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| 16:36.09 | JeffM | in the beginining there was hip-hop and hip-hop had it's goove. And from that groove came the groove of all grooves. Can you dig it?! |
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| 18:33.24 | *** join/#bzchat Astroman (n=47d235b3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:35.05 | Astroman | hey, i'm wondering how to host multiple maps on one computer? |
| 18:35.44 | Astroman | anybody? |
| 18:35.46 | blast007 | run them on different ports |
| 18:35.51 | Astroman | how? |
| 18:35.53 | blast007 | a server for each one |
| 18:36.01 | Astroman | -p? |
| 18:36.03 | blast007 | yeah |
| 18:36.09 | blast007 | and if you're doing public servers |
| 18:36.18 | blast007 | you have to add the port to the publicaddr |
| 18:36.29 | Astroman | ? |
| 18:36.37 | blast007 | like: -p 5156 -publicaddr "yourdomain.com:5156" |
| 18:36.44 | Astroman | oh |
| 18:36.50 | Astroman | or my ip? |
| 18:36.53 | blast007 | yeah |
| 18:36.59 | blast007 | I'd recommend not using an IP though |
| 18:37.08 | Astroman | why? |
| 18:37.12 | blast007 | get a hostname from something like dyndns.org and run their little update client |
| 18:37.24 | blast007 | well, if your IP changes, then you have to go in and update all your config files... |
| 18:37.33 | blast007 | I'm assuming you're running these off a crappy home connection |
| 18:37.38 | Astroman | what if i have a static ip? |
| 18:37.44 | blast007 | do you? |
| 18:37.53 | Astroman | i have access to one |
| 18:37.55 | AAA_awright | Do it anyways. It saves the trouble of remembering an IP |
| 18:37.57 | blast007 | and by static, you mean your external address? or the internet one? |
| 18:38.03 | blast007 | er |
| 18:38.03 | AAA_awright | host means an IP or domain I think |
| 18:38.06 | donny_baker | Astroman: static, isn't always static as one of my employees found out |
| 18:38.06 | blast007 | internal one* |
| 18:38.06 | Astroman | idk |
| 18:38.20 | Astroman | its at my dad's work |
| 18:38.28 | Astroman | he owns a com. store |
| 18:38.36 | donny_baker | then that would be static :) |
| 18:38.36 | blast007 | and they'll let you eat up their bandwidth to run a game server? |
| 18:38.45 | Astroman | it's a pretty nice conection |
| 18:38.51 | Astroman | lo |
| 18:38.54 | donny_baker | it will eat up LOTS of bandwidth |
| 18:38.55 | Astroman | *lo |
| 18:38.58 | Astroman | *lol* |
| 18:38.59 | AAA_awright | If the server is full |
| 18:39.15 | donny_baker | ni run my server on a T1 and max out at ~30 players |
| 18:39.15 | blast007 | yeah, assuming there are actually players there ;) |
| 18:39.19 | AAA_awright | 10. and 192.168. are not Internet addresses |
| 18:39.23 | Astroman | i'm only expecing a few players (if any) |
| 18:39.45 | blast007 | k |
| 18:39.51 | Astroman | i think i can get like .7mb upload |
| 18:39.56 | Astroman | or so |
| 18:40.00 | donny_baker | that will work... bandwith usage goes up exponentially based on the number of players |
| 18:40.09 | blast007 | mb or mB? |
| 18:40.18 | Astroman | mega bytes |
| 18:40.22 | blast007 | k |
| 18:40.26 | Astroman | or bits |
| 18:40.31 | Astroman | im actually not sure |
| 18:40.32 | blast007 | there's a difference :) |
| 18:40.38 | Astroman | i think bits |
| 18:40.44 | Astroman | now that i think about it |
| 18:40.45 | AAA_awright | Everyone, party server at x.y.z:5154! *flood of people crash the connection* |
| 18:40.46 | blast007 | thats not very fast then |
| 18:41.01 | Astroman | ill have to check |
| 18:41.01 | blast007 | my server has 10mbps (megabits per second) |
| 18:41.12 | blast007 | both ways |
| 18:41.21 | Astroman | its DSL, if that clarifys it |
| 18:41.24 | blast007 | not that I use all that, of course |
| 18:42.41 | blast007 | just keep in mind what donny_baker said. he said that a T1 (1.54mbps) was maxed out at 30 players |
| 18:42.55 | blast007 | it's exponential too, not a linear increase |
| 18:42.56 | Astroman | im only thinking like maybe 15? |
| 18:43.02 | blast007 | probably |
| 18:43.37 | blast007 | just don't max out the upstream and make the internet slow for your dad's workplace ;) |
| 18:43.43 | blast007 | does he run the website off that connection? |
| 18:44.00 | Astroman | yes |
| 18:44.06 | Astroman | but it's not busy |
| 18:44.17 | AAA_awright | Exponential not factorial/gamma right? |
| 18:44.24 | Astroman | whoosh |
| 18:44.25 | blast007 | still, if it's a store, and it's loading slowly, that can yeild to lost sales ;) |
| 18:44.32 | Astroman | lol |
| 18:44.32 | blast007 | "hmm, this page isn't loading *close*" |
| 18:44.41 | Astroman | he mostly does repair |
| 18:44.46 | Astroman | and service calls |
| 18:45.03 | donny_baker | Astroman: 15 is about right, could squeeze 20 if they are split between two seperate maps |
| 18:45.16 | Astroman | what do you mean? |
| 18:45.36 | blast007 | if you have 10 players on two servers, you could probably handle that much |
| 18:45.38 | Astroman | besides, there's no website |
| 18:45.39 | blast007 | but not 20 on one server |
| 18:45.45 | Astroman | oh |
| 18:45.57 | *** join/#bzchat eTangenT (n=etangent@71-211-203-172.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 18:45.59 | Astroman | ya, I think maybe 10-15 on one for now... |
| 18:46.15 | donny_baker | so the server could have 2 or more maps... you will max out at ~15 if everyone is on one map... |
| 18:46.26 | Astroman | okay, |
| 18:46.31 | donny_baker | but, you could have 10 players each on 2 different maps |
| 18:46.38 | Astroman | one more Q. |
| 18:46.48 | Astroman | how fast would my server itself be? |
| 18:46.53 | Astroman | *have to be |
| 18:46.53 | donny_baker | more players at the same time on a map = much more bandwith |
| 18:47.00 | Astroman | okay |
| 18:47.03 | blast007 | I've run bzfs servers on a pentium 133MHz with 32MB of RAM ;) |
| 18:47.03 | donny_baker | nnot fast at all |
| 18:47.30 | blast007 | of course, that was like 6 players, but still, it barely even registered on 'top' |
| 18:47.30 | Astroman | i think my com. is P4 at 1.7G, with 1/2 gig of ram |
| 18:47.30 | donny_baker | i think we run ~20 maps on less that 1% of cpu |
| 18:47.52 | Astroman | would that be fast enough? |
| 18:47.56 | donny_baker | most of the time no one is there of course |
| 18:48.04 | blast007 | yeah |
| 18:48.06 | donny_baker | plenty fast enough |
| 18:48.09 | Astroman | lets assume 10 players |
| 18:48.16 | blast007 | like I said, I've run it on a 133MHz server with 6 players no problem :P |
| 18:48.21 | Astroman | lol |
| 18:48.23 | Astroman | okay |
| 18:48.40 | Astroman | what if im remote coneting to it at the same time? |
| 18:48.49 | blast007 | via SSH? |
| 18:48.55 | Astroman | whoosh |
| 18:49.00 | Astroman | hear that? |
| 18:49.03 | blast007 | what OS is that computer running? |
| 18:49.12 | Astroman | linux, but that other one is win. |
| 18:49.28 | Astroman | the server is linux |
| 18:49.34 | blast007 | then linux would be SSH for remote access |
| 18:49.38 | blast007 | unless you're doing something like VNC |
| 18:49.45 | Astroman | whoosh |
| 18:49.48 | Astroman | lol |
| 18:49.58 | Astroman | sry, i have no idea what you mean |
| 18:49.59 | blast007 | SSH == a secure terminal session |
| 18:50.06 | Astroman | okay... |
| 18:50.09 | blast007 | so, typing commands that run on that server then |
| 18:50.24 | donny_baker | how are you planning on doing remote access |
| 18:50.26 | Astroman | oh |
| 18:50.27 | blast007 | ever used PuTTY before? |
| 18:50.32 | Astroman | no... |
| 18:50.57 | AAA_awright | blast007: Wouldn't it be polynomial? Specifically, (x-1)² or x²-x for broadcasting data and linear, x, for downloading it |
| 18:51.01 | donny_baker | you should get familiar with it |
| 18:51.10 | blast007 | AAA_awright: meh, heck if I know |
| 18:51.12 | Astroman | where? |
| 18:51.20 | blast007 | AAA_awright: each player gets sent the data for every other player |
| 18:51.22 | Astroman | ...can i learn |
| 18:51.33 | donny_baker | http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ |
| 18:51.37 | blast007 | AAA_awright: so when a new player joins, that's X-1 more sets of data getting sent out |
| 18:51.39 | AAA_awright | That is players squared... unless my basic math has gone out the window |
| 18:52.27 | Astroman | how many maps could i run at about 5 players per? |
| 18:52.39 | donny_baker | nmaybe 5 |
| 18:52.45 | Astroman | assuming about one half of them are unused |
| 18:52.58 | Astroman | at any given time |
| 18:53.01 | donny_baker | but you could have 20, as long as only 5 were played at a time |
| 18:53.32 | Astroman | so, basically i can have as many as i want as long as not too many of them are being used at the same time? |
| 18:53.35 | donny_baker | the number of maps is limited only by the number of ports and available memory |
| 18:53.44 | Astroman | how much mem. per |
| 18:53.58 | donny_baker | an idle map takes up minimal bandwidth and cpu |
| 18:54.12 | AAA_awright | blast007: The server is broadcasting data for u users to u-1 users, that is O(u²-u) |
| 18:54.18 | donny_baker | depends on the map i guess... ive never runinto that issue |
| 18:54.30 | Astroman | okay |
| 18:55.08 | AAA_awright | Too many flags can take up CPU without any players I thought. But it has to be on the order of tens of thousands |
| 18:55.26 | AAA_awright | Or was that join-time overhead |
| 18:55.32 | AAA_awright | Both I think |
| 18:55.53 | Astroman | but normal num. of flags wouldn't be a problem right? |
| 18:56.02 | donny_baker | right |
| 18:56.11 | AAA_awright | a few hundred no problem. |
| 18:56.34 | blast007 | a few hundred on a Windows bzfs doesn't work though ;) |
| 18:56.44 | blast007 | there's some issue on windows with flags |
| 18:56.53 | Astroman | and i clarified, i can get .7 megaBITs |
| 18:57.01 | Astroman | or so |
| 18:57.12 | AAA_awright | as in 0.7mb/s? |
| 18:57.20 | Astroman | yes |
| 18:57.33 | AAA_awright | hm |
| 18:57.51 | AAA_awright | So what is O here? |
| 18:57.58 | Astroman | i guess, ill just try it ant see... |
| 18:58.31 | AAA_awright | O in O(u²-u) and O(u) should be the same, so O is the packets a single player uploads |
| 18:59.00 | AAA_awright | That, at maximum, is what, 20 *bytes* per second? |
| 18:59.18 | Astroman | one more question, i was testing my server at home (crappy con. non-static ip), and i could connet over the LAN, but not over the internet... |
| 18:59.34 | Astroman | do i NEED a static? |
| 18:59.36 | blast007 | no |
| 18:59.54 | blast007 | you need to configure your router to forward that port (TCP and UDP) to the computer running the server in your house |
| 19:00.11 | blast007 | maybe he DOES need a static IP |
| 19:00.21 | *** join/#bzchat Astroman (n=47d235b3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:00.25 | blast007 | welcome back |
| 19:00.25 | AAA_awright | blast007: Do you know the upload rate for a single player? |
| 19:00.30 | Astroman | oh, thats out of my league |
| 19:00.33 | blast007 | AAA_awright: it depends |
| 19:00.38 | AAA_awright | Worst case |
| 19:00.42 | JeffM | AAA_awright, figure about 4k |
| 19:00.44 | donny_baker | flags, shots... etc |
| 19:00.53 | JeffM | but yeah it'll vary |
| 19:00.59 | AAA_awright | 4kb/s |
| 19:01.02 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:01.08 | AAA_awright | plugs numbers |
| 19:01.17 | JeffM | that's very rough tho |
| 19:01.28 | JeffM | but it'll get you in the ballpark |
| 19:01.32 | JeffM | as you add players and shots it goes up |
| 19:02.22 | JeffM | to clarify that is the server upload, not the client |
| 19:02.26 | JeffM | client upload is a lot less |
| 19:02.32 | donny_baker | as you can probaly figure out, a small change in the anmount of data dramatically changes bandwidth requirements as the number of players increases |
| 19:02.43 | blast007 | *poof* |
| 19:03.13 | AAA_awright | Not bytes, bits. |
| 19:03.15 | AAA_awright | k |
| 19:03.30 | JeffM | bytes |
| 19:03.36 | JeffM | IIRC |
| 19:03.39 | AAA_awright | 4kB/s |
| 19:03.53 | AAA_awright | looks it up with an old Wireshark file |
| 19:04.43 | *** join/#bzchat Astroman (n=47d235b3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:04.46 | Astroman | dang |
| 19:05.02 | Astroman | what was that PuTTY address again? |
| 19:05.04 | donny_baker | cgi:irc will do that |
| 19:05.17 | JeffM | as I said, it's just a rought guide AAA_awright |
| 19:05.21 | donny_baker | just google putty.. its the first on the list |
| 19:05.26 | Astroman | okay |
| 19:07.08 | AAA_awright | I read 16kb/s |
| 19:07.14 | JeffM | ok |
| 19:07.14 | AAA_awright | that is kilobits |
| 19:07.34 | JeffM | ok so about 2 kbytes |
| 19:07.41 | JeffM | how many players? |
| 19:08.19 | AAA_awright | idk, I am still trying to get my units straight |
| 19:08.52 | Astroman | quick question (yes i know, i have alot), do you prefer FFA, CTfF, or other? (for map-making purposes) or which maps do you prefer? |
| 19:09.26 | *** join/#bzchat Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.232.226) |
| 19:09.26 | AAA_awright | CTF |
| 19:10.31 | Astroman | alright, thanks for the help guys, bye |
| 19:11.16 | donny_baker | cu |
| 19:14.00 | AAA_awright | One player difinitively generates 0.00238418579 MBps |
| 19:14.34 | blast007 | 19.53125 kbps |
| 19:15.08 | JeffM | AAA_awright, on a server by themselves? |
| 19:15.21 | AAA_awright | yes |
| 19:15.35 | AAA_awright | Peak, that was. Average is less |
| 19:15.41 | JeffM | and that is from cleint to server or from server to client? |
| 19:15.57 | blast007 | what's the average? |
| 19:15.57 | AAA_awright | client to server. |
| 19:16.05 | JeffM | yeah that's going to be a lot lower |
| 19:16.09 | JeffM | and that is prety much fixed |
| 19:16.17 | JeffM | as that is just the player sending out it's own updates |
| 19:16.23 | AAA_awright | With two players the rates should be the same I assume |
| 19:16.23 | JeffM | it's the server to client that varries |
| 19:16.28 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:16.37 | JeffM | the client to server will only vary on shots |
| 19:16.45 | JeffM | and chat, and how often you turn and stuff |
| 19:16.47 | blast007 | well, except with two players, they're shooting at something ;) |
| 19:16.51 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:16.53 | AAA_awright | heh |
| 19:16.58 | JeffM | it's still a linear thing |
| 19:17.13 | JeffM | server to client is geometric |
| 19:17.39 | JeffM | usualy noone cares about client to server bandwith |
| 19:17.52 | JeffM | as most servers that have bandwith limits have much higher downstream then up |
| 19:17.59 | JeffM | and client to server uses the downstream |
| 19:18.00 | AAA_awright | O1(u²-u) = O2(u) at u=2 where O1=O2 |
| 19:18.08 | AAA_awright | er |
| 19:18.24 | AAA_awright | ... |
| 19:18.43 | AAA_awright | nvm, that is correct |
| 19:20.03 | JeffM | what are you trying to figure out, the total bandwith needed for a server? |
| 19:21.00 | AAA_awright | He should be able to handle 6.5 players if they are all shooting and grabbing flags while changing their acceleration. This is obviously worst case. |
| 19:21.17 | JeffM | what is is upload? |
| 19:21.25 | AAA_awright | 0.7Mbps |
| 19:21.34 | JeffM | that is not client to server boandwith |
| 19:21.40 | JeffM | that is server to client |
| 19:21.45 | AAA_awright | Upload for the server |
| 19:21.48 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:21.51 | JeffM | that is server to client |
| 19:21.59 | JeffM | you were saying your stats were client to server |
| 19:22.03 | JeffM | those use his download bandwith |
| 19:22.23 | AAA_awright | I calculated O from my stats, it should, in theory, be the same. |
| 19:22.25 | JeffM | but yeah he'll be able to hold like 5-7 players |
| 19:22.44 | JeffM | depends on now much they shoot |
| 19:23.10 | AAA_awright | True. -ms 100 will not improve things :) |
| 19:23.21 | JeffM | -ms 5 will screw him over |
| 19:23.32 | JeffM | 1 shot he'll be fine with 7 |
| 19:23.37 | JeffM | 3 shots he'll want 5 |
| 19:23.41 | JeffM | if he wants to keep lag down |
| 19:23.56 | AAA_awright | It is about the same as a player update packet, isn't it? |
| 19:23.57 | JeffM | a 20 player 10 shot server uses about a meg a second |
| 19:24.06 | blast007 | remebers running a server over dialup... :/ |
| 19:24.09 | JeffM | AAA_awright, shots are TCP |
| 19:24.31 | AAA_awright | I had assumed otherwise. Hm. |
| 19:24.37 | JeffM | shots have to go thru |
| 19:24.41 | JeffM | player updates do not |
| 19:24.49 | JeffM | since there will just be another update later |
| 19:24.53 | JeffM | but there is only one shot message |
| 19:26.28 | AAA_awright | True |
| 19:26.41 | AAA_awright | Of course |
| 19:26.49 | JeffM | also that shot isn't multicast |
| 19:26.52 | JeffM | it's sent out to each player |
| 19:27.07 | JeffM | so as you add players the shot data gets multilied |
| 19:27.40 | JeffM | so it adds up fast |
| 19:27.40 | AAA_awright | Multicasting? How so? |
| 19:27.57 | JeffM | it is not multicast |
| 19:28.12 | JeffM | so it's one seperate packet per player |
| 19:29.36 | AAA_awright | I read most Internet ISPs didn't support multicasting, is it done by the router before the Internet if there is one? |
| 19:30.08 | JeffM | they don't |
| 19:30.20 | JeffM | it's a lan only thing |
| 19:30.30 | JeffM | techincaly we have code to suport it, but it's disabled |
| 21:23.22 | *** join/#bzchat L4m3r (n=l4m3r@about/essy/warning/L4m3r) |
| 21:29.42 | *** join/#bzchat Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 21:30.42 | *** join/#bzchat bigbadbucko (n=bigbadbu@user-0c93kho.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 21:30.48 | bigbadbucko | man it's been a while |
| 21:31.40 | donny_baker | hi.. mr play-by-play |
| 21:31.49 | donny_baker | ;) |
| 21:35.14 | bigbadbucko | broother |
| 21:35.31 | bigbadbucko | how's everyone? |
| 21:36.34 | bigbadbucko | ...nvm |
| 21:44.37 | *** join/#bzchat spldart (n=vircuser@c-98-197-19-50.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 21:45.33 | *** join/#bzchat AHA (n=aha@unaffiliated/aha) |
| 22:42.07 | bigbadbucko | Anyone here? |
| 22:44.25 | JeffM | yes |
| 22:52.53 | Birdie | howdhy |
| 22:54.40 | bigbadbucko | dinnertime gimme 10 mins. or so |
| 23:11.54 | bigbadbucko | o back |
| 23:12.00 | bigbadbucko | ok* |
| 23:12.47 | Winny | bigbadbucko: To be frank, no one on IRC cares when you go for dinner |
| 23:14.18 | *** join/#bzchat temp_dist (n=temporal@about/essy/alarming/a-temp-dist) |
| 23:19.54 | donny_baker | hence my mr play-by-play comment |
| 23:20.13 | spldart | w0rd |
| 23:21.17 | Winny | :) |
| 23:31.18 | spldart | Wouldn't it be the way? I'm about to head out on a mini vacation tomorrow and I got sick as hell :( Full of psuedofed and ibuprofen and so cold I'm wearing my bzflag hoodie in teh hizzouse. |
| 23:33.32 | *** join/#bzchat KTL (n=KTL@213.219.188.181.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |