| 00:09.27 | brlcad | miqlas: does the SE assembly include all of that geometry? |
| 00:09.46 | miqlas | yes, it include all of them |
| 00:09.55 | brlcad | and how about LGPL? |
| 00:10.02 | miqlas | Ralith: with commands. Typing with keyboard... |
| 00:10.05 | brlcad | or BSD/MIT |
| 00:10.49 | Ralith | miqlas: what's wrong with that? |
| 00:10.57 | brlcad | or CC-BY or CC-BY-SA |
| 00:11.01 | Ralith | done right, that kind of interface can be a big improvement on a GUI |
| 00:11.10 | miqlas | brlcad : it was an complex work, and if it will good for BRL-CAD You can use it for free, and with any licenses. You can select the best for You. |
| 00:11.29 | brlcad | miqlas: I can't select a license unless you public domain it |
| 00:11.34 | brlcad | and I dont' think you should do that |
| 00:11.50 | miqlas | Ralith : what is wrong? nothing, but i don't want make it. :S |
| 00:12.12 | Ralith | :P |
| 00:12.13 | brlcad | I care mostly about you getting attribution for the work |
| 00:12.32 | miqlas | Okay, you can make anything with it. This is belong to the community. MIT, okay? |
| 00:12.34 | Ralith | brlcad: I think he means he'll use what you suggest. |
| 00:12.35 | brlcad | beyond that, I don't mind -- gpl is just problematic because of how it defines a collective work |
| 00:12.51 | brlcad | miqlas: sure, that works great |
| 00:13.12 | miqlas | Then okay. :D |
| 00:13.21 | brlcad | that website repository could come in handy right now :) |
| 00:13.27 | brlcad | where is elena? :) |
| 00:13.58 | miqlas | Now it have CC license in the package. I need delete the license, or You belive to me, i give it to community with MIT? |
| 00:14.15 | brlcad | (not a serious question, she's on the road visiting family right now) |
| 00:14.16 | miqlas | And wich format You want? SEv10 academic, or independent? |
| 00:14.35 | brlcad | miqlas: how big is it? |
| 00:14.44 | miqlas | 14 Mb. |
| 00:15.52 | brlcad | mm, if you e-mail that to me saying you are sharing it under the MIT license and I can replace the CC license with the MIT license, I can do the work |
| 00:16.23 | brlcad | otherwise, you can add a text file with it or something that has a statement |
| 00:16.29 | brlcad | a README or something |
| 00:16.44 | miqlas | Then native Sev10 (academic!! You can't open it in industrial version!) format will be good for You? |
| 00:17.07 | brlcad | hm, lemme check on that |
| 00:17.08 | brlcad | not sure |
| 00:17.35 | miqlas | I can convert with academic version for You to step, or anything else format |
| 00:18.30 | brlcad | oh yeah, then please do -- the SE format itself isn't useful |
| 00:18.37 | brlcad | I was just going to export as well |
| 00:18.49 | brlcad | 3ds, step, iges, dxf |
| 00:18.55 | brlcad | all useful/interesting formats |
| 00:19.04 | miqlas | Okay. But here is now 02:18am, and i don't have SE installed. I will send it for You at morning. Okay? |
| 00:19.06 | brlcad | Hmmm.... http://www.sharewareconnection.com/3ds-export-for-solid-edge.htm |
| 00:19.12 | miqlas | Are You always onine on IRC? |
| 00:19.20 | brlcad | miqlas: okay, no rush and thank you! |
| 00:19.25 | brlcad | yeah, I'm always on irc |
| 00:19.34 | brlcad | if I don't immediately respond, I eventually will |
| 00:19.38 | miqlas | Feel free to give a beer:) |
| 00:19.50 | brlcad | will certainly! |
| 00:19.59 | brlcad | hope to have the opportunity to some day :) |
| 00:20.23 | miqlas | ;) |
| 00:20.28 | brlcad | good grief.. 200 bucks for a shareware 3ds exporter, heh |
| 00:20.50 | brlcad | especially given they're probably using openNURBS which did half the work for them |
| 00:21.26 | miqlas | :) good marketing. |
| 00:23.03 | miqlas | But brlcad you need make something for the cad assembly... |
| 00:23.55 | brlcad | hm? |
| 00:24.21 | miqlas | Please, make the BRL-CAD to very portable app. We, at in the Haiku commiunity don't like if an app have very special requiments. For example not portable libraryes, flash, or any bloated things. |
| 00:25.03 | brlcad | miqlas: we have historically been one of the most portable pieces of software out there -- you end up being very portable after 25 years of development |
| 00:25.06 | miqlas | Please, make the BRL-CAD very nice, and usable, without readin 500 page. |
| 00:25.46 | brlcad | like I said, we should work now on haiku, at least 99% of our codebase should work just fine |
| 00:26.01 | brlcad | the latter takes a long time |
| 00:26.30 | miqlas | I like to see more app on Haiku platform, to make it usable for wide userbase, and we need good, stable, and lightweight apps. I know, the BRL-CAD is a "monster", but i hope on someday it will work correctly with Haiku. |
| 00:27.12 | brlcad | miqlas: think of it more like 400 lightweight apps, that is how it is designed |
| 00:27.12 | Ralith | BRL-CAD is a highly portable monster. |
| 00:28.06 | brlcad | miqlas: the fact that we put them all together is more for distribution convenience, but brl-cad really is a collection of a LOT of applications .. not just one 'monster' application |
| 00:28.17 | miqlas | I read the comments of the mplayer guys, and an developer told: The BeOS and Haiku is a C++ crap, and he don't want support it. Please, never tell anything like this. Lot of people working on this project for free, and i like this os. |
| 00:28.47 | brlcad | heh, not likely |
| 00:28.58 | brlcad | i'm an old-time beos fan, big fan |
| 00:29.10 | miqlas | Then if You don't tell Haiku will never be supported, You can get the assembly for free, with MIT. Thanks. |
| 00:29.12 | brlcad | seeing it survive in any form is a 'good thing' |
| 00:29.46 | brlcad | used to run beos as his primary desktop back in the day |
| 00:29.53 | brlcad | for the little while it lasted |
| 00:29.58 | Ralith | brlcad: what attracts you to it? |
| 00:30.07 | brlcad | Ralith: ooof! |
| 00:30.11 | brlcad | what didn't! |
| 00:30.19 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-67.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |
| 00:30.21 | miqlas | brlcad, the BRL-CAD was running on BeOS? |
| 00:31.21 | miqlas | Ralith : you can check it with Your own eyes, download the image, and write it to Your flashdrive (500 mb is enough) and boot it. It is very cool. |
| 00:31.42 | brlcad | an OS designed from the ground up ditching most of the baggage we have today, geared for absurdly high performance, insane interactivity, impressive filesystem, multithreading dream |
| 00:31.50 | Ralith | miqlas: don't have that much time atm, and I'd be surprised if it supported my hardware. |
| 00:32.06 | Ralith | brlcad: sounds cool. Insane interactivity? |
| 00:32.09 | brlcad | miqlas: haiku is getting there, but still not yet nearly as impressive as beos was during r5 |
| 00:32.14 | ``Erik | fully threaded micro? |
| 00:32.51 | miqlas | Haiku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccniJHjo_Uw and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7vM1Gc6_po |
| 00:33.05 | miqlas | Fully threaded, and it use microkernel. |
| 00:33.06 | brlcad | Ralith: no matter what you were doing, the system stayed responsive .. nay a hiccup |
| 00:33.10 | Ralith | oo |
| 00:33.11 | Ralith | cool! |
| 00:33.13 | brlcad | like playing a half-dozen movies |
| 00:33.17 | brlcad | all simultaneously |
| 00:33.24 | Ralith | and haiku is a reimpl? |
| 00:33.27 | brlcad | rendered to the faces of a spinning cube |
| 00:33.34 | brlcad | while playing music |
| 00:33.34 | Ralith | wow, way back then? |
| 00:33.38 | Ralith | jesus |
| 00:33.44 | brlcad | and on an all pentium 200 |
| 00:33.45 | Ralith | how did that manage to fail |
| 00:33.49 | brlcad | s/all/old/ |
| 00:33.57 | brlcad | marketing and microsoft |
| 00:34.01 | ``Erik | toyed with haiku, never tried be itself, though |
| 00:34.13 | miqlas | BeOS (mother of Haiku) was closed source. |
| 00:34.22 | ``Erik | bebox was a neat machine |
| 00:34.36 | ``Erik | dual cpu when it was unheard of |
| 00:34.44 | ``Erik | and awesome load LED bars on the front :D |
| 00:34.59 | miqlas | Yes :) |
| 00:35.39 | Ralith | now you've got me interested |
| 00:35.39 | brlcad | haiku is a pretty cool reimplementation, it covers almost all of the original API, included binary compatibility, and has even started to add their own improvements |
| 00:35.41 | Ralith | miqlas: how's the HW support? |
| 00:35.48 | miqlas | BeOS on dual 300Mhz PII: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv6twfh2SgI |
| 00:36.01 | brlcad | that's the only hard part af the moment, they're not fully stable, but there is a 1.0 release coming out soon |
| 00:36.09 | brlcad | hardware is hit or miss |
| 00:36.42 | brlcad | and their performance certainly isn't up to par with beos in most areas, but then they're working mostly on functional first |
| 00:36.42 | miqlas | Ralith : always better and better. It have native sound + OSS, FreeBSD like net_stack |
| 00:36.47 | Ralith | I wish I had reason to believe alternative OSs had a chance :/ |
| 00:36.59 | Ralith | beyond the unixen./ |
| 00:37.06 | brlcad | their API is still pretty much considered to be one of the best-designed APIs ever |
| 00:37.42 | Ralith | wow damn that was a fast bootup |
| 00:37.53 | Ralith | pretty GUI too |
| 00:37.54 | brlcad | all GUI applications were inherintly multithreaded for example |
| 00:37.59 | brlcad | without the dev doing anything really |
| 00:38.14 | miqlas | I have AMD 3000+ Sempron, 1Gb ram, and Haiku boot up under 3-4 seconds. |
| 00:38.14 | brlcad | which kept all apps responsive even under heavy load |
| 00:39.03 | Ralith | wants :( |
| 00:39.07 | miqlas | It can use more core / more CPU. And You can enable/disable them in runtime. |
| 00:39.14 | brlcad | yeah, fast bootups were a beos philosophy -- it was originally almost instantaneous (like less than a second), but even less than 5sec to usable in latter years -- haiku preserves that (woo hoo) |
| 00:39.49 | miqlas | Ralith, if You interrested, go to #haiku chanel, here on the Freenode IRC. |
| 00:40.05 | Ralith | miqlas: is there any interest in ELF support? |
| 00:40.18 | miqlas | Sorry, i don't understand. |
| 00:40.28 | miqlas | Haiku have ELF binaries. |
| 00:40.28 | Ralith | linux binaries |
| 00:40.33 | Ralith | oo |
| 00:40.34 | brlcad | loves the old Be API call.. is_computer_on_fire(); |
| 00:40.38 | Ralith | haha |
| 00:40.39 | Ralith | wassat do |
| 00:40.43 | brlcad | and the other, is_computer_on(); |
| 00:40.49 | miqlas | BeOS have ELF binaries too. |
| 00:41.01 | Ralith | miqlas: cool! Is there Any interest in |
| 00:41.01 | miqlas | is_computer_on() is cool too. |
| 00:41.02 | Ralith | er |
| 00:41.11 | brlcad | it returns the temperature of the motherboard if the computer is on fire :) |
| 00:41.12 | Ralith | is there any interest in a linux ABI layer? |
| 00:41.13 | Ralith | a la freebsd |
| 00:41.20 | Ralith | brlcad: hehe ^^ |
| 00:41.23 | miqlas | What is ABI? |
| 00:41.27 | brlcad | the devs had a fantastic sense of humor |
| 00:41.32 | Ralith | awesome! |
| 00:41.32 | brlcad | application binary interface |
| 00:41.45 | Ralith | miqlas: basically, a layer that'd allow linux binaries to run directly. |
| 00:41.51 | Ralith | FreeBSD has one, and it's handy. |
| 00:42.01 | Ralith | it'd make it much easier for Haiku to pick up new apps., |
| 00:42.03 | brlcad | they're a ways away from that |
| 00:42.05 | Ralith | at least in binary form. |
| 00:42.08 | miqlas | Sorry, Ralith, but i'm not a developer, i can't say anything about it. Ask the Haiku dev-s on #haiku. |
| 00:42.08 | brlcad | it doesn't run X11 |
| 00:42.24 | Ralith | hm. |
| 00:42.26 | brlcad | so many apps would be useless to it anyways |
| 00:42.28 | miqlas | I think it is not a good idea. It will be a monster... |
| 00:42.28 | Ralith | it has its own display stuff, doesn't it? |
| 00:42.42 | brlcad | cept for command-line apps, which are generally easy to port regardless |
| 00:42.58 | brlcad | yeah, sort of like mac os x having a custom display system |
| 00:42.59 | Ralith | I guess a wrapper API might be feasible, but that's getting to be a wine-scale project. |
| 00:43.00 | miqlas | X11 is portable, and we have an old X11, but we don't like the apps, that require X11. |
| 00:43.10 | brlcad | yet being unixy under the hood |
| 00:43.29 | Ralith | miqlas: the problem is, as cool as haiku is, I can't see it ever being of more than academic interest :/ |
| 00:43.38 | Ralith | it's just so hard for an alternative OS to take off |
| 00:43.51 | Ralith | maybe in twenty years when everyone's using inherently portable code... |
| 00:43.52 | brlcad | nah, it's a pretty active project with a lot of momentum |
| 00:44.13 | brlcad | you don't hear about it much only because they're working towards that "first release" |
| 00:44.16 | Ralith | does that mean much, when it comes to wider acceptance, even in the long term? |
| 00:44.23 | miqlas | Ralith: , i know, this is why i want BRL-CAD for Haiku. |
| 00:44.33 | Ralith | miqlas: I suppose niche environments is a good place to start. |
| 00:44.42 | Ralith | make it 'the ultimate CAD platform' and you'd get users. |
| 00:45.15 | ``Erik | the fbsd linuxulator brings its own problem (mostly linux apps being ... well, wrong... improper ELF format, etc) |
| 00:45.24 | brlcad | Ralith: the philosophies of the operating system itself and the APIs make it very appealing to most developers |
| 00:45.33 | Ralith | ``Erik: it usually works, though. Even on big stuff. |
| 00:45.46 | ``Erik | after some fussing to unfuck the binaries, yeah |
| 00:46.04 | brlcad | beos had a pretty substantial developer following, and those devs are still around -- many will gladly jump back on board with the development environment is stable enough to work in |
| 00:46.06 | ``Erik | that i have to do "brandelf -t linux /some/binary" is bad |
| 00:46.11 | Ralith | brlcad: hm, I imagine that'd help, but, well... look at WinAPI vs. unix APIs. Quite a big margin, but windows won out originally, and it's taking ages to win back. |
| 00:46.23 | brlcad | until the 1.0 release, it's a bit of a time drain because you have to wade through other issues |
| 00:46.36 | miqlas | I don'tlike the Linux philosophy, for example there is ProE, but if You have wrong libc, You can't run, there is lot of branches, lot of distros, there is no unified thing. |
| 00:46.44 | Ralith | miqlas: yeah linux has lots of problems |
| 00:46.47 | Ralith | I'm not saying it's good. |
| 00:46.51 | Ralith | but it's successful. |
| 00:46.54 | Ralith | (and an improvement on windows) |
| 00:47.43 | ``Erik | "less bad than windows", aim for the stars, man ;) *duck* |
| 00:47.52 | brlcad | Ralith: it also depends how you determine "won out" .. if you're talking about massive > 50% popularity, sure -- in that regard unix was never really even a contender |
| 00:48.20 | brlcad | old mac os (before os x) was the only real contender, and be os for all of a year |
| 00:48.44 | brlcad | latter being arguable at that |
| 00:48.51 | Ralith | brlcad: well, I can't easily see a fourth unique OS easily making more than 1%. |
| 00:49.09 | ``Erik | you're gonna irk an amiga fan somewhere talkin' like that, brlcad :) |
| 00:49.14 | Ralith | lol |
| 00:49.21 | brlcad | good! |
| 00:49.29 | brlcad | people should be irk'd more about their OS |
| 00:49.46 | brlcad | they waste a lot of our time, more than many of the apps run on them |
| 00:50.29 | Ralith | heh |
| 00:50.44 | miqlas | Guys, what You think about CATIA V6? |
| 00:50.58 | Ralith | In Jan 31, 2009, Haiku obtained a native GCC4 port; this allows modern applications, like Firefox 3, to be built on Haiku. |
| 00:51.01 | Ralith | ooooh. |
| 00:51.02 | ``Erik | windows has set the bar awfully low :( it's not acceptable to have to pop the hood and fiddle with the engine every time you want to drive somewhere, or bust out the multimeter whenever you want to watch tv... but *shrug* |
| 00:51.14 | Ralith | ``Erik: I agree. |
| 00:51.17 | Ralith | but it's where we are. |
| 00:51.24 | brlcad | miqlas: about the same as what I think about a tree stump |
| 00:51.50 | miqlas | What You think about the tree stump? |
| 00:51.52 | brlcad | kind of an open-ended bait question :) |
| 00:51.58 | ``Erik | you... want to build a treehouse on catia? |
| 00:52.00 | brlcad | depends entirely what we're talking about |
| 00:52.23 | miqlas | BRL-CAD is parametric or not? |
| 00:52.42 | brlcad | no, parametric support is being worked on now |
| 00:52.48 | brlcad | ~seen madant |
| 00:52.50 | ibot | madant <n=d@117.196.133.180> was last seen on IRC in channel #brlcad, 2d 10h 21m 48s ago, saying: 'so not so much a of NEWs maybe.. '. |
| 00:52.54 | miqlas | Wow! I like the parametric modelling. |
| 00:52.56 | brlcad | by that guy |
| 00:53.42 | brlcad | this is his work planned for this summer: http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Homovulgaris |
| 00:53.53 | miqlas | Is tehere any kinematic solver in BRL-CAD? |
| 00:53.57 | brlcad | (low-level developer speak) |
| 00:54.05 | brlcad | there is a very very basic one |
| 00:54.47 | ``Erik | the joint constraint stuff? |
| 00:54.48 | brlcad | it's a basic forward-kinematic system |
| 00:54.50 | brlcad | yeah |
| 00:57.56 | miqlas | brlcad: thanks for the informations, an Guys thanks for the talk. But now here is 02:57. |
| 00:58.00 | miqlas | I need to sleep. |
| 00:58.03 | Ralith | seeya |
| 00:58.17 | brlcad | cya |
| 00:58.55 | miqlas | brlcad : morning i try to convert the assembly to step,and i send to You. |
| 00:59.24 | brlcad | okay, awesome |
| 00:59.27 | ``Erik | night, miqlas :) |
| 00:59.37 | miqlas | Night for everybody. |
| 01:00.55 | Ralith | damn, haiku looks really cool. |
| 01:01.01 | Ralith | wants to play with it now. |
| 01:01.02 | miqlas | ;D |
| 01:01.10 | Ralith | hmm. |
| 01:01.21 | Ralith | does anyone know if AMD ever made good on their promise to open their hardware docs? |
| 01:01.31 | Ralith | for the video cards |
| 01:01.36 | Ralith | for 3D accel |
| 01:02.08 | miqlas | Ralith: : http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/how_to_install_haiku_to_usb_flash_drive_from_windows |
| 01:02.47 | Ralith | miqlas: I'm not on windows :P |
| 01:02.50 | Ralith | unfortunately. |
| 01:03.24 | Ralith | is there a list of supported hardware out there anywhere? |
| 01:03.31 | ``Erik | grab qemu and set it up with something boring? :) |
| 01:03.45 | Ralith | hehe |
| 01:03.46 | miqlas | sudo dd if=haiku.image of=/dev/sda (SDx is a DEVICE, not a partition!!) |
| 01:03.50 | Ralith | that's not as fun as running it natively |
| 01:04.04 | *** join/#brlcad poolio (n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 01:04.05 | Ralith | miqlas: I'd rather not overwrite my system. |
| 01:04.29 | miqlas | Ralith : http://haikuware.com/hardware-database/ |
| 01:06.45 | miqlas | My Haiku desktop: http://mellbimbo.eu/view-d77595203e5fcf31336d52acff527378.html |
| 01:06.46 | ``Erik | huzzah, my ld is brokne |
| 01:06.53 | Ralith | miqlas: can it, theoretically, do 3D accel? |
| 01:07.02 | Ralith | assuming someone writes a driver |
| 01:07.19 | miqlas | There is software and hardware accelerated (Nvidia) OGL. |
| 01:07.37 | miqlas | Software powered by MESA. |
| 01:07.42 | Ralith | ...WHAT |
| 01:07.48 | Ralith | how did they pull that off |
| 01:08.01 | miqlas | Sorry, i don't understand. |
| 01:08.08 | Ralith | how did they get 3D accel on nvidia hw? |
| 01:08.18 | miqlas | It is a magic :) |
| 01:08.25 | Ralith | explainnnnn |
| 01:09.06 | miqlas | MESA software rendering attached to low level nvidia driver, |
| 01:09.12 | Ralith | no I mean |
| 01:09.16 | Ralith | how did they write an nvidia driver |
| 01:09.21 | Ralith | that's undocumented hw |
| 01:09.25 | brlcad | miqlas: heh, cute desktop |
| 01:09.28 | miqlas | Reverse engineering is the answer. |
| 01:09.36 | Ralith | that's some crazy reverse engineering |
| 01:09.42 | Ralith | how many cards does it support? |
| 01:10.23 | miqlas | Another desktop by me: http://mellbimbo.eu/view-f823600c444123689f6a1864e8e812bd.html (old!) |
| 01:10.38 | miqlas | Up to 8600Gt, if i know correctly. |
| 01:11.34 | Ralith | jesus |
| 01:11.40 | Ralith | both my laptop and my desktop would be supported! |
| 01:11.48 | Ralith | I'm totally installing this in dual-boot if I can work out how |
| 01:12.25 | miqlas | Ralith : http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source/xref/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/graphics/nvidia/driver.c <- supported cards. |
| 01:12.30 | Ralith | ty |
| 01:12.40 | Ralith | er |
| 01:12.41 | Ralith | AGP :| |
| 01:12.47 | Ralith | no PCIe? |
| 01:13.58 | brlcad | Ralith: keep in mind .. this is basically "pre-alpha" |
| 01:14.04 | Ralith | brlcad: I know |
| 01:14.18 | Ralith | I'm utterly amazed it has nvidia support |
| 01:14.40 | Ralith | just thinkign about how awesome it'd be to have full accel., |
| 01:14.42 | miqlas | I don't have PCIe, only AGP, but i tested my roomates's computer, it works with PCIe |
| 01:14.47 | Ralith | ooo |
| 01:14.54 | Ralith | :D |
| 01:15.19 | Ralith | any tips on rigging grub up for it? |
| 01:15.40 | miqlas | Ralith: , sorry i don't understand Yopu :( |
| 01:16.00 | Ralith | grub's a bootloader suitable for dualbooting |
| 01:16.24 | miqlas | Yes, but i never tested it with Haiku. I thin it require chainload setting. |
| 01:16.43 | Ralith | any docs you can point me at? |
| 01:16.51 | Ralith | I'm eager to try this, but not so much to make my system unbootable >_> |
| 01:17.07 | Ralith | though I suppose only so much can go wrong if I get the partition resizing right |
| 01:17.23 | miqlas | http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/installing_haiku_to_a_partition_from_linux |
| 01:17.48 | Ralith | perfect! |
| 01:17.49 | Ralith | thanks. |
| 01:18.13 | Ralith | now I just need to find some time to tweak my partition scheme. |
| 01:18.35 | miqlas | This tell, how to build, but You don't need build it, there is precompiled images on the net here: http://haiku-files.org/raw/ |
| 01:19.06 | Ralith | oo, nightlies |
| 01:19.30 | Ralith | brbs for food |
| 01:20.13 | miqlas | Nvidia informations: http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source/xref/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/graphics/nvidia/README.html |
| 01:20.42 | miqlas | last updated on June 10, 2008... |
| 01:20.49 | miqlas | Night, Guys! |
| 01:21.09 | miqlas | Ralith : be careful, don't make a brick from Your computer :) |
| 01:29.44 | *** join/#brlcad LarsG (n=lars@nusnet-216-60.dynip.nus.edu.sg) |
| 01:34.20 | yukonbob | hello, cadheads |
| 01:45.17 | Ralith | miqlas: so long as it doesn't scramble my nvram or something. |
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| 04:26.03 | starseeker | Ralith: one thing to remember about Haiku - if Gtk/Qt are ported to it cleanly, that gives you a LOT of the better open source programs almost for free. |
| 04:26.23 | Ralith | true. |
| 04:26.34 | starseeker | the difficulty with one "free" OS taking on another is usually the "user experience" is the same |
| 04:26.46 | starseeker | e.g. Gnome/KDE/Windowmaker/etc. on top of X |
| 04:26.53 | Ralith | not so, here. |
| 04:27.07 | starseeker | mm? |
| 04:27.23 | Ralith | er, haiku doesn't use those. |
| 04:27.27 | starseeker | right |
| 04:27.28 | Ralith | unless I'm drastically misled. |
| 04:27.39 | Ralith | plus there's the whole instaboot thing |
| 04:27.45 | starseeker | that's the key - it is potentially a radical improvment in desktop experience |
| 04:27.57 | Ralith | yeah, I think it's really got my attention. |
| 04:28.12 | Ralith | looks like it, infact, does *not* have 3D accel anywhere yet, though. |
| 04:28.26 | Ralith | no surprise, but it'd've been neat |
| 04:28.37 | starseeker | X plus $KERNEL "feels" the same - BeOS gui + massive multithreading is better :-) |
| 04:28.37 | starseeker | ah, right |
| 04:28.47 | starseeker | would not expect 3D accel yet |
| 04:29.19 | starseeker | even on Linux that only works "well" with nvidia drivers |
| 04:29.23 | Ralith | indeed. |
| 04:29.31 | Ralith | though I imagine it won't be long till the AMD docs are implemented. |
| 04:29.38 | starseeker | grins |
| 04:29.40 | Ralith | ? |
| 04:29.46 | starseeker | that will be AWESOME |
| 04:29.54 | Ralith | er, why? |
| 04:29.59 | Ralith | I mean, more hardware support is good and all... |
| 04:30.08 | starseeker | will make his next graphics card purchase an AMD card if they do have proper open drivers |
| 04:30.20 | Ralith | I suppose it is a pretty big first. |
| 04:30.27 | Ralith | it looks like there's an effort to port gallium3d to haiku |
| 04:30.38 | Ralith | so I'm hoping that someone'll port the AMD drivers to that, once they exist |
| 04:30.45 | Ralith | and then the haiku devs won't have to do anything else |
| 04:30.52 | Ralith | they seem to be taking a very pragmatic attitude to hardware support |
| 04:31.01 | starseeker | oh, I should think that'll be a logical (in fact, THE logical) target |
| 04:31.24 | starseeker | the only other candidate is probably opengraphics, if they ever get off the ground |
| 04:31.25 | Ralith | ported OSS for sound, wrapping FreeBSD drivers for wifi and networking... |
| 04:32.06 | Ralith | starseeker: that's their own hardware, isn't it? |
| 04:32.15 | starseeker | which, opengraphics? |
| 04:32.17 | Ralith | yeah |
| 04:32.48 | starseeker | that's these guys: http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php |
| 04:32.55 | Ralith | yeah, I'm looking |
| 04:32.59 | Ralith | looks like hardware to me |
| 04:33.03 | starseeker | yep |
| 04:33.18 | Ralith | that'd be neat but, well, I doubt it'll compare to the big two's products. |
| 04:33.26 | starseeker | won't be up to latest AMD/NVIDIA specs, but a truly open and well supported driver would be Very Nice |
| 04:33.35 | Ralith | indeed. |
| 04:33.43 | Ralith | but only for a subset of uses. |
| 04:33.43 | starseeker | particularly with regards to stability |
| 04:33.47 | starseeker | sure. |
| 04:33.56 | starseeker | but that subset probably includes most desktop level effects |
| 04:34.01 | Ralith | true, true |
| 04:34.03 | starseeker | ala enlightenment bling |
| 04:34.09 | Ralith | enlightenment runs in software :P |
| 04:34.16 | starseeker | for now :-) |
| 04:34.16 | Ralith | at least, last time I checked. |
| 04:34.30 | Ralith | but yes, bling is good. |
| 04:34.32 | starseeker | iirc, he claims to get better performance that way because linux 3d support sucks so bad |
| 04:34.40 | Ralith | heh |
| 04:34.44 | Ralith | actually |
| 04:34.46 | Ralith | I talked with a dev about it |
| 04:34.51 | Ralith | it's not cuz linux 3d support sucks, iirc |
| 04:34.58 | starseeker | oh really? |
| 04:34.59 | Ralith | it's cuz running multiple OpenGL contexts in parallel sucks I think? |
| 04:35.03 | starseeker | ah |
| 04:35.20 | Ralith | cuz all hardware is designed on the assumption that there's only one |
| 04:35.23 | Ralith | even though that's not spec |
| 04:35.46 | starseeker | enter opengraphics - where you can fix the design yourself :-) |
| 04:36.15 | starseeker | has a hope that a working opengraphics design might be (eventually) compressed to be a sort of default "on motherboard" option |
| 04:36.34 | starseeker | vga on steroids or some such |
| 04:36.54 | starseeker | then you can add in the big bad commercial boys for heavy duty 3D accel |
| 04:37.56 | starseeker | interesting statement here: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/help-the-open-graphics-project |
| 04:38.05 | starseeker | has also had thoughts about "fully open" computers |
| 04:39.46 | starseeker | heh - someone should design a computer case as an open cad model |
| 04:40.52 | Ralith | that wouldn't be hard |
| 04:40.59 | starseeker | well, a good one would take some work |
| 04:41.00 | Ralith | especially if you didn't mind how it looked |
| 04:41.09 | starseeker | it must look awesome :-) |
| 04:41.14 | Ralith | aw. |
| 04:41.57 | starseeker | call it... OpenCase ;-) |
| 04:43.44 | starseeker | then you could use an OpenSparc cpu - make an "OpenSparc Inside" sticker :-P |
| 04:44.05 | starseeker | wonders if anyone manufactures those, come to think of it |
| 04:48.29 | starseeker | via has the OpenBook model, but that's for a laptop |
| 04:48.35 | starseeker | also need a desktop |
| 04:50.54 | Ralith | still, pretty good start. |
| 04:51.28 | starseeker | it is |
| 04:51.35 | starseeker | a LOT of pieces needed though |
| 04:51.39 | Ralith | especially considering the corporate backing. |
| 04:51.47 | Ralith | true, but we seem to be on the way... |
| 04:51.59 | starseeker | for a truly open motherboard, for example, would need... |
| 04:52.09 | starseeker | open RAM chips |
| 04:52.16 | starseeker | open CPU socket design |
| 04:52.24 | Ralith | open ICs in general seems like it'd be kind of hard :/ |
| 04:52.47 | Ralith | unless a cascade of openness sweeps across the hardware industry |
| 04:53.51 | starseeker | well you would need at least one of every key part of the system |
| 04:53.59 | starseeker | openhardware has some |
| 04:55.18 | starseeker | even if you had all the designs, the trick would be getting the parts made |
| 04:55.25 | starseeker | the up front costs are huge |
| 04:56.30 | starseeker | maybe someday though - there are still some really good hardware hackers lurking out there |
| 04:56.35 | Ralith | yeah, which is why I don't see it happening unless someone talks the corporations into it. |
| 04:56.39 | starseeker | nods |
| 04:56.44 | Ralith | but that's been done before. |
| 04:56.47 | Ralith | many times. |
| 04:56.56 | Ralith | albeit not inhardware, most cases. |
| 04:56.59 | Ralith | but hey, then there's via! |
| 04:57.31 | starseeker | it would probably need to be someone who needed the component for some non-traditional purpose and was willing to do an open design to get it cheap |
| 04:58.20 | starseeker | if the Haiku guys can eventually get the old BeOS performance on low(er) end hardware, it might help to make a truly open computer viable |
| 04:58.35 | Ralith | any old BeOS devs working on the project? |
| 05:00.31 | starseeker | dunno |
| 05:01.19 | starseeker | one idea I'm sorry no one put forward before Oracle bought Sun was to suggest Sun expand its open hardware program to include entire older generation PC specifications |
| 05:01.33 | starseeker | Ralith: probably old BeOS devs would have IP issues |
| 05:02.25 | Ralith | the people who might care are still around? |
| 05:02.43 | starseeker | you mean BeOS devs? |
| 05:02.55 | starseeker | or you mean Oracle/Sun? |
| 05:03.04 | Ralith | BeOS |
| 05:03.15 | Ralith | of course the people who care about open hardware are around :P |
| 05:03.37 | starseeker | sure - but I'm guessing Sun would have been more willing to entertain the idea before they got bought |
| 05:04.03 | starseeker | I'd imagine there are some of the old BeOS devs floating around, but I don't really know |
| 05:04.14 | starseeker | eeek. OK, must sleep now |
| 05:05.37 | Ralith | kk, night |
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| 08:33.54 | miqlas | brlcad : are You here? |
| 08:40.45 | Ralith | miqlas: that driver you linked me was for 2d -_- |
| 08:41.17 | miqlas | Ralith, if You check the readme, it tells there is basic 3d support for some older videocard. |
| 08:41.31 | Ralith | miqlas: 'basic 3d support for some older videocard' is not 3D accel. |
| 08:41.42 | miqlas | "Basic 3D acceleration for older cards: see the seperately available 3D accelerant's documentation for details;" |
| 08:42.02 | Ralith | also, not only is that a 2d driver, it's an unmaintained one which stopped working some time ago, according to #haiku. |
| 08:42.21 | Ralith | as part of the move to Mesa 7 |
| 08:42.32 | Ralith | which does support acceleration, but has no implementations of it. |
| 08:42.36 | miqlas | Sorry, i can't know everything :) |
| 08:42.49 | Ralith | 'k |
| 08:43.05 | Ralith | nevertheless, cool looking OS. |
| 08:43.18 | miqlas | But it give bigger score in OGLTeapot :) |
| 08:48.29 | Ralith | sleeps |
| 08:51.29 | miqlas | what is the good word for an technican draw? It is good for assembly? Sorry, the english is not my native language.. |
| 08:56.28 | Ralith | miqlas: diagram? blueprint? People just say 'technical drawing' most of the time, I think. |
| 08:57.24 | miqlas | This is a 3d cad assembly. The "CAD assembly" good for this? |
| 08:57.55 | miqlas | And i need change the MIT license text? (software -> CAD assembly)? |
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| 08:59.07 | Ralith | If in legal text, I'd refer to it with more encompassing terms, e.g. 'CAD file' |
| 08:59.22 | Ralith | and the MIT license may be best left alone, but for a definitive answer wait for brlcad |
| 08:59.29 | Ralith | (i.e. used as-is) |
| 08:59.37 | Ralith | (but I'm sure it can wait a few hours for him to show) |
| 09:00.59 | miqlas | Okay. |
| 09:01.05 | miqlas | I need to go now. |
| 09:01.06 | miqlas | Bye! |
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| 09:24.40 | mafm_ | hi there |
| 09:45.39 | pacman87 | morning, mafm |
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| 10:32.18 | d-lo | Mornin all! |
| 10:43.35 | mafm | mernin |
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| 14:27.41 | starseeker | took a stab at Haiku + vmplayer, but must wait due to needing to play with kernel modules |
| 14:31.18 | ``Erik | http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/?p=234 |
| 14:31.31 | brlcad | yep, just finished reading it :) |
| 14:32.13 | *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 14:32.19 | brlcad | howdy hippieindamakin8 |
| 14:33.08 | ``Erik | the different perspective and explicit pointing out of correlations and implications may help some people *shrug* :) I figured it may be valuable for some folk to read |
| 14:34.47 | brlcad | yeah, few key sentences in there |
| 14:34.56 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34304 10/brlcad/trunk/src/conv/: ignore prodigal binaries |
| 14:36.23 | hippieindamakin8 | hey brlcad :) |
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| 15:02.42 | ``Erik | *headache* why won't people just fucking let waterfall die |
| 15:03.30 | _clock_ | didaktik je vsudypritomny |
| 15:11.18 | brlcad | hippieindamakin8: question about your patch -- did you test that on anything? |
| 15:24.49 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.145.3) |
| 15:31.44 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves (n=c752f347@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:54.41 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad, not on a test object,just checked for compilation errors. planned on doing it post endsemester exams |
| 15:54.50 | brlcad | ah, okay |
| 15:55.39 | hippieindamakin8 | i ll get back to u on 30th after testing it . sorry for not doing that |
| 15:56.03 | brlcad | it's okay |
| 15:56.32 | brlcad | i was just looking at myself, and didn't look like it'd compile |
| 15:56.44 | hippieindamakin8 | thanks |
| 15:59.19 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad, is it ? |
| 16:01.08 | hippieindamakin8 | i ll just verify everything and get back to you then. with the results |
| 16:03.41 | madant | hippieindamakin8: 30th is the D-day ? getting out of iit finally ;) ? |
| 16:03.57 | hippieindamakin8 | madant, no :) |
| 16:04.08 | hippieindamakin8 | i dropped a course just before the endsems |
| 16:04.24 | madant | damn, what do you have to do then ? |
| 16:04.30 | hippieindamakin8 | it is better to drop it rather than flunk it. so i ll do it next semester |
| 16:05.02 | madant | yikes, so you have to stay a semester for a course :O ? |
| 16:05.12 | madant | you were dead sure you were going to flunk it :O ? |
| 16:05.43 | hippieindamakin8 | madant, yeah the prof the last time when he took the course gave an F at the average score. |
| 16:06.13 | madant | thinks psycho profs are the bane of good education :D |
| 16:10.35 | hippieindamakin8 | madant, its the other way round. they dont want people to fiddle around with the real world stuff with this average knowledge |
| 16:11.33 | madant | never had that bad or good profs :) |
| 16:12.21 | madant | brlcad, though art my mentor :) and elena goes to d-lo ? |
| 16:12.41 | madant | oops i meant thou art my mentor .. :D |
| 16:13.59 | hippieindamakin8 | is compiling the package again |
| 16:16.41 | brlcad | madant: for logistics tracking, yeah |
| 16:17.27 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 16:17.38 | brlcad | hippieindamakin8: yeah, BU_PTBL_INS doesn't look right |
| 16:18.09 | madant | brlcad: awesome :) i'll get my act together immediately |
| 16:19.44 | hippieindamakin8 | it is of the type int , but in this file tankill-g.c it has been used this way: /* save the face in a table */ |
| 16:19.44 | hippieindamakin8 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:21.21 | brlcad | well, it's going to crash -- you never initialize the nmg_vertices (or any of th bu_ptbl's) |
| 16:22.29 | brlcad | similarly, you don't allocate or initialize the struct vertex |
| 16:23.13 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad, oops i ll just correct the code and send it to you |
| 16:23.25 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad, just discard it for now. |
| 16:23.43 | brlcad | okay |
| 16:23.47 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34305 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_misc.c: ws, indent, style consistency cleanup |
| 16:23.49 | brlcad | otherwise, it looks like you were going down the right track I think |
| 16:24.41 | hippieindamakin8 | yeah i was in a hurry not to care abt the memory issues. i ll just add them up. and submit the patch agaon |
| 16:26.05 | brlcad | hippieindamakin8: there's an old junk routine that does almost exactly what that routine needs to do |
| 16:26.16 | brlcad | though it reads from a file iirc |
| 16:26.26 | brlcad | yeah... nmg_polytonmg() |
| 16:26.31 | brlcad | in nmg_junk.c |
| 16:26.48 | *** join/#brlcad miqlas (n=Miranda@193.225.63.8) |
| 16:26.51 | brlcad | there you can see the GET_VERTEX allocation and setting the magic to init it |
| 16:26.59 | miqlas | Hello brlcad! |
| 16:27.03 | miqlas | Do You got the mail? |
| 16:27.04 | hippieindamakin8 | aah i have taken the observations/procedure from ascii to nmg.c |
| 16:27.07 | brlcad | howdy miqlas ! |
| 16:27.08 | brlcad | yeah, I got it |
| 16:27.16 | brlcad | fantabulous |
| 16:27.19 | miqlas | Can BRL-CAD open it? |
| 16:27.31 | hippieindamakin8 | i ll check nmg_junk.c |
| 16:27.40 | miqlas | Please, send me a screenshoot about it, if You can... |
| 16:27.42 | brlcad | heh, not as a step file .. that's the converter presently being implemented :) |
| 16:27.52 | brlcad | but I can' go through another path and import it to show you |
| 16:28.35 | miqlas | I can provide .iges and .stl file too. |
| 16:28.51 | brlcad | that would be awesome |
| 16:28.56 | brlcad | save me some time |
| 16:29.13 | miqlas | Do You need the .stl and .iges file? |
| 16:29.30 | brlcad | yeah, both would be great |
| 16:29.44 | brlcad | we have importers for those to already |
| 16:30.38 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad , right. it is mostly what i need. |
| 16:30.47 | miqlas | it is cca. 40 mb... |
| 16:31.16 | brlcad | miqlas: can upload via ftp to brlcad.org/incoming |
| 16:31.32 | miqlas | okay. i try... |
| 16:31.48 | miqlas | i'm compressing wit rar, it is ok for You? |
| 16:32.02 | miqlas | No it is only 4 mb :) |
| 16:32.09 | brlcad | that's fine |
| 16:32.17 | miqlas | 40 Mb->4 Mb. Good... :) |
| 16:34.56 | miqlas | upload finished. |
| 16:35.09 | miqlas | please, check the archive.. |
| 16:35.50 | miqlas | Can i ask, the USa military use the BRL-CAD yet? |
| 16:36.03 | brlcad | okay, will check |
| 16:36.07 | brlcad | yeah, for more than 20 years |
| 16:36.11 | brlcad | actively using it |
| 16:36.21 | miqlas | Okay. Thanks. |
| 16:36.49 | miqlas | brlcad, did You checked the license text? it is good? |
| 16:37.41 | brlcad | looked good to me |
| 16:38.42 | hippieindamakin8 | brlcad, madant : see you soon |
| 16:39.03 | hippieindamakin8 | gets back to studying taking note of what he has to correct in the patch. |
| 16:40.20 | brlcad | starseeker: you should have access on the site now |
| 16:40.35 | brlcad | created a new core contributor role that should give nearly complete access |
| 16:40.59 | brlcad | you basically create a new story and promote it to the main page |
| 16:41.29 | brlcad | feel free to fix the captcha when you notice the bug.. :) |
| 16:48.51 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34306 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: major cleanup upon remembering nmg_polytonmg() in the junk file. possible approach for a bot-to-nmg routine. while we're in here, clean up the ws/style and rip out all the dead code for heaps and groups. |
| 16:49.46 | starseeker | brlcad: cool! thanks |
| 16:54.15 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34307 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: add missing headers so the file will actually compile, make all of the routines static just so someone doesn't try to use them, and add a big freaking warning about the routines not being vetted for use yet. |
| 16:55.42 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34308 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: de-knrify |
| 16:56.56 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34309 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/Makefile.am: |
| 16:56.56 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: enable compilation of the nmg_junk.c source file so that the source can stay in |
| 16:56.56 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: sync with the API. all routines in there are static, so strictly speaking |
| 16:56.56 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: compiling the file isn't necessary, but it will help the sources stay updated. |
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| 17:14.14 | d-lo | go go gadget brlcad. |
| 17:21.30 | brlcad | hehe, fantastic.. http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42154-181.html |
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| 17:21.53 | brlcad | hello joe |
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| 19:19.40 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34310 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 19:19.40 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: topic came up again today, expand on the need for a 3d plot object primitive. |
| 19:19.40 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: ideally/probably needs to support points, lines, polylines, arcs, circles, |
| 19:19.40 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: spline curves, and text. the _plot() callbacks should then return a plot object |
| 19:19.40 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: instead of the current vlist/polyline data that it returns. all sorts of |
| 19:19.43 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: implications and benefits including automatic wireframe LoD and optimized |
| 19:19.45 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: representation. |
| 19:22.48 | ``Erik | wonders if there's too much duplication in brlcads notional outline... isn't a circle just an arc that goes all the way around? isn't an arc a case of spline? isn't a line a case of spline? isn't a polyline a set of lines? O.o |
| 19:23.43 | brlcad | yes, mathematically tis true -- but from a modeling and capturing intent perspective, the subclasses are useful to record (and it's much less data) |
| 19:24.11 | brlcad | it's also pretty much the standard set of specific entities supported by drafting systems |
| 19:24.45 | ``Erik | hm, but should it be explicitely broken out into seperate entities, or should, say, 'gimmealine()' create a spline that just happsnt o have 0 length control vectors at each endpoint? |
| 19:24.55 | ``Erik | happens to |
| 19:25.08 | ``Erik | is the memory savings worth the added complexity? |
| 19:25.42 | brlcad | you have to have the complexity anyways for the N types, it's rather minimal |
| 19:26.05 | brlcad | not like they have ray-tracing hooks, for example |
| 19:26.15 | brlcad | and if we import from another system, it's a faithful import |
| 19:26.23 | ``Erik | *shrug* I'm just jabbering to try to sound smart :) something that might be worth considering if it hasn't been |
| 19:27.24 | ``Erik | being able to send that kinda info to the raytracer might be useful once we start adding drafting capabilities |
| 19:28.50 | ``Erik | (mebbe as a post-frame overlay) |
| 19:32.29 | brlcad | another possibility would be to have each object be its own object in the db, given them all their own non-geometry entity code ala iges/step/dxf .. but that really goes down a road I'm not keen on |
| 19:33.08 | brlcad | hm.. http://www.plasticproto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=34&lang=en |
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| 19:37.57 | brlcad | also interesting.. http://www.harmonyware.com/step_supported.html |
| 19:38.57 | brlcad | basically a subset of that list, the 3D non-surface/non-solid/non-reference entities |
| 19:46.42 | ``Erik | hehehe "yak shaving" I like that :D |
| 20:02.24 | brlcad | another option altogether is for _plot() to go away and _brep() take its place |
| 20:05.46 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34311 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: few more entities (thx collada) |
| 20:23.53 | ``Erik | huh http://smacklet.com/ |
| 21:03.43 | archivist | have you left that page up for a complete period ``Erik :) |
| 21:03.55 | ``Erik | yeah heh |
| 21:04.00 | ``Erik | I had "drink coffee" on mine |
| 21:04.01 | ``Erik | :D |
| 21:04.33 | archivist | I had a step back from what you are doing (i put nothing) |
| 21:08.46 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34312 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: quell symbol error, nmg_isect_edge3p_shell doesn't exist |
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