| 00:00.32 | brlcad | damn |
| 00:02.37 | ``Erik | ? |
| 00:02.43 | brlcad | dreeves_: finally got to cleaning up the patch and testing the extrude enhancement .. bug it fails to render on my first attempt, will check it more tomorrow to see if my merge wasn't clean but looks like maybe some logic breakage (getting random behavior from 3/odd hits to crashes to alloc failures) |
| 00:03.11 | ``Erik | hm |
| 00:03.52 | brlcad | unfortunately, it's really hard to tell -- it's a bad patch with so many ws changes merged in at the same time |
| 00:04.14 | ``Erik | feh, ask him to fix that and resubmit |
| 00:04.26 | brlcad | (for future ref., should rarely ever change formatting/ws/style in a patch unless *that* is the patch) |
| 00:04.30 | ``Erik | :%s/[ \t]+$// |
| 00:04.34 | brlcad | that was the fixed :) |
| 00:04.40 | brlcad | needs more fixing |
| 00:05.17 | ``Erik | both the emacs and vi/ex fu is in the standard footer, it takes a bit of work to screw up formatting |
| 00:05.51 | brlcad | indentation was fine |
| 00:06.00 | brlcad | that's mostly what the footer enforces |
| 00:06.44 | brlcad | spaces within parens, one-liners vs breaking things up onto multiple lines, brace placement, .. those were things changed (mostly for the better, but still makes the patch unreadable) |
| 00:07.07 | ``Erik | *shrug* learning how to submit to a project "wrong" style is part of maturing as a developer, learning to know what the diff is before commit is another part |
| 00:07.13 | ``Erik | bounce it on him and let him learn :) |
| 00:07.19 | brlcad | i just did |
| 00:07.22 | brlcad | :P |
| 00:08.34 | brlcad | mm, okay really time now, seeing if that worked was last 'todo' for the day |
| 00:51.29 | ``Erik | I was wrong, it's the command window that has the status bar, not the display window |
| 01:22.23 | brlcad | ah yeah |
| 01:22.52 | brlcad | it's status is done through plot |
| 01:24.49 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34463 10/brlcad/trunk/src/conv/Makefile.am: patch-g.1 and rpatch.1 are missing from the install and dist |
| 01:30.50 | starseeker | ``Erik: you got Lisp in Small Pieces???? |
| 01:30.54 | starseeker | is jealous |
| 01:31.23 | ``Erik | heh, yup |
| 01:31.29 | ``Erik | $90 or so at amazon |
| 01:31.55 | ``Erik | I've talked to peter enough that I'm sure I could get PCL signed, but getting lisp in small pieces signed would be gnarley O.o |
| 01:32.28 | ``Erik | (I actually put the order in after getting fitshaced and talking to peter in private for a bit heh) |
| 01:33.14 | starseeker | has PCL, but hasn't been able to face the $90 price tag of Lisp in Small Pieces |
| 01:33.15 | ``Erik | I made a comment about lisp1 vs lisp2 on my "blog" and xach said that lisp in small pieces would answer my queries |
| 01:33.52 | ``Erik | amusingly, the $50 book is hardback, the $90 is softback |
| 01:34.08 | starseeker | $50 for a hardback???? where???? |
| 01:34.15 | ``Erik | amazon, pcl |
| 01:34.22 | starseeker | oh, PCL |
| 01:34.44 | ``Erik | I asked him how I could get the most money in his pocket, he said amazon *shrug* |
| 01:34.50 | starseeker | nods |
| 01:35.12 | starseeker | yeah, PCL is in some ways the accumulated wisdom you would get by a LOT of reading of the #lisp irc logs |
| 01:35.26 | starseeker | tends to make it extremely useful |
| 01:35.48 | ``Erik | it helped me a lot reading it at gigamonkeys.net, I figured I should stand up and help the community by 'donating' the $'s to buy it |
| 01:36.18 | starseeker | could you bring in your Lisp in Small Pieces for a day? That's the closest thing out there to a literate lisp implementation, and I've been really curious to get a look at it |
| 01:36.39 | ``Erik | sure |
| 01:36.44 | ``Erik | the ToC is jizzgasmic |
| 01:37.38 | ``Erik | chapter 1 is how to implement a basic interpreter |
| 01:37.43 | brlcad | you three need a room for the night? :) |
| 01:38.02 | ``Erik | chapter 2 goes into the lisp1/lisp2 debate, 3 is continuations |
| 01:38.21 | ``Erik | brlcad: this book is to programming what your car is to daily drivers |
| 01:38.38 | brlcad | mmhmm |
| 01:38.54 | starseeker | brlcad: sorry, didn't mean to wander offtopic |
| 01:39.03 | brlcad | heh |
| 01:39.16 | brlcad | smacks starseeker with the clue-by-four jokestick |
| 01:39.21 | starseeker | ah :-) |
| 01:39.32 | starseeker | was up at 4am, brain not functional anymore |
| 01:39.34 | ``Erik | I haven't dug in, but this thing really seems to but the dragon book to shame |
| 01:40.04 | starseeker | If I were to actually start writing a literate lisp implementation, that book would be purhase item #1 |
| 01:41.00 | starseeker | probably followed by the ANSI Lisp spec in physical form, if I can get away with the $$ (NOT cheap...) |
| 01:41.26 | ``Erik | a lot of recent rumblings about updating the ansi spec |
| 01:41.48 | ``Erik | but some greybeards are poopooing the id |
| 01:41.50 | ``Erik | idea |
| 01:42.24 | starseeker | again? where'd that pop up? |
| 01:42.43 | ``Erik | some blogs and irc convo, uh, does "pcos" ring a bell? |
| 01:42.54 | starseeker | irc handle? |
| 01:43.47 | ``Erik | no clue, it was a reference to a uunet or blog post |
| 01:43.47 | starseeker | hmm |
| 01:43.47 | starseeker | will dig in a sec... |
| 01:43.55 | ``Erik | I think I'm remembering it right... was spoken in the same reverence as "rms" "jkh" |
| 01:44.33 | ``Erik | yet another rumbling about updating the spec *shrug* |
| 01:46.57 | starseeker | I collected a lot of info about spec issues some time ago: http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/Project_FreeSpec |
| 01:47.13 | starseeker | was on the alu.org wiki, but I think that's gone now |
| 01:48.14 | starseeker | oh, I'll bet pcos = Pascal Costanza |
| 01:48.17 | brlcad | sips a recently acquired delightful 21-year |
| 01:49.27 | ``Erik | holds his tumbler out and waits for brlcad to share |
| 01:49.35 | starseeker | basically, the objection to updating the ANSI spec is that the group who's job it is to do that is below minimal strength to do anything, and getting it up to strength would involve people coughing up $$ for membership |
| 01:50.35 | ``Erik | pascal sounds familiar |
| 01:52.03 | starseeker | more annoyingly, the copyright on the spec document itself is so hopelessly muddled that there is no hope of an "unofficial" update that would be invulnerable to copyright lawsuits |
| 01:52.13 | ``Erik | if the committee cannot get enough paying membership to make a decision, maybe the committee should rethink the buy-in amount or their charter |
| 01:52.25 | starseeker | and the commercial vendors MIGHT have an interest in torpedoing such an effort |
| 01:52.39 | ``Erik | I mean, this sounds lik ea classic "failboat" situation |
| 01:53.01 | starseeker | apparently the original spec process was rather... intense, according to some of the chatter I've heard from those who were there |
| 01:53.18 | starseeker | I don't think they have the discretionary power to do that |
| 01:53.21 | ``Erik | does the next CL have to be ansi, even? |
| 01:53.39 | starseeker | not really - sbcl is fast becoming a "de-facto" standard |
| 01:54.24 | brlcad | starseeker: so join the group and help update the spec .. how much is that fee? :) |
| 01:54.31 | starseeker | checks... |
| 01:54.55 | ``Erik | just 2 years salary? :D |
| 01:56.13 | starseeker | erm... the J13 page is gone |
| 02:01.59 | starseeker | humph - moved it http://www.incits.org/tc_home/Old%20TC%20Stuff/j13.htm |
| 02:04.03 | starseeker | ah ha http://www.incits.org/membership/meminfo.htm |
| 02:05.11 | starseeker | so at least $8k-$9.5k, unless I can get myself declared an academic institution |
| 02:06.58 | starseeker | and convince a few more people to pony up fees - I doubt any of them have bothered to cough up now that nothing is happening |
| 02:12.11 | brlcad | could always one-up it and start an ISO spec effort |
| 02:12.20 | starseeker | nods |
| 02:12.44 | starseeker | yeah, a restart would have to be the way to go |
| 02:12.58 | brlcad | would probably have even better adoption, and while more complicated and longer process, much more likely to gain momentum |
| 02:16.20 | starseeker | Actually, there IS an ISO Lisp of sorts... http://christian.jullien.free.fr/pd-islisp21.pdf.zip |
| 02:16.59 | starseeker | I remember looking at this because they actually did explicitly public domain their spec document - problem is, IIRC, it is a small subset of the functionality of Common Lisp |
| 02:17.56 | starseeker | er, here actually http://islisp.info/specification.html |
| 02:18.32 | brlcad | looks like it's gone through several revisions though, could be a great place to start |
| 02:20.49 | starseeker | it probably would be - it is certainly worth starting with |
| 02:21.01 | starseeker | for creating a new document |
| 02:21.27 | starseeker | I doubt they want to match the functionality of common lisp though - many consider that a rather... bloated spec |
| 02:21.31 | brlcad | always saw all the bickering over (relatively insignificant) differences in the various lisp implementations to be one of its biggest failings |
| 02:21.39 | starseeker | which is rather more ironic when you consider they lack things like GUI and threads |
| 02:21.43 | brlcad | smalltalk had/has nearly the same problem |
| 02:21.57 | starseeker | nods |
| 02:22.16 | starseeker | yeah, it tends to attract people for whom the language is an end, not a means |
| 02:22.55 | starseeker | I still think if they had successfully implemented a useful, universal GUI layer early enough they would have become what Java is now |
| 02:23.11 | brlcad | like a linux distro, it more just needs a champion that is willing to dedicate to being a leader through sustained advocacy and significant use |
| 02:23.33 | madant | runs scared at the mention of Java.. boogie monster.. |
| 02:25.01 | ``Erik | no |
| 02:25.23 | ``Erik | java didn't succeed from having a gui layer... it had an 8.5 ton marketing guerilla behind it |
| 02:25.41 | brlcad | starseeker: actually the same reason that you're stearing clear of islisp assuming they wouldn't consider features included in common lisp (and seeing it as a subset as being a problem in itself) means it's probably already fairly doomed as a 'new' fork |
| 02:25.49 | brlcad | I meant contributing to them to extend |
| 02:26.02 | starseeker | 's approach would be to take the ISLISP spec and sbcl (plus probably Sacla http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/index-en.html) and start crafting something as clean and elegent as possible from the ground up.. |
| 02:26.22 | brlcad | forks almost always fail, from scratch fails with a couple more significant digits of certainty ;) |
| 02:26.25 | starseeker | brlcad: yeah, that's true |
| 02:26.30 | ``Erik | the common subset of sbcl and clozure is probably a good starting point |
| 02:27.16 | starseeker | brlcad: if I were to tackle it, the idea would be to build off of something like the VLISP research |
| 02:28.04 | starseeker | ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/wand/vlisp/ |
| 02:28.47 | starseeker | "just another lisp" wouldn't work |
| 02:29.37 | ``Erik | one of the oft flaunted "advantages" of common lisp is that it's a stnadard, not an implementation, though... |
| 02:29.57 | starseeker | yes - you create a standard and an implementation together |
| 02:30.05 | starseeker | hence the literate approach |
| 02:30.15 | brlcad | you'd probably have better luck just trying to create an 'iso scheme' |
| 02:30.45 | ``Erik | python has several implementations, but the only successful ones are very niche oriented :( |
| 02:30.48 | brlcad | or extending islisp |
| 02:31.25 | starseeker | brlcad: true. The only way I would see a new effort as being better than building off of sbcl as is though is to have a "verified" lisp |
| 02:31.35 | starseeker | which would have to be a ground up effort by definition |
| 02:31.37 | ``Erik | other than the primary one... which kinda says to me that doing an implementation and standard together ... is no better than just doing the implementation |
| 02:31.44 | ``Erik | you surrender the 'standard' aspect |
| 02:31.51 | ``Erik | know what I mean, vern? |
| 02:32.29 | starseeker | true - but without at least one implementation, a spec is just paper |
| 02:32.44 | starseeker | and for a verified implementation, it would be a LOT of work to do even one correctly |
| 02:33.19 | ``Erik | well, C is a standard that has implementations... java is an implementation that claims a standard... |
| 02:33.34 | brlcad | starseeker: heh, that would probably matter to .. a couple dozen people? :) .. I just don't see that gaining momentum outside of being an academic project |
| 02:33.48 | ``Erik | the ebb and flow of the two are pretty distinct |
| 02:33.54 | starseeker | brlcad: agreed :-). It would matter in the mathematical field only |
| 02:34.08 | starseeker | as a foundation for a verified Computer Algebra System |
| 02:34.35 | ``Erik | yeah, it's too bad that computer algebra systems just don't matter :D *Duck* *run* *flee* *hide* |
| 02:34.35 | starseeker | the CAS might matter to more people, but you can't build a house with no foundation |
| 02:34.36 | brlcad | so what's "wrong" with CL? what's the actual problem being solved? |
| 02:34.45 | brlcad | as that is an ansi standard already |
| 02:35.00 | ``Erik | modern computing assumes things that CL doens't acknowledge |
| 02:35.03 | starseeker | no standard thread support, and no standard ffi mechanism are the biggies |
| 02:35.05 | ``Erik | like network programming |
| 02:35.08 | ``Erik | threading, etc |
| 02:35.19 | ``Erik | it's state of the art for '85.... |
| 02:35.53 | brlcad | as a *language*, lots of languages don't have support for things like threading and networking |
| 02:36.08 | brlcad | that has little to do with the language itself |
| 02:36.38 | brlcad | c/c++ certainly seem to do just fine without 'em |
| 02:36.52 | ``Erik | thinks it's dandy, but things like java, python, ruby, etc all support new shtuff, so *shrug* |
| 02:37.29 | ``Erik | ah, but C is its own ffi, the bsd tcp/ip socket is pretty much de facto standard, pthreads, ... |
| 02:37.48 | ``Erik | it's not like there're two dozen competing halfassed attemps for each technology :) |
| 02:38.01 | brlcad | there's a big diff between the language not supporting it and there being *no practical way possible* to do networking and threading too |
| 02:38.42 | ``Erik | it's like even basic threading has the same kinda mess that c/c++ sees with gui widget toolkits |
| 02:39.24 | brlcad | c/c++ does fine because there are plenty of libs that build up from platform-specific intrinsics all the way up to generalized apis (e.g. pthreads) .. so where is the 'standard lisp common library' project? |
| 02:40.05 | brlcad | there were two dozen competing halfassed attempts, and it still wasn't a (big) problem |
| 02:41.15 | brlcad | how about the dozen ways you can get two processes to talk to each other even on modern systems .. still not standard |
| 02:42.04 | brlcad | sounds like you'd probably get the most mileage if that is in fact the problem, with developing something like APR for lisp |
| 02:42.53 | brlcad | or a libbu or an stl or glib or stdc, etc |
| 02:43.54 | brlcad | and make it cross-platform to CL and Scheme to boot for bigger adoption props ;) |
| 02:44.07 | brlcad | 'platform' in the loose sense of course :) |
| 02:44.27 | ``Erik | *shurg* mebbe, but when combined with a small user community and that most people seem to have social skills in like wth de raadt or drepper, it gets awful ugly awful fast |
| 03:01.04 | starseeker | raises eyebrows - Oracle will not be throwing out SPARC |
| 03:03.11 | ``Erik | that's not too surprising, is it? oracle wants to build an end-to-end stack to compete with the ibm solution... |
| 03:05.08 | starseeker | yes, but including their own chips? will they really do better than using x86? |
| 03:05.26 | starseeker | don't get me wrong, anything that continues to enhance opensparc I'm all for |
| 03:05.58 | ``Erik | historically, sun machines have been i/o superbeasts... and it might be more product differentiation than technical capability *shrug* |
| 03:09.25 | starseeker | dreams of the "open hardware desktop" and opensparc is the obvious (only?) serious candidate for a CPU - continued support for the open aspect I suppose isn't guaranteed but fingers crossed... |
| 03:11.30 | ``Erik | you assume oracle will continue support of the open aspect... typically pointy haired business sense says to lock it down as much as possible and go proprietary |
| 03:12.12 | starseeker | not assume - hope |
| 03:13.14 | starseeker | they have to differentiate themselves from IBM somehow - if people study opensparc processors in college before entering the "real world" that may help Oracle, and probably won't hurt |
| 03:13.36 | starseeker | locking it down makes sense only if they want exclusive use of it |
| 03:14.01 | starseeker | or license it I suppose |
| 03:14.22 | starseeker | ARM seems to have the "license our CPU IP" market sewn up... |
| 03:15.11 | ``Erik | I d'no, I have a feeling we'll see oracle producing sparc powered "database appliances" |
| 03:15.26 | starseeker | thinks students using *BSD and Linux in college was a big factor in those becoming more "accepted" once that generation got into the workforce |
| 03:15.45 | ``Erik | a few, mebbe half a dozen different physical boxes, all to support a dedicated database instance |
| 03:16.11 | starseeker | ``Erik: sure. that's what I'd expect. What's not clear is whether being proprietary with sparc gets them anything in that scenario |
| 03:16.40 | ``Erik | it doesn't have to, they just need to think it does |
| 03:17.06 | starseeker | If you're coughing up the $$$$$ for Oracle in the first place, aren't you likely to go with THE Oracle stack rather than mix and match what would have to be unsupported 3rd party sparc hardware with Oracle software? |
| 03:17.09 | ``Erik | apples openness with their architecture was incredibly short lived, I can't see oracle thinking any different |
| 03:17.11 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos (n=Me@dsl107.esjtvtli.sover.net) |
| 03:17.40 | starseeker | apple plays in the desktop market |
| 03:17.54 | ``Erik | and most suits tend to think that openness == vulnerability |
| 03:17.57 | starseeker | most of their users don't care if the CPU is a stick of bubble gum, as long as it works |
| 03:18.20 | starseeker | ``Erik: yeah, I've seen that argument too |
| 03:18.53 | starseeker | debunking it is hard work - usually because it involves getting them to listen to unplesant truths in a way that doesn't get you fired |
| 03:19.25 | starseeker | but at least some of Sun's management seems to be clued in on open source, so perhaps Oracle will listen to them |
| 03:20.00 | starseeker | has seen speculation that Larry will keep OpenOffice going just as a nose-thumbing to Bill Gates, but I dunno... |
| 03:20.28 | ``Erik | larry does hate bill |
| 03:20.29 | ``Erik | a lot |
| 03:21.03 | starseeker | won't be sorry to see KOffice get serious help, in some ways... it's a lot cleaner than the beast that is OO.org but its import/export (all important for that set of apps) kinda sucks |
| 03:24.33 | starseeker | but that assumes serious dev resources would be committed by someone, and the only logical candidate I can think of is probably Red Hat... |
| 03:25.39 | starseeker | and they've gone the way of Gnome... |
| 03:26.08 | starseeker | oh, well. two to three years should tell the tale |
| 03:26.22 | ``Erik | I feel like such an outsider... vim, gnome, ... heh |
| 03:26.46 | starseeker | too, for that matter - vim, fluxbox + gkrellm |
| 03:26.50 | ``Erik | got into gnome with 0.10 |
| 03:27.06 | starseeker | wow |
| 03:27.08 | ``Erik | never like gkrellm, never really messed with fluxbox |
| 03:27.30 | ``Erik | I think sawfish was the X wm I grooved to the most |
| 03:27.47 | starseeker | migrated from blackbox - gkrellm is a lot of compact info and functionality (mounting dvds, etc) in a very small space |
| 03:27.53 | ``Erik | fvwm, ice, e, as, wm... |
| 03:28.05 | starseeker | tried 'em all |
| 03:28.15 | starseeker | the runner up was probably windowmaker |
| 03:28.30 | ``Erik | see, by the time gkrellm existed, I'd learned 'nuff to be totally happy in an xterm |
| 03:28.50 | starseeker | but as I got past the point where having icons to click on to start apps was important, windowmaker seemed less optimal than it did initially |
| 03:28.59 | starseeker | ``Erik: heh. |
| 03:29.31 | starseeker | is a graph junkie - CPU graphs + hard disk activity graphs + network traffic graphs |
| 03:29.36 | poolio | starseeker: ever tried a tiled WM? |
| 03:29.58 | ``Erik | I got into sawfish with I think it was the 'crux' theme? a 2x2 workspace setup, Xterm in top left, web in top right, email in bottom left, "whatever else" in bottom right |
| 03:30.07 | starseeker | has never seen any visual presentation of systeim activity he likes better - not even from Apple |
| 03:30.20 | starseeker | poolio: urm. isn't fvwm tiled? |
| 03:31.34 | ``Erik | got into centralized performance monitors with lightweight daemons polling info off the local machines |
| 03:31.51 | starseeker | ah :-) yeah, different situation. |
| 03:31.58 | starseeker | has never had more than one machine to keep track of |
| 03:32.20 | ``Erik | went from a few to a few hundred in '02 |
| 03:32.56 | poolio | starseeker: hmm, i dont think it's considered tiled. Does it do automatic window layout and stuff? |
| 03:33.11 | starseeker | oh, that kind of tiled. no, haven't used one like that |
| 03:33.31 | poolio | I went from Fluxbox -> xmonad, and love it :) |
| 03:33.51 | starseeker | ``Erik: heh yeah, that kind of monitoring is a whole 'nother animal |
| 03:34.12 | starseeker | googles xmonad - anything that can unseat fluxbox is worth a look |
| 03:35.05 | starseeker | written in Haskell?? how's the performance? |
| 03:37.14 | starseeker | hmm - almost looks philosophically a sort of graphical screen |
| 03:44.42 | starseeker | poolio: congrats - you've just successfully caused me to install a window manager out of curiosity - hasn't happened in years |
| 04:02.00 | *** join/#brlcad madant_ (n=d@117.196.136.172) |
| 04:03.25 | starseeker | poolio: this is... actually pretty friggin cool |
| 04:04.19 | starseeker | it really does feel in some ways a bit like what screen would be if it were a graphical program... |
| 04:17.47 | starseeker | may just try this for a few days |
| 04:17.57 | starseeker | see what it feels like |
| 04:18.24 | starseeker | may not miss the graphical monitoring |
| 04:18.34 | starseeker | any favorite tricks? |
| 04:18.42 | poolio | starseeker: schweet :D It's all configurable in Haskell. I can give you my stuff if you want, and you can hoook it up to a kinda graphical monitor like dzen2 or xmobar |
| 04:19.10 | poolio | lemme take a screenshot :P |
| 04:20.12 | poolio | http://poolio.org/xmonad.png |
| 04:20.47 | poolio | The main thing I hated with fluxbox was that I would always have a billion windows opened and stacked on top of each other, and then on some desktops I'd want certain layouts for coding/chat/etc... |
| 04:21.03 | poolio | It takes a while to get used to, but now I could never see going back :) |
| 04:22.03 | starseeker | can see that - I'll sometimes have five xterms open to the same directory, only two of which have anything happening because the other three are hidden |
| 04:22.13 | starseeker | then I get to clean up the mess when everything is closed down |
| 04:22.22 | starseeker | yeah, that monitor looks interesting |
| 04:22.28 | starseeker | an extension, I take it? |
| 04:24.34 | starseeker | poolio: there seems to always be one line at the bottom of a given terminal window - is that deliberate to allow controll space? |
| 04:26.54 | starseeker | snorts - gimp looks rather ackward |
| 04:27.05 | starseeker | no surprises there |
| 04:32.55 | starseeker | will have to check out dzen, but after sleep |
| 04:36.00 | poolio | yeah so, you can also 'float' applications, so you can have windows on top and have the window manager ignore them, but it's not very good at that... |
| 04:36.48 | poolio | err, I'm not sure about the one line gap, I have that too but thought it was related to the sizing of the window |
| 05:06.03 | *** join/#brlcad d-lo (n=claymore@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 06:40.32 | *** join/#brlcad pacman871 (n=pacman87@resnet-46-40.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 06:43.02 | Ralith | starseeker: playing with xmonad? :D |
| 06:43.25 | Ralith | has it running on his two display machine |
| 06:43.28 | Ralith | handles it beautifully. |
| 06:43.59 | Ralith | does not have any gaps on his terms |
| 06:48.20 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.128.218) |
| 06:57.32 | *** join/#brlcad cad21 (n=a31c4032@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 07:15.10 | *** join/#brlcad _clock_ (n=_sushi_@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch) |
| 07:35.57 | *** join/#brlcad mafm (n=mafm@223.Red-83-49-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 08:46.15 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14EC39.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:54.33 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 09:01.30 | Mike111 | hi all |
| 09:14.55 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.133.163) |
| 09:29.26 | *** join/#brlcad _clock_ (n=_sushi_@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch) |
| 09:38.25 | Mike111 | I am unable to compile 7.14.6 on Debian Lenny, P6 |
| 09:38.31 | Mike111 | any ideas? |
| 09:40.11 | Mike111 | here are the final lines from make: |
| 09:40.25 | Mike111 | make[2]: Entering directory `/home/yoel/app/brl_cad/brlcad-7.14.6/src/bwish' |
| 09:40.26 | Mike111 | /bin/sh ../../libtool --silent --tag=CC --silent --mode=link gcc -I../../src/other/incrTcl/itcl/generic -I../../src/other/tcl/generic -I../../src/other/tcl/unix -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -O3 -L/usr/local/lib -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -O3 -o btclsh btclsh-cmd.o btclsh-input.o btclsh-main.o btclsh-tcl.o ../../src/libtclcad/libtclcad.la ../../src/libdm/libdm.la ../../src/other/incrTcl/libitk.la |
| 09:40.26 | Mike111 | ../../src/other/incrTcl/libitcl.la -L../../src/other/tk/unix -ltk8.5 -L../../src/other/tcl/unix -ltcl8.5 -ldl -lm ../../src/libtermio/libtermio.la |
| 09:40.34 | Mike111 | ../../src/libtclcad/.libs/libtclcad.so: undefined reference to `X24_close_existing' |
| 09:40.44 | Mike111 | ../../src/libtclcad/.libs/libtclcad.so: undefined reference to `_X24_open_existing' |
| 09:41.01 | Mike111 | ../../src/libtclcad/.libs/libtclcad.so: undefined reference to `X24_interface' |
| 09:41.09 | Mike111 | collect2: ld returned 1 exit status |
| 09:41.19 | Mike111 | make[2]: *** [btclsh] Error 1 |
| 09:42.07 | Mike111 | make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/mike/app/brl_cad/brlcad-7.14.6/src/bwish' |
| 09:42.07 | Mike111 | make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 |
| 09:42.07 | Mike111 | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/mike/app/brl_cad/brlcad-7.14.6/src' |
| 09:42.07 | Mike111 | make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 |
| 09:44.38 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.138.225) |
| 11:53.29 | *** join/#brlcad Mouette (n=chatzill@fw1.phys.sinica.edu.tw) |
| 11:58.04 | brlcad | starseeker: tis a good one to try out -- that wm has a lot of features that are in IEO for the new gui |
| 11:58.15 | brlcad | xmonad and wmii have a lot in common |
| 11:59.25 | brlcad | Mike111: cool, so now that you're that far .. we can try some things |
| 12:00.12 | brlcad | try this: cd src/bwish && make CFLAGS=../../src/libfb/libfb.la |
| 12:07.13 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03indianlarry * r34464 10/brlcad/trunk/src/conv/step/Makefile.am: removed fedex_src dependency |
| 12:19.08 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-199.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |
| 12:46.49 | starseeker | ``Erik: here you go, a common lisp window manager: http://www.nongnu.org/stumpwm/ |
| 12:48.30 | ``Erik | hehehe isn't that what sawfish is? :D |
| 12:49.08 | ``Erik | my wm of choice these days is the quartz/aqua dealie |
| 13:00.32 | *** join/#brlcad madant_ (n=d@117.196.133.242) |
| 13:37.10 | starseeker | hrm - setting up dzen isn't so simple, if you want to do it right |
| 13:39.17 | starseeker | ooo - http://conky.sourceforge.net/ |
| 13:39.28 | starseeker | darn it, now I'm gonna have to figure it out |
| 13:53.33 | madant_ | likes conky :) |
| 13:53.50 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos_ (n=Me@dsl107.esjtvtli.sover.net) |
| 14:15.14 | *** join/#brlcad alvaro (n=alvaro@190.77.167.45) |
| 14:16.48 | rincon | does brlcad has uninstall facilities, when you install it from the tar.gz file? |
| 14:17.43 | brlcad | it fully installs into one directory, so you can just remove that directory |
| 14:17.53 | brlcad | for example: rm -rf /usr/brlcad |
| 14:18.00 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r34465 10/brlcad/trunk/src/ (libged/CMakeLists.txt librt/CMakeLists.txt): stay in sync with Makefile.am |
| 14:18.22 | brlcad | wonders why the distcheck isn't catching the cmakelist updates.. |
| 14:21.03 | rincon | brlcad: will .tar.gz installation will add a menu? |
| 14:22.06 | brlcad | no |
| 14:22.18 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34466 10/brlcad/trunk/Makefile.am: ah, so the cmakecheck is running but just not halting (depending on the version of make) when the script reports an error. make it stop so that an out-of-sync CMakeLists.txt file will cause a distcheck failure. |
| 14:22.21 | *** join/#brlcad d_rossberg (n=rossberg@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 14:22.35 | brlcad | the .tar.gz is an install tree, you 'install' it by just copying it into place |
| 14:22.56 | brlcad | e.g., it'll unpack a usr/brlcad directory, and you copy that to /usr/brlcad |
| 14:23.10 | brlcad | to uninstall, you rm -rf /usr/brlcad |
| 14:23.20 | *** join/#brlcad samrose (n=samrose@99.147.180.206) |
| 14:23.21 | brlcad | doesn't get much simpler |
| 14:24.01 | rincon | brlcad: no need of using the ./configure or make ? |
| 14:24.20 | brlcad | rincon: depends if you have a source tarball or a binary distribution |
| 14:24.31 | rincon | good question? |
| 14:24.34 | brlcad | that was all presuming you had a binary |
| 14:24.44 | rincon | i do not know that |
| 14:24.57 | brlcad | well I can't tell you what you downloaded :) |
| 14:25.15 | brlcad | and if you don't know, you have a lot bigger problems than uninstall :) |
| 14:28.39 | rincon | i downloaded this: http://sourceforge.net/project/downloading.php?group_id=105292&filename=brlcad_7.10.4_ia32.tar.gz&a=96672383 |
| 14:29.15 | brlcad | well that's a binary install |
| 14:29.19 | brlcad | hence the ia32 |
| 14:29.49 | rincon | there was no newer version for a 32 bit computer... |
| 14:29.56 | brlcad | you took some link in order to get to that download link though, I'm sure that told you it was a binary install too |
| 14:30.35 | brlcad | yeah, binaries are only pushed out every so often for given platforms, want people from the community to do that |
| 14:31.17 | brlcad | there's enough development tasks to be messing with binary installers every release, those installers can be prepared by anyone (even you!) |
| 14:31.37 | brlcad | if you want to help maintain the linux ia32 build, go for it |
| 14:32.38 | rincon | whre is the newest version of brlcad sources? |
| 14:32.56 | ``Erik | starseeker: are you in today? |
| 14:36.02 | brlcad | ~cadsvn |
| 14:36.02 | ibot | To obtain BRL-CAD from Subversion: svn checkout https://brlcad.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/brlcad/brlcad/trunk brlcad |
| 14:37.51 | rincon | i copied brlcad folder to /usr now how do i start it? |
| 14:46.20 | starseeker | ``Erik: I'll be in in an hour or so |
| 14:46.49 | starseeker | ``Erik: something urgent? |
| 14:47.09 | ``Erik | aight, I brought in that book if you want to thumb through it and see if it's worth picking up a copy... I've only skimmed, but I plan on getting deep into it this weekend O.o |
| 14:47.44 | starseeker | ah, cool :-) |
| 14:48.04 | starseeker | that may be the only book I've seen where a LIBRARY copy brings $99 |
| 14:48.33 | starseeker | rincon: type mged |
| 15:00.37 | rincon | in /usr/brlcad/bin/mged ? |
| 15:02.28 | rincon | command. /usr/brlcad/bin/mged does not works |
| 15:02.58 | rincon | [root@alvaro-edicta-host bin]# /usr/brlcad/bin/mged |
| 15:02.59 | rincon | /usr/brlcad/bin/mged: error while loading shared libraries: libstdc++.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| 15:02.59 | rincon | [root@alvaro-edicta-host bin]# |
| 15:04.16 | *** part/#brlcad rincon (n=alvaro@190.77.167.45) |
| 15:24.42 | starseeker | starts distcheck going and heads out |
| 15:53.29 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14EC39.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:55.27 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34467 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/mirror.c: that 2.0 scaling factor was rather important so that the object is translated across the mirror point far enough. fixes a bug introduced with the r34263 elimination of the offset as a separately tracked value. |
| 15:56.12 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34468 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: unbroked. last call for commits. |
| 16:04.11 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34469 10/brlcad/trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Consolidate the necessity to provide a simulation of drand48() to one place. |
| 16:05.36 | brlcad | ~bob1961++ |
| 16:32.25 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 17:05.15 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.137.163) |
| 17:08.37 | ``Erik | huzzah, my car is standing on all 4 again |
| 17:08.49 | brlcad | congrats |
| 17:09.08 | ``Erik | still needs body work and a new wheel though :( |
| 17:09.55 | madant | thinks 'them americans' love their cars too much .. |
| 17:10.35 | brlcad | madant: indeed! |
| 17:10.41 | brlcad | is sick of car commercials |
| 17:11.08 | madant | oh.. and brlcad, what about the guy who bumped ur car ? any progress with the police ? |
| 17:11.20 | brlcad | madant: nah, they're not going to do anything |
| 17:11.28 | madant | brlcad, except the "things just work" commercial of course .. |
| 17:11.29 | brlcad | will just get fixed |
| 17:12.50 | madant | hmm.. my cousin getting engaged tomorrow :P big deal in india i guess :D are there engagement parties in US ? |
| 17:13.05 | brlcad | of course |
| 17:14.03 | madant | hates being in family weddings etc. :P |
| 17:25.33 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34470 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 17:25.33 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: no longer using the horrible old/former/obsoleted sf task tracker, so don't |
| 17:25.33 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: reference it. instead just point to the trackers and be more succint on what |
| 17:25.33 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: the purpose of this file is and how the devs use it. refer to the task backlog |
| 17:25.33 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: as a backlog. |
| 17:43.18 | *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 17:43.37 | *** part/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 17:43.57 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r34471 10/brlcad/trunk/src/adrt/ (libtienet/tienet_master.h master/master.c): announce when listening |
| 17:44.20 | ``Erik | opposed to the old former obscoleted whiteboard in the hallway? :D |
| 17:45.48 | brlcad | no particularly, no |
| 17:48.09 | brlcad | not everyone has access to that, nor is it very effective at being persistent or supporting a lot of items |
| 17:48.18 | starseeker | madant: the cog commercial is just using the car as an excuse to do the cool stuff ;-) |
| 17:48.41 | ``Erik | it's very persistant, I bet the old items are still sunbaked on it somewhere |
| 17:48.54 | starseeker | and probably still need doing :-/ |
| 17:49.41 | brlcad | starseeker: actually, most of them are still active .. the only ones that were remaining when the board was taken down are the oldest ones in the sf tracker |
| 17:52.07 | *** join/#brlcad _sushi_ (n=_sushi_@77-58-230-58.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:09.23 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34472 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: |
| 18:09.23 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: keith improved asc2g so that it will import even larger bots before running out |
| 18:09.23 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: of memory (and import faster). he made it chunk in input into manageable sizes |
| 18:09.23 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: and being more memory efficient. this was in response to sf feature request |
| 18:09.23 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 2750772 from dwaynelk (asc2g fails on large/complex bots) |
| 18:15.19 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34473 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: note that bob improved the interactive editing support in archer adding support for mouse-based editing of arb8's torii and ellipsoids |
| 18:16.01 | brlcad | I think that's everything -- should check yourself to make sure your user-visible changes are in there |
| 18:16.34 | brlcad | vaguely recalls a tire bug being fixed? |
| 18:16.52 | brlcad | dunno about user-visible for adrt, didn't seem in commits |
| 18:17.10 | ``Erik | nah, pieces are still not public |
| 18:17.33 | ``Erik | soon... mwahaha |
| 18:21.55 | brlcad | updating TODO -- anyone have something they think will be done by next month? |
| 18:22.09 | brlcad | ideally at least one item from anyone doing anything |
| 18:22.40 | ``Erik | will get his car back, get his door fixed, and pick his nose. :D |
| 18:23.04 | brlcad | yeah.. okay |
| 18:23.08 | brlcad | that's not helpful |
| 18:24.13 | ``Erik | d'no how helpful "do more adrt stuff" would be O.o |
| 18:24.26 | brlcad | how about that pnts as points to the dm mod? |
| 18:25.06 | ``Erik | if I lose the will and steam with adrt work, I may go back to that as a distraction :/ |
| 18:25.07 | brlcad | well it is helpful if you can specify 'stuff' |
| 18:25.58 | ``Erik | would have to think on that *shrug* |
| 18:26.16 | brlcad | even if it's minor, something measurable .. precursor to a much more involved planning day coming up anyways |
| 18:26.45 | ``Erik | regaining the 2 lost isst modes? O.o |
| 18:27.07 | brlcad | what's one of them? |
| 18:27.18 | ``Erik | cut and shot |
| 18:27.29 | brlcad | what's probably the easier of the two? :) |
| 18:27.38 | ``Erik | d'no, but cut is first :) |
| 18:28.12 | brlcad | what's shot? |
| 18:28.24 | brlcad | things on the shotline? |
| 18:28.37 | brlcad | assume cut is the split-view cutting plane |
| 18:31.24 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34474 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 18:31.24 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: stub out a preliminary guess on what's achievable by the end of this release |
| 18:31.24 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: iteration (3 weeks remaining) with coverage across at least 5 devs. pnt |
| 18:31.24 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: improvements, step-g progress, archer updates, functab refactoring, and adrt |
| 18:31.24 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: views. |
| 18:31.32 | ``Erik | hrm, the split view one is cut, yes, ... mebbe the oter one was flos? |
| 18:32.35 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 18:32.57 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34475 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: break up the adrt to-do's, remove 'cleanup' as it's too vague |
| 18:38.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34476 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 18:38.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: the polygonal NMG -> ON BREP is actually more important than old bspline/nurbs |
| 18:38.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: NMG -> ON BREP so just stub out the goal for both. 'not suck' is too |
| 18:38.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: nondescript for the tables command (don't remember what that meant, and I wrote |
| 18:38.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: it). erik exposed nmg_fix_normals so remove from list. |
| 18:42.13 | ``Erik | 0 |
| 18:42.14 | ``Erik | |
| 18:43.09 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34477 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: |
| 18:43.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: had it in mind for years now to record a matrix above all primitives (akin to |
| 18:43.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: putting each primitive into their own comb) so that all primitives will retain a |
| 18:43.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: local coordinate system by default (where their V stays at 0,0,0). this will |
| 18:43.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: help primitives like the torus support non-uniform scaling without screwing with |
| 18:43.12 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: the implicit form of a torus. |
| 18:44.17 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34478 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: screw it, c++ is requisite given the BREP integration, GS and GE plans, and the new modeler. |
| 18:46.15 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34479 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: the tops behaviors were merged with the old form formally deprecated. in 7.14.4 |
| 18:48.42 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34480 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: expand on CSG optimize task (probably should be multiple, but good enough for now) |
| 18:49.17 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34481 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: looks like today will be release day.. awaiting a few more distchecks to complete. |
| 18:51.22 | brlcad | wonders if someone could go kick xon/xoff |
| 18:57.08 | ``Erik | they should be rebooting now |
| 19:03.13 | ``Erik | aight, thye'reup |
| 19:04.04 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r34482 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: Add NEWS note on tire tread fix. |
| 19:06.27 | starseeker | brlcad: what do you think - are we ready on the backend to have a go at implementing exec for search? |
| 19:09.13 | starseeker | is currently trying to internalize what is needed to build the "bounding box tree" needed for the NURBS raytracing algorithm |
| 19:09.15 | brlcad | starseeker: it's close, there's still a few api problems that should be sorted out in the ged structure and to invoke a pass-through callback |
| 19:09.34 | brlcad | that sounds like a more pressing task actually :) |
| 19:09.59 | brlcad | nurbs trumpeth all this summer as we pull into the final stretch |
| 19:11.25 | starseeker | heh - well, you asked for things that might get done within the month... |
| 19:11.34 | starseeker | doesn't know about that one yet |
| 19:11.44 | brlcad | implementing the bb routine for nurbs sounds like a good goal :) |
| 19:12.01 | starseeker | is also trying to figure out how that relates to our own ideas about sub-bounding-boxes for e.g. pipe |
| 19:12.01 | brlcad | succint in itself |
| 19:12.06 | starseeker | k |
| 19:12.21 | starseeker | pulls up TODO, unless it's frozen now? |
| 19:15.41 | brlcad | todo is never really frozen |
| 19:15.58 | brlcad | only risky code changes |
| 19:17.14 | brlcad | starseeker: ws 'type' in that news commit |
| 19:17.19 | brlcad | er, typo |
| 19:17.32 | starseeker | oops sorry |
| 19:17.44 | brlcad | and is that for specific use? |
| 19:17.48 | brlcad | thin tires, thick ones? |
| 19:18.45 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r34483 10/brlcad/trunk/ (NEWS TODO): Fix NEWS ws typo, add TODO item specifically identifying need for a NURBS 'bounding box tree' building routine |
| 19:18.57 | starseeker | um... I THINK it showed up thicker treaded tires |
| 19:20.04 | starseeker | or, "wider" actually |
| 19:20.47 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r34484 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: Tweak tire NEWS item some more |
| 19:24.39 | *** join/#brlcad madant_ (n=d@117.196.128.49) |
| 19:43.23 | starseeker | brlcad: distcheck passes on linux x86_64 |
| 19:43.32 | brlcad | cool |
| 19:57.58 | starseeker | and Mac OSX |
| 19:58.08 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34485 10/brlcad/trunk/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Added ged_pscale() for scaling primitives.' attributes. |
| 19:58.39 | starseeker | hmm. |
| 19:58.42 | starseeker | rebuilds |
| 20:01.02 | brlcad | huh, well that was certainly a good refactoring |
| 20:01.27 | brlcad | eliminated a couple hundred lines |
| 20:06.38 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r34486 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libged/CMakeLists.txt: Add pscale.c to CMakeLists.txt |
| 20:13.24 | brlcad | starseeker: did distcheck catch that? |
| 20:13.40 | *** join/#brlcad samrose (n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 20:13.56 | starseeker | didn't hault, but I saw your script report it |
| 20:14.03 | brlcad | damn |
| 20:14.42 | brlcad | that should have worked |
| 20:27.33 | *** join/#brlcad andax (n=andax__@d213-102-41-113.cust.tele2.ch) |
| 20:30.38 | *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@91.20.236.57) |
| 20:39.35 | starseeker | ok, distcheck passed again on x86_64 linux and Mac |
| 21:28.18 | brlcad | thanks |
| 22:16.54 | *** join/#brlcad samrose (n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 22:53.14 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-199.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |
| 23:06.34 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-199.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |
| 23:27.09 | starseeker | and on gentoo 32 bit linux, fwiw |
