IRC log for #brlcad on 20091215

00:01.12CIA-41BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36906 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libfb/ (6 files): Get rid of forward declarations
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00:01.59starseeker``Erik: any idea why the X and X24 framebuffers are both present?
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00:07.22starseekerfrom what I can see, if_X24 supercedes if_X
00:31.38``Erikhas no idea
00:33.03Nohlahola :)
00:40.18starseekerhola :-)
00:40.46starseekerNohla: ready to build spanish documentation with make?
00:49.02Nohlajust if your patient is ready too :)
00:49.13starseekerNohla: it's easy
00:49.22starseekeryou have your svn checkout of brlcad?
00:49.29Nohlayes
00:49.39starseekerok.  cd into the top level
00:49.45CIA-41BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36907 10/brlcad/trunk/doc/docbook/ (8 files in 5 dirs): First man3 man page in docbook - add man3 to the system directory and make a new rule to generate .3 man pages.
00:49.52starseekerNohla: then run svn update
00:50.37Nohlawow! easy...
00:50.54starseekerNohla: are you seeing things downloading?
00:51.18Nohlastarseeker no, I wanted to say: slower :)
00:51.39starseekerNohla: you are in your brlcad directory?
00:51.43Nohla<PROTECTED>
00:51.55starseekerNohla: that's a commit message
00:52.01starseekerNohla: not an instruction
00:52.14NohlaI know
00:52.18starseekerIf you see a message from CIA-41, it is announcing a change to the source code
00:52.24Nohlajust I didn't undarstand
00:52.38starseekerNohla: type "svn update" in your brlcad directory
00:53.29Nohlawait, I shouldn't do that
00:53.37starseekerwhy?
00:53.59Nohlalook, the other day, by error, I changed the second tutorial but in /en dir
00:54.19NohlaThe begining is in spanish there too
00:54.37starseekerNohla: oh.  OK.  just in case, copy those files to your home directory
00:56.31Nohlastarseeker can you explain me what I did with svn update?
00:56.41Nohlajust to be shure :P
00:56.54starseekeryou will be updating your source code tree to include the latest changes
00:57.15starseekerI have altered the build system to allow for building Spanish documentation - you need those changes
00:58.49starseekerNohla: have you copied important files to your home directory?
00:59.46Nohlastarseeker could you wait for me about 10 minutes?
00:59.50starseekersure
00:59.59Nohlathanks :)
01:03.30``Eriksvn update shouldn't stomp local changes, svn revert is how you do that
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02:02.10starseeker./autogen.sh
02:02.10starseeker./configure --with-lang=ess
02:02.10starseekercd doc/docbook
02:02.11starseekermake
02:02.11starseekersorry - that's ./configure --with-lang=es
02:02.11starseeker(one s)
02:02.11Nohlaand then
02:02.21starseekerNohla: once that works, look at the file doc/docbook/lessons/es/Makefile.am and see where the xml file is listed
02:02.41starseekeryou will have built lesson1 as html and pdf
02:02.51starseekerthe next step is to add your new file
02:03.09starseekerfor an example look at doc/docbook/lessons/en/Makefile.am
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02:16.34Nohla:) in the hipoteticall case it exists
02:16.34starseekerNohla: right :-)
02:16.34Nohlastarseeker thanks again
02:16.34starseekerNohla: once you are comfortable with this method, it will be MUCH easier than running conversions manually
02:16.34starseekerde nada :-)
02:16.34starseekerthank you!
02:16.34Nohlawhat means "running conversions manually"?
02:16.34Nohlathe expression
02:16.34starseekerNohla: the long commands for creating html
02:16.34starseekerand pdf
02:17.23starseekerthe way you made html and pdf the first time :-)
02:17.23NohlaXML_CATALOG_FILES= blablabla ?
02:17.34starseekeryes
02:17.59Nohlawell, It was a more graphical way :)
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04:03.39NohlaThe BRL-CAD build system is now prepared.  To build here, run:
04:03.39Nohla<PROTECTED>
04:03.39Nohla<PROTECTED>
04:03.39brlcadthat's a yes :) .. though the Makefile.am error is probably a mistake in something starseeker did recently
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04:28.19starseekerlicense even works
04:28.19brlcadactually, they sound like a tiny dependency -- if it gives full fb services, just as good as tk if not better
04:28.19brlcadif their code and interface is actually clean and useful, could be a good leverage, just depends
04:28.19starseekernods
04:28.19starseekerhey ``Errrriikkk, more C++ code... :-P
04:28.19brlcad"sounds good" .. but it's easy to write something that sounds good
04:28.19starseekernods
04:28.19Nohlauff tell that to pastebin :)
04:28.19brlcadcould try writing an fb interface with that behind it
04:28.19starseekerapparently they're using it for some commercial screen capture app...
04:28.19brlcadoooooh, Nohla is it saying it's too much?
04:28.19brlcadconfig.log is super-long
04:28.28brlcadftp it to brlcad.org/pub/incoming
04:29.14Nohlabrlcad ?
04:29.37Nohlasorry if I was unpolite, that was not the intention
04:30.05starseekerNohla: you're fine - he is suggesting to use an ftp client to send the file to ftp://brlcad.org/pub/incoming
04:30.05Nohlaeverithing is working ban with my notebook tonight
04:30.20Nohlas/ban/bad
04:30.32starseekerbrlcad: Ah, ScreenJot:  http://www.liquidthought.com/
04:30.45brlcader, just /incoming, not /pub/incoming
04:31.11brlcadftp://brlcad.org/incoming
04:31.28starseekerdon't think they explicitly say they use pxcore, but this context suggests it:  http://www.liquidthought.com/blog/2009/07/pxcore-13-released.html
04:31.43brlcadyeah, I saw that
04:32.43starseekerwill poke at it once he gets a better feel for libfb as it currently exists
04:33.13brlcadtk would still probably be easier given the code is 80% done already ;)
04:33.25starseekernods - yes, that's the plan
04:33.50starseeker(once I can get it to do something without having mged crash on initialization when I enable it...)
04:34.17brlcadassuming it's not just because I left mged in a busted state dm-wise
04:34.33starseekerpxcore might give performance beyond Tk, if it matters, but performance is secondary to "Work without X on OSX" atm ;-)
04:34.55starseekerbrlcad: I don't think so - at least, when I disable the tk framebuffer things seem OK
04:35.12brlcadah, with the tk dm, sure
04:35.16brlcadI mean the X dm
04:35.20starseekeroh :-)
04:36.07brlcadworking on that tonight/tomorrow
04:36.46Nohlabrlcad sorry, log is too long
04:36.55Nohlado you need it yet?
04:37.06brlcadof course :)
04:37.15brlcadNohla: it's not too long for ftp
04:38.29brlcadmozilla/firefox creates read-only connections by default -- use command-line:  ftp brlcad.org
04:38.32brlcadcd incoming
04:38.35brlcadput config.log
04:38.44brlcadquit
04:38.44brlcad:)
04:41.25Nohlafirst it say only anonymous ftp are allowed, but after that ask me to login with user and pass
04:42.08brlcadnever used ftp before I see..just put anything in for password, user is anonymous
04:42.31brlcadeven nothing for password
04:43.28Nohlaaaaah It's kidding me :)
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04:56.47Nohlajust wait for me a moment
04:56.47brlcadwaits patiently
04:56.47juantelezjaja
04:56.47Nohlajuantelez sos un idiota
04:56.47brlcadjeje
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05:15.40Nohlabrlcad can you see it?
05:20.29Nohlastarseeker brlcad are you there?
05:22.44starseekerhere
05:22.51starseekerI see it
05:24.50starseekerhmm - odd
05:25.10starseekerwhat's the last message you got from configure on the terminal before it exited?
05:26.47Nohlastarseeker I've sent it by email too
05:30.53brlcadNohla: yep! you got it
05:30.58brlcadwhat was the problem?
05:31.22Nohlabrlcad where, by ftp?
05:31.42Nohla# /incoming/config.log??
05:32.16brlcadby ftp
05:32.26starseekerapparently there is no Makefile in doc/docbook
05:32.42brlcadNohla: what changed that it finally worked?
05:32.45brlcad(ftp)
05:32.52starseekerhrm...
05:33.59Nohlabrlcad me?
05:34.15brlcadNohla: yes, you :)
05:34.51brlcadNohla: cuando hiciste el ftp las primera veces, no funciono' .. que cambio?
05:35.13Nohlainstale gftp
05:35.31Nohlay me quit? el enojo :P
05:35.35brlcadheh, okay
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05:47.20brlcadahh, interesting.. her configure failure is due to the recent change trying to get aquatk working better
05:47.35brlcadno longer just 'yes', it did the test for X11 and AquaTk.. and came up with nothing for her so instead of a compile-time failure, it fell through into the "use system tk" case and failed
05:47.45brlcadahh, system tk case needs more logic now (in case it's a non-x11/non-tk build)
05:48.52Nohlabrlcad are you talking with me?
05:50.14NohlaI'm fixing my friendship with juantelez yet :P
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06:07.58CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36909 10/brlcad/trunk/doc/docbook/system/README: document what the various manual page sections actually mean
06:08.09brlcadNohla: no, just commenting about your configure failure
06:09.17Nohlabrlcad did you find the problem?
06:10.07brlcadyeah, the problem is you're missing some pieces that are expected in order to compile
06:10.25brlcaddeveloper header files
06:11.17Nohla...
06:11.41brlcadbasically, what starseeker mentioned you should install -- xorg-dev, bison, and flex for starters
06:11.47Nohlatoo late to tray to guess
06:12.09NohlaI've done when he said that
06:12.27brlcadthen you should be able to run ./configure again
06:12.32brlcadsee if it succeeds
06:12.48brlcadrm *cache*
06:12.58brlcad(before configure)
06:13.14Nohla<PROTECTED>
06:13.30brlcadthat removes a temporary cache file that configure generates
06:14.20brlcadit uses the cache file instead of retrying a test when it can
06:15.07brlcadsince you installed new things, it's a good idea to delete the cache file and run configure cleanly
06:16.02brlcadalternative is to just run sh autogen.sh again (and it will delete the cache too)
06:19.13Nohlaworking as you expected
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06:31.26Nohlabrlcad: wow, and working a lot
06:33.05Nohlawell, leave it working, good night or whatever :)
06:44.43brlcadhasta luego!
06:49.33Nohlabrlcad I'll let you working too
06:49.34Nohlamake[2]: *** [fbserv] Error 1
06:49.35Nohlamake[2]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/fbserv'
06:49.35Nohlamake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
06:49.35Nohlamake[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src'
06:49.35Nohlamake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
06:50.26Nohlabefore:
06:50.26Nohlamake[3]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/conv'
06:50.27Nohlamake[2]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/conv'
06:50.27NohlaMaking all in fbserv
06:53.16brlcadneed what preceeded that
06:53.25brlcadbefore the Error 1
06:53.57Nohlayou won't let me sleep, no? :)
06:54.21brlcadheh, :)
06:54.40brlcadyou can sleep, we can continue later today/tomorrow/whenever :)
06:55.37Nohladeps/walk_example.Tpo -c -o walk_example.o walk_example.c
06:55.37Nohlamv -f .deps/walk_example.Tpo .deps/walk_example.Po
06:55.37Nohla/bin/sh ../../libtool --silent --tag=CC  --silent --mode=link gcc  -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g  -L/usr/local/lib -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -o walk_example walk_example.o ../../src/librt/librt.la
06:55.37Nohlamake[3]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/conv'
06:55.37Nohlamake[2]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/conv'
06:55.39NohlaMaking all in fbserv
06:55.41Nohlamake[2]: se ingresa al directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/fbserv'
06:55.43Nohlagcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../include  -I../../src/other/tcl/generic -I../../src/other/tcl/unix -I/usr/local/include -DBRLCADBUILD=1 -I../../include -I../../src/other/openNURBS   -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -MT fbserv.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/fbserv.Tpo -c -o fbserv.o fbserv.c
06:55.47Nohlamv -f .deps/fbserv.Tpo .deps/fbserv.Po
06:55.49Nohlagcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../include  -I../../src/other/tcl/generic -I../../src/other/tcl/unix -I/usr/local/include -DBRLCADBUILD=1 -I../../include -I../../src/other/openNURBS   -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -MT server.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/server.Tpo -c -o server.o server.c
06:55.53Nohlamv -f .deps/server.Tpo .deps/server.Po
06:55.55Nohla/bin/sh ../../libtool --silent --tag=CC  --silent --mode=link gcc  -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g  -L/usr/local/lib -pipe -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -fexceptions -g -o fbserv fbserv.o server.o ../../src/libfb/libfb.la
06:55.59Nohla../../src/libfb/.libs/libfb.so: undefined reference to `yIMG2SCR'
06:56.03Nohla../../src/libfb/.libs/libfb.so: undefined reference to `xIMG2SCR'
06:56.05Nohlacollect2: ld returned 1 exit status
06:56.07Nohlamake[2]: *** [fbserv] Error 1
06:56.09Nohlamake[2]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src/fbserv'
06:56.11Nohlamake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
06:56.13Nohlamake[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/jesica/Desktop/brlcad/src'
06:56.15Nohlamake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
06:56.17Nohlaif it isn't enought, se continue another day
06:56.21brlcadhuh, that looks like starseeker's doing :)
06:56.23Nohlas/se/we
06:56.41Nohlawake him up :)
06:56.49brlcadhe apparently broke the compile earlier today :)
06:57.05brlcadthat is enough
06:57.35Nohlawell, good morning :(
06:57.44Nohlas/:(/:)
06:57.53Nohlao sea: :)
06:58.10brlcadthat fixes it
06:58.15Nohlagracias de nuevo, contribu?s a mi buen humor
06:58.18CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36910 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libfb/if_X.c: the defines must come before the usages or there will be undefined references in the resultant library.
06:58.20brlcad:)
06:58.28brlcadsvn up src/libfb
06:58.33brlcadmake
06:59.56brlcadNohla: gracias por vos paciencia ;)
07:00.25Nohlammm, me falt? la paciencia por un momento hoy, por eso precis? mas de la de ustedes :)
07:02.39brlcadsi no entendiste, el CIA-38 "commit" alli se arreglo' el compile, ya va continuar mas
07:03.25brlcadhas tenido mucha paciencia
07:03.34brlcadgoes both ways, thanks
07:12.21CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36911 10/brlcad/trunk/configure.ac:
07:12.21CIA-38BRL-CAD: refactor the Tk compilation testing to allow Tk to auto-disable if there isn't a
07:12.21CIA-38BRL-CAD: suitable X11/AquaTk or other subsystem available to build tk ourselves and there
07:12.21CIA-38BRL-CAD: isn't a suitable system library that seems to work right. this should let Tk be
07:12.21CIA-38BRL-CAD: optional at least during configure time (compile may still have some
07:12.22CIA-38BRL-CAD: assumptions) and will make it blather a strong message with delay if MGED's Tk
07:12.24CIA-38BRL-CAD: GUI is getting turned off.
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12:57.22starseekerbrlcad: ooops, sorry about that
12:59.49starseekermusta had some stale files hanging around
13:04.28starseekerreally, all Nohla needed for translation was to build doc/docbook...
13:04.28starseekerah well, good experience
13:04.51louipcdocbook toolchain not playing nice?
13:05.06starseekerlouipc: actually that's behaving reasonably well
13:05.34starseekerour Spanish translater is being tutored in setting up a svn BRL-CAD build
13:06.21starseekerlot to take in from a cold standing start, and some stuff I've been doing elsewhere didn't build out of box on her setup (my fault)
13:06.30louipccool
13:07.09starseekerthe minimum for what she is doing is to be able to run make in doc/docbook, but of course it's better for her to have the full setup
13:07.21louipcI need to get dockbook sgml working properly on my system
13:07.23starseekerparticularly if any screenshots need to be localized
13:07.38starseekeractually we're using xml, not sgml :-)
13:07.55louipcI know, but there's some other projects that use sgml
13:08.02starseekerah, true
13:08.51starseeker'nother few years, I'm hoping a solid Docbook toolchain will be standard on most Linux distros, but it doesn't quite seem to be there yet
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13:09.13louipcyeah
13:09.20louipcit seems too fragmented
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14:29.12starseekerhmm:  http://blog.ostp.gov/2009/12/09/ostp-to-launch-public-forum-on-how-best-to-make-federally-funded-research-available-for-free/
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15:46.25CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03johnranderson * r36912 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librtserver/rtserver.c: Added region id and air code to the output buffer
15:53.24brlcadhttp://johnmacphail.com/2009/12/send-in-the-autocad-clone/
15:56.31starseekerbrlcad: heh, cool
15:56.48starseekernot sure I'd agree "very little" has happened with BRL-CAD though ;-)
16:00.29brlcadquite true
16:00.49brlcadI don't think he means to brl-cad directly, more the commmunity adopting it
16:01.34louipcdepends on your perspective too
16:01.59louipcthere's tons of development, but little that would seem to attract most CAD users
16:03.08brlcadright
16:03.18louipcor what has been developed isn't pushed to the forefront
16:03.20brlcadand that's what I'd call the "expectation chasm"
16:03.27louipcg3d, archer
16:04.13brlcadthere's a disjoint understanding between wanting a particular feature and realizing what has to happen within the system to make that happen, the level of effort and fundamental capabilities that are required
16:05.15brlcadand not just on the order of "oh that should take a few months" and being wrong a few months .. it's features that generally take several years of effort, taken for granted because of the magnitude of effort that goes into the big commercial systems
16:06.45brlcadnot to mention not having a solid understanding (pun intended) on the differences between drafting features, boundary representations, CADD vs CAD, solid modeling, explicit vs implicit representations, etc
16:07.13brlcadthey just want a button that generates their hidden line annotated drafting diagrams in pdf format
16:07.54brlcadwith input coming from a myrid of formats and modeling approaches with various representation types
16:16.03starseekerwhich hopefully will be what FreeCAD will be good for until we get there
16:18.52brlcadnah, I still think we'll get there first
16:19.06brlcadit's not just raw output of a diagram, it's the whole workflow
16:19.22brlcadit has to be a system that will read their format (whatever it is) faithfully
16:19.37brlcadit has to represent it fully, process it and repair their mistakes automatically
16:20.15brlcadit has to often anticipate what the modeler wants through conventions made pervasive by other systems
16:20.50brlcadit has to be even easier to use than what they already know because they don't want to invest the time and effort to learn something different
16:21.01brlcadat least those are some of the expectations
16:21.18brlcadfreecad is way farther from most of that than we are
16:24.01starseekernods
16:24.54starseekerbemusedly dreams of the day BRL-CAD will be easier to use than other CAD systems ;-)
16:25.41starseekeralthough I suppose the lack of a $5000+ cover fee counts for a lot of usability
16:26.29louipc5k is the upgrade fee
16:27.15louipcwell... that's for like a 3rd tier CAD/CAM system
16:28.03starseekererm... ow...
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19:05.24starseekerhrm - bwish isn't installed??
19:05.52starseekeroh
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19:49.14starseekerhmm, that's worth noting - Tk 8.6 is using Cocoa, not carbon
19:49.30starseekershould make for some entertaining testing...
19:51.35CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36916 10/brlcad/trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Switch some WITH_X11 toggles to WITH_TK toggles
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20:59.49CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36917 10/brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/mouse.tcl: Ah HAH - move windows out from under the top level toolbar on OSX when place_near_mouse is being called.
21:35.16CIA-38BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36918 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/archer: Make sure Archer doesn't start up under the OSX menubar - need to figure out best behavior on startup generally for window placement, but this will keep Archer out of trouble on OSX for now.
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23:29.58starseekermakes a note to figure out why png icons suck in Aqua...
23:47.41``Erikicons in what sense, and suck how?
23:49.47starseekerarcher's icon toolbar, and the transparency rendering is messed up
23:49.55starseekerhttp://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/archer_aquatk_aquatheme.png
23:49.55``Erikah *shrug*
23:50.10starseekertries an experiment... if this works Bob will hate me...
23:55.17``Eriktkimg? heh
23:58.11starseekernot sure if we want to do that... but worth a try to see if it fixes something

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