| 00:00:57 | vogon_jeltz | is away: watching TV |
| 07:14:42 | iLL_away | anyone up? |
| 07:14:48 | vogon_jeltz | no |
| 07:14:53 | iLL_away | anyone know how bandwidth intensive a server and client is? |
| 07:15:14 | iLL_away | i've got 140 up for me and my server |
| 07:15:23 | iLL_away | how many clients will I be able to run |
| 07:15:24 | vogon_jeltz | hmmm... I'd say maybe 2 people can play on a 56K modem server |
| 07:15:36 | iLL_away | 2 including the owner? |
| 07:15:39 | vogon_jeltz | yes |
| 07:15:49 | iLL_away | so i'm looking at what then 4-6 |
| 07:15:53 | vogon_jeltz | the netcode in BZFlag is crap... |
| 07:15:59 | vogon_jeltz | so, yeah, about 4-6 total |
| 07:16:22 | iLL_away | hmm |
| 07:16:38 | iLL_away | wanna checkout a new world if you have time? |
| 07:16:42 | vogon_jeltz | maybe |
| 07:16:44 | iLL_away | I gotta fire it up mind you heh |
| 07:16:51 | iLL_away | maybe? heh |
| 07:16:57 | iLL_away | ah forget it =) |
| 07:55:21 | captain_proton | returns |
| 07:56:41 | vogon_jeltz | hi |
| 08:03:10 | captain_proton | wb everyone |
| 08:09:35 | captain_proton | hi BZFlag |
| 08:14:45 | BZFlag | frank says 1.7e2 server does not run on irix and that's why the fx servers are out there. |
| 08:15:18 | captain_proton | bzflag really needs new netcode - the UNKNOWNS are getting terribly common |
| 08:18:45 | captain_proton | any reason why bzfs doesn't run on irix? |
| 08:29:32 | BZFlag | not that I know of. I've not had bug reports, so I didn't even know till frank emailed me after I dropped the fx servers from the list. |
| 08:30:20 | vogon_jeltz | better watch out... those 12 IRIX users out there will be pissed ;) |
| 08:34:47 | vogon_jeltz | watches SCTV |
| 08:38:16 | vogon_jeltz | is away: afk |
| 08:42:33 | BZFlag | heh, well the servers were nice to have. |
| 09:03:47 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:24:41) |
| 09:16:31 | byte_bandit | are there any new releses of bzflag comming up soon? |
| 09:17:05 | byte_bandit | any non cvs versions .. with other words |
| 13:58:20 | Chestal | re |
| 15:32:09 | Chestal | ibot: x de it Hallo |
| 15:32:10 | | Chestal: * What browser you were using. |
| 15:32:57 | Chestal | ibot: x en it Hello |
| 15:32:57 | | Chestal: Ciao |
| 15:33:13 | Chestal | ibot: x it en Sono spiacente, nessun italiano parlato in qui |
| 15:33:14 | | Chestal: Spiacente Sono, no Italian spoken in here |
| 15:33:30 | Chestal | ibot: x it en provarlo con gli inglesi |
| 15:33:33 | | Chestal: provarlo with English |
| 15:34:05 | Chestal | ibot: x en it Ich kann leider gar kein Italienisch sperchen |
| 15:34:06 | | Chestal: Il kein Italienisch del luccio del leider del kann di Ich sperchen |
| 16:12:38 | Chestal | hi lupi |
| 16:12:43 | lupinator | hi |
| 16:44:45 | captain_proton | you speak italian Chestal? |
| 16:44:46 | captain_proton | you speak italian Chestal? |
| 16:44:49 | captain_proton | ack |
| 18:56:26 | lupinator | BZFlag: do you know why boogie isn't listed anymore? |
| 19:05:21 | BZFlag | boogie was a 1.7fx server, yes? I dropped 1.7fx servers from the list. |
| 19:06:23 | BZFlag | After that I got indications that 1.7e2+ bzfs does not run on IRIX. This is news to me. I'd like shell access to a server to debug it. |
| 19:41:34 | Chestal | boogie waf fx3 on Irix last time I checked |
| 19:42:09 | Chestal | I remember that somewhere kill-9 (boogie admin) discusses that he had problems with current version on Irix |
| 19:42:17 | Chestal | but I know no details |
| 19:44:48 | BZFlag | Chestal: got an email address for him? I'd like to get it fixed. |
| 19:45:08 | captain_proton | hi BZFlag |
| 19:45:24 | Chestal | BZFlag: hmm, I don't think so |
| 19:45:43 | Chestal | I don't remember where I read it, maybe on the EZBoard that is linked from www.bzflag.de |
| 19:47:35 | BZFlag | fumes a bit. |
| 19:48:14 | BZFlag | If folks don't email me or open bug reports on SF, I will not know thier bugs exist. =( |
| 19:48:22 | captain_proton | is about to kill whoever has their microwave on |
| 19:50:36 | captain_proton | really screwing with my monitor (bad power stuff in the building) |
| 19:50:38 | Chestal | BZFlag: I think having both sf+mailing lists and the web based ezboards is a problem. Most people seem to use the latter for discussions instead of the mls |
| 19:51:04 | Chestal | BZFlag: I would even guess that a lot of peopel using the ezboard do not know about sourceforge or the mailing lists there |
| 19:58:51 | BZFlag | There are SF forums as well. |
| 19:59:28 | BZFlag | I did not setup the ezboard forums. nor do I read them often. I don't think I've ever posted there. |
| 20:01:27 | Chestal | I read them and post from time to time |
| 20:10:03 | BZFlag | how to people find the ezboard without knowing about the main site? |
| 20:23:23 | lupinator | why did you drop fx servers? i think a lot of players would like to see it listed again |
| 20:24:34 | BZFlag | lupinator: I was getting 2-3 emails a week about the udp firewall bug. |
| 20:24:47 | BZFlag | that bug does not exist in any of the versions I put out. |
| 20:25:14 | BZFlag | I'd email the server admins to warn them and ask them to upgrade but I have no idea who they are. |
| 20:25:52 | BZFlag | I appretiate all those that run servers, but we need a better way to contact each other. |
| 20:26:48 | BZFlag | I did not know of the IRIX problem with 1.7e* versions. I'd like to get it fixed so those servers can return without the udp bug. |
| 20:27:08 | lupinator | maybe kill -9 should a message mentioning the udp problems (maybe a link to bzflag.de) |
| 20:27:26 | BZFlag | link to what on bzflag.de? |
| 20:27:32 | lupinator | i think oma knows his adress |
| 20:27:44 | lupinator | some readme |
| 20:27:52 | BZFlag | perhaps he should open a bug report on SF (what a concept) |
| 20:27:57 | lupinator | that was distributed with the fx versions |
| 20:28:48 | lupinator | i'll try to contact somebody who knows more about boogie |
| 20:29:13 | BZFlag | I'm not going to track down and read every bzflag fan site looking for problems. There is an approved method for submitting and tracking bugs. that is the _only_ approved method. |
| 20:29:50 | BZFlag | It's great that there are fan sites out there! I love it that it's getting so much attention. |
| 20:30:26 | BZFlag | But SF is _the_ development site. if things are not reported there, they are not reported. |
| 20:31:48 | lupinator | imho you should allow fx servers as long as there are no working irix versions out there |
| 20:32:20 | lupinator | boogie has been a very popular server for years |
| 20:33:54 | lupinator | often there are players who know about the firewalling problems |
| 20:34:21 | BZFlag | yes, but they don't get the mess of support email I get all the time. |
| 20:34:45 | BZFlag | If they listed an admin email address on the comment line, I'd be happy to talk to the admin directly. |
| 20:34:47 | lupinator | just send them to onkel frank |
| 20:35:00 | BZFlag | he's not the admin is he? |
| 20:35:21 | lupinator | but he is responsible for the fx server |
| 20:35:35 | BZFlag | I will be adding a hidden required email field to bzfls soon. |
| 20:36:42 | BZFlag | lupinator: responsible? I sent him the udp fix like 6 months ago. I asked him to update the DL page which still claims that fx is the newest supported version. Nothing has changed. What makes you think he will reply to support email? |
| 20:36:45 | lupinator | won't this break all the servers? |
| 20:37:12 | lupinator | he does |
| 20:37:44 | BZFlag | lupinator: it will be like the IP address patch. servers will need to either a) upgrade to the new release or b) add an email address at the beginning of the server comment which the list server will strip off. |
| 20:37:48 | lupinator | he is not working on fx anymore but he still can explain the problem |
| 20:37:56 | BZFlag | I know the problem. |
| 20:39:29 | BZFlag | is boogie still up? |
| 20:39:51 | lupinator | on 5155 and 5156 |
| 20:40:31 | BZFlag | yep /me just looked. looks like it is still sending ADDs to the list server. |
| 20:41:37 | BZFlag | someone needs to either track down and explain the IRIX issue, or get me access to a box so I can fix it. |
| 21:05:02 | Chestal | I have access to ancient IRIX boxes here |
| 21:05:37 | |ks| | which reminds me... maybe I should make a trip to Weird Stuff before moving away =) |
| 21:17:00 | captain_proton | finishes his algorithms assignment |
| 21:17:03 | Zig | im special |
| 21:17:26 | Zig | proton |
| 21:17:30 | Zig | what grade you in |
| 21:17:58 | captain_proton | that depends |
| 21:18:05 | Zig | past high school? |
| 21:18:11 | captain_proton | yes |
| 21:18:13 | BZFlag | Chestal: check out the latest CVS I just did and try it. |
| 21:18:19 | Zig | what is CVS |
| 21:18:23 | BZFlag | I try to do udp now before multicast. |
| 21:18:32 | | i think CVS is http://www.handhelds.org/sources.html or at http://cvs.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ |
| 21:18:32 | BZFlag | ibot: CVS? |
| 21:18:38 | Zig | the fuck |
| 21:18:41 | BZFlag | heh, well... |
| 21:18:45 | Zig | i dont want no webpage |
| 21:18:53 | Zig | what is it |
| 21:19:01 | | BZFlag: I forgot cvs |
| 21:19:01 | BZFlag | ibot: forget CVS |
| 21:19:02 | captain_proton | CVS is a way to store the source code to a project (such as BZFlag) |
| 21:19:10 | Zig | oookay |
| 21:19:23 | captain_proton | it keeps track of every version of each file ever created, so that if someone screws something up, they haven't killed the project |
| 21:19:30 | | OK, BZFlag. |
| 21:19:30 | BZFlag | ibot: CVS is Concurrent Versions System | handhelds at http://www.handhelds.org/sources.html or at http://cvs.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ |
| 21:19:44 | Zig | ah |
| 21:19:47 | Zig | hey look |
| 21:19:55 | Zig | the both has attitude |
| 21:19:57 | Zig | bot |
| 21:20:08 | Zig | <ibot> OK, BZFlag. |
| 21:20:14 | | Zig is nothing but an ill-borne petrification of villainous rat-farts. |
| 21:20:14 | captain_proton | ibot, insult Zig |
| 21:20:14 | Zig | fight the oppression ibot |
| 21:20:24 | Zig | duh |
| 21:20:37 | captain_proton | heh |
| 21:20:37 | BZFlag | heh, you scared him off. |
| 21:20:55 | BZFlag | Chestal: you there? please try 1.7e3 from cvs on IRIX for me. |
| 21:21:20 | BZFlag | Zig: we scared ya off? |
| 21:21:24 | Zig | no |
| 21:21:29 | BZFlag | ok |
| 21:21:32 | Zig | wanted another bot to produce insults for me |
| 21:21:36 | Zig | but it wasnt there |
| 21:21:53 | | other bots is nothing but a malodorous stack of hugger-muggered snake bait. |
| 21:21:53 | BZFlag | ibot insult other bots |
| 21:21:54 | captain_proton | well i'm afraid i'm off to recitation |
| 21:21:57 | Zig | recitation? |
| 21:21:57 | Zig | of |
| 21:21:58 | Zig | ? |
| 21:22:02 | captain_proton | algorithms |
| 21:22:07 | Zig | what the hell |
| 21:22:09 | Zig | recite it? |
| 21:22:14 | Zig | you have to say it out loud? |
| 21:22:17 | Zig | until you learn it? |
| 21:22:25 | Zig | you |
| 21:22:25 | captain_proton | no - its like a lab adjacent to the lecture |
| 21:22:26 | Zig | want me |
| 21:22:28 | Zig | to type |
| 21:22:30 | Zig | all my words |
| 21:22:34 | Zig | in one sentence, |
| 21:22:36 | Zig | on one line? |
| 21:22:49 | Zig | getting lsightly |
| 21:22:51 | Zig | annoying? |
| 21:23:10 | Zig | ahh |
| 21:23:11 | Zig | oay |
| 21:23:12 | Zig | Okay |
| 21:23:13 | Zig | done |
| 21:23:43 | Zig | Anyone want to answer a computer question? |
| 21:24:03 | BZFlag | no, nobody uses computers here. |
| 21:24:10 | Zig | who cares |
| 21:24:15 | Zig | you'll answer BZFlag |
| 21:24:24 | Zig | Q: Does a computer have a soul? |
| 21:24:29 | BZFlag | no. |
| 21:25:17 | BZFlag | a computer is not a living thing, so that means (to me) no soul. perhaps soul music though. |
| 21:25:19 | asdf | uh |
| 21:25:22 | asdf | Uh |
| 21:25:30 | BZFlag | uH? |
| 21:25:35 | Zig-real | duh |
| 21:25:45 | Chestal | BZFlag: I can try, but not today |
| 21:25:49 | Zig-real | Chestal |
| 21:25:51 | Zig-real | Answer this |
| 21:25:57 | Zig-real | Q: Does a computer have a soul? |
| 21:26:37 | Chestal | Zig: it's a question of software |
| 21:26:46 | Zig | Q: What happens when a computer dies? |
| 21:26:46 | |ks| | ask one |
| 21:26:54 | Chestal | BZFlag: stil interested in kill-9's address? |
| 21:27:23 | Zig-real | what? |
| 21:27:26 | Zig-real | |ks\ |
| 21:27:32 | Zig-real | Does a computer have a soul? |
| 21:27:34 | Zig-real | finally |
| 21:28:03 | |ks| | no, but if you turn it into a fish tank, it can have a sole |
| 21:28:14 | |ks| | or if you use it as a shoe, ftm |
| 21:28:20 | Chestal | bzflag: is multicastign the problem with IRIX? |
| 21:28:21 | Zig | haha |
| 21:28:45 | Chestal | bzflag: I first need to know what's the problem before I can test it |
| 21:28:54 | BZFlag | Chestal: I have no idea. See previous comments on not having IRIX bug reports. |
| 21:29:22 | Chestal | BZFlag: well, ok, I just thoguht cuase you said you chanegd udp / multicast order |
| 21:29:29 | BZFlag | Chestal: see if you can start a public server and get people logged in with udp. I assume that does not work on boogie now with the new version. |
| 21:29:52 | Chestal | ok, but it might take a few days before I will be able to |
| 21:30:13 | BZFlag | Chestal: afaik none of the existing servers are connected via multicast. so I allow that one to fail and prefer the normal udp code instead. |
| 21:31:00 | Zig | are we so vain |
| 21:31:59 | |ks| | bz: quick check on bz networking... TCP between client and server for grabbing flags, registering kills... UDP between server and client for position and shots.... is there any direct client to client communication? |
| 21:32:02 | Chestal | I mailed kill-9 |
| 21:32:32 | Chestal | ks: only with multicasting |
| 21:33:10 | Chestal | ks: everything that uses client<->server UDP now used to be either multicast or client<->server TCP |
| 21:33:40 | |ks| | I have not been able to get UDP working through NAT/firewall... people can see me, but they're bubbles to me... |
| 21:33:51 | |ks| | I assume it's because my client doesn't get the server's UDP packets |
| 21:34:06 | Chestal | ks: yep, then you dont receive UDP packets |
| 21:34:49 | Chestal | BZFlag: could you try to explain what you changed about the UDP code from fx3 to E2 and how that is going to help with masquerading / firewall issues? I didn't quite get it yet |
| 21:35:06 | |ks| | on another note, what causes flags to be "unpickupable"? I was on one.bzflag.org earlier today, and every flag I picked up left a phantom flag until I dropped it |
| 21:36:23 | Chestal | ks: might be related to Tim's single port patches which do not quite work yey |
| 21:37:04 | lupinator | while we are at it: tankmann said that he had a field full of phantom flags when i disabled falgs on ducati |
| 21:37:38 | lupinator | it worked once before, though |
| 21:37:51 | |ks| | on a different note, |
| 21:38:27 | |ks| | I was amused to find that starting a separate audio thread hurt performance in the client I built... theories? |
| 21:39:13 | |ks| | best I've come up with is inefficient context swapping between threads, and/or threads waking up at bad times wrt drawing the window |
| 21:40:12 | Chestal | lupi: might be related to the networkign bug in the client |
| 21:40:28 | Chestal | lupi: I guess lots of mesage are sent at the same time, so they might all get lost |
| 21:41:20 | Chestal | ks: eh, there always is a seperate audio thread, isn't there? so, what are you comparing? |
| 21:43:08 | |ks| | chestal: I've done a Mac OS X port... the Mac OS X Sound manager can do asynchronous sound output, so a separate thread isn't strictly necessary, so I wrote it to do either way and compared |
| 21:43:09 | BZFlag | Chestal: sure. 1.7fx assumes that it can predict the client (source) port number. |
| 21:43:26 | BZFlag | Chestal: for many firewalls this is not true. |
| 21:43:50 | BZFlag | it also a different server side udp port for each client. |
| 21:44:00 | |ks| | I was hoping that multi-CPU machines might benefit by producing the sound in a separate thread... instead, my single-CPU machine has jumpy graphics with a separate thread (but perfectly smooth w/o) |
| 21:44:05 | BZFlag | this will be an issue as soon and tcp is fixed to use only one port. |
| 21:45:26 | BZFlag | the udp code I added to 1.7e2 was franks code with the modification that the server does not predict the client udp port, it just records where the first packet comes from. it also only listens on one udp server port for all udp clients. |
| 21:46:12 | BZFlag | |ks|: the phantom-till-drop bug is new in cvs. it's due to some change in the playerid masq issue. |
| 21:47:08 | |ks| | 'k... I forgot to try it from my e2 build... as long as it doesn't affect others, it doesn't bother me too much =) |
| 21:47:43 | Chestal | ks: ah, so you ave been doing the OS X port. Is it finished? A friend of mien also started to port it a while ago but he stopped working on it befoer it was finished (had other things to do) |
| 21:47:45 | BZFlag | |ks|: the same thread issue exists with win* which also handles threads poorly. We fixes it there by adjusting the thread priorities. |
| 21:48:39 | BZFlag | |ks|: I plan to release the playerid patch as part of 1.7e4 so the bug will exist there unless someone fixes if first. |
| 21:51:06 | Chestal | ok, I'm going home. Didn;t manage to get any work done today :-( |
| 21:51:59 | |ks| | I'd call it beta... there's at least one known issue (it only supports 16-bit display modes), and I removed a lot of the #ifdefs surrounding code that was used by the Mac OS Classic port, so I need to integrate the two Mac ports |
| 21:52:39 | |ks| | hmmm... I'll try adjusting the posix thread priority on the audio thread then |
| 21:52:39 | Chestal | ks: hmm, does the OS X port have anythign in common with classic Mac port? |
| 21:53:24 | |ks| | bz: if you have any idea of where to look, I have lots of free time on my hands right now... |
| 21:53:58 | Chestal | bzflag: I assume you will take a look at the 2 networkign bugs I posted before 1.7e4? |
| 21:54:13 | |ks| | chestal: some... the audio code is mostly the same (in principle), except I use a pipe for the sound command queue, rather than STL... I'm not sure about the graphics |
| 21:54:24 | BZFlag | Chestal: I've been working on those, yes. thanx for the reports! |
| 21:54:39 | |ks| | I was kind of hoping to build a binary that runs on both X and classic, but apparently the OS X build tools can't do that, so I need to play with MPW :{ |
| 21:55:10 | |ks| | i'm hoping they're at least close enough that I can just do a few ifdefs... |
| 21:55:43 | BZFlag | |ks|: where to look for what? the thread priority? check the win32 ifdefs |
| 21:55:50 | Chestal | ks: well, sounds great. So it's no use if my friend starts working on his port again |
| 21:55:54 | BZFlag | I don't recall which file it went in. |
| 21:56:10 | |ks| | though it doesn't appear that the classic port is particularly active, which makes me think it might be better to just dump it (rather than let it get further and further out of date) |
| 21:56:14 | Chestal | ok, I gone for good now |
| 21:56:31 | BZFlag | |ks|: please clean up the patches and submit them. At least other will be able to test them that way. |
| 21:56:43 | |ks| | bz: no, the phantom flag bug... |
| 21:57:03 | BZFlag | we've had a few people work on mac ports, but many of those projects never submitted anything so anyone now has to do it all over again. |
| 21:57:17 | BZFlag | I did get one 1.7d9 port and that's what's in CVS. |
| 21:57:25 | |ks| | ok, will do... does it have to be a pure patch, or can I submit new files in a tarball? |
| 21:58:16 | |ks| | I'll also do a build and release notes for people who just want to try it without having to build it |
| 21:58:23 | BZFlag | |ks|: ahh. the phantom flag. The new code I added replaces the playerid on all packets from a given player and all packets that go to a given player. apparently the flag pickup message is not being handled correctly. |
| 21:58:53 | BZFlag | all the other players actually see you pick up the flag. even your radar and HUD show it correctly, just the view that does not. |
| 21:59:12 | |ks| | i'll try to poke around on that one a bit, but I haven't gotten into the guts much yet, so dunno how much luck I'll have =) |
| 21:59:31 | |ks| | anyway, right now I need to go... ttyal |
| 21:59:33 | BZFlag | |ks|: patch strongly preferred, but anything is better than nothing. the 1.7d9 stuff I merged was one big source tree. |
| 21:59:38 | Chestal | BZFlag: hmm, can you explain that in more detail? I don't quite understand it. What exactly is the bug? |
| 22:00:19 | BZFlag | Chestal: try one.bzflag.org out. you pickup a flag and your HUD and radar show it, but the flag is still sitting on the ground in the view. |
| 22:00:21 | |ks| | the main reason I haven't submitted a patch was that I broke the existing Mac port... didn't want to submit a patch until I had undone the damage |
| 22:00:47 | Chestal | BZFlag: does this happen both will clients using the old and new networking code? |
| 22:00:51 | BZFlag | then when your drop it, it goes away on hud and radar as it should, and teleports on the view to where it should be. |
| 22:01:14 | |ks| | (I wrote OS X parallel to the current macd port, not on top of it) |
| 22:01:18 | BZFlag | Chestal: client net code is not changed yet. I doubt it will be in 1.7e4 |
| 22:02:20 | BZFlag | If we can get all servers upgraded first, hacking the client will be much easier. ie: the new client will not be able to connect to old servers. |
| 22:02:53 | Chestal | BZFlag: does the flag bug only occur sometimes? |
| 22:03:12 | |ks| | it's consistent for me |
| 22:03:20 | BZFlag | |ks|: yeah, please don't submit patches that break the existing stuff. at least not with out a warning to that effect. |
| 22:03:26 | BZFlag | Chestal: no. always. |
| 22:03:40 | Chestal | BZFlag: well, I just ried it one.bzflag.org 5155, works for me |
| 22:03:48 | BZFlag | hmm... udp? |
| 22:03:51 | Chestal | yes |
| 22:04:10 | Chestal | ah, wait |
| 22:04:12 | BZFlag | you pick up a flag and it disappears from the screen? |
| 22:04:37 | BZFlag | hud and radar work.. it's just the 3d view that's broken |
| 22:04:44 | Chestal | I get the same error |
| 22:04:53 | BZFlag | yep. that's it. ;-) |
| 22:04:53 | Chestal | 3D view is inconsistent |
| 22:05:02 | Chestal | hmm, this is similar to the old phantom flag bug |
| 22:05:07 | Chestal | how did we fix that one? |
| 22:05:19 | BZFlag | kinda like the shot/display lag issue. sometime you can hear shots but not see them |
| 22:05:59 | BZFlag | unrelated to the old phantom flag. I think it's in one of the patch*() functions I added. |
| 22:06:03 | |ks| | right |
| 22:06:17 | BZFlag | some packet type that I did not expect. |
| 22:06:18 | Chestal | bzfllag: but the result is quite the same |
| 22:06:23 | Chestal | bzflag: or similar |
| 22:06:29 | BZFlag | yes, true. |
| 22:06:43 | Chestal | so, the client receives MsgGrab from server |
| 22:06:52 | Chestal | but soem other mesasge doesn't work, flagupdate or whatever |
| 22:07:27 | Chestal | hmm, still strange |
| 22:12:00 | Chestal | ok, but now I am really gone :-) |
| 22:12:14 | lupinator | nacht chestal |