| 00:00.10 | CBG` | http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code#Graphical_BZFlag_Map_Editor ... Jude :) |
| 00:00.11 | JeffM | CBG`, I know your memory, mostly you just don't care about crap unless you have a chance to add some condisending remark to it. |
| 00:00.20 | JeffM | a_meteorite, like giving it a clean API |
| 00:00.26 | a_meteorite | like that |
| 00:00.27 | JeffM | that will make it slower |
| 00:00.30 | JeffM | not effiecent |
| 00:00.32 | JeffM | just more useable |
| 00:00.44 | CBG` | JeffM: pardon? Why the sudden freaking hostility? |
| 00:00.53 | JeffM | just stating a fact |
| 00:01.04 | JeffM | ahh efectivly |
| 00:01.10 | CBG` | you "know my memory"? |
| 00:01.12 | JeffM | everything has to be efective to work |
| 00:01.13 | a_meteorite | it's always gonna be a trade off between features and speed and development time |
| 00:01.22 | JeffM | it'll take some work |
| 00:01.24 | CBG` | What kind of fucked up fact is that? |
| 00:01.26 | a_meteorite | ... |
| 00:01.51 | JeffM | we'll have to see how the author does it |
| 00:02.10 | a_meteorite | it'll be interesting |
| 00:02.16 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:02.22 | JeffM | jude will do a good job at it |
| 00:02.28 | JeffM | he's got the background |
| 00:02.30 | a_meteorite | I'd like to see a this stuff get in the bzflag main branch, but it all depends how it works out |
| 00:02.34 | a_meteorite | *all this |
| 00:02.49 | JeffM | well the editor is it's own project, so it dosn't have to be in the main branch |
| 00:02.53 | a_meteorite | ahh |
| 00:03.13 | JeffM | the bot AI and the communication stuff is all that HAS to go into it |
| 00:03.24 | JeffM | the random world thing will probably end up changing the mainline somewhat |
| 00:03.36 | JeffM | if they do it like I'd do it |
| 00:03.41 | JeffM | they may do it diffrently then I tho |
| 00:03.53 | KTL | -may +will |
| 00:04.00 | JeffM | never kknow |
| 00:04.43 | KTL | btw, between all the applicants for gsoc bzflag, was there nobody from belgium? |
| 00:05.13 | JeffM | where they were from didn't realy stand out as an item in the list |
| 00:05.21 | JeffM | I can look tho, if you want |
| 00:05.30 | JeffM | I still have access to that I think |
| 00:05.50 | KTL | i just saw that the flyer i placed against a door |
| 00:05.55 | KTL | well some strips were gone |
| 00:06.34 | JeffM | there isn't an easy way to list them by locale |
| 00:06.50 | KTL | np |
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| 00:07.20 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 00:09.50 | brlcad | JeffM: I'm not sure what .bo is, but .bz hasn't been set up to be a mailing recipient (so yes to the mailing lists question, it "can", but doesn't) |
| 00:10.34 | JeffM | ahh |
| 00:10.52 | JeffM | wanted a way to have the image submiter send out to a list of people |
| 00:10.54 | JeffM | not just me |
| 00:10.57 | JeffM | well not me |
| 00:11.01 | JeffM | but a list of others :) |
| 00:11.32 | brlcad | blast007: surprising that dedicated was cheaper |
| 00:12.33 | brlcad | sending out to a list is a bit different -- it could send to some bcc'd list of folks pretty readily -- but they wouldn't have a means to reply to the list |
| 00:12.51 | JeffM | there is no need to repply to anything |
| 00:12.54 | JeffM | it's just notification |
| 00:13.00 | brlcad | setting up mail and/or mailing lists isn't a big deal either, just not been a pressing need |
| 00:13.16 | rob1n | ugh i have yet to set a mail server up, successfully |
| 00:13.17 | brlcad | yeah, that sounds like just sending, which should be pretty easy |
| 00:13.33 | JeffM | Erroneous was looking at seting it up, dunno how far he got |
| 00:13.39 | brlcad | could even use mailman, just making the return address some noreply address |
| 00:13.43 | JeffM | marathon died in the meantime. |
| 00:13.56 | brlcad | marathon? |
| 00:14.00 | brlcad | the game? |
| 00:14.01 | Erroneous | huh what? |
| 00:14.01 | JeffM | my dead server |
| 00:14.05 | brlcad | ahh |
| 00:14.07 | KTL | server |
| 00:14.09 | JeffM | they were all named after Bungie games |
| 00:14.13 | brlcad | hehe |
| 00:14.15 | JeffM | Oni, Myth, Marahon |
| 00:14.17 | brlcad | good game |
| 00:14.27 | Erroneous | I aliased imagesubmit or something to all the addresses on the list |
| 00:14.28 | JeffM | IIRC the windows one is Halo |
| 00:14.37 | brlcad | "tell you mother, you're not coming home!" |
| 00:14.51 | rob1n | ohhh |
| 00:14.57 | Erroneous | so if you need to edit the list it gets sent to, edit the alias |
| 00:14.58 | rob1n | that's why it was myth.opencombat.net |
| 00:15.06 | JeffM | yeah |
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| 00:15.20 | JeffM | tho it's real hostname was our work domain |
| 00:15.39 | JeffM | it's good and deaded now |
| 00:15.45 | rob1n | what happened? |
| 00:15.53 | JeffM | drive poop |
| 00:16.03 | rob1n | ah that sucks |
| 00:16.13 | JeffM | nothing horibly important on it |
| 00:16.19 | rob1n | i have a spare Dell server somewhere, but teh SCSI drives are too expensive to make it worth it |
| 00:16.21 | JeffM | I'll try to recover the data on it soon |
| 00:16.40 | JeffM | and brlcad has kindly offered to host my pitance of a need for it |
| 00:17.01 | JeffM | may do my own dedicated at some later date |
| 00:17.08 | JeffM | but I don't want to be rushed into it |
| 00:19.57 | brlcad | speaking of servers and server setup -- for those that have access to .bz already -- I'm mildly wondering if folks care much what the new "mirror" runs |
| 00:20.14 | Erroneous | if you run windows on it I will shoot you. aside from that, not too much |
| 00:20.18 | brlcad | hehe |
| 00:20.36 | brlcad | seeing you with a gun might be worth it, but no I won't go there |
| 00:20.38 | SportChick | I *like* freeBSD - it seems quite stable |
| 00:20.41 | Erroneous | prefer some bsd variant, solaris, or some linux variant in that order :) |
| 00:20.46 | bryjen | probabilites are low |
| 00:20.54 | Erroneous | but no strong preference |
| 00:21.20 | brlcad | solaris and I don't get along too well, too many years of a love-hate relationship that turned sour |
| 00:21.25 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 00:22.06 | brlcad | i mean, freebsd 6 or 7 will solve most of the current problems, however masked they may be |
| 00:22.51 | brlcad | but then there are some merits to heterogenity from a setup/testingperspective |
| 00:23.03 | brlcad | course there are homogenity merits too |
| 00:23.23 | menotume | language, brlcad |
| 00:23.24 | brlcad | especially since linux testing is pretty much a given already |
| 00:23.41 | brlcad | menotume: english and spanish, with a hint of italian -- thx ;) |
| 00:23.48 | Erroneous | could go for some other bsd variant for heterogeny |
| 00:24.06 | brlcad | like your variant that can't take shell vars :) |
| 00:24.09 | Erroneous | heh |
| 00:24.16 | Erroneous | that's only 'cause I refuse to install bash on it :) |
| 00:24.30 | brlcad | what was that one that kernel panic used to run? |
| 00:24.38 | brlcad | or was that a linux.. hmm |
| 00:24.47 | Erroneous | someone ran net on just about everything |
| 00:25.12 | brlcad | net lacks too much for my taste |
| 00:25.21 | Erroneous | lacks? |
| 00:25.22 | Erroneous | like what? |
| 00:25.24 | brlcad | i mean, if I needed something on my toaster, it's great |
| 00:25.27 | Erroneous | pkgsrc ftw! |
| 00:25.46 | brlcad | it's performance compared to both open and free sucks, for one |
| 00:26.25 | brlcad | you wouldn't think they'd be much different, but they have quite drastic memory manager differences among other details |
| 00:27.06 | Erroneous | uniprocessor performance is not that different iirc |
| 00:27.42 | Erroneous | 'course it's been a while since I looked |
| 00:28.18 | brlcad | i did some testing of libc a while back, malloc performance in particular -- might have shared some preliminary here -- but twas very interesting to see net vs open vs free vs linux vs os x |
| 00:28.53 | brlcad | some other testing of the scheduler and the memory subsystem |
| 00:30.57 | brlcad | seems to be, though, that dragonfly's main goal is to be the bsd alternative to mosix |
| 00:32.27 | brlcad | and/or some mosix/pvm/mpi clustering hybrid |
| 00:33.13 | Erroneous | yeah, part of the goal is to abstract stuff out to the point it can run on multiple physical systems |
| 00:33.54 | Erroneous | there are some neat side results of that too, and I've found it quite usable as a server box |
| 00:34.45 | brlcad | that's all great on paper until they get to distributed threads .. distributed shared memory in particular.. :) |
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| 00:52.20 | rob1n | anyone have any tips/recommendations for setting up a mail server? :\ |
| 00:57.36 | a_meteorite | rob1n: if you get any, pass them on to me |
| 00:58.47 | rob1n | a_meteorite, heh |
| 01:08.13 | menotume | rob1n: yes, use gmail |
| 01:08.35 | menotume | much easier to let someone else do all the work :) |
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| 01:16.52 | rob1n | menotume, well, i am using gmail right now -- the pop3 retrieval thing |
| 01:17.03 | rob1n | i just need a mail server for 2 accounts, max |
| 01:17.11 | a_meteorite | ick, pop3 |
| 01:17.11 | rob1n | brb |
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| 01:40.08 | blast007 | hrm, seems that one of the colocation places I had been looking at changed their price model... only $10 per RU now |
| 01:42.46 | brlcad | JeffM: did you try the "slam" technique |
| 01:42.57 | JeffM | no, cus it's not the drive platters |
| 01:43.01 | JeffM | it's the tronics |
| 01:43.06 | JeffM | it spins up fine |
| 01:43.18 | JeffM | just reports whackass data back from the controller |
| 01:43.32 | brlcad | hm, so no klickety clickety |
| 01:43.50 | blast007 | I have two that go klickety clickety :) |
| 01:43.56 | brlcad | eep |
| 01:44.00 | JeffM | nope no clicky |
| 01:44.04 | brlcad | not a good sign |
| 01:44.06 | JeffM | just no read |
| 01:44.18 | Erroneous | yeah, it's kinda funny. doesn't even return correct drive geometry |
| 01:44.19 | blast007 | whoever* |
| 01:44.32 | Erroneous | unknown sector size, uninitialized values for c/h/s |
| 01:44.41 | Erroneous | smart values are all crazy |
| 01:44.41 | brlcad | Erroneous: did you try cat'ing the raw device? |
| 01:44.56 | brlcad | don't need correct geometry to pull data off that |
| 01:45.03 | Erroneous | no...wouldn't have done much good, I don't know the right geometry to begin with |
| 01:45.11 | Erroneous | so no chance of pulling the filesystem back together |
| 01:45.45 | Erroneous | basically I'd have ended up with a 60gb flat file with 20mb of useful data, at an unknown location, and probably fragmented |
| 01:46.06 | brlcad | probably, but then that's something .. depends how important that data is :) |
| 01:46.12 | Erroneous | not that important :) |
| 01:46.20 | JeffM | a blog and some pix |
| 01:46.37 | brlcad | ah, hm |
| 01:46.47 | Erroneous | I was willing to rebuild the partition table from scratch, but not the whole filesystem (though I'd do it if I knew all the correct values) |
| 01:47.06 | Erroneous | not ours, a friend's |
| 01:47.07 | brlcad | archive might have the images.. |
| 01:47.11 | brlcad | ah |
| 01:47.26 | brlcad | then screw it |
| 01:47.27 | brlcad | *ahem* |
| 01:47.30 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 01:47.39 | JeffM | indeed |
| 01:48.11 | JeffM | I just told him to go host at godaddy |
| 01:48.13 | JeffM | :) |
| 01:48.15 | Erroneous | if I knew I could count on byte-aligned, defragmented data (which is probably a reasonable chance, on ext3) |
| 01:48.24 | Erroneous | I could probably pull the pictures off of it |
| 01:48.40 | Erroneous | but not really worth the effort |
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| 02:15.40 | jude- | hello all |
| 02:16.24 | DTRemenak | hello jude- |
| 02:16.43 | jude- | sorry about last night, with my connection cutting out all the time |
| 02:16.51 | DTRemenak | didn't notice |
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| 03:24.54 | jude- | programming question: I've noticed in BZFlag's DEVINFO file that C++ templates are to be used sparingly. Why is this? |
| 03:25.44 | jude- | From what I've seen, templates increase the size of the program, but not the speed |
| 03:26.53 | a_meteorite | templates make certain things less repetitive |
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| 03:32.12 | jude-_ | (I have no idea what was said in the last few minutes--my *#(^&@$! internet connection cut out) |
| 03:32.51 | a_meteorite | jude-: templates make certain things less repetitive |
| 03:33.11 | jude- | right, but why use them so sparingly? |
| 03:33.11 | a_meteorite | that's a pro... and the cons as you said |
| 03:33.21 | a_meteorite | maybe they want reduce the weight |
| 03:33.29 | jude- | specifically, I was wondering whether or not it would be permitted to use a smart pointer template class for some (most) of the non-trivial pointers in my GSoC project |
| 03:33.48 | jude- | (not sure if that got across the wire) |
| 03:33.48 | a_meteorite | yeah, I saw it |
| 03:33.51 | jude- | kk |
| 03:34.00 | a_meteorite | I'm not a dev, but sparingly would imply a few uses... so why not? |
| 03:34.44 | a_meteorite | imho, things like templates and other shortcuts should be used whenever they make sense... if it makes sense, go for it |
| 03:34.48 | a_meteorite | that's what they're for :) |
| 03:34.48 | jude- | comcast gets flaky around this time of day |
| 03:34.48 | jude- | well, my smart pointer class would be used a LOT |
| 03:34.49 | jude- | but it would be one of maybe three template classes |
| 03:34.59 | jude- | indeed |
| 03:36.06 | a_meteorite | iirc, gcc only builds the code needed to be used when you use templates... so it doesn't (couldn't?) build *every* possible variation. that's what templates are for to begin with. :) |
| 03:36.28 | a_meteorite | still a c++/gcc noob though |
| 03:38.02 | jude- | that's a relief |
| 03:38.02 | jude- | so, it's sort of like declaring a template class, and then defining different types of that class with specific classes instead of generics? |
| 03:38.40 | a_meteorite | yes, from what I understand |
| 03:38.56 | a_meteorite | it only builds for the types that you use |
| 03:39.06 | jude- | all righty then |
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| 03:57.33 | brlcad | jude-_: it's more a statement of fact than a position on templates, though there is a hint of a (strong) inclination to not just use templates for the sake of templates -- there needs to be a good technically-motivated beneficial reason |
| 03:58.17 | brlcad | smart pointers by themselves would be a somewhat weak motivation in itself |
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| 03:58.51 | brlcad | there are several placed throughtout the code, though, where templates are used |
| 03:59.06 | jude-_ | the reason why I'd use smart pointers is to speed up the debugging phase of development--it eliminates the need to ensure that all memory is freed |
| 04:00.19 | brlcad | which is an arguable "benefit" in itself (one that I happen to agree with, but it's arguable nonetheless) |
| 04:00.20 | jude-_ | the only area where they'd need to be used in my project is in the 3D scene manager |
| 04:00.55 | brlcad | if they're isolated to a particular class or two, or not exposed in an interface, it shouldn't really matter much as it then just becomes implementation detail |
| 04:01.23 | jude-_ | what do you mean by "exposed in an interface?" |
| 04:01.43 | jude-_ | as in, a return value? |
| 04:02.05 | jude-_ | or, an argument in a setter? |
| 04:02.06 | brlcad | i mean, i don't think most would have strong heartache over smart pointers, but to play devil's advocate -- it's arguably bad practice to not pay attention to your memory allocations and free'ing, particularly for time-sensitive apps (like a game) |
| 04:02.38 | jude-_ | this is true, but if I removed the smart pointers, I'd just insert new and delete statements in the same places |
| 04:03.08 | jude-_ | the only performance drag in my smart pointer class is the increment and decrement of a reference count |
| 04:04.54 | brlcad | inserting new and delete statements could very well indicate a different problem in itself :) |
| 04:05.12 | jude-_ | well, I mean only in areas where the memory *should* be freed (i.e. when the reference count becomes zero) |
| 04:05.21 | jude-_ | or created |
| 04:05.26 | brlcad | why you'd want to be pulling up heap allocations in certain contexts, for example |
| 04:06.20 | jude-_ | the way I'd use them in my project is just to store 3D and texture-specific data regarding a world object |
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| 04:06.37 | brlcad | reference count is fairly specific to smart pointers in themselves, and not the only viable approach to managing memory, dealing with object ownership, etc |
| 04:07.05 | brlcad | issues that often dissolve with more care on ownership and class structuring |
| 04:07.34 | jude-_ | at this point, I could get away with not using them pretty easily |
| 04:08.03 | brlcad | again, not to belabor the point -- your code is pretty isolated and probably not a problem regardless |
| 04:08.45 | jude-_ | my main concern with not using them, however, is that when additional features are added after the initial release, they may complicate the memory management scheme |
| 04:08.59 | brlcad | the other question is whether this is your own smart pointerness or using stl's |
| 04:09.17 | jude-_ | I'm using my own. It's pretty simple |
| 04:10.00 | jude-_ | it can take either a pointer to a block of memory or another smart pointer in its constructor and keep a reference count |
| 04:11.27 | jude-_ | but again, the only reason I really need to use them is to speed up development time |
| 04:12.15 | jude-_ | and the performance loss would be almost unnoticeable, because most likely the editor would spend 80% of its time waiting for user input |
| 04:13.21 | jude-_ | with the remaining 20% of its time split between rendering, creating/destroying dialog boxes, loading/saving levels, starting/stopping itself, etc |
| 04:13.23 | brlcad | hm, i'd be (only slightly) more concerned about something home-grown when there's auto_ptr |
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| 04:14.09 | brlcad | even snagging shared_ptr from tr1 would probably be my personal preference, but then that even further questions the overall benefit |
| 04:15.13 | jude-_ | but the STL classes are much bigger and implement functionality I don't need |
| 04:15.17 | brlcad | performance isn't really a concern, unless you've profiled and know it's a problem .. ;) |
| 04:15.34 | jude-_ | heh. true :) |
| 04:16.06 | jude-_ | I haven't really used auto_ptr, though. is it any good? |
| 04:16.57 | brlcad | it's got it's great uses, and downsides .. as an auto_ptr though ... it's pretty agreeable :) |
| 04:17.41 | brlcad | what auto_ptr doesn't give you is reference counted smart pointers -- it gets you scoped allocation |
| 04:17.53 | brlcad | shared_ptr's give you reference counted pointers |
| 04:18.04 | jude-_ | I guess shared_ptr is what I'm looking for |
| 04:18.09 | brlcad | (which is why it's part of the tr1 c++ standard extension, and included as part of boost) |
| 04:18.55 | jude-_ | the way I have the 3D class framework set up, a lot of the commonly-used methods in member class instances are facade-ed into a container class |
| 04:19.18 | jude-_ | making it much easier to, say, get the vertex data from a 3D object without accessing its mesh class |
| 04:20.04 | brlcad | sounds reasonable ;) |
| 04:20.08 | jude-_ | a smart pointer would be needed here if I wanted to have a separate class do some memory management on the 3D object's data |
| 04:20.40 | brlcad | er, "have a separate class do some memory management"? |
| 04:20.48 | jude-_ | maybe I could have a flyweight class assign a 3D object a smart pointer to vertex data that was already allocated |
| 04:21.03 | jude-_ | i.e. to prevent multiple, identical meshes in memory |
| 04:21.30 | jude-_ | sorry, bad wording |
| 04:21.39 | brlcad | a "geometry manager" class could conceivably deal with all of that too |
| 04:22.03 | brlcad | letting everyone just use references to mesh/data/whatever that it retains "ownership" of |
| 04:22.15 | brlcad | a data broker |
| 04:22.33 | brlcad | one of several approaches, for that matter |
| 04:22.36 | jude-_ | but then a smart pointer would make sense there, as well |
| 04:22.54 | jude-_ | i.e. memory could be freed automatically once no one is using it |
| 04:23.37 | brlcad | that is true, but .. somewhat trivial too :) |
| 04:24.15 | jude-_ | how so? |
| 04:24.41 | brlcad | i mean, conceptually, there will/should? very likely be a concept of objects existing or not, being removed or deleted, etc |
| 04:25.05 | brlcad | it's a rather confined scope project .. not entirely arbitrary interactions |
| 04:25.37 | brlcad | if they're deleted, that data manager would be informed, and would delete |
| 04:26.14 | brlcad | don't get me wrong, i'm still not pressing for not using them |
| 04:26.31 | brlcad | i don't particularly have a problem with them, though you should ask another dev or two to get their feeling |
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| 04:26.43 | jude-_ | kk |
| 04:27.25 | brlcad | but that said, I do think the reasoning should be well thought out -- not just from the approach you have in mind memory-management wise, because there is almost always perfectly viable alternative approaches |
| 04:28.03 | jude-_ | my issue with a data broker scheme is that, by ensuring that unused data is freed at runtime, the broker would need to check every single reference once an object is deleted to determine if data can be freed. This is slow (O(n)), whereas a smart pointer would be fast (O(1)) |
| 04:28.21 | jude-_ | especially with big worlds |
| 04:28.33 | brlcad | no no |
| 04:29.34 | brlcad | that's my point, you can entirely structure the code and call structure so that the data broker doesn't need to know/care about the users |
| 04:30.06 | jude-_ | ahh. I misinterpreted your previous statements |
| 04:30.21 | brlcad | people have made do without smart pointers in this light for decades without making O(n) checks of any sort :) |
| 04:30.58 | jude-_ | either way, though, the concept of reference-checking is still in play |
| 04:32.37 | brlcad | there's a concept of data flow and ownership -- that may require knowledge/tracking of references or it may not, depends on how it's architected and design considerations |
| 04:34.50 | brlcad | e.g. if i didn't care about how much memory it's going to use, i could simply let some data manager just wait till shutdown to free memory .. a bit extreme and wouldn't be a great design, but hopefully shows the point -- one of dozens of possible approaches that wouldnt' involve any tracking whatsoever |
| 04:36.22 | brlcad | g'damn! .. that's the third ssh intrusion attempt in 5 minutes! freaking annoying |
| 04:36.45 | jude-_ | my framework as it stands now uses both concepts--it has a data broker that stores one instance of each unique texture and mesh, and creates 3D objects using references to pre-loaded data, or loads it on the fly. It doesn't track who owns what, but rather just assigns a smart pointer to the meshobject, and allows the data to be freed by the smart pointer |
| 04:38.39 | jude-_ | basically, the data broker employs various file loaders which conform to a fixed interface to load data from the disk and assemble it into an internal form that can be stored in RAM and be referenced by meshobjects |
| 04:39.37 | jude-_ | all the data broker does method-wise is create meshobjects either using references to already-loaded data or by first requesting the data from a file loader and storing it, and then giving out a reference |
| 04:39.39 | brlcad | what about just adding a "delete this thing" interface to the database, and letting the app inform it based on interface actions what should disappear as actions are invoked by the user (and leaving anything else to app shutdown) |
| 04:40.27 | jude-_ | can you give an example? |
| 04:42.08 | brlcad | well, not a good one without making several assumptions probably about how you're managing the data |
| 04:42.43 | jude-_ | could you try anyway? |
| 04:43.00 | jude-_ | (i.e. go ahead and make assumptions) |
| 04:43.00 | brlcad | but the general idea would be something like .. user deletes box, box is deleted from data manager |
| 04:43.23 | brlcad | that is, the box mesh or whatever is associated |
| 04:43.32 | jude-_ | the mesh itself gets deleted? |
| 04:43.48 | brlcad | well, why not? |
| 04:43.56 | brlcad | no more box |
| 04:43.58 | jude-_ | what if there are other boxes? |
| 04:44.21 | brlcad | what if there are? |
| 04:44.22 | a_meteorite | undo! :) |
| 04:44.54 | jude-_ | well, in my system, there is only one box mesh, and meshobjects store data on how that mesh should be oriented when its rendered (i.e. position, angular orientation, etc) |
| 04:44.57 | brlcad | other boxes wouldn't necessarily have to use the same mesh -- by box I mean an arbitrary 6-sided closed polysolid |
| 04:45.32 | jude-_ | so, you can have one mesh, and six meshobjects referencing that mesh and describing how it should be rendered to represent that object |
| 04:45.44 | jude-_ | s/six/arbitrary number |
| 04:46.32 | jude-_ | i.e. this way, you can have 1,000,000 boxes rendered in the scene, but only one mesh and 1,000,000 orientations |
| 04:46.54 | jude-_ | and in my system, the orientation class is very cheap memory-wise |
| 04:47.38 | jude-_ | you can have multiple box meshes, but that would be pointless unless the mesh itself was different from the stock box mesh |
| 04:47.46 | brlcad | i gathered as much -- again, just a tradeoff in design, and there are even ways to still keep the "one copy" |
| 04:49.30 | jude-_ | the use of smart pointers comes into play in that it decentralizes and simplifies the determination of whether or not a mesh is in use |
| 04:49.51 | brlcad | in that case that you mentioned, the user action would just delete then one of the six/arbitrary meshobjects that was selected for delete |
| 04:50.26 | brlcad | if you're trying to simply justify the reasoning for smart pointers, please stop :) |
| 04:50.44 | brlcad | i don't care, i like smart pointers -- good stuff |
| 04:51.08 | jude-_ | I'm not trying to simplify the justification--I'm trying to clarify how they are used |
| 04:51.11 | jude-_ | in my project |
| 04:51.17 | brlcad | i'm just trying to get you to see that they're not the only way in the least, it's all just how it's structured -- you can get the same end via different (perfectly viable) alternatives in just about every situation |
| 04:51.28 | jude-_ | I know |
| 04:52.09 | brlcad | good, just making sure ;) |
| 04:52.16 | jude-_ | I'm just arguing for my specific implementation |
| 04:52.51 | brlcad | well therein the problem.. i don't want to argue |
| 04:52.55 | jude-_ | I see |
| 04:53.26 | brlcad | it's a moot argument -- they are rather different approaches that can be taken, both with their strong merits |
| 04:53.33 | jude-_ | I guess I was worried that I'd have to rewrite the entire thing if the devs were hostile toward template classes |
| 04:53.34 | brlcad | neither being a stellar winner |
| 04:53.47 | brlcad | well, that was why I said run it by a couple of the others |
| 04:53.59 | brlcad | if someone has religion, then it matters |
| 04:54.32 | brlcad | looking through the svn history and seeing who wrote the statement in the DEVINFO file would be a good starting point |
| 04:54.48 | brlcad | as well as any associated commit comment |
| 04:55.04 | jude-_ | I'm not obsessed with smart pointers--I can use another method if need be |
| 04:55.16 | jude-_ | kk |
| 04:55.43 | brlcad | hey, i think if it helps your design and doesn't complicate the comprehension of your code, that it's a good thing |
| 04:56.32 | brlcad | even better will be to see what you actually mean via commits, as the code will speak way more than any explanations via conversation |
| 04:57.14 | purple_cow | what statement in the DEVINFO file? |
| 04:57.19 | jude-_ | kk |
| 04:57.31 | brlcad | purple_cow: that templates are used sparingly |
| 04:57.37 | brlcad | sounds like something you might write actually :) |
| 04:58.20 | purple_cow | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:58.57 | purple_cow | nothing? |
| 05:00.33 | brlcad | hm, sounds like tim might have religion on it -- commit comment was "no exceptions" :) |
| 05:00.40 | jude-_ | I figured it was timriker |
| 05:00.57 | brlcad | though we've put in a bunch of template code since "2003-09" |
| 05:01.41 | brlcad | heh |
| 05:01.50 | brlcad | r3229 | davidtrowbridge | 2003-08-23 02:43:29 -0400 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003) | 2 lines |
| 05:01.55 | brlcad | preliminary learner flaming |
| 05:02.50 | brlcad | (bzdb pointer junk) |
| 05:03.48 | a_meteorite | ~bz20svn |
| 05:03.50 | ibot | [bz20svn] http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_SVN and svn co https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag/branches/v2_0branch/ bzflag |
| 05:06.58 | jude-_ | well, since the 3D renderer isn't the first thing that needs to be coded anyway (at this point, I'm just doing it for fun before GSoC starts), I'll just wait to continue coding it and ask around about the use of smart pointers |
| 05:07.18 | jude-_ | thanks for your input, though, brlcad :) |
| 05:18.33 | jude-_ | DTRemenak, that's a relief :) |
| 05:18.38 | purple_cow | brlcad: and don't you forget it |
| 05:19.42 | brlcad | :) |
| 05:19.55 | purple_cow | I don't mind smart pointers, but they're not a panacea |
| 05:19.56 | DTRemenak | just preferential though, don't have a problem if someone else wants to use them |
| 05:21.02 | jude-_ | well, besides what I have said before, my use of smart pointers *does* make the code easier to read |
| 05:22.44 | DTRemenak | smart pointers are not necessary for readability :) |
| 05:23.03 | jude-_ | heh--I could always write the entire project in one line of C++, too |
| 05:23.03 | DTRemenak | i.e. you can have readable code with traditional pointers |
| 05:23.15 | jude-_ | this is true |
| 05:23.31 | jude-_ | and I still have to consider the data broker approach |
| 05:23.33 | DTRemenak | and in fact, smart pointers can obscure the mechanics of the memory management :) |
| 05:23.51 | DTRemenak | for many apps, that might not matter a whole lot |
| 05:23.59 | DTRemenak | for others, it might |
| 05:24.24 | jude-_ | DTRemenak, I'm probably going to limit their use to managing the 3D renderer's data |
| 05:25.12 | DTRemenak | and depending on the design of your renderer, that might make sense. that's a call for you to make :) |
| 05:25.33 | jude-_ | DTRemenak: well, I'm porting it from JOGL code |
| 05:25.38 | brlcad | personally, I think they just lead to weak coding patterns/practice in general, though they certainly can be used quite "smartly" |
| 05:26.17 | jude-_ | but don't worry, I'm not entailing all its deficiencies :) |
| 05:27.00 | jude-_ | in fact, the only reason the JOGL code exists at all is because Java was the required language |
| 05:27.03 | brlcad | that does explain where the smart pointers come from :) |
| 05:27.21 | jude-_ | lol |
| 05:27.37 | brlcad | java encourages many design patterns and practices that often .. suck .. when applied to c++ and vice-versa |
| 05:27.45 | DTRemenak | I'm afraid you won't find much love for java here :) |
| 05:27.51 | jude-_ | I don't like it that much either |
| 05:28.03 | DTRemenak | (might have been better to not mention it actually, and let the code stand on its own) |
| 05:28.15 | brlcad | i don't mind it, it's got some great power, and some great downsides :) |
| 05:28.53 | jude-_ | DTRemenak: don't worry--I didn't write it like it was Java |
| 05:28.57 | DTRemenak | and using "it was originally java!" as an excuse for something is likely to get you a little pile of verbal abuse :) |
| 05:29.19 | brlcad | or outright noodle whippings |
| 05:29.21 | DTRemenak | or a big pile if jeffm's around |
| 05:29.44 | brlcad | heh, he's not drank the cool aid, eh? |
| 05:29.45 | jude-_ | DTRemenak, that didn't occur to me |
| 05:29.45 | DTRemenak | just as a little hint/caution :) |
| 05:29.56 | DTRemenak | good :) |
| 05:30.06 | jude-_ | it didn't occur to me to use smart pointers to make the port effort easier |
| 05:30.36 | jude-_ | it occured to me because it offered an interesting solution to memory management |
| 05:30.50 | DTRemenak | in that case, you *really* shouldn't have mentioned it, 'cause that's what I thought right away :) |
| 05:31.19 | jude-_ | huh? |
| 05:31.50 | DTRemenak | you were talking about smart pointers as a design decision, and then randomly threw out "well, I'm porting it from JOGL code" :) |
| 05:32.03 | brlcad | not as bad as a coworker friend of mine that's also into gcc development.. writing "c++" apps that are basically massive template programs that take several minutes per source file to compile so that it can shave 2 seconds off a run-time |
| 05:32.06 | jude-_ | and I'm saying the two are not connected |
| 05:32.13 | DTRemenak | yup, that's fine :) |
| 05:32.28 | DTRemenak | I was just saying that you would not have had to say that, had you not said the second part in the first place |
| 05:32.36 | DTRemenak | hah! does that sentence confuse you enough? :) |
| 05:32.58 | jude-_ | yeah, I know |
| 05:33.04 | jude-_ | that's why I said |
| 05:33.05 | jude-_ | it |
| 05:33.12 | DTRemenak | it's fine, forget it :) |
| 05:33.35 | brlcad | basically that you referred to another language that can imply a whole bag of reasoning and design patterns that arguably have little/no justification in c++ |
| 05:33.56 | jude-_ | sorry--I did not mean to make that implication |
| 05:34.03 | jude-_ | because that connection does not exist |
| 05:34.20 | brlcad | i.e. it invites the opening up of a can of worms (that you didn't intend to do, or probably dont' want to do) ;) |
| 05:34.49 | jude-_ | no can of worms for me |
| 05:34.52 | brlcad | mm.. thems good eatn |
| 05:36.01 | jude-_ | but seriously, I used smart pointers in this case because to me it simplified the code |
| 05:36.12 | jude-_ | and sped up development |
| 05:36.25 | jude-_ | not because I have some sort of perverted affection for java |
| 05:36.29 | DTRemenak | heh |
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| 05:37.02 | DTRemenak | you don't need to justify it...it is a valid methodology. if you've considered others and decided on that one, that's cool. |
| 05:37.30 | jude-_ | well...the code is still young. I may change it; in fact, I'm writing it so it can be easily changed |
| 05:37.43 | jude-_ | if the need presents itself |
| 05:39.02 | jude-_ | In fact, when I get around to writing the 3D renderer in the editor, it will *probably* change to match the data model |
| 05:39.20 | jude-_ | ...which will not use smart pointers |
| 05:40.22 | jude-_ | I wanted to know if it was okay to use them if they were needed at the end of the day |
| 05:41.48 | jude-_ | my current effort in porting the JOGL code is just for fun, because technically I can't start until May 31st. |
| 05:42.01 | jude-_ | s/start/start GSoC coding |
| 05:42.36 | jude-_ | multi-star? |
| 05:42.38 | DTRemenak | may 28, and I don't think that's really a hard date...more of "you should start by this date" |
| 05:42.47 | jude-_ | ah |
| 05:43.11 | DTRemenak | probably |
| 05:47.27 | DTRemenak | according to the acceptance page, it should be "published in your first weekly progress report" |
| 05:48.25 | DTRemenak | which is actually more like the zeroth progress report, since it should happen before coding starts |
| 05:48.38 | jude-_ | right, hence my curiosity :) |
| 05:50.51 | DTRemenak | I suppose you are looking for "more information on the exact method for providing these reports...", which you'd have to get from brlcad, I assume |
| 05:51.29 | jude-_ | that would be good to know |
| 05:51.41 | DTRemenak | but I'm not in charge of that :) |
| 05:51.57 | L4m3r | yes DTRemenak? :D |
| 05:51.59 | brlcad | jude-_: i'm setting up a vehicle of sorts for that, blame/contact/look to me |
| 05:52.39 | jude-_ | alrighty then |
| 05:52.47 | jude-_ | when do you expect it to be up? |
| 05:53.15 | DTRemenak | L4m3r: list of milestones for the soc project...should be sometime soon (within the next week or so). apparently brlcad is still arranging things though, so my glances were somewhat preemptive |
| 05:53.29 | brlcad | twenty dollar bills stapled to the back are optional |
| 05:53.33 | DTRemenak | brlcad: heh, like I'd be able to read any of their handwriting... |
| 05:53.54 | DTRemenak | (no offense if one of y'all is an expert calligrapher or something) |
| 05:58.20 | brlcad | you should be thinking about the milestones |
| 05:58.20 | DTRemenak | but in my experience, engineering types tend to not have the clearest handwriting :) |
| 05:58.20 | brlcad | the guidance has already been given, i'd just be reiterating |
| 05:58.20 | brlcad | the mechanism is all that's not defined |
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| 05:58.43 | DTRemenak | particularly those which rely heavily on computers :) |
| 05:58.43 | L4m3r | at least we're not doctors |
| 05:58.43 | jude-_ | DTRemenak, you're right about that :) |
| 05:58.44 | jude-_ | L4m3r, that's a scary thought :) |
| 05:58.44 | L4m3r | and hell, our handwriting is one thing, but I've noticed that engineering types typically have a better grasp on the mechanics of the english language :P |
| 05:58.44 | L4m3r | and to me, that's more important anyway |
| 05:58.44 | jude-_ | indeed |
| 05:58.44 | jude-_ | what's particularly interesting is that English has little structure to begin with :) |
| 05:58.45 | jude-_ | and we engineering types STILL understand it well :) |
| 05:58.45 | DTRemenak | rules make sense to engineers. particularly convoluted, highly exceptional, situational rules |
| 05:58.45 | jude-_ | this is true |
| 05:59.45 | brlcad | which sometimes boggles my mind how some entirely gloss over certain rules .. like grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. ;) |
| 05:59.52 | DTRemenak | I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A, as in neighbor or weigh, or derived from greek or celtic, or during the construction of gerunds which do not drop the e, and including after C in inflections of words ending CY, derived from latin, or suffixed in -ier or -iety after a root ending in c. |
| 05:59.52 | DTRemenak | fun fun |
| 05:59.52 | jude-_ | exactly! |
| 05:59.53 | brlcad | :) |
| 06:01.50 | L4m3r | I'm not gonna lie, guys, the first few weeks are gonna be tough |
| 06:02.27 | jude- | how so? |
| 06:02.35 | L4m3r | I believe it is week eight. I have to get through nine, ten, and finals after gsoc starts |
| 06:02.55 | jude- | ouch |
| 06:02.57 | DTRemenak | eep |
| 06:03.34 | L4m3r | I'll do as much as I can this coming weekend |
| 06:03.43 | a_meteorite | 3 day weekend! woot! |
| 06:03.54 | L4m3r | not for me. :| |
| 06:03.59 | L4m3r | waaaait a minute |
| 06:04.05 | L4m3r | it might be! |
| 06:04.10 | L4m3r | I just might have sunday off |
| 06:04.22 | L4m3r | but I work Monday |
| 06:04.39 | L4m3r | my weekend is Friday and Saturday, heh. I normally work sunday. |
| 06:08.52 | DTRemenak | ooh, 6-day weekend |
| 06:09.35 | L4m3r | heh, don't you love it when woot has exactly what you need? :P |
| 06:11.11 | a_meteorite | nice |
| 06:11.35 | a_meteorite | I love it how woot sometimes ridicule their own products |
| 06:11.46 | L4m3r | they're either really good, or crap. the jury is still out |
| 06:12.28 | L4m3r | woot and the product's manufacturer website claim the frequency response tops out at 11kHz, while all the reviews seem to say the max is 23 |
| 06:13.00 | L4m3r | depends on your age |
| 06:13.16 | jude- | I think its 20 to 20,000 hertz |
| 06:13.16 | L4m3r | up to 11kHz is probably fine if you're over 30 :P |
| 06:13.18 | brlcad | L4m3r: i'll give you my weekend if you do the work that i'll probably still end up doing over it :) |
| 06:13.34 | L4m3r | :P |
| 06:14.47 | L4m3r | class isn't so bad, but work gets to be a drag during the week |
| 06:15.17 | jude- | L4m3r, same here |
| 06:15.36 | L4m3r | 3 days in a row until 10pm... before I had sunday/monday and wed/thurs |
| 06:15.46 | jude- | ouch |
| 06:16.05 | jude- | they cut hours at my job because all the snowbirds went home |
| 06:16.19 | brlcad | speaking of work -- if anyone is job hunting or knows someone that is, and they have computer graphics programming expertise and/or strong c/c++ programming skills otherwise .. please contact me via pm |
| 06:16.35 | jude- | I'll pass it on to the local LUG |
| 06:16.41 | brlcad | or via e-mail |
| 06:17.04 | a_meteorite | comp sci? |
| 06:17.06 | L4m3r | heh, my one capable geek friend already got a job as a sysadmin someplace |
| 06:17.34 | a_meteorite | L4m3r: you taking compi sci? |
| 06:17.40 | jude- | a_meteroite, no, just a LUG (www.tfug.org) |
| 06:17.48 | a_meteorite | oh |
| 06:18.03 | L4m3r | a_meteorite: sorta? |
| 06:18.09 | DTRemenak | heh, sorta? |
| 06:18.12 | L4m3r | I'm doing more hardware stuff right now |
| 06:18.20 | DTRemenak | woot, ee |
| 06:18.22 | L4m3r | classes listed under both CS and EE |
| 06:18.23 | brlcad | full time employment, rather technical and competitive .. requires strong programming, graphics, and math skills or some combination thereof |
| 06:19.04 | brlcad | </spammage> |
| 06:19.12 | jude- | lol |
| 06:19.15 | DTRemenak | woot, spammage |
| 06:19.45 | jude- | DEAR SIR/MADAM: I HAVE RECENTLY RECEIVED $4 MILLION AND NEED YOU TO PUT IT IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT |
| 06:20.18 | jude- | and all that jazz |
| 06:20.29 | a_meteorite | jude-: you're rich! |
| 06:20.37 | a_meteorite | I feel sorry for the saps that believe that stuff... |
| 06:20.46 | DTRemenak | jude-: but you're in tucson, no need for international transfers! |
| 06:20.58 | jude- | lol |
| 06:21.04 | brlcad | that's how I made my first four million |
| 06:21.16 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 06:21.21 | jude- | muh-ney |
| 06:22.50 | L4m3r | heh, you know, my roommate has some website he uses for "passive income" |
| 06:23.07 | jude- | google ads or similar? |
| 06:23.09 | L4m3r | I've only heard him talk about it briefly. he says it nets him about $3 a day |
| 06:23.25 | DTRemenak | grand a year, not bad |
| 06:23.34 | L4m3r | I am honestly curious. How much you wanna bet it's a clicktrap? :P |
| 06:25.26 | jude- | I'll wager $3 |
| 06:25.32 | L4m3r | lol |
| 06:30.52 | blast007 | heh |
| 06:31.29 | L4m3r | should be interesting to see what happens with the advertising industry |
| 06:32.15 | L4m3r | with google having so much of it now, and with the fact that it's becoming increasingly difficult to get good revenue from ligitimate ads |
| 06:32.31 | jude- | soon they'll probably have ads in your dreams |
| 06:32.35 | blast007 | they're going to put a chip in our heads |
| 06:32.35 | blast007 | heh |
| 06:32.53 | blast007 | jude-: you read my mind |
| 06:33.01 | blast007 | or maybe, that's what they WANT us to think! |
| 06:33.10 | jude- | see, telepathy already exists! They just need to exploit it |
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| 06:40.33 | jude- | StarCraft II! woot! |
| 06:54.15 | a_meteorite | ~dns newton.bzfx.net |
| 06:54.22 | a_meteorite | :\ |
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| 06:57.50 | a_meteorite | is there any possible explanation why lynx would use a different originating IP than bzfs? |
| 06:58.39 | a_meteorite | aha, I figured it out |
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| 07:41.00 | daxxar | DTRemenak: I'm in the middle of my exams, so I can't really start up before they're done. |
| 07:41.24 | daxxar | I have 5 exams in the period 18th - 29th of may |
| 07:43.08 | DTRemenak | that's fine then, schoolwork comes first |
| 07:43.41 | DTRemenak | milestones should be pretty easy to come up with too |
| 07:44.05 | daxxar | Are milestones supposed to be published at the 28th? |
| 07:44.16 | DTRemenak | "before, on, or soon after" |
| 07:44.21 | daxxar | Ah, okay. :) |
| 07:45.19 | DTRemenak | google says coding officially starts the 28th. there's plenty of flexibility though; definitely exams are higher priority :) |
| 07:46.02 | daxxar | Yeah, I wish they were done already, but there's not much I can do ;) |
| 07:46.18 | DTRemenak | yup, not exactly in your control ;) |
| 07:47.02 | daxxar | Luckily, the last two are pretty easy. OOP (Java) and introduction to IT |
| 07:47.44 | DTRemenak | heh, intro to it...there's a filler class if I ever saw one :) |
| 07:48.16 | daxxar | It's obligatory course for my degree, I was supposed to have it last semester, but couldn't take the exam due to some mixup |
| 07:48.33 | DTRemenak | ah :) |
| 07:48.47 | daxxar | It's like some theory, HTML, CSS, JSP and SQL. |
| 07:48.51 | daxxar | All very basic. ;-P |
| 07:49.39 | daxxar | I'm looking forward to next semester or the one after that, 'cause then I'll probably have time to take some fun courses like algorithms and datastructures. :-D |
| 07:49.50 | DTRemenak | algorithms ftw! |
| 07:51.40 | daxxar | I don't think algdat is too advanced, but it's a nice way to learn a bit about it. I wonder if I can pick the more advanced algorithm-classes when I'm technically taking a degree in electronics. ;P |
| 07:51.40 | daxxar | They have stuff on like parallellization and such too, looks neat. |
| 07:52.36 | DTRemenak | electives! :) |
| 07:55.12 | daxxar | Hehe, yeah. :D |
| 07:55.18 | daxxar | Use them wisely ;) |
| 07:55.35 | DTRemenak | or, use them liberally, and take 5 years for a 4 year degree :) |
| 07:55.35 | daxxar | But I want to spend some time on specializing in digital electronics, so I'll probably get some algorithms via that |
| 07:55.50 | daxxar | It's a 5 year degree already ;) |
| 07:55.56 | DTRemenak | 6 years then! |
| 07:56.11 | daxxar | Hehe, yeah, ;D |
| 07:57.21 | DTRemenak | gives you an extra year to do soc again too ;) |
| 07:57.32 | daxxar | ;-) |
| 07:57.52 | daxxar | How many volumes are Art of Computer Programming? |
| 07:58.23 | DTRemenak | mmm...depends how many he's finished. theoretically six, I think. volume 5 is a work in progress last I checked. |
| 07:58.36 | daxxar | Hm, seems they have it in various editions, one 4-volume (?) and one big one |
| 07:59.21 | daxxar | ".. If you think you're a really good programmer... read [Knuth's] "Art of Computer Programming"... You should definitely send me a resume if you can read the whole thing." - Bill Gates. |
| 07:59.36 | DTRemenak | it's quite dense, somewhat theoretical, and heavy on machine language. also extremely informative and enlightening, and very well explained. |
| 08:00.00 | daxxar | x86 asm? |
| 08:00.05 | DTRemenak | no, MIX |
| 08:00.09 | DTRemenak | a fictional machine |
| 08:00.11 | daxxar | Aha |
| 08:00.29 | DTRemenak | though future versions will use MMIX, the (also fictional) RISC variant |
| 08:00.37 | daxxar | hehe ;-) |
| 08:01.46 | DTRemenak | Knuth has extensive details at his website... http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/taocp.html |
| 08:02.14 | DTRemenak | checks from him for finding errors are extremely highly prized |
| 08:03.23 | daxxar | hehe |
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| 15:28.41 | SportChick | anyone around? |
| 15:28.51 | SportChick | DTRemenak, brlcad? |
| 15:28.55 | CBG | I'm pretty much a sphere, why? |
| 15:29.06 | SportChick | one moment, CBG - I only want to do this once |
| 15:29.47 | SportChick | Chestal, purple_cow, blast007, Manu,menotume, trepan, ts, uso, Pimpi, Pumpernickel, Thumper_, ping |
| 15:29.59 | purple_cow | yes? |
| 15:30.20 | SportChick | purple_cow: got a minute? gonna send you an invite |
| 15:30.40 | purple_cow | I suppose |
| 15:31.05 | SportChick | L4m3r |
| 15:31.20 | Chestal | aua |
| 15:33.20 | SportChick | purple_cow: please join |
| 15:41.38 | ts | SportChick: pong |
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| 16:04.52 | Manu | SportChick: ? |
| 16:05.21 | SportChick | Manu: accept your invite please |
| 16:05.24 | SportChick | oh good |
| 16:05.26 | SportChick | TimRiker: pingy |
| 16:05.29 | SportChick | JBdiGriz: too |
| 16:05.59 | ts | ¡Buenos dÃas Manu! |
| 16:06.16 | Manu | SportChick: what invite? |
| 16:06.27 | SportChick | hrm, I will send again |
| 16:06.29 | Manu | ah.. :) |
| 16:06.33 | Manu | no need :) |
| 16:06.44 | SportChick | TimRiker: please accept your invite? |
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| 17:48.05 | Erroneous | heh |
| 17:48.37 | ts | Hmm? |
| 17:55.49 | SportChick | heh |
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| 17:57.23 | SportChick | ~chestal++ |
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| 18:54.52 | Winny | Can some BZBB admins tell "Col CLinker" about his sig? It is about 4 inches tall, and I run at 1680x1050... |
| 18:55.45 | CBG | blast007 already did, iirc. |
| 18:56.00 | donny_baker | Winny: yes, blast did |
| 18:56.25 | Winny | his pervious one? or this current one with 9000 userbars? |
| 18:56.51 | CBG | Not sure, he'd been pinged and I'm sure he can let you know. |
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| 18:57.25 | TASAIRES | Hola Manu |
| 18:57.34 | TASAIRES | Hello to Rest to Peoples |
| 18:57.35 | Manu | hola TASAIRES |
| 18:57.45 | CBG | Hi |
| 18:57.51 | TASAIRES | nos vemos por tos los sitios |
| 18:57.56 | Manu | :) |
| 18:58.13 | TASAIRES | hello CBG |
| 18:58.50 | TASAIRES | Manu cual es la lengua de este canal?? o es internacional |
| 18:59.04 | Manu | inglés |
| 18:59.14 | Manu | principalmente ;) |
| 18:59.18 | TASAIRES | ok thank Manu |
| 18:59.23 | Manu | np :) |
| 18:59.23 | TASAIRES | jejeje |
| 19:01.43 | TASAIRES | Manu estoy desde uncliente de irc por windows, IceChat |
| 19:01.44 | Manu | you uso irssi |
| 19:01.45 | TASAIRES | dia, meti la pata, instala el debian 4.0. y me creo un fallo en la bios |
| 19:02.14 | Manu | como todo esto es "out of topic" puedes conectar a #linuxclub ;) |
| 19:02.22 | TASAIRES | Manu y por intentar recuperar la carga normal, llege hasta reinstalar todo |
| 19:02.41 | TASAIRES | ok |
| 19:02.51 | TASAIRES | es en este mismo servido?? |
| 19:02.56 | Manu | si |
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| 19:52.36 | brlcad | ciao tupone |
| 19:52.46 | tupone | hola brlcad |
| 19:52.50 | tupone | how is going? |
| 19:53.16 | brlcad | busy |
| 19:53.29 | tupone | with brlcad? or just in general? |
| 19:56.54 | SportChick | ciao tupone :) |
| 19:58.04 | tupone | hi SportChick |
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| 20:05.26 | L4m3r | TimRiker: ping |
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| 20:27.35 | brlcad | tupone: yes :) |
| 20:29.32 | tupone | I see you are busy :) |
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| 20:50.40 | SportChick | sgk284: hehe, wrong channel ;) |
| 20:50.50 | SportChick | sgk284: ##essy ;) |
| 20:50.51 | sgk284 | hey sporty :) |
| 20:50.53 | SportChick | hi |
| 20:50.55 | sgk284 | lol thanks |
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| 21:15.43 | Winny | today we saw this presentation in class, you could tell it was old |
| 21:15.43 | Winny | because it said |
| 21:16.15 | Winny | "I am advancly skilled at the internet" |
| 21:16.23 | Winny | Erroneous, vastly* |
| 21:16.53 | Winny | whoa |
| 21:16.59 | Winny | stuipd tab complete |
| 21:16.59 | Erroneous | huh? |
| 21:17.01 | Winny | ugh... |
| 21:17.04 | Erroneous | heh |
| 21:17.04 | Winny | Isorry |
| 21:17.09 | Winny | meant to say err* |
| 21:17.10 | JeffM | he meant to say err.. |
| 21:17.32 | Erroneous | sgk284: this is ALSO the right channel :) |
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| 21:40.45 | sgk284 | lol Erroneous, thanks :) |
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| 22:32.03 | jude- | hello all |
| 22:32.27 | Winny | hello |
| 22:33.03 | Constitution | hi |
| 22:33.15 | jude- | hello Winny, Constitution |
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| 22:47.54 | biggeruniverse | Is it me, or is the forum overrun with children? |
| 22:48.24 | jude- | which forum? |
| 22:48.45 | biggeruniverse | the bzflag forum |
| 22:49.02 | Winny | don;t do it! |
| 22:49.06 | Winny | you'll never be the same! |
| 22:49.15 | biggeruniverse | it's like walking into a grade school! |
| 22:49.40 | jude- | which sub-forum? |
| 22:49.42 | Winny | "lol i made dis cul map dat u shud host 4 mii cuz im a cop at deeze many serverz!!!" |
| 22:49.56 | Winny | pretty muchs sums it up |
| 22:50.38 | Winny | :-) |
| 22:51.38 | Winny | trying to syphon away some of the annoying ones to my forum, but it isn't working :\ |
| 22:53.10 | jude- | Actually, aside from that quote, I haven't seen anything else out of the ordinary. Which forum did you pull that from? |
| 22:53.36 | jude- | I guess you're doing a pretty good job :) |
| 22:55.18 | jude- | wait--how is it that JeffM is a leftenant, but everyone else is a private first class? |
| 22:55.31 | biggeruniverse | he's cooler than everyone else |
| 22:55.42 | CBG | Not everyone is a PFC |
| 22:55.47 | Erroneous | there are people with various ranks |
| 22:56.12 | biggeruniverse | jude- it seperating out the proletariat |
| 22:56.16 | jude- | lol |
| 22:56.18 | biggeruniverse | *it->it's |
| 22:56.49 | jude- | how do you advance your rank? |
| 22:57.23 | biggeruniverse | be one of the few old-timers that didn't leave |
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| 22:57.43 | Erroneous | impress us with your maturity and activity levels, simultaneously :) |
| 22:57.52 | biggeruniverse | oh, and be involved too, which I never was |
| 22:59.17 | jude- | I see |
| 22:59.17 | Erroneous | it's basically arbitrary |
| 22:59.18 | jude- | so, the admins advance the rank? |
| 22:59.18 | Erroneous | yup |
| 22:59.20 | Erroneous | it used to be based on posting activity, but that caused a lot of useless posts |
| 22:59.22 | biggeruniverse | that's the deal |
| 22:59.25 | Erroneous | so we decoupled it |
| 22:59.35 | biggeruniverse | I don't think useless posts have stopped |
| 22:59.49 | Erroneous | biggeruniverse: the really useless ones have slowed down a lot |
| 23:00.00 | Erroneous | therer are still a lot of young people craving attention, sadly |
| 23:00.07 | biggeruniverse | I beg to differ |
| 23:00.21 | Erroneous | um, you only ever saw the ones we didn't delete :) |
| 23:00.29 | biggeruniverse | so you think |
| 23:00.46 | Erroneous | indeed I do |
| 23:01.41 | biggeruniverse | This isn't worth arguing over |
| 23:01.56 | Erroneous | indeed it is not |
| 23:05.14 | biggeruniverse | you better not |
| 23:05.27 | Erroneous | heh, too late :) |
| 23:05.28 | rob1n | ~seen I_Died_Once |
| 23:06.08 | ibot | i_died_once <n=I_Died_O@c-68-85-11-148.hsd1.ga.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 25d 23h 39m 24s ago, saying: 'the one asking about the thing that auto bans people for repeeted TK's'. |
| 23:06.58 | biggeruniverse | well, you can put it back now |
| 23:07.44 | Erroneous | why would I do that? |
| 23:08.19 | Erroneous | really, jude- had a point...too many pfc's |
| 23:09.00 | rob1n | wow i just went back into the bzflag forums after about 2 years |
| 23:09.01 | jude- | well, I was just curious (not really trying to point out much of anything)... |
| 23:09.06 | Erroneous | and you, and some others, are reasonably mature, contributing folks, who really should have had a rank before |
| 23:09.11 | rob1n | there are some STUPID people in there |
| 23:09.26 | rob1n | they must be friggin 4 years old, the way they act... |
| 23:09.56 | biggeruniverse | rob1n: that's what I was saying! |
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| 23:12.09 | jude- | there we go |
| 23:13.05 | biggeruniverse | gee. "Reasonably mature" I should hope so- I have kids of my own... |
| 23:14.05 | Erroneous | "reasonably mature" is a state of mind, not of years :) |
| 23:14.34 | Erroneous | and it was a minimum requirement applied to "you and some others", not a comment on you specifically |
| 23:14.50 | JeffM | jude-, others have custom ranks too :) |
| 23:15.47 | jude- | lol--you don't HAVE to.. |
| 23:15.55 | Daveman | ¬_¬ |
| 23:15.58 | Erroneous | you're not the only one :) |
| 23:16.14 | jude- | I know, but there are only four of us :) |
| 23:16.15 | Erroneous | makes it all the more special :) |
| 23:16.28 | Erroneous | and maybe bzflag will participate again in future years |
| 23:16.34 | jude- | that would be cool |
| 23:16.42 | Erroneous | 'course we'd hope by then that some of you would have dev ranks ;) |
| 23:17.11 | jude- | that would also be cool :) |
| 23:17.17 | Winny | 1/2 of my posts are spam :) |
| 23:17.24 | Erroneous | Winny: so true, so true |
| 23:17.28 | Winny | :D |
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| 23:20.29 | JeffM | you should at least set em to the lowest dev rank |
| 23:21.11 | JeffM | it would |
| 23:21.16 | JeffM | that's why i said at least :) |
| 23:21.25 | Erroneous | they didn't seem to have a good logo around though |
| 23:21.31 | L4m3r | speaking of ranks, can I fix mine? |
| 23:21.39 | JeffM | L4m3r, what is yours? |
| 23:21.52 | Erroneous | major general, iirc |
| 23:21.53 | JeffM | Erroneous, use the warrant officer images |
| 23:21.58 | L4m3r | whatever the "mere mortal" rank is for my postcount |
| 23:22.07 | Erroneous | 'tis not done by postcount |
| 23:22.07 | JeffM | L4m3r, pfc? |
| 23:22.13 | Erroneous | not anymore |
| 23:22.17 | JeffM | IIRC I set you to a gen |
| 23:22.31 | Erroneous | you're a general because you're an admin |
| 23:22.33 | L4m3r | I don't like to flaunt it, but I realized in my dealings with PETER that that would not really have been fair had we gotten into it |
| 23:22.36 | JeffM | the very model of a modern major general |
| 23:23.20 | JeffM | yeah the generals are used for admins |
| 23:23.27 | Erroneous | L4m3r: you're welcome to change it to whatever you want |
| 23:23.34 | Erroneous | as far as I'm concerned |
| 23:23.37 | L4m3r | ah, ok |
| 23:23.38 | JeffM | your warning was fine |
| 23:23.46 | JeffM | and youd idn't have to "get into it" in plublic |
| 23:23.55 | JeffM | and youd didn't |
| 23:23.56 | JeffM | so all good |
| 23:24.00 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 23:24.05 | L4m3r | just after the fact |
| 23:24.21 | JeffM | he has been in the wrong for a while now, he'll learn |
| 23:24.34 | L4m3r | if he had been nasty about it, it would not have been fair to go "Don't argue with the admins, BANINATED" |
| 23:24.45 | L4m3r | since he probably didn't know |
| 23:24.48 | JeffM | I told you he's been warned a number of times |
| 23:24.51 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 23:25.00 | JeffM | and he's been told there are more admins |
| 23:25.05 | JeffM | tho I'd hope you'd just slience him |
| 23:25.09 | Erroneous | the list of admins is public |
| 23:25.09 | JeffM | instead of a ban |
| 23:25.16 | Erroneous | if people care, they can read it |
| 23:25.22 | L4m3r | yeah, it was an exaggeration ;) |
| 23:25.23 | JeffM | indeed |
| 23:25.25 | Erroneous | otherwise they better damn well behave themselves :) |
| 23:25.27 | JeffM | figured |
| 23:25.38 | L4m3r | and who is per se, "in charge" of bzbb at this point? |
| 23:25.39 | JeffM | bzbb ain't no democracy :) |
| 23:25.46 | Erroneous | L4m3r: you are! :) |
| 23:25.53 | JeffM | L4m3r, brlcad is the techincal owner |
| 23:25.57 | tannerld | where are the packets for MsgPlayerUpdateSmall packed? |
| 23:25.57 | JeffM | as it is his server |
| 23:26.03 | JeffM | tannerld, same place |
| 23:26.07 | JeffM | as the big ones |
| 23:26.08 | L4m3r | well yes, but in terms of day to day operations |
| 23:26.17 | JeffM | the code is passed to the state unpack |
| 23:26.25 | tannerld | hmmm |
| 23:26.36 | JeffM | L4m3r, that would be a great question to bring up with the project maintainer :) |
| 23:26.39 | L4m3r | i.e. who I should talk to in leu of Jeff :P |
| 23:26.47 | JeffM | but yeah it'll probably be you :) |
| 23:26.52 | L4m3r | Erroneous: D'oh! |
| 23:26.55 | JeffM | if you need another day to day, I recoemmend donny |
| 23:27.15 | JeffM | tannerld, the state unpack has 2 methods for unpacking ether a long or a short, they have the same info |
| 23:27.19 | JeffM | just in a difrent pack format |
| 23:27.20 | Erroneous | L4m3r: brlacd, blast, mentotume, and I are all on fairly regularly also |
| 23:27.25 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 23:27.43 | L4m3r | most of the "work", if you can call it that, is a no-brainer |
| 23:27.45 | Erroneous | so if you really need to ask someone, just get a second opinion from one of us :) |
| 23:28.07 | L4m3r | it's more a question of "Who do I talk to if I want to make radical changes and/or break something" |
| 23:28.13 | L4m3r | :) |
| 23:28.14 | JeffM | tim |
| 23:28.16 | JeffM | :) |
| 23:28.21 | Erroneous | brlcad |
| 23:28.22 | Erroneous | L(O |
| 23:28.24 | Erroneous | :) |
| 23:28.33 | JeffM | purple_cow! |
| 23:28.33 | Erroneous | gah |
| 23:28.54 | JeffM | he's the only other "offical" project admin ;) |
| 23:29.21 | L4m3r | >_< |
| 23:30.15 | JeffM | I very much had to resist hiting delete buttons on that forum today |
| 23:30.21 | ruskie | lol has a big capslock that is simply set to be a third ctrl |
| 23:31.28 | Erroneous | they'll get mocked if they make too many useless posts |
| 23:31.32 | JeffM | yet another reason I should not have one :) |
| 23:31.34 | L4m3r | though, necro-posting a person peeve of mine |
| 23:31.42 | L4m3r | useless posts in ancient threads are shot on sight |
| 23:31.45 | Erroneous | heh, did you warn him too? :) |
| 23:32.04 | L4m3r | I haven't deleted any lately |
| 23:32.06 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 23:32.18 | tannerld | JeffM: how do I figure out the format of which it was packed? |
| 23:32.19 | Erroneous | ah...there was a guy who did some thread necromancy recently |
| 23:32.24 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 23:32.29 | JeffM | tannerld, read the unpack code |
| 23:32.33 | L4m3r | someone else cleaned that one up |
| 23:32.37 | Erroneous | I warned him and he seemed really apologetic, so I wondered if maybe someone else had hit him first :) |
| 23:33.17 | *** join/#bzflag Quol (n=Quol@modemcable177.75-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 23:33.46 | *** join/#bzflag lodxcol (n=lodxcol@unaffiliated/lodxcol) |
| 23:35.46 | JeffM | stupid phpbb won't let me remove my own admin bit :( |
| 23:36.24 | Winny | Its a sign, JeffM |
| 23:36.38 | JeffM | that software developers assume users are stupid :) |
| 23:36.50 | L4m3r | is that a request for assistance? :P |
| 23:36.57 | JeffM | maybe |
| 23:37.02 | JeffM | I haven't decided yet |
| 23:37.45 | *** join/#bzflag uso (n=uso@84-72-8-253.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 23:38.08 | JeffM | it would prevent me from seeing the extra stuff |
| 23:38.33 | JeffM | I hit the fourm link by habbit still, that'll take a while to get rid of |
| 23:39.24 | Winny | You mean BZBB isn't your homepage? :o |
| 23:39.41 | JeffM | never has been |
| 23:39.56 | JeffM | MSN is the common one for me |
| 23:40.01 | JeffM | if not that, then just google |
| 23:40.04 | *** join/#bzflag tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.169.195) |
| 23:41.30 | L4m3r | making a forum your homepage is a bad idea anyway |
| 23:41.38 | L4m3r | 'cuz you miss posts |
| 23:41.41 | JeffM | you'd loose stuff |
| 23:41.47 | L4m3r | they get marked read when you don't read them |
| 23:42.08 | Winny | I always read them :p |
| 23:42.27 | L4m3r | I don't see a need for having a homepage |
| 23:42.40 | L4m3r | Even Google takes longer to load than about:blank |
| 23:42.45 | L4m3r | :P |
| 23:46.33 | L4m3r | come on down, the fried chicken is good... and you get to see L4m3r wearing a silly hat! |
| 23:47.02 | Winny | Ooh, a silly hat? |
| 23:47.05 | jude- | where do you work? |
| 23:47.06 | Winny | Where can I find you? |
| 23:47.23 | JeffM | I like the msn one, it gives me a quick look at what is happenin in the meat world |
| 23:47.25 | L4m3r | at the dining hall downstairs :P |
| 23:47.56 | jude- | what company do you work for, L4m3r? |
| 23:48.01 | L4m3r | JeffM: that's what the Vista Sidebar news widget is for! |
| 23:48.15 | jude- | ewww...Vi$ta |
| 23:48.33 | Winny | Ewww, jude- |
| 23:48.34 | Winny | ;) |
| 23:48.55 | L4m3r | jude-: I am an employee of the state |
| 23:49.01 | L4m3r | of California, to be specific |
| 23:49.15 | jude- | Interesting |
| 23:49.18 | Winny | California sells fried chicken? :o |
| 23:49.30 | Winny | ~stop L4m3r |
| 23:49.33 | ibot | ACTION leaps to his feet and stops L4m3r |
| 23:49.36 | jude- | bye L4m3r |
| 23:50.08 | CBG | jude-: wow, the work you've done so far looks great (or if they're mock-ups.. looks like it's gonna be great) ! |
| 23:50.25 | Winny | JeffM: can I have it? :p |
| 23:51.06 | JeffM | it's tied to my hardware, so no |
| 23:51.17 | jude- | CBG: thanks! |
| 23:51.21 | JeffM | if it could have been transfered, I'd have sold it to work |
| 23:51.27 | jude- | CBG, yeah, they're mock-ups |
| 23:51.46 | Winny | jude-: is this on the forum? |
| 23:51.59 | jude- | yes |
| 23:52.02 | Winny | ah, k |
| 23:52.04 | CBG | http://www.u.arizona.edu/~jnelson/bzworkbench.html |
| 23:52.18 | jude- | I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else wants any additional features |
| 23:52.45 | Erroneous | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=108778 |
| 23:52.57 | CBG | jude-: ah, ok. but still, looks like it'll be great. How will BZWB (?) cope with meshes? No chance of something built in, I guess, but could meshes be imported and moved, resized, etc etc like other objects/groups ? |
| 23:53.28 | *** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (n=Kalen@fl-71-49-6-126.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 23:53.29 | jude- | CBG, most likely it will import mesh files |
| 23:53.43 | jude- | i.e. .obj, .3ds, .ac3d, .x, etc |
| 23:53.57 | jude- | and then they'll just be treated like normal objects |
| 23:54.09 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@124-168-3-131.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:54.11 | jude- | that can be translated, scaled, rotated, duplicated, grouped, etc. |
| 23:54.45 | jude- | you have the right idea :) |
| 23:54.55 | jude- | Erroneous, thanks :) |
| 23:55.10 | jude- | looks cool |
| 23:55.30 | CBG | fantastical :) |
| 23:55.30 | CBG | ~jude-++ |
| 23:55.36 | Winny | yay, then we can stay with our fav modeler for modeling :D |
| 23:55.41 | Winny | ~jude-++ |
| 23:56.05 | jude- | yay, I have karma points! |
| 23:56.32 | Winny | ~karma jude- |
| 23:56.32 | ibot | jude- has karma of 2 |
| 23:56.37 | jude- | yup |
| 23:56.41 | Winny | only 2? bah! |
| 23:57.15 | Erroneous | ~karma Erroneous |
| 23:57.15 | ibot | erroneous has karma of 41 |
| 23:57.38 | Erroneous | ~karma DTRemenak |
| 23:57.38 | ibot | dtremenak has karma of 250 |
| 23:57.46 | davemicc | ~karma davemicc |
| 23:57.46 | ibot | davemicc has neutral karma |
| 23:57.49 | davemicc | lol |
| 23:58.11 | Winny | ~karma Winny |
| 23:58.11 | ibot | winny has karma of 6 |
| 23:58.14 | jude- | ...anyway, I need to go to my high school's grad ceremony (I have friends that are graduating). I'll be back in a few hours :) |
| 23:58.16 | Winny | ~Winny-- |
| 23:58.29 | Winny | hf :) |
| 23:58.32 | Erroneous | cool, have fun! :) |
| 23:58.51 | CBG | ~jude-++ |