| 00:05.14 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60745 (brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/Phobos.pm =================================================================== and 68 others): add hash of Phobos (D std library) module names |
| 00:57.52 | hcurtis | brlcad: Update: I've continued to re-read http://svn.code.sf.net/p/brlcad/code/brlcad/trunk/HACKING, but I didn't get as much done as I would've liked. A friend wouldn't quit texting me, and I eventually had to just shut off my phone. |
| 01:00.07 | hcurtis | brlcad: I'm going to get something to eat. I'll be back in a half hour. |
| 01:28.10 | hcurtis | brlcad: I'm back. |
| 01:40.57 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60746 (brlcad/trunk/include/rt/db_diff.h brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/diff3_callbacks.c brlcad/trunk/src/librt/db_diff.c): Follow the API pattern. |
| 01:45.55 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60747 brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/diff_callbacks.c: Rework to try to handle the case where an attribute-only and a non-attribute-only collide. |
| 01:49.51 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60748 brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/D.pm: put storage info for paths into own module |
| 02:03.29 | brlcad | hcurtis: you don't need to address me specifically and tell me every time you leave to pee ... you should be sharing the progress you make, what you learn, what you worked on |
| 02:03.54 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 02:05.14 | brlcad | hcurtis: for example, from your messages from the past four hours, all you did was read our HACKING file and have some coffee |
| 02:05.39 | hcurtis | When you say the progress I make, can you be more specific? Please give me a sample sentence. |
| 02:07.17 | brlcad | honestly, i'm a little flabbergasted to answer |
| 02:07.46 | brlcad | there's not a formula, this isn't choose your own adventure fill-in-the-blanks |
| 02:08.11 | brlcad | share what you did (that others might POSSIBLY care about) |
| 02:08.29 | brlcad | here we are at the end of the first day -- what did you do? |
| 02:10.07 | hcurtis | I will have to leave for a while in about 20 minutes. Just a heads up. |
| 02:11.04 | brlcad | okay, sure |
| 02:11.08 | brlcad | and? :) |
| 02:12.04 | hcurtis | Also, for me this is not the end of the day. I will be working for several more hours. |
| 02:12.20 | brlcad | kinda irrelevant to the point and question |
| 02:12.57 | brlcad | that's not a hypothetical question, I'm honestly interested in hearing what you've done thus far today |
| 02:13.08 | brlcad | besides read hacking, turn off your phone, and get some coffee |
| 02:15.26 | hcurtis | I'm not sure whether you read my explanation from yesterday of why I'm reading the documents. Or maybe it didn't matter. |
| 02:18.21 | hcurtis | One reason I told you I have to go soon is that we need to have the conversation that you said we needed to have about the direction of my project. That will probably take more than 15 minutes. |
| 02:19.16 | brlcad | is still waiting to hear a summary of "what" before digging into "why" |
| 02:20.39 | brlcad | we seem to be having a big communication disconnect here |
| 02:21.10 | hcurtis | I agree. |
| 02:21.47 | brlcad | I'm really confused, as you keep dodging the request |
| 02:22.27 | brlcad | I can be more blunt, but that usually comes off sounding harsh and that is not the intent |
| 02:22.35 | brlcad | we need to be able to communicate effectively |
| 02:22.39 | brlcad | which is a two-way process |
| 02:22.54 | hcurtis | What I have done today is read the hacking file. |
| 02:22.57 | brlcad | you agreeing or apologizing or listening is not going to get us there |
| 02:23.07 | brlcad | and anything else? |
| 02:23.17 | hcurtis | No. |
| 02:23.27 | hcurtis | I am behind. I get that. |
| 02:23.35 | brlcad | there is no subtext |
| 02:24.22 | brlcad | we need clarity ... i have no knowlege of what you're doing or not doing other than what you say and dancing around the questions because you're afraid it implies something else does not move our conversation forward |
| 02:24.47 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 02:25.41 | brlcad | e.g., "all I got to today was reading (re-reading?) through the hacking file, and reading up on X Y Z as a result" |
| 02:26.00 | hcurtis | It's the truth. |
| 02:26.04 | brlcad | there's a good place to inject / reiterate commentary on "why?" |
| 02:26.20 | brlcad | but still ... the summary is needed first |
| 02:27.51 | hcurtis | One major topic I read about were the coding conventions. |
| 02:28.18 | brlcad | anything but the truth is a quick way for anyone to find themselves in jeopardy .. |
| 02:28.25 | brlcad | open source embraces brutal honesty |
| 02:28.38 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 02:29.04 | hcurtis | I have to go in a moment. |
| 02:29.13 | brlcad | there's nothing to be ashamed or embarrased about, so long as you are being usefully productive (to yourself and/or to the project) |
| 02:30.14 | brlcad | we can pick this up later, but two points I'd like to make quick before you bolt |
| 02:31.13 | brlcad | 1) please include your summary in your dev log (which is expected of everyone that they update daily) along with why (not in vague terms), as concisely/tersely as possible |
| 02:32.44 | brlcad | 2) I get a sense that you need a short-term objective -- something that will take you less than three days |
| 02:33.02 | brlcad | every action you take, every bit of research should be directly attestable to that goal |
| 02:33.31 | brlcad | otherwise you could wander in the wilderness learning and reading and make absolutely zero useful progress |
| 02:34.11 | brlcad | I think that fast4-g memory task is probably a good one, but you're welcome to suggest something better |
| 02:36.40 | brlcad | starseeker: ugh |
| 02:37.16 | brlcad | starseeker: PATH becomes the "one of these is not like the others" then and you know how much I hate one-offs .. high-cost, low-utility |
| 02:39.30 | hcurtis | brlcad: I am back. I postponed what I was going to leave to do. Let's keep talking. |
| 02:39.32 | brlcad | is there no non-file-based approach where we can get the value? what is CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX set to? |
| 02:53.47 | brlcad | hcurtis: that's another point, we expect and trust everyone to be working so you really don't need to share the trivialities of your day (coffee, lunch, back, not back, whatever) |
| 02:54.01 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 02:54.10 | hcurtis | I'm learning. |
| 02:54.26 | brlcad | it just becomes filler noise and is not a substitute for meaningful productivty summaries that are the interest |
| 02:56.48 | brlcad | what I find surprising is that you've been working for a number of hours today (reading hacking), but not a single question crossed your mind that you couldn't find the answer to, not a single opinion about anything you found interesting/offensive/reasonable/confusing/etc ... |
| 02:57.19 | brlcad | that's where the hour-by-hour commentary can become useful to YOU |
| 02:57.52 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 02:58.10 | brlcad | you're not going to have time to investigate everything to completion before you begin working -- you NEED to leverage others and work quickly (and learn to work even more quickly) |
| 03:00.54 | hcurtis | I have things I can tell you. Do you want me to wait for you to finish or respond now? |
| 03:03.24 | starseeker | brlcad: I don't think there's a non file based approach - the build system itself is altered based on that path, and it's known with certainty *only* at build time on multi-config systems |
| 03:06.04 | starseeker | in that sense, path really *isn't* like the others - all the others can be set (iirc) at configure time |
| 03:07.40 | starseeker | that was a monumental pain to deal with - probably the single biggest issue specific to multi-configuration building, with the possible exception of one-per-potential-build-type setup of the build directories |
| 03:08.42 | starseeker | brlcad: for that matter, I think we might have an issue with some of the other includes - they seem to be getting touched/updated everytime CMake is run, which triggers a re-build of most of the source files |
| 03:09.16 | starseeker | there should have been some logic that ended up with the include/conf/* files being updated only when something actually changed their contents, to avoid unnecessary rebuilding |
| 03:09.24 | starseeker | will check it tomorrow... |
| 03:16.14 | starseeker | we may need to kick around a bit why I did what I did there and what you were hoping to get to... |
| 03:17.13 | hcurtis | brlcad: Did you just want to talk later? |
| 03:19.38 | starseeker | was hoping to eventually document that path trick and a couple other CMake bits in more detail - flowchart/circuit diagram graphics are almost needed for some of it |
| 03:21.21 | *** join/#brlcad kintel (~kintel@unaffiliated/kintel) |
| 03:23.11 | brlcad | hcurtis: several times now you have asked whether you should wait for me to finish .... |
| 03:23.31 | brlcad | I guess I didn't understand the implication, but the pattern is becoming more apparent |
| 03:23.41 | brlcad | NEVER WAIT FOR ME TO "FINISH" ;) |
| 03:24.23 | hcurtis | Ok. |
| 03:24.26 | brlcad | it's a conversation, I can read and type and maybe even be talking to four other people at the same time while compiling, reading the news, and updating a website :) |
| 03:25.06 | brlcad | if you can't, that's fine but don't let that stop you from talking, ever, if you have something to say/ask/share |
| 03:25.31 | brlcad | IRC doesn't work like everyone sitting around a meeting room table where only one person gets to talk |
| 03:26.28 | brlcad | and I'm not a professor up at a board expecting you to listen quietly and take notes ... I'll preface a conversation as such if it's really intended to be unidirectional or instructive |
| 03:26.46 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Krajkreddy * 7080 /wiki/User:Krajkreddy/GSOC14/summary: First Day Summary |
| 03:28.54 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 03:29.26 | brlcad | starseeker: maybe we need to revisit it all then because it just all feels wrong |
| 03:29.52 | hcurtis | First off, you thought I was dodging your question. I wasn't. I’m just not all that fast of a typist. However, now I realize that I should have just answered your question before trying to say anything else. |
| 03:30.57 | brlcad | starseeker: obviously shouldn't be rebuilding every time (i'm not yet seeing that behavior, but maybe need to reclean), but that could be the same problem with the files now getting generated after a timestamp, positioning in the CMakeLists.txt file and whatnot |
| 03:32.48 | brlcad | hcurtis: I believe I had to ask four times ... and be quite blunt about it |
| 03:33.26 | hcurtis | Second, I feel attacked. I want to do a good job (believe it or not), and I want to be respectful. I have made some choices that you don’t agree with, but that does NOT make it all right for you to talk down to me. You should at least let me explain what is going on with me and why I made the choices I did. |
| 03:34.59 | hcurtis | I am inexperienced, but I’m NOT a wimp, and I’m not a little kid. I am a grown man. We can have this conversation that we need to have, but going forward you need to treat me better than you just did. |
| 03:36.20 | brlcad | I can understand how you'd feel attacked, so how do you propose we could have avoided you feeling that way? |
| 03:37.05 | brlcad | I admit I was getting quite frustrated having to repeatedly ask what I saw as a simple unambiguous question and not have it get answered |
| 03:37.44 | brlcad | and you'll have to help me with what you're asserting that you've made choices I didn't agree with -- which exactly? |
| 03:40.10 | brlcad | I think that may be at the heart of this -- you perhaps feel guilty for the progress or perceived lack thereof? I not once called your activity into question -- I merely kept asking what the activity was (and didn't hear that getting answered)) |
| 03:40.40 | hcurtis | You seem to think I am afraid to be honest with you, but that is not the case. Also, you've made some assumptions about my reasons for doing things without even hearing the facts. Once I tell you more about what is going on, we can decide the best course of action for both of us. |
| 03:41.26 | brlcad | me asking you a question is not to put you on the defensive (ever), and there will be LOTS of questions, so we'll need to find a way to figure out how to deal with that |
| 03:41.56 | hcurtis | You act as though you didn't already know the answer to the question. |
| 03:42.08 | brlcad | BUT I DID NOT! |
| 03:42.10 | brlcad | :) |
| 03:42.13 | brlcad | seriously! |
| 03:42.19 | brlcad | that was the ENTIRETY of the question |
| 03:42.33 | hcurtis | But that's neither here nor there. Let's keep it moving. |
| 03:42.36 | brlcad | only you know what you did, what you've been doing |
| 03:44.10 | hcurtis | You're very smart, Sean, but you need to recognize that I'm not an idiot, either. Inexperience is not stupidity. |
| 03:44.17 | brlcad | if you're going to keep reading in between the lines, we are definitely going to have a problem because I have a rather intentional habit of saying EXACTLY and ONLY what I write, nothing else implied |
| 03:45.28 | hcurtis | Give me respect (even if you don't always understand my rationale), and I'll do the same for you. That's all I'm saying. |
| 03:45.30 | brlcad | hence my statement earlier even: there is no subtext |
| 03:45.49 | hcurtis | Let's move forward. |
| 03:47.36 | brlcad | Not one thing I asked or have said thus far has intended to be disrespectful in the least |
| 03:47.44 | brlcad | so if I've said something offensive: |
| 03:47.51 | brlcad | 1) I want to know exactly what it was |
| 03:48.05 | brlcad | 2) see #1 :) |
| 03:50.24 | hcurtis | [22:07] <brlcad> there's not a formula, this isn't choose your own adventure fill-in-the-blanks |
| 03:50.31 | hcurtis | WTF? |
| 03:51.41 | brlcad | that being in response to you asking me for an example "summary update" sentence |
| 03:51.49 | hcurtis | Since you wanted an example of your earlier sarcasm. |
| 03:52.58 | hcurtis | Asking for an example might seem ridiculous to you, but for me it is a valuable learning tool. |
| 03:53.00 | brlcad | okay, I can see how you may have seen that as sarcastic |
| 03:53.11 | brlcad | it was meant humorous, believe it or not |
| 03:53.25 | brlcad | playful even |
| 03:54.00 | brlcad | trying to lighten the tone, and apparently falling completely flat |
| 03:54.06 | hcurtis | And remember how you said the other day, when you give your updates, make them like a Twitter update? |
| 03:54.16 | brlcad | yes? |
| 03:55.11 | hcurtis | and you also said there's almost no way you can give us too much info in your update? |
| 03:55.39 | brlcad | wait, what's the story with twitter aspect or is that just context? |
| 03:55.55 | brlcad | was referencing twitter offensive? |
| 03:56.18 | hcurtis | Well, that's the reason behind the level of unnecessary detail with the coffee break and the annoying texts. |
| 03:57.21 | hcurtis | I don't even use Twitter, but I know that plenty of ppl use it for stupid sh*t like that. |
| 03:58.24 | brlcad | huh, interesting perspective (I don't know people that use it for things like that) |
| 03:58.50 | hcurtis | When I didn't make progress (well, what *I* thought was progress), I wanted you to understand why. |
| 03:59.11 | brlcad | so we're clear: I wasn't questioning a lack of progress |
| 03:59.21 | brlcad | whatsoever |
| 03:59.30 | hcurtis | Fine. Ok, let's talk about things that actually matter, |
| 04:00.04 | brlcad | if you have even the slightest feeling that I was, that honestly is your misunderstanding and reading into my question -- please reread our conversation from the beginning and you will perhaps see that with fresh perspective |
| 04:00.37 | brlcad | my question was and remains "what", not "why" |
| 04:00.51 | hcurtis | As I said earlier, yes, I'm behind. You're frustrated. I get that. |
| 04:01.05 | brlcad | i'm frustrated with this conversation, not your progress |
| 04:01.29 | brlcad | it's the first day of coding and you already feel behind? |
| 04:01.40 | brlcad | that's not cool |
| 04:01.50 | hcurtis | Well, this convo is just getting started, so should we continue it? |
| 04:02.07 | brlcad | if you like |
| 04:02.16 | brlcad | my question was answered :) |
| 04:03.05 | hcurtis | [22:05] <brlcad> hcurtis: for example, from your messages from the past four hours, all you did was read our HACKING file and have some coffee |
| 04:03.31 | hcurtis | "All I did" == Henry was wasting time |
| 04:03.32 | brlcad | remember, I had no idea what you actually did |
| 04:04.04 | brlcad | again, that's your interpretation |
| 04:04.10 | brlcad | and I assert a flawed one |
| 04:04.26 | hcurtis | Rereading the hacking file is important to me. If I don't refresh my memory about what I need to do, I can't do it. |
| 04:04.59 | brlcad | your response from what we've discussed was either "yes, that's all I did" or "no, I read hacking and followed up with these websites/topics/whatever" |
| 04:05.19 | brlcad | it's not a trick question |
| 04:05.51 | hcurtis | I never said it was. |
| 04:06.22 | hcurtis | that's your interpretation, and I assert a flawed one |
| 04:06.37 | brlcad | but you are claiming that saying yes/no to my characterization implies something good or bad |
| 04:07.05 | hcurtis | So let's get down to what can help us both. |
| 04:07.05 | brlcad | now whose being sarcastic :) |
| 04:07.15 | brlcad | who's |
| 04:07.34 | hcurtis | I am in over my head. I think that's obvious. |
| 04:07.51 | hcurtis | First, let me ask-- |
| 04:08.24 | hcurtis | did you read any of the past posts I left for you? |
| 04:08.38 | brlcad | I always read the backlog |
| 04:09.26 | brlcad | (so, yes, I saw numerous comments -- which you should be addressing to everyone, not just me, but beside the point) |
| 04:10.08 | hcurtis | So what about my idea about your showing me how to do one conversion format and I do the others on my own? |
| 04:10.27 | hcurtis | No go? |
| 04:10.42 | brlcad | there's a major start-up cost to doing the first one |
| 04:10.53 | hcurtis | Ok. |
| 04:10.56 | brlcad | that's arguably the bulk of the project |
| 04:10.58 | hcurtis | So that's out. |
| 04:11.39 | brlcad | moreovere, only a handful of the formats are similar to each other -- several are dramatically different |
| 04:11.50 | brlcad | s/moreovere/moreover/ |
| 04:13.08 | hcurtis | You've already said it, and you're probably right--there is no way I can deliver what's in my proposal. What do we do now. |
| 04:13.43 | brlcad | we start with something much smaller |
| 04:14.40 | brlcad | like converting a specific case of stack allocation into heap allocation |
| 04:15.14 | brlcad | assuming I can avoid putting you on the defensive with very direct questions :) |
| 04:15.58 | brlcad | I'll work on trying to smooth these discussions out, and I hope you'll do your best likewise to not read into anything |
| 04:16.19 | *** join/#brlcad Zhao_Anqing (~clouddrif@183.157.160.30) |
| 04:16.24 | hcurtis | * hcurtis nods as though he knows what the hell you're talking about (and yes, I read the malloc document, thank you) |
| 04:16.48 | brlcad | there is no emotion behind most things said on IRC, yet most newcomers conceptualize there being something when more often than not, it's simply not there |
| 04:17.11 | brlcad | heh, well that is a starting point |
| 04:17.45 | brlcad | so lets try an exercise in C to get through the concept, then see if you can apply it to the fast4-g case |
| 04:19.12 | hcurtis | [00:15] <brlcad> assuming I can avoid putting you on the defensive with very direct questions :) Give that sh*t a rest, Sean. Just understand that I'm a nice guy...until you talk down to me one too many times, then I WILL stand up for myself. You can call me hypersensitive all you want. I don't care. |
| 04:19.33 | hcurtis | Ok. An exercise in C sounds good. |
| 04:19.41 | brlcad | I'm not talking down to you |
| 04:19.46 | brlcad | never have, never intend to |
| 04:19.56 | hcurtis | Ok. An exercise in C sounds good. |
| 04:20.32 | brlcad | you have to admit that you're not used to talking on IRC, this has got to be new for you on many levels |
| 04:20.46 | hcurtis | Ok. An exercise in C sounds good. |
| 04:20.50 | hcurtis | lol |
| 04:20.52 | brlcad | and perhaps there are some preconceptions that do NOT apply |
| 04:21.09 | brlcad | that is not meant to be offensive in the least |
| 04:21.24 | hcurtis | Fine |
| 04:21.26 | brlcad | again, matter of fact -- if I'm wrong and you've been on IRC for a year, tell me I'm wrong |
| 04:22.14 | brlcad | I have some introductory irc materials for you to go over later, if I an find the references |
| 04:22.22 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 04:22.30 | brlcad | they talk specfically about several of the problems we've encountered tonight |
| 04:22.51 | hcurtis | which ones? ;) |
| 04:23.07 | brlcad | general misconceptions about tone, voice, intent, implication |
| 04:23.25 | hcurtis | Ok. An exercise in C sounds good. |
| 04:23.33 | hcurtis | ;) |
| 04:23.59 | brlcad | tomorrow, try writing two simple main programs in C. one creates an array of 10 integers on the stack, fills them with a number, prints the array of numbers. |
| 04:24.30 | brlcad | the second creates an array of N integers, fills in the array with a number, prints the array of numbers |
| 04:24.39 | brlcad | that's it |
| 04:24.46 | hcurtis | And the beautiful thing is that you FINALLY will get to see my code |
| 04:25.09 | hcurtis | Which was your big ? all along |
| 04:26.20 | brlcad | evaluation criteria in determining proposal suitability relies on ability to read/write code |
| 04:27.09 | brlcad | without demonstrating that ability, proposal suitability is at risk |
| 04:27.49 | hcurtis | Like fast4-g...Sean, I *studied* that thing, but it just had too many things I had never seen before. |
| 04:28.11 | brlcad | that means you should have had lots of questions |
| 04:28.37 | brlcad | s/had // |
| 04:29.13 | brlcad | by the way, that s/A/B/ nomenclature you're going to see more of |
| 04:29.23 | brlcad | it's a regular expression syntaxt that means replace A with B |
| 04:29.41 | brlcad | s/syntaxt/syntax/ |
| 04:31.31 | hcurtis | I feel pulled in at least 2 directions. You told me to answer my own questions. But then you tell me I am working too slowly. If I asked you or the others everything I have questions about, I'd never get anything else done. |
| 04:31.33 | brlcad | also, if you haven't noticed yet from the channel banner or discussions from the prior N weeks here, do understand that everything stated here in the channel publicly is logged and publicly available |
| 04:31.44 | brlcad | if you ever have a discussion that you'd rather not be public, we can discuss in private |
| 04:31.48 | hcurtis | Yes, it is. |
| 04:32.22 | brlcad | I did not tell you to anser your own questions (again, *precision*) |
| 04:32.33 | brlcad | if I'm not mistaken, I would have said try to answer your own questions |
| 04:33.47 | brlcad | asking a question that one can find with a 10-second internet search makes people unhappy, asking after doing at least some leg-work is just polite |
| 04:34.15 | hcurtis | I've asked you before about how I could share something with you in private, and you didn't answer. I figured that meant forget about it. |
| 04:35.20 | brlcad | again, reading into statements (here a non-statement!) |
| 04:35.24 | brlcad | :) |
| 04:35.30 | brlcad | if I read a question when the person asking the question is not in the channel, they don't get answered |
| 04:35.45 | brlcad | or I could have simply been in the middle of something |
| 04:37.03 | *** join/#brlcad kintel (~kintel@unaffiliated/kintel) |
| 04:37.51 | brlcad | if you don't get an answer after some reasonable time, please just ask again or ask someone else even |
| 04:38.25 | hcurtis | You call it reading in. I call it drawing a likely conclusion. Tomato, toe motto, let's call the whole thing off. |
| 04:38.35 | hcurtis | [22:32] <brlcad> every action you take, every bit of research should be directly attestable to that goal |
| 04:38.51 | hcurtis | Yeah, right. I wish that were possible. |
| 04:38.53 | brlcad | although, that's one where I'd be surprised if searching "how to send private message on IRC" wouldn't answer that particular question too |
| 04:39.25 | brlcad | hcurtis: honestly, if you keep doing that ... "drawing a likely conclusion" |
| 04:39.31 | brlcad | you're going to have a bad time |
| 04:39.35 | brlcad | I can't put it any more simply |
| 04:39.51 | hcurtis | Fine |
| 04:40.07 | brlcad | I don't want you to quit |
| 04:40.24 | hcurtis | No comment |
| 04:41.32 | hcurtis | I don't want to disappoint you any more, so I am very glad we are finally having this convo. |
| 04:42.28 | brlcad | i've not yet been disappointed by anything other than the misunderstandings you've expressed feeling |
| 04:42.40 | brlcad | which has absolutely nothing to do with your activity |
| 04:43.06 | brlcad | so in terms of GSoC, there's still plenty of room to grow and find productivity |
| 04:43.56 | *** join/#brlcad oana_ (~elf11@p5.eregie.pub.ro) |
| 04:45.20 | hcurtis | Another question: feedback on my patch |
| 04:45.46 | hcurtis | was it usable |
| 04:46.58 | brlcad | are you referring to the spelling fix patch? |
| 04:47.06 | hcurtis | yes |
| 04:47.38 | hcurtis | I went back and redid it on just one spelling error |
| 04:47.53 | hcurtis | to see if my technique was correct |
| 04:48.54 | brlcad | you can and should test that question yourself actually |
| 04:50.10 | hcurtis | Like I don't already have enough homework ;) |
| 04:50.48 | hcurtis | Did you read my explanation from yesterday of why I'm reading the documents? |
| 04:50.50 | brlcad | if you're not doing it, then you're asking me (or someone else) to do exactly that |
| 04:51.08 | hcurtis | hacking and such |
| 04:51.28 | brlcad | it should be something that takes you all of 10 seconds to try (and if it doesn't, then you should keep doing it until it is that familiar) |
| 04:51.35 | brlcad | it's akin to putting spaces between words |
| 04:51.47 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 04:53.07 | brlcad | yes I did read your explanation |
| 04:54.05 | hcurtis | That's another thing, Sean. You have this habit of talking about things I've never done before as though they should be super easy. You've been a programmer probably for decades, but I am just getting started. Understand that. |
| 04:55.27 | brlcad | I do understand that, and I commented early on that it will be a lot of hard work for you too because of that |
| 04:56.00 | brlcad | the bar will always be set at or above your ability level |
| 04:56.06 | brlcad | that goes the same for everyone |
| 04:56.07 | *** join/#brlcad Zhao_Anqing (~clouddrif@183.157.160.8) |
| 04:57.01 | brlcad | everyone is judged on their effort and distance, not on location at the beginning or end |
| 04:57.17 | hcurtis | And that's fine. I'm a hard worker, but all the hard work in the world isn't going to help me (or you) if I don't know what's going on...which is a lot of the time I admit. |
| 04:57.47 | hcurtis | Until GSoC, I had never heard of a struct. |
| 04:57.54 | hcurtis | For example |
| 04:58.13 | hcurtis | You can laugh, it's ok |
| 05:00.16 | brlcad | if I seem to insinuate that something is super easy, perhaps it's because it is a relatively simple concept that I am confident you can pick up quickly |
| 05:00.23 | hcurtis | So about the explanation I wrote. Do you have any questions? Do you agree? Disagree? Did it even make sense? |
| 05:00.41 | hcurtis | Too late for a save, Sean ;) |
| 05:01.02 | brlcad | it's never too late, the discussion and coding never ends |
| 05:01.21 | hcurtis | I wonder what your IQ is. What is the max? |
| 05:01.29 | hcurtis | 200? |
| 05:01.57 | brlcad | I did not have any questions on your explanation, I understood why you were doing that and why it made sense to you |
| 05:03.03 | hcurtis | brb |
| 05:03.04 | brlcad | It was one of the background materials identified, arguably one of the most important, to get to know well in advance of the coding window, so if you needed to consult it, you certainly should |
| 05:04.34 | brlcad | reading it from start to finish multiple times seems unnecessary as there are some sections that do not imminently pertain to GSoC students |
| 05:08.23 | brlcad | it is unusual to spend hours, much less an entire day reading it, as it takes all of 15 minutes to read word-for-word even at a methodically slow 100wpm rate |
| 05:08.33 | hcurtis | You talk as if I had time to get to know ANYTHING in depth before now...between the million things I was juggling. But that's not your problem. |
| 05:09.31 | brlcad | but then your experience level is unusual, too, and strictly speaking I'd bet you actually didn't "just" read HACKING, but you searched the web to better understand things you encountered in the document |
| 05:11.16 | brlcad | I talk as if there are participation expectations during the bonding period are set for everyone in GSoC, not whether you personally have time or dedicated time -- that indeed is your problem entirely |
| 05:12.06 | brlcad | I merely reinforced those expectations in numerous e-mails and IRC discussions, so they are indeed my expectations as well |
| 05:13.43 | brlcad | hcurtis: have you read http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html ? |
| 05:14.13 | hcurtis | That is correct. I did look up a lot of things. |
| 05:14.54 | hcurtis | I skimmed http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. |
| 05:17.56 | brlcad | that's actually a good document to read in detail |
| 05:18.19 | brlcad | I don't agree with everything in there, but MUCH of it is 100% accurate |
| 05:18.41 | brlcad | particularly with regard to cultural norm deviations |
| 05:19.21 | hcurtis | And *precision*, Sean--I didn't spend an entire day on Hacking. I didn't start until the afternoon. I read for around 4 hours, and some of that was filled with distractions from others. |
| 05:20.20 | brlcad | precision appreciated |
| 05:20.49 | hcurtis | Another problem we need to talk about is my build environment. |
| 05:21.28 | hcurtis | You saw how I went on a wild goose chase to get a Linux computer. Rookie mistake, I know. |
| 05:22.14 | hcurtis | You said ditch the VM, and I agree. |
| 05:23.00 | hcurtis | But I know that if I stick with MSVC but have probs, you guys will be like, good luck with that. |
| 05:23.37 | hcurtis | So I'm going to get a Ubuntu laptop online. |
| 05:24.52 | brlcad | so what's to talk about then? |
| 05:24.59 | hcurtis | Comments? |
| 05:25.14 | hcurtis | Or not. |
| 05:25.20 | hcurtis | which is fine |
| 05:25.51 | mihaineacsu | most computer would do just fine, if not all...even your current machine, there's no need to buy a different computer for that. |
| 05:26.32 | hcurtis | Hi, mihaineacsu. |
| 05:26.55 | brlcad | yeah, I don't think it really matters at this point what you use, so long as you stick to something and invest in learning that environment |
| 05:27.21 | brlcad | normally the standard answer is to work with your native platform that is most familiar to you for development |
| 05:27.26 | brlcad | but none of them are for you, basically |
| 05:27.40 | brlcad | so invest in one and run with it |
| 05:28.11 | brlcad | whether msvc or linux or even the VM |
| 05:29.19 | hcurtis | mihaineacsu: I definitely appreciate your advice from yesterday about installing Ubuntu, but the idea of putting it on this old Windows 7 laptop turns me off. I'd rather just get a dedicated Linux setup. |
| 05:30.51 | hcurtis | brlcad: http://opensource.com/education/14/4/windows-to-linux-system-administration |
| 05:31.02 | hcurtis | remember giving me that? |
| 05:31.26 | brlcad | you will need to be thinking about how we can modify your proposal into something that is achievable and will be useful if those two test programs take you more than a day to figure out, since that'll invariably mean an adjustment is requisite |
| 05:31.52 | hcurtis | ok |
| 05:32.02 | brlcad | hcurtis: yes |
| 05:32.17 | hcurtis | that is another thing I wanted to get your input on |
| 05:32.58 | hcurtis | scaling back my proposal, that is |
| 05:35.26 | brlcad | you should take a stab at it after trying the exercise |
| 05:36.50 | hcurtis | Let me tell you about another problem. I am pretty sure you will be irritated, but I can't afford to waste any more time trying to figure it out by myself. |
| 05:40.06 | hcurtis | In the VM I used a svn command (I think) to check out the source code. However, I don't understand how to do it from Windows. I logged in to Sourceforge, but I couldn't figure out how to check out code there. Can you walk me through it? |
| 05:43.37 | oana_ | On windows why don't you try to use a GUI client for svn, like tortoise svn. |
| 05:44.29 | oana_ | It's pretty well documented, or maybe brlcad has another idea. It's just a suggestion. |
| 05:45.07 | hcurtis | oana_: Thank you. |
| 05:45.11 | mihaineacsu | you check this out http://www.institute.loni.org/lasigma/document_files/SVN_tutorial_Windows.pdf |
| 05:45.14 | brlcad | that would be my suggestion as well, there are any number of tutorials on the web on how to "checkout code from a subversion repository on Windows" |
| 05:45.17 | brlcad | like that one ;) |
| 05:45.28 | brlcad | literally hundreds |
| 05:45.42 | mihaineacsu | yeah |
| 05:45.45 | brlcad | so lots of examples with varying amounts of additional detail |
| 05:45.54 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 05:46.15 | hcurtis | I thank all of you |
| 05:46.17 | brlcad | you'll also very often find most dev questions like that answered on a site called stackoverflow.com |
| 05:46.39 | hcurtis | except maybe Sean because he hates that ;) |
| 05:46.42 | brlcad | you can even post questions there if they go unanswered |
| 05:47.05 | brlcad | he does? |
| 05:47.27 | hcurtis | brlcad: You said I needed "to chill" |
| 05:47.30 | hcurtis | lol |
| 05:47.42 | hcurtis | I guess you don't recall |
| 05:48.38 | hcurtis | So your IQ is only 190 and not 200. Oh, well. Nobody's perfect. ;) |
| 05:48.51 | brlcad | well you're paraphrasing, but I am not seeing how that follows |
| 05:49.53 | hcurtis | Never mind. It was a joke (although I can dig up what you wrote from the log if you want). |
| 05:50.22 | brlcad | i.e., i'm not sure how chilling pertains to hating thanks :) |
| 05:51.04 | hcurtis | I was too "continually thankful," and you said I needed to stop |
| 05:51.10 | brlcad | I don't hate thanks (nor need it, but sometimes appreciate it) ;) |
| 05:51.56 | brlcad | "sometimes" being a stretch, I prefer good deeds to good words |
| 05:53.56 | hcurtis | [22:32] <brlcad> 2) I get a sense that you need a short-term objective -- something that will take you less than three days |
| 05:54.08 | hcurtis | Please elaborate. |
| 05:54.23 | brlcad | I thought we already did |
| 05:54.33 | brlcad | that exercise is a short-term objective, no? |
| 05:54.54 | hcurtis | You gave me the short-term proj, but why did you say that |
| 05:55.19 | hcurtis | what gave you that sense you referred to |
| 05:55.30 | brlcad | your updates from the three days prior |
| 05:55.44 | hcurtis | I don't follow |
| 05:55.57 | brlcad | I could be mistaken, but they gave a picture of a lot of exploration and setup, but without purpose |
| 05:56.03 | brlcad | hence why I said it's a sense |
| 05:56.13 | brlcad | i.e., where to get started |
| 05:56.26 | brlcad | a valid question, and can be tough to get started |
| 05:56.54 | hcurtis | Relax, I'm not offended. I just want to understand your perspective. |
| 05:56.57 | brlcad | so my comment was noting that I think you need a specific short-term goal that clearly moves you forward |
| 05:57.04 | brlcad | I'm quite relaxed |
| 05:57.11 | brlcad | in fact, I just farted |
| 05:57.18 | hcurtis | tmi! |
| 05:57.20 | hcurtis | lol |
| 05:58.11 | mihaineacsu | lights a match |
| 05:58.13 | brlcad | again reading in, again incorrect ... I just might have to make a habit of pointing these out so you realize how frequent they occur :) |
| 05:58.23 | hcurtis | I didn't see that coming AT ALL |
| 05:58.33 | hcurtis | I really did LOL |
| 05:58.36 | brlcad | not intended to offend, just enlighten (a match perse) |
| 05:58.58 | brlcad | s/perse/per se/ |
| 06:00.49 | brlcad | it might help to conceptualize that you're talking with a chatbot or a robot .. everything is literal unless it's virtual ;) |
| 06:01.24 | brlcad | does a backflip |
| 06:01.27 | brlcad | (virtually) |
| 06:01.42 | brlcad | is on his back |
| 06:01.44 | brlcad | (literally) |
| 06:02.29 | brlcad | and with that, I must literally and virtually enwander a bit |
| 06:05.23 | hcurtis | I wasn't "reading in." If you want to get all analytical, Sean, I said what I said because your offering a multiple-line explanation of what you wrote (without my asking for it) looked like backpedaling. As in "don't be offended, I *only* meant..." |
| 06:05.39 | hcurtis | But you're gone anyway |
| 06:06.11 | hcurtis | This has been a strange, strange night |
| 06:07.40 | mihaineacsu | hcurtis: just an advice (friendly or not, however it may seem), this is a great opportunity to contribute to something cool, to learn and grow from it and actually be paid for it. |
| 06:08.23 | mihaineacsu | hcurtis: try to embrace brlcad's advices, however they may seem to you right now. |
| 06:09.03 | hcurtis | mihaineacsu: Oh, I do. And I agree with you. |
| 06:12.02 | hcurtis | mihaineacsu_bbl: We had a tense moment a while ago, but that's over now. I simply had to let him know that he needs to talk (type?) to me as respectfully as I do to him. |
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| 06:25.24 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Popescu.andrei1991 * 7081 /wiki/User:Popescu.andrei1991/devlogs: minor devlog update |
| 06:25.42 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Popescu.andrei1991 * 7082 /wiki/User:Popescu.andrei1991/devlogs: |
| 06:26.09 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Popescu.andrei1991 * 7083 /wiki/User:Popescu.andrei1991/devlogs: |
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| 06:39.07 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Inderpreet * 7084 /wiki/User:Inderpreet/GSoC14/logs: /* Development Logs */ |
| 06:39.24 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Inderpreet * 7085 /wiki/User:Inderpreet/GSoC14/logs: /* Week 1 = */ |
| 06:41.12 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Inderpreet * 7086 /wiki/User:Inderpreet/GSoC14/logs: /* 19th May */ |
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| 07:08.08 | *** join/#brlcad raj12lnm (31cd6b50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.49.205.107.80) |
| 07:08.14 | raj12lnm | hi.. |
| 07:08.23 | raj12lnm | does any one have a background with mged. |
| 07:08.47 | raj12lnm | I am have a brl-cad installed, but unable to run mged |
| 07:08.53 | raj12lnm | can any one help me regarding this ? |
| 07:09.55 | mihaineacsu_bbl | can you give us more details? how did you install it, what OS are you running, how did you try and run mged? |
| 07:26.52 | raj12lnm | mihaineacsu_bbl : I am using ubuntu |
| 07:26.58 | raj12lnm | i installed it using the source |
| 07:27.06 | raj12lnm | i have used mged earlier |
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| 10:44.26 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD || http://brlcad.org || logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/ || GCI winners: Jacob Burroughs and Peter Amidon! || GSoC 2014 selections are announced! Thank you to all we got to work with. Remember that SOCIS is coming up right around the corner and you don't need a summer of code to get involved with open source. |
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| 10:52.07 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60749 (brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/TODO =================================================================== and 60 others): track needed work |
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| 12:11.32 | ``Erik | wow. what a buffer to wake up to. |
| 12:25.11 | brlcad | tldr; I'm new to IRC |
| 12:28.11 | *** join/#brlcad mihaineacsu (~mihaineac@92.81.157.81) |
| 12:29.11 | brlcad | mihaineacsu: thanks for helping others |
| 12:29.26 | mihaineacsu | :) |
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| 12:57.21 | *** join/#brlcad luca79 (~luca@net-188-216-238-3.cust.vodafonedsl.it) |
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| 13:09.22 | ``Erik | brlcad: new to written communication, it'd seem :D *ponder* sf compile farm requires commit access, is gcc compile farm workable for those who need the equipment? O.o |
| 13:11.16 | ``Erik | as slow as the vm approach is, it works and removes a variable |
| 13:19.50 | n_reed | brlcad, ``Erik: thanks for the summary; it was too long, and I didn't read it :) |
| 13:22.11 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60750 (brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/CMakeLists.txt brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/diff_callbacks.c brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/gdiff2.h): Break the attr object comparison bit out into its own function - will probably need it again. |
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| 13:55.21 | brlcad | ``Erik: I'd not be inlined to suggest that usage of the gcc compile farm, particularly for gsoc participants |
| 13:57.13 | brlcad | they've not demonstrated long-term longevity and their actions could reflect on our reputation if they screw something up (even if completely unintentional) |
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| 13:58.02 | starseeker | ok, the 'rebuild-everything' problem is elsewhere - seems to be coming out of the build flag management somehow |
| 13:58.05 | starseeker | phew |
| 13:58.23 | starseeker | (grr) |
| 14:04.41 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:tbrowder2 * 60751 (brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/BP.pm brlcad/branches/d-binding/misc/d-bindings/CParse.pm and 5 others): collect unknown keys2 and insert into CParse.pm; update new module references |
| 14:10.26 | *** join/#brlcad teepee- (bc5c2133@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.92.33.51) |
| 14:16.42 | brlcad | starseeker: I think I just figured out how, don't know why I didn't think of it before |
| 14:18.55 | brlcad | so it doesn't know when cmake is run, |
| 14:19.07 | brlcad | and it knows the path (and other settings) when make et al are run |
| 14:20.02 | brlcad | so just instead of spitting it out to a file, we can just put it in the build command itself |
| 14:21.46 | brlcad | in fact, that'll also reduce the complexity / inconsistency we already have of mixing files coming from the repo (basically read-only), and files from the build (write+read) |
| 14:22.59 | brlcad | should mean we can eliminate all of the build files (DATE, HOST, PATH, USER, COUNT) |
| 14:25.43 | brlcad | opens the door for fixing a few other things too like detecting whether it's an optimized build too (benchmark really needs to know all the compilation settings) |
| 14:29.50 | brlcad | starseeker: and if my suggestion wasn't clear, basically passing -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="/usr/rel-whatever" -DBRLCAD_COPILE_USER="sean" and friends as cppflags for the requested configuration type |
| 14:32.06 | brlcad | DATE is obviously a problem, but I think we should just run with it and see if it's as undesirable as it was characterized a few years ago |
| 14:35.08 | starseeker | brlcad: so rather than putting those in files at all, we'll go the tcl route and add them to the build flags? |
| 14:35.23 | starseeker | erm... that makes for some verbose compilation lines. |
| 14:35.48 | starseeker | 'course, these days our includes do that all by themselves, not to mention our compiler flags, so maybe it doesn't matter much |
| 14:36.25 | starseeker | worries a little about getting too fancy with MSVC's -D equalivent - it doesn't have too much tolerance for fancy quoting, in my experience |
| 14:45.40 | kanzure | i have been poking around in opencascade, here are my notes: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade |
| 14:53.48 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 60752 (brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc/Dll/BrlcadCore.def brlcad/trunk/misc/win32-msvc/Dll/brlcad.def): add three db5 attribute handling symbols from Daniel Hyams mailing list message. sync lib symbols with those in core interface (desirable? or keep it the set actually used?). |
| 14:55.16 | brlcad | starseeker: yes, but just for the write+read files we were using |
| 14:55.25 | brlcad | the version files stay as they are |
| 14:56.11 | brlcad | and ideally we should be able to put all of these flags together, so we don't end up propagating them from all parts of the build? |
| 14:56.22 | starseeker | sure |
| 14:56.49 | starseeker | the reason for them being where they are now is primarily the build-target magic necessary for file-based PATH handling |
| 14:57.19 | starseeker | if we're OK with ditching the include/conf/* files, that totally transforms the problem |
| 14:57.33 | brlcad | nods |
| 14:57.45 | brlcad | well, the non-version conf files right? |
| 14:57.50 | starseeker | making include/conf/PATH be the right thing at the right time was the hard part |
| 14:57.54 | starseeker | sure |
| 14:58.36 | starseeker | there is one problem that will still require complex handling - setting the install directories correctly at build time |
| 14:58.52 | brlcad | yeah, I get that .. you done good getting that in there, I'm just concerned about the complexity it required |
| 14:58.56 | brlcad | you know, is it worth it long-run |
| 14:59.01 | starseeker | nods |
| 14:59.20 | starseeker | I'd say no, personally |
| 14:59.31 | brlcad | the only problem with turning everything into -D flags is if we need to pass something more complicated |
| 14:59.36 | starseeker | now that we don't need to keep that mechanism for the autotools build, we're good to rework |
| 15:00.13 | brlcad | like it would be really cool if we could actually record the build flags into the lib ... but that's a cyclejerking that would suck as a -D flag |
| 15:00.50 | brlcad | specifically thinking towards the benchmark where this is a real concern |
| 15:01.00 | brlcad | how was librt actually built, for example |
| 15:01.26 | brlcad | not just "optimized" or not, but what were the actual flags, was this an architecture-specific compile? was it a multi-pass optimization build? |
| 15:01.26 | starseeker | I have a weird idea... |
| 15:02.46 | starseeker | if we want to encode the build flags into the libraries, what about making a "string" passed in as a -D that is encoded using hexdump to avoid all the quoting weirdness? |
| 15:03.05 | starseeker | I used it in tinyscheme to embed an init file: https://github.com/starseeker/tinyscheme-cmake/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt |
| 15:03.09 | brlcad | haha |
| 15:03.15 | brlcad | I dunno, that really sounds just evil |
| 15:03.40 | starseeker | if we have CMake do the same thing to prepare the -D options for the library definitions, it should (in principle) be fully robust |
| 15:04.10 | brlcad | robust perhaps but unobvious as all fruck |
| 15:04.26 | starseeker | would bet money that it would be easier and more maintainable than trying to figure out quoting rules for CMake + multiple build tools |
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| 15:05.36 | brlcad | let's consider a specific example |
| 15:05.52 | brlcad | (just thinking it through to see what it'd look like) |
| 15:06.06 | brlcad | say we have install path is /github.com/starseeker/tinyscheme-cmake/blob/master/ |
| 15:06.22 | brlcad | so instead of -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="/github.com/starseeker/tinyscheme-cmake/blob/master/" we'd end up with what? |
| 15:06.56 | starseeker | -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="<hexcode stuff>" |
| 15:07.27 | starseeker | I'd have to build hexdump if you want the actual string, but the point I think you're making is that it would be totally non-obvious what's in the string on the compile line |
| 15:07.34 | starseeker | quite true |
| 15:08.41 | brlcad | I think it's be: -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="2f6769746875622e636f6d2f737461727365656b65722f74696e79736368656d652d636d616b652f626c6f622f6d61737465722f" |
| 15:08.59 | starseeker | OK. |
| 15:09.18 | brlcad | at least, that was a quick poor-mans conversion |
| 15:09.48 | brlcad | hmm |
| 15:10.17 | starseeker | shouldn't upset any build tool, and once we get it defined and built in C we can print it out again |
| 15:10.47 | brlcad | url-encoding would be something like -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="%2Fgithub.com%2Fstarseeker%2Ftinyscheme-cmake%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2F%0A" |
| 15:11.15 | starseeker | main problem is whether you want to see it intuitively in the build environment, and in that environment you have all the path and build info already |
| 15:12.06 | brlcad | base-64 -DBRLCAD_COMPILE_PATH="L2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vc3RhcnNlZWtlci90aW55c2NoZW1lLWNtYWtlL2Jsb2IvbWFzdGVyLw==" |
| 15:12.20 | starseeker | would be nervous about % and period, personally... |
| 15:12.35 | starseeker | base64 looks ok |
| 15:13.16 | starseeker | likes the hexdump approach because you stick that straight into a C file, no decoding step, and it's just there |
| 15:13.31 | brlcad | in all practicality, the only issue is FAT-32 filesystems, in which case % and . wouldn't be an issue |
| 15:14.21 | brlcad | the downside of hexdump is it's completely opaque and 2x verbose |
| 15:14.40 | brlcad | non a show stopper, but certainly downsides |
| 15:15.03 | starseeker | nods - my thinking is that the command line verbosity is already so great at this point we're not losing much in that regard |
| 15:15.40 | starseeker | yeah, thought so: https://github.com/starseeker/tinyscheme-cmake/blob/master/scheme.c#L111 |
| 15:16.07 | starseeker | just including the generated file. Something similar should be doable for the -D approach, and then we don't have to fool with any decoding at all |
| 15:16.48 | brlcad | i've never been a fan of snowball justification, rather accept/reject based on all the other factors just recognizing that as one of the downsides |
| 15:17.15 | starseeker | fair enough |
| 15:17.21 | brlcad | I'm not as concerned about the length either as real paths are going to be shorter |
| 15:17.24 | starseeker | I did say it was a weird idea ;-) |
| 15:17.24 | brlcad | probably |
| 15:17.49 | brlcad | more concerning from a usability perspective that it's completely opaque |
| 15:18.59 | starseeker | that's only an issue when we need to interact with it in the compile-line level... how often does that happen (serious question - I don't interact with the Make level myself except on very rare occasions, but that may not be universally true.) |
| 15:19.58 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:carlmoore * 60753 (brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/containers.c brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/gdiff2.h and 2 others): remove trailing blanks/tabs; noticed that 2 files did not end with newlines; fix spelling after I found 'successed' |
| 15:23.25 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60754 (brlcad/trunk/CMakeLists.txt brlcad/trunk/misc/CMake/CompilerFlags.cmake brlcad/trunk/src/other/CMakeLists.txt): Rework the build flag managment so we don't end up with the Cache and the working environment always out of sync (the condition which increments our COUNT variable and triggers a wide-scale rebuild.) |
| 15:51.01 | *** join/#brlcad kintel (~kintel@unaffiliated/kintel) |
| 16:15.05 | *** join/#brlcad ishwerdas (~ishwerdas@59.91.237.167) |
| 16:30.12 | ankesh11 | brlcad: " Those of you working on web projects doing your own private hosting are going to need to stop playing in a sandbox." I don't know what to make of it. Where should we host our projects? I already have a Git repository so the project is certainly not in a sandbox. |
| 16:34.12 | ankesh11 | Also, Can you send the archived benchmark logs you mentioned about? The logs from my system generate similar results on multiple runs, so I can't get a wider perspective. It would also help in testing if the database if well populated. |
| 16:46.13 | ishwerdas | brlcad: same question as of ankesh11 about sandbox environment. |
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| 17:21.54 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Vladbogolin * 7090 /wiki/User:Vladbogolin/GSoC2014/Logs: /* Logs */ |
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| 18:19.15 | ishwerdas | ankesh11: ping |
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| 18:28.31 | ankesh11 | ishwerdas: Hi |
| 18:34.06 | ishwerdas | Hi ankesh11, does your project involve cutsome javascript ? |
| 18:34.51 | ankesh11 | Ya, it does. |
| 18:36.47 | ankesh11 | I am not sure what you mean by custom JS? JS code other than external scripts, then yes. |
| 18:38.01 | ishwerdas | What coding standards are you following there? like I am a bit confused with callback functions |
| 18:38.20 | ishwerdas | and HACKING file does not seem to help |
| 18:40.39 | ankesh11 | Crockford's generally |
| 18:41.37 | ankesh11 | But there is not much JS I have to use. |
| 18:42.53 | ishwerdas | hmm, need to confirm about this with a mentor. |
| 18:43.07 | ishwerdas | anyways, thanks :) |
| 18:43.17 | ankesh11 | Yes, that would be wise. |
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| 18:53.07 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60755 brlcad/trunk/src/gtools/gdiff2/summary.c: changed, not removed. |
| 19:01.56 | ``Erik | um, I'd think you get to choose your style... as long as it's consistent and readable |
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| 20:09.31 | *** join/#brlcad hcurtis (b82d18c2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.45.24.194) |
| 20:11.36 | hcurtis | brlcad: Please let me know when you come back. |
| 20:23.03 | brlcad | ankesh11: you don't have to worry about other developers at all at the moment -- that is where the sandbox comment comes from |
| 20:24.20 | brlcad | it'd be good to get you and your code set up at https://github.com/BRL-CAD and an installation up on our production server too |
| 20:24.35 | brlcad | ankesh11: remind me about the logs later :) |
| 20:27.13 | hcurtis | Did I do my dev log correctly? http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Hcurtis0010/GSoC2014/logs |
| 20:27.15 | brlcad | ishwerdas: HACKING is certainly C-centric, so it'll mostly just speak to code structure and formatting expectations (e.g., whitespace around operators, file headers/footers, indentation, etc) |
| 20:28.09 | brlcad | hcurtis: that dev log looks almost perfect |
| 20:28.45 | brlcad | certainly good enough |
| 20:28.49 | hcurtis | Thank you. |
| 20:29.57 | ankesh11 | brlcad: I need to be a member of the org to fork the repo there. I assume you will put up instructions for server installation on the mailing list? |
| 20:29.59 | brlcad | when you have non-technical/non-coding activity, it's usually good to get specific and "other topics" is vague, so that'd be the only suggestion |
| 20:30.20 | brlcad | otherwise it's a great level of detail and specificity |
| 20:30.59 | ankesh11 | No problem, the logs can wait for the time being. |
| 20:31.36 | brlcad | ankesh11: just e-mail me the request with your username, I'll add you or maths22 can add you |
| 20:40.10 | hcurtis | brlcad: I’d like to show you something: |
| 20:40.48 | hcurtis | brlcad: [22:05] <hcurtis> When you say the progress I make, can you be more specific? Please give me a sample sentence. [22:07] <brlcad> there's not a formula, this isn't choose your own adventure fill-in-the-blanks … [22:25] <brlcad> e.g., "all I got to today was reading (re-reading?) through the hacking file, and reading up on X Y Z as a result" |
| 20:42.24 | hcurtis | brlcad: I was able to get the dev log entry right because you gave me an example of what you were looking for. I realize this way of doing things doesn't make a lot of sense to you (see your comment at 22:07), but it is one of the ways I learn best. If you can keep giving me examples when I ask for them, I’ll be much better able to give you what you want, which is what I aim to do in the first place. I imagine then we’ll both be |
| 20:48.06 | hcurtis | brlcad: I need to make sure I understand what you want me to do for the exercises. In the first program I am writing, I create an array, fill it with ten integers, and display those array contents on the screen, right? |
| 20:51.39 | ``Erik | I think that's what he said, with the memory of the array being on the stack (do you know the difference between stack and heap?) |
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| 20:54.04 | hcurtis | ``Erik: Hi, Erik. Please refresh my memory about the difference. |
| 20:56.30 | ``Erik | um, stack allocations are block scoped, thread and probably mostly what you've been doing... heap allocations are explicitely allocated (malloc, calloc, new in c++) and must be manually freed, but can stick around after you leave scope |
| 20:57.41 | hcurtis | Yes. Sean did have me read some great information that alluded to that concept. |
| 21:00.20 | hcurtis | ``Erik: Thank you. |
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| 21:00.39 | ``Erik | np, good luck with your programs |
| 21:01.23 | hcurtis | ``Erik: I appreciate your encouragement. |
| 21:03.02 | brlcad | hcurtis: you're really just not going to let a horse be dead are you |
| 21:05.11 | hcurtis | brlcad: You can say whatever you like. I simply stated what I ask for in order to do a good job for you. |
| 21:05.13 | brlcad | I said there wasn't a formula to "getting it right" .. there's quite a number of ways to convey your daily activity in a useful manner |
| 21:05.29 | brlcad | you're not doing a job for me |
| 21:05.31 | *** join/#brlcad ankesh11 (sid8015@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osqeyjxstnjlphoz) |
| 21:05.49 | hcurtis | You know what I mean. |
| 21:05.58 | brlcad | it's your project, your work -- you're asked to share your progress and engage the community, become part of that community |
| 21:06.14 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:06.40 | hcurtis | But does any of what I'm saying make sense? |
| 21:07.00 | brlcad | sure, it makes sense |
| 21:07.16 | brlcad | why wouldn't examples be helpful for you to replicate their semblance? |
| 21:08.23 | hcurtis | I'm not trying to be a pain, Sean. You yourself said that open source is about honesty and communication, and I'm just trying to give you those. |
| 21:10.32 | hcurtis | Anyway, your instructions for the second program are less clear to me. I create an array of N integers. Do I ask the user to input N or do I get N somewhere else? |
| 21:10.36 | brlcad | I hear you, but productivity is also a major concern |
| 21:11.01 | brlcad | not just your productivity, everyone's |
| 21:12.08 | hcurtis | Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I want to be highly productive...starting with the programs you've asked me to do. |
| 21:13.18 | brlcad | but you must recognize that your productivity cannot come at an expense of other people's time, at least it cannot be reliant upon you asking for something from others |
| 21:13.38 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:13.48 | brlcad | its mentor's responsibility to judge whether helping you with some aspect will be beneficial, not you |
| 21:14.02 | brlcad | just because you want an example does not mean you are entitled to one |
| 21:14.29 | brlcad | I certainly recognize they can be useful, but they also come at a cost and that is yours to bear ultimately |
| 21:14.55 | brlcad | if a mentor (myself or others) choose to help you, that is in their hands and the nature of all open source communities |
| 21:15.41 | brlcad | you undoubtedly read about meritocracy briefly in hacking .. your value in open source is your productivity |
| 21:16.16 | brlcad | so yes, please do point out where an example might help you, but also recognize that it might not always be possible |
| 21:16.59 | brlcad | yesterdays discussion was a good example about converting one type basically being the bulk of your proposed task, so that example is not realistic, but there are far more subtle cases |
| 21:17.28 | hcurtis | I never said I was entitled to anything...but I will ALWAYS ask if I think it could help me do good work. If you say no, then you say no. I don't think I'm entitled to ANYTHING. |
| 21:17.53 | brlcad | moreover there are costs with examples themselves as they can be a great learning tool but they can also be a great crutch |
| 21:20.16 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:20.19 | brlcad | I know you didn't say it -- just want to make sure you're clear on that since you said you were able to get the dev log entry right because I gave you an example |
| 21:20.32 | brlcad | if I had not given you an example, you still should and could have easily "gotten it right" too :) |
| 21:20.49 | hcurtis | Maybe |
| 21:21.11 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Ankeshanand * 7091 /wiki/User:Ankeshanand/GSoC14/logs: /* Update the logs with today's summary */ |
| 21:21.38 | brlcad | if there's a problem with status updates, or a question, the mentors follow-up |
| 21:22.18 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:22.19 | brlcad | it's a detail that should not take more than two minutes of a day to summarize the day usefully to an unknown audience (not just your mentor) |
| 21:22.37 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:22.54 | brlcad | on a related note -- especially when it comes to code, just know that examples can be exceptionally dangerous |
| 21:22.56 | ishwerdas | brlcad: How would I be able to get access to https://github.com/BRL-CAD ? I have submitted few patches to the previous OGV and also have done some work on BRL-CAD's new website. |
| 21:23.08 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Ankeshanand * 7092 /wiki/User:Ankeshanand/GSoC14/logs: /* Fix typo */ |
| 21:23.25 | brlcad | there's an entire phenomenon around it, see the wikipedia page on "Cargo cult programming" |
| 21:24.35 | hcurtis | Kind of like script kiddies |
| 21:24.36 | brlcad | ishwerdas: same as I told ankesh11 -- just send me and maths22 an e-mail with your username requesting access |
| 21:25.34 | ishwerdas | Ok, thanks :) |
| 21:26.52 | brlcad | hcurtis: sort of, but more often algorithms and snippets of code that get reused in appropriate and code that seems to "magically work" .. or "it worked fine on my system, I don't know why it's crashing everywhere else" |
| 21:27.18 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:27.20 | brlcad | quite common with C in particular, as there are a lot of rules and behaviors that are not obvious or easy to learn quickly |
| 21:27.27 | brlcad | C++ even worse |
| 21:28.40 | brlcad | and to answer your comment earlier, C++ vs C for the exercise doesn't matter because we're literally talking about very few lines of code |
| 21:28.57 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:29.33 | hcurtis | For the second program, I create an array of N integers. Do I ask the user to input N or do I get N somewhere else? |
| 21:29.53 | brlcad | whatever, either |
| 21:30.15 | brlcad | the point is that it's a dynamic value |
| 21:30.30 | hcurtis | Yes |
| 21:30.51 | hcurtis | And do I just make them .txt files? |
| 21:30.59 | brlcad | nope |
| 21:31.05 | brlcad | you make them proper source files |
| 21:31.12 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:31.30 | hcurtis | How do I get them to you |
| 21:31.57 | brlcad | if you do it in C++, then your next step will be to get it working in C, then to get it working using our libbu API |
| 21:32.05 | brlcad | ~pastebin |
| 21:32.05 | infobot | A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few: http://www.pastebin.com, http://pastebin.ca, http://channels.debian.net/paste, http://paste.lisp.org, http://bin.cakephp.org/; or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude. |
| 21:32.36 | brlcad | these are snippits of code, any public pasting service will do just fine (except pastebin.com, don't use that one) |
| 21:32.44 | brlcad | it should compile cleanly |
| 21:33.24 | hcurtis | libbu == the utility library [See, I *do* know something! ;) ] |
| 21:33.54 | brlcad | if you're in the VM, something like this to compile: gcc -W -Wall -Werror -o test1 yourfile.c |
| 21:34.09 | brlcad | that'll compile yourfile.c and you can then run ./test1 to run your program |
| 21:34.11 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:35.34 | hcurtis | This is great information. |
| 21:35.38 | brlcad | you don't need to wait for me to give you feedback -- pretty much anyone here can review your code and point out any issues |
| 21:35.47 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:36.44 | brlcad | the goalof this is for you to learn the concept of dynamic and stack memory quickly as possible so you can apply that knowlege to fast4-g |
| 21:37.08 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:37.28 | brlcad | so keep that in the back of your mind, revisit the code after you get them both working |
| 21:37.47 | hcurtis | Cool. Thank you. |
| 21:39.42 | brlcad | see if you can get fast4-g converted to dynamic by the end of the week with as little assistance as possible (do ask questions, but make them researched questions you cannot find the answer for) so that you maximize your learning |
| 21:40.41 | brlcad | we're busy preparing a release this week, so time will be limited from most of the mentors so leverage all resources at your disposal |
| 21:40.48 | brlcad | (too) |
| 21:41.08 | brlcad | e.g., stackoverflow, searches, asking here, etc |
| 21:46.43 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Inderpreet * 7093 /wiki/User:Inderpreet/GSoC14/logs: Updated dev log for 20th may |
| 21:56.32 | hcurtis | Ok |
| 21:58.14 | *** part/#brlcad ishwerdas (~ishwerdas@59.91.237.167) |
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| 23:17.22 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60756 (brlcad/trunk/CMakeLists.txt brlcad/trunk/include/brlcad_ident.h and 2 others): Apparently include/conf/PATH and its corresponding BRLCAD_PATH were used only in one place - the ident string. The build path isn't particularly useful here, certainly not enough to justify the special complexities of maintaining the include/conf/PATH include in a multi-config environment. |
| 23:22.30 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60757 brlcad/trunk/CMakeLists.txt: This logic is no longer connected to include/conf/PATH, so move it to a more appropriate place after the timestamp is set up and add some descriptive commentary which informs devs of what the code is actually trying to do. |
| 23:25.39 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60758 brlcad/trunk/misc/tools/CMakeLists.txt: Just as in src/other, restore the CMake defaults for misc/tools |
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| 23:58.10 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60759 brlcad/trunk/CMakeLists.txt: Make sure some of the undefed vars are at least set. |
| 23:59.22 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:starseeker * 60760 (brlcad/trunk/misc/CMake/BRLCAD_Summary.cmake brlcad/trunk/misc/CMake/CompilerFlags.cmake): Set UPPER var before first use - managed to break summary printing and possibly flag assignment for multiconfig, but not sure why yet |