| 00:32:37 | EddieNull | if anyone is interested http://www.hzsystems.com/kevin/bzflagX1.7e4.tar.gz |
| 00:32:42 | EddieNull | i ported bzflag to OS X |
| 00:57:12 | BZFlag | EddieNull: soruces or binaries or both? |
| 00:57:30 | BZFlag | any change of getting a patch file that just has the port stuff in it for CVS? |
| 00:57:35 | EddieNull | just the binary, it was a "dirty" port, I'm actually recoding it as we speak |
| 00:58:03 | BZFlag | even a dirty working patch would be nice to have in the SF patches db. |
| 00:58:23 | BZFlag | reminds EddieNull that GPL required shipping source for any binary. |
| 00:59:08 | BZFlag | you can create a wiki page with info on it and links if you like. |
| 00:59:10 | EddieNull | well, a patch will work for the sources, but I don't use the standard make tools in OS X, the project is built using ProjectBuilder |
| 00:59:27 | BZFlag | still ok, just document what you used. |
| 00:59:43 | BZFlag | ie: win32 required m$ vstudio |
| 00:59:49 | BZFlag | er requires. |
| 00:59:51 | EddieNull | a wiki page? you'll have to excuse me, I'm a newbie to bzflag. I just saw the game on sourceforge, ported it so I can play, and have been all weekend :) |
| 01:00:00 | BZFlag | sweet! |
| 01:00:11 | BZFlag | is Tim@Rikers.org, the current maintainer. |
| 01:00:22 | BZFlag | wiki is http://BZFlag.org/wiki/ |
| 01:00:27 | EddieNull | ah, nice to meet you :) |
| 01:00:28 | BZFlag | user editable. |
| 01:00:54 | EddieNull | ah, cool |
| 01:00:58 | BZFlag | on a wiki, anyone with an account can create/edit pages. and on bz wiki accounts are free. |
| 01:02:05 | EddieNull | gotcha. yea, so the plan now that i've taken a break from play for awhile, I'm gonna clean up the sources I modified and then post them along with the binary as well as a patch for SF. I'll have this done in a few hours |
| 01:03:25 | BZFlag | http://BZFlag.org/wiki/view.php?topic=MacOSX&web=Main |
| 01:03:46 | BZFlag | sweet. update that wiki page k? |
| 01:04:13 | EddieNull | will do boss |
| 01:04:43 | BZFlag | excellent! you plan on hanging around? I can add you to the SF project as a porter. |
| 01:04:53 | BZFlag | got a SF account? (also free) |
| 01:04:54 | EddieNull | also, i' having issues with my smtp server and cannot subscribe tot he dev mailing list, any chance you could add my email tot eh list? |
| 01:05:05 | BZFlag | sure. address? |
| 01:05:10 | vogon_jeltz | is away: Urban Astroda-Epsoning |
| 01:05:19 | EddieNull | kevin@hzsystems.com |
| 01:05:55 | EddieNull | my SF user is eddienull |
| 01:06:24 | BZFlag | added to -dev... |
| 01:06:48 | EddieNull | ...and yes, I plan on hanging around for a bit, I'm totaly addicted to this game. When you code for asshole companies all day, it's nice to blow up some tanks :) |
| 01:07:32 | BZFlag | and added to project. |
| 01:08:11 | BZFlag | heh, welcome aboard! That how I started till I was sending Chris more patches than he wanted to deal with, so he handed the project over to me. |
| 01:08:59 | EddieNull | heh, thanks. If I ever get a real break from work, garanteed you'll be getting some patches from em ;) |
| 01:09:47 | BZFlag | you now have CVS write access, but normally I review all patches before posting them, so developers use the SF patch database. If your are _sure_ that a patch will only effect your platform, then feel free to commit it to cvs yourself. but _only if you are sure_. ok? |
| 01:10:30 | EddieNull | of course :) |
| 01:11:13 | BZFlag | excellent. please announce on the -dev list when you are happy with what you have and want people to test. I gave you release permissions on SF too, so feel free to make releases there. |
| 01:11:25 | BZFlag | bbiab |
| 01:11:31 | EddieNull | okay tim, thanks for all the info, etc. now i'm off to code. :) |
| 02:24:27 | EddieNull | hi ks |
| 02:25:22 | |ks| | morning |
| 02:59:43 | EddieNull | hey tim, you around? |
| 03:20:07 | BZFlag | back, sup? |
| 03:23:28 | EddieNull | was wondering the rules on modifiying the bzflag.cxx file, specificly in the main() function when it searches for the -directory attr. Under MacOS X this is not a command-line application, so passing a directory (at this time) is not an option.... |
| 03:23:48 | EddieNull | so I wanted to know if I could change the code to the following without being shuned ;) |
| 03:24:09 | EddieNull | if (db.hasValue("directory")) |
| 03:24:09 | EddieNull | PlatformFactory::getMedia()->setMediaDirectory(db.getValue("directory")); |
| 03:24:09 | EddieNull | #if defined(MACOSX) |
| 03:24:09 | EddieNull | else |
| 03:24:09 | EddieNull | PlatformFactory::getMedia()->setMediaDirectory(GetMacOSXDataPath()); |
| 03:24:10 | EddieNull | #endif |
| 03:24:46 | BZFlag | ponders |
| 03:25:10 | BZFlag | I guess I have nothing against it. |
| 03:25:26 | BZFlag | GetMacOSXDataPath() is an OS thing? |
| 03:25:52 | BZFlag | hmmm. wait... |
| 03:27:04 | EddieNull | yes, i saw you downloaded my binary, you'll notice the data directory is in the same directory as the application, that function simply return the fulll system path to that data directory |
| 03:27:31 | BZFlag | are you building a makefile of sorts? could you just set INSTALL_DATA_DIR for the compile and use that? |
| 03:27:51 | BZFlag | actually I aborted the DL, I was trying to get a directory listing. ;-) |
| 03:28:01 | EddieNull | ah :) |
| 03:28:30 | BZFlag | what's the norm on OSX ? is there a /usr/share typr tree someplace? |
| 03:28:38 | EddieNull | no, that's the problem, right now I am not using the gnu make system, altho it is an option, for faster development I am using Apple's ProjectBuilder IDe |
| 03:29:05 | |ks| | EddieNull: I've got a working OS X port, want it? |
| 03:29:12 | BZFlag | ie: where do games normally store level data etc? (read on;y portions, not prefs or save games) |
| 03:29:26 | |ks| | I haven't produced a public patch yet because it'll likely break the old mac port :/ |
| 03:29:57 | EddieNull | ks, I also have a working port of my own, I'm cleaning it up for a public patch...and thus this conversation :) |
| 03:30:05 | BZFlag | |ks|: as I told EddieNull, broken patches on SF are better that patches hidden on some remote users' machine. ;-) |
| 03:30:13 | |ks| | fair enough... |
| 03:30:48 | |ks| | I created a packages/macos directory with a project builder config, and the requisite src/platform/MacOS* files |
| 03:30:51 | EddieNull | tim, i'm sorry, what did you mean by asking where games save there data? |
| 03:31:26 | |ks| | EddieNull: shall we compare known issues? |
| 03:31:34 | |ks| | (with our respective ports) |
| 03:31:35 | BZFlag | I mean like doom (for example) has WAD files, where do they live? |
| 03:32:49 | EddieNull | ks, sure, just as soon as I get mine working again ;) |
| 03:32:52 | |ks| | BZFlag: Darwin/Mac OS X uses "bundles" for applications and such, so all of BZ's data can be stored in the application's bundle itself... the user just sees a single double-clickable application, which has hidden in it all the needed data |
| 03:33:12 | BZFlag | that makes good sense to me. |
| 03:33:18 | |ks| | so there's little risk of people copying just the application without the WAVs, e.g. |
| 03:33:46 | |ks| | you can still see the individual files if you know how to use a command line, but if you screw things up there, it's your own fault =) |
| 03:34:07 | EddieNull | under MacOS X those files are usualy stored int he same directory as the execuatable, the problem with MacOS X is that the end user is, for the most part, hidden from the UNIX directories such as /usr /share, etc |
| 03:34:08 | BZFlag | since all these resources are part of the distro, that's probably the way to go. |
| 03:34:13 | |ks| | it's really neat, actually... the bundles don't assume a particular platform, so you could have an app that could run on multiple architectures |
| 03:34:31 | |ks| | exactly |
| 03:34:59 | BZFlag | ok, "make it so" quoth Riker. ;-) |
| 03:35:03 | |ks| | EddieNull: but the average user doesn't need to see /usr/share... and there's no reason for BZ to keep any data there anyway |
| 03:35:16 | EddieNull | heh, ks, I was trying to not introduce X's application bundle scheme for the sake of not adding more confusion :) |
| 03:35:45 | EddieNull | ks, I know, I was explaining it to tim :) |
| 03:35:47 | BZFlag | the datafile opens are in the native layer iirc so that would be fine. |
| 03:36:09 | EddieNull | ks, check out my port, www.hzsystems.com/kevin/bzflagX1.7e4.tar.gz |
| 03:36:14 | EddieNull | i think that's the url anyway :) |
| 03:36:25 | |ks| | hey Eddie, what system are you running on? I only have my TiBook to test on, so I don't know how well it works on other machines |
| 03:36:26 | |ks| | tim, have you heard anything about rendering anomolies in the e4? since roughly that time in my local build (OS X), I've started seeing "spikes" on other tanks... not sure if it's specific to me or not |
| 03:37:21 | |ks| | I think they're worse when I turn on some optimizations (-ffast-math, e.g.), but even w/o optimization I still see them (though not as bad) |
| 03:37:30 | EddieNull | ks, heh, my development machine is my TiBook =) |
| 03:37:39 | BZFlag | |ks|: I think there are some redering bugs but I've not been able to track them down. I sometimes see half of tanks etc. |
| 03:38:10 | |ks| | do you have an iDisk? |
| 03:38:26 | BZFlag | could just be some overflows in the code someplace that just show up different on different releases. |
| 03:39:11 | EddieNull | ks, no, I don't have an iDisk, sorry |
| 03:39:43 | EddieNull | wheee!. okay, I got my "new" port working now, so what steps would be next to get this out into the public? |
| 03:39:43 | |ks| | gonna take a while to download, for lack of better than a modem... still moving into my new apt |
| 03:39:50 | |ks| | ok, so let's compare notes... |
| 03:40:38 | |ks| | I used CGDirectDisplay to grab the display for OpenGL... Carbon for event management (want to switch to Cocoa, though)... Carbon for sound (very similar to existing mac audio code, but with a pipe for the message queue) |
| 03:41:17 | |ks| | I don't allow people to change display depth, just size, since that seems to mess up the OpenGL context (er, CGLContext, I should probably say) |
| 03:41:33 | |ks| | multi-button mice aren't supported yet (which is why I want to use Cocoa event management) |
| 03:41:51 | |ks| | no support for playing in a window, either |
| 03:42:13 | EddieNull | pretty much how I did it, CoreGraphics for the display handling, Carbon for events (not Carbon Event Manager tho, just WNE) as well as the carbon sound manager. I wanted to use CoreAudio, but the bz sounds are to simple to require CoreAudio features |
| 03:43:21 | |ks| | ditto, 'cept I used just NextEvent (no Wait) |
| 03:43:23 | EddieNull | multi-button works for me, atlast on my logitech trackman, altho the middle button don't work, wierd |
| 03:43:55 | |ks| | oh, are you using a separate audio thread? I implemented it, but found it degraded performance... think I need to adjust the pthread's priority |
| 03:44:10 | |ks| | I didn't think carbon supported multiple mouse buttons |
| 03:44:24 | EddieNull | i use WNE in order to free up time to other processes, this way it's easy to get my ass kicked in bz while chatting with you folks on my external monitor :) |
| 03:44:34 | |ks| | (at least, not officially) |
| 03:45:32 | |ks| | oh, I also don't support function keys, since they don't seem to be easily supported through Carbon... I added a check for Cmd-. to replace the F12 "quick exit" |
| 03:45:35 | |ks| | wait, does your port work under classic? I thought project builder couldn't build CFM binaries |
| 03:45:49 | EddieNull | it was my understanding that multibutton mice work fine, it's thumbwheels that have an issue in carbon, and thus prolly the issue I am seeing with my middle button, which is a thumbwheel |
| 03:46:00 | EddieNull | no, this is a MacOS X only port |
| 03:46:04 | |ks| | OS X is preemptive, no need to explicitly yield |
| 03:46:44 | EddieNull | i know, but I like being nice tot he OS in any case, and thus is why when I get time I will swictch event handing to use the carbon event manager for better application performance |
| 03:47:23 | |ks| | I specifically didn't use Wait, in case that method is called w/o a pending event... don't want to starve the graphics routines running in the same thread |
| 03:48:30 | |ks| | don't bother, your app gets suspended many times a second whether you yield or not =) (I'm not sure what the time slice is under darwin, but it's pretty short) |
| 03:48:56 | EddieNull | hmmm, that could be true as well. I'll do some instramentation work on the 2 different methods and see which one proves best, but in the end I don't think it makes much of a diference, interesting point tho and I will look into it |
| 03:49:28 | |ks| | beside, I wouldn't be surprised if explicit yields were just ignored anyway |
| 03:49:47 | |ks| | I don't think it really matters, like I said, I only chose as I did as a "just in case" |
| 03:50:19 | |ks| | btw, what do you get for frame rates? I typically get ~30fps with full graphic detail (1152x768x16b) |
| 03:51:26 | EddieNull | never looked at my frame rates, I just did this port in ~3 hours, but it is certainly acceptable, gameplay is smooth and it has yet to glitch on me at all |
| 03:52:28 | EddieNull | what is your TiBook config? mine is 500Mhz/512MB |
| 03:53:20 | |ks| | ditto |
| 03:53:43 | |ks| | oh, another question... did you do your port on top of the existing mac port, or create parallel code? |
| 03:55:32 | EddieNull | cool, like I said, I've never had an issue with my fps, gameplay is great and in addition to my Ti screen @ 1152x768, when at my desk (like now) I also have connected an external monitor @ 1920x1440, quite a high resolution for the built-in graphics chip |
| 03:56:11 | EddieNull | ...and gameplay ont he Ti screen is still great while pushing both screens |
| 03:56:39 | sekn | quick off topic question: about how long can you run one of those notebooks on a single battery charge? |
| 03:56:42 | |ks| | wow, I haven't gotten it to play on an external monitor yet, though haven't tried after recent updates |
| 03:57:07 | |ks| | I can't create the context with the extra screen... I assumed it ran out of video memory (only 8M, iirc) |
| 03:57:26 | |ks| | theoretically, 5-5.5 hours, in practice at least a couple |
| 03:57:46 | |ks| | max life if you turn the display brightness all the way down and cycle the processor down |
| 03:58:14 | sekn | you all run OSX? |
| 03:58:15 | EddieNull | my battery last around 3-4 hours, and that's usualy with me compiling on it all the time with my mp3's playing nonstop, so without any energy saving stufff I get around 3 hours, if I was just lightly using the machine I could prolly squeese 4-5 hours :) |
| 03:58:29 | EddieNull | yep, OS X :) |
| 03:58:45 | |ks| | yes, OS X is a beautiful thing =) |
| 03:58:54 | sekn | it is very slick... |
| 03:59:24 | EddieNull | ks, are you downloading my port? |
| 03:59:32 | |ks| | already did... |
| 03:59:40 | |ks| | though I'm surprised to see the data in a separate directory |
| 04:00:10 | |ks| | I'm uploading mine to a public web server... I'll give you an address in a few, so you can compare |
| 04:00:18 | EddieNull | oh :) well, i'm about to post a new one with the sources included so you can get that stuff when it's up and compare what I am doing with your port |
| 04:00:22 | EddieNull | cool |
| 04:00:42 | EddieNull | data in a different directory? |
| 04:01:21 | |ks| | yes, I put it inside the application bundle and overrode the appropriate method in MacOSMedia to find the correct directory |
| 04:01:27 | captain_proton | ooh big crown |
| 04:01:31 | captain_proton | crowd rather |
| 04:01:40 | sekn | hihi proton |
| 04:01:53 | EddieNull | re proton :) |
| 04:02:12 | EddieNull | ks, bah, that's the sloppy way. :) that's what I'm trying to avoid :) |
| 04:02:23 | |ks| | grumbles about modem speeds |
| 04:02:45 | |ks| | why sloppy? gives the user a single icon to keep track of |
| 04:03:10 | |ks| | the whole point of subclassing is to be able to inherit and/or override methods as necessary |
| 04:03:22 | captain_proton | hey sekn |
| 04:03:28 | captain_proton | i moved home |
| 04:03:34 | sekn | CP: I've been messing with reiserfs, its looking good, fast, blah, blah... |
| 04:03:41 | captain_proton | heh |
| 04:03:43 | |ks| | your solution is to have the user copy data to /usr/share? sounds much less elegant to me.... |
| 04:03:57 | EddieNull | that is true, but is that a good thing? I'm actually a newbie to bzflag but don't people want easy access to the data directory to add/remove new items? |
| 04:04:02 | captain_proton | i need to move the bz server to babylonia once it comes back up - don't think people want my server running on 56k :) |
| 04:04:14 | captain_proton | reinstalled from source yet? |
| 04:04:25 | EddieNull | no, you don't have to put the directory anywhere, it runs as-is |
| 04:04:31 | |ks| | EddieNull: the people who will want to change the resources are the people with enough skill to modify the files inside the bundle |
| 04:04:42 | sekn | I'm waiting to see if reiserfs lives up to its name |
| 04:05:17 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 04:05:35 | captain_proton | i think i've decided to get another drive before i do it, and move /home onto that |
| 04:05:35 | EddieNull | ks, i agree, I just used to be an apple employee, and doing things like that, while it may be for the best, is still a no-no :) |
| 04:05:48 | captain_proton | that way i don't have to back up 30-40GB of data :) |
| 04:07:30 | EddieNull | ks, if you've downloaded my port, you'll see that simply launching the app "just works", no modifications or installing required, much the way yours does i'm sure, just you have your data directory hidden from view, while mine is publicly accessable. |
| 04:09:03 | EddieNull | i'm also trying to stay as consistant as possible with other platforms, oter platforms don't have cool bundles like we do, thus these data directory is accessable....and so is mine :) |
| 04:09:20 | EddieNull | bah :) |
| 04:09:29 | captain_proton | EddieNull: port? |
| 04:09:45 | EddieNull | i've ported bzflag to Mac OS X |
| 04:10:19 | EddieNull | ...as did ks apperantly, and we're just dicussing what we did different |
| 04:10:27 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 04:11:14 | EddieNull | ...and I assume that your the same captin proton that maintains the server I've been getting my ass kicked on for the past few days? ;) |
| 04:11:29 | captain_proton | yeppers |
| 04:12:26 | captain_proton | hmmm...i wonder where sekn went |
| 04:12:33 | EddieNull | aw shit, I'm missing the soppranos :( |
| 04:13:37 | sekn | I went nowheres, btw: compusa has IDE drives at $2.50/gig! |
| 04:13:56 | captain_proton | starts up xcalc |
| 04:14:07 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 04:14:20 | EddieNull | ahhh, the beauty of wireless laptops, I can just pickup and move into the living room :) |
| 04:15:14 | captain_proton | EddieNull: ooh... |
| 04:15:32 | captain_proton | oh so SLOW.... |
| 04:15:38 | captain_proton | hates 56k |
| 04:16:15 | EddieNull | heh, I have not been on a modem in like 8 years, I can only imagine :) |
| 04:16:16 | captain_proton | sekn: too bad i can get an 80gb drive for $50 less than that from pricewatch |
| 04:16:36 | captain_proton | well...i just went from one of the fastest connections anywhere to it... :P |
| 04:19:40 | EddieNull | wb ks |
| 04:20:11 | |ks| | not using the most stable network config right now =) |
| 04:21:22 | |ks| | I started up your port briefly... it seems to be missing a few features |
| 04:21:42 | BZFlag | |ks|: you on the bz SF project? |
| 04:21:54 | EddieNull | I'm aware that starting a server does not work, what other issues did you find? |
| 04:22:00 | BZFlag | EddieNull: you are. please feel free to add a download diretory on SF and upload there. |
| 04:22:10 | BZFlag | or just do SF releases. |
| 04:22:22 | |ks| | BZFlag: I update from the sourceforge cvs, but I don't have any real access to it |
| 04:22:31 | BZFlag | I expect to convert almost the entire site over to the wiki at some point. |
| 04:22:39 | BZFlag | |ks|: SF username? |
| 04:22:41 | |ks| | I do have a SF account though... |
| 04:22:53 | |ks| | should be stimmj |
| 04:23:03 | EddieNull | tim, I was going to wait do to a SF release until I have the OS X version using the GNU make system like the other platforms instead of requiring Apple's ProjectBuilder to build it from source |
| 04:23:09 | |ks| | (double-checking, but i |
| 04:23:15 | |ks| | m 95% sure that's right) |
| 04:24:04 | BZFlag | Jonathan Stimmel ? |
| 04:24:41 | |ks| | EddieNull: in response to your comment before I disappeared, I would argue that it's more important to mold the app to fit the OS than the other way around... there are ways to have a single app bundle and still allow people to customize (I already gave my suggestion for a simple approach) |
| 04:24:43 | |ks| | yep, that's me |
| 04:24:51 | BZFlag | EddieNull: no problem. You could just dump the source and binary to the web tree someplace if you like. |
| 04:25:01 | BZFlag | and do a full SF release later. |
| 04:25:43 | EddieNull | i'm uploaded my new port (binary) and the sources to my web server right now, I'll also update the wiki area to refelect that |
| 04:26:34 | BZFlag | |ks|: you now are on the team. welcome! same disclaimer though, please submit patches to SF as the norm, and only directly commit platform fixes that are sure to not break any other platform. |
| 04:27:02 | EddieNull | the thing I am thinking about now is that apparently have 2 OS X ports, mine and ks's. What one gets submited as the base project to SF? You don't want 2 different ports, do you? |
| 04:27:21 | BZFlag | nope, work it out. ;-) |
| 04:27:39 | EddieNull | ks, rock paper siccors? |
| 04:27:55 | BZFlag | first come first served? |
| 04:28:33 | BZFlag | seriously, as soon as one it in there, you can both do shared development off cvs to update things. |
| 04:28:39 | |ks| | EddieNull: from what I've seen of yours (very little, admittedly =), mine's a little more mature... I did the initial "quick port" a few months ago, and have had some time to flesh it out a bit... I'd like to see what you've done and compare, but we should probably merge ours together |
| 04:28:43 | BZFlag | er s/it in/is in/ |
| 04:29:25 | EddieNull | tim, did you catch our conversation earier about the location the the bz data directory? ks belives it's location should be relitave to the OS the application is hosted on, I belive in keeping the port as consistint as possible with the other platforms... |
| 04:29:41 | EddieNull | both methords are good, but you as the maintainer should choose what one you like best |
| 04:29:53 | |ks| | I made mine parallel to the original mac port... patches to shared code tests for __APPLE__ for preprocessor conditional, which I suspect will break the existing mac port :-{ |
| 04:29:55 | EddieNull | because other then that issue I think our ports are pretty much done the same way |
| 04:30:12 | captain_proton | original *mac* port? /me was not aware there was a mac port... |
| 04:30:33 | BZFlag | I'm not too concerned with keeping the same on all platforms, I am concerned with avoiding #ifdefs all over. I'd like to start cleaning them up rather that adding more. |
| 04:30:44 | |ks| | captain_proton: look under packages/mac... it's all in there, though I don't have the tools to compile it |
| 04:30:51 | BZFlag | so if we can isolate the loading code, then the platform can put them where it likes. |
| 04:30:52 | EddieNull | ks, I am uploading my source code right now, you can then downloaded it and see what i've done |
| 04:31:05 | |ks| | BZFlag: I only had to add 2 new #ifdefs, and modify a few (6-10) existing ones |
| 04:31:29 | BZFlag | captain_proton: there is a mac port in the cvs tree. I've played it. ;-) |
| 04:31:37 | captain_proton | is it decently playable? |
| 04:31:46 | |ks| | the new ones were because Darwin/OS X uses "#include <OpenGL/OpenGL>" :-{ |
| 04:32:04 | captain_proton | eww |
| 04:32:06 | |ks| | EddieNull: I |
| 04:32:27 | |ks| | EddieNull: I'll post my code tomorrow, I'm on a slow connection right now.... |
| 04:32:33 | EddieNull | well, I belive, and correct me if I'm wrong, ks. but your method of having the directory inside the bundle is fixed, correct? if the user moves the directory somewhere else your port cannot find it, is this correct? |
| 04:33:27 | |ks| | EddieNull: you mean if someone moves the data directory out off the bundle? e.g. "mv BZFlag.app/Contents/Resources /somewhere/else"? |
| 04:33:39 | EddieNull | correct |
| 04:33:50 | BZFlag | captain_proton: it has some issues, but it's playable. |
| 04:34:00 | |ks| | then yes, but users shouldn't be messing inside the bundle anyway... if you get into the command line and f*ck things up, it's your problem =) |
| 04:34:38 | |ks| | otoh, I think people are more likely to "mv mynewsound.wav BZFlag.app/Contents/Resources/shot.wav", which won't break it |
| 04:35:26 | BZFlag | I think I agree with that. if someone on unix does mv /usr/share/bzflag /somewhere/else that will break too. |
| 04:35:34 | BZFlag | if it hurts, don't do it. ;-) |
| 04:35:36 | |ks| | if customization is that important, we can document an alternate directory, e.g. "$HOME/Library/BZFlag/data" for overriding resources... or if you happen to know how to add support for plugins that people could just drop on the app... |
| 04:35:56 | EddieNull | i agree, however you see, my method allows the user to put the data directory whereever the like...just like the linux platform. I think the best thing to do is perhaps have tim decide on how the port should go. moulded around the OS or moulded around con |
| 04:36:36 | |ks| | i'm more concerned with people who *don't* know how to use a command line... people who might move the app but not the data... aren't Mac developers supposed to try to make their apps fool proof? =) |
| 04:36:39 | EddieNull | for example, your port can use the bzflag resources "config" file, right? because they would not be allowed to use the -directory flag to specify location because it is fixed? |
| 04:37:18 | BZFlag | the *nix versions look in the default tree, say /usr/share/bzflag, and then in ./bzflag/ and then ./. and only if the files are not in any does it fail. |
| 04:37:22 | |ks| | EddieNull: correct, in fact my port strips any command line arguments because OS X seems to pass some sort of gibberish when you double-click an app |
| 04:37:28 | EddieNull | yes, but this is on a Mac-native app, it's a cross-platform app that, IMHO, should stay as consistant as possible with other platfiorms |
| 04:38:03 | |ks| | if you want consistant, then you require people to run it from Terminal ;) |
| 04:38:10 | BZFlag | what's the command line crap that gets passed in? |
| 04:38:17 | |ks| | and technically the app isn't cross-platform, the code is |
| 04:38:35 | EddieNull | heh, yes, the code is cross platform, not the app |
| 04:38:48 | BZFlag | I would like to keep the command line working even though the platform does not normally use it. (that is provided there is one). |
| 04:38:55 | |ks| | BZFlag: don't remember exactly, but when you double-click an icon, you can't really supply command-line args anyway =) |
| 04:38:59 | captain_proton | BZFlag: but not /usr/share/bzflag...for some reason the default *nix path is /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/bzflag/data |
| 04:39:23 | BZFlag | can you edit a shortcut icon to pass args? this works on windows. |
| 04:39:45 | BZFlag | I know people that have one icon for base game and one with "-solo 4" etc. |
| 04:39:45 | |ks| | BZFlag: so would i, but I couldn't find documentaiton on what that argument meant |
| 04:40:06 | EddieNull | right, under X GUI you cannot pass command-line arguments, but you can however read in fromt he bzflag prefs file and setup your parimiters that way, including the -directory? |
| 04:40:28 | BZFlag | captain_proton: ah, legacy, yeah. rpm and .deb are set to /usr/share/bzflag |
| 04:40:32 | |ks| | BZFlag: also, supporting command-line arguments requires that we filter them to cull out ones that aren't supported (e.g., I don't currently support windowed play) |
| 04:40:40 | BZFlag | captain_proton: I'll likely change that to the new default at some point. |
| 04:40:43 | captain_proton | legacy crap is dumb :) |
| 04:40:51 | |ks| | EddieNull: http://www.rpi.eud/~stimmj/BZFlag.app.sit |
| 04:40:55 | |ks| | er... |
| 04:41:00 | |ks| | EddieNull: http://www.rpi.edu/~stimmj/BZFlag.app.sit |
| 04:41:49 | BZFlag | |ks|: even so I would prefer to do that. add a platform discardThisArg() call if you like and stub the platforms that work. |
| 04:42:05 | |ks| | EddieNull: I had thought of creating a prefs window that pops up before bzflag's main() is called... just hadn't gotten around to implementing it yet, and wasn't high on my list of priorities |
| 04:42:22 | BZFlag | I think the X11 ones should be handled like that. |
| 04:42:48 | BZFlag | |ks|: ugh. strongly prefer not to do that. |
| 04:43:24 | BZFlag | much prefer to add the options to the internal menus |
| 04:43:53 | BZFlag | menu handling needs to be enhances to autoscale text with limits that force adding pages. |
| 04:43:59 | |ks| | yeah, but otherwise you force users to learn to use the command line to switch to windowed play (assuming it worked)... is it more important to not have a dialog or to make the game more widely accesible? |
| 04:44:16 | BZFlag | I'd like to make the menus usable at 256x192 which is the minimum resolution at present. |
| 04:44:33 | EddieNull | okay, my binary and source are now online at http://www.hzsystems.com/kevin/bzflag/ |
| 04:45:28 | BZFlag | |ks|: other options? could the game always start in a window and then have an option on the menu to change back and forth which saves the value but does not take effect till restart? |
| 04:45:41 | |ks| | have you taken a look at mine yet? it's less than a 2M download |
| 04:46:21 | BZFlag | or prehaps show the user prefs file as a text document or some other easily editable format? they could use build in tool to edit it? |
| 04:46:43 | EddieNull | well, I agree with both tim and you ks on this one, I would like to have my port almost an exact clone of what other platforms have, without adding Mac-specific things, but I also would like to have the option open to insert mac dialogs for such thigns as |
| 04:47:06 | BZFlag | I woudl not even mind a standalone bzfprefs binary to edit the configs. it should share code with the normal binary as much as we can set that up. |
| 04:47:25 | |ks| | BZFlag: changing between full screen and window is a bit weird, though... basically requires reinitializing all graphics and creating a new OpenGL context... it's possible, I'm sure, but less than elegant |
| 04:47:52 | BZFlag | I'd like to do it on Linux/X11/OpenGL so perhaps we should look into it? |
| 04:48:37 | EddieNull | doh, I forgot to fix my resolution support int he new code |
| 04:48:43 | BZFlag | it would be sweet to have it click in on pause so that you could check email etc. without leaving the game. |
| 04:49:19 | captain_proton | BZFlag: yes - pretty easy with SDL :) |
| 04:49:28 | captain_proton | about the bzfprefs, why not just have a better menu system? |
| 04:50:02 | |ks| | my intention had been to leave my port as-is (full screen only, possibly readding command-line arguments), then start thinking towards a 2.0 rewrite that might solve some of the OS X annoyances and generally clean up the bz code (in particular, all those annoying #ifdefs) |
| 04:50:42 | BZFlag | captain_proton: patches welcome. ;-) |
| 04:51:02 | captain_proton | well...i guess i do have a month break... |
| 04:51:03 | |ks| | yeah, one thing I wish my port could do was "step aside" to check an IM or email... it currently gets total control of the screen, and won't relinquish it until it exits =) |
| 04:51:07 | captain_proton | perhaps i'll do it |
| 04:51:40 | BZFlag | |ks|: pause on windowed frees the mouse. that's what I do. then I switch res so that the window fills the screen. |
| 04:53:41 | |ks| | yeah, that's pretty standard... I always play full screen, though (under Linux), and I'm lazy, so I took the easiest approach to full screen play =) |
| 04:53:45 | EddieNull | i have temporarily removed my posting of my OS X src, I forgot to fix one thing in it....and now that the soprannos are over, I can get back to work :) |
| 04:55:45 | EddieNull | ks, did you say your source was online? I'd like to look at it and compare |
| 04:56:07 | |ks| | I put the binary at the URL I listed above... haven't put the source up there yhet |
| 04:57:11 | EddieNull | yea, I got the binary, that's what propted me to remove my source for the moment, right now for debugging resons I was forcing the display to 640x480, I forgot to remove that yucky code |
| 04:57:35 | |ks| | give me a few minutes, and I'll produce a tarball and patches off the current CVS |
| 04:57:35 | BZFlag | again, feel free (ie: please!) use space on SF for this so that anyone on the project has access, it gets backed up, etc. |
| 04:58:03 | |ks| | EddieNull: what's your ID on SF? |
| 04:58:21 | EddieNull | eddienull |
| 04:59:00 | EddieNull | tim, yes, that's my #1 priority, but first, we need to work out who's code will go on SF as the base |
| 04:59:21 | captain_proton | just post them both in the patches section |
| 04:59:23 | |ks| | and what time zone are you in, ftm? I'm on EST |
| 04:59:55 | |ks| | will put a patch and tarball on SF tomorrow... been putting it off too long |
| 04:59:57 | EddieNull | i'm PST |
| 05:00:44 | |ks| | ah, ther eyou are |
| 05:01:24 | EddieNull | does someone have a sample .bzflag file I could look at? |
| 05:01:27 | BZFlag | EddieNull: even if you just want to upload files to a directory. |
| 05:01:53 | |ks| | how 'bout if we both get our code posted to the patch section (with appropriate disclaimers =)... if you can do it tonight, I'll take a look at yours tomorrow... I'll post mine tomorrow, when I have a better connection |
| 05:02:28 | EddieNull | yes, that's fine, I'll post mine to SF here in a few |
| 05:03:59 | BZFlag | ie: log in as yourself to SF and copy files to /home/groups/b/bz/bzflag/download/ |
| 05:04:22 | BZFlag | feel free to make directories etc as needed. that maps to http://BZFlag.org/download/ |
| 05:04:53 | EddieNull | ah, gotcha |
| 05:04:54 | BZFlag | hmmm... perhaps i should make it dl while I have the chance... |
| 05:05:05 | |ks| | by "log in", do you mean a shell? I haven't really explored SF's capabilities much |
| 05:05:05 | BZFlag | yep. make that dl in both places. |
| 05:06:01 | BZFlag | so scp to username@tuxscreen.net:/home/groups/b/bz/bzflag/dl/ |
| 05:06:15 | BZFlag | er... |
| 05:06:23 | BZFlag | so scp to username@bzflag.org:/home/groups/b/bz/bzflag/dl/ |
| 05:06:43 | BZFlag | too many projects... ;-) then they will be visible on http://BZFlag.org/dl/ |
| 05:07:18 | EddieNull | 10-4 |
| 05:07:45 | BZFlag | |ks|: you get that? |
| 05:08:21 | BZFlag | scp myfile.txt username@bzflag.org:/home/groups/b/bz/bzflag/dl/ and then http://BZFlag.org/dl/ will list them. |
| 05:08:39 | |ks| | nope... i'm starting to think I may have a bad cable |
| 05:08:39 | |ks| | last i saw was "perhaps I should make it dl...." |
| 05:09:08 | BZFlag | hint, I ssh in and do a "ln -s /home/groups/b/bz/bzflag" |
| 05:09:25 | |ks| | a, ok |
| 05:09:30 | BZFlag | then I can "scp this.file timriker@bzflag.org:bzflag/dl/ |
| 05:10:03 | |ks| | good call... so then yes, I have a shell account on SF... cool, another computer to play on =) |
| 05:10:03 | BZFlag | " |
| 05:10:07 | BZFlag | grins |
| 05:10:30 | |ks| | oh wait, that's bzflag.org, not SF |
| 05:10:44 | BZFlag | |ks|: also check the compilefarm for solaris and debian boxes to build on. ;-) |
| 05:10:54 | BZFlag | |ks|: same, just an alias. |
| 05:12:09 | BZFlag | also known as shell1.sourceforge.net and usw-pr-vhost.sourceforge.net and probably many more. |
| 05:12:37 | |ks| | ooh, a linux box... wonder if it has f77 |
| 05:12:52 | BZFlag | so "scp readme.txt timriker@shell1.sourceforge.net:/home/groups/b/bz/bzflag/dl/" would work too. |
| 05:13:16 | |ks| | yep, I'm quite familiar with ssh... I rarely use telnet anymore =) |
| 05:13:42 | BZFlag | |ks|: ls: /usr/bin/*77*: No such file or directory |
| 05:13:55 | |ks| | yeah, not in the standard search path |
| 05:14:06 | |ks| | neither is gcc... guess you can't compile directly on that machine |
| 05:14:49 | |ks| | well, now that my linux box has a home again, I can install f77 on it |
| 05:15:15 | BZFlag | gcc is on the compile farm, perhaps f77 too? |
| 05:15:52 | BZFlag | f77: No input files |
| 05:16:16 | BZFlag | ssh username@compilefarm.sourceforge.net |
| 05:16:31 | BZFlag | just added osx too! |
| 05:17:49 | BZFlag | Welcome to Darwin/MacOS X 10.1! |
| 05:18:10 | BZFlag | bash-2.05$ uname -a |
| 05:18:10 | BZFlag | Darwin usf-cf-ppc-macosx-2.cf.sourceforge.net 1.4 Darwin Kernel Version 1.4: Sun Sep 9 15:39:59 PDT 2001; root:xnu/xnu-201.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh powerpc |
| 05:18:26 | sekn | wow- that's cool |
| 05:19:02 | BZFlag | no f77, no gcc, but the mac gcc port as cc |
| 05:19:33 | BZFlag | and gnu make. ;-) |
| 05:20:17 | BZFlag | /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Headers/OpenGL.h <- will that work? |
| 05:25:52 | captain_proton | my roommate just put up os X...i should ask about access :) |
| 05:31:34 | captain_proton | hmmm...os X compile farm server looks a little loaded :) |
| 05:31:52 | EddieNull | heh |
| 05:35:27 | EddieNull | what is this "default" text that bzflag looks for in the geometry flag? |
| 05:37:17 | captain_proton | probably a default window size |
| 05:39:18 | BZFlag | X11 format 800x600+80+60 means a window of 800x600 and 80 pixels over and 60 down from the top left corner. |
| 05:39:57 | BZFlag | negatives are valid to for position and swap the corner it refers to. ie: -80-60 would be 80 over and 60 up from lower right. |
| 05:41:42 | EddieNull | ah, hmm. okay, I'm looking in the bzflag.cxx file in parse() and under the geometry entry it has if (strcmp(argv[i], "default"), was wondering if I needed to add "default" to the config file somehwre? |
| 05:42:40 | captain_proton | is there a threading mechanism in OS X? |
| 05:42:43 | EddieNull | heh, my roommate just got home and had a good question, what does "BZ" in bzflag stand for? |
| 05:42:56 | captain_proton | battlezone |
| 05:43:01 | EddieNull | yea, OS X has pthreads just like any other UNIX |
| 05:43:03 | BZFlag | ah, I think default is 640x480 |
| 05:44:32 | captain_proton | damn...ps will show them to you |
| 05:44:55 | EddieNull | ah, well when I am parsing the config file it skips over the geometry entry because of that strcmp(argv[i], "default") line |
| 05:46:06 | EddieNull | re abs |
| 05:46:11 | abs | lo eddie |
| 05:46:42 | abs | lo fellas |
| 05:46:47 | captain_proton | hey abs |
| 05:47:27 | EddieNull | abs is my partner in crime, my roommate you see...and the only other person that I can play on OS X with :) |
| 05:47:56 | abs | team Ti : ) |
| 05:48:29 | EddieNull | heh, abs, there was this guy on before |ks| who is also working on an OS X port...on a Ti |
| 05:48:57 | abs | guess you beat him to it |
| 05:49:41 | captain_proton | Ti? |
| 05:49:53 | EddieNull | the apple titanium laptop :) |
| 05:49:55 | abs | powerbook g4 |
| 05:50:01 | EddieNull | aka...my baby :) |
| 05:50:08 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 05:51:07 | abs | lo ks |
| 05:59:48 | abs | is the current map maker a wintendo app? |
| 05:59:54 | abs | noticed .exe |
| 06:00:04 | abs | but saw mention of having to have java installed |
| 06:01:06 | captain_proton | there are a few map makers |
| 06:01:26 | captain_proton | where did you see this one? |
| 06:01:38 | abs | on one of the sites |
| 06:01:54 | abs | also |
| 06:02:07 | abs | how hard is it to add new vehicle models and types? |
| 06:02:12 | abs | ie: biped |
| 06:02:35 | abs | also would you fellas like new tank models? |
| 06:02:52 | abs | have a few i could donate from one of my vaporware games |
| 06:03:06 | captain_proton | uhhh...i haven't really looked into changing models |
| 06:03:18 | abs | glut based though right? |
| 06:03:31 | BZFlag | abs I'd like to try new models, yes. but the net code needs changes in order to use different ones per player. |
| 06:03:37 | abs | question i have would be how to define certain parts of the tank |
| 06:03:42 | abs | ie: turret |
| 06:04:05 | captain_proton | BZFlag: sounds like a good addition to the protocol for 1.8 :) |
| 06:04:16 | BZFlag | see the existing code. ;-) |
| 06:04:45 | BZFlag | I'd like to move the models to external shape files soon to prepare for the move. they are converted to code now. |
| 06:05:02 | abs | ya |
| 06:05:08 | abs | i grilled eddienull about it |
| 06:05:09 | BZFlag | captain_proton: yes, as well as texture maps for tanks and bases. |
| 06:05:22 | abs | well not to interested in texture mapping |
| 06:05:29 | abs | phong shading is fine |
| 06:05:37 | abs | but the mouse bug needs to go |
| 06:09:26 | captain_proton | BZFlag: and maybe the rest of the world? |
| 06:09:37 | captain_proton | 0:-) |
| 06:10:07 | BZFlag | abs: the idea is to put a "clan" logo on your tank. |
| 06:10:23 | captain_proton | hehehehehe |
| 06:10:29 | abs | btrue |
| 06:10:34 | EddieNull | like |
| 06:10:34 | abs | didn't think of that |
| 06:10:37 | abs | also |
| 06:10:40 | BZFlag | I'd love to convert the entire world over to vrml |
| 06:10:52 | abs | how about graphics for main screen? |
| 06:10:58 | abs | and maybe a HUD? |
| 06:11:03 | BZFlag | sure on both |
| 06:11:25 | abs | i like to think i do good at graphics, specially GUI design |
| 06:11:42 | BZFlag | I insist that it remain playable on non-3d hardware though. |
| 06:11:45 | abs | if you want next week i'll work on some stuff and let you fellas peep it |
| 06:11:51 | abs | nod |
| 06:12:02 | abs | this would just be a prettier main screen |
| 06:12:24 | BZFlag | would be fine to add a -hud option and go hog wild if the original (or similar) remains available. |
| 06:12:25 | sekn | has anyone else used proton's (now lost) HUD patch? |
| 06:12:36 | captain_proton | BZFlag: nonono VRML is bad |
| 06:12:38 | abs | oh |
| 06:12:49 | abs | proton you have HUD patch? |
| 06:12:55 | captain_proton | not anymore :) |
| 06:13:01 | abs | awe : ( |
| 06:13:01 | BZFlag | sekn: nope. but I hope we learned something. |
| 06:13:07 | captain_proton | lol |
| 06:13:10 | abs | oh, was it bad? |
| 06:13:16 | captain_proton | don't worry, i'll rewrite it over break |
| 06:13:19 | captain_proton | no, it was good |
| 06:13:22 | captain_proton | it just disappeared |
| 06:13:26 | BZFlag | captain_proton: I'm not talking vrml for the game, just a vrml model loader for the models. |
| 06:13:50 | captain_proton | BZFlag: vrml is a bad markup |
| 06:13:55 | sekn | transparencies, small fonts, gives a wider view of the field. |
| 06:13:57 | captain_proton | can't we do something proprietary? ;) |
| 06:14:22 | BZFlag | we can, but do we need to? if we do vrml then there are tons of apps that can be used to make models already. |
| 06:14:32 | captain_proton | good point |
| 06:14:50 | abs | or even DXF |
| 06:14:58 | BZFlag | and that's true of all platforms too. |
| 06:15:00 | abs | most apps understand dxf |
| 06:15:03 | captain_proton | vrml 2.x+ has a lot of useless crap though |
| 06:15:29 | BZFlag | DXF might be a good choice, it just is lacking some bits that vrml 2.x adds. |
| 06:15:50 | captain_proton | like what? moving things? triggers? |
| 06:15:57 | BZFlag | I think it is perfectly valid for us to ignore any vrml bits we don't want to handle. |
| 06:16:20 | captain_proton | what does vrml provide that dxf doesn't? |
| 06:16:23 | BZFlag | we are NOT building a vrml browser. I'm just looking for a standard file format. |
| 06:16:51 | BZFlag | object centers and colision info iirc |
| 06:17:37 | BZFlag | I do not plan to use movement or triggers at all. they should not be there, and be ignored if they are, |
| 06:17:43 | BZFlag | no spinning head tanks. |
| 06:18:39 | EddieNull | okay, tim, got the source code all fixed now. You be around for a little bit more so you can help me setup the SF stuff so I don;t fuckup |
| 06:20:47 | captain_proton | hehe |
| 06:27:07 | BZFlag | EddieNull: at this point just do the scp to the dl directory and add wiki pages about it. |
| 06:27:27 | BZFlag | let's wait on a SF "release" until folks have tested and commented on it. |
| 06:27:52 | BZFlag | I don't have an osx system here, so I will likely not be testing, but I do plan on looking at the patches. |
| 06:27:55 | EddieNull | yea, sorry, that's what I meant |
| 06:28:10 | abs | no |
| 06:28:15 | abs | i test it w/ eddie |
| 06:28:17 | BZFlag | of course I'd love to get an osx system as a "donation" ;-) |
| 06:28:24 | abs | err, s/no/nod |
| 06:28:26 | EddieNull | so would I ;) |
| 06:28:53 | BZFlag | I'd do a playstation (or other console) release too if someone donated the development system ;-) |
| 06:30:36 | captain_proton | hey BZFlag: how easy would it be to make keyboard input come from a random device? |
| 06:31:45 | BZFlag | it comes from X devices now, so multiple keyboards/inputs works on X11 under Linux. |
| 06:31:55 | BZFlag | and there is joystick code in there too. |
| 06:32:29 | captain_proton | i was thinking more along the lines of an SNES controller :) |
| 06:32:54 | abs | bzflag isn't to fond of ipmasq |
| 06:33:47 | EddieNull | that's why I was talking earlier about using the Mac's InputSprojet so I could use my gravis gamepad :) |
| 06:35:28 | BZFlag | abs: works fine on the client end. I'm ipmasqed here. |
| 06:35:52 | BZFlag | I'm still working on some server mods though to get that to one port. |
| 06:36:01 | EddieNull | i'm double ipmasqed here =) |
| 06:36:08 | BZFlag | that's why the bot networking is partially broken in 1.7e4 |
| 06:36:23 | BZFlag | EddieNull: that should still work. |
| 06:36:39 | EddieNull | it does :) |
| 06:37:17 | BZFlag | captain_proton: check the old joystick patch on SF, it should touch all the right places. |
| 06:37:48 | BZFlag | it's integrated now, but the patch will just let you see all the changes in one place. |
| 06:39:39 | captain_proton | wait - how does one activate the joystick stuff? |
| 06:46:30 | BZFlag | -joystick /dev/foo or something like that. |
| 06:47:47 | captain_proton | ooh! it might work already then |
| 06:49:34 | EddieNull | tim, how do I edit the wiki page? |
| 06:52:04 | EddieNull | nevermind, figured it out, it was easy :) |
| 06:57:40 | BZFlag | captain_proton: does that mean you are trying it now? ;-) |
| 06:57:59 | EddieNull | tim or proton, my smtp is still broken, could one of you announce on the dev list for me about the OS X port and that I would like some feedback, http://www.hzsystems.com/kevin/bzflag/ |
| 06:59:02 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i would but my controller assembly is elsewhere |
| 07:00:33 | BZFlag | heh. ok. |
| 07:00:46 | BZFlag | EddieNull: sure. sending. |
| 07:03:37 | EddieNull | thanks |
| 07:44:16 | abs | what about moving in one direction and the ability to aim in another? |
| 07:51:08 | BZFlag | abs not unless it is a net protocol server option thing. |
| 07:51:26 | BZFlag | the ease of play is one of the Good Things about bzflag. |
| 07:52:14 | BZFlag | steerable muzzles would give experienced players a much larger advantage than they have now. |
| 07:52:33 | BZFlag | cool, but not fun for everyone. |
| 08:02:34 | sekn | I have captain_proton's web of SNES controllers... |
| 08:21:58 | captain_proton | sekn: i want them |
| 08:59:22 | sekn | cp: me too, haha |
| 10:16:18 | iLLf8d | lo all |
| 10:16:27 | iLLf8d | I just to a communication error connection rejected? |
| 10:16:30 | iLLf8d | whats up with that? |
| 10:34:53 | iLLf8d | I think i've only gotten that one other time thought it was a fluke tho |
| 10:35:01 | iLLf8d | happend about a month or so ago |
| 10:35:06 | iLLf8d | this last one a few min ago |
| 18:48:06 | |ks| | hey tim, how do I reference the dl/ directory again? I've got a tarball in it, just need the URL |
| 19:33:05 | |ks| | ok, submitted patch 494289 with my OS X port.... release notes included in the patch notes |
| 20:14:51 | BZFlag | |ks|: http://BZflag.org/dl/ |
| 23:40:37 | captain_proton | sekn: there's a linux kazaa apparently |