| 00:22.31 | brlcad | starseeker: you happen to have a specific nirt/rt script handy that provokes a root convergence error? |
| 00:23.15 | brlcad | if you get a chance, would like to put that to rest and have a couple things I'd like to check out but need a test case or three |
| 00:49.14 | starseeker | brlcad: do you mean for the eto? |
| 00:49.35 | brlcad | for any that fail to converge |
| 00:49.59 | starseeker | erm. I can probably make one for the default tire - give me a sec |
| 00:55.59 | starseeker | brlcad: does that error message output suppression you added for the nurbs raytracing work for all of them? |
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| 01:07.28 | starseeker | brlcad: this rt script will kick up a healthy bunch on one of the ellipses you get with the default tire command (no tread - just run tire tire) |
| 01:07.31 | starseeker | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/mb9f9cf3 |
| 01:07.40 | starseeker | you can see the lines in the raytrace |
| 01:08.07 | starseeker | I'll be back later if you want me to narrow it down further |
| 01:09.10 | Mike111 | hi all |
| 01:09.53 | Mike111 | is there help available on dsp (can't see it in Vol. II) |
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| 01:50.17 | brlcad | Mike111: it's an advanced primitive, best to ask specific questions on how to use it |
| 01:50.43 | brlcad | you'll need a raw binary data file with unsigned short height values |
| 01:51.00 | Mike111 | what does it do? |
| 01:52.11 | brlcad | it's a height field primitive |
| 01:52.29 | brlcad | a grid of elevation values |
| 01:53.12 | Mike111 | something like an landscape defined by elevations? |
| 01:53.23 | Mike111 | something like a landscape defined by elevations? |
| 01:53.24 | brlcad | I'd use an ARS before using a DSP for your air foil |
| 01:53.28 | brlcad | yes |
| 01:53.59 | brlcad | for an air foil, you'd basically use two aligned dsp's unioned together with smoothed values |
| 01:54.48 | brlcad | but again, not what I'd recommend first |
| 01:54.48 | brlcad | here is a massive data set dsp: http://brlcad.org/tmp/puget01.png |
| 01:56.11 | Mike111 | regarding the ars, as I understand the waterlines all start from the same point? |
| 01:58.11 | brlcad | ? |
| 01:58.37 | brlcad | not really |
| 01:59.16 | brlcad | there is a starting reference point, but from there it's whatever you input |
| 01:59.57 | Mike111 | The webpage says:`In addition to the intermediate polygons a line will be created that begins at the start point, goes through each polygon at its vertex numbered 1, and terminates at the end point. This is repeated for each polygon vertex 2 thru N. The start point, polygons, and end point are each a "waterline"' |
| 02:00.45 | Mike111 | so with that twisted cube, the start point is the center of the top face and the endpoint if center of the bottom face, right? |
| 02:03.09 | brlcad | think of it like this: http://www.dans-hobbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/waterlines.jpg |
| 02:03.36 | brlcad | there are "loops" at each waterline level -- those are the polygons it refers to |
| 02:04.24 | brlcad | like if you sliced an apple, http://www.mathcubed.com/images/sliced_apple.jpg |
| 02:04.40 | brlcad | each polygon is the outline of the apple for that layer |
| 02:05.52 | Mike111 | so each polygon is a 2D slice? |
| 02:06.21 | brlcad | yes |
| 02:07.10 | Mike111 | so if I want to model a wing comprised of airfoil cross-sections, each `polygon' is now an airfoil? |
| 02:07.28 | brlcad | so in http://brlcad.org/wiki/BRL-CAD_Primitives .. there are four simple slices (layers) |
| 02:07.43 | brlcad | each layer simply has just four points so it's really boxy |
| 02:07.48 | brlcad | add more points and it smooths out |
| 02:07.56 | brlcad | yes |
| 02:08.13 | brlcad | each cross-section would be described by a simple 2d polygon |
| 02:08.39 | Mike111 | but for accurate description of the airfoil I'll need tens of points |
| 02:08.56 | brlcad | probably hundreds |
| 02:09.15 | brlcad | if you have the equations, that part can be automated |
| 02:09.33 | Mike111 | the airfoil is defined by a polynomial, so yes |
| 02:10.09 | Mike111 | I have the coordinates for the airfoil's upper and lower surface (above and below its mean line) in a plain text file |
| 02:17.23 | Mike111 | for the wing model, the start point will be in root airfoil section (say its centre) and the end point is in the tip airfoil section? |
| 02:18.22 | starseeker | brlcad: does that script help any? |
| 02:20.10 | brlcad | trying to get it to run |
| 02:21.24 | brlcad | got it! |
| 02:21.25 | brlcad | thanks! |
| 02:24.12 | starseeker | np |
| 02:43.46 | Mike111 | is there a tutorial for scripting brlcad (besides http://brlcad.org/wiki/SGI_Cube)? |
| 02:47.28 | brlcad | the mged tutorial series covers most of the basic commands, the appendix itemizes the majority of available commands, the quick reference card summarizes the commands (and has another scripting example) |
| 02:48.25 | Mike111 | brlcad uses tcl programming syntax, right? |
| 02:48.28 | brlcad | the cube example covers at least three ways to script mged -- if that's not sufficient, then you're probably lacking something else |
| 02:48.46 | brlcad | no, mged has a tcl interpreter |
| 02:48.59 | brlcad | but you can script mged using almost any language |
| 02:49.05 | brlcad | as it's command-driven |
| 02:49.26 | brlcad | that's specifically what the SGI_Cube explains |
| 02:49.28 | Mike111 | there was an example in Vol.II for writing a loop and it mentioned it's in tcl format |
| 02:50.05 | Mike111 | p.107 |
| 02:50.10 | brlcad | it really sounds like you're not understanding something fundamental -- what do/don't you understand about the SGI_Cube tutorial |
| 02:50.27 | brlcad | yes, and? |
| 02:51.10 | Mike111 | is there any benefit in learning the tcl syntax, that is, will it help in scripting for brlcad? |
| 02:51.13 | brlcad | mged's internal interpreter is tcl, so that example is in tcl -- and the SGI_Cube example is a simple posix shell script, not Tcl |
| 02:51.18 | Mike111 | besides loop, that is |
| 02:52.24 | brlcad | there's benefits to learning most languages, depends what your goal is |
| 02:52.34 | brlcad | is it necessary, no |
| 02:52.37 | brlcad | it it useful, sure |
| 02:53.16 | brlcad | what language(s) do you know? |
| 02:53.22 | Mike111 | for the airfoil, I can either generate all the coordinates in octave and output a plain text file with commands for brlcad |
| 02:53.29 | Mike111 | octave |
| 02:54.02 | brlcad | eh, anything else? |
| 02:55.43 | Mike111 | or I can presumably write a function/procedure for brlcad which will cycles over the airfoil points (instead of creating a text file with hundreds of lines) |
| 02:56.24 | brlcad | it's a means to an end -- it doesn't really matter |
| 02:56.30 | Mike111 | wondering which is better |
| 02:56.34 | brlcad | hundreds/thousands of lines would work just fine |
| 02:56.37 | brlcad | as would a proc |
| 02:57.06 | brlcad | given your background, writing out mged commands to a text file is probably the easiest |
| 02:57.26 | brlcad | in ars ars val1 val2 val3 val4 ....... |
| 02:57.42 | Mike111 | yep, I was thinking something like that |
| 02:58.05 | Mike111 | it's basically a loop which appends text lines to file with printf |
| 02:58.27 | Mike111 | octave uses the C printf syntax |
| 02:59.07 | brlcad | octave's syntax is close to csh/tcsh shell scripting syntax |
| 02:59.20 | brlcad | you might do well to learn/write a tcsh script |
| 02:59.37 | Mike111 | I've done a bit of bash scripting |
| 03:00.12 | brlcad | okay, then that |
| 03:00.44 | brlcad | sgi_cube is a posix/bash/ksh/sh script |
| 03:01.00 | Mike111 | there's no issue on mged side handling an ars with say 200 points per polygon? |
| 03:01.06 | brlcad | you should study/understand it -- it shows three specific ways to issue commands |
| 03:01.13 | brlcad | nope |
| 03:04.45 | Mike111 | ok. thanks for your help brlcad |
| 03:07.46 | brlcad | sure |
| 03:12.48 | starseeker | wonders how workable a tool to generate birail based wings from NACA numbers + wing type (straight, tapered, delta, etc) |
| 03:21.26 | Mike111 | starseeker: NACA is only one of airfoil parameterization methods. common current methods are PARSEC (11 design variables) and Hicks-Henne (sum of basis functions) |
| 03:21.46 | starseeker | Is NACA a subset, or different altogether? |
| 03:21.54 | Mike111 | different |
| 03:22.08 | starseeker | so, not terribly useful for modern wings? |
| 03:22.18 | Mike111 | PARSEC are Hicks-Henne are recent |
| 03:22.48 | Mike111 | Hard to say. I haven't seen many recent studies where people directly used NACA. |
| 03:22.59 | starseeker | hrm |
| 03:23.12 | starseeker | any references available on PARSEC and Hicks-Henne online? |
| 03:23.29 | Mike111 | It will probably be sufficient if brlcad can smoothly blend two arbitrary cross-sections |
| 03:23.42 | Mike111 | the user will need to provide the cross-sections (airfoils) |
| 03:24.19 | starseeker | oh, sure - I'm more curious about the possibility of generating "standard" wing shapes based on some standard specification - be it NACA numbers, PARSEC, what have you |
| 03:25.38 | starseeker | procedural wings, if you prefer |
| 03:26.12 | Mike111 | it can be an issue since there are quite a few methods out there and they're all different |
| 03:26.32 | Mike111 | also, people are experimenting with new methods, like orthogonal polynomials |
| 03:26.38 | starseeker | nods |
| 03:26.45 | starseeker | understood |
| 03:27.05 | starseeker | but for most "standard" wing designs already in use, it's likely they're characterized by some existing method |
| 03:27.24 | starseeker | I need some XXXXXXX wings for commercial plane XXXXXX |
| 03:28.00 | Mike111 | what engineers do is optimze the wing for a performance profile |
| 03:28.19 | Mike111 | cruise speed, altitude, take-off weight etc. |
| 03:28.25 | Mike111 | either wind-tunnel or CFD |
| 03:28.48 | starseeker | once they've optimized it, how do they tell someone else what to build? |
| 03:29.24 | Mike111 | airfoil cross-sections, sweep (backward tilt of the wing), twist of airfoil sections etc. |
| 03:30.18 | starseeker | ok, so airfoil cross sections, sweep (is that an angle, or something more complex?), twist of sections (is that from one cross section to the next?) |
| 03:30.57 | Mike111 | sweep=angle of wing w.r.t to hull, twist=between airfoils |
| 03:31.42 | Mike111 | I hope brlcad will have nurbs capabilities soon (including scripting support) :) |
| 03:32.51 | starseeker | I realize no one specification is going to encompass all the experimental wing designs out there - what I'm after is some sort of "ISO or ANSI wing specification" standard that outlines a way to geometrically describe most standard wing shapes |
| 03:38.09 | starseeker | for example, for tires it would be something like this: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=36320 |
| 03:47.22 | Mike111 | not sure if this exists for wings |
| 03:58.02 | Mike111 | need to go now. have a good one |
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| 11:37.36 | brlcad | d-lo: so they're already working on migration scripts for the forums |
| 11:37.42 | brlcad | couple weeks |
| 11:38.13 | brlcad | they'll be getting rid of the old forums, the task manager, the doc manager, and the diary/notes sections |
| 11:40.52 | brlcad | yay, indianlarry is in |
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| 12:38.52 | brlcad | indianlarry: heh welcome! |
| 12:38.58 | brlcad | see you figured it out :) |
| 12:39.24 | indianlarry | partly |
| 12:40.09 | brlcad | cheers |
| 13:01.28 | d-lo | brlcad excellent! |
| 13:01.36 | d-lo | waves @ indianlarry |
| 13:01.52 | indianlarry | hey d |
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| 13:49.13 | d_rossberg | why is the color in struct mater_info float? |
| 13:49.37 | d_rossberg | in struct rt_comb_internal it is unsigned char |
| 15:24.15 | brlcad | d_rossberg: libmultispectral and other portions of the code use floating point values for color information |
| 15:24.57 | brlcad | for increased color range/depth and to avoid quantization and aliasing effects |
| 15:26.35 | brlcad | rt_comb_internal's are structures that predate by quite a bit |
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| 15:30.43 | Briggs | does brlcade use doubles or floats to represent positions internally? |
| 15:31.44 | brlcad | Briggs: compile-time toggleable, but doubles |
| 15:32.09 | brlcad | nobody has tried a float compile in over a decade too.. so might not even be possible to drop it down :) |
| 15:32.12 | Briggs | brlcad: thank you. |
| 15:32.26 | Briggs | brlcad: just curious what other packages are doing since I have been having some precision problems with floats lately. |
| 15:32.37 | brlcad | ah yeah |
| 15:33.03 | Briggs | especially at extreme scales... |
| 15:33.07 | brlcad | we hit precision problems a *long* time ago.. |
| 15:33.29 | brlcad | pre ieee floating point was notoriously unstable |
| 15:33.52 | Briggs | sorting 7kmx7km of map data to find things like intersections and collinear edges just wasnt behaving nice with floats in the picture... |
| 15:34.52 | brlcad | :) |
| 15:36.04 | brlcad | we also use tuned data structures for certain primitives, integer indexing where it makes sense for example |
| 15:36.08 | brlcad | gridded data |
| 15:36.13 | ChiGai | hello everyone, my question seem to be a little bit stupid but I still want to ask |
| 15:36.39 | brlcad | like our height fields (dsps), their raw data is unsigned short integer ranged data that is positioned in 3space |
| 15:36.45 | brlcad | ChiGai: ask away |
| 15:37.07 | Briggs | brlcad: right, I'm doing similar things. |
| 15:37.11 | brlcad | there are no stupid questions, just stupid people ;) |
| 15:37.20 | ChiGai | I am a mechanic student living in a third world country where a commerical CAD program cost is several times larger than GDP |
| 15:37.41 | ChiGai | so I am interested in finding a free CAD program, and found about brl-cad |
| 15:37.53 | brlcad | okay, cool |
| 15:37.54 | ChiGai | I don't know if it is suited for education? |
| 15:38.17 | ChiGai | most people here are using pirated version of Catia, SolidWork etc... |
| 15:38.26 | ChiGai | and I want to change that |
| 15:38.44 | _clock_ | use pirated version of brl-cad! |
| 15:38.56 | ChiGai | _clock_: how to pirate brl-cad anyway? :D |
| 15:39.01 | _clock_ | not possible :) |
| 15:39.07 | _clock_ | function not implemented :) |
| 15:39.16 | ChiGai | :P |
| 15:39.18 | brlcad | it involves wearing a pirate hat and ending a lot of sentances with arrrrrrrr.... |
| 15:39.52 | brlcad | there's a parrot invovled too, but you don't want to know what you do with it |
| 15:40.01 | ChiGai | :)) |
| 15:40.22 | ChiGai | I am building brl-cad at the moment and eager to try it |
| 15:40.43 | ChiGai | oh, done already |
| 15:41.12 | brlcad | ChiGai: we're chocked full of features and in use in production environments, but for very specific usage domains with a lot of experts |
| 15:41.27 | brlcad | so you'll find there to be a pretty steep learning curve and lacking usability |
| 15:41.40 | brlcad | things we're working on improving of course, but it takes a lot of time and effort |
| 15:42.15 | brlcad | particularly if/when compared with the usability and features in the products of multibillion dollar companies like those you mentioned ;) |
| 15:42.26 | ChiGai | hmm, I don't intend to do anything advanced so it shouldn't be too hard |
| 15:42.32 | brlcad | we still hold our own very well though, and pretty much are the best out there (as open source) |
| 15:42.37 | brlcad | if I do say so myself |
| 15:42.52 | ChiGai | and beside I like banging my head on the wall, doing hard thing |
| 15:43.13 | brlcad | there are pretty extensive tutorials on the website |
| 15:43.58 | ChiGai | I see |
| 15:44.17 | ChiGai | thank you for your answer then :) |
| 15:44.30 | brlcad | np |
| 15:44.33 | ChiGai | I hope the situation here will be improved soon |
| 15:44.43 | brlcad | and if you have questions, someone is almost always on here or will eventually answer |
| 15:44.45 | ChiGai | and thank again for your work on brl-cad |
| 15:45.02 | brlcad | though the answer is often "contributions welcome" ;) |
| 15:45.10 | ChiGai | :) |
| 15:45.18 | brlcad | we need developers more than new users (unfortunately) ;) |
| 15:45.26 | brlcad | demand is much greater than supply |
| 15:45.31 | brlcad | several orders.. |
| 15:45.41 | ChiGai | I can understand that |
| 15:46.30 | ChiGai | writing CAD software is pretty hard and need a good, solid team, that also explain why there aren't many oopen source cad software out there :( |
| 15:47.02 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34526 10/brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/mged/ (Makefile.am bots.tcl tclIndex): |
| 15:47.03 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: add the 'bots' command (along with 'per_line') to mged for finding specific |
| 15:47.03 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: kinds of bots in an open database as a short term replacement until 'search' can |
| 15:47.03 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: do it better. make the commands already deprecated so they can be removed at |
| 15:47.03 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: will when search is enhanced. |
| 15:47.13 | brlcad | yep, that's part of it |
| 15:50.33 | brlcad | the magnitude of work involved to even have basic features is pretty huge |
| 15:53.19 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34527 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: search needs some sort of -param option to inquire about specific (internal) properties of objects, like finding dsp with given dimensions, spheres of certain sizes, bots with a given orientation, etc |
| 15:53.38 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34528 10/brlcad/trunk/doc/deprecation.txt: bots and per_line are new and already deprecated. |
| 16:06.04 | d_rossberg | brlcad: i'm using floting point variables for color values in my programs too |
| 16:06.26 | d_rossberg | but region and rt_comb_internal are closely connected |
| 16:06.40 | d_rossberg | and have diferent representations for color values |
| 16:07.24 | d_rossberg | therefore there is somebody else who writes something into mater_info? |
| 16:07.57 | d_rossberg | eg libmultispectral |
| 16:13.44 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r34529 10/rt^3/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): |
| 16:13.44 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: a ray-trace hit now gives you some extra data |
| 16:13.44 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: ...to be continued... |
| 17:44.23 | brlcad | iinteresting, http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net/msg14339.html |
| 17:44.41 | brlcad | wonders if michael is on irc |
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| 18:02.14 | starseeker | brlcad: do we need to up the version number to 7.14.9 now? |
| 18:02.35 | starseeker | oh, nevermind |
| 18:02.37 | starseeker | I see it now |
| 18:03.51 | brlcad | version number should always be bumped immediately after tag (or at *least* immediately after the upload |
| 18:04.17 | starseeker | nods. Yeah, I just missed it being updated in the commits - my bad |
| 18:05.13 | brlcad | Elrohir: do you know michael buesch? |
| 18:06.37 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34530 10/brlcad/trunk/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Add editing for EPA and Particle to libged and Archer. |
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| 18:31.20 | Elrohir | brlcad: no ... never heard of that name |
| 18:37.05 | brlcad | okay, thanks :) |
| 18:42.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34531 10/brlcad/trunk/BUGS: |
| 18:42.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: fastgen plate mode bots seem to be busted for shotlines. they render just fine, |
| 18:42.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: but are nirting and rtchecking wrong. have a good sample case with attached |
| 18:42.10 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: detail added as sf bug 2791866 (plate mode bots shotline incorrectly) |
| 18:43.02 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34532 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: bob continues to add interactive editing support to archer, now for epa and part objects. |
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| 19:01.28 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34533 10/jbrlcad/trunk/src/org/brlcad/ (11 files in 7 dirs): |
| 19:01.28 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: Accept and apply sf patch 2787632 from dave brosius ([patch] minor cleanup in |
| 19:01.29 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: jbrlcad) which applies a lot of lint-style cleanup throughout the code to mark |
| 19:01.29 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: things final, declare overrides, sort imports, cleanup casts, and more. |
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| 21:48.31 | pacman87 | here's my tetris pics: https://webspace.utexas.edu/trv82/www/6811%20Tetris/index.html |
| 21:54.22 | brlcad | hehe, pacman87 how do you distinguish an M from an N ? :) |
| 21:54.48 | pacman87 | M only has one dot in the middle, just above the center |
| 21:54.49 | brlcad | thinks maybe need 4x6 glyphs or 4x5 :) |
| 21:54.58 | pacman87 | H has the center dot |
| 21:55.03 | pacman87 | W has the lower dot |
| 21:55.05 | brlcad | funny ;) |
| 21:55.10 | pacman87 | and U has the bottom dot |
| 21:56.30 | pacman87 | but the way the LCD works, it's a lot easier to code for 4 px wide letters (including spaces) |
| 21:57.54 | pacman87 | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m3a178dbb |
| 21:58.20 | brlcad | heh, neat |
| 21:58.21 | pacman87 | that's the font in 4x6 |
| 21:58.32 | pacman87 | including the spacing top and right |
| 21:59.22 | pacman87 | i want to write a quine with it, but haven't had time with finals |
