| 00:10.15 | brlcad | hcurtis: we need to talk more then .. that task was but a fraction of the complexity involved in your gsoc project and there was basically no discussion of any effort here |
| 00:13.33 | brlcad | so either there's a discussion issue that we'll have to fix or you're over your head with your gsoc project (as currently described) and we need to adjust objectives |
| 00:16.34 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60701 brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/D.pm: refactor the gcc processing code; add more debugging |
| 00:16.36 | brlcad | and lets not conflate this .. the fast4-g memory restructure was a very minor task, not a project. a one-day task (a couple hours) at most even with interactive discussion every step of the way to help you along. |
| 00:17.47 | brlcad | coding begins on Monday and this was a task to help you get ready ... quite relevant to working on gcv |
| 00:22.32 | hcurtis | brlcad: Ok |
| 00:30.55 | hcurtis | I see that you are NOT at all happy with me right now, and I understand. |
| 00:32.01 | hcurtis | There are some things I can tell you that *might* make my slow progress make more sense to you, but I don’t want to start discussing that until you have finished with what you have to say. |
| 01:04.43 | brlcad | hcurtis: it's not a matter of me being happy or unhappy at all, I was speaking very matter-of-fact (tone comes across IRC poorly) |
| 01:05.02 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 01:05.16 | brlcad | I want you to be successful and productive |
| 01:05.49 | brlcad | for both of those to happen, a certain amount of progress has to be made and a lot of effort is required on your part |
| 01:06.09 | hcurtis | Yes |
| 01:06.14 | brlcad | and it also means we need your project to be scoped realistically, not optimistically |
| 01:06.51 | brlcad | if you did work on the fastf4-g problem and made little/no progress, then there was at a minimum a communication failure on both our parts |
| 01:07.51 | brlcad | as you should be sharing what you learn and explore as you do that learning and exploring |
| 01:09.05 | hcurtis | Ok. That is something I have questions about, but I will let you finish. |
| 01:09.06 | brlcad | barring that, there's *no* difference between you working for 100 hours and making no progress and you working 0 hours .. so you got to communicate |
| 01:09.57 | brlcad | and if you did only work 0 hours or something close to it, well then we're back to "a lot of effort is required on your part" and we need to figure out where there are distractions or competiting priorities to see if there's anything we can do about them |
| 01:10.38 | brlcad | even if nobody is here responding, you can still sound-board your progress and it will get read |
| 01:11.20 | hcurtis | Yes |
| 01:13.02 | brlcad | when you have questions, and naturally we all would expect you (and others) to have them throughout ... you do a little homework/research, ask when you get stuck/confused/etc, and keep researching or work on something else in parallel (you should never be without something you can be doing) |
| 01:14.20 | brlcad | last comment: it's really okay if you DO sometimes end up having only put 0 hours into something when asked |
| 01:16.01 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 01:16.04 | brlcad | could be because you were working on something else, or off on vacation (should be in your schedule), etc |
| 01:16.21 | brlcad | the point is it's a discussion |
| 01:16.52 | brlcad | a never-ending incessant discussion like tweeting every moment of your productive life ;) |
| 01:17.12 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 01:17.36 | brlcad | later you get to convey most with commit messages and less frequent discussions, but getting started it's more work to stay engaged |
| 01:19.51 | brlcad | so something other than ok and yes to share? :) |
| 01:22.19 | hcurtis | Well, one thing I'd like to say is that I am fully aware that you are taking a big chance on me. The LAST thing I want to do is let you down or make you look bad. |
| 01:22.46 | brlcad | what's the chance? :) |
| 01:26.05 | brlcad | I said it before |
| 01:26.07 | brlcad | we don't care about your code |
| 01:26.12 | brlcad | we care about you |
| 01:27.15 | brlcad | the way to let us down is to not work hard, to not put the time in, to not be engaged in discussion, to not be honest about everything |
| 01:30.40 | hcurtis | I appreciate that. |
| 01:31.30 | hcurtis | When I referred to the “chance” you might be taking, I was referring to the fact that I was accepted into GSoC even though I am not as skilled as some of the other candidates. I’ll just leave it alone. |
| 01:37.49 | brlcad | skill only matters for determining how much progress you're capable of making |
| 01:37.51 | ``Erik | the important thing is to communicate effectively and put in a solid and honest effort |
| 01:38.16 | brlcad | and already said we don't care about how far you get |
| 01:38.29 | ``Erik | (that's why we're called mentors, not supervisors) |
| 01:39.17 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 01:40.56 | hcurtis | One major topic that I need guidance on is the reporting. Sean, you wrote earlier in this conversation that I need to be “sharing what [I] learn and explore as [I] do that learning and exploring.” |
| 01:42.01 | hcurtis | With what degree of specificity would you like me to do that? Can you show me a few examples of what you’re looking for? |
| 01:46.13 | ``Erik | hcurtis: the svn commit notices sprayed in channel are probably an acceptable model to start with for irc communication, with adjustment down the road as deemed necessary... keeping a daily (weekly is a minimum) journal is also good, which can be shoved in the wiki |
| 01:48.06 | hcurtis | I see. Thank you, Erik. |
| 01:55.55 | hcurtis | ``Erik: Unfortunately, I imagine I am still pretty far from being granted commit access. However, say I fixed a problem we’ll call x in a program named george.c. So for now I would just say in the channel “I fixed problem x in george.c”? |
| 01:58.08 | ``Erik | you say "I fixed problem x in george.c" and link to the patch on sourceforge... :) |
| 01:58.29 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 01:59.38 | ``Erik | the patch will need to apply cleanly to the latest revision, do what it advertises, follow convention as specified in HACKING, etc... |
| 02:01.44 | ``Erik | if you are uncomfortable with applying cleanly and have disk space to spare, you can keep a second 'clean' checkout to apply the patch to... |
| 02:02.05 | hcurtis | I see. |
| 02:02.33 | hcurtis | Thank you. |
| 02:02.34 | ``Erik | as far as convention; make sure it looks like code around it, there are no trailing whitespaces, the right tab/space usage is observed and it SHOULD be ok |
| 02:04.21 | hcurtis | I guess Sean left. |
| 02:04.23 | ``Erik | (some of the existing code in BRL-CAD doesn't exactly follow the HACKING spec, but it's less bad to follow a files format than it is to have mixed formats. does that make sense? |
| 02:04.54 | brlcad | not left, just multitasking, always |
| 02:05.06 | ``Erik | ) |
| 02:06.09 | brlcad | there's no formula for communicating effectively, just do it and we'll .. communicate .. if it needs to be more (usually) or less (exceptionally rare) |
| 02:07.35 | brlcad | you can read the "how to ask smart questions" paper by ESR (listed on the wiki somewhere or stfw) for help, but getting started is a bit different |
| 02:07.49 | brlcad | share your progress and discoveries as you work |
| 02:09.53 | hcurtis | ``Erik: Why would you say it is at all bad to follow a files format? I thought those were good because they promote consistency...unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by files format. |
| 02:09.58 | brlcad | maybe try giving an hourly update -- summarize what you did in the past hour in exactly one sentence, every hour |
| 02:10.26 | hcurtis | brlcad: Ok |
| 02:11.05 | ``Erik | I mean things like indentation, bracket cuddling, etc |
| 02:13.13 | ``Erik | hm, mebbe I phrased it a bit odd... Almost every file follows hacking... for those few that do not follow hacking, it's better to use their style than it is to have mixed styles in a single file |
| 02:13.14 | brlcad | hcurtis: if a file's format is completely wrong (like newlines instead of spaces EVERYWHERE) ... it's "slighly less bad" to follow that file's convention than it is to start mixing in other conventions |
| 02:13.21 | brlcad | you want the whole file to be consistent |
| 02:13.53 | brlcad | fixing the whole file might be in order, but that might be a task in itself |
| 02:14.16 | ``Erik | if you do find a file that doesn't follow hacking, fixing it could be a good patch all by itself |
| 02:14.42 | hcurtis | I understand now. |
| 02:15.59 | ``Erik | (communication! huzzah!) |
| 02:27.31 | hcurtis | I have something I need to take care of, but I should be back within a half hour. |
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| 02:57.49 | hcurtis | I'm back. |
| 04:05.59 | hcurtis | This question is for anyone and everyone. What build environment do you use? |
| 04:07.27 | hcurtis | I should be more specific. What build environment do you use for BRL-CAD? |
| 05:06.14 | hcurtis | brlcad: I’m checking in with an update. I've continued to go through my saved GSoC documents and collect information that is helping me get ready for coding. |
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| 06:13.27 | fenn | i haven't seen this answered anywhere; is there a general intention to support ARM architecture in the future? (is it supported already?) |
| 06:19.26 | fenn | it's now possible to buy a commodity low-power "pc stick" for under $100 with quad-core 1.8GHz processors, GPU, and 2GB of ram and various peripherals. i'm thinking these would be more than adequate for CAD work of moderate complexity, good for schools etc |
| 07:06.40 | hcurtis_ | brlcad: I’m checking in with another update. I have been re-reading a document called HACKING_BRL-CAD.pdf, and I re-read my proposal. |
| 07:08.26 | hcurtis_ | brlcad: By the way, what you wrote earlier today about an “interactive discussion every step of the way to help you along” sounds AWESOME. I didn't think that was at all an option because you have said repeatedly that I am to try to answer my questions on my own. |
| 07:10.28 | hcurtis_ | brlcad: Considering that idea of a step-by-step discussion, I have an idea. As part of my GSoC project, I will implement support for three different formats. If you show me how to do an easy one, I could then take what I will have learned and do the others by myself. Is that out of the question? |
| 07:11.46 | hcurtis_ | brlcad: Also, you never did say whether my last patch (fixing spelling errors) was usable. |
| 07:14.09 | hcurtis | brlcad: I am going to get something to eat now and will return in half an hour. |
| 07:48.42 | hcurtis | I'm back. |
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| 08:56.33 | hcurtis | brlcad: Update: I continued re-reading HACKING_BRL-CAD.pdf. Now I am going to bed. |
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| 13:04.19 | starseeker | slides from libressl talk: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00001.html |
| 13:08.30 | starseeker | sounds like has the right attitude for the job... |
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| 14:24.25 | teepee | interresting read those slides |
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| 15:38.27 | ``Erik | http://readdle.com/products/calendars5/ (ios app) is free for a 48 hour window O.o |
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| 15:41.02 | ``Erik | (libressl is using magicpoint? wow, I used that a long time ago, surprised it's still being used) |
| 16:05.12 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60702 brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/D.pm: add function to used dstep for conversion |
| 16:06.29 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60703 brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/makefile: currently interface file sources are in a subdir |
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