irclog2html for #bzflag on 20021119

`00:05.33`	`captain_proton`	`this is bizzare`
`00:05.43`	`captain_proton`	`its like its constantly getting menu events`
`00:06.22`	`scanline`	`hrm...`
`00:06.39`	`scanline`	`lt-pgserver: relocation error: lt-pgserver: undefined symbol: os_child_returncode`
`00:07.09`	`scanline`	`hmm, maybe it's linking against an old version of libpgserver.so`
`00:07.29`	`scanline`	`heh, yep`
`00:08.05`	`captain_proton`	`working on opengl happiness?`
`00:08.14`	`scanline`	`almost`
`00:08.24`	`scanline`	`working on the ability to link pgserver into a client as a library`
`00:08.30`	`scanline`	`which will lead to opengl happiness`
`00:08.49`	`scanline`	`got tired of debugging :)`
`00:09.31`	`scanline`	`Does jetstream have its own portability layer, or does it use SDL for things like timers and threads?`
`00:09.51`	`captain_proton`	`its got a layer on top of SDL`
`00:10.01`	`scanline`	`k`
`00:10.34`	`scanline`	`pgserver has a portability layer too, but it's very simple as pgserver doesn't ask much of the OS. A module for that could be written that makes pgserver use jetstream's portability layer I guess`
`00:11.26`	`captain_proton`	`once i get this annoying menu issue wrinkled out i'll add real joystick support to bzflag :)`
`00:11.34`	`scanline`	`neat`
`00:19.02`	`*** join/#bzflag Cell (alton@pD9590728.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`00:24.58`	`Cell`	`what a terrible night`
`00:25.25`	`Cell`	`gat tot go`
`00:25.27`	`Cell`	`bye`
`00:47.15`	`*** join/#bzflag wankerspanker (~3fe2caaa@chat.ircnet.org)`
`01:19.00`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@pD9E47E94.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`01:19.16`	`ak\|ra`	`moin`
`01:31.39`	`*** join/#bzflag prodan (dan@phoenix.vwl.uni-mannheim.de)`
`01:34.04`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@pD9E47522.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`01:42.56`	`*** join/#bzflag [STC]creeperz (~42e70dac@chat.ircnet.org)`
`01:43.07`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@p508839B0.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`01:43.07`	`[STC]creeperz`	`I FIXED THEM!!`
`01:43.13`	`[STC]creeperz`	`They both work now!`
`01:44.01`	`[STC]creeperz`	`I removed all of the teleporters and links out of the teahouse and replaced only vital ones`
`01:44.10`	`[STC]creeperz`	`ne1?`
`01:44.48`	`[STC]creeperz`	`I have a small question though, How can you tell which side is 0 and which is 1?`
`01:45.48`	`[STC]creeperz`	`jzaun`
`01:48.26`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@pD9E472B5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`02:08.24`	`*** join/#bzflag Pinguin (~Pinguin@pc212.hf.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de)`
`02:16.48`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a212-113-187-169.netcabo.pt)`
`02:19.58`	`Pinguin`	`:-)`
`02:22.49`	`*** join/#bzflag bomber (~bomber@ap97.physik.uni-frankfurt.de)`
`02:22.53`	`bomber`	`moin`
`02:27.38`	`Pinguin`	`moj bomberchen ...`
`02:29.11`	`bomber`	`Pinguin weisst du etwas ueber uClinux ?`
`02:32.01`	`ak\|ra`	`wat macht ihr denn nur?`
`02:32.02`	`ak\|ra`	`moin`
`02:33.56`	`bomber`	`akira: experimente :o)`
`02:34.56`	`ak\|ra`	`boese boese`
`02:35.02`	`ak\|ra`	`mit uclinux?`
`02:35.08`	`ak\|ra`	`boese boese ^ 2`
`02:36.54`	`bomber`	`hast du erfahrung damit?`
`02:37.10`	`ak\|ra`	`noe`
`02:37.15`	`ak\|ra`	`aber was wollt ihr machen?`
`02:38.27`	`bomber`	`ich habe eine programmable Karte-gebaut :o) AD/DA`
`02:39.25`	`ak\|ra`	`aha`
`02:39.30`	`ak\|ra`	`und brauchst jetzt nen minilinux?`
`02:39.37`	`bomber`	`und will ich eine alte Kiste kaufen`
`02:39.43`	`ak\|ra`	`aha`
`02:39.48`	`ak\|ra`	`kaufen?`
`02:39.49`	`bomber`	`und bisschen spielen :o)`
`02:39.53`	`ak\|ra`	`wie alt will soll sie sein?`
`02:40.06`	`bomber`	`muhaaaa alt genug`
`02:40.12`	`ak\|ra`	`p130?`
`02:40.57`	`bomber`	`ja...kann sein....aber auch pentium ii ist nicht schlecht`
`02:41.30`	`ak\|ra`	`also nicht soooo alt`
`02:41.44`	`ak\|ra`	`ich hab naemlich noch 1 2 kisten hier rumstehen`
`02:41.47`	`bomber`	`in diesem geschaeft ist das uralt :o))`
`02:41.54`	`bomber`	`wau`
`02:41.55`	`ak\|ra`	`p135 klasse mit sdram slots`
`02:42.36`	`bomber`	`wie gross ist der speicher?`
`02:42.56`	`ak\|ra`	`soviel du reinbaust`
`02:43.15`	`ak\|ra`	`du kannst max 256 ram reinknallen und das mach ich heute oder morgen bei einem dieser dinger hier auch`
`02:43.22`	`ak\|ra`	`kann auch sein dass die 150 mhz haben`
`02:43.32`	`ak\|ra`	`jedenfalls hab ich noch genau 2 mit sdram slots`
`02:43.39`	`ak\|ra`	`wenn du einen willst, porto und er ist deiner`
`02:43.42`	`bomber`	`und disk?`
`02:43.52`	`ak\|ra`	`disk kann ich dir bis nen gig reinbauen`
`02:44.17`	`bomber`	`motherboard ist von wem`
`02:44.32`	`ak\|ra`	`sind digital rechner`
`02:44.38`	`ak\|ra`	`ich glaube orginal intel`
`02:44.45`	`ak\|ra`	`fx... venturis glaub ich`
`02:45.06`	`ak\|ra`	`ich nehm die dinger immer um router aufzuziehen`
`02:45.39`	`bomber`	`wenn ich eine festplatte kaufe...werden die unterstuetzt :o)`
`02:45.48`	`bomber`	`ich muss es ueberpruefen`
`02:46.11`	`ak\|ra`	`also, da du eh linux nehmen willst -> ja`
`02:46.20`	`bomber`	`:o))`
`02:46.26`	`bomber`	`ich meine von BIOS`
`02:46.39`	`ak\|ra`	`das interessiert dann nicht`
`02:46.50`	`ak\|ra`	`kleine platte zum booten .. grosse woanders`
`02:46.52`	`ak\|ra`	`fertig`
`02:47.29`	`bomber`	`fuer wieviel?`
`02:47.41`	`ak\|ra`	`<ak\|ra> wenn du einen willst, porto und er ist deiner`
`02:48.30`	`bomber`	`hm.......ok`
`02:54.48`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a212-113-187-169.netcabo.pt)`
`02:57.09`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a212-113-187-169.netcabo.pt)`
`03:03.23`	`*** part/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a212-113-187-169.netcabo.pt)`
`03:06.22`	`ak\|ra`	`bomber: kein porto`
`03:15.31`	`bomber`	`danke anke :o)`
`03:16.57`	`ak\|ra`	`"vielleicht werd ich eines tages mit einer bitte an dich herantreten, vielleicht auch aber nie" :)`
`03:16.58`	`ak\|ra`	`pate`
`03:19.48`	`bomber`	`ich war immer treu der Familie :o)))`
`03:20.26`	`ak\|ra`	`:)`
`03:20.29`	`ak\|ra`	`fredo`
`03:27.46`	`Pinguin`	`Ahem ... alte recher zu vergeben?`
`03:28.55`	`Pinguin`	`Akira: ?`
`03:29.15`	`*** join/#bzflag bzdoug (~blah@adsl-39-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`03:29.34`	`ak\|ra`	`wasn?`
`03:30.00`	`Pinguin`	`Rechner zu vergeben? Habe prinzipiell Interesse ...`
`03:30.19`	`ak\|ra`	`har`
`03:30.40`	`Pinguin`	`Du hast nicht zuf�llig noch einen f�r mich?`
`03:30.52`	`ak\|ra`	`ich muss ertsmal den hier zusammenbauen, den an bomber rausschicken, den an ne freundin vergeben und dann schauen was uebrig bleibt`
`03:30.54`	`ak\|ra`	`ok?`
`03:31.19`	`Pinguin`	`ok ... brauche nur Pentium .... muss nur mpg123 schaffen ....`
`03:31.43`	`Pinguin`	`habe noch einen alten 486DX33 ... der schafft es nicht :-(`
`03:31.47`	`ak\|ra`	`laesst sich warhscheinlich einrihten`
`03:31.51`	`Pinguin`	`danke`
`03:31.51`	`ak\|ra`	`ich weiss, die bringens nich`
`03:32.07`	`ak\|ra`	`wohnst duz nearby bomber?`
`03:32.16`	`Pinguin`	`ja`
`03:32.20`	`ak\|ra`	`ok, ich schick2`
`03:32.33`	`Pinguin`	`danek`
`03:32.39`	`Pinguin`	`ups ... danke`
`03:32.48`	`ak\|ra`	`koennt ja spenden an ... ueberweisen :)`
`03:33.48`	`Pinguin`	`hast du eine Amazon wunschliste ?`
`03:35.31`	`ak\|ra`	`buecher?`
`03:35.32`	`ak\|ra`	`cool`
`03:35.36`	`ak\|ra`	`mhhh`
`03:35.39`	`ak\|ra`	`:)`
`03:35.41`	`Pinguin`	`als danke-sch�n`
`03:35.44`	`ak\|ra`	`ich denk drueber nach`
`03:35.47`	`Pinguin`	`OK`
`03:36.01`	`ak\|ra`	`bis wieviel wollt ihr zusammenlegen?`
`03:36.14`	`Pinguin`	`bpmber?`
`03:36.20`	`bomber`	`ja ich sehe`
`03:36.47`	`bomber`	`40 Sk ?`
`03:36.53`	`bomber`	`muhaaa`
`03:37.01`	`bomber`	`nur witz...schuldigung`
`03:37.02`	`Pinguin`	`brb ...`
`03:37.15`	`ak\|ra`	`mir egal .. is eure idee`
`03:37.28`	`ak\|ra`	`nur danach is die wahl des buches entscheidend :)`
`03:43.00`	`Pinguin`	`Such Dir was aus bis 40Euro ...`
`03:45.47`	`ak\|ra`	`groovy`
`03:45.54`	`Chestal`	`hmm, who is this purple squadron (Kirby+Fake)?`
`03:46.18`	`*** join/#bzflag prodan (dan@phoenix.vwl.uni-mannheim.de)`
`04:02.37`	`ak\|ra`	`bomber: hat sogar usb seh ich grade ..lol`
`04:59.02`	`*** join/#bzflag MrCooper (~daenzer@ssda149.dialup-stud.ethz.ch)`
`05:38.20`	`bomber`	`Pinguin: als ich apmd abgeschaltet habe, funktioniert alles gut :o)`
`05:38.38`	`bomber`	`ibot ducati?`
`05:38.38`		`bzfquerylong ducati.bzflag.org 5156`
`05:38.39`	`bzbot`	`prodan (G): 7 (9-2). fred (R): -8 (2-10).`
`06:07.35`	`MrCooper`	`is bzflag playable over a 56k modem?`
`06:07.53`	`ak\|ra`	`yep`
`06:08.10`	`ak\|ra`	`but i would like to kick you everytime you want o connect coz your lag is so high`
`06:09.37`	`MrCooper`	`heh, well unfortunately I don't have a choice right now`
`06:10.09`	`ak\|ra`	`yeah .. so do i :)`
`06:20.26`	`*** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (dbrosius@mxfcl1x19.chesco.com)`
`06:28.15`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@pD9E472B5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`06:49.00`	`*** part/#bzflag bomber (~bomber@ap97.physik.uni-frankfurt.de)`
`07:14.46`	`*** join/#bzflag ak\|ra (~akira@pD9E472B5.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`07:35.47`	`*** join/#bzflag bomber (~bomber@ap97.physik.uni-frankfurt.de)`
`07:37.27`	`ak\|ra`	`da isser wieder .)`
`07:38.55`	`bomber`	`:o)`
`07:45.40`	`*** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (dbrosius@mxfcl8x116.chesco.com)`
`07:59.05`	`*** join/#bzflag prodan (dan@phoenix.vwl.uni-mannheim.de)`
`07:59.12`	`prodan`	`ibot ducati`
`07:59.12`		`bzfquerylong ducati.bzflag.org 5156`
`07:59.13`	`bzbot`	`sbin (R): 4 (12-8). trainin' (R): -22 (12-34). BiKo (R): -2 (2-4). Nishi (G): 0 (5-5). Fluffy (G): 2 (29-27).`
`08:09.10`	`bomber`	`ibot ducati?`
`08:09.10`		`bzfquerylong ducati.bzflag.org 5156`
`08:09.11`	`bzbot`	`prodan (R): 3 (4-1). trainin' (R): -35 (21-56). fred (G): 0 (0-0). Nishi (G): 1 (13-12). Fluffy (G): 13 (52-39).`
`08:09.28`	`bzdoug`	`~lart prodan`
`08:22.53`	`bzdoug`	`~insult prodan`
`08:35.37`	`*** join/#bzflag wankerspanker (~3fe2caaa@chat.ircnet.org)`
`08:41.30`	`*** join/#bzflag chsh[] (~chsh@207.245.233.114)`
`08:43.01`	`wankerspanker`	`i finally connected to this place for some reason i could not connect for 2 days`
`08:48.45`	`*** join/#bzflag bzdougggg (~Doug@adsl-39-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`08:58.45`	`*** join/#bzflag PatLabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.202)`
`09:04.29`	`*** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~Patlabor2@208.48.199.202)`
`09:25.22`	`bomber`	`enough is enough...bye`
`09:25.50`	`*** part/#bzflag bomber (~bomber@ap97.physik.uni-frankfurt.de)`
`10:02.16`	`Patlabor221`	`ok if each Teleporter has a huge "F" and a "B" on it, you think that will tell everyone what is the front and the back?`
`10:02.34`	`doug_school`	`maybe`
`10:03.22`	`doug_school`	`if you make it non transparent or something so people wont see F on the B side`
`10:04.02`	`doug_school`	`oh cool, Xchat corrects teh to the`
`10:04.42`	`*** join/#bzflag anaconda (~na@212.41.71.134)`
`10:04.48`	`anaconda`	`hi`
`10:05.32`	`doug_school`	`ih`
`10:05.49`	`anaconda`	`;-)`
`10:06.26`	`anaconda`	`loosch_guod`
`10:08.31`	`doug_school`	`lol`
`10:13.56`	`Patlabor221`	`you only see the F from the F side and the B from the B side, and they are transperant :)`
`10:14.21`	`doug_school`	`slick`
`10:16.34`	`Patlabor221`	`actualy you have to do special stuff to get a plane visible from both sides`
`10:16.39`	`Patlabor221`	`so this is the normal way.`
`10:17.03`	`Patlabor221`	`backface culling is allways on`
`10:20.17`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlag (timr@rikers.org)`
`10:20.24`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o BZFlag ] by ChanServ`
`10:21.07`	`doug_school`	`cool`
`10:21.27`	`doug_school`	`will there be grouping suppoer?`
`10:21.52`	`Patlabor221`	`I don't know yet`
`10:21.53`	`doug_school`	`implemented?`
`10:21.56`	`doug_school`	`k`
`10:21.58`	`Patlabor221`	`I have broken soo much`
`10:22.09`	`Patlabor221`	`I would like to make it work like it used to first`
`10:22.19`	`doug_school`	`indeed`
`10:23.18`	`Patlabor221`	`that and get the new link definitons working`
`10:24.42`	`doug_school`	`hm`
`10:26.04`	`Patlabor221`	`they do apear to be working, just some issues with teleport drawing`
`10:26.11`	`anaconda`	`wasn't here for a long time - any news in bzflag land?`
`10:27.12`	`doug_school`	`~news`
`10:27.16`	`doug_school`	`nope`
`10:27.21`	`doug_school`	`Patlabor221: hmm`
`10:28.59`	`Patlabor221`	`offfta huge bug with link drawing`
`10:29.51`	`doug_school`	`oh?`
`10:30.01`	`Patlabor221`	`I need to add a mode that will show all the objects names floating above them too`
`10:31.00`	`doug_school`	`that would be slick`
`10:31.10`	`doug_school`	`and a mode that would show all the links`
`10:32.27`	`Patlabor221`	`like draw nonselected links?`
`10:33.02`	`doug_school`	`yea`
`10:33.15`	`doug_school`	`would be cool looking and it would help in designing it`
`10:33.29`	`Patlabor221`	`cool looking is not allways uselfull`
`10:33.42`	`doug_school`	`or maybe be able to select multipull links`
`10:34.02`	`Patlabor221`	`right now it's just gonna be one selection`
`10:34.07`	`doug_school`	`yea`
`10:34.16`	`Patlabor221`	`due to how the world class handles it.`
`10:34.33`	`doug_school`	`hm`
`10:41.02`	`*** join/#bzflag Cell (alton@pD9E50E5F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`10:41.15`	`Patlabor221`	`well presently it allways draws the link Glyphs for each link, just not the line for each of them`
`10:41.23`	`Patlabor221`	`the line is only for the selected one`
`10:41.56`	`doug_school`	`hmm, k`
`10:42.12`	`Cell`	`i dont needed to write any save function to save my 3d editor scene objects to a *.cel file!`
`10:42.37`	`Cell`	`but nevetheless i can do it`
`10:42.44`	`Cell`	`quess how?`
`10:43.05`	`Patlabor221`	`class serialsiation`
`10:43.09`	`Cell`	`right`
`10:43.21`	`Patlabor221`	`can do the same thing in MFC`
`10:43.42`	`Patlabor221`	`but don't change the class ever :)`
`10:43.46`	`Cell`	`and i c# it does the serialization automatically, so i did not write a line of code`
`10:43.49`	`*** join/#bzflag andrew (~andrew@stirling.mezzonet.net)`
`10:43.57`	`Patlabor221`	`gething those to update from one verison to another is "fun"`
`10:44.07`	`Cell`	`oh i can change the class but only extend`
`10:44.08`	`doug_school`	`.cel`
`10:44.24`	`Patlabor221`	`yes, you can't remove anything`
`10:44.30`	`Patlabor221`	`or change what something means`
`10:44.34`	`Patlabor221`	`with out doing stuff.`
`10:44.45`	`Patlabor221`	`and you can't save back to an older verison.`
`10:44.46`	`Cell`	`thats right`
`10:45.22`	`Patlabor221`	`<PROTECTED>`
`10:45.22`	`Cell`	`but its so comfortable`
`10:45.27`	`*** join/#bzflag Mayhem (~Mayhem@stirling.mezzonet.net)`
`10:45.32`	`Patlabor221`	`the entire doc view thing`
`10:45.34`	`Mayhem`	`hi all`
`10:46.28`	`Patlabor221`	`hello`
`10:47.21`	`doug_school`	`ellohey`
`10:49.15`	`Cell`	`visual studio 2003 beta2 is available`
`10:49.38`	`Patlabor221`	`so they are just gonna make a new one, and not fix .net?`
`10:49.42`	`Patlabor221`	`that's funny`
`10:49.46`	`Cell`	`thats good cause there are some bugs in this crappy version`
`10:50.11`	`Patlabor221`	`that means they are going to charge for bug fixes.`
`10:50.42`	`Cell`	`no its vs .net 2 and has new runtime ver 1.1`
`10:51.08`	`Patlabor221`	`if it's got a new product name`
`10:51.10`	`*** join/#bzflag Terminator (~Terminato@public1-seve4-6-cust16.walt.broadband.ntl.com)`
`10:51.13`	`Patlabor221`	`then they will charge for it`
`10:51.14`	`Cell`	`also rc1 of win .net server 2003 is available`
`10:51.28`	`Terminator`	`hi all`
`10:51.35`	`Mayhem`	`hi Terminator`
`10:51.36`	`Patlabor221`	`hello`
`10:51.40`	`Cell`	`hi`
`10:51.48`	`Terminator`	`hihihi`
`10:52.30`	`Terminator`	`in true prodan style`
`10:54.24`	`Patlabor221`	`gahhh 3 5 cds for the bloddy thing`
`10:54.36`	`Terminator`	`what thing?`
`10:54.49`	`Patlabor221`	`VC .net 2003`
`10:54.59`	`Terminator`	`35?`
`10:55.06`	`Cell`	`same as last time`
`10:55.07`	`Patlabor221`	`5 CD sorry`
`10:55.14`	`Patlabor221`	`only realy need 3`
`10:55.18`	`Terminator`	`k that makes more sense`
`10:55.40`	`Terminator`	`my brother has visual studio .net`
`10:55.45`	`Terminator`	`the latest version`
`10:55.51`	`Terminator`	`student one`
`10:55.54`	`Cell`	`2003?`
`10:56.15`	`Patlabor221`	`that would be the regular v 7 .net`
`10:56.16`	`Cell`	`i have enterprise architect version`
`10:56.17`	`Terminator`	`yeah`
`10:56.29`	`Patlabor221`	`yes cell, but you stole it`
`10:56.34`	`Cell`	`no`
`10:56.38`	`Cell`	`from father`
`10:56.43`	`Terminator`	`.net acedemic :-P`
`10:56.47`	`Terminator`	`its cheaper`
`10:56.48`	`Cell`	`he's a programmer`
`10:56.51`	`Terminator`	`but same as pro`
`10:56.56`	`Patlabor221`	`he uses it as well?`
`10:57.05`	`Cell`	`no he usese c++ :)`
`10:57.09`	`Cell`	`vc6.0`
`10:57.23`	`Patlabor221`	`ahhh, he's the smart man in your famialy then.`
`10:57.33`	`Cell`	`of coz`
`10:57.53`	`Terminator`	`my bro used to do c++`
`10:57.58`	`Terminator`	`now he does c#`
`10:57.59`	`Cell`	`i learn the new stuff and then he asks me how it works, :)`
`10:58.02`	`Patlabor221`	`well it just looks like they updated the .net api, tha'ts it`
`10:58.14`	`Patlabor221`	`nothing else relay new feature wize`
`10:58.18`	`Patlabor221`	`and some new STL stuff.`
`10:58.25`	`Cell`	`c# stl?`
`10:58.41`	`Patlabor221`	`no not in C#`
`10:58.49`	`Terminator`	`c# is the newer version of c++`
`10:58.51`	`Patlabor221`	`c# has most of STL allrady in it`
`10:59.03`	`Patlabor221`	`no c# is not a newer versionof C++`
`10:59.06`	`Cell`	`yes, but not really`
`10:59.09`	`Patlabor221`	`it's a new languate`
`10:59.17`	`Patlabor221`	`based on C++ and some of Java`
`10:59.26`	`Terminator`	`yeah exactly`
`10:59.30`	`Patlabor221`	`heavaly tied to the .net framework`
`10:59.34`	`Terminator`	`its got sum c++ in it`
`10:59.34`	`Patlabor221`	`it does not replace c++`
`10:59.43`	`Terminator`	`i know it don't`
`10:59.44`	`Cell`	`i know`
`10:59.45`	`Patlabor221`	`it took some things from it`
`10:59.57`	`Cell`	`like c++ from c`
`10:59.59`	`Terminator`	`its like a spin off or what ever u want to call it`
`11:00.01`	`Patlabor221`	`objective C is more like the next version of c++`
`11:00.10`	`Terminator`	`k`
`11:00.20`	`Patlabor221`	`it's Visual J++ 2.0, since MS couldn't call it that or be suied`
`11:00.31`	`Cell`	`j#`
`11:00.42`	`Patlabor221`	`j# is java with .net bindings`
`11:00.48`	`Patlabor221`	`little difrent`
`11:00.52`	`Terminator`	`k`
`11:00.54`	`Cell`	`lol`
`11:01.09`	`Patlabor221`	`remember when MS got suied by sun for changing the java language too much?`
`11:01.20`	`Terminator`	`i do not have a clue bout all this stuff but my bro does`
`11:01.31`	`Terminator`	`but i pretend i understand`
`11:01.34`	`Terminator`	`:-)`
`11:02.01`	`Cell`	`why should u know this stuff, if u are 25 it wont exist anymore`
`11:02.12`	`doug_school`	`Patlabor221: alphebet`
`11:02.17`	`Terminator`	`lol i suppose so`
`11:02.19`	`doug_school`	`or spirals`
`11:02.35`	`Patlabor221`	`still good to know it now, and learn as it changes, not play catch up`
`11:02.41`	`doug_school`	`and thats improper grammer`
`11:02.55`	`jpablo`	`<PROTECTED>`
`11:03.13`	`Terminator`	`k`
`11:03.14`	`Patlabor221`	`I know it's no realy`
`11:03.29`	`Patlabor221`	`I was just making an example`
`11:03.41`	`Patlabor221`	`oC takes C++ where it needs to go`
`11:03.48`	`Patlabor221`	`makes it all cool and stuff.`
`11:03.59`	`Mayhem`	`Java takes C++ where it needs to go`
`11:04.34`	`Patlabor221`	`and the SLOWS the piss out a it`
`11:04.45`	`jpablo`	`humm, oC is what C++ needed to be since it born.`
`11:04.54`	`Patlabor221`	`yes I agree there`
`11:05.03`	`Patlabor221`	`I wish there was more support for oC`
`11:05.07`	`doug_school`	`qbasic is the ultiment soluction`
`11:05.13`	`Mayhem`	`hahahhahahaa`
`11:05.15`	`Patlabor221`	`oc Kicks Java's ass in power`
`11:05.28`	`jpablo`	`Patlabor221: get a mac, there oC rules the world :P`
`11:05.48`	`Patlabor221`	`but I don't want a siposable computer`
`11:05.59`	`Patlabor221`	`that costs $500 more then a comparable PC`
`11:06.03`	`Patlabor221`	`that has no games.`
`11:06.04`	`doug_school`	`lol`
`11:06.12`	`Mayhem`	`burn all high level languages - program is assembler!`
`11:06.14`	`Terminator`	`g2g`
`11:06.15`	`Patlabor221`	`tho OSX is cool`
`11:06.15`	`*** part/#bzflag Terminator (~Terminato@public1-seve4-6-cust16.walt.broadband.ntl.com)`
`11:06.18`	`Mayhem`	`s/is/in`
`11:06.21`	`doug_school`	`indeed`
`11:06.34`	`doug_school`	`never! only cobol!`
`11:07.08`	`doug_school`	`cobol is insane, to print "hello world" it takes 25 lines of code`
`11:07.09`	`Mayhem`	`ewww. Fortran rules!`
`11:07.40`	`Patlabor221`	`well you 2 go spend a while writing in it, when your done, come back and we'll see what you have mde`
`11:07.58`	`doug_school`	`NEVER! only switching switching switches on a main frame!!!!!`
`11:08.45`	`Mayhem`	`guy I work with has a PDP-8 - it has about 20 toggle switches on the front and weighs heaps`
`11:08.59`	`doug_school`	`lol`
`11:10.28`	`Patlabor221`	`swet baby jesus it reads a map.`
`11:10.40`	`doug_school`	`yay`
`11:10.46`	`Patlabor221`	`sorta`
`11:10.50`	`doug_school`	`can it write maps?`
`11:11.01`	`Patlabor221`	`no clue`
`11:11.24`	`Patlabor221`	`crud puppys`
`11:11.37`	`Patlabor221`	`gotta rewrite the map reader now`
`11:11.38`	`doug_school`	`hm`
`11:11.43`	`Patlabor221`	`it's not dynaimc`
`11:11.44`	`doug_school`	`bummer`
`11:13.47`	`Patlabor221`	`there all done`
`11:15.00`	`doug_school`	`heh, fastest coder in the west`
`11:16.27`	`Patlabor221`	`welll I just has to delete a cubic assload of code`
`11:17.24`	`doug_school`	`ah`
`11:20.26`	`anaconda`	`doesn't need c# an interpreter like java?`
`11:22.59`	`Patlabor221`	`it has a runtime layer yes`
`11:23.14`	`Patlabor221`	`it can be compiled to be faster`
`11:23.33`	`anaconda`	`oh, i didn't know that, thx`
`11:23.54`	`Patlabor221`	`but it's not as fast as C`
`11:24.05`	`anaconda`	`and why not?`
`11:24.21`	`anaconda`	`if you can compile it...`
`11:24.54`	`Patlabor221`	`it dosn't compile down to machine code`
`11:25.01`	`Patlabor221`	`it compiles down to an optimese VM code`
`11:25.11`	`Patlabor221`	`its faster then interp`
`11:25.17`	`anaconda`	`intermediate language?`
`11:25.24`	`Patlabor221`	`but it sill has to go thu the runtime layer till it get to CPU insturctions`
`11:25.28`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah kinda`
`11:25.52`	`doug_school`	`can C# run without anything extra installed?`
`11:26.10`	`Patlabor221`	`what do you mean?`
`11:26.17`	`Patlabor221`	`like compiled into an EXE?`
`11:26.21`	`Cell`	`no i even canot extend the serialized classes, exception on deserialization of prviosly serialized files`
`11:26.22`	`doug_school`	`like with java you need the VM installed`
`11:26.30`	`doug_school`	`yea`
`11:26.33`	`anaconda`	`oh well... i stick with c;-)`
`11:26.45`	`Patlabor221`	`I think you need the .net libs`
`11:26.49`	`doug_school`	`oh`
`11:26.57`	`doug_school`	`thats dumb`
`11:27.03`	`doug_school`	`I like exes`
`11:27.07`	`Patlabor221`	`just like MFC apps need the MFC core compoments`
`11:27.21`	`doug_school`	`hm`
`11:27.32`	`Patlabor221`	`now, MFC has come standard with windows so it's not a big deal`
`11:27.37`	`Cell`	`doug_school: if u have xp u dont need anything to run c# exe files`
`11:27.39`	`doug_school`	`ah`
`11:27.44`	`doug_school`	`oh, ok`
`11:27.46`	`doug_school`	`slick`
`11:27.47`	`Patlabor221`	`.net libs will come with all future release XP and later`
`11:27.49`	`doug_school`	`sorta`
`11:27.50`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah XP has the libs`
`11:28.08`	`Patlabor221`	`and windows update will put them on ony older system it can`
`11:28.13`	`doug_school`	`k`
`11:28.45`	`Patlabor221`	`.net works a lot like MFC from a system standpoint`
`11:28.58`	`Patlabor221`	`but has more bindings`
`11:29.01`	`Cell`	`but its much more easy to use`
`11:29.10`	`Patlabor221`	`cell I was not talking about the API`
`11:29.16`	`Patlabor221`	`I menat how it works with the OS`
`11:29.24`	`Patlabor221`	`it's difrent the MFC`
`11:29.35`	`Patlabor221`	`may be easyer for some, harder for others.`
`11:29.43`	`Cell`	`it just needs aruntime like mfc`
`11:29.48`	`Patlabor221`	`yes`
`11:29.57`	`doug_school`	`k`
`11:30.28`	`Patlabor221`	`but the C# lang needs its own runtime too`
`11:30.33`	`doug_school`	`does bzflag use a runtime?`
`11:30.44`	`Patlabor221`	`it's C`
`11:30.44`	`anaconda`	`what are the difference between c++ and c# from the language standpoint?`
`11:30.55`	`doug_school`	`oh, right`
`11:30.56`	`Cell`	`or u could say it just needs a predefined set of provided services it can rely on`
`11:31.15`	`Patlabor221`	`C++ has more power and low leve controll, C# is newer and has more "high level" services`
`11:31.37`	`anaconda`	`that means...?`
`11:31.39`	`Cell`	`and is much easier to learn and programm`
`11:31.43`	`Patlabor221`	`like grbace lcean up, type safe and all that`
`11:32.05`	`Patlabor221`	`well it's easyer if you don't want to get to the metal :)`
`11:32.08`	`anaconda`	`so you don't have different types?`
`11:32.10`	`doug_school`	`what about assembler?`
`11:32.22`	`Cell`	`foreget it`
`11:32.32`	`doug_school`	`lol`
`11:32.32`	`Patlabor221`	`anaconda, it's got some, but it's more like java in that sense I think`
`11:32.56`	`anaconda`	`ah, thanks`
`11:33.09`	`Patlabor221`	`to me it seems like a language for lazy programers`
`11:33.09`	`Patlabor221`	`:)`
`11:33.17`	`anaconda`	`that's not good;-(`
`11:33.28`	`Patlabor221`	`and Cell is one of the lazyest programers I have seen :)`
`11:33.35`	`Cell`	`right`
`11:33.57`	`anaconda`	`are you working on bzflag, Patlabor221 and Cell?`
`11:34.08`	`doug_school`	`bzflagXL`
`11:34.10`	`Cell`	`me not`
`11:34.11`	`Patlabor221`	`even MS says it's not there lanuage for performacne critical stuff, they bill it as tehre "web application" language.`
`11:34.21`	`Patlabor221`	`I am working on the editor right now`
`11:34.28`	`Patlabor221`	`for BZFlag`
`11:34.45`	`anaconda`	`bzflag is mostly written in c++, right?`
`11:34.49`	`Cell`	`but how much percentage of apps needs hard core performance?`
`11:34.54`	`Patlabor221`	`it's all C and C++`
`11:34.56`	`anaconda`	`Cell: simulations`
`11:34.57`	`Cell`	`guess less than 90%`
`11:35.05`	`Cell`	`�h 10%`
`11:35.07`	`Patlabor221`	`cell more then you think,`
`11:35.20`	`Patlabor221`	`and all the ones I care about.`
`11:35.27`	`Cell`	`thats right`
`11:35.33`	`anaconda`	`microcontrollers...`
`11:35.46`	`Patlabor221`	`space shuttles!`
`11:35.56`	`doug_school`	`AI`
`11:36.04`	`anaconda`	`;-)`
`11:36.10`	`Patlabor221`	`beer machines!`
`11:36.19`	`Cell`	`lol`
`11:36.23`	`Patlabor221`	`god knows I hate lagy beer`
`11:36.38`	`Patlabor221`	`basicly anything that requires real time feedback`
`11:36.39`	`doug_school`	`indeed`
`11:36.44`	`doug_school`	`games`
`11:37.10`	`*** join/#bzflag MrCooper_ (~daenzer@ssda150.dialup-stud.ethz.ch)`
`11:37.52`	`doug_school`	`robots`
`11:38.17`	`doug_school`	`BOBOTS!!!`
`11:38.21`	`Patlabor221`	`I'm gonna have to say beer machines again`
`11:38.22`	`Cell`	`@weekend i will try to get the bzflag types into my editor`
`11:38.50`	`doug_school`	`Cell: cool`
`11:38.57`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: well, i'm happy that there still isn't a MS OS in beer machines;-)`
`11:39.09`	`Cell`	`i think it should be quite easy, but who knows`
`11:39.12`	`doug_school`	`BSOB`
`11:39.23`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: so performance isn't a problem there`
`11:39.31`	`anaconda`	`;-)`
`11:39.36`	`Patlabor221`	`see a C# beer machine sould be tied to .net`
`11:40.30`	`Patlabor221`	`and then it would be all slow`
`11:40.30`	`Patlabor221`	`and would have security holes`
`11:40.30`	`anaconda`	`yeah, exactely`
`11:40.30`	`Patlabor221`	`ohh that's another thing I don't like about c#/.net with all it's web stuf, it's got some nasty secutiry flaws.`
`11:40.41`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: like everything from the big company, no?`
`11:41.28`	`Patlabor221`	`no, not all of there stuff has issues`
`11:41.52`	`Patlabor221`	`just it seems there overly ambious IT app departements`
`11:42.05`	`Patlabor221`	`Direct play, it's prety good`
`11:42.14`	`Patlabor221`	`the MFC inet APIs`
`11:42.17`	`Patlabor221`	`prety good`
`11:42.42`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: actually i can't speak for MS, so i'm sorry;-)`
`11:42.57`	`*** part/#bzflag Mayhem (~Mayhem@stirling.mezzonet.net)`
`11:43.13`	`Patlabor221`	`it's funny how when you use a lot of there stuff, you see what teams are better then others there`
`11:43.53`	`Patlabor221`	`ususlay they just get screwed over in there macro languages`
`11:43.59`	`anaconda`	`really? i mean, are ther big differences?`
`11:44.01`	`Patlabor221`	`like VB, java, C#`
`11:44.07`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah`
`11:44.23`	`Patlabor221`	`they have a lot of difrent teams`
`11:44.23`	`anaconda`	`VB??`
`11:44.33`	`Patlabor221`	`the DX team is geting realy good`
`11:44.36`	`Patlabor221`	`Visual basic.`
`11:44.50`	`anaconda`	`yeah, but THEY use VB?`
`11:45.01`	`Patlabor221`	`it's one of there scripter langs`
`11:45.12`	`Patlabor221`	`I mean that they get security issues in them`
`11:45.27`	`Patlabor221`	`a number of office componentes are rather good.`
`11:45.33`	`anaconda`	`so that team isn't very good, then`
`11:45.44`	`anaconda`	`access?`
`11:45.52`	`Patlabor221`	`I don't know access that much`
`11:45.59`	`Patlabor221`	`I can make Excell sing tho`
`11:46.07`	`doug_school`	`lol`
`11:46.07`	`anaconda`	`;-)`
`11:46.14`	`Patlabor221`	`PS Project is realy cool`
`11:46.25`	`Patlabor221`	`well thought out and well implemented`
`11:46.42`	`anaconda`	`but that isn't a core office component, isn't it?`
`11:46.43`	`Patlabor221`	`but then you get stuff like outlook`
`11:46.58`	`Patlabor221`	`no it's not`
`11:47.10`	`Patlabor221`	`they have teams that do each thing`
`11:47.19`	`Patlabor221`	`full blown outlook, sucks balls`
`11:47.29`	`Patlabor221`	`outlook express is rather solid.`
`11:47.35`	`Patlabor221`	`made by difrent teams.`
`11:47.51`	`anaconda`	`dohh??? i get tons of virues because of buffer overflows in outlook e.`
`11:48.02`	`Patlabor221`	`what version of it?`
`11:48.20`	`Cell`	`sleep time`
`11:48.24`	`doug_school`	`cya`
`11:48.28`	`Cell`	`bye`
`11:48.38`	`anaconda`	`well, it's fixed, but people don't patch there systems....`
`11:48.39`	`Patlabor221`	`maybe I don't see that part of it, cus our mailserver has it's own virsus stuff, and I never use POP`
`11:48.44`	`anaconda`	`5.XXX`
`11:48.54`	`Patlabor221`	`ahhh`
`11:49.05`	`anaconda`	`imap, then`
`11:49.11`	`doug_school`	`get 7`
`11:49.23`	`Patlabor221`	`imap when I am remote, exchange when I am local`
`11:49.38`	`Patlabor221`	`Imap kicks major ass`
`11:49.54`	`Patlabor221`	`unless you are on a dialup`
`11:50.00`	`Patlabor221`	`then you have other issues anyway :)`
`11:50.03`	`anaconda`	`well, if you use more than one computer, imap is great`
`11:50.48`	`Patlabor221`	`don't use more then one computer?!?! I don't understand that :)`
`11:51.36`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: what are you working?`
`11:52.00`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: computer something?`
`11:52.03`	`Patlabor221`	`I am a developer`
`11:52.08`	`Patlabor221`	`have 2 jobs`
`11:52.13`	`Patlabor221`	`both making software.`
`11:52.15`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: where?`
`11:52.19`	`anaconda`	`SAP?`
`11:52.20`	`Patlabor221`	`CA`
`11:52.27`	`Patlabor221`	`sap?`
`11:52.38`	`Patlabor221`	`Here we make CAD/CAM software.`
`11:52.38`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: SAP/R3 ;-)`
`11:52.44`	`Patlabor221`	`I don't know what that is`
`11:52.54`	`anaconda`	`dohh, you know pro/engineer?`
`11:53.23`	`Patlabor221`	`how to use it no, but we do read there files.`
`11:53.43`	`anaconda`	`SAP: is a marketing software company, but i don't exactely`
`11:54.00`	`Patlabor221`	`marketing = EVIL`
`11:55.21`	`anaconda`	`;-)`
`11:55.23`	`anaconda`	`why?`
`11:55.39`	`Patlabor221`	`well at least here they are useless`
`11:55.44`	`Patlabor221`	`just suck up money`
`11:55.49`	`Patlabor221`	`make crap ads`
`11:55.56`	`doug_school`	`~lart marketing`
`11:55.56`	`Patlabor221`	`and have NO clue about what we make`
`11:56.02`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: so you do know a lot about 3d modelling. good for bzflag;-)`
`11:56.08`	`Patlabor221`	`to them it's all just buzworlds`
`11:56.18`	`Patlabor221`	`I've made some tank models`
`11:56.31`	`Patlabor221`	`and a class that will let bz read external models.`
`11:56.44`	`doug_school`	`oh?`
`11:56.46`	`anaconda`	`in 1.8?`
`11:56.48`	`Patlabor221`	`and the windows map editor.`
`11:56.53`	`doug_school`	`bzflag read what external mondels?`
`11:56.57`	`Patlabor221`	`1.9 is ded`
`11:57.02`	`Patlabor221`	`1.8 is dead`
`11:57.09`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: why?`
`11:57.11`	`Patlabor221`	`1.7 will be eveolved`
`11:57.24`	`Patlabor221`	`1.8 was in dissaray, too much changed at one time`
`11:57.27`	`Patlabor221`	`to hard to mannage`
`11:57.33`	`Patlabor221`	`1.8 will be retired`
`11:57.33`	`doug_school`	`how does your class load external models? is it in 1.7?`
`11:57.44`	`*** join/#bzflag metal_magic (xkolaja@viktoria.fi.muni.cz)`
`11:57.44`	`Patlabor221`	`it is not in bz proper yet.`
`11:57.48`	`doug_school`	`hm`
`11:57.51`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: but the code is useless, now???`
`11:57.51`	`doug_school`	`does it work?`
`11:58.03`	`metal_magic`	`any ducati admin here?`
`11:58.08`	`doug_school`	`do ye have a EXE I could try? I would like to make my self a neat model`
`11:58.09`	`Patlabor221`	`what code?`
`11:58.11`	`doug_school`	`metal_magic: nope`
`11:58.20`	`Patlabor221`	`doug exe for what?`
`11:58.30`	`metal_magic`	`ha, no more need :-)`
`11:58.36`	`doug_school`	`of that bzflag that loads external models?`
`11:58.36`	`anaconda`	`sorry;-) i mean all the work put in 1.8 so far...`
`11:58.38`	`metal_magic`	`cheater were there :-(`
`11:58.41`	`doug_school`	`or is it even in tthere`
`11:58.55`	`Patlabor221`	`doug_school: did you not read that I said it's not in bzflag proper yet`
`11:59.17`	`doug_school`	`oh`
`11:59.18`	`Patlabor221`	`the 1.8 code that is worht keeping will be moved peicewize into 1.7 line`
`11:59.24`	`doug_school`	`I thought you meant in CVS`
`11:59.33`	`Patlabor221`	`tho I don't know what will be kept`
`12:00.00`	`Patlabor221`	`the entire XML format for all thinks, was an ill conceved idea`
`12:00.21`	`Patlabor221`	`I can't put the model class in untill LGE is in and the new texture manager.`
`12:00.28`	`doug_school`	`ooooh`
`12:00.29`	`doug_school`	`ok`
`12:00.51`	`Patlabor221`	`and that means cap has to figure out why LGE keeps crashing on windows.`
`12:01.07`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: do you think there would be a way to put the collosion calcs on server side?`
`12:01.23`	`Patlabor221`	`the plan is to move as much serverside as posible`
`12:01.26`	`anaconda`	`would stop cheaters`
`12:01.32`	`Patlabor221`	`as one of the first things done.`
`12:01.37`	`Patlabor221`	`that's why they stoped 1.8`
`12:01.40`	`Patlabor221`	`it wasn't doing that`
`12:01.53`	`Patlabor221`	`this way they can just release a 1.7 line that has less cheating`
`12:02.04`	`anaconda`	`i see`
`12:02.06`	`Patlabor221`	`instead of waiting a year for all the other stuff in 1.8 to get done.`
`12:02.14`	`anaconda`	`that's good`
`12:02.24`	`metal_magic`	`but if u put more things to serverside, u will increase network traffic`
`12:02.33`	`Patlabor221`	`that's what needs to be tested`
`12:02.51`	`Patlabor221`	`there will proalby be still some client side prediction`
`12:02.56`	`anaconda`	`not too much more traffic, no?`
`12:02.59`	`Patlabor221`	`but the server will be athoritative`
`12:04.14`	`metal_magic`	`btw i am now playing bzflag on T3, i don't know how is to play bzflag on 128 kbit down, 96 kbit up`
`12:04.27`	`metal_magic`	`that is what i will have at home`
`12:04.39`	`metal_magic`	`do you know how good it is?`
`12:05.07`	`metal_magic`	`is it possible to play bzflag on such a link?`
`12:05.10`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: but you can't do it in an other way, if the source is open... i think at least`
`12:05.25`	`bzdoug`	`metal_magic: maybe`
`12:05.50`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah the server must be athorive`
`12:05.59`	`metal_magic`	`anaconda: i think even if the source would be closed`
`12:06.04`	`Patlabor221`	`at least in flag pickups, and deaths`
`12:06.13`	`bzdoug`	`yea`
`12:06.26`	`metal_magic`	`anaconda: reverse engineering would solve that :-)`
`12:06.33`	`*** join/#bzflag MrCooper__ (~daenzer@ssda121.dialup-stud.ethz.ch)`
`12:06.46`	`bzdoug`	`but that would make the server more cpu usage`
`12:06.49`	`Patlabor221`	`bz isn't closed`
`12:06.53`	`Patlabor221`	`and will never be`
`12:06.53`	`bzdoug`	`more than bzfs's 10% max`
`12:07.00`	`metal_magic`	`Patlabor221: i know`
`12:07.19`	`Patlabor221`	`but someone would have to hack the server to cheat then`
`12:07.27`	`Patlabor221`	`and that means runing thhere own server`
`12:07.38`	`Patlabor221`	`and if people know that it's a non standard server`
`12:07.47`	`Patlabor221`	`then they won't go there`
`12:08.24`	`bzdoug`	`problem solved`
`12:08.24`	`anaconda`	`metal_magic: reverse engineering is more difficult than changing a few lines of a source file`
`12:08.26`	`Patlabor221`	`then at least it's the users choice wether or not to play there, not somone ruining it for everyone on every server`
`12:08.26`	`Chestal`	`metal: 96kbit/s should be enough on all but the most crowded servers, latency is much more important`
`12:09.00`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah if you have a good dialup its playable`
`12:09.14`	`metal_magic`	`anaconda: yes, it is, of course, isn't it impossible :-)`
`12:09.27`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: i am playing only on ducati :-)`
`12:09.28`	`Patlabor221`	`why reverse engener when you have the source?`
`12:10.07`	`metal_magic`	`Patlabor221: i didn't mean bzflag, i meant it theoretically`
`12:10.12`	`Patlabor221`	`ahhhh`
`12:10.54`	`Patlabor221`	`well I don't think that moving stuff server side will make anymore trafic then there is now, now the client has to tell everyone what hapens nwpo`
`12:11.14`	`Patlabor221`	`now the client tells the server when someone is hit`
`12:11.25`	`Patlabor221`	`the server will jsut tell the client`
`12:11.26`	`Patlabor221`	`same data`
`12:11.36`	`Patlabor221`	`just difrent origin.`
`12:11.39`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: now i got an idea. i'll try to improve my latency for bzflag with HTB :-)`
`12:11.41`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: yes`
`12:11.53`	`Chestal`	`but it will put much more stresson the server of curse`
`12:12.00`	`Patlabor221`	`yes`
`12:12.00`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: but cpu usage on the server will increase`
`12:12.02`	`Patlabor221`	`more CPU time`
`12:12.18`	`metal_magic`	`i think it doesn't mind`
`12:12.40`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: what is the load on ducati?`
`12:12.46`	`Patlabor221`	`but still I think the gameplay calcs take up much time`
`12:12.53`	`anaconda`	`well, it will go linear with the nr of clients, i think... correct?`
`12:12.55`	`Patlabor221`	`it won't be drawing things`
`12:13.00`	`Chestal`	`metal_magic: what's HTB?`
`12:13.12`	`Chestal`	`metal: hmm, don't know, very low`
`12:13.38`	`anaconda`	`Patlabor221: no, but i think the collosion take some time to calculate, too....`
`12:13.38`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: well, it is OK, the load goes a bit up, no?`
`12:13.58`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: HTB is Hierarchical Token Buffer`
`12:14.19`	`metal_magic`	`Chestal: it is a queue discipline of QoS in Linux`
`12:14.20`	`Chestal`	`~bzfquery ducati.bzflag.org:5156`
`12:14.39`	`metal_magic`	`ah, my 3 teammates :-)`
`12:14.54`	`Chestal`	`ah, I should do some QoS myswelf here`
`12:15.24`	`metal_magic`	`it is a great thing, HTB is really`
`12:15.25`	`metal_magic`	`cool`
`12:15.25`	`Chestal`	`right now my ssh is barely usable`
`12:15.42`	`metal_magic`	`if i can recommend u, use HTB`
`12:15.47`	`metal_magic`	`CBQ is shit`
`12:16.10`	`metal_magic`	`it is written by czech :-)`
`12:16.15`	`metal_magic`	`martin devera`
`12:16.36`	`metal_magic`	`HTB is in 2.4.20-rc1 now`
`12:16.56`	`metal_magic`	`take a look at http://luxik.cdi.cz/~devik/qos/htb/`
`12:17.01`	`Chestal`	`I'm still using 2.4.12 here`
`12:17.22`	`Chestal`	`thanks, but I am too lazy to o that, didn't do anything with QoS yet`
`12:17.29`	`metal_magic`	`quite old kernel :-)`
`12:17.46`	`metal_magic`	`:-)`
`12:18.59`	`anaconda`	`ach, muss auch wieder einmal spielen;-)`
`12:19.10`	`metal_magic`	`:-)`
`12:20.45`	`Chestal`	`oh, I lied, it's 2.4.17, that other one waws in a remote shll`
`12:21.16`	`anaconda`	`Chestal: do you use a distro?`
`12:21.44`	`Chestal`	`debian`
`12:21.48`	`metal_magic`	`there is 2.4.18 in stable, isn't it?`
`12:22.13`	`Chestal`	`no idea, was never using Deban kernel sources`
`12:22.56`	`metal_magic`	`i am using debian kernel images :-)`
`12:23.27`	`anaconda`	`btw, is bzflag compiling on freebsd?`
`12:23.51`	`metal_magic`	`but now when i needed HTB i used 2.4.20-rc1 (vanilla) -- but compiled with make-kpkg :-)`
`12:23.58`	`metal_magic`	`debian is really cool :-)`
`12:29.08`	`anaconda`	`~bzfquery ducati.bzflag.org:5156`
`12:36.30`	`*** join/#bzflag [TeA\|]-[XP] (~Nicholas@ACB24F1C.ipt.aol.com)`
`12:38.10`	`anaconda`	`ok, bye bye everyone;-)`
`12:43.50`	`jzaun`	`ahh the joys of going back to school :-(`
`12:44.24`	`*** join/#bzflag Fanta (fantazee@p508F2D30.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`12:44.31`	`Fanta`	`any admin here ?`
`12:44.49`	`Fanta`	`chestal`
`12:44.53`	`Chestal`	`admin?`
`12:45.01`	`jzaun`	`Fanta: admin for wich server?`
`12:45.10`	`Fanta`	`ducati`
`12:45.30`	`jzaun`	`Fanta: not that I know of... but possibly`
`12:46.17`	`Fanta`	`spoogebob spermpans is back on ducati`
`12:50.18`	`Chestal`	`not anymore`
`12:58.19`	`bzdoug`	`hah`
`12:58.23`	`bzdoug`	`hmm`
`12:58.41`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: cant you sync your password to the BZCop system?`
`12:59.14`	`bzdoug`	`I am sure jzaun can make a scrypt that will run the server with the current password.. eh?`
`12:59.37`	`Chestal`	`I know virtualy nothing about the bzcop system, and I am not sure I want to sync with it actually`
`12:59.42`	`bzdoug`	`hmm`
`12:59.59`	`bzdoug`	`well, the password changes like everyweek`
`13:00.35`	`bzdoug`	`so all you need to do is fetch it and run your server`
`13:00.43`	`jzaun`	`If anyone wants to use it, the scripts are on the website`
`13:01.11`	`jzaun`	`look under the look under "Running A Server"`
`13:01.20`	`bzdoug`	`jzaun: cant the script be edited to only get the password, no maps, and run the server to Chestals settings?`
`13:01.29`	`bzdoug`	`would be simple`
`13:01.35`	`jzaun`	`yah... very`
`13:01.41`	`bzdoug`	`I will do it`
`13:01.53`	`jzaun`	`just pull down the password and ban list`
`13:02.01`	`jzaun`	`run your bzfs command however you would like`
`13:02.04`	`bzdoug`	`yea, ban list too`
`13:02.08`	`bzdoug`	`ok`
`13:02.26`	`bzdoug`	`exec bzfs blah blag then $psw? or whatever`
`13:02.27`	`Chestal`	`I am usin gno static bans on my server right now`
`13:02.44`	`Chestal`	`so for all of my bans have been for dynamic IPs anyway, so a static ban wouldn't have made sense`
`13:03.01`	`Chestal`	`how do you make sure who has access to the pw?`
`13:03.19`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: the bzcops do`
`13:03.24`	`jzaun`	`brb`
`13:03.40`	`bzdoug`	`anyone "could" figure out the password, but if that happens... banning..`
`13:03.41`	`bzdoug`	`:)`
`13:03.43`	`Chestal`	`ehm, well, the current pw must be broadcast to all bzcops, no?`
`13:03.51`	`bzdoug`	`its on the bzcop webpage`
`13:03.58`	`bzdoug`	`only avalible to bzcops`
`13:04.05`	`bzdoug`	`soooo I could make you a bzcop`
`13:04.06`	`bzdoug`	`:)`
`13:04.16`	`Chestal`	`what do you do when there's a bad bzcop?`
`13:04.17`	`bzdoug`	`you have an account on stats.bzflag.org?`
`13:04.25`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: debzcop him`
`13:04.30`	`bzdoug`	`remove bzcop`
`13:04.32`	`bzdoug`	`simple`
`13:04.42`	`bzdoug`	`and change the pass`
`13:04.51`	`Chestal`	`ehm, than I do not understand the system`
`13:05.31`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: whats your current startup settings for ducati?`
`13:05.38`	`Chestal`	`I don't see where you make sure, that only bzcops get the serevr pw`
`13:05.50`	`bzdoug`	`we dont...`
`13:06.06`	`bzdoug`	`there is an easy way to get the pass, run your own server, and PRESTO! password`
`13:06.18`	`Chestal`	`I don#t know, I run 2 (3) server on ducati and am currently changign setting sfrom time to time because I experment with CVS bzfs code`
`13:06.21`	`bzdoug`	`but if the person does that, we can do a global ban on him`
`13:06.35`	`*** join/#bzflag bzlynx (Lynx@62.4.222.74)`
`13:06.46`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: ok, all you need to do is edit the perl code to run another settings`
`13:06.49`	`Chestal`	`hmm, but that person coudl still acquire the new PW and log on from a different IP`
`13:07.01`	`bzdoug`	`indeed`
`13:07.13`	`Chestal`	`I think I'll wait until we get authentication into bzflag`
`13:07.19`	`bzdoug`	`bah`
`13:07.22`	`bzdoug`	`;)`
`13:07.40`	`Chestal`	`then I can give admin access to whom I want to have it`
`13:07.46`	`bzdoug`	`hrm`
`13:08.18`	`bzdoug`	`but then most people dont have admin rights on ducati and I have seen no problem so far with stolen passwords`
`13:09.17`	`bzdoug`	`Chestal: let me have your bzfs settings`
`13:09.22`	`Chestal`	`I a quite sure there are a couple of peopel who are admin on ducati and are not a bzcop righ tnow`
`13:09.57`	`bzdoug`	`not in here`
`13:10.03`	`bzdoug`	`heh`
`13:10.28`	`Chestal`	`bzdoug: thanks for your efforts, bu tI will not use it anywa, besided , my connectin is very slow at the moment , so it's hard for me to grab the settings`
`13:10.34`	`Chestal`	`I wonder why it's so slow, though`
`13:11.53`	`bzdoug`	`hm`
`13:12.04`	`Patlabor221`	`offfta, tummy full`
`13:12.11`	`bzdoug`	`how do I get a CTF and random map?`
`13:12.26`	`Patlabor221`	`ctf is -c I think`
`13:12.30`	`bzdoug`	`k`
`13:12.40`	`bzdoug`	`and random..`
`13:12.40`	`Patlabor221`	`I think also -fb`
`13:12.44`	`bzdoug`	`k`
`13:12.49`	`Patlabor221`	`dosn't specify a world`
`13:12.53`	`Patlabor221`	`that will allways be random`
`13:12.55`	`bzdoug`	`k`
`13:13.10`	`Chestal`	`-cr`
`13:13.17`	`Patlabor221`	`-h will give you random building heights`
`13:13.31`	`bzdoug`	`k`
`13:13.33`	`Chestal`	`-c will give you a regular world`
`13:13.33`	`bzdoug`	`-cr?`
`13:13.36`	`bzdoug`	`ah`
`13:14.01`	`bzdoug`	`bzfs -c -cr -synctime -public ducati.bzflag.org:5156 -admsg DUCATI_CTF!`
`13:14.04`	`bzdoug`	`is that ok?`
`13:14.50`	`bzdoug`	`lol`
`13:15.26`	`Chestal`	`bzdoug: it has probably liek 10 more options`
`13:15.34`	`bzdoug`	`oh?`
`13:15.35`	`Chestal`	`and no synctime`
`13:15.37`	`bzdoug`	`k`
`13:16.43`	`bzdoug`	`oops, broke`
`13:18.06`	`bzdoug`	`I blew it up`
`13:21.22`	`*** join/#bzflag anaconda (~na@adsl-212-41-71-134.solnet.ch)`
`13:23.35`	`bzdoug`	`jzaun: you there?`
`13:24.20`	`jzaun`	`sry`
`13:24.21`	`jzaun`	`yah`
`13:24.34`	`bzdoug`	`DCCing modded perl prggy`
`13:24.49`	`*** join/#bzflag strayer (~s-t-r-a-y@pD9529599.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`13:24.53`	`jzaun`	`you can try... but DCC don't work for me....`
`13:24.58`	`bzdoug`	`oh`
`13:25.11`	`bzdoug`	`ok then`
`13:25.18`	`strayer`	`hi :)`
`13:25.21`	`*** join/#bzflag jzaun_ (~jzaun@jzaun.static.telerama.com)`
`13:25.24`	`jzaun_`	`DCC it here`
`13:25.25`	`bzdoug`	`heckaman.bzflag.org`
`13:25.27`	`bzdoug`	`oh`
`13:25.39`	`bzdoug`	`going`
`13:25.59`	`bzdoug`	`grr`
`13:26.01`	`bzdoug`	`my firewall`
`13:26.04`	`jzaun`	`yup`
`13:26.12`	`bzdoug`	`get it through my server`
`13:26.16`	`bzdoug`	`and test it`
`13:26.21`	`bzdoug`	`dont work for me`
`13:26.27`	`bzdoug`	`but it never did`
`13:27.21`	`jzaun`	`bzdoug: addr?`
`13:27.33`	`bzdoug`	`http://heckaman.bzflag.org`
`13:28.09`	`jzaun`	`file?`
`13:28.26`	`bzdoug`	`tmp.bzf.launch`
`13:28.48`	`jzaun`	`what the rest of it?`
`13:28.57`	`bzdoug`	`?`
`13:29.04`	`jzaun`	`all the other files :-)`
`13:29.09`	`bzdoug`	`thats it`
`13:29.15`	`bzdoug`	`the perl script`
`13:29.27`	`jzaun`	`whats all the rest of the files? anything interesting?`
`13:29.34`	`bzdoug`	`ooh`
`13:29.36`	`bzdoug`	`no`
`13:29.37`	`bzdoug`	`:P`
`13:29.59`	`bzdoug`	`IBM Working on Brain-Rivaling Computer`
`13:30.03`	`bzdoug`	`uh huh`
`13:30.08`	`bzdoug`	`whos brain?`
`13:30.11`	`bzdoug`	`sussudios?`
`13:30.32`	`bzdoug`	`does that perl proggy run for you?`
`13:31.58`	`*** join/#bzflag Cell (alton@pD9E50E5F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`13:32.13`	`bzdoug`	`bed huh?`
`13:32.24`	`Cell`	`yea, but cant sleep`
`13:32.29`	`bzdoug`	`ah`
`13:32.46`	`Cell`	`have to many good ideas`
`13:32.53`	`bzdoug`	`heh`
`13:33.14`	`Cell`	`concerning my tooth editing`
`13:33.23`	`bzdoug`	`ah`
`13:33.25`	`jzaun`	`bzdoug: what do you want to do? run a randomly generated map with BZCop password/ban?`
`13:33.34`	`bzdoug`	`jzaun: yes`
`13:34.08`	`bzdoug`	`or better yet, have it run JUST like a bzfs, only it passes everthing through, only adding the password anf ban list`
`13:34.26`	`bzdoug`	`so: perl bzscript <server settings>`
`13:34.44`	`bzdoug`	`and it would fetch ban/pass and run the server with the rest of the script`
`13:34.54`	`bzdoug`	`but thats beyond me`
`13:35.02`	`Patlabor221`	`jzaun: you got a fix for the bad download name when you save a map yet?`
`13:35.22`	`Cell`	`u can now write in perl for dotnet`
`13:35.31`	`Cell`	`i installed it`
`13:35.35`	`bzdoug`	`dotnet?`
`13:35.46`	`Patlabor221`	`.net`
`13:35.46`	`Cell`	`.net`
`13:36.01`	`bzdoug`	`ah`
`13:36.05`	`Cell`	`using perl syntax`
`13:38.35`	`Cell`	`captain_proton: i recommend u to install FXCop so u get sure u are always conform with the .NET Framework Design Guidelines.`
`13:38.42`	`Cell`	`lol`
`13:39.37`	`Cell`	`<PROTECTED>`
`13:40.28`	`Cell`	`i have to change ssome things in my source`
`13:46.13`	`*** join/#bzflag ibot (ibot@rikers.org)`
`13:46.13`	`*** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org 1.7e6 (Armoured Smashing Fist 2002) \|\| rank: http://happypenguin.org/show?BZFlag \|\| http://stats.bzflag.org/ \|\| bzedit 2.1! http://jupiter.babylonia.flatirons.org/older/code/tarballs/ \|\| http://www.chesco.com/~dbrosius/BZFlag/BZFlag.html \|\| 1.7 will become HEAD, 1.8 to be retired`
`13:46.14`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot ] by ChanServ`
`13:46.22`	`Chestal`	`one software developer I know has tested the feasibility of .NET platform for a big application includign GUI`
`13:46.33`	`Chestal`	`hsi results are: not really usable as of yet`
`13:46.52`	`Patlabor221`	`it hasn't been well received.`
`13:47.10`	`Chestal`	`and he isn't reluctant to use M$ technology, the current version of the softawre uses COM`
`13:47.40`	`Patlabor221`	`has anyone even tried to take c# to another platform?`
`13:48.05`	`Chestal`	`the Unix implementation of .net includes a c# compiler AFAIK`
`13:48.18`	`Patlabor221`	`that's nice`
`13:48.29`	`Patlabor221`	`who made it?`
`13:48.37`	`Chestal`	`but the GUI is based on tcl/k cough`
`13:48.40`	`Chestal`	`tcl/tk even`
`13:48.46`	`Chestal`	`M$ made it`
`13:48.54`	`Chestal`	`runs on FreeBSD`
`13:49.06`	`Patlabor221`	`proalby them just trying to say it's "open"`
`13:49.13`	`Chestal`	`yes :-)`
`13:49.47`	`Chestal`	`withotu havign any first hand knowledge I'd say it needs some time to get more mature, than it will work as well (or not ) as Java`
`13:49.52`	`Chestal`	`it seems to have some advantages, though`
`13:50.30`	`Chestal`	`there even is Eifefl for .net, that's quite sweet`
`13:51.01`	`Patlabor221`	`it's got the advantages of being designed after something like java, so they could see what people used and didn't use.`
`13:51.22`	`Chestal`	`but c# looks boring`
`13:51.44`	`Cell`	`u tried it?`
`13:52.01`	`Chestal`	`no, I only read about it`
`13:52.08`	`Cell`	`see`
`13:52.08`	`Chestal`	`seem to be a c++/java/delphi bastard`
`13:52.28`	`Chestal`	`as borign as Java as a language`
`13:52.51`	`Cell`	`why is Java boring?`
`13:53.18`	`Chestal`	`because there is nothing new or modern in it`
`13:53.34`	`Cell`	`not`
`13:53.37`	`Chestal`	`it took some old conecepts from other languages, dumped everythign that made the language complex`
`13:54.06`	`Chestal`	`does anyone of you rememer SOM/DSOM?`
`13:55.18`	`Chestal`	`did anyone ever use a language with multimethod support? I wonder if that is a thign I would like to use`
`13:55.19`	`Cell`	`im quite happy about not dealing with delete and pointers any more`
`13:55.35`	`Chestal`	`nowadays, you rarely need new and delete in C++`
`13:55.49`	`Cell`	`cause u use stl`
`13:55.52`	`Patlabor221`	`not with STL and classes`
`13:55.58`	`Patlabor221`	`what is wrong with STL?`
`13:56.04`	`Cell`	`its great`
`13:56.16`	`Chestal`	`and I am still not convinced that GC is workign that well in practice, at least not for languages like Java or C#`
`13:56.40`	`Cell`	`its like smart pointers in c++`
`13:56.40`	`Chestal`	`occaml seems to be a good language, too, wins every benchmark contest`
`13:56.45`	`Cell`	`it works well`
`13:56.57`	`Chestal`	`it increases the memory foorprint fo the application by a fair amount`
`13:57.08`	`Chestal`	`and can cause significant delays`
`13:57.32`	`Chestal`	`I forgot, does C# have stack allocation?`
`13:57.53`	`Cell`	`?`
`13:58.01`	`Chestal`	`for Java, all objects are on the heap`
`13:58.08`	`Cell`	`yes`
`13:58.14`	`Cell`	`for c# not`
`13:58.15`	`Chestal`	`it's a gc heap, so it's pretty fast, but still very slow when compared to a stack`
`13:58.26`	`Cell`	`struct is pushed on stack`
`13:58.39`	`Cell`	`class on heap`
`13:58.40`	`Chestal`	`what's a c# struct?`
`13:58.45`	`Chestal`	`when compared to a class?`
`13:58.49`	`Cell`	`same as c++ struct`
`13:58.59`	`Cell`	`a vaLUE TYPE; PASED BY VALUE`
`13:59.02`	`Chestal`	`in c++, structs and classes are identical`
`13:59.10`	`Cell`	`yes`
`13:59.11`	`Chestal`	`only differ in default access privileges`
`13:59.32`	`Cell`	`in c# structs are more restricted`
`13:59.43`	`Cell`	`compared to classes`
`14:00.12`	`Chestal`	`hmm, ok, so it basicaclyl is the same as java, with the excdeption that you have somethign which s in the niddle between basic daata types and real classes`
`14:00.29`	`Cell`	`yes`
`14:00.59`	`*** join/#bzflag Doughecka (~blah@adsl-39-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`14:01.02`	`Cell`	`but u can box value types(like structs) to the heap`
`14:01.11`	`Cell`	`so they get a reference type`
`14:01.31`	`Cell`	`like a class`
`14:02.17`	`Chestal`	`c# uses the finally paradigm for cleanup? or is there something which is closer to c++ destructors?`
`14:02.39`	`Cell`	`MyClass myClass; // there is no instance of Myclass created in this line`
`14:03.04`	`Chestal`	`hmm, so I have to know whether it's a class or struct type to know whether it has value or reference semantics?`
`14:03.07`	`Cell`	`yes there i a Dispose method`
`14:03.18`	`Cell`	`right`
`14:03.19`	`Chestal`	`whcih gets called when?`
`14:03.45`	`Cell`	`Dispose is called first`
`14:03.53`	`Cell`	`before garbage`
`14:04.17`	`Cell`	`collector frees the heap`
`14:04.45`	`Chestal`	`ok, that's just liek javaas finalize methods? gets called before objects gets gc'ed, but you never know when`
`14:04.55`	`Cell`	`right`
`14:05.02`	`Cell`	`mostly u dont need it`
`14:05.02`	`Chestal`	`you'd still need manual cleanup code in a method which creats such an object now and then`
`14:05.33`	`Cell`	`?`
`14:05.46`	`Chestal`	`liek in Java: try catch finally`
`14:06.07`	`Chestal`	`wheer the code in finally will likely be duplicated in sevral methods`
`14:06.30`	`Cell`	`yes cause its ensured to be executed`
`14:06.53`	`Chestal`	`prolem is, that in the finally clause there will often be code which logically would belong to a diffeernt class`
`14:07.01`	`Chestal`	`in C++ you woudl put that code in the destructor`
`14:07.33`	`Chestal`	`the C++ approach has its downsides, too, but I still find it superioir`
`14:07.49`	`Cell`	`i duno about this currently, sorry`
`14:08.19`	`Chestal`	`no multiple inheritance I guess, but soemthign like Java's interfaces?`
`14:08.30`	`Cell`	`yep`
`14:08.54`	`Cell`	`i dont thing multiple inheritance is a good thing`
`14:09.05`	`Chestal`	`it's sometimes very useful`
`14:09.28`	`Chestal`	`it ccan make a language more complex, though`
`14:10.02`	`Cell`	`yes, and c# tries to simplify programming, by not allowing many things u could do in c++`
`14:10.07`	`Chestal`	`but when cleverly used, it's a very good exampel of code reuse`
`14:11.04`	`Cell`	`if(a = 3) /not possible`
`14:11.21`	`Chestal`	`so, a=b isn't an expression in c#?`
`14:11.22`	`Cell`	`cause this leads to damn errors`
`14:11.28`	`Chestal`	`I always liked that part in c++`
`14:11.36`	`Chestal`	`or it is an expression returnign void?`
`14:11.54`	`Chestal`	`for the last 20 years or so, evry decent compiler issued a warnign on that construct`
`14:12.10`	`Patlabor221`	`I liked a=3 == -1 :)`
`14:12.14`	`Cell`	`no the expression does not evaluete to type bool, so it gives u an error if used in an if statement`
`14:12.19`	`Patlabor221`	`or a=b == -1`
`14:12.20`	`Patlabor221`	`like that`
`14:12.34`	`captain_proton`	`grumble`
`14:12.48`	`captain_proton`	`why is it getting the display wrong?`
`14:13.04`	`Patlabor221`	`why is it crashing on windows?`
`14:13.06`	`Chestal`	`Cell: ah, so there's no automatic conversion from, say, integer to bool?`
`14:13.16`	`Cell`	`yep`
`14:13.18`	`Chestal`	`but if you had: bool a,b; if (a=b= woudl work?`
`14:13.38`	`Cell`	`yes`
`14:13.57`	`Chestal`	`which s the same trap after all, only not so common`
`14:14.07`	`Cell`	`nobody does that`
`14:14.18`	`Chestal`	`but I agree that it's a good idea to dump this automatic conversion, C++ couldn't do it for several reasons`
`14:14.24`	`Patlabor221`	`you don't do that, that's not everyone.`
`14:14.40`	`Chestal`	`Cell: hmm, that#s exactly the point, it#s a typo just liek your example`
`14:14.49`	`Chestal`	`it wil not behave correctly, though`
`14:15.10`	`Cell`	`what?`
`14:15.41`	`Chestal`	`your point was that if (a=b) will not give an error in C++, I suppose the programemr wanted to do ==, but made an error`
`14:15.53`	`Cell`	`yes`
`14:16.02`	`Cell`	`thats why c# does not allow it`
`14:16.04`	`Chestal`	`well, in C# this problem only shows, when a and b are bools`
`14:16.13`	`Chestal`	`then it's exactly the same problem`
`14:16.29`	`Patlabor221`	`I get a warning in VC when I do that a=b in an iff.`
`14:16.30`	`Chestal`	`comparing bools is not as frequent as comparing integers maybe, but it is done`
`14:16.51`	`Cell`	`maybe i was wrong i try it`
`14:17.11`	`Chestal`	`so, that's relly not an argument. Still, dumping the auto conversion is a good thing, simply because it increases type safety`
`14:17.44`	`Patlabor221`	`lets you do less tricky stuff tho :)`
`14:18.01`	`Chestal`	`well, all you need is an additonal !=0`
`14:18.08`	`Cell`	`if( a=true)`
`14:18.08`	`Cell`	`a = false;`
`14:18.11`	`Cell`	`is allowed`
`14:18.17`	`Chestal`	`c++ would have doen that if it wouldn't have broken old code`
`14:19.02`	`Cell`	`bool b = false;`
`14:19.02`	`Cell`	`if( a=b)`
`14:19.08`	`Cell`	`is allowed`
`14:19.17`	`Chestal`	`that makes sense`
`14:19.19`	`Cell`	`bool b;`
`14:19.19`	`Cell`	`if( a=b)`
`14:19.23`	`Cell`	`is not allowed`
`14:19.50`	`Cell`	`cause b is anassigend`
`14:20.31`	`Cell`	`C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\Visual Studio Projects\itLion\RectRegion.cs(83): Use of unassigned local variable 'b'`
`14:20.38`	`Cell`	`ups sorry`
`14:20.54`	`Chestal`	`hmm, what does it say to: bool a=cleverfunction(); bool b; if (a) b=true; else b=false; a=b;`
`14:22.08`	`Cell`	`is allowed`
`14:22.17`	`Chestal`	`oh, so it is clever`
`14:22.30`	`Chestal`	`but it cannot always see whetehr each execution path leads to an init.`
`14:22.42`	`Cell`	`why not`
`14:22.46`	`Chestal`	`my trusty C++ compiler would issue a warning in that case which I could ignore`
`14:23.02`	`Chestal`	`it's not necessarily as obvious that b gets assigned`
`14:23.33`	`Cell`	`why not`
`14:23.49`	`Chestal`	`Cell: because it might require knowledge about yur whole program`
`14:24.21`	`Cell`	`k, misunderstood`
`14:25.06`	`Chestal`	`you coudl argue, of course, that it's always good to play defensive and give an initial value`
`14:25.13`	`*** part/#bzflag jzaun (~jzaun@jzaun.static.telerama.com)`
`14:26.01`	`Cell`	`u can make a bitfield enumeration, i think that cannot be done in c++`
`14:27.06`	`Chestal`	`hmm, c++ doe have bitfields and enumerations`
`14:27.15`	`Chestal`	`those don't mix, though, maybe it's just different terms?`
`14:27.41`	`Chestal`	`didn#t use bitfields for ages, though`
`14:28.38`	`Cell`	`ok thats not that spectacular any way`
`14:30.42`	`Cell`	`but u can acssecc private members like this: class A{ private int b; void f(A a){this.b = a.b}}`
`14:30.47`	`Cell`	`pretty useful`
`14:31.57`	`Chestal`	`thats the same as in C++ and Java, isn't it?`
`14:32.12`	`Cell`	`i dont thing u can do that in c++`
`14:33.17`	`Chestal`	`you cn`
`14:33.21`	`Cell`	`k`
`14:33.25`	`Cell`	`then im wrong`
`14:33.50`	`Chestal`	`which access levels does it have? private, public, and?`
`14:35.00`	`Cell`	`protected, internal and selaed`
`14:35.04`	`Cell`	`sealed`
`14:35.20`	`Chestal`	`hmm`
`14:35.52`	`Cell`	`internal members can only be used in the same package/namespace they belong to`
`14:36.31`	`Cell`	`a sealed class cannot be inherited`
`14:36.34`	`Chestal`	`I think that's the same as the default mode for Java`
`14:36.51`	`Chestal`	`is protected nly for derived classes or for classes in same package, too?`
`14:37.16`	`Cell`	`only for derived`
`14:37.40`	`Cell`	`hmm, i think no`
`14:37.43`	`Chestal`	`that#s good, I think in Java it's both`
`14:38.17`	`Chestal`	`hmm, no working Java here, javac just segfaults`
`14:38.32`	`Cell`	`but protected members shoul be avoided the design quide3line says`
`14:38.53`	`Chestal`	`so make them public ;-)`
`14:39.09`	`Cell`	`no use a public get/set method or property`
`14:39.25`	`Chestal`	`sometimes, I find protected to be useful`
`14:39.52`	`Cell`	`no use a 'protected' get/set method or property`
`14:40.11`	`Cell`	`and make the field private`
`14:40.17`	`Chestal`	`ah, so just no protected data memebrs`
`14:40.22`	`Cell`	`right`
`14:40.31`	`Chestal`	`ok, I could live with that`
`14:41.18`	`Cell`	`because the inheritor should not have access to bas class members if ( they are priv or protected) only via protected methods`
`14:41.28`	`Cell`	`bas/base`
`14:42.47`	`Cell`	`cause it gives the base class mor independence, and changes are easear done to the base class without making inherited classes dont work any more with the new base`
`14:43.21`	`captain_proton`	`if there are protected data members they should be available to the inheritor`
`14:43.27`	`captain_proton`	`if you want to hide them, use private`
`14:44.13`	`Cell`	`hmm u are right`
`14:44.42`	`Cell`	`but the c# guideline recommedes not to use protected members`
`14:46.26`	`Cell`	`nevertheless it u can get easier into trouble if u use protected members`
`14:47.02`	`Cell`	`and the inheritor does not know ur base calss implementation`
`14:48.54`	`captain_proton`	`it all depends on the design`
`14:49.13`	`captain_proton`	`you can require inheritors to know about the protected members if you want`
`14:49.43`	`Cell`	`how that`
`14:51.50`	`BZFlag`	`~1+1`
`14:51.50`		`methinks 1+1 is 3 for large values of 1`
`14:52.24`	`Chestal`	`hmm, but ~1+1 is 0, no?`
`14:53.27`	`*** join/#bzflag Doughecka (~blah@adsl-39-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`14:54.38`	`Chestal`	`Cell: coudl you try and translate http://www.home.unix-ag.org/thilo/t/helo.java or helo.cc into c# and say what it prints?`
`14:55.41`	`Doughecka`	`grr`
`14:56.35`	`Chestal`	`ah, no, it's -1 of course`
`14:56.49`	`Doughecka`	`jzaun left`
`14:56.51`	`Doughecka`	`~seen jzaun`
`14:56.51`		`jzaun <~jzaun@jzaun.static.telerama.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 1h 23m 26s ago, saying: 'bzdoug: what do you want to do? run a randomly generated map with BZCop password/ban?'.`
`15:02.16`	`Cell`	`Chestal:It only writes 'A'`
`15:02.50`	`Cell`	`class A`
`15:02.51`	`Cell`	`{`
`15:02.51`	`Cell`	`public void f() {f_internal();}`
`15:02.51`	`Cell`	`private void f_internal() {Console.WriteLine("A");}`
`15:02.51`	`Cell`	`}`
`15:02.51`	`Cell`	`class B : A`
`15:02.53`	`Cell`	`{`
`15:02.55`	`Cell`	`private void f_internal() {Console.WriteLine("B");}`
`15:02.57`	`Cell`	`}`
`15:02.59`	`Cell`	`public class helo`
`15:03.01`	`Cell`	`{`
`15:03.03`	`Cell`	`public static void Main(string[] args)`
`15:03.05`	`Cell`	`{`
`15:03.07`	`Cell`	`A b = new B();`
`15:03.09`	`Cell`	`b.f();`
`15:03.11`	`Cell`	`}`
`15:03.12`	`Doughecka`	`bloated`
`15:03.13`	`Cell`	`}`
`15:03.13`	`Chestal`	`hmm`
`15:03.15`	`Cell`	`shit sorry`
`15:03.40`	`Chestal`	`Cell: can you use 'sealed' or whatever to stop someone from using polymorphism for f() ?`
`15:04.13`	`Chestal`	`so, for private methods, C# (as Java) uses early binding?`
`15:04.23`	`Chestal`	`C++ would print 'B'`
`15:04.27`	`Cell`	`for public too`
`15:04.53`	`Chestal`	`eh? it woudl normalel use late binding aka polymorphism, no?`
`15:05.01`	`Cell`	`no`
`15:05.19`	`Chestal`	`but you can enable it?`
`15:05.21`	`Cell`	`only if u make the method virtual`
`15:05.39`	`Chestal`	`ok, make f_internal virtual then, because in Java, all methods are virtual`
`15:05.50`	`Cell`	`ah ,k`
`15:07.33`	`Cell`	`does not work , virtual functions canot be private`
`15:07.58`	`Chestal`	`uh`
`15:08.15`	`Chestal`	`so, you'd woudl ahve to open them at least for the package`
`15:08.26`	`Cell`	`yes`
`15:08.53`	`Cell`	`<PROTECTED>`
`15:09.13`	`Chestal`	`actualyl, it does, it is a common C++ paradigm , it can be used to enforce pre- and postconditins`
`15:09.21`	`Chestal`	`you make all virtual functions private`
`15:09.37`	`Chestal`	`and write a public wrapper fucntion in the base class which enforces the constraints`
`15:10.10`	`Cell`	`dont underatand that, sorry`
`15:10.42`	`Chestal`	`so, you would have public: void f() {if (!precond()) throw exc(); f_inernal(); if (!postcond()) throw exc();}`
`15:11.09`	`Chestal`	`this way, a base class can enforce constraitns about the inner state of the class which must hold true at all times`
`15:11.31`	`Cell`	`k undesstan`
`15:11.47`	`Cell`	`but is there not a work around`
`15:12.05`	`Chestal`	`well, you can open the internal function, the next best thign would be internal I guess`
`15:12.19`	`Chestal`	`then you woudl just have to make sure, that no other class in side the package would call the internal functin`
`15:14.03`	`Cell`	`i thing this can be soved by using two classes`
`15:14.17`	`Chestal`	`I don't thnk it really can`
`15:14.25`	`Patlabor221`	`actualy its interface in general.`
`15:14.29`	`Doughecka`	`Patlabor221: where?`
`15:14.48`	`Chestal`	`cell: are there friends in C#?`
`15:14.53`	`Cell`	`no`
`15:15.03`	`Patlabor221`	`ftp.gibbscam.com/pub/outgoing/vizkit/bze-1.5.9a1.zip`
`15:15.39`	`Patlabor221`	`all whoping 193 k of it.`
`15:15.51`	`Doughecka`	`heh`
`15:15.53`	`Patlabor221`	`I know a bunch of stuff still dosn't work right`
`15:15.57`	`Chestal`	`any objectiosn against adding setvbuf(stdout, (char *)NULL, _IOLBF, 0); (same for stderr) to the beginning of bzfs?`
`15:16.09`	`Chestal`	`this would make logging much easier`
`15:16.18`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`15:16.44`	`Doughecka`	`looks good`
`15:16.54`	`Patlabor221`	`play with it more`
`15:17.12`	`Patlabor221`	`the new link interface is in there too`
`15:17.16`	`Doughecka`	`how do I add stuf?`
`15:17.21`	`Patlabor221`	`even tho it won't draw them for some reason`
`15:17.23`	`Patlabor221`	`the add button`
`15:17.27`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`15:17.37`	`Patlabor221`	`I need to put the toolbar buttons back in`
`15:17.45`	`Doughecka`	`add button?`
`15:17.52`	`Patlabor221`	`actualy they will proabalby get there own toolbar`
`15:17.54`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah`
`15:17.56`	`Doughecka`	`oh`
`15:17.58`	`Patlabor221`	`says "add"`
`15:17.59`	`Doughecka`	`its disabled`
`15:18.01`	`*** join/#bzflag jp_school (~jpablo@dsl-200-67-6-1.prodigy.net.mx)`
`15:18.05`	`Doughecka`	`aha`
`15:18.06`	`Patlabor221`	`pick a type first`
`15:18.07`	`Doughecka`	`I Se`
`15:19.49`	`Doughecka`	`looks slick`
`15:19.50`	`Cell`	`Patlabor221:why dont u make toolotips for the buttons, so i could new faster what they mean`
`15:19.52`	`Doughecka`	`very slick`
`15:20.09`	`Patlabor221`	`cell I am in the middle of changing the interface`
`15:20.23`	`Patlabor221`	`when I have it nailed down I will be adding TT's and status bar items to them all`
`15:20.35`	`Cell`	`k, sorry`
`15:20.41`	`Doughecka`	`hmm, I like it`
`15:20.54`	`Patlabor221`	`I don't like some of the stuff in the toolbar right now`
`15:21.01`	`captain_proton`	`Patlabor221: screenshot it?`
`15:21.04`	`Patlabor221`	`I am thinking of breaking it up`
`15:21.24`	`Patlabor221`	`cap, 1 sec`
`15:21.31`	`Patlabor221`	`rebuilding debug now`
`15:21.49`	`Chestal`	`nayne who objects to force bzfs into line buffering shall speak now or be silent forever`
`15:21.49`	`Cell`	`nothing working?`
`15:21.50`	`Doughecka`	`why does the teleport still have X as .125?`
`15:21.52`	`Patlabor221`	`I think I will make a "mode" toolbar, a "view" toolbar`
`15:22.01`	`Patlabor221`	`that's just the default`
`15:22.02`	`Doughecka`	`Chestal: ?`
`15:22.03`	`captain_proton`	`Chestal: line buffering?`
`15:22.05`	`Patlabor221`	`I picked one`
`15:22.12`	`Chestal`	`captain_proton: yes, for stdout and stderr`
`15:22.14`	`Doughecka`	`Patlabor221: I allways set it to 9`
`15:22.15`	`Doughecka`	`er`
`15:22.16`	`Doughecka`	`0`
`15:22.25`	`Patlabor221`	`it can be non zero`
`15:22.28`	`Doughecka`	`oh?`
`15:22.29`	`Patlabor221`	`just less then border.`
`15:22.32`	`Doughecka`	`ah`
`15:22.32`	`Chestal`	`proton: so when you redirect the outtu to a file, each line gets written immediately`
`15:22.34`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`15:22.50`	`Chestal`	`or when you pipe it`
`15:22.52`	`Patlabor221`	`it's how far the field pannels stick out from the center of the porter`
`15:23.03`	`Doughecka`	`hmm, but its buggy`
`15:23.06`	`Doughecka`	`bzflag hates it`
`15:23.21`	`captain_proton`	`Chestal: works for me`
`15:23.40`	`Patlabor221`	`Doughecka: as long as it's less then border, it works fine in game.`
`15:23.43`	`Patlabor221`	`I tested it.`
`15:23.51`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`15:23.53`	`Chestal`	`right now, it uses defautl buffering, which is block buffering when stdout is not a tty`
`15:23.57`	`Chestal`	`whch is baaad`
`15:24.09`	`Doughecka`	`grrr, if I hit enter while changing the settings, it deselects it`
`15:24.18`	`Doughecka`	`instead of applying`
`15:24.25`	`Chestal`	`hmm, bzfs mixes printf / cout? ugh`
`15:25.16`	`captain_proton`	`should change to all cout`
`15:25.34`	`Chestal`	`would have to replace the DEBUG macros, though`
`15:26.27`	`Chestal`	`well, switchign to line bufferign cannot hurt, it's probably not guarenteed to work for iostreams, but I'm pretty sure that at least gnu wil have them synchrnized`
`15:26.46`	`Chestal`	`we should add a logging class or something`
`15:26.51`	`Doughecka`	`ok, and links dont show up... but everything else looks good`
`15:26.55`	`Chestal`	`but not for e8`
`15:27.03`	`Doughecka`	`what bugs are you talking about Patlabor221?`
`15:28.02`	`*** join/#bzflag gooogler (~5081381e@chat.ircnet.org)`
`15:28.19`	`Doughecka`	`even dumps XL maps`
`15:29.39`	`captain_proton`	`Patlabor221: do you have model stuff that works?`
`15:30.16`	`Doughecka`	`does BZE open XL worlds?`
`15:30.57`	`Patlabor221`	`Doughecka: no`
`15:31.03`	`Patlabor221`	`captain_proton: define working`
`15:31.03`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`15:31.12`	`Doughecka`	`sweet, spirals in bzflagXL`
`15:31.16`	`captain_proton`	`Patlabor221: can load and display models`
`15:31.23`	`Doughecka`	`haha`
`15:32.24`	`Patlabor221`	`captain_proton: shots`
`15:32.42`	`Patlabor221`	`ftp.gibbscam.com/pub/outgoing/vizkit/shots/`
`15:32.56`	`Patlabor221`	`captain_proton: well yes, it will load and display then`
`15:33.00`	`Patlabor221`	`has not been fully tested`
`15:33.08`	`Patlabor221`	`I know there are some issues with MD3 models`
`15:33.10`	`Doughecka`	`hmm`
`15:33.23`	`Patlabor221`	`and the enviroment maps look like crap`
`15:33.27`	`captain_proton`	`whats the status of your skinning stuff?`
`15:33.44`	`Patlabor221`	`it will load multiple passes`
`15:33.58`	`Patlabor221`	`I haven't fully tested the "skin" file loaders`
`15:34.01`	`Patlabor221`	`and savers`
`15:34.07`	`Patlabor221`	`I know there is an issue with saving them`
`15:34.16`	`Patlabor221`	`they work when they are defined in code.`
`15:34.23`	`Patlabor221`	`and the environs are funky`
`15:34.32`	`Patlabor221`	`it's close tho`
`15:34.48`	`captain_proton`	`how solid is the API so far?`
`15:34.55`	`Patlabor221`	`API should be fine`
`15:35.03`	`Patlabor221`	`haven't changed that in a while`
`15:35.07`	`Patlabor221`	`moslty just internals`
`15:35.14`	`captain_proton`	`care to share?`
`15:35.24`	`Patlabor221`	`techinclay you allready have it :)`
`15:35.41`	`Patlabor221`	`svn/bzflagXL/meshmith`
`15:35.52`	`Patlabor221`	`ANimMesh.h and cpp`
`15:36.19`	`Patlabor221`	`the files used in the XL project are a little older`
`15:36.28`	`Patlabor221`	`but they have an example of there use`
`15:36.43`	`Patlabor221`	`with that pimpdaddy flag.`
`15:37.08`	`Patlabor221`	`I will be back on the skin stuff when this round of bzedit fixes are done`
`15:37.31`	`Patlabor221`	`sigh to think, all these changes just to fix a stupid base loadking bug.`
`15:38.09`	`Patlabor221`	`captain_proton: it needs texutre mananger tho, what are you going to put it in?`
`15:38.28`	`captain_proton`	`Patlabor221: jetstream of course`
`15:38.31`	`Patlabor221`	`ok`
`15:38.51`	`Patlabor221`	`then you should be fine`
`15:40.33`	`captain_proton`	`CAnimModel is where its at?`
`15:40.52`	`Patlabor221`	`that is the base model class yes`
`15:40.57`	`Patlabor221`	`it will make other classes`
`15:41.11`	`Patlabor221`	`like skins and meshes`
`15:41.36`	`Patlabor221`	`ohh crap, it's still using OS specific file names too.`
`15:41.54`	`Patlabor221`	`I was going to make a file abstration class`
`15:42.23`	`Patlabor221`	`so I can get rid of all those STDtoOSFile things.`
`15:42.29`	`captain_proton`	`grumph`
`15:42.40`	`captain_proton`	`what do the skins look like?`
`15:43.05`	`Patlabor221`	`for each mesh you define the number of texture passes`
`15:43.39`	`Patlabor221`	`but I don't know if the file reader/writer works yet`
`15:46.17`	`Patlabor221`	`I should add a utility function that just says "slap this texutre on all meshes"`
`15:47.14`	`captain_proton`	`what properties does each pass ahve?`
`15:47.56`	`Doughecka`	`so the so the XL world is 100 units big, and 400 units out is the skybox?`
`15:48.54`	`Doughecka`	`does the current XL have jumping and teleporter things?`
`15:52.02`	`Patlabor221`	`the XL world is as large as you want it to be`
`15:52.11`	`Patlabor221`	`and the skybox autofits`
`15:52.17`	`Doughecka`	`the wall stops at 100`
`15:52.28`	`Patlabor221`	`what did you define the wall as in the map file?`
`15:52.35`	`Doughecka`	`hmm`
`15:52.52`	`Doughecka`	`I dumped the world out of BZE`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`World: :`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`XDim: 400`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`YDim: 400`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`WallHeigh: 5`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`GroundTex: data/Textures/World/ground`
`15:53.31`	`Doughecka`	`WallTex: data/Textures/World/wall`
`15:53.33`	`Doughecka`	`#End`
`15:53.34`	`Patlabor221`	`and what is the size set to in that file?`
`15:53.37`	`Doughecka`	`thats all it has`
`15:53.40`	`Patlabor221`	`odd`
`15:54.02`	`Doughecka`	`brb`
`15:55.17`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`15:55.25`	`Patlabor221`	`it should read in the size from the file`
`15:55.35`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`15:55.45`	`Patlabor221`	`perhaps I changed the format and didn't update the bze exporter`
`15:56.01`	`Doughecka`	`heh`
`15:56.18`	`Doughecka`	`heres the default map`
`15:56.19`	`Doughecka`	`#World:`
`15:56.20`	`Doughecka`	`XDim: 400`
`15:56.20`	`Doughecka`	`YDim: 400`
`15:56.20`	`Doughecka`	`WallHeigh: 5`
`15:56.20`	`Doughecka`	`GroundTex: data/Textures/World/ground`
`15:56.22`	`Doughecka`	`WallTex: data/Textures/World/wall`
`15:56.24`	`Doughecka`	`#End`
`15:56.45`	`Patlabor221`	`well I dono then`
`15:57.36`	`Doughecka`	`~date`
`15:57.36`		`Tue Nov 19 15:57:36 2002`
`15:57.45`	`Doughecka`	`oh, its tuesday`
`15:58.00`	`Patlabor221`	`I"m not exactly woried about XL export right now`
`15:58.05`	`Chestal`	`ibot's clock isn't very precise`
`15:58.18`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`15:58.21`	`Doughecka`	`~cpustats`
`15:58.21`		`Total CPU usage: 133.2 s ... Total used: 1.7 % (parent/child ratio: 100.0 %)`
`15:58.24`	`Chestal`	`bu tit got the day right`
`15:58.29`	`Doughecka`	`hah`
`15:58.31`	`Patlabor221`	`it's proalby based on the system it's running on`
`15:58.31`	`Doughecka`	`I would hope so`
`15:58.35`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`15:59.02`	`*** join/#bzflag paul (~paul@hibernia.clubi.ie)`
`15:59.32`	`Doughecka`	`hmm, well slick`
`16:00.06`	`Patlabor221`	`?`
`16:00.11`	`Doughecka`	`bze`
`16:00.22`	`Patlabor221`	`there isn't much dfirent`
`16:00.28`	`Patlabor221`	`I just realy hated that old grid.`
`16:00.32`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:00.56`	`Doughecka`	`now it would be nice to show a) how high a tank goes b) how tall a tank is`
`16:01.34`	`Patlabor221`	`I could make a refrence tank`
`16:01.45`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`16:01.47`	`Doughecka`	`easy?`
`16:02.14`	`Patlabor221`	`maybe`
`16:02.36`	`Patlabor221`	`but later`
`16:02.41`	`Doughecka`	`heh`
`16:03.13`	`Patlabor221`	`a fair mount of suff is still busted`
`16:03.20`	`Patlabor221`	`notice you can't set the names`
`16:03.21`	`Doughecka`	`like?`
`16:03.24`	`Doughecka`	`oh`
`16:03.25`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:03.30`	`Patlabor221`	`and links don't draw`
`16:03.36`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`16:03.44`	`Patlabor221`	`and when you make something it's not auto selected.`
`16:03.59`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:04.06`	`Doughecka`	`and when you hit enter, it doesnt apply`
`16:04.10`	`Doughecka`	`it deseletes`
`16:04.42`	`Patlabor221`	`I didn't hook anything into the enter key`
`16:04.48`	`Doughecka`	`ah`
`16:04.51`	`Patlabor221`	`proalby depends on what has focus`
`16:04.58`	`Patlabor221`	`list, dlog or what`
`16:05.03`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`16:05.47`	`Patlabor221`	`does draging even still work?`
`16:05.54`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:05.56`	`Doughecka`	`and scale`
`16:05.59`	`Patlabor221`	`wow`
`16:07.24`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a213-22-92-90.netcabo.pt)`
`16:10.14`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a213-22-92-90.netcabo.pt)`
`16:10.19`	`Patlabor221`	`does it save?`
`16:10.23`	`Doughecka`	`hmm`
`16:10.47`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:11.28`	`Doughecka`	`it saves`
`16:11.29`	`Patlabor221`	`does the saveed file work`
`16:11.36`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:11.39`	`Doughecka`	`I opened it again`
`16:11.58`	`Patlabor221`	`a flipin mazing`
`16:12.04`	`Doughecka`	`hehehee`
`16:12.10`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a213-22-92-90.netcabo.pt)`
`16:12.37`	`Patlabor221`	`I know thre are problems with remove`
`16:13.03`	`Patlabor221`	`it is posible to remove the "ground"`
`16:13.12`	`Doughecka`	`oh?`
`16:13.30`	`Doughecka`	`how?`
`16:14.23`	`Patlabor221`	`it's hard`
`16:14.25`	`Patlabor221`	`don't do it`
`16:14.27`	`Patlabor221`	`it's bad`
`16:14.29`	`Doughecka`	`oh`
`16:14.30`	`Patlabor221`	`kills it`
`16:14.35`	`Doughecka`	`heh`
`16:17.06`	`Patlabor221`	`actualy I need to change how it's done internaly`
`16:17.24`	`Doughecka`	`hm`
`16:17.34`	`Patlabor221`	`right now the walls and the ground are Elements just like everything else, you just can't see them in the list.`
`16:17.55`	`Doughecka`	`oh`
`16:18.00`	`Doughecka`	`what are they called?`
`16:18.28`	`Patlabor221`	`walls`
`16:18.30`	`Patlabor221`	`and ground`
`16:18.33`	`Doughecka`	`ah`
`16:19.00`	`Patlabor221`	`I need to make them into a "world" object`
`16:19.04`	`Patlabor221`	`that is force created`
`16:19.12`	`Doughecka`	`oh cool!!! floating toolbar`
`16:19.13`	`Patlabor221`	`and that you can't delete`
`16:19.28`	`Patlabor221`	`you've allways been able to pull off the toolbar`
`16:19.29`	`Doughecka`	`hmm`
`16:19.34`	`Doughecka`	`k`
`16:22.32`	`Patlabor221`	`it's too large tho`
`16:22.40`	`Patlabor221`	`that's why I want to split it`
`16:22.42`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`16:35.20`	`*** join/#bzflag MrName (~Really@a213-22-92-90.netcabo.pt)`
`16:35.48`	`*** join/#bzflag fiberchunks (~fiberchun@237.14.252.64.snet.net)`
`16:35.52`	`fiberchunks`	`hello`
`16:36.06`	`fiberchunks`	`having problems compiling bzedit 2.0, anyone help out?`
`16:36.11`	`Doughecka`	`noe`
`16:36.16`	`Doughecka`	`ask captain_proton`
`16:36.36`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton: are you in?`
`16:36.53`	`Doughecka`	`no`
`16:36.54`	`*** join/#bzflag home (~d9529599@chat.ircnet.org)`
`16:36.56`	`Doughecka`	`classes`
`16:37.01`	`fiberchunks`	`ah, thanks...`
`16:40.57`	`Doughecka`	`oh?`
`16:41.30`	`Patlabor221`	`you no longer have to be smart enough to build an app to be able to use an editor.`
`16:41.39`	`Doughecka`	`hehehe`
`16:41.44`	`Patlabor221`	`hell when I make an installer and tooltips`
`16:41.47`	`Patlabor221`	`we are screwed`
`16:42.06`	`Patlabor221`	`then a monkey will be able to make maps`
`16:42.16`	`Doughecka`	`lol`
`16:42.28`	`Patlabor221`	`and would you want the maps made by a monkey?`
`16:42.36`	`Patlabor221`	`or like Hoda?`
`16:42.47`	`Doughecka`	`niether`
`17:04.03`	`Patlabor221`	`ouch all the element list stuff needs redoing too`
`17:09.58`	`*** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (dbrosius@mxfcl8x125.chesco.com)`
`17:12.41`	`scanline`	`neat`
`17:12.45`	`scanline`	`oops`
`17:13.49`	`captain_proton`	`http://www.lipsons.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/escher/lego_ascending.jpg`
`17:14.24`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`17:17.08`	`captain_proton`	`hmm`
`17:17.20`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: we should do a lego moonbase all in LDraw schematics ;)`
`17:17.37`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`17:17.45`	`scanline`	`is LDraw portable?`
`17:18.39`	`captain_proton`	`yep`
`17:25.18`	`Patlabor221`	`uggg almost got it all working agin :/`
`17:29.44`	`captain_proton`	`hahahaha`
`17:29.49`	`captain_proton`	`there's an emacs mode for ldraw files`
`17:34.45`	`*** join/#bzflag ski1 (ski@1Cust99.tnt42.nyc3.da.uu.net)`
`17:34.45`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: you interested in some legos? ;)`
`17:35.02`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`17:36.32`	`captain_proton`	`all the fun without actually having to buy anything!`
`17:36.59`	`scanline`	`Reading Package Lists... Done`
`17:36.59`	`scanline`	`Building Dependency Tree... Done`
`17:36.59`	`scanline`	`eddienull: Couldn't find package ldraw`
`17:37.12`	`scanline`	`grr.. xchat expanded "E:"`
`17:37.32`	`captain_proton`	`bad xchat! sit!`
`17:37.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Chestal (thilo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`17:37.50`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o Chestal ] by ChanServ`
`17:37.51`	`captain_proton`	`its not actually called "ldraw"`
`17:37.59`	`captain_proton`	`look for l3p and/or ldglite`
`17:42.49`	`Patlabor221`	`I saw something like that`
`17:42.54`	`Patlabor221`	`a 2d one and a 3d one`
`17:43.05`	`scanline`	`this was a 2D optical page scanner`
`17:43.10`	`Patlabor221`	`saw one that Milled Toast too`
`17:43.31`	`scanline`	`the lego light sensor moved back and forth, page advanced slowly, and it sent the image to my laptop over IR`
`17:43.44`	`scanline`	`it was pretty low-res, but you could make out an image.. barely :)`
`17:43.51`	`Patlabor221`	`one guy made one that was on wheels and drove over stuff and did the backand forth thing with a probe`
`17:44.00`	`Patlabor221`	`and made a 3d file`
`17:44.36`	`Patlabor221`	`he scaned his sleeping cat onece`
`17:44.46`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`17:45.14`	`Patlabor221`	`I think the best use of them is the public magic 8 ball`
`17:47.23`	`captain_proton`	`i got leocad running earlier but its interface -sucks-`
`17:48.40`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: what version of ldglite do you have?`
`17:49.23`	`scanline`	`0.9.4`
`17:49.52`	`captain_proton`	`hmm`
`17:50.23`	`scanline`	`I had to comment out its offscreen rendering support, aside from that it compiled fine`
`17:50.55`	`captain_proton`	/usr/X11R6/lib/libOSMesa.so: undefined reference to `_glapi_add_entrypoint'
`17:50.56`	`captain_proton`	/usr/X11R6/lib/libOSMesa.so: undefined reference to `_glapi_get_context'
`17:50.56`	`captain_proton`	/usr/X11R6/lib/libOSMesa.so: undefined reference to `_glapi_get_dispatch_table_size'
`17:50.58`	`captain_proton`	`...`
`17:51.20`	`Patlabor221`	`what is a map of large scale complexity with a LOT of porters?`
`17:51.21`	`scanline`	`comment out OFFSCREEN_FLAGS and OFFSCREEN_LIBS in makefile.linux`
`17:52.34`	`captain_proton`	main.o(.text+0x4ca0): In function `saveasdatfile':
`17:52.34`	`captain_proton`	/tmp/ldraw/ldglite/main.c:3786: undefined reference to `dirfilepath'
`17:52.34`	`captain_proton`	main.o(.text+0x7625): In function `edit_mode_keyboard':
`17:52.34`	`captain_proton`	/tmp/ldraw/ldglite/main.c:4964: undefined reference to `pasteCommand'
`17:52.51`	`scanline`	`grumble`
`17:54.36`	`scanline`	`well, I havd ldglite compiled but it doesn't draw anything`
`17:54.50`	`scanline`	`oh wait, this model is missing a bunch of files`
`17:59.18`	`*** join/#bzflag sussudio (Suss@d51132b6.cable.wanadoo.nl)`
`18:02.52`	`Patlabor221`	`ftp.gibbscam.com/pub/outgoing/vizkit/BZE-1.5.9a12.zip`
`18:02.56`	`Patlabor221`	`sorry`
`18:03.01`	`Patlabor221`	`ftp.gibbscam.com/pub/outgoing/vizkit/BZE-1.5.9a2.zip`
`18:03.08`	`Patlabor221`	`for who ever wants it`
`18:03.20`	`sussudio`	`will it eat my leftovers?`
`18:03.33`	`Patlabor221`	`it may eat your maps`
`18:03.38`	`sussudio`	`hmm`
`18:03.51`	`Patlabor221`	`well not unless you save`
`18:04.08`	`Patlabor221`	`actualy doug said it saved ok`
`18:04.24`	`sussudio`	`yeah doug is a reliable source of information`
`18:05.04`	`Patlabor221`	`true`
`18:05.09`	`Patlabor221`	`that's why it's called an "alpha"`
`18:05.30`	`sussudio`	`yay! application error!`
`18:05.45`	`Patlabor221`	`realy`
`18:05.46`	`Patlabor221`	`neat`
`18:05.48`	`sussudio`	`uh huh`
`18:06.07`	`Patlabor221`	`on open or launch?`
`18:06.16`	`sussudio`	`first thing i see`
`18:06.28`	`Patlabor221`	`so on launch`
`18:06.37`	`sussudio`	`yeah`
`18:07.02`	`Patlabor221`	`I must still have something set as debug`
`18:07.02`	`sussudio`	`well it always does that when i launch from command prompt`
`18:07.06`	`sussudio`	`thought maybe you fixed it`
`18:07.11`	`Patlabor221`	`ohh no`
`18:07.17`	`Patlabor221`	`tho I think I can`
`18:07.35`	`Patlabor221`	`it gets screwy if the working directory is not the app dir`
`18:08.15`	`sussudio`	`maybe thats why it crashes under wine too`
`18:09.08`	`sussudio`	`hm F on teleporter means front i guess`
`18:10.13`	`captain_proton`	`hmm`
`18:10.24`	`captain_proton`	`the leocad interface isn't quite so evil as i thought`
`18:10.39`	`*** join/#bzflag kunphuzil (~kunphuzil@1Cust195.tnt3.phoenix.az.da.uu.net)`
`18:11.30`	`sussudio`	`but where did the actual boxes to create stuff go?`
`18:11.37`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221_ (~Patlabor2@208.48.199.202)`
`18:11.46`	`kunphuzil`	`can you create your own maps?`
`18:11.47`	`patlabor221_`	`whao`
`18:12.00`	`patlabor221_`	`I hate geting disconectoed`
`18:12.08`	`sussudio`	`<sussudio> but where did the actual boxes to create stuff go?`
`18:12.26`	`patlabor221_`	`ohh they are gone for a bit`
`18:12.28`	`sussudio`	`:-P`
`18:12.39`	`patlabor221_`	`pick they object type and hit add on left`
`18:12.50`	`patlabor221_`	`I am gonna put them back in in there own pallet`
`18:12.50`	`sussudio`	`eh?`
`18:12.57`	`patlabor221_`	`the list`
`18:13.02`	`patlabor221_`	`has a pulldown at the top`
`18:13.05`	`patlabor221_`	`pick the type`
`18:13.09`	`patlabor221_`	`and hit the add button`
`18:13.25`	`patlabor221_`	`kunphuzil: yes you can make your own maps.`
`18:13.44`	`kunphuzil`	`how?`
`18:13.49`	`sussudio`	`but it wont let me create a link`
`18:13.52`	`sussudio`	`no input`
`18:14.03`	`patlabor221_`	`ether a text editor or a mapeditor`
`18:14.09`	`patlabor221_`	`do you have teleporters yet?`
`18:14.17`	`patlabor221_`	`sussudio: you have to make the porters first`
`18:14.23`	`sussudio`	`i have 8 teleporters`
`18:14.24`	`sussudio`	`DUH?`
`18:14.53`	`patlabor221_`	`if you click on the link, it dosn't show the pulldowns?`
`18:15.02`	`sussudio`	`it just says none`
`18:15.10`	`patlabor221_`	`odd`
`18:15.23`	`patlabor221_`	`it should list all the teleporters in the map`
`18:15.36`	`sussudio`	`it doesnt`
`18:15.52`	`patlabor221_`	`existing map? or from scratch?`
`18:15.58`	`sussudio`	`loaded map`
`18:16.04`	`patlabor221_`	`can you send me the map?`
`18:16.19`	`sussudio`	`shrug. it probably works the same with any map`
`18:16.27`	`patlabor221_`	`it works with spirals`
`18:16.29`	`patlabor221_`	`just fine`
`18:17.11`	`patlabor221_`	`bah I can't dcc, firewal`
`18:17.22`	`sussudio`	`well no send then`
`18:18.07`	`patlabor221_`	`there is nothing in the pulldows?`
`18:18.12`	`sussudio`	`nope`
`18:18.37`	`patlabor221_`	`let me grab another map from jzaun`
`18:18.41`	`fiberchunks`	`anyone around that could help me out with compiling bzedit 2.0?`
`18:18.58`	`patlabor221_`	`I'm sure cap: can`
`18:18.59`	`sussudio`	`fiberchunks: yeah, get 50MB of friggin gnome2 libs and pray`
`18:19.24`	`patlabor221_`	`I don't think edit 2.0 used gnome 2`
`18:19.25`	`fiberchunks`	`sussudio: heh, alright, is there a better editor for linux environs?`
`18:19.35`	`fiberchunks`	`no, it doesn't...it uses 1.4`
`18:19.41`	`patlabor221_`	`there are only 3 editors`
`18:19.46`	`patlabor221_`	`lin, win, and java`
`18:19.47`	`fiberchunks`	`2.1 uses gnome2`
`18:19.53`	`sussudio`	`there's no way to make it work if you're using woody or sarge`
`18:19.57`	`fiberchunks`	`hrm..which is the best, in your opinion`
`18:19.59`	`sussudio`	`all the gnome2 crap is in sid`
`18:20.01`	`sussudio`	`and you dont want sid`
`18:20.19`	`patlabor221_`	`well in MY option, that would be the windows one`
`18:20.25`	`patlabor221_`	`but that's becasue I wrote it.`
`18:20.32`	`fiberchunks`	`lol`
`18:21.24`	`captain_proton`	`woo!`
`18:21.28`	`captain_proton`	`finished building a lego car`
`18:21.42`	`fiberchunks`	`cool, how big?`
`18:22.45`	`patlabor221_`	`sussudio, do you see like the remnants of some other interface parts when you go to your new link?`
`18:22.54`	`patlabor221_`	`like other text edit boxes?`
`18:23.00`	`sussudio`	`nope`
`18:23.04`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton: can you help me out with linux bzedit compile issues?`
`18:23.18`	`patlabor221_`	`hmmmmm`
`18:23.21`	`captain_proton`	`fiberchunks: whats the issue?`
`18:23.25`	`sussudio`	`chunkypants: it wont work if youre not running debian/sid`
`18:23.30`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: eaten yet?`
`18:24.29`	`fiberchunks`	`texture_manager.h: after previous specification in 'int texturemanager::loadBMP(const char, TextureInfo, bool = false), default argument given for ...`
`18:24.46`	`captain_proton`	`ahh`
`18:24.48`	`fiberchunks`	`sussudio: why not? I have all the gnome 1.4 libs installed`
`18:24.51`	`captain_proton`	`get rid of the = false from that`
`18:24.59`	`scanline`	`captain_proton: no`
`18:25.06`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: care to?`
`18:25.12`	`patlabor221_`	`captain_proton: you didn't fix that yet?`
`18:25.14`	`scanline`	`captain_proton: sure, just a moment`
`18:25.23`	`fiberchunks`	`ah, thanks...brb`
`18:25.29`	`captain_proton`	`patlabor221_: laziness owns my sould`
`18:25.32`	`captain_proton`	`soul*`
`18:25.46`	`patlabor221_`	`I dono, cell may have you beat`
`18:25.49`	`sussudio`	`i made a lego doug`
`18:25.50`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: you gotta see my lego car`
`18:25.51`	`sussudio`	`http://home.wanadoo.nl/sussudio/cam.jpg`
`18:26.52`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton: from both the class definition and the .cpp or just the class?`
`18:26.58`	`captain_proton`	`fiberchunks: just from the .cpp`
`18:27.03`	`fiberchunks`	`k`
`18:27.05`	`sussudio`	`you down with cpp?`
`18:27.31`	`*** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~Patlabor2@208.48.199.202)`
`18:28.16`	`Patlabor221`	`what the hell are they doing to the firebox`
`18:30.43`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah it's a funky interface problem`
`18:30.52`	`Patlabor221`	`very odd`
`18:32.31`	`Patlabor221`	`sussudio, do you think it would be benifical to have a mode where I showed the name of each object floating above it`
`18:33.11`	`Doughecka`	`I do`
`18:33.17`	`Patlabor221`	`~sud`
`18:33.17`		`Shut Up, Doug.`
`18:33.23`	`Patlabor221`	`I know you do`
`18:33.31`	`Patlabor221`	`I want more opinions`
`18:34.01`	`Patlabor221`	`so far all I got is 1 doug vote.`
`18:35.01`	`Doughecka`	`odd`
`18:35.13`	`Doughecka`	`I have a froze explorer window`
`18:35.29`	`sussudio`	`Patlabor221: yeah, but make a toggle to turn it on and off`
`18:35.48`	`Doughecka`	`2 votes`
`18:36.11`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah in the toolbar like the others`
`18:36.16`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton: missing stl.h, where is it normally? (needed by tga.cpp`
`18:36.42`	`Patlabor221`	`I'm also thinking about adding a "hide" this item, feature`
`18:36.45`	`Patlabor221`	`so it won't draw`
`18:36.50`	`Doughecka`	`yea`
`18:36.54`	`Doughecka`	`would be nice`
`18:37.40`	`Patlabor221`	`wierd I think I just had a bad build, links are working now`
`18:37.59`	`Doughecka`	`oh`
`18:38.03`	`sussudio`	`Debian Search of 'stl.h' (5 shown; 8 total): (/usr/include/Qstl.h) in devel/nana ;; (/usr/include/g++-3/stl.h) in devel/libstdc++2.10-dev ;; (/usr/include/ministl/ministl.h) in devel/libmico2.3-dev ;; (/usr/lib/R/library/ts/html/stl.html) in math/r-base-html ;; (/usr/include/avifile/avm_stl.h) in devel/libavifile0.7-dev.`
`18:38.17`	`sussudio`	`d'uh`
`18:38.19`	`Patlabor221`	`stl.h?`
`18:38.24`	`Patlabor221`	`what the frell?`
`18:39.05`	`Patlabor221`	`he's still using TGA.h`
`18:39.28`	`Patlabor221`	`I thought he was using at least the new Texture manager`
`18:40.00`	`fiberchunks`	`Patlabor221: I got the source from shellshock site, is there a newer version about?`
`18:40.14`	`fiberchunks`	`Patlabor221: besides 2.1 I mean`
`18:40.59`	`Patlabor221`	`well I know cap keeps them on his system`
`18:41.08`	`Patlabor221`	`but he may not have used the new stuff till 2.0`
`18:41.12`	`Patlabor221`	`or 2.1 I mean`
`18:41.57`	`fiberchunks`	`stl.h is in my g++-3 incl dir, and that is what I am using to compile...but it doesn't see it for some reason..`
`18:42.45`	`Patlabor221`	`is it all lower case in caps code?`
`18:42.57`	`Patlabor221`	`comment it out and see what happens :)`
`18:43.06`	`sussudio`	`apt-get install libstdc++2.10-dev`
`18:44.00`	`sussudio`	`hmm 8KB map and only one building...`
`18:44.08`	`sussudio`	`maybe i overdid it a bit`
`18:44.26`	`Patlabor221`	`damnit it's not saving hames`
`18:44.30`	`Patlabor221`	`names`
`18:45.01`	`Patlabor221`	`and it's not doing the dupe right`
`18:46.22`	`Patlabor221`	`well I'l have to look at it later then`
`18:46.35`	`sussudio`	`grr it's still not lasertight`
`18:46.50`	`Patlabor221`	`lazertight?`
`18:47.23`	`sussudio`	`yeah. i made a building with teleports that go out, but i dont want the shivering effect between walls and teleporters`
`18:47.29`	`sussudio`	`so i tried to fit them right`
`18:47.36`	`sussudio`	`but appearently there's still a fraction open`
`18:47.44`	`sussudio`	`maybe i should just get rid of the borders`
`18:48.15`	`Patlabor221`	`you can make X scale not 0 and that makes the field move out a bit`
`18:48.22`	`Patlabor221`	`just make it less then border`
`18:48.56`	`sussudio`	`well it's not a square building so calculating right is not easy`
`18:50.17`	`sussudio`	`that's one thing i hate about spiff maps (one of many). he doesnt play his own maps before submitting them so you get ugly things like wall shivering effects`
`18:53.20`	`BZFlag`	`~pay attention`
`18:53.20`		`ACTION thinks bzbot should pay attention`
`18:53.27`	`BZFlag`	`~pay attention`
`18:53.27`		`ACTION thinks eddienull should pay attention`
`18:54.28`	`sussudio`	`~hammertime`
`18:54.28`		`ACTION beats up doug`
`18:56.58`	`BZFlag`	`~hammertime`
`18:56.58`		`ACTION beats up sussudio`
`18:57.06`	`BZFlag`	`~hammertime`
`18:57.06`		`ACTION beats up captain_proton`
`18:57.32`	`sussudio`	`-\|- (Pink_Floyd)_[12]_Comfortably_Numb.mp3 (12,770,053 bytes 179kbps VBR Joint Stereo 9mins 31secs Genre:Pop Year:1995 Album:Pulse CD2`
`21:09.32`	`*** join/#bzflag scanline (~micah@aden2-230-dhcp.Colorado.EDU)`
`21:29.30`	`*** join/#bzflag paul (~paul@hibernia.clubi.ie)`
`21:56.24`	`*** join/#bzflag captain_proton (~jupiter@aden2-23-dhcp.resnet.Colorado.EDU)`
`21:56.25`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o captain_proton ] by ChanServ`
`22:01.35`	`captain_proton`	`now what in the world is a joystick hat?`
`22:05.34`	`sussudio`	`let's hope we never find out`
`22:06.39`	`captain_proton`	`SDL_JoystickNumHats ? Get the number of joystick hats`
`22:12.35`	`scanline`	`captain_proton: usually it's a little thumbswitch that can be pushed in 4 directions`
`22:13.03`	`captain_proton`	`hmm, interesting`
`22:17.02`	`captain_proton`	`that can't be right though`
`22:17.08`	`scanline`	`?`
`22:17.11`	`captain_proton`	`the input from a hat is just a single unsigned char`
`22:17.41`	`scanline`	`http://www.asa2fly.com/images/joystick.jpg <-- grey thing in the middle is a hat`
`22:18.48`	`captain_proton`	`so what does the char mean then?`
`22:19.09`	`scanline`	`maybe it's a constant indicating a direction?`
`22:19.39`	`scanline`	`http://sdldoc.csn.ul.ie/sdljoystickgethat.php`
`22:19.46`	`scanline`	`SDL_HAT_UP, SDL_HAT_RIGHT, etc...`
`22:19.52`	`captain_proton`	`indeed it is`
`22:37.50`	`*** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (dbrosius@mxfcl6x223.chesco.com)`
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`23:27.19`	`sussudio`	`bah... so far for obscure tv series references....`
`23:27.24`	`sussudio`	`nobody got it on slashdot`
`23:27.26`	`sussudio`	`http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=45506&cid=4711100`
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