| 00:00.08 | brlcad | do whatever works best for you |
| 00:04.39 | brlcad | Any windows building devs listening? |
| 00:05.51 | brlcad | Need someone to verify that the released 1.10.6 wasn't compiled as a non-production release -- seems to be rather slower for many players |
| 00:06.48 | SportChick | (windows only players) - "piggy slow" to quote SMagee |
| 00:07.03 | purple_cow | brlcad: if it was debug we'd have folks asking for a DLL |
| 00:07.13 | brlcad | hrm, good point |
| 00:11.01 | *** join/#bzflag phr0z3nn (UNIX@cpc3-duns3-3-0-cust171.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 00:19.49 | sussudio | badger? |
| 00:22.12 | brlcad | purple_cow: potential uses? |
| 00:22.38 | brlcad | mathematics visualization aide perhaps |
| 00:22.53 | *** part/#bzflag bluedragon (~LANGSTON@pcp01492481pcs.tybout01.de.comcast.net) |
| 00:22.56 | brlcad | i.e. sin() in 3-space in a simple case |
| 00:23.42 | SportChick | laugh AT me? why NOW?! |
| 00:23.53 | brlcad | probably for using Windows again |
| 00:23.56 | JBdiGriz | because you were waiting for the windoze people ;) |
| 00:24.46 | brlcad | purple_cow: also plans etc if any |
| 00:24.49 | SportChick | well, those 'nixies sure don't seem to be able to solve my problems |
| 00:25.10 | brlcad | windows simply has too many to begin to even try to start |
| 00:25.23 | SportChick | hey now! don't be blaming ME for that |
| 00:25.49 | brlcad | I'm not blaming you .. even if you do make the active choice to continue using it |
| 00:25.55 | JBdiGriz | I'm not blaming you, but I'm still laughing :) |
| 00:26.42 | JBdiGriz | I had to work today, you could laugh about that, except for the type of work I had to do. |
| 00:26.58 | SportChick | which was? |
| 00:26.59 | brlcad | you could laugh at my inability to get log4cxx to compile |
| 00:27.03 | brlcad | s/compile/run/ |
| 00:27.06 | purple_cow | heh, no real uses :) |
| 00:27.10 | purple_cow | there are some future things |
| 00:27.25 | brlcad | you don't think there are real uses? |
| 00:27.26 | JBdiGriz | I had to take my team to the ballpark and make sure they were well fed while we watched the game. :) |
| 00:27.27 | purple_cow | but i need to figure out something to say about what we're actually doing |
| 00:27.31 | purple_cow | brlcad: nope |
| 00:27.37 | SportChick | heh, jb |
| 00:27.49 | brlcad | I found some of the visualizations of simple equations to be rather intriguing |
| 00:28.06 | brlcad | you can visualize the complexity |
| 00:28.09 | purple_cow | just because something is pretty doesn't mean that it's useful :) |
| 00:28.26 | SportChick | okay, jb...I'll laugh at the sheer cushiness of the job you did today |
| 00:28.28 | purple_cow | some of the random imaging techniques we use are useful, but there's nothing really new there |
| 00:28.48 | JBdiGriz | purple_cow: I know some people that you have described well with that. |
| 00:28.53 | brlcad | It'd be interesting to toss a rather complex equation in |
| 00:29.02 | brlcad | something that has real topology otherwise |
| 00:29.31 | brlcad | like what'd happen if you fed it the implicit equation of a sphere? |
| 00:30.12 | brlcad | or a circle, be that the case |
| 00:31.36 | purple_cow | brlcad: these are iterative functions |
| 00:31.48 | purple_cow | not implicit equations |
| 00:33.25 | purple_cow | plus spheres aren't chaotic, so a histogram visualization of it would be very boring |
| 00:34.06 | brlcad | so, explicit equations then .. iterate |
| 00:34.32 | purple_cow | how would that work? |
| 00:34.52 | purple_cow | the difference is that an explicit equation defines a topology, whereas these define a transformation |
| 00:35.17 | brlcad | hence my point of "it'd be interesting to see what happens" :) |
| 00:35.30 | purple_cow | but how do you iterate something like that? |
| 00:36.09 | purple_cow | a transformation is easy to iterate |
| 00:36.22 | brlcad | just iterate the X,Y,Z values |
| 00:36.30 | brlcad | you end up point sampling the surface |
| 00:36.55 | brlcad | same idea is used to make point clouds |
| 00:37.03 | brlcad | from csg data |
| 00:37.10 | purple_cow | that's not really iteration |
| 00:37.11 | brlcad | or any geometry for that matter |
| 00:37.13 | purple_cow | think more "recursion" |
| 00:37.31 | brlcad | recursively add 1? :) |
| 00:37.41 | purple_cow | pff |
| 00:37.44 | brlcad | hehe |
| 00:42.36 | brlcad | well, once I see a mac os x binary for fyre, I'll give her a spin myself and toss some juice in |
| 00:42.43 | purple_cow | heh |
| 00:43.00 | purple_cow | you could probably build it with X and gtk+ installed |
| 00:43.16 | brlcad | yeah, I started.. |
| 00:43.20 | brlcad | too much stuff going on |
| 00:44.04 | heinola | looking at making a mech warrior type game a basic one lol |
| 00:45.18 | brlcad | lol? |
| 00:46.39 | heinola | in three years maby lol |
| 00:47.17 | heinola | i am laughing at my lack of spare time |
| 00:48.43 | purple_cow | well, if we end up going we'll probably find someone with a laptop to run it on during the convo session |
| 00:48.56 | purple_cow | to show off it's l33t interactivity |
| 00:51.42 | brlcad | it should make it, I'd hope |
| 00:51.58 | purple_cow | i'm not asserting, i said "if we end up going" ;-) |
| 00:52.03 | brlcad | the only thing going against it, I think, is that it has a better chance for the art gallery |
| 00:52.12 | brlcad | i know :) |
| 00:52.36 | brlcad | I'd just as rather assume you're going, and then be quietly disappointed |
| 00:53.06 | brlcad | er .. |
| 00:53.26 | brlcad | that didn't come out quite right :) I'm seriously hoping you make it |
| 00:53.37 | brlcad | that'd be very cool |
| 00:54.23 | purple_cow | indeedy |
| 00:55.22 | brlcad | hopefully companies will have money this year to give away cool toys |
| 00:58.26 | heinola | like at the ASE conventions i went to |
| 00:58.50 | heinola | all the pens, fridg-magnets,mouse pads i could want |
| 00:59.35 | purple_cow | brlcad: i think they're working on a library that provides filesystem-like access |
| 01:00.13 | brlcad | svnfs? |
| 01:00.19 | brlcad | heh |
| 01:01.55 | orchid | !apropos mime |
| 01:01.56 | guu | orchid: mimetype |
| 01:02.03 | orchid | !mimetype asc |
| 01:02.04 | guu | orchid: I couldn't figure out that filename. |
| 01:03.58 | brlcad | heh, i like svn's HACKER file |
| 01:04.14 | brlcad | .. we need a HACKER file.. |
| 01:05.10 | orchid | brlcad: what did you use to install gentoo? i see 2 "minimal" cd's, one 82mb and one 189mb |
| 01:05.14 | brlcad | hrm, and they are much better layed out than we are |
| 01:05.40 | brlcad | umm |
| 01:05.54 | purple_cow | brlcad: HACKER? you mean HACKING? |
| 01:06.33 | brlcad | orchid: I used one for PPC, but I believe it was of the 189 type -- I still redid everything from the first stage |
| 01:06.46 | brlcad | er, purple_cow yes. |
| 01:06.57 | purple_cow | orchid: i'd recommend livecd+stage3 tarball |
| 01:07.06 | brlcad | "HACKER'S GUIDE TO SUBVERSION" .. threw the brain off |
| 01:07.14 | orchid | purple_cow: so thats precompiled? |
| 01:07.17 | purple_cow | brlcad: that's much like our DEVINFO, just better written :) |
| 01:07.24 | brlcad | yep, I noticed |
| 01:07.34 | purple_cow | orchid: it has most of the base system precompiled, and avoids the bootstrap process |
| 01:07.53 | brlcad | I think I'll remove the DEVINFO I have in another project and replace it with HACKING ;) |
| 01:08.02 | orchid | hrm, i am just worried it will overwrite the existing grub, with my debian install on it |
| 01:08.20 | purple_cow | orchid: the install doesn't do anything automatically |
| 01:08.39 | purple_cow | you should probably just use the same /boot |
| 01:08.49 | purple_cow | (if you have a separate partition for that) |
| 01:08.54 | brlcad | yeah.. it doesn't exactly "do" anything for you -- good to follow a guide/script |
| 01:09.13 | orchid | yeah i have seperate /boot partiton |
| 01:27.20 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@24.1.104.25) |
| 01:27.20 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 01:27.22 | *** join/#bzflag BZFlag (~timr@c-24-1-104-25.client.comcast.net) |
| 01:27.23 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o BZFlag] by ChanServ |
| 01:31.25 | *** join/#bzflag gsker (~gsker@c-66-41-79-19.mn.client2.attbi.com) |
| 01:31.49 | gsker | Does bzfrelay work any more? I get incompatible version when I run it. |
| 01:32.08 | *** join/#bzflag phr0z3nn (~phr0z3nn@cpc3-duns3-3-0-cust171.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 01:32.12 | gsker | If I change the version in the source it gives me some error about the flag protocol being wrong.l |
| 01:33.48 | gsker | unsupported response from server during flag negotiation.... |
| 01:35.42 | TimRiker | gsker: nope. bzfrelay is still for 1.7 versions. |
| 01:36.06 | TimRiker | port forwarding 5155 udp and tcp is all that should be required now. |
| 01:36.27 | TimRiker | We should likely just nuke it from the cvs tree. |
| 01:37.03 | gsker | okay! Now to tryh to remember my iptables commands to do that. ..... |
| 01:37.36 | *** join/#bzflag brlcad_ (~morrison@pcp05887281pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) |
| 01:40.15 | TimRiker | /sbin/iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 --dport 81 -j DNAT --to 192.168.87.7:80 |
| 01:40.22 | TimRiker | /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.87.7 --dport 80 -j ACCEPT |
| 01:40.45 | TimRiker | those 2 I use here to get incoming port 81 directed to a port 80 server at 192.168.87.7 |
| 01:40.51 | TimRiker | adjustment should be easy. |
| 01:40.57 | gsker | Thanks! |
| 01:41.04 | TimRiker | oh, and add similar udp rules. |
| 01:41.45 | TimRiker | tcp by itself would work ok, but udp game play is better. |
| 01:44.45 | trepan_away | brlcad: decide whatcha wanna do with the OpenGLTexFont timer? |
| 01:45.32 | TimRiker | gsker: some versions of those rules include an incoming ip address, but my ip is dynamic so I just do anthing to port 81 on eth0 |
| 01:46.11 | *** join/#bzflag jolly (~hjjj@jvnineteen.ne.client2.attbi.com) |
| 01:46.51 | gsker | Hmmm. I have two kids who are trying to connectg to their friend's server down the street. |
| 01:46.58 | gsker | The friend is running on port 5154 |
| 01:47.21 | gsker | we have an isolated interface eth1 subnet 10.1.1.255 |
| 01:47.24 | gsker | I tried this sbin/iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth1 --dport 5154 -j DNAT --to 66.41.73.52:5154 |
| 01:47.27 | gsker | ;2~ |
| 01:47.29 | brlcad | trepan_away: not really .. we talked about putting a generic timing facility in libplatform wrapping the sdl timer |
| 01:47.39 | gsker | but it didn't work. :-( |
| 01:47.49 | orchid | hey j |
| 01:47.57 | jolly | hi orchid |
| 01:48.01 | brlcad | but I think the bigger issue is that OpenGLTexFont has some logic that more belongs in src/game or src/bzflag |
| 01:48.17 | CIA-4 | BZFlag: 03timriker * 10bzflag/debian/bzflag.menu: debian icon from 1.10 tree |
| 01:49.40 | trepan_away | how about a simple local function with gettimeofday and timeGetTime... ain't pretty, but it works, and provides library separation |
| 01:49.52 | CIA-4 | BZFlag: 03timriker * 10bzflag/debian/changelog.in: 1.10.6 |
| 01:51.00 | trepan | brlcad: sry, missed the libPlatform remark, i like that, good place for it |
| 01:51.30 | trepan | but do you really want to tie it to SDL, is SDL going to be required hanceforth? |
| 01:51.37 | TimRiker | gsker: you need 2 rules. one to NAT and one to allow the forwarding. |
| 01:52.01 | gsker | yes I have them both.... paste didn't work. |
| 01:52.11 | TimRiker | ah. and what happens? |
| 01:52.26 | brlcad | trepan: up to TimRiker :) |
| 01:52.29 | gsker | error connecting to server . |
| 01:52.42 | purple_cow | TimRiker: you only need that second rule if the default behavior is drop, no? |
| 01:52.51 | brlcad | I know tupone would just as rather remove the old platform code, I'm ambivalent |
| 01:53.05 | TimRiker | trepan, brlcad: if we can get all the platforms to try and pass off SDL builds, the old code will die. |
| 01:53.08 | gsker | Well, nothing get through between the interfaces now. |
| 01:53.13 | gsker | second rule is: /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth1 -d 10.1.1.1 --dport 5154 -j ACCEPT |
| 01:53.20 | TimRiker | the issue is finding folks for all the other platforms. |
| 01:53.32 | TimRiker | gsker: the server is on a public address? |
| 01:53.44 | gsker | yes. We can play from the firewall machine. |
| 01:54.16 | JBdiGriz | TimRiker: Who's the pay to play guy? |
| 01:54.19 | TimRiker | gsker: and your firewall is NATting? if so then you should not need a proxy at all. |
| 01:54.50 | gsker | The firewall is NOT natting now. I only use web proxy for the 10.1.1.0 net |
| 01:54.51 | TimRiker | ie: I'm running behind a NAT firewall with no special rules and I can play woth tcp+udp just fine. |
| 01:55.15 | TimRiker | gsker: ahh. facist firewall then? ;-) |
| 01:55.23 | gsker | I've just never got around to learning how to set up the natting. |
| 01:55.25 | gsker | :-) |
| 01:55.34 | TimRiker | that's even easier.... |
| 01:55.45 | gsker | how so? |
| 01:56.12 | TimRiker | msg... |
| 01:57.14 | gsker | I'll play with that |
| 01:58.17 | gsker | should 192.168.87.1 be 10.1.1.1 on mine or 10.1.1.0? Or doesn't it matter |
| 01:58.45 | TimRiker | what's your netmask? |
| 01:58.55 | TimRiker | 255.255.255.0? |
| 01:58.56 | gsker | 255.255.255.0 I think. |
| 01:59.13 | gsker | then can the inside machine use the public ip? |
| 01:59.14 | TimRiker | k. 10.x.x.x is normally a 255.0.0.0 (ie: class A) |
| 01:59.27 | TimRiker | yes. so really a single rule like: |
| 01:59.50 | TimRiker | /sbin/iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 10.1.1.0/255.255.255.0 -j MASQUERADE |
| 02:00.08 | TimRiker | should do it. and all internal machines will be able to use public addresses for anything. |
| 02:01.01 | TimRiker | oh, you are correct. 10.1.1.0/255.255.255.0 or 10.1.1.1/255.255.255.0 would work the same. |
| 02:01.26 | gsker | weird. don't the forwardings show up with an iptables --list? |
| 02:01.26 | TimRiker | JBdiGriz: pay to play? |
| 02:01.59 | gsker | cuz they don't on mine. (sorry to be so dense.) |
| 02:02.19 | TimRiker | gsker: try iptables -L -t nat |
| 02:02.37 | gsker | yup. that shows it up. |
| 02:03.53 | TimRiker | --list defaults to the "filter" table only. you need to get to the "nat" table. |
| 02:04.01 | gsker | ah |
| 02:04.16 | gsker | damn... still ain't connecting. |
| 02:04.31 | gsker | MASQUERADE all -- 10.1.1.0/24 anywhere |
| 02:04.39 | TimRiker | can your internal machines get to port 80 on outside machines now? |
| 02:04.54 | TimRiker | ie: "telnet av.com 80" etc. |
| 02:04.56 | gsker | trying.... |
| 02:05.02 | TimRiker | well, you likely don't have dns there... |
| 02:05.08 | TimRiker | ~nslookup av.com |
| 02:05.57 | TimRiker | so "telnet 66.218.71.198 80" then type "GET /" should get you something if the nat rule is working. |
| 02:06.31 | JBdiGriz | TimRiker: A guy showed up and said he was talking to you about pay to play, I can copy the beginnings of the conversation in a private message. |
| 02:07.04 | TimRiker | JBdiGriz: I've talked to quite a number fo people about it. |
| 02:07.21 | purple_cow | pay to play? |
| 02:07.26 | TimRiker | I tell them: 1) public servers will always exist. 2) free client software will always exist. |
| 02:07.28 | trepan | purple_cow: beat me to it |
| 02:08.15 | TimRiker | so if you want to run a "pay to play" server (or servers) you better be 1) faster than snot and 2) offer incentives like prizes etc in order to get people to want to pay. |
| 02:09.13 | JBdiGriz | sounds like this guy was bending the truth a little bit. Thanks. |
| 02:10.07 | *** join/#bzflag patlabor2211 (~JeffM@adsl-64-172-198-203.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 02:10.30 | gsker | believe I might need a default route.... |
| 02:10.57 | TimRiker | extra feature might be added but pay to play folks first provided that they either a) LGPL them or b) implement them such that LGPL works or c) offer something compelling enough to convince me to allow them a non LGPL license, ship me the patches, and commit to a date in the near future when those patches will be LGPLed. |
| 02:11.05 | sussudio | if you didn't have a default route, you wouldn't be here |
| 02:11.16 | TimRiker | gsker: ah! yes. you need to list 10.1.1.1 as your default router. |
| 02:11.49 | gsker | can't I just put eth0? |
| 02:11.59 | TimRiker | gsker: I doubt it. |
| 02:12.19 | sussudio | gsker: can you get *anywhere* from that box? like browse teh intarweb? |
| 02:12.22 | TimRiker | the machine on the 10.1.1.0 network other than 10.1.1.1 needs to set 10.1.1.1 as the router. |
| 02:12.45 | gsker | yeah. That's clear. |
| 02:13.14 | TimRiker | the routing table _on_ 10.1.1.1 is likely ok as it can get to the net fine. |
| 02:16.02 | gsker | Well, port 80 forwarding works. But bzflag isn't connecgting.. |
| 02:16.19 | gsker | (I didn't have a telnet on this machine. I had to get a web browser.) |
| 02:16.26 | TimRiker | gsker: you may have some other rules earlier in the chain on 10.1.1.1 that are blocking the routing or perhaps you do not have tcp forwarding on? |
| 02:16.47 | gsker | I cleared the firewall entirely to test it and just put the forwarding in. |
| 02:17.51 | TimRiker | hmm. INPUT, OUTPUT, FORWARD all set to ACCEPT? and there is a 1 in /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward ? |
| 02:18.36 | gsker | No! That was it.!!!! It connected immediately! |
| 02:18.44 | gsker | Thanks a mil for all your help! |
| 02:18.57 | TimRiker | now you should be able to get to any public server. |
| 02:19.09 | TimRiker | including getting a list of servers. |
| 02:19.32 | gsker | So to tighten it back down? |
| 02:19.33 | TimRiker | welcome to the brave NAT world. ;-) |
| 02:19.41 | gsker | Can I go back to your original commands? |
| 02:20.04 | TimRiker | depends on what you want. incoming requests will still be blocked. but internal machines will have full outgoing access. |
| 02:20.34 | gsker | I'll go messing with my setup. |
| 02:20.52 | gsker | Thanks a mil. The kids were pretty impressed that I talked to you and they really appreciagte the game! |
| 02:21.09 | TimRiker | I run a full-open outgoing NAT setup here. That's fine for most home users. |
| 02:21.35 | TimRiker | might want to block outgoing port 139 etc to make spam worms life's harder. |
| 02:21.43 | JBdiGriz | as long as you don't have M$ machines internally which to pick up mail. |
| 02:21.51 | TimRiker | gsker: tell 'em I said hi. ;-) |
| 02:21.54 | gsker | nope. No MS. |
| 02:23.29 | gsker | changed my narc script to do nat and it all worked out. I'd never have figgered the kernel forwarding allow, though without you. |
| 02:23.58 | TimRiker | np. pass it on to the next person. ;-) |
| 02:30.21 | *** join/#bzflag morrison (~morrison@pcp05887281pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) |
| 02:30.26 | morrison | dang phone |
| 02:45.01 | TimRiker | brlcad: need to make SDL the "default" build and add require --without-SDL perhaps? that would force more testing. |
| 02:46.21 | brlcad | okay |
| 02:52.07 | *** join/#bzflag Tegan (~lyra@69.17.34.201) |
| 02:52.43 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy|Laptop (~Legoguy|L@c-24-13-129-67.client.comcast.net) |
| 02:53.00 | *** join/#bzflag phr0z3nn (UNIX@cpc3-duns3-3-0-cust171.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 02:54.00 | Tegan | hi |
| 02:56.21 | brlcad | hello |
| 02:59.03 | *** part/#bzflag sussudio (suss@sussudio.registered) |
| 03:06.14 | JBdiGriz | brlcad: Is SDL available in the 1.10.6 build? |
| 03:08.17 | brlcad | no, there is no sdl in the branch |
| 03:08.39 | brlcad | afaik, at least |
| 03:09.13 | JBdiGriz | Thanks, I thought someone was making a patch for SDL in the 1.10 tree, but I never saw an email or anything beyond that. |
| 03:14.21 | CIA-4 | BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/ (RecordReplay.cxx WorldWeapons.cxx bzfs.cxx commands.cxx): fixed replay vs. weapons, /record save <file> [secs] command, and more prep work for buffered file reading |
| 03:15.00 | *** join/#bzflag mebigfatguy (MAC@balt-209-150-116-214.dynamic-dial.qis.net) |
| 03:24.57 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor2221 (~JeffM@adsl-64-172-198-203.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 03:30.39 | CIA-4 | BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/ (WorldWeapons.cxx WorldWeapons.h bzfs.cxx): simply remove the weapons if replaying, no more if's about it |