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| 00:10.05 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || CVS HEAD is 2.1 UNSTABLE, use for new commits |
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| 00:30.00 | Teppic | So, is it really quiet is is the 'net' still spit? |
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| 00:36.06 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 00:42.01 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orange_away] by ChanServ |
| 00:48.30 | spldart | Inferno.servegame.org server.. Christopher Reeves Wheelchair... He's invincible cheat... not lag.. shots go through him over and over |
| 00:49.35 | spldart | In case there is multiple Port 5160 |
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| 00:58.22 | ThinkTiM | hey all - does anyone know where the spirals servers went? It's been a while since I've played and lots of things seem to have changed |
| 00:58.45 | wegstar | :) |
| 00:59.53 | ThinkTiM | btw my nick was 'nuebling' - not sure if anyone remembers me (SportChick? :) ) |
| 01:01.20 | wegstar | how much time has passed since you were last on? ;) |
| 01:02.29 | ThinkTiM | about 6 months |
| 01:03.07 | wegstar | :D |
| 01:03.29 | ThinkTiM | seems like the game hasn't changed much - but lots of new servers - and the old ones seem to have disapeared |
| 01:03.42 | wegstar | yep |
| 01:04.01 | ThinkTiM | which ones are your favourites? |
| 01:04.11 | wegstar | I haven't been on for a few months now ;) |
| 01:04.56 | ThinkTiM | ok guess we'll have to discover together |
| 01:09.09 | wegstar | ah... hepcat pillbox, the two castles my favorite maps |
| 01:09.56 | ThinkTiM | thx I'll give them a go |
| 01:11.10 | ThinkTiM | spirals was my favourite before - but it seems to be gone |
| 01:11.20 | ThinkTiM | and laser mania - but nobody seems to be playing it |
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| 01:21.55 | spldart | Spirals was my very first favorite BZ map about 18 months ago :-p |
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| 01:53.34 | spldart | Just playan a little BZ on silvercat/overlord... only red on GB with 3 greens trying to get up there... one has our flag... I'm juking and weaving trying to keep from getting shot, and prevent them from scoring. When, Lo and behold! My Slax download finishes and call my screens attention to the transfer and away from bzflag... |
| 01:53.50 | spldart | Needless to say I'm disgusted and our teams flag was captured |
| 01:54.18 | spldart | Oh the fortunes of war |
| 02:45.18 | wegstar | :P |
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| 04:26.22 | niceman2 | hi bzflag is a shitty game |
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| 04:26.55 | codergeek42 | niceman2: criticism only works when it's constructive. what's bad about it or what do you think should be improved? |
| 04:27.37 | niceman2 | it should be terminated and all source and binares erased |
| 04:28.15 | codergeek42 | ..or perhaps you're simply a stinky, smelly, overgrown and underintelligent troll... |
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| 04:37.30 | a_temp_dist | overgrown!? |
| 04:42.49 | cosmos | heh |
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| 10:57.32 | CBG | Watch out, Chris Reeves Wheelchair seems to be on the prowl again. |
| 11:00.45 | JonathanD | a cheat? |
| 11:04.08 | CBG | Yes, probably the biggest pita on bzflag. |
| 11:09.09 | spldart | he was making a nuisance of himself about 11 hours ago with a cheat client too.... Lifeless pita :) |
| 11:10.37 | JonathanD | yeah I saw him the other day |
| 11:10.40 | JonathanD | couldn't kill im |
| 11:10.41 | JonathanD | :( |
| 11:12.27 | spldart | that's the very cheat he was using last night heh |
| 11:13.25 | Skeeve | Couldn't we get rid of this pita? |
| 11:14.09 | Skeeve | I'm thinking about a cheat in my client that ignores hits coming from that callsign. |
| 11:14.40 | ToughShooter | Skeeve: We could get rid, it just requires difficult changes |
| 11:15.32 | spldart | I'd like to shove a big stick in the spokes of his tank hehe |
| 11:15.52 | ToughShooter | All basically needed is knowing where a player was at a random-given timestamp, the bullets vector and the hit-zone of tanks |
| 11:16.41 | ToughShooter | The hit-zone code is used for clientside hit-detection, so that could be ported easily to server |
| 11:17.01 | Mr_Molez | what use would that be ?? it cant account for lag, so its useless |
| 11:17.01 | CBG | What are you waiting for, ToughShooter? :) |
| 11:17.22 | ToughShooter | However I don't see information about where a player was for a given timestamp |
| 11:17.39 | ToughShooter | and that's critical in this case.. |
| 11:17.40 | spldart | useless?? CRW was not lagging so server side shot detect would have caught his cheat client |
| 11:17.58 | Mr_Molez | spldart: you can't gurantee there were no connection problems |
| 11:18.10 | Mr_Molez | perhaps a lag spike that lagstats was not quick enough to show |
| 11:18.17 | spldart | over and over? |
| 11:18.21 | CBG | He's just invincible right? No other cheats? |
| 11:18.22 | Mr_Molez | maybe |
| 11:18.29 | spldart | last night just invincible |
| 11:18.31 | ToughShooter | You would just need to use the timestamps of his position updates, however I don't have a clue where that resides |
| 11:18.36 | CBG | Yeah, that's easy. |
| 11:18.44 | spldart | everybodies shots went through him |
| 11:18.49 | CBG | I made an invincible tank by changing 2 lines of code, in the same file. |
| 11:18.53 | Mr_Molez | unless there is code to take into account lag, its useless |
| 11:18.57 | CBG | Try killing him with SR. |
| 11:19.16 | CBG | My 2 tiny changes made me invincible to SHOTS, NOT SR. |
| 11:19.21 | spldart | heh easier said than done |
| 11:19.35 | CBG | SR is a special case, it would take a few more lines to be invincible to that. |
| 11:19.38 | Skeeve | He is also invincible to SW |
| 11:19.39 | ToughShooter | What can be done right now is detecting hits based on the server side state. However that would change the game a lot |
| 11:19.40 | CBG | Still very easy to do though. :( |
| 11:19.46 | CBG | Skeeve: SW is counted as a shot. |
| 11:19.51 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 11:19.59 | CBG | Everything is except for SR, so Laser, GM, SB, etc. |
| 11:20.25 | spldart | If I get the opportunity I will try SR... I'm curious now |
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| 11:21.28 | CBG | There are a couple lines like: shot_hit_me == true (I changed true to false......) and then the very next line is like: me == dead so I changed the == to != .....) and voila, only SR can kill me. |
| 11:21.57 | spldart | cool :) |
| 11:22.12 | CBG | I should say, I only tested with players who knew I was cheating, on their server with their permission, then I deleted the client and the source code I had changed. |
| 11:22.23 | Mr_Molez | telling everyone how to cheat,, not cool |
| 11:22.26 | JonathanD | after backing it up on the moon. |
| 11:22.46 | JonathanD | hey, lets all have a match where no one can kill anyone!!! |
| 11:22.48 | CBG | Mr_Molez: It';s so easy. I have NO C or C++ knowledge and I could do it. |
| 11:22.49 | JonathanD | fun fun fun! |
| 11:22.56 | spldart | So you just changed a snippet of code then build the source huh |
| 11:23.06 | CBG | Yep. |
| 11:23.19 | JonathanD | CBG: from now on, everytime I see a cheater, I'll think of you ;) |
| 11:23.20 | ToughShooter | BZFlag was made for LAN.. |
| 11:23.24 | CBG | I changed 5 chars, all in one file. |
| 11:23.24 | JonathanD | cheat: CBG |
| 11:23.29 | spldart | LOL |
| 11:23.31 | CBG | JonathanD: :P |
| 11:23.45 | CBG | I gotta walk the dog, then cook lunch, bbl. |
| 11:23.57 | spldart | We only have 1 or 2 real cheaters in here so don't sweat it to much ;~) |
| 11:24.26 | ToughShooter | Doing something against cheating is often much harder than to cheat |
| 11:24.44 | JonathanD | 07:05 <+JonathanD> cheat:cbg |
| 11:24.44 | JonathanD | 07:05 <+scrabby> cbg has been marked as a cheater. |
| 11:24.46 | JonathanD | ;) |
| 11:24.56 | JonathanD | 07:05 <+ToughShooter> yay ;) |
| 11:24.57 | JonathanD | :D |
| 11:24.58 | JonathanD | lol |
| 11:26.14 | JonathanD | ToughShooter: as we saw with the "scrabby wars" aye? |
| 11:43.56 | ruskie | aaarrghhh bzflag blocked mybox again |
| 11:44.18 | ruskie | just after I got shot |
| 11:44.28 | ruskie | all X is frozen |
| 11:47.54 | Mr_Molez | is the groupdb option -HIDEADMIN or -HIDDENADMIN |
| 11:48.20 | Mr_Molez | HIDEADMIN :P |
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| 12:45.52 | ruskie | Manu, Pimpi any probs with the server?? |
| 12:46.01 | ruskie | ppl keep going NR at random |
| 12:46.49 | ruskie | and everyone is laggy |
| 12:47.34 | Mr_Molez | ruskie: problem with the service provider |
| 12:51.59 | Manu | ruskie: yes, the server is laggy |
| 12:53.01 | Manu | ruskie: but it isn't a server problem :/ |
| 12:53.07 | ruskie | :( |
| 12:55.11 | Manu | 283 ms lag for me :/ |
| 12:59.05 | Pimpi | hm, i had various connection problems to a couple of sites too |
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| 13:18.20 | usr01 | ~bzfquery bla.bla.com |
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| 15:57.43 | spldart | What is the dev's point of view on a public server advertised as a 'cheat server' for cheat clients? Prefer not? I don't remember the exact point of view you guys had on this issue, just curious. |
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| 15:59.32 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v menotume] by ChanServ |
| 16:00.31 | Mr_Molez | spldart: not allowed |
| 16:01.36 | spldart | I thought I remembered a "We would prefer not to have it but if it is advertised as a cheat server for cheat clients then it would be tolerated" mentality... But didn't remember. |
| 16:02.24 | Mr_Molez | they will alow cheat servers aslong as they aint advertised as such |
| 16:03.41 | spldart | The Daler server comes to mind |
| 16:04.22 | L4m3r | did that server ever get knocked off? |
| 16:04.41 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 16:05.27 | JeffM2501 | spldart, if it's advertised, we will ask the user to change the proto, if they do not, we reserve the right to block that server from listing |
| 16:05.44 | spldart | Thanks Jeff |
| 16:05.57 | spldart | Hadn't seen Daler on list lately |
| 16:06.43 | spldart | For a while there is was building a little infamy |
| 16:08.31 | spldart | I was thinking of playing with client code again and will keep my experiment server private and just shoot bots for fun :) |
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| 16:09.15 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 16:09.41 | menotume | ~seen brad |
| 16:09.45 | ibot | brad is currently on #bzflag #kierra #pillbox ##ducleague #silvercat #guleague ##essy, last said: 'how'd ya guess'. |
| 16:09.46 | menotume | oops |
| 16:09.47 | menotume | ~seen brlcad |
| 16:09.49 | ibot | brlcad is currently on #bzflag #brlcad. Has said a total of 36 messages. Is idling for 1h 24m 22s, last said: 'heh'. |
| 16:23.00 | CIA-6 | BZFlag: 03t-s * 10bzflag/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Re-do the height check. |
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| 17:17.43 | brlcad | yes minnow? |
| 17:18.16 | CIA-6 | ow |
| 17:19.24 | brlcad | ToughShooter: if it's going to cause false-positives, the new jump checks really should be disabled by default |
| 17:19.31 | brlcad | at least until the protocol is changed |
| 17:20.04 | brlcad | and minor detail, but naming vars IN_CAPS that aren't const or a macro is bad ju ju |
| 17:23.45 | brlcad | ~seen menotume |
| 17:24.00 | ibot | menotume is currently on #bzflag (1h 24m 26s) #kierra (1h 24m 26s) ##ducleague (1h 24m 26s) #silvercat (1h 24m 26s) #bz-inc (1h 24m 26s) ##essy (1h 24m 26s). Has said a total of 105 messages. Is idling for 1h 14m 13s, last said: '~seen brlcad'. |
| 17:25.33 | orthox | i have a question about cheat detection |
| 17:26.05 | JeffM2501 | or the lack there of? |
| 17:26.19 | orthox | would it be possible to effectively have a server process that acts like a client fully ghosting the shots and motions of the tank? |
| 17:26.41 | orthox | when they deviate based on various parameters you take action? |
| 17:26.56 | JeffM2501 | anyting is possible |
| 17:27.11 | JeffM2501 | our goal for 2.2 is to have the server keep a state |
| 17:27.17 | orthox | i don't think it would be practical to use for all tanks at all times, but something that admins could assign to a player and it would report probabiltity of cheating? |
| 17:27.18 | JeffM2501 | so it can better detect |
| 17:27.33 | JeffM2501 | oh it's fine to do it for everyone |
| 17:27.41 | JeffM2501 | the server should have a full gamestate just like the clients do |
| 17:27.59 | orthox | sounds like 2.2 will eliminate or make more obvious the cheats |
| 17:28.03 | JeffM2501 | right now we have some extended observer info that shows when the observed player devates somewhat from the norm |
| 17:28.30 | JeffM2501 | yes if we can get it done, having the server side state would make most of the vulgar cheats unworkable or easaly detectable. |
| 17:28.33 | orthox | with the client and the server keep gamestate, how is conflict resolution performed? |
| 17:28.41 | JeffM2501 | server is always right :) |
| 17:28.47 | orthox | good idea? |
| 17:28.53 | orthox | scratch the ? |
| 17:28.58 | JeffM2501 | you can't ever trust a client |
| 17:28.59 | JeffM2501 | ever |
| 17:29.08 | orthox | nope, its why i hate javascript |
| 17:29.29 | JeffM2501 | if they are not cheating then they won't have a difrerence, or there diff is just lag, and the server state is fine for them. |
| 17:29.32 | JeffM2501 | if they arnt/.... |
| 17:29.37 | CIA-6 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsPlayerStateVerify.cxx: minor, shouldn't use all caps on identifiers that aren't const or a macro, s/WG/hasWings/g |
| 17:30.18 | JeffM2501 | the big questions is just if somone will take the time to implement it. |
| 17:30.55 | orthox | so will the differences the server detects be an automatic thing or will server owners have te ability to configuire the max deviation? |
| 17:31.05 | JeffM2501 | dono yet |
| 17:31.09 | orthox | unfortunately c and c++ is not my bag |
| 17:31.19 | JeffM2501 | that's more stuff after it's implemented and tweaked |
| 17:31.28 | JeffM2501 | but realy it should be automatic and based on lag |
| 17:31.43 | JeffM2501 | but I'm sure there will have to be some sort of "fudge factor" |
| 17:31.51 | orthox | now if it were written in perl and tk then i could assist |
| 17:32.31 | orthox | i have a question on a totally different topic. |
| 17:32.33 | JeffM2501 | if it was writen in perl it'd be slow as hell :) |
| 17:32.50 | orthox | what are the differences between a box and meshbox that might kill rendering performance? |
| 17:32.56 | orthox | =) |
| 17:32.58 | JeffM2501 | nothing |
| 17:33.08 | JeffM2501 | a meshbox just allows the materials to be changed |
| 17:33.10 | JeffM2501 | a box does not |
| 17:33.17 | JeffM2501 | internealy they are all turned into the same base face |
| 17:33.30 | JeffM2501 | box is our old legacy stuff from before we had meshes |
| 17:33.31 | orthox | i had a world where i got 60-75 fps with boxes, switched to meshbox and the efps went to 0 |
| 17:33.56 | JeffM2501 | all you did was change the name? |
| 17:34.04 | JeffM2501 | didn't add any materials? |
| 17:34.07 | orthox | i tried just the name |
| 17:34.12 | orthox | and materials |
| 17:34.16 | JeffM2501 | it shouldn't do that |
| 17:34.19 | orthox | nothing helped. |
| 17:34.25 | JeffM2501 | wierd |
| 17:34.40 | JeffM2501 | what version? |
| 17:34.42 | orthox | i had over 1000 boxes and 1500 pyramids |
| 17:34.56 | orthox | latest cvs server, and the exe client |
| 17:35.09 | JeffM2501 | as I say internaly they are converted to the same type of base face object |
| 17:35.15 | JeffM2501 | so it's just a difrent way to define them |
| 17:35.23 | JeffM2501 | sounds like a bug |
| 17:35.23 | orthox | for windows. not sure of the version. i downloaded the client a few months ago |
| 17:35.33 | orthox | it was a worldsize of 6000 |
| 17:35.38 | JeffM2501 | should not matter |
| 17:35.45 | orthox | hmmm.. |
| 17:35.56 | purple_cow | C++ bag? |
| 17:35.57 | JeffM2501 | http://beta.bzflag.bz/builds/2.0.x/ |
| 17:36.05 | JeffM2501 | that has the current windows builds |
| 17:36.18 | brlcad | purple_cow: 13:31 < orthox> unfortunately c and c++ is not my bag |
| 17:36.28 | purple_cow | ah |
| 17:36.39 | JeffM2501 | does it look like one of those fuzzy crown royal bags? |
| 17:36.57 | JeffM2501 | but your geting paid for it right? |
| 17:36.58 | brlcad | or is C++ doing you again? :) |
| 17:37.25 | JeffM2501 | *snif* all the college kids are all grown up... |
| 17:37.29 | JeffM2501 | I'm so proud |
| 17:37.32 | purple_cow | haha |
| 17:40.30 | orthox | if you're interested i've setup the meshbox vs box servers. |
| 17:40.44 | orthox | massiv.icarusfallen.net:5154 is the good server with decent fps |
| 17:41.03 | orthox | massiv.icarusfallen.net:5158 is the server using meshbox instead of box |
| 17:41.03 | JeffM2501 | orthox, just report the bug on SF with the 2 maps |
| 17:41.10 | orthox | ah |
| 17:41.11 | JeffM2501 | then we can test at our leasuer |
| 17:41.21 | menotume | ~seen brlcad |
| 17:41.46 | ibot | brlcad is currently on #bzflag #brlcad. Has said a total of 43 messages. Is idling for 4m 48s, last said: 'or is C++ doing you again? :)'. |
| 17:41.46 | menotume | :P |
| 17:41.47 | purple_cow | wow |
| 17:41.51 | purple_cow | even for you, that's spelled badly |
| 17:41.53 | brlcad | unless you want to run a profiler on it and see where all the time is being spent |
| 17:41.53 | JeffM2501 | that was bad indeed wasn't it |
| 17:41.53 | JeffM2501 | I just read it |
| 17:41.57 | JeffM2501 | I have a band-aid on my finger, it's a pita to type :( |
| 17:42.12 | purple_cow | ooh, i hate that |
| 17:42.21 | JeffM2501 | cardboard cut from building legos :( |
| 17:42.50 | orthox | whats a profiler? |
| 17:43.08 | purple_cow | it's a thing, right, that profiles other things |
| 17:43.18 | JeffM2501 | an application that helps you find out how long code takes to run |
| 17:43.31 | JeffM2501 | to find out what parts are fast and slow |
| 17:43.32 | purple_cow | or how much memory it's using, or any number of other metrics |
| 17:43.37 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:43.44 | JeffM2501 | gives you a profile of the running app |
| 17:44.45 | spldart | Difference with 2.0.8 client on linux was 4 times the framerate with the boxes on 5154 over meshboxes on 5158 |
| 17:45.00 | spldart | But I think this bug has been around alot longer than 2.0.recent... |
| 17:45.14 | spldart | I seem to remember this from a ways back and several rev ago |
| 17:45.18 | JeffM2501 | well the person who would know, isn't realy working on it anymore |
| 17:45.50 | orthox | ah like "print" and "Time::Hires" in perl? |
| 17:46.57 | JeffM2501 | more then that |
| 17:47.02 | orthox | =) |
| 17:47.10 | JeffM2501 | it will do it at a system level |
| 17:52.06 | ToughShooter | brlcad: I was unable to create false positives with this check |
| 17:52.53 | brlcad | alas, neither was anyone else with the speed checks initially :) |
| 17:53.48 | brlcad | it only takes 0.001% false positive rate for it to be a MAJOR problem to users (that's likely to be several times a day per server) when you scale that up |
| 17:55.50 | ToughShooter | Yes, false positives are bad |
| 17:56.25 | ToughShooter | Should I ask for confirmation next time? |
| 18:04.46 | Mr_Molez | whats the picture storage url ? |
| 18:05.05 | JeffM2501 | images.bzflag.org |
| 18:06.20 | Mr_Molez | tankies |
| 18:08.01 | orthox | why would a saved world file include arc object when the one used to start the map doesn't? |
| 18:08.25 | JeffM2501 | it shoudln |
| 18:08.33 | JeffM2501 | unless you had an include file that did |
| 18:08.38 | purple_cow | cosmic rays, man |
| 18:08.40 | orthox | hmmm.... the plot thickens... |
| 18:08.54 | orthox | no include files. |
| 18:14.32 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 18:16.34 | JeffM2501 | wierd |
| 18:17.51 | *** join/#bzflag Matt123 (n=Matt13@stjch2-12-46-85-157.stjohncable.com) |
| 18:17.52 | brlcad | ToughShooter: no, i simply mean be careful about adding logic that punishes players .. keep an eye out for any false-positive reports, maybe get some other players to test it out to get a better variety of lag/fps/net situations |
| 18:18.05 | brlcad | not that you aren't being careful already, not the implication :) |
| 18:19.16 | brlcad | i just personally get rather uneasy when folks add code that relies on pinning down the player's position/state in the server when the server doesn't "really" know what it is right now still.. ;) |
| 18:21.22 | SportChick | good morning, all |
| 18:22.11 | JeffM2501 | the server can't even realy check relitive motion that well |
| 18:22.13 | JeffM2501 | due to lag issues |
| 18:22.41 | JeffM2501 | a client timestamp would help it compute more accurate delta motion |
| 18:22.49 | JeffM2501 | but then you have to trust the timestamp |
| 18:23.01 | JeffM2501 | and hello SportChick ;) |
| 18:23.16 | brlcad | handshaking the timestamp should help that, and correcting for drift with updates |
| 18:24.05 | Chestal | we already have (relative) timestamps |
| 18:24.45 | JeffM2501 | we have storage for them, I don't think they are used |
| 18:25.38 | Chestal | ah, btw., had a feature idea the other day: allow server to set an additional string per player which is optionally displayed in client scoreboard (along with update message) |
| 18:25.54 | Chestal | handy for plugins to display information, e.g. league info etc. |
| 18:26.12 | brlcad | you mean like.. the "e-mail" string? :) |
| 18:26.35 | Chestal | well, this is set in the client only. Granted, server hack coudl change that, but there is no update message |
| 18:27.22 | Chestal | JeffM2501: it#s sent in palyer update packets. curently only used in server for jitter calc I think |
| 18:27.55 | ToughShooter | I would like to see the e-mail string being ripped out |
| 18:28.18 | brlcad | i just mean that the server sends out info about players back that is displayed just as you suggest .. just that it's currently "called" the e-mail string (whereas it could conceivably be anything coming from the server) |
| 18:28.34 | ToughShooter | and replaced via some variable that is configurable with a plug-in, so we could tie webleague in |
| 18:28.37 | Chestal | brlcad: yes, exactly |
| 18:29.22 | Mr_Molez | to get a picture to show on ground its material matref http://linktourl end right ? |
| 18:30.33 | *** join/#bzflag zee056 (i=55d82cc2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-1a6a6e815a78676b) |
| 18:31.44 | Mr_Molez | hmm nope :( |
| 18:32.22 | ToughShooter | Mr_Molez: What do you want exactly? |
| 18:33.04 | Mr_Molez | just a picture on the ground |
| 18:33.16 | Mr_Molez | perferably 1 that covers the whole floor |
| 18:33.20 | ToughShooter | That's a special material... GroundMaterial |
| 18:33.26 | Mr_Molez | ahhh ok thnx |
| 18:33.32 | ToughShooter | Just give that a pic |
| 18:34.27 | *** join/#bzflag z[h]ero (i=55d82cc2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/session) |
| 18:34.58 | *** join/#bzflag amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-162-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:35.49 | ToughShooter | brlcad: I think I tested good enough, it even takes care of the secret double jumping abilty of tanks. What I can't do is having a wrong local time measurement, but I think the added error _should_ be enough |
| 18:37.28 | orange | 86.13.218.201 - cheat client from silvercat a moment ago |
| 18:37.36 | orange | for any server owners interested |
| 18:39.10 | *** join/#bzflag ATD_ (n=ATD@mn-69-34-50-141.dyn.embarqhsd.net) |
| 18:39.13 | SportChick | orange: user name? |
| 18:39.17 | ToughShooter | orange: What did he do? |
| 18:39.18 | z[h]ero | Hello. There is a famous cheater often around, he can't be hitted!! Can he be masterbanned? his callsign is something like "Christopher wheel chair" |
| 18:39.47 | orange | toxic head: OO without OO flag |
| 18:39.58 | Matt123 | Christopher Reeves Wheelchair i think z[h]ero |
| 18:40.09 | orange | not lag, because he jumped *up* through a walkway on babel and through it |
| 18:40.45 | ToughShooter | Hmpf, heard rather much recently about him :/ |
| 18:40.53 | z[h]ero | yes, him! |
| 18:41.17 | ToughShooter | There was already a discussion about him earlier that day here |
| 18:41.32 | z[h]ero | ok, what u guys did discussed about him? |
| 18:41.54 | z[h]ero | nearly usa day, or early european day? |
| 18:41.57 | ToughShooter | Well, a few players reported he was on a server and was being unable to be shot |
| 18:42.04 | ToughShooter | MEZ |
| 18:42.14 | z[h]ero | nyes, as i said, he can be hitted! |
| 18:42.28 | Mr_Molez | ToughShooter: the client shows the image has been downloaded but i dont see it anywhere |
| 18:42.37 | z[h]ero | nwhats mez time? usa or european? |
| 18:42.37 | ToughShooter | Eww :( |
| 18:45.11 | Mr_Molez | material name GroundMaterial addtexture http://images.bzflag.org/path/to/image |
| 18:45.11 | Mr_Molez | end |
| 18:45.35 | Mr_Molez | is that right ? |
| 18:45.42 | ToughShooter | Mr_Molez: I have done it correctly one time, let me search it |
| 18:46.24 | Mr_Molez | cool thanks :P |
| 18:47.27 | ToughShooter | Mr_Molez: http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/152342 |
| 18:47.38 | ToughShooter | That did it for me |
| 18:48.04 | Mr_Molez | oh exactly the same as i have :( |
| 18:48.07 | Mr_Molez | maybe its my client |
| 18:49.01 | *** join/#bzflag Skeeve (n=Skeeve@p508950A9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:49.10 | Mr_Molez | or maybe its a bad image im trying to load |
| 18:49.55 | ToughShooter | Testing my map locally.. |
| 18:50.42 | Mr_Molez | yes it was a bad picture |
| 18:50.44 | Mr_Molez | ToughShooter: thanks :) |
| 18:51.36 | ToughShooter | It doesn't work in 2.1 but in 2.0.x there is no problem |
| 18:51.56 | ToughShooter | Seems like we have another 2.1 bug :( |
| 18:52.51 | brlcad | ToughShooter: i'm sure you tested, there's just only so much testing one person can do.. ;) that gets down to that 0.001% problem.. you'd have to test 100,000 times to find that level of problem (and we've had problems that infrequent happen several times) |
| 19:09.29 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@ppp-67-126-240-44.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 19:12.10 | spldart | Belated thanks for the ip orange... |
| 19:12.53 | spldart | Yeah that Chris Reev Wheelch seems to really be getting around this last 24 hours z[h]ero |
| 19:44.58 | Mr_Molez | i know there is a way to make spawn zones, but is there a way to make zones where you cannot spawn, without them being noticable |
| 19:47.18 | *** join/#bzflag Teppic (n=Teppic@cpc2-cbly2-0-0-cust985.glfd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:04.12 | Skeeve | Where can I get bzflag 2.0.9 as source? |
| 20:04.28 | Skeeve | I don't see it on sourceforge (maybe I don't know where to look) |
| 20:04.56 | Mr_Molez | ~bzfcvs |
| 20:05.00 | Mr_Molez | ~bzcvs |
| 20:05.01 | ibot | cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.org:/cvsroot/bzflag co -P bzflag (this is for HEAD ie: 2.1 see also bz20cvs) |
| 20:05.10 | Mr_Molez | bz20cvs is 2.0.9 i think |
| 20:05.48 | Skeeve | I have 2.1 |
| 20:06.05 | Mr_Molez | ~bz20cvs |
| 20:06.07 | ibot | cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.org:/cvsroot/bzflag co -P -r v2_0branch bzflag |
| 20:06.10 | Skeeve | So bz20cvs instead of bzflag will give me 2.0? I'll try |
| 20:06.15 | Mr_Molez | do the above :P |
| 20:07.00 | Skeeve | I hate smileys :-( |
| 20:07.08 | spldart | :) |
| 20:07.11 | Mr_Molez | hehe |
| 20:07.42 | Skeeve | -P |
| 20:07.51 | Skeeve | Hmmm... |
| 20:09.08 | Skeeve | ~bz20cvs |
| 20:09.10 | ibot | cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.org:/cvsroot/bzflag co -P -r v2_0branch bzflag |
| 20:09.14 | Skeeve | Ah! |
| 20:10.52 | spldart | You did the same thing as Mr_Molez but you did this... *makes hand gesture in the air* |
| 20:12.04 | Mr_Molez | spldart: tehehehhehehehehehhehehehehhehehehheehe |
| 20:12.16 | Skeeve | I disabled graphical smileys |
| 20:12.42 | Skeeve | After that I could see the characters and not some stupid image |
| 20:14.23 | Skeeve | So I did the same but the result was different |
| 20:16.27 | spldart | stupid aol soaked smileys |
| 20:16.34 | JeffM2501 | emoticons are evil :) |
| 20:17.43 | Mr_Molez | anyone know how to make spawn zones easily for a circle :P |
| 20:19.57 | blast007 | Mr_Molez: server mod ;) |
| 20:20.26 | *** join/#bzflag Matt123_ (n=Matt13@stjch2-12-46-85-157.stjohncable.com) |
| 20:20.26 | Mr_Molez | hehe :P |
| 20:20.51 | blast007 | or lots of little spawn zones |
| 20:21.06 | JeffM2501 | plugin |
| 20:21.09 | blast007 | or that |
| 20:21.36 | JeffM2501 | plugin for it would be cake |
| 20:24.17 | brlcad | mm cake |
| 20:24.31 | brlcad | or better, pie |
| 20:24.35 | spldart | I like pie |
| 20:24.40 | JeffM2501 | everyone likes pie! |
| 20:27.02 | Skeeve | I prefer a Currywurst |
| 20:32.59 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@host121-153.pool8260.interbusiness.it) |
| 20:40.59 | CIA-6 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * 10GPx01/admin/auth/ (inc/userDatabase.h src/userDatabase.cpp): |
| 20:41.00 | CIA-6 | opencombat: add a verified/not verified state to the user records. |
| 20:41.00 | CIA-6 | opencombat: clean up some warnings. |
| 20:42.25 | Skeeve | Hmmm.. Jeff... Can we add an info how often someone was kicked for cheating? - Guess not because no reason can be given in a kick poll, right? |
| 20:42.40 | JeffM2501 | add it to where? |
| 20:42.53 | Skeeve | I saw the commit message above |
| 20:43.09 | Skeeve | "add a verified/not verified state to the user records." So I thought there is some sort of DB |
| 20:43.15 | JeffM2501 | read the project it's for |
| 20:43.16 | Skeeve | that could hold such info |
| 20:43.33 | Skeeve | "opencombat"? |
| 20:43.36 | JeffM2501 | bzflag keeps it's database in the fourms |
| 20:43.39 | Skeeve | Okay... Don't know that |
| 20:43.47 | JeffM2501 | it's not something the servers have direct access to |
| 20:43.52 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 20:43.53 | JeffM2501 | and yes it would be abbused all to heck right now |
| 20:44.25 | JeffM2501 | the only way the info would be helpfull for bzflag would be if it came from a reliable source |
| 20:45.19 | Skeeve | Yes. I agree. I thought this is a server specific thing |
| 20:45.30 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 20:45.40 | Skeeve | So each server stores it's own info. So simply forget |
| 20:45.41 | JeffM2501 | tho what you want is realy Tim's concept of Karma |
| 20:45.52 | JeffM2501 | for bzflag there are 2 sets of info |
| 20:45.59 | JeffM2501 | the server has a list of players |
| 20:46.15 | JeffM2501 | then the list server has the list of registered users stored in the fourms. |
| 20:46.26 | Skeeve | I see |
| 20:46.46 | JeffM2501 | the game server can check a players token against the list servers user list to know if they are globaly identified |
| 20:46.52 | JeffM2501 | tha'ts about it |
| 20:47.13 | JeffM2501 | the game server can't set any info for the global user database |
| 20:47.24 | JeffM2501 | and when a player leaves the game server deletes the player info it had |
| 20:47.29 | Skeeve | Thanks Jeff ;-) I get the picture ;-) |
| 20:47.35 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 20:47.36 | Skeeve | Everyone can set up a server |
| 20:47.42 | JeffM2501 | that they can |
| 20:47.55 | JeffM2501 | this test system requires everyone to login, even the servers |
| 20:48.05 | Skeeve | so COULD this server send info to the global server, anyone COULD fake cheat info for anyone |
| 20:48.08 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: That's not entirely correct |
| 20:48.16 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, I was sumarising ;) |
| 20:48.41 | Skeeve | I don't need it down to every bit ;-) |
| 20:48.42 | JeffM2501 | Skeeve, the list server can't trust any game servers |
| 20:48.48 | ToughShooter | The server keeps a record when a player joined with a token. That is because the global login isn't working very correct |
| 20:49.19 | JeffM2501 | it was a general overview ToughShooter not a step by step exact list of what can happen with all posibilitys |
| 20:49.26 | JeffM2501 | there was no need to go too low level |
| 20:49.56 | Skeeve | I like it how Jeff summarizes, becaus I can understand it |
| 20:50.23 | ToughShooter | Basically when the bzfs server wants to store such things, it needs to save it in own files, where the list server does not have access to |
| 20:50.42 | JeffM2501 | and he misses the point |
| 20:50.44 | JeffM2501 | oh well |
| 20:50.58 | JeffM2501 | personaly I don't like the bzflag system |
| 20:51.02 | Skeeve | Maybe this would be good to keep permanent cheaters (Chris R W) away |
| 20:51.11 | JeffM2501 | hence the atempt at a difrent way |
| 20:51.14 | brlcad | hmm a real user database in bzfs might be interesting |
| 20:51.26 | JeffM2501 | naw, any user could just make a new username |
| 20:51.34 | brlcad | maybe link against sqlite for persistent storage |
| 20:51.40 | brlcad | sure they could, they can do that now |
| 20:51.50 | brlcad | i mean just to track history/activity locally |
| 20:51.57 | JeffM2501 | the naw wasn't to your idea brlcad :) |
| 20:52.08 | JeffM2501 | sure we could keep more persistant data on the server |
| 20:52.09 | brlcad | naw :) |
| 20:52.12 | JeffM2501 | in a number of ways |
| 20:52.17 | JeffM2501 | none of it would be bad |
| 20:52.23 | Skeeve | Of courese they can, but they "burn" their callsign and loose any score they reached |
| 20:52.26 | JeffM2501 | I mean local users and groups |
| 20:52.37 | JeffM2501 | Skeeve, the hardcore cheaters would not care about the name |
| 20:52.43 | JeffM2501 | as there are 1000's of variations they can use |
| 20:52.54 | JeffM2501 | better to just fix the game so it dosn't allow those nasty cheats |
| 20:53.06 | Skeeve | So why didn't Chris already change? He's well known now |
| 20:53.15 | JeffM2501 | because he dosn't have to |
| 20:53.25 | JeffM2501 | none of the servers he plays on require global ID |
| 20:53.26 | Skeeve | You're right, Jeff, but in the meantime... ;-) |
| 20:53.31 | JeffM2501 | so there is no auth |
| 20:53.38 | JeffM2501 | if they did, then the servers could ID ban |
| 20:53.52 | JeffM2501 | if you don't have a global auth, then you don't have a single user to ban |
| 20:54.10 | JeffM2501 | the tech is there, server owners just don't want to do it |
| 20:54.40 | Skeeve | So the old problem *sigh* ;-) |
| 20:54.54 | JeffM2501 | even if we changed the system, we'd still have to get servers to use it |
| 20:54.57 | JeffM2501 | and they won't use the current system |
| 20:55.10 | brlcad | much older than your presence here ;) |
| 20:55.13 | JeffM2501 | thats why this test one makes EVERYONE log in :) |
| 20:55.26 | JeffM2501 | tho you don't have to verify right away |
| 20:56.33 | brlcad | i liked subspaces' "you get to play in the kiddie pool for a while" concept if you didn't want to or know how to reg |
| 20:56.41 | JeffM2501 | yes that's what I'm doing |
| 20:56.44 | brlcad | nothing new, but it was pretty intuitive |
| 20:56.52 | JeffM2501 | you sign up, you get set to unverified, you only get the kiddy servers listed |
| 20:57.03 | JeffM2501 | when you verify you get the rest of the servers |
| 20:57.08 | JeffM2501 | lets me do signups from in game |
| 20:57.13 | JeffM2501 | so you can get right in |
| 20:57.22 | JeffM2501 | then verify the e-mail later, and get access to the rest |
| 20:57.41 | brlcad | i forget.. once you reg'd, did they let you go back to the open/newbie servers or did you have to change callsign? |
| 20:57.59 | JeffM2501 | yeah you could go back to alphazone and just whump on people :) |
| 20:58.07 | orange | or teach |
| 20:58.12 | ruskie | hmm sounds nice |
| 20:58.12 | JeffM2501 | or whump |
| 20:58.18 | brlcad | heh teach.. |
| 20:58.21 | ruskie | and with a nice tutorial map.. |
| 20:58.25 | brlcad | fish |
| 20:58.27 | brlcad | barrel |
| 20:58.29 | JeffM2501 | the private rooms where great for teaching |
| 20:58.31 | orange | brlcad: you should have seen the red baron on hepcat the other day |
| 20:58.36 | brlcad | *bang* |
| 20:58.44 | JeffM2501 | you use a gun for that? |
| 20:58.49 | JeffM2501 | genades work much better |
| 20:59.02 | JeffM2501 | *plunk* |
| 20:59.06 | JeffM2501 | *thoom* |
| 20:59.11 | JeffM2501 | *sploosh* |
| 20:59.26 | orange | splat, splat, splat |
| 20:59.39 | JeffM2501 | then "what is that smell" |
| 20:59.45 | ruskie | don't forget to add some potatoes in nd a nice wire mesh to get fries with yer fish... |
| 21:00.49 | JeffM2501 | the concept I'm working with is basicly, everyone logs in, then the userdb network keeps just a set of users that are "on" in memory. And the game list server is just a read only node in the network |
| 21:01.00 | JeffM2501 | so it only lists to users with a current session ID for the network |
| 21:01.33 | JeffM2501 | done as a C++ app that can just run on servers |
| 21:02.22 | JeffM2501 | and then one node that links to mysql/web pages for web admin, etc.. |
| 21:02.34 | JeffM2501 | sends out the verify e-mail, and all that |
| 21:02.54 | ruskie | :) |
| 21:02.56 | ruskie | nice idea |
| 21:03.15 | JeffM2501 | if it works |
| 21:03.21 | ruskie | how do you define newb servers? or is that a server option? |
| 21:03.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah you'd have an option to "allow unverified" |
| 21:03.38 | JeffM2501 | it would not be the default |
| 21:03.52 | JeffM2501 | each server would also use a login |
| 21:04.07 | JeffM2501 | so we'd know who runs what servers |
| 21:04.27 | ruskie | I think it'll have the same prob as the current verified only thing... |
| 21:04.36 | JeffM2501 | bsicly if you want to run a public server, you need to be registeed |
| 21:04.55 | JeffM2501 | well the concept is, the project iself runs a couple noob servers |
| 21:05.07 | JeffM2501 | and the rest, the "Good" servers are all reg only ( the defalt ) |
| 21:05.20 | JeffM2501 | lets people get in easy, and rewards them for registration |
| 21:05.39 | JeffM2501 | you can't make it too hard to get into the first part of the game |
| 21:05.49 | ruskie | though I like the server has to be regged |
| 21:07.11 | JeffM2501 | as I see it it go, download game -> run game -> be asked for username/password/callsign -> be asked if you want to do tutorail -> be sent to tutorial server -> do tutorial -> be sent to kiddie pool -> play for a bit -> verify reg -> get access to the rest |
| 21:07.36 | ruskie | good idea... |
| 21:07.44 | JeffM2501 | if you bail out at any time, no big loss |
| 21:07.55 | brlcad | must pass a written and oral exam |
| 21:07.56 | ruskie | one less newb to have around... |
| 21:08.13 | ruskie | brlcad, that'd be nice to bad it won't happen :( |
| 21:08.43 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, no, just a literacy test :) |
| 21:09.40 | JeffM2501 | the big things it allows is, it means that there are no local user databases, there is some ID for every player, and admin teams are always verified. |
| 21:09.57 | JeffM2501 | makes it a lot more manageable |
| 21:10.04 | JeffM2501 | and dosn't realy take anything away from the player |
| 21:10.21 | ruskie | and which version is this planned for? |
| 21:10.30 | JeffM2501 | the MMOs, even the free ones have show that most people are willing to login, as long as you make it decently easy. |
| 21:10.34 | JeffM2501 | ruskie, none |
| 21:10.36 | JeffM2501 | it's a test |
| 21:11.16 | spldart | mmmMMMmmm the end of a VERY profitable days work. cyah's :) |
| 21:11.16 | JeffM2501 | I'm converting GPx's list over from bzflag's list to a new one |
| 21:11.20 | ruskie | so atm no tutorial or anything |
| 21:11.40 | JeffM2501 | at the momoent all you can do is log in to a server and get a map :) |
| 21:11.44 | JeffM2501 | then drive around |
| 21:12.21 | JeffM2501 | tho it's no longer top view only |
| 21:13.16 | JeffM2501 | I wanted to test the ideas brlcad and others put forward for the distributed net stuff |
| 21:13.46 | ruskie | erm... |
| 21:13.49 | brlcad | they were all lies |
| 21:13.51 | brlcad | damn lies |
| 21:13.57 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 21:14.17 | brlcad | i think i should probably go home :) |
| 21:14.20 | JeffM2501 | tho I'm not so sure if I should use this UDP only lib for server comuniction, it's just a lot easyer to |
| 21:14.29 | brlcad | i'm being unproductive in parallel |
| 21:14.38 | JeffM2501 | move yet? |
| 21:14.42 | brlcad | heh |
| 21:14.47 | brlcad | of course not |
| 21:14.51 | JeffM2501 | that sucks |
| 21:15.01 | brlcad | i keep pushing it back "just one more month" |
| 21:15.09 | JeffM2501 | just get it over with :) |
| 21:15.10 | brlcad | so everything sits half-packed |
| 21:15.23 | blast007 | JeffM2501: a friend of mine pointed this out when I was discussing the list server: http://www.open-game-protocol.org/ |
| 21:16.09 | JeffM2501 | sounds more like a reporting proto then a listing one |
| 21:16.31 | blast007 | hmm, yeah |
| 21:16.36 | brlcad | yeah, something like for making a universal gamespy |
| 21:16.55 | JeffM2501 | like so you could use the same ibot to query a bunch of difrent games |
| 21:16.58 | JeffM2501 | not a bad idea |
| 21:16.59 | ruskie | isn't there ggz already? |
| 21:17.13 | blast007 | has rcon stuff in there too |
| 21:17.17 | JeffM2501 | tho you could probalby just use RSS for that |
| 21:17.37 | ruskie | http://ggzgamingzone.org |
| 21:17.55 | blast007 | I see a reference to "Master Server Uplink" in the protocol definition |
| 21:18.19 | JeffM2501 | makes sense, as a master server would want the same info |
| 21:18.42 | JeffM2501 | I'm more concerened as to how the master servers comunicate |
| 21:18.48 | JeffM2501 | then the info to the actual game server |
| 21:19.09 | blast007 | yeah |
| 21:19.33 | blast007 | I just started playing around with a little C# console app w/ sockets |
| 21:19.48 | JeffM2501 | fun |
| 21:19.49 | blast007 | but right now it's just a very very stupid web server |
| 21:20.12 | blast007 | reads the input from the browser, then discards it and spits out a static page ;) |
| 21:20.16 | JeffM2501 | I'm just using raknet for the comuncations so I don't have to init another net system inside the client and server :) |
| 21:20.24 | blast007 | :) |
| 21:20.39 | JeffM2501 | I may use it's RPC and shared class stuff |
| 21:25.07 | JeffM2501 | hmm what's a good port to use |
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| 22:15.47 | amcnabb | JeffM2501, did you say that MsgAllowInput should be sent along with MsgAlive when you join a game, or was it some other message that it would get sent along with? |
| 22:19.03 | brlcad | AllowInput? |
| 22:19.41 | amcnabb | brlcad, we were talking about it on Friday. |
| 22:19.51 | amcnabb | You can allow/disallow players from moving or shooting. |
| 22:19.53 | brlcad | hmm, i missed that |
| 22:20.26 | amcnabb | JeffM2501 was saying that a server admin could find it useful. |
| 22:20.42 | amcnabb | I'm interested in it because you can implement a freeze tag style of game. |
| 22:20.55 | brlcad | as a means to limit keyboard input? mouse input? both/either? |
| 22:21.05 | JeffM2501 | I thought you were gonna hook it into the status? |
| 22:21.16 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, no as in telling them tey can't move, or can't shoot |
| 22:21.32 | brlcad | ahh, well then I did participate briefly in that talk :) |
| 22:21.33 | JeffM2501 | basicly makes it so the server can pause you |
| 22:21.37 | amcnabb | one sec |
| 22:21.43 | brlcad | it just wasn't called AllowInput iirc |
| 22:22.03 | JeffM2501 | but yes, send the message after alive, and default them to not moving at spawn |
| 22:22.07 | amcnabb | We can change the name. |
| 22:22.21 | JeffM2501 | I thought you were going to use the exiting status stuff |
| 22:22.36 | amcnabb | Does the status stuff get sent out all together? |
| 22:22.43 | JeffM2501 | dono |
| 22:22.54 | JeffM2501 | I thought you had looked into iit |
| 22:23.04 | amcnabb | I think state only shows up in the local representation (in Tank) |
| 22:23.07 | amcnabb | I could be wrong. |
| 22:23.16 | amcnabb | But I didn't see it anywhere else. |
| 22:23.18 | JeffM2501 | well whatever works |
| 22:23.40 | JeffM2501 | I'd call it MsgAllow, since we mad add more things that are not input based later |
| 22:23.46 | JeffM2501 | like chat, or whatnot |
| 22:23.59 | amcnabb | sounds good |
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| 22:52.15 | spldart | Silvercat ops and dev's... wierd thing just happened on Silver Overlord. I was defending out base and all of a sudden I blew up with server message 'I shot myself'.... I hadn't shot????? |
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