| 01:02.14 | maths22 | brlcad: I would love if someone took up the mediawiki/docbook task |
| 01:02.29 | maths22 | I think it would make documentation so much more acessible |
| 01:04.14 | maths22 | One thought I had would be if the plugin could parse docbook on the fly into wikitext and on save would convert any new wikimarkup to docbook |
| 01:04.38 | maths22 | that way, mediawiki would be more like a front-end thena whole new sytax for 2-way translation |
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| 03:30.30 | starseeker | maths22: that would be ideal, yes |
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| 04:19.10 | brlcad | maths22: that's a great idea -- can you write up a wiki page for it like the others? there's a template |
| 04:20.08 | brlcad | maths22: also any idea why collapsable tables doesn't work on our wiki? |
| 04:22.18 | brlcad | tried a variety of ways, couldn't get it to work at all |
| 05:09.38 | *** join/#brlcad kintel (~kintel@unaffiliated/kintel) |
| 05:29.24 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6471 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: tighten up the intro, include numbers |
| 06:06.14 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6472 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: further tightening, remove priorities |
| 06:10.19 | brlcad | mm, external data extension installed .. this could be great |
| 07:14.57 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6473 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: restructure, fix the messed up categories |
| 07:21.29 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6474 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: several converters of interest |
| 07:26.16 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6475 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: less loud, more tightening |
| 07:34.14 | brlcad | maths22: ah, I see now you meant the existing mediawiki/docbook task .. perhaps you can retitle it more enticingly or add more detail? what would make you want to work on it if you came across this list? |
| 07:35.57 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6476 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: stub in a few more web projects |
| 07:53.00 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6477 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: combine some categories together |
| 07:58.13 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6478 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: stub two ultra high priority performance topics |
| 08:01.34 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6479 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: |
| 08:07.42 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6480 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: merge the UI tasks into the other categories, down to five primaries |
| 08:08.06 | brlcad | alright! most of the pending and priority topics are at least stubbed in now |
| 08:08.33 | brlcad | if anyone wants to give that a look over or fill in some of the red links with a description, much appreciated... |
| 08:09.08 | brlcad | some of the titles really need tightening up, they seem much harder than they really are ... need to simplify the terms some |
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| 08:20.30 | bogdan_91 | brlcad: i don't see any files or dirs. |
| 08:23.26 | brlcad | bogdan_91: hm? |
| 08:23.33 | brlcad | where are you looking? |
| 08:25.18 | bogdan_91 | I've just opened the virtual machine |
| 08:25.34 | bogdan_91 | i haven't done any other moves |
| 08:25.40 | bogdan_91 | just typed the command |
| 08:25.44 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 6481 /wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas: couple tangible python tasks |
| 08:27.06 | bogdan_91 | brlcad@brlcad-vm:~$ ls -la brlcad.svn |
| 08:27.06 | bogdan_91 | ls: cannot access brlcad.svn: No such file or directory |
| 08:27.15 | bogdan_91 | this is what i see now |
| 08:30.22 | bogdan_91 | brlcad: Desktop brlcad-code-examples |
| 08:30.23 | bogdan_91 | Downloads brlcad-config.sh |
| 08:30.23 | bogdan_91 | README-VM.txt brlcad-config.sh~ |
| 08:30.23 | bogdan_91 | README-brlcad-development.txt brlcad-svn-trunk |
| 08:30.23 | bogdan_91 | Templates t.g |
| 08:30.46 | bogdan_91 | looks like I'm in home |
| 08:30.54 | bogdan_91 | after a simple ls command |
| 08:35.20 | brlcad | looks like the directory was renamed to "brlcad-svn-trunk" |
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| 08:36.16 | brlcad | please update the wiki page to match, others will certainly appreciate :) |
| 08:40.59 | bogdan_91 | sure :) |
| 08:41.42 | neha__ | Hello! I am Neha Agarwal from Dhirubhai Ambani Institute of Information and Communication Technology, Gandhinagar, India. |
| 08:42.15 | neha__ | I am interested in working on the project on user interface brushup. |
| 08:50.11 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:141.85.0.116 * 6482 /wiki/Deuces: |
| 08:50.42 | bogdan_91 | brlcad: done the update to the wiki page |
| 08:53.48 | bogdan_91 | Hello neha__ , I'm also interested on this project to work this summer and a good start is to look here http://brlcad.org/wiki/Deuces |
| 08:57.13 | bogdan_91 | brlcad: do you recommend to choose a task from 'code' from here: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Deuces, and try to do it? or should I chose to fix a bug for a start? |
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| 11:40.34 | ishwerdas | hi brlcad |
| 12:11.44 | ``Erik | maths22: if the self-signed ssl cert for brlcad.org is an issue, we can set it up under elfga.com (has a valid comodo cert) |
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| 12:53.31 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Starseeker * 0 /wiki/NURBS_Intersections: Work is now much more in boolean evals than intersections themselves |
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| 13:01.07 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Solving david * 6486 /wiki/Cisco_100-101_Certification_exam: Created page with "The 100-101 Interconnecting Cisco Networking Devices Part 1 (ICND1) is the exam associated with the CCENT certification and a tangible first step in achieving the CCNA Routing..." |
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| 15:35.51 | brlcad | oof |
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| 16:28.41 | mpictor | ``Erik: free SSL certs https://konklone.com/post/switch-to-https-now-for-free |
| 16:57.48 | brlcad | fyi, sagonet has been under a DDoS attack for the past few hours |
| 16:58.07 | brlcad | just spoke with them on the phone, they're trying to get a handle on it (obviously) |
| 16:58.17 | ries | starseeker: Sorry guys, client called... I will look at www.gecode.org |
| 16:58.23 | brlcad | maybe fixed now, maybe just temporary relief |
| 16:58.39 | brlcad | ries: that was a LONG phone call ;) |
| 16:58.55 | ries | brlcad: call + work... I am a freelancer, if I don't work I don't get $$$ |
| 17:00.08 | brlcad | ries: have you and/or your folks come up with some gsoc project ideas? |
| 17:00.17 | brlcad | i think the last time I looked, you'd stubbed a page and it was empty |
| 17:02.13 | ries | brlcad: I wanted to create a page but the wiki didn't allow me |
| 17:03.25 | ``Erik | mpictor: saw those before, I'm using a 'comodo' cert via namecheap, it's like $10/yr and probably trips less flags *shrug* :) gone are the days of the $300/yr cert! |
| 17:06.34 | ``Erik | (though that link would be good for brlcad to look at for a "legit" brlcad.org cert ;) ) |
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| 18:43.02 | ries | brlcad: happen to be here? |
| 18:44.21 | brlcad | yep |
| 18:44.34 | brlcad | about to run out to a meeting, though |
| 18:44.56 | starseeker | ries: project question? |
| 18:45.19 | ries | starseeker: is there a way we can do a phonecall and get thing's cleared up? |
| 18:45.33 | starseeker | uh... not easily. what's wrong with irc? |
| 18:45.55 | ries | starseeker: Where can I see/read if LibreCAD is going to be part og GSOC? |
| 18:46.02 | brlcad | ries: you'll be getting an e-mail from me later today |
| 18:46.33 | ries | I have a developer paging me wanting to start on the kernel thing... (I do O brlcad a better explanation, but that's not something done in a evening). |
| 18:46.37 | brlcad | ries: yes, you are (assuming you still want to) |
| 18:47.31 | ries | brlcad: yes I want to, yes I am not.. yes I don't know what's expected from me, yes I don't know what's expected from the dev, yes I don't know if this is a resonable project for GSoC in teh first place |
| 18:48.03 | ries | brlcad: I will wait for your mail... |
| 18:48.40 | brlcad | ries: okay :) |
| 18:48.51 | brlcad | sorry you feel like you're in the dark |
| 18:49.03 | ries | no need to be sorry, but I do feel in the dark :) |
| 18:49.08 | brlcad | we'll get it sorted out |
| 18:49.18 | brlcad | brl-cad was accepted for gsoc |
| 18:49.41 | brlcad | I'd extended an offer for librecad to participate under our umbrella if we were again accepted |
| 18:49.52 | brlcad | we were accepted, so you're good to go |
| 18:50.05 | brlcad | there is a gsoc mentor guide, you can read that in the meantime |
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| 18:51.13 | brlcad | the rest is our own arrangement, like how we'll operate as an umbrella |
| 18:51.46 | brlcad | gotta run, but yeah -- expect an e-mail within 10 hours ;) |
| 18:51.46 | ries | brlcad: so, you agree that I and Gaganx will work on the new LibreCAD kernel, even though it will not be a finnished project ( a working new LibreCAD) and that Dli (head of 2.x) and Rallaz (DXF dev) are not part of it? |
| 18:51.51 | ries | Just want to be sure we are on the sam epage |
| 18:52.00 | ries | brlcad: you run... I will wait |
| 18:52.08 | starseeker | ries: did you get a chance to check out gecode? Don't know if it would fit with the kernel direction you're looking at, but I've always wondered if constraints along the lines of sketchsolve (http://code.google.com/p/sketchsolve/) could be defined in the gecode framework (letting gecode do the "heavy lifting" of the constraint solving, as it were.) |
| 18:53.10 | ries | starseeker: briefly only, but currently it's not a mayur concenrn... |
| 18:53.36 | ries | Our current concern is to have a LibreCAD kernel where we can load/store entities and do all basic operations currently available in LibreCAD |
| 18:53.36 | starseeker | nods - out of scope for the project you have in mind? |
| 18:53.43 | *** join/#brlcad gaganjyot (~gagan@101.214.44.90) |
| 18:53.47 | ries | it's currently out of scope.. |
| 18:54.10 | ries | it does fit in our idea's though |
| 18:54.18 | starseeker | cool |
| 18:54.24 | starseeker | maybe someday :-) |
| 18:56.44 | ries | starseeker: I ahve a placeholder for additional meta data (any data) that can be attached to a entity (line, cirlce etc..) |
| 18:57.06 | ries | I think that a2D kernel can be relative simple in term sof the number of operation's and the complexity of entities.. |
| 18:57.17 | ries | We are planning to do 2D, just 2D and that's it... |
| 18:58.37 | ishwerdas | gaganjyot: Hi |
| 19:06.40 | gaganjyot | hello ishwerdas :) |
| 19:09.14 | ishwerdas | nice to see you working on LibreCAD, you know about OGV, right? |
| 19:11.40 | gaganjyot | yes |
| 19:11.55 | gaganjyot | ishwerdas: Online geometry viewer ? right ? |
| 19:12.03 | ishwerdas | Exactly! |
| 19:12.44 | gaganjyot | Its pretty nice! |
| 19:13.07 | gaganjyot | Harmanpreet has done a very great job |
| 19:13.28 | gaganjyot | I use it to view my building models on the go |
| 19:13.45 | gaganjyot | or when I don't have brlcad installed on someones computer :P |
| 19:14.16 | ishwerdas | wow, great! |
| 19:15.44 | ishwerdas | We are also looking forward to build a mediawiki extension for it. |
| 19:15.52 | ishwerdas | It's going to be more awesome. |
| 19:16.34 | gaganjyot | nice to hear that :) |
| 19:17.06 | gaganjyot | I feel there must be some interpreter / Shell |
| 19:17.23 | ishwerdas | Yes, exactly what I feel. |
| 19:17.32 | ishwerdas | Have you seen codepen.io |
| 19:17.39 | gaganjyot | so that I could run basic commands that I give in MGED window in browser |
| 19:17.40 | ishwerdas | or sites like jsfiddle |
| 19:17.46 | ishwerdas | exactly! |
| 19:17.49 | gaganjyot | it would make me feel like home :) |
| 19:19.12 | ishwerdas | I was thinking of same split screen experience, writing mged commands on one side and seeing your model edited in the other window. Harman in his original proposal also had plans for full GUI for editing too but for a start a shell that accepts mged commands would be a great asset. |
| 19:20.33 | ishwerdas | Before all that ambition and ideas we need a good solid foundation. |
| 19:26.58 | ishwerdas | gaganjyot: I was actually working around the concept of generating 3d models of 2d drawings or vice versa for OGV. |
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| 20:41.11 | brlcad | ries: so to help clear things up -- can you give me a one or two sentence summary of what you know about gsoc, what it is? what these project ideas are? what your involvement is? |
| 20:41.25 | brlcad | real short summary, just to make sure there's not some fundamental misunderstanding |
| 20:42.31 | ries | gsoc : Google supported supper of code for students. The require a mentor to work on open source projects |
| 20:43.13 | brlcad | heh, tasty |
| 20:43.16 | ries | the project idea's are the help open source project implement specific ideas by students where mentor's help them with the code and project |
| 20:43.42 | ries | there ya go, top of my head! |
| 20:43.55 | brlcad | okay, so same page there |
| 20:44.32 | brlcad | you threw me for a little bit asking if I agreed with what you, ganax, dli, and rallaz would be doing |
| 20:45.05 | brlcad | you guys can do whatever you like, participating in gsoc doesn't change or need to influence any of what you're working on |
| 20:45.23 | ries | brlcad: understood... I am just wondering if it's sort of required for BRLCAD that we as librecad agreed, but I didn't got a response from Dli and Rallas in my last mail's about it... |
| 20:46.15 | ries | Obviosuly I don't know what BRLCAD's idea's are in this area... may be you just want librecad to do something else in benefit of brlcad. eg, not sure what was internally discussed between brlcad and LibreCAD (dli and rallas) |
| 20:50.00 | brlcad | ries: okay, so I guess you missed the original discussion |
| 20:50.04 | ries | brlcad: do I report back to you? |
| 20:51.31 | ries | brlcad: I guess.... |
| 20:51.36 | brlcad | my intention for reaching out to you, openscad, and stepcode is to merely open a line of communication, to encourage us to collaborate more or better than we have in the past |
| 20:51.45 | brlcad | which has basically been somewhat ignore each other |
| 20:52.09 | brlcad | we all operate in a huge domain that is sorely under-represented in the world of open source |
| 20:52.44 | brlcad | it's my belief that we can do far more together than we can individually, even if our needs and interests are focused in different areas of CAx |
| 20:53.14 | brlcad | so for gsoc, i'm not trying to control or meddle in your development |
| 20:54.05 | brlcad | you keep doing what you're doing, we keep doing what we're doing, but we at least aware of what each other is doing |
| 20:54.46 | brlcad | long-term, I'd hope we could help bridge our codes closer, whether directly or indirectly |
| 20:55.44 | brlcad | if we can share data, that's great; if we can share code and get collaboration or modular reuse, even better |
| 20:56.08 | brlcad | that's my motivation |
| 20:56.19 | ries | brlcad: that's a noble idea.... I support that.. |
| 20:56.21 | brlcad | so you don't "report back" but we will "keep in touch" |
| 20:56.29 | kintel | ries: what role do you have in LibreCAD btw.? |
| 20:57.22 | ries | kintel: in short, I did the full release on 1.0.0 and did the complete fork and made a working version that could run off QT4. Then I stpped away from development and let dli do teh 2.x release. |
| 20:57.40 | ries | At this moment me responsibilites are mainting the websites (wiki, translation server and blog) |
| 20:57.58 | ries | I also take in the donation's |
| 20:58.16 | brlcad | ries: dli has contributed to brl-cad in the past, so in a sense we already have a little bit of minimal collaboration going on |
| 20:58.24 | kintel | ries: I'm the maintainer of OpenSCAD, and one of the suggested projects for GSoC is integration with dxflib |
| 20:58.47 | kintel | ries: As far as I understand, you also forked dxflib, right? ..so it would make sense to use LibreCAD dxflib for us? |
| 20:59.33 | ries | kintel: I forked everything at the time, but rallaz is making a new dxf library, I think that's the one you are talking about |
| 21:00.02 | brlcad | we'd totally use dxflib if it weren't gpl :) |
| 21:00.10 | kintel | ries: I didn't look at the source code yet - I just know that QCad used to have a dxflib |
| 21:00.26 | brlcad | still does |
| 21:01.12 | ries | kintel: are you sure you are not talking about libdxfrw ? |
| 21:01.36 | kintel | anyway, just wanted to highlight a potential collaboration, even though it's mostly one-way in this case. A lot of OpenSCAD users use QCad/LibreCAD to create 2D geometry and make it 3D in openscad |
| 21:02.00 | brlcad | ries: rallaz might want to take a quick peek at our dxf converters if he's working on something new -- our importer was a fair bit more robust than qcad's at least as of a few years ago |
| 21:02.14 | brlcad | just not nearly as featured, lots of entities we don't care about |
| 21:02.23 | kintel | ries: I just looked at your github and see that dxflib is empty and libdxfrw has code in it, so yes :) |
| 21:02.49 | ries | libdxfrw is Rallaz his work.. |
| 21:03.38 | brlcad | ries: what' |
| 21:03.43 | brlcad | what's the license on the new work? |
| 21:04.19 | kintel | ries brlcad: btw., this is a DXF RW library I was involved in some years back - it was recently BSD licensed (and abandoned, but the code is there): https://bitbucket.org/Coin3D/dime |
| 21:04.24 | brlcad | if that could be made bsd/mit/apache, we would take an interest |
| 21:04.25 | ries | brlcad: gplv2 or higher |
| 21:04.55 | ries | ... for libdxfrw |
| 21:05.02 | brlcad | kintel: abandoned because? |
| 21:05.52 | kintel | the company backing it decided to stop using it, but my ex colleagues managed to convince them to bsd license it instead of bury it |
| 21:06.07 | ries | brlcad: I know in the past studen't would get some fee from google for their work and also projects. Now I don't care money for LibreCAD, we have enough for our servers etc... but does a students still get a fee? |
| 21:06.11 | kintel | (together with the rest of Coin3D) |
| 21:06.27 | brlcad | one of our current development initiatives is the creation of a "universal geometry conversion library" leveraging our 20+ converters (including step, stl, dxf, iges, etc) |
| 21:06.35 | brlcad | LIBGCV |
| 21:06.57 | brlcad | we'll have the API for that and a preliminary implementation sometime this summer |
| 21:07.23 | brlcad | kintel: should we be looking at dime? worth picking it back up? |
| 21:08.13 | brlcad | ries: yes, students are paid to participate in gsoc, 5500 USD |
| 21:08.21 | brlcad | 500 if they're selected |
| 21:08.44 | brlcad | 2500 at the midpoint and 2500 at the final evaluations, if they pass both |
| 21:09.16 | brlcad | they're failed, they're out |
| 21:10.00 | brlcad | at least I think those are the numbers |
| 21:10.18 | brlcad | checks |
| 21:11.34 | brlcad | ahh, interesting .. it's changed, now 500 then 2250 then 2750 |
| 21:14.35 | ries | brlcad: how is this going to work for my student? |
| 21:14.36 | brlcad | ries: I'll have more details about that in the e-mail tonight, but basically you guys are participating to get code, possibly new long-term devs, and familiarity with gsoc, not for money |
| 21:15.01 | brlcad | as this is your first gsoc, that's also part the reason for 1-2 slots, which is what google does for all new orgs |
| 21:15.50 | ries | I will read about that |
| 21:16.09 | brlcad | so you're going to announce/promote your participation and seek out students, maybe have people put up flyers around campus, e-mail people you know, or just hope people apply based on the ideas page -- you decide how much and how to promote |
| 21:16.29 | brlcad | students then draft a proposal to work on librecad |
| 21:16.45 | brlcad | they can literally propose anything, they own it |
| 21:17.15 | brlcad | our ideas page are just suggestions to (hopefully) help start a conversation or initate more in-depth research into a good project description |
| 21:18.03 | brlcad | there will be N proposals submitted from students for our four orgs |
| 21:18.32 | ries | brlcad: great... gaganjyot is anxious to start working on LibreCAD... |
| 21:18.33 | brlcad | the proposals get ranked, discussed, and selected (we do this) |
| 21:19.23 | brlcad | ries: no promises until you see all the proposals, and selections are announced .. you want as many proposals as possible to choose from |
| 21:20.12 | brlcad | the students are usually quite passionate, that's to be expected -- your job is to evaluate them and be critical |
| 21:20.38 | *** join/#brlcad Anaphaxeton (~george@unaffiliated/anaphaxeton) |
| 21:20.40 | brlcad | it's basically an interview process and there are lots of candidates for 1-2 slots |
| 21:20.47 | brlcad | (hopefully) |
| 21:22.08 | ries | ok |
| 21:22.09 | brlcad | I strongly recommend requiring them to submit a patch to your code as part of their proposal submission so you can see how they code, evaluate their ability level, see how they are socially (if they're a fit) |
| 21:22.35 | brlcad | gsoc attracts ALL skill levels and personalities, some very desirable, some not at all compatible |
| 21:23.42 | brlcad | this is big money for most of them, but you usually want to weed out the ones that are really just in it for the summer money |
| 21:25.01 | brlcad | and that's not at all easy to do -- they'll all tell you they'll keep coding on librecad for the rest of their lives |
| 21:25.29 | ries | I whish they did it in my time, so I didn't had to go bollen pellen :D |
| 21:25.34 | brlcad | some are genuinely interested and the money just helps pay their bills so they can do what they love |
| 21:26.25 | brlcad | haha |
| 21:26.27 | brlcad | had to look that up |
| 21:27.28 | kintel | brlcad: was afk - dime used to be pretty solid, but hasn't been touched in a while so I'm uncertain how it tackles new versions etc., I haven't used it in a decade or so.. |
| 21:28.19 | ries | Most people that say they want to work on LibreCAD don't stick... I am used to that... |
| 21:28.38 | brlcad | kintel: hm, so maybe worthwhile .. our geometry conversion library is being implemented as a plugin library, so we might do well (next year) to evaluate a plugin using your dxf parser against ours |
| 21:29.08 | brlcad | ries: different orgs participate in gsoc for different reasons, you can use whatever criteria you like of course |
| 21:30.04 | brlcad | you can read about our criteria, our motivation here: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code |
| 21:32.34 | brlcad | kintel: ries: would you both take a look over http://brlcad.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code/Expectations and see if anything doesn't apply to your community? or anything you don't agree with? or anything you don't care about? |
| 21:33.08 | ries | reading... |
| 21:33.09 | brlcad | it underscores our "point" for participating |
| 21:33.17 | brlcad | and the framework for doing it |
| 21:36.12 | ries | your version control... I whish that the people I work with would do it like that :D |
| 21:37.30 | kintel | Expectations look nice. I'd most likely perfer feature branches and pull requests over direct pushes to master, but apart from that it looks similar to what I'd like |
| 21:38.43 | brlcad | kintel: does it mention pushes to master/trunk somewhere? |
| 21:39.11 | kintel | "This also means that students should be working with the other developers on the mainline code, not on a branch" |
| 21:40.25 | kintel | oh, you're on svn.. |
| 21:43.26 | brlcad | kintel: fixed the language |
| 21:44.19 | brlcad | we have a git mirror, but most development is funneled to trunk as quickly and frequently as possible |
| 21:44.39 | *** join/#brlcad bogdan_91 (~bogdan@141.85.219.159) |
| 21:44.57 | brlcad | that's exactly what I was looking to catch, anything specific to our setup |
| 21:48.07 | brlcad | kintel: fwiw, we use branches heavily -- that language (and the mentioning of non-branching work) is more to head up common gsoc student behavior -- some are *exceptionally* shy/nervous/introverted/whatever, so you have to get them out of their shell or it just results in major problems (they risk getting failed or writing code that cannot be integrated) if they are allowed to play in a sandbox for too long |
| 21:48.19 | brlcad | we had that happen our first couple years |
| 21:50.10 | brlcad | actively had to prohibit them, several students failed (which is the worst outcome) |
| 21:50.46 | brlcad | we learned they needed to be put on a stage to actually get them to not just perform but peform well .. some just are not used to open source at all |
| 21:51.52 | brlcad | anything else?\ |
| 21:58.39 | kintel | brlcad: I struggle to find the starting point linking these pages together |
| 21:59.27 | kintel | so, people will land here, right: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Project_Ideas |
| 21:59.39 | brlcad | kintel: we provide a checklist (which will not be applicable to you as-is currently) |
| 21:59.43 | kintel | ..whcih sends them here: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/brlcad-devel |
| 21:59.59 | brlcad | there are four pages in our checklist that I believe apply to all our projects |
| 22:00.36 | brlcad | but the language wasn't written that way, so I'm trying to find the subset that applies to all so we can have a shorter list -- then each org can have additional criteria on top |
| 22:00.40 | *** join/#brlcad ankush92 (~ankush@115.253.229.142) |
| 22:01.07 | brlcad | that requires tightening up the language to be more agnostic |
| 22:02.19 | kintel | The checklist sends people here: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code/Acceptance |
| 22:02.24 | *** part/#brlcad ankush92 (~ankush@115.253.229.142) |
| 22:02.30 | kintel | that page is pretty BRL-CAD specific |
| 22:02.46 | brlcad | that's one of the four |
| 22:03.15 | kintel | the concepts all apply to openscad as well, but with different links :) |
| 22:03.25 | brlcad | that's what I'm going for |
| 22:03.35 | brlcad | so the terms just change a little bit and apply to all |
| 22:04.15 | brlcad | e.g., on that one, the lgpl thing changes along with the svn terms |
| 22:04.26 | ankesh11 | brlcad: Update regarding my progress in the Benchmark Performance DB project. I built BRL-CAD and ran the benchmark on my machine. I am currently going through the benchmark.tr doc to try and make sense of the info. |
| 22:04.29 | kintel | ok, do you want anything from me in terms of slimming this down, or should I wait for the next rewrute |
| 22:04.46 | brlcad | and becomes license your work so we can use it and be familiar with the version control you're going to have to work with |
| 22:05.00 | brlcad | ankesh11: what was your VGR metric? |
| 22:05.42 | brlcad | kintel: just affirmation that Exepectations is okay first |
| 22:06.47 | ankesh11 | My VGR performance metric of 5672, and the Logarithmic VGR metric is 3.75 |
| 22:06.59 | ankesh11 | s/of/is |
| 22:07.24 | brlcad | then Guidelines, then Acceptance, then a generalized subset checklist |
| 22:07.33 | brlcad | ankesh11: ouch! |
| 22:07.38 | brlcad | ankesh11: was that an optimized build? |
| 22:08.02 | ankesh11 | Yeah, it was optimized build, I just wanted to run the benchmark at that moment |
| 22:08.13 | brlcad | sorry to hear that :) |
| 22:08.40 | kintel | brlcad: Do you have an automated testing framework, or a CI? |
| 22:08.54 | ankesh11 | Will try without the optimized flag as well then. |
| 22:09.01 | brlcad | ankesh11: so your computer is roughly equivalent to 5672 VAX 11/780 computers |
| 22:09.28 | brlcad | kintel: yeah we do |
| 22:10.05 | ankesh11 | I will have to run it on some other machines to see how that ranks. |
| 22:10.19 | kintel | It wasn't mentioned in expectations: Don't commit code if the tests don't pass. It's a classic beginner error to ignore tests and break stuff all over the place |
| 22:10.36 | brlcad | ankesh11: *nod* .. it's a linear metric so if you see a VGR of 11000 .. that computer is twice as fast as yours |
| 22:11.06 | kintel | brlcad: I guess it's especially important for openscad since we don't have a CI and rely on all developers running their own tests |
| 22:11.26 | ankesh11 | Right. Meanwhile, I saw a string of updates to the ideas page, but none to the benchmark project page, when can I see an updated project description? It well help me identifying the goals of the project better. |
| 22:11.27 | brlcad | kintel: because we don't strictly require that .. that's a conversation I'd rather have because it can be complicated |
| 22:11.46 | brlcad | and it's already a fruckton of text :) |
| 22:12.09 | kintel | brlcad: ok, gottit. I guess we have slightly different strategies ;) |
| 22:12.10 | brlcad | ankesh11: it's your proposal, you don't have to wait for our ideas |
| 22:12.15 | brlcad | you can come up with your own ideas |
| 22:12.31 | brlcad | kintel: I'd hope so ;) |
| 22:13.14 | ankesh11 | Fair enough. But would it be right for me to assume the goals of the project are the same as mentioned and haven't changed? |
| 22:13.39 | brlcad | kintel: I talk about that a bit in our dev guidelines (our HACKING file), which is in the checklist too, but doesn't apply to you obviously |
| 22:14.33 | kintel | brlcad: ok, Expectations is good to go from my side. On of my primary motivations for this is to actually have such docs for OpenSCAD (including a HACKING file) at the end of this :) |
| 22:14.36 | brlcad | kintel: basically, we're set up for velocity, reactive not preventive .. they're only requirement is that they've made a "reasonable" evaluation that their commit compiles (either by compiling or it's a trivial commit) |
| 22:15.18 | brlcad | not that it works across our entire farm of portability infrastructure .. we run on a crazy variety of platforms, no way any dev would have access to all of them |
| 22:15.48 | kintel | brlcad: I see - I'm set up for optimization of my own time since I have so little of it, so I prefer the master branch to always be releaseable |
| 22:15.53 | brlcad | they just have to be reactive if a problem is encountered (which is usually "you broke the windows build, here's the error, fix it or revert") |
| 22:16.19 | brlcad | we have a STABLE branch that has strict releasabilty criteria |
| 22:16.29 | brlcad | a RELEASE branch staging area |
| 22:16.40 | kintel | ah, right, makes sense - we've got unstable + master :) |
| 22:18.15 | brlcad | I found that optimizing for my time discourages collaboration, so we aligned with the freebsd model, but I totally get the merits of the strict trunk method too -- to each their own ;) |
| 22:18.46 | mpictor | kintel: regarding CI, Travis-CI has github integration and is pretty easy to set up |
| 22:19.27 | mpictor | brlcad: do I need to do anything about an expectations document for STEPcode? I don't recall doing it last year |
| 22:19.43 | brlcad | mpictor: you can check it over as well |
| 22:19.47 | kintel | mpictor: I'm trying to use that. The channenge so far is that Travis don't allow us to leave behind any files |
| 22:20.16 | kintel | mpictor: files, aka. test report |
| 22:20.16 | brlcad | mpictor: that's because stepcode was a guinea pig for collaboration, learned from you that we need some minimal common criteria so the students get a consistent picture |
| 22:20.37 | mpictor | now you tell me! :o |
| 22:20.41 | brlcad | haha |
| 22:21.07 | brlcad | that's all perspective after-the-fact |
| 22:21.08 | mpictor | that explains why I keep wanting to run in a wheel |
| 22:21.19 | mpictor | gotcha |
| 22:21.44 | brlcad | I think it went pretty well, but learned a lot that I think we can do better |
| 22:21.53 | brlcad | you're welcome to chime in on ways to improve as well |
| 22:22.04 | brlcad | I gotta run, but would love to hear what we should change |
| 22:22.09 | mpictor | that's right, I think some document last year made it sound like Kesha had to discuss on #brlcad and commit to the brlcad repo |
| 22:22.12 | brlcad | again, expect an e-mail later this evening |
| 22:22.18 | mpictor | k |
| 22:22.19 | brlcad | I hope I have everyone's e-mail :) |
| 22:22.49 | brlcad | ries: in case I don't have yours, would you send a blank to brlcad at |
| 22:22.52 | brlcad | mac dot com |
| 22:23.21 | brlcad | later all |
| 22:24.07 | mpictor | kintel: your test results don't print to the console? |
| 22:24.59 | kintel | mpictor: test results include rendering bitmaps of 3D models showing what failed |
| 22:25.08 | mpictor | oic |
| 22:25.28 | mpictor | that does complicate it |
| 22:25.32 | kintel | mpictor: basically one large html file (up to 1MB for larger failures) |
| 22:25.51 | kintel | I used dinkypage.com until now, but they silently started to drop our uploads : / |
| 22:26.22 | kintel | I guess I might have to set up a file server at some point, but that's against my rule of optimizing my own time : / |
| 22:26.29 | mpictor | heh |
| 22:27.08 | mpictor | you might be able to put something on a free instance of google app engine or amazon web service, but that would require writing some code |
| 22:27.58 | mpictor | wonders if travis-ci allows outgoing email... |
| 22:31.39 | ries | brlcad: I have mailed you, but you should have my address |
| 22:54.14 | starseeker | kintel, ries: what are your thoughts on licensing? ries, you had mentioned gplv2+ for libdxfrw - do you generally prefer gpl? |
| 22:55.01 | ries | starseeker: anything that help's a project.. recently I started to use BSD for some other project's myself |
| 22:55.23 | ries | I don't generalt prefer anything over a other.. as long as it benefit's a project I am good |
| 22:55.42 | ries | starseeker: what's the reason behind the question? |
| 22:56.45 | kintel | starseeker: we're gplv2+ today, with centralized copyright assignment. I'm still wondering where to go next. Both BSD and AGPL (with potential dual licensing) is on the radar. We have zero funding, so it kind of depends what will best make the project survive. |
| 22:56.46 | starseeker | Well, we're LGPL2.1 and we are leaning more liberal than that |
| 22:57.16 | starseeker | GPL is a non-starter for us in terms of code-reuse |
| 22:57.53 | ries | starseeker: for the code I am aiming at I am good to use anything else... |
| 22:57.57 | starseeker | still occasionally laments the inability to look at SISL NURBS and its friends at SINTEF |
| 22:58.03 | ries | for LibreCAD we had to use a GPL license due to the fork. |
| 22:58.10 | starseeker | remembers |
| 22:58.56 | starseeker | ultimately of course people can go with whatever they like to use, but unfortunately a lot of situations preclude GPL code |
| 22:59.07 | ries | Isn't LGPL not used more for libraries? |
| 22:59.21 | starseeker | a lot of BRL-CAD is libraries |
| 22:59.40 | ries | oook, that makes sense.. |
| 23:00.12 | starseeker | views GNU LibreDWG as the poster child for why GPL on CAD libraries inhibits collaboration... |
| 23:00.56 | starseeker | high priority project according to GNU, but *none* of the existing open source CAD projects could do much with it |
| 23:02.29 | starseeker | Would be OK (not ideal) if it were an actual application, but it's a library and of little use unless it is used within other applications |
| 23:02.45 | ries | starseeker: I had many mail conversations about that, tried to ask GNU for about 1.5 years to change the license (for us GPLv2) I even had a couple of mails with Mr Stallman if LibreCAD could be part of GNU |
| 23:02.57 | ries | apparently there is no why to change LibreDWG |
| 23:03.34 | ries | really a sad situation... |
| 23:04.27 | ries | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:04.28 | starseeker | nods - it seems to be a situation similar to readline and gcc - you end up with libedit and clang in the end |
| 23:04.31 | starseeker | nods |
| 23:06.59 | starseeker | kintel: it's basically a tradeoff of whether you get more by requiring contributions back or going more liberal and hoping for a clang-style situation where there's greater interest and contributions because it's the simple thing to do |
| 23:09.31 | starseeker | tends to think that it is so much work to maintain a separate fork of a large BSD project that it only makes sense if the plan is to ignore the original project and codebase altogether going forward |
| 23:18.01 | starseeker | kintel: in practice, OpenSCAD has a lot of GPL dependencies and LibreCAD has a lot of QCAD code so the more practical question is whether libraries with functionality (a.l.a STEPcode) can be focuses of mutual interest and advantage to all of us |
| 23:18.53 | kintel | starseeker: also, keep in mind that two of my suggested GSoC projects is about rewriting the two GPL components we use |
| 23:19.37 | kintel | starseeker: Even though I haven't decided where to go, I'd like to be in a position to make the switch :) |
| 23:19.49 | starseeker | nods - that's always the best position :-) |
| 23:19.56 | kintel | ..and those two GPL components cause a lot of headache : / |
| 23:20.01 | starseeker | heh |
| 23:20.12 | starseeker | CGAL and OpenCSG? |
| 23:20.17 | kintel | yep |
| 23:20.30 | kintel | CGAL is gplv3 and extremely slow, while opencsg is unmaintained |
| 23:20.51 | starseeker | IIRC, CGAL trades speed off for robustness |
| 23:21.12 | kintel | yep, they traded off smth. like two or three orders of magnitude |
| 23:21.20 | starseeker | ow |
| 23:23.41 | starseeker | kintel: did you ever take a look at using the SISL NURBS library? OpenSCAD wouldn't have had to avoid it the way we did, and I've always wondered if it is as impressive as their docs made it sound... |
| 23:24.35 | kintel | starseeker: I didn't, it just sounds to huge |
| 23:24.40 | starseeker | heh |
| 23:25.14 | starseeker | hmm - they're actually using the Affero GPL now... |
| 23:25.48 | kintel | starseeker: I guess they're a classic dual license outfit.. |
| 23:26.26 | starseeker | yes - AGPL for open source stuff and commercial license otherwise |
| 23:26.46 | kintel | starseeker: do you just want to render NURBS? |
| 23:27.03 | starseeker | render, raytrace, edit, import/export... |
| 23:27.26 | starseeker | we have quite a lot of good functionality now built on top of openNURBS |
| 23:27.37 | starseeker | doesn't lament SISL too much any more |
| 23:28.06 | starseeker | we have some work to do still (hence a number of our GSoC projects ;-) but things are looking very promising |
| 23:30.26 | starseeker | yeah, thought so - the AGPL is the same license TetGen just switched to |
| 23:31.33 | starseeker | the API for our new NURBS capabilities is still pretty rough-and-ready, and probably will be for a while |
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| 23:41.49 | ries | starseeker: I am at GMT-5, so it's dinner time for me.. I will idle in this channel so page me if you have any questions |
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