfer it's you who made it you have the copyright |
| 13:45.10 | ``Erik | yeah, the US isn't like that, and gets really ugly when you start talking things like "work for hire" issues |
| 13:45.41 | _sushi_ | Here is the thread tool http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/lib/thread.c |
| 13:45.55 | _sushi_ | And here is the hex tool http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/lib/hex.c |
| 13:46.09 | _sushi_ | Writing a doc for it would take too much time for me |
| 13:47.21 | _sushi_ | There are some random thread tables picked from the Internet and embedded into the program |
| 13:47.40 | _sushi_ | It's for metric only, I have no clue about withworth threads |
| 13:47.53 | ``Erik | should probably slap the GPL header on those so'z people know it's gpl |
| 13:48.02 | _sushi_ | All I know about them is a) they are used on water pipes, b) they are used on camera and c) they are next to impossible to get here |
| 13:49.16 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: you want a full GPL header? |
| 13:50.06 | ``Erik | I'm just sayin', GPL demands the gpl header on all files under the gpl, no? |
| 13:51.14 | _sushi_ | where the fuck do I get this header? |
| 13:51.19 | _sushi_ | I am googling and getting just junk! |
| 13:51.35 | ``Erik | it's in the gpl license itself |
| 13:52.40 | _sushi_ | is unable to find GPL quickjly |
| 13:53.14 | ``Erik | http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/lib/thread.c |
| 13:53.17 | ``Erik | damnit |
| 13:53.24 | ``Erik | http://bz.bzflag.bz/~erik/gpl.h |
| 13:53.33 | ``Erik | there ya go, fill in the blanks :) |
| 13:53.40 | _sushi_ | thanks youre my savior |
| 13:54.00 | ``Erik | hardly, heh :D |
| 13:55.47 | ``Erik | Satisfied: BRL-CAD is free, download it and give it a try :) we even have tutorials at http://brlcad.org and a reasonably active channel here :) |
| 13:55.52 | _sushi_ | warning: million pointer targets differ from billion others |
| 13:56.12 | _sushi_ | And it also rulez |
| 13:57.31 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: here with header: http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/lib/hex.c |
| 13:58.51 | ``Erik | heh, *shrug* I don't care too much, was just pointing out one of those non-technical issues that seem to be important these days (unfortunately) |
| 13:59.18 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: oh I thought it's an obstacle |
| 14:00.23 | ``Erik | nah, just advice on protecting yourself :) |
| 14:00.47 | _sushi_ | What does a GPL header protect me against? |
| 14:01.13 | ``Erik | hm, src/mged/point/ src/other/libpng/ other/tcl/generic/tclDate.c and src/tab/script.c all seem to be GPL'd |
| 14:02.00 | ``Erik | some theoretical protection of your 'intellectual property', and is a way of letting fellow developers know how they can use your code |
| 14:02.09 | ``Erik | without a header, people might assume it's public domain |
| 14:02.34 | ``Erik | src/other/libpng/contrib rather |
| 14:02.39 | _sushi_ | ``Erik: that's maybe in the US, here if you don't have any info then you have to assume it's proprietary |
| 14:03.41 | ``Erik | <-- ain't a lawyer, just read that lawyers say it's a good idea to mark your work with copyright info and if necessary, license info *shrug* |
| 14:04.04 | starseeker | here's a spring subtracted from an rcc http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/thread_test.png |
| 14:04.59 | _sushi_ | looks like the thread in which ball bearings run |
| 14:05.09 | starseeker | heh |
| 14:05.13 | starseeker | just a quick test |
| 14:05.30 | starseeker | tries an arb8 cut, just out of curiosity |
| 14:05.51 | ``Erik | nerds |
| 14:05.58 | _sushi_ | http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/hardware_4.png |
| 14:06.04 | _sushi_ | How did you make the spring? |
| 14:06.18 | ``Erik | http://static.arstechnica.com/2009/02/15/evercrack.jpg nice |
| 14:07.51 | starseeker | pipe primitive |
| 14:08.02 | _sushi_ | how do you make a helix with the pipe primitive? |
| 14:11.19 | starseeker | it's documented in Volume III |
| 14:11.43 | starseeker | I'm working on a procdb to automate it, but it's not done yet |
| 14:12.21 | starseeker | http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/thread_cut.png |
| 14:12.39 | starseeker | doesn't seem to be incredibly slow, but I don't have 200+ threads either |
| 14:15.14 | starseeker | _sushi_: Given time, I might be able to duplicate that setup using a pipe, but I don't know that there would be much performance benefit |
| 14:15.42 | _sushi_ | And you would get non-metric thread shape |
| 14:16.11 | _sushi_ | http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/threads/mechanics/recircBallBIG.jpeg |
| 14:16.54 | starseeker | non-metric? |
| 14:17.03 | starseeker | heh - that's cool |
| 14:17.19 | starseeker | talk about a great candidate for a brlcad model |
| 14:17.50 | _sushi_ | starseeker: normal threads don't look like what you've done |
| 14:17.55 | _sushi_ | The thread has a different shape |
| 14:18.00 | starseeker | sure |
| 14:18.15 | starseeker | what I did was a quick test using a spring I happened to have around |
| 14:18.43 | starseeker | I take it you were able to do metric thread? |
| 14:23.49 | _sushi_ | It's not exactly metric because it has near sinusoidal shape |
| 14:23.53 | _sushi_ | But it looks like metric :) |
| 14:24.16 | _sushi_ | metric is V-shape with round ends |
| 14:24.41 | _sushi_ | Actually only the convex end is round the concave one is V |
| 14:26.04 | starseeker | it might be possible to do that with some insane combination of existing primitives, but it would be difficult and would almost have to be scripted |
| 14:26.37 | _sushi_ | wouldn't it be possible to make a thread primitive? |
| 14:26.53 | _sushi_ | Cause a thread is just a stack of slices where the slice rotates |
| 14:27.11 | _sushi_ | Therefore a cylinder equation would suggest a rough place where the ray hits |
| 14:27.19 | starseeker | that's what I'm thinking - pipe indicates it is possible, but meta-primitives like pipe are (geometrically) composed of more simple primitives |
| 14:27.29 | _sushi_ | And then some local iteration would give the exact place of the hit |
| 14:27.34 | starseeker | a sweep primitive would allow it |
| 14:27.46 | _sushi_ | what's a sweep primitive? |
| 14:28.11 | starseeker | basically a generalization of extrude |
| 14:28.24 | starseeker | take a sketch, and sweep it through 3D space |
| 14:28.25 | _sushi_ | if you can sweep along a spiral... |
| 14:28.27 | starseeker | right |
| 14:28.45 | starseeker | rotate would be another subset of sweep |
| 14:29.11 | _sushi_ | but this is rotation and translation running at the same time |
| 14:29.25 | starseeker | right - that's why it would take a general sweep primitive |
| 14:29.28 | starseeker | which we don't have yet |
| 14:29.52 | _sushi_ | you can either sweep a little circle along a spiral |
| 14:30.12 | _sushi_ | Or you can sweep a large slightly eccentric circle along a straight line and rotate it in the process |
| 14:30.15 | starseeker | with sweep, we would sketch the exact profile of the thread, and sweep in a spiral |
| 14:30.24 | _sushi_ | Or you can sweep a square and get a funky 4-gang thread |
| 14:30.52 | starseeker | _sushi_: there's a project - make a sweep primitive :-) |
| 14:30.53 | _sushi_ | How would you make a conical thread |
| 14:30.58 | _sushi_ | like you have on wood screws> |
| 14:31.10 | starseeker | tries to visualize that |
| 14:31.16 | _sushi_ | Would be nice if we could at least model everything they have in hardware store |
| 14:31.26 | _sushi_ | without choking the system with a $ 0.1 item |
| 14:31.51 | starseeker | _sushi_ thread modeling is not one of our normal use cases |
| 14:31.51 | _sushi_ | we have this height field primitive right? |
| 14:32.02 | starseeker | that's out of date, I believe |
| 14:32.18 | _sushi_ | do we have some kind of bump map? |
| 14:32.45 | _sushi_ | cause thread is a kind of periodical bump map mapped on a cylinder or cone :) |
| 14:33.10 | _sushi_ | Where the parameter is some combination of the position and angle |
| 14:33.15 | starseeker | _sushi_: If we were going to do it "right", it would be by creating the sweep primitive |
| 14:33.45 | _sushi_ | but imagine the system throws a ray and if you have 100 turns it has to test each of them for intersection |
| 14:33.59 | starseeker | it's an optimization problem |
| 14:34.05 | _sushi_ | Whereas if you map on surface you calculate approx place of hit and then just reiterate to get the exact one |
| 14:34.33 | _sushi_ | there's an interesting electrical component called conical coil |
| 14:34.35 | starseeker | probably will need to go into the details with brlcad |
| 14:34.39 | _sushi_ | Which is a coil wound on a cone :) |
| 14:34.47 | starseeker | pipe can probably do that |
| 14:34.53 | louipc | how does the pipe primitive work? |
| 14:35.06 | starseeker | combinations of cylindars and tori, IIRC |
| 14:35.15 | louipc | isn't it like a psudo primitive? ok |
| 14:35.28 | starseeker | I consider it an example of a metaprimitive |
| 14:35.36 | louipc | so you could expand it to maybe use other shapes other than rcc |
| 14:35.51 | louipc | and you would get the correct shape for what type of thread you want |
| 14:36.07 | starseeker | you might be able to use the logic behind pipe for such purposes, but it wouldn't be "plug and play" |
| 14:36.19 | louipc | like 60degree, acme, square threads |
| 14:36.24 | starseeker | that would be a new primitive |
| 14:36.25 | louipc | yeah |
| 14:36.30 | starseeker | sweep :-) |
| 14:36.45 | louipc | hmm |
| 14:37.29 | starseeker | one of the earlier projects created part of a revolve primitive, as a stepping stone to the general case |
| 14:37.35 | starseeker | gsoc project |
| 14:37.49 | louipc | yeah you would need sweep |
| 14:38.15 | starseeker | it would be VERY powerful, given a proper sketch editor |
| 14:38.28 | louipc | hehe |
| 14:38.41 | starseeker | ours needs a little help, I'm afraid |
| 14:38.55 | starseeker | it does make a bit more sense now that I understand the data structures |
| 14:39.41 | starseeker | IIRC, sweep and revolve of sketches is actually a pretty common paradigm in other cad systems for shape creation |
| 14:39.59 | starseeker | its very general |
| 14:41.26 | louipc | yep, especially for cylindrical stuff |
| 14:41.39 | starseeker | the advantage of CSG the way we do it is that it constrains the model into representing things with simple geometry. |
| 14:41.40 | louipc | lathework |
| 14:42.00 | starseeker | that has both benefits and limitations |
| 14:42.19 | starseeker | as long as the simple geometric representation is a good approximation, it's better |
| 14:42.27 | louipc | yeah |
| 14:42.32 | starseeker | where "good" is defined by the application |
| 14:42.36 | louipc | well you have to choose the right tool for the application |
| 14:42.44 | louipc | jinx |
| 14:42.47 | starseeker | obviously for precision surface creation, it's not ideal |
| 14:43.11 | starseeker | but then we don't model too many sports cars ;-) |
| 14:43.49 | starseeker | may be speaking too soon though, given brlcad's new car |
| 14:43.59 | starseeker | OK, time to start getting chores done |
| 14:47.33 | archivist | ``Erik, I heard my name :) |
| 14:47.33 | starseeker | Not sure what this paper is or if it is any good, but Figure 10 gives a reasonable example of what a swept primitive looks like: http://www.unknownroad.com/publications/SweepsTRApril2005.pdf |
| 14:47.33 | ``Erik | there was talk about BRL-CAD's ability to do gears :D |
| 14:47.43 | starseeker | intends to do that |
| 14:47.53 | starseeker | but must do chores/shopping first |
| 14:47.54 | archivist | many sorts of gears exist |
| 14:48.07 | starseeker | should make a fun tool :-) |
| 14:48.15 | archivist | and some have the fiddle factors |
| 14:48.24 | starseeker | tire all over again :-) |
| 14:49.10 | ``Erik | bump map is a visual hack based on normals and exists in shader land... displacement map would be a closer notion, but is still a shader issue, not true geometry |
| 14:50.52 | ``Erik | starseeker: did you see the updated ucw thingy? |
| 15:03.30 | starseeker | the roman numerals? |
| 15:03.34 | starseeker | yeah, that was cool |
| 15:04.31 | ``Erik | where you could input? the first one I showed had the input part broken :) |
| 15:04.43 | starseeker | yeah, input worked :-) |
| 15:04.56 | ``Erik | okie, now to figure out something 'real' to do to extend my knowledge heh |
| 15:05.03 | starseeker | :-) |
| 15:05.11 | starseeker | gets real with laundry :-( |
| 15:05.29 | ``Erik | the guy to look at my door jam is late |
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