| 00:02.42 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (n=jbdigriz@206-15-67-2.static.twtelecom.net) |
| 00:02.42 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 00:10.54 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.ar.comcast.net) |
| 00:11.06 | jude- | hello all |
| 00:11.15 | blast007 | hi jude- |
| 00:11.18 | AAA_Awright | Hi jude- |
| 00:11.32 | axl_rose | hey baby |
| 00:11.46 | jude- | baby? |
| 00:11.58 | AAA_Awright | Hi |
| 00:12.13 | axl_rose | oh shit i just shut my cock in the toilet seat |
| 00:12.47 | axl_rose | hey blast remember the wiki? |
| 00:12.50 | jude- | ~AAA_Awright++ |
| 00:12.52 | axl_rose | good times |
| 00:13.13 | jude- | for the work on the BZFlag web stats |
| 00:13.24 | AAA_Awright | Thanks, jude- |
| 00:13.26 | axl_rose | I need to stop doing acid |
| 00:13.37 | purple_cow | axl_rose: watch the language |
| 00:14.26 | axl_rose | woah baby touch my cock |
| 00:14.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+b *!*@*.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] by purple_cow |
| 00:14.32 | *** kick/#bzflag [axl_rose!n=david@208.69.182.150] by purple_cow (purple_cow) |
| 00:14.44 | blast007 | thx purple_cow |
| 00:14.50 | AAA_Awright | (party) |
| 00:15.15 | jude- | ~purple_cow++ |
| 00:23.11 | AAA_Awright | Plugins can fire any sort of word weapon, right? |
| 00:23.34 | blast007 | only English word weapons |
| 00:23.56 | AAA_Awright | English? |
| 00:24.07 | AAA_Awright | Ha, ha |
| 00:24.16 | AAA_Awright | World weapons. |
| 00:24.53 | JeffM | awww we missed it |
| 00:25.31 | AAA_Awright | Wha? |
| 00:25.32 | JeffM | that's what I get for having odd ideas on how to haxorz the irix |
| 00:25.54 | Erroneous | purple_cow prolly woulda beat us to it anyway :) |
| 00:26.08 | JeffM | probably not |
| 00:26.15 | JeffM | he's the last line of defense |
| 00:26.22 | Erroneous | only took him like 75 seconds |
| 00:26.36 | JeffM | ahh timestamps |
| 00:26.38 | JeffM | joy |
| 00:26.51 | purple_cow | Erroneous: only because blast007 was bugging me |
| 00:26.56 | blast007 | :) |
| 00:26.59 | Erroneous | woulda taken me that long just to look up ban syntax :) |
| 00:27.00 | purple_cow | normally I'd ignore any "duties" I have to this channel |
| 00:27.12 | JeffM | I hoipe that scsi drive dosn't fail while it's swap :) |
| 00:27.16 | purple_cow | Erroneous: my client lets me "/kickban user" |
| 00:27.16 | Erroneous | haha |
| 00:27.21 | purple_cow | and it does something reasonable |
| 00:27.32 | Erroneous | ah. mine does something unreasonable, iirc |
| 00:27.40 | Erroneous | like bans by username |
| 00:30.54 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r14857 10/trunk/admin/master-bans.txt: (axl rose) Update IP |
| 00:32.04 | jude- | yay |
| 00:33.20 | jude- | JeffM: I have a few hot-swappable SCSI disks laying around that are compatible with the O2 if your current one burns out |
| 00:33.39 | JeffM | I have 2 drives for the 02 |
| 00:33.42 | JeffM | this is an external |
| 00:33.46 | jude- | ahh |
| 00:33.50 | JeffM | that we are using as swap in linux |
| 00:34.14 | JeffM | just to be able to load the xfs tools to reset the root password on the existing drive :) |
| 00:34.23 | jude- | heh |
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| 00:34.45 | jude- | the only external SCSI disk enclosures I have are all Sun hardware |
| 00:38.28 | JeffM | well this system only has 64 megs of ram in it, that was the big deal :) |
| 00:38.53 | blast007 | that's twice what my linux system has |
| 00:40.04 | JeffM | yeah but are you atempting to load in the file system directory off a 4 gig drive into ram? |
| 00:40.11 | JeffM | on a system with no swap |
| 00:40.18 | JeffM | that was booted from a live CD :) |
| 00:40.32 | JeffM | jude-, do you have running SGI machines there? |
| 00:40.52 | jude- | JeffM: yes--an Octane 1.5 (Octane 1 chassis + power supply, Octane2 motherboard) |
| 00:41.03 | jude- | 1.792 GB RAM, dual R10000 |
| 00:41.07 | JeffM | do you have the demo "bz" on any of them? |
| 00:41.15 | blast007 | JeffM: nope, haven't tried that, but I do boot my linux system from a floppy disk, and use a FAT32 partition for linux via UMSDOS |
| 00:41.18 | jude- | It doesn't run IRIX, I'm afraid |
| 00:41.25 | JeffM | ahhh |
| 00:41.39 | JeffM | untill I can get a set of IRIX disks I can't get that app :( |
| 00:41.48 | jude- | so far, the only thing I've been able to do was net-boot an experimental Gentoo stage-3 image |
| 00:42.02 | jude- | it doesn't like booting from the disk for some reason :/ |
| 00:42.04 | JeffM | we got this one to boot from a gentoo CD |
| 00:42.17 | JeffM | so far it's all worked rather well |
| 00:42.37 | JeffM | even the adaptech scsi card worked |
| 00:43.03 | jude- | do you happen to know if the R10000 is backwards-compatible with the R5000? |
| 00:43.31 | JeffM | I know squat about em |
| 00:43.42 | JeffM | I purchased mine on accedent |
| 00:43.43 | JeffM | :) |
| 00:43.57 | jude- | accident? how? |
| 00:44.35 | JeffM | well it was like 50 on ebay and I just kinda typed in a bid of 55 to see how high the current bidder went |
| 00:44.42 | jude- | only 50? |
| 00:44.45 | JeffM | and apereantly they went to like 51 |
| 00:44.57 | jude- | that's actually pretty good for an O2...lots of them go for over 100 |
| 00:44.57 | JeffM | and I didnt' realise the auction was like 5 min from closing |
| 00:44.59 | JeffM | so I won it |
| 00:45.11 | blast007 | heh |
| 00:45.14 | JeffM | yeah was like 52$ for the machine |
| 00:45.17 | JeffM | and 16$ shiping |
| 00:45.21 | jude- | nice |
| 00:45.26 | JeffM | it's a bit scratched up |
| 00:45.29 | JeffM | but it booted |
| 00:45.53 | JeffM | then I got 6 32 meg dimms for it for 0.99$ each |
| 00:46.18 | jude- | but you said it only had 64 MB RAM...did some of them not work? |
| 00:46.31 | JeffM | it came with 64 megs |
| 00:46.34 | JeffM | 2 32's |
| 00:46.42 | jude- | I see |
| 00:46.45 | JeffM | the other 6 are sill in the mail |
| 00:47.05 | JeffM | it has 8 slots |
| 00:47.12 | JeffM | so I'll fill it up and have 256 |
| 00:47.23 | jude- | that's pretty decent |
| 00:47.34 | jude- | what are the graphics? |
| 00:47.39 | JeffM | the basic stuff |
| 00:48.16 | jude- | same here...except mine came dual-headed |
| 00:48.20 | jude- | (by accident) |
| 00:48.26 | JeffM | heh |
| 00:48.40 | jude- | it certainly wasn't advertized that way, nor did the pics show it :) |
| 00:49.24 | JeffM | I'd think I should be able to find SOMEONE who has the "bz" app intalled on one |
| 00:50.10 | jude- | if I can get a copy of IRIX somewhere for cheap, I'll do it :) |
| 00:52.20 | JeffM | I'd think based on there whackass license somone would have a set of images on one of the "alternitive" software distrobution channels |
| 00:53.31 | jude- | "alternative" |
| 00:53.31 | jude- | ? |
| 00:53.41 | JeffM | less then legal |
| 00:54.05 | JeffM | rymes with borrent |
| 00:54.23 | jude- | heh |
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| 01:09.13 | AAA_Awright | Anyone want to help clean up http://my.bzflag.org/w/Ideas ? |
| 01:09.17 | AAA_Awright | With me? |
| 01:10.26 | jude- | what needs to be cleaned up? |
| 01:10.38 | AAA_Awright | All the stupid and implemented or old ideas |
| 01:10.56 | jude- | define "stupid" |
| 01:11.42 | AAA_Awright | We can define that on a case by case basis |
| 01:12.11 | AAA_Awright | Should GM's lock on to teammates? |
| 01:12.40 | jude- | I think the game would be easier if they didn't...but in reality, guided missiles aren't that smart :/ |
| 01:13.23 | AAA_Awright | The comment on that is that GM's should have more risks then they do now, not less. It is a very powerful weapon on many maps |
| 01:14.11 | jude- | as an end-user, I think the idea of guided missles locking on to teammates makes their usage hard enough |
| 01:14.26 | jude- | especially in close-quarters or siege warfare |
| 01:14.37 | jude- | which idea is this? |
| 01:14.51 | AAA_Awright | Multi-monitor support (i.e., radar on one screen, window on another, chat/event log on a third) |
| 01:15.01 | AAA_Awright | This one is implemented with the -view option |
| 01:15.12 | AAA_Awright | I used it once, back in 1.10 I think... |
| 01:15.31 | jude- | I guess you should eliminate it, then, or somehow mark it as implemented |
| 01:15.34 | AAA_Awright | Three monitors and giant speakers worked really well, take it off? |
| 01:16.10 | AAA_Awright | I don't know if you can seperate the radar and chat to different screens, that is what it implies |
| 01:16.24 | jude- | I wouldn't erase it just yet... |
| 01:16.37 | jude- | maybe it could be marked as "implemented" |
| 01:16.45 | jude- | and we could ask the main devs if it should be removed |
| 01:16.49 | Macrosoft | hmm, who is M. Jetlab? |
| 01:16.53 | jude- | i.e. they may want to keep it for archival purposes |
| 01:18.36 | AAA_Awright | Mediawiki archives everything already though, and there is no option (Still) to seperate radar, 3d, and chat |
| 01:18.56 | AAA_Awright | vote to keep? |
| 01:19.09 | jude- | nah |
| 01:19.13 | jude- | eliminate it, then |
| 01:19.20 | jude- | if you feel it's necessary |
| 01:19.32 | jude- | ...but then again, I'm not sure if I'm the right person to ask |
| 01:19.47 | AAA_Awright | Macrosoft tannerld: busy? |
| 01:20.13 | Macrosoft | AAA_Awright: nope |
| 01:20.16 | jude- | (regarding as to whether or not ideas should be removed or archived, that is) |
| 01:21.13 | AAA_Awright | Materials that don't allow OO and PZ to go through: Is this idea going to be implemented into the bzw/bwc format anytime soon? |
| 01:21.38 | AAA_Awright | I really like it, you could define floors for OO and PZ |
| 01:21.43 | jude- | not that I'm aware of...I didn't see anything like that in the current spec |
| 01:21.55 | jude- | it's a good idea, tho |
| 01:22.12 | jude- | it *might* be supported experimentally by "obstacle" |
| 01:23.01 | AAA_Awright | for broadband or LAN connections - voice chat for teams |
| 01:23.43 | AAA_Awright | I know exactly how to implement this in bzproto, but still a bad idea. It has been voted on before as a no-go, delete? |
| 01:24.01 | jude- | I think there are other bits of software that can handle that |
| 01:24.17 | jude- | what would be nice would be a script that would launch said software along with the client |
| 01:24.23 | jude- | but not necessarily integrated into BZFlag |
| 01:25.59 | AAA_Awright | Weapon extension packs. -- Huh? Explain, please. L4m3r -- Delete? |
| 01:26.47 | AAA_Awright | No one likes Mondays? :p |
| 01:27.01 | jude- | weapon expansion packs? |
| 01:27.10 | jude- | wipe it |
| 01:27.14 | jude- | too vauge |
| 01:27.16 | jude- | *vague |
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| 01:29.23 | AAA_Awright | This was an idea improperly submitted, yet I sort of like it? Teleporters to other serers. |
| 01:29.52 | AAA_Awright | This would work perfectly with my BZFlag-rpg idea |
| 01:30.57 | AAA_Awright | It wouldn't see much use, however. And people need to know where they are teleporting too... |
| 01:32.16 | AAA_Awright | There are shot limits, what thoughts exist about kill limits? |
| 01:32.57 | jude- | teleporting between servers might work...but not with standard teleporters |
| 01:33.08 | jude- | not enough information is provided in the BZW spec |
| 01:33.34 | jude- | it would have to be server-specific, probably a plug-in IN ADDITION to a new BZW spec that allowed hopping from IP address to IP address |
| 01:33.59 | jude- | it's technically possible, but I'm not sure how much it would be utilized or whether or not the effort would be worth it |
| 01:34.19 | AAA_Awright | The biggest problem with server-to-server teleporting is how do you ID what server to go to? And what do you do if you can't connect? |
| 01:34.28 | AAA_Awright | It would be a killer teleporter then |
| 01:34.37 | blast007 | someone also had the idea to allow multiple "zones" or "channels" on a single server instance |
| 01:34.56 | blast007 | so you could make a teleporter switch to a different zone on that same server |
| 01:35.10 | AAA_Awright | blast007: Almost like apache, one parent bzfs that handles different games on child processes |
| 01:35.16 | blast007 | the map itself could specify zones |
| 01:35.28 | AAA_Awright | and when you join, you specify what game you are going into |
| 01:35.35 | AAA_Awright | one port, many games. |
| 01:35.36 | blast007 | and even share stuff like materials and groups |
| 01:35.44 | blast007 | (between the zones) |
| 01:35.52 | jude- | that would work |
| 01:36.18 | AAA_Awright | Major protocol change would be needed. The concept of slots would become abstract :S |
| 01:36.43 | jude- | the client would have to download all sections of the map in advance....that may take a while |
| 01:37.03 | jude- | (otherwise, there would be a huge lag between teleportations) |
| 01:37.03 | AAA_Awright | Or in the backround, until you get to one that hasn't finished yet |
| 01:37.21 | AAA_Awright | dl the one you are using first, then the others in the background |
| 01:37.40 | jude- | lag |
| 01:37.50 | AAA_Awright | eh, right |
| 01:38.50 | jude- | another problem: for maps that have dynamic objects, how will they stay in sync? |
| 01:39.29 | blast007 | jude-: it could be a single map file |
| 01:39.45 | jude- | that works :) |
| 01:40.10 | blast007 | and it should share materials and groups between each zone |
| 01:40.32 | blast007 | AAA_Awright: slots would/could still be used |
| 01:41.00 | AAA_Awright | It would be more abstract though. Not a problem, in most cases. |
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| 01:41.44 | AAA_Awright | The parent server would need to store a gameid+slotid |
| 01:42.13 | blast007 | they'd be seperate values |
| 01:42.48 | AAA_Awright | and the slot is assigned at the start of a session, but the same slot number needs to be able to be used multiple times throughout different child servers |
| 01:43.35 | blast007 | by "child" do you mean threading? |
| 01:43.42 | AAA_Awright | Yes. |
| 01:44.24 | AAA_Awright | The child processes would function the same as current servers do, the parent server would just handle starting connections and moving clients to the server they choose |
| 01:44.37 | AAA_Awright | How would a client choose the server though? (I know) |
| 01:45.02 | AAA_Awright | Wanna know? |
| 01:45.25 | blast007 | is there a true need for threading? |
| 01:46.05 | AAA_Awright | blast007: Yes, if multiple servers are being run |
| 01:46.29 | AAA_Awright | Stability primarily. |
| 01:46.32 | blast007 | it's not a full server, it's a seperate part of a map, with message seperation |
| 01:46.56 | AAA_Awright | And callsign seperation? |
| 01:47.34 | blast007 | weren't we talking about teleporting between servers/zones? |
| 01:48.12 | AAA_Awright | That could work with either idea |
| 01:51.36 | AAA_Awright | If servers are being threaded to host seperate games on one port, There could be a transfer-servers packet and the client would specify what server to transfer scores, ect to. |
| 01:53.21 | AAA_Awright | I don't entirely like the idea of running bzfs on any port but 5154 (unless above 60000), and this would solve it. Kinda. It would allow me to put priority on port 5154 and have it work for more then 30% of the games on the listserver. |
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| 16:31.44 | delusional_ | I'm wondering why SkyBoxMaterials won't respond to a texture matrix, while GroundMaterial will respond, Is it because the GroundMaterial is actually applied to an object (the ground) while skyboxes have no associated object? |
| 16:32.15 | delusional_ | I guess I'm asking if the ground is an object. |
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| 16:32.54 | SpazzyMcGee | AFAIK, It's all 'objects'. |
| 16:33.04 | SpazzyMcGee | Just hard coded ones. |
| 16:33.28 | SpazzyMcGee | Just single-face plains. Am I right? |
| 16:34.11 | Macrosoft|AFK | you mean plane? |
| 16:34.52 | SpazzyMcGee | I do. |
| 16:35.22 | delusional_ | I just want to stretch some skyboxmaterials. |
| 16:35.35 | CBG | Woah woah woah.. Marriage is a HUGE commitment, SpazzyMcGee! At least think about it first! |
| 16:35.45 | delusional_ | I can get groundmaterial to respond to a texmat, but not skyboxes |
| 16:39.39 | delusional_ | I'll probably end up with _drawSky 0 and build my own skybox |
| 16:40.25 | SpazzyMcGee | delusional: it won't draw - it's too far away. |
| 16:40.58 | SpazzyMcGee | unless you make worldSize huge |
| 16:42.09 | delusional_ | wonder if I could make a skyDOME, anf have the image on the inside |
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| 20:07.42 | *** join/#bzflag mrigns (n=mrigns@unaffiliated/mrigns) |
| 20:09.43 | *** join/#bzflag mrigns (n=mrigns@unaffiliated/mrigns) |
| 20:09.47 | AAA_Awright | Bloodbath has had a problem with too many new people who TK then don't know how to say sorry, I wondered if it would be possible to sponsor an official tutorial server that is always at the top if not requested with a callsign |
| 20:10.15 | AAA_Awright | It would have the basic stuff, server commands, sending messages, then shooting bots |
| 20:10.33 | AAA_Awright | and some flags, of course. |
| 20:11.11 | blast007 | AAA_Awright: or build a tutorial into the game itself |
| 20:11.35 | blast007 | but there had been some talk before regarding tutorials |
| 20:12.00 | blast007 | I think that's part of my toggle for movement and shooting were added for 2.1 |
| 20:13.35 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_Awright__ (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 20:15.48 | AAA_awright | blast007: Building a server would be the easiest to update. If you were going to distribute it with the client, it would be a server anyways. |
| 20:16.34 | AAA_awright | Problem would be making the tutorial fun, something that all new users go through. |
| 20:17.05 | blast007 | right |
| 20:17.17 | blast007 | the toggle for movement/shooting was added for stuff like that |
| 20:17.30 | blast007 | not sure if pop-up dialogs were added yet |
| 20:17.41 | AAA_awright | Uuh... server messages? |
| 20:17.56 | blast007 | yeah, from the server |
| 20:18.23 | blast007 | like "Welcome to the tutorial server. In this lesson, you will be learning blah" |
| 20:18.42 | blast007 | the tutorial stuff could be a plugin |
| 20:18.59 | AAA_awright | A custom built server would be best. I wonder if my PHP server would do the trick... |
| 20:19.05 | blast007 | ewww, no |
| 20:19.07 | blast007 | never |
| 20:19.09 | AAA_awright | Then you could isolate all the players |
| 20:19.35 | AAA_awright | Server side bots are in 2.1? |
| 20:19.40 | blast007 | sorta |
| 20:19.53 | blast007 | don't think they can do much yet |
| 20:19.54 | AAA_awright | "Sorta" he says |
| 20:19.56 | AAA_awright | Like how? |
| 20:20.02 | blast007 | I think they can spawn |
| 20:20.06 | AAA_awright | Heh |
| 20:21.04 | AAA_awright | Would that be a feature worth putting up though? |
| 20:21.08 | AAA_awright | I sure think so |
| 20:21.23 | AAA_awright | More players |
| 20:33.28 | blast007 | tutorial? yeah, definately |
| 20:34.30 | blast007 | if you want to help with that, talk with some of the devs |
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| 20:48.18 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@144.90.11.17) |
| 20:48.23 | jude- | hello al |
| 20:48.26 | jude- | *all |
| 20:50.53 | CBG | ~jude-++ |
| 20:50.56 | CBG | Is it done yet? |
| 20:52.01 | jude- | not nearly |
| 20:52.18 | jude- | it's getting there...you can do 1.7.x stuff now |
| 20:52.26 | jude- | but 2.0 stuff is still in the making |
| 20:54.20 | CBG | Well, sounds like your streets... no... highways ahead of L4m3r :P |
| 20:54.44 | jude- | ....that, and I have the advantage of getting out of school earlier than him :P |
| 20:55.07 | CBG | Heh.. |
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| 21:51.06 | AAA_awright | Hey jude-: I am just starting to realise how useful that auto-mirror and rotating feature would be. Seriously consider designing your UI around that |
| 21:52.18 | jude- | AAA_awright: there are more important things to worry about first |
| 21:52.31 | AAA_awright | No features, just think about it. |
| 21:52.43 | jude- | don't get me wrong; auto-mirroring is a Good Thing(tm)....it's just that there is so much more that needs to be done first |
| 21:52.58 | AAA_awright | Don't put in some showstopper of a feature that would prohibit you from implementing it later on |
| 21:53.25 | blast007 | yeah, like anti-mirroring technology |
| 21:54.38 | AAA_awright | My example is that BZFlag engine was designed with one play style in mind. Usually that is a bad thing, but in the case of BZFlag it was a Good Thing because it kept the integrity of play. |
| 21:54.49 | AAA_awright | er.... bad example then. |
| 21:55.33 | jude- | AAA_awright: how would you suggest implementing multiple axes of symmetry? |
| 21:56.04 | AAA_awright | There is a floor plain, right? |
| 21:56.10 | jude- | yes |
| 21:56.19 | AAA_awright | Add the ability to create planes of symmetry and rotation |
| 21:56.34 | jude- | easier said than done |
| 21:57.03 | AAA_awright | add two plains of symmetry intersecting at (0,0). Again, just keep this in the back of your mind when choosing a file format and such. |
| 21:57.28 | jude- | file format? |
| 21:57.33 | jude- | BZWB uses BZW 2.0 |
| 21:58.29 | AAA_awright | Where are you keeping metadata? |
| 21:58.43 | jude- | BZWB's metadata? |
| 21:58.45 | jude- | in the file? |
| 21:58.53 | AAA_awright | Meta-Comments? |
| 21:59.06 | AAA_awright | Storing important information as comments? |
| 21:59.10 | jude- | eventually |
| 21:59.13 | jude- | it doesn't do that yet |
| 21:59.22 | jude- | but it would be a trivial addition |
| 21:59.30 | jude- | when it became necessary for the editor to function |
| 21:59.33 | AAA_awright | It is sort of hackish, but that has worked for many good programs I know of in the past |
| 21:59.57 | jude- | AAA_awright: I mean, BZWB does not yet have any metadata worth storing |
| 22:00.06 | AAA_awright | It will eventually |
| 22:00.12 | jude- | you're right, it *should* go in the comments |
| 22:00.27 | AAA_awright | There is really no where else to put it |
| 22:00.31 | jude- | indeed |
| 22:00.38 | AAA_awright | And the metacomments should be the very end of the file if possible |
| 22:00.47 | jude- | yup |
| 22:00.52 | AAA_awright | Good |
| 22:01.04 | jude- | otherwise, reading the map output would be difficult |
| 22:01.13 | jude- | for humans, at least |
| 22:01.39 | AAA_awright | You can put as many comments as you want into the file, BZFlag doesn't download them thankfully |
| 22:02.30 | AAA_awright | Imagine downloading a .bzw for one of Louman's maps instead of the .bwc :s |
| 22:02.43 | jude- | here's an idea for arbitrary axes of symmetry: the user designs an arbitrary sector of the map, clicks a hypothetical "reflect" tool which prompts the user for the 3D axis, and upon inputting that axis, the sector as a whole is transformed about the axis |
| 22:03.00 | AAA_awright | Yah |
| 22:03.14 | jude- | but that's different from adding planes of symmetry before-hand |
| 22:03.23 | AAA_awright | That idea is better |
| 22:03.35 | jude- | adding them beforehand can get messy |
| 22:03.45 | jude- | imagine adding an object, only to have two or more appear :) |
| 22:03.50 | jude- | the n00bs would be very confused |
| 22:04.13 | AAA_awright | Well it wouldn't be by default :p |
| 22:04.37 | jude- | imagine said n00bs try to open a map with axes of symmetry pre-defined |
| 22:04.47 | jude- | and then try to modify it |
| 22:05.10 | AAA_awright | How about this: After you have 1/2 1/4 1/whatever of the map done, you define the plain, then select what groups are reflected to that plain |
| 22:05.29 | jude- | right |
| 22:05.38 | jude- | the reflection only applies to the selection |
| 22:06.03 | jude- | and it's a one-time action |
| 22:06.16 | jude- | i.e. adding future objects to the original quadrant will ONLY appear in that quadrant |
| 22:06.38 | AAA_awright | erm, that would make it hard to edit afterwards? |
| 22:06.38 | jude- | unless they themselves are later reflected about the same axis |
| 22:06.42 | jude- | how so? |
| 22:07.09 | AAA_awright | The whole point of adding magical planes is so when you make one change, it is also changed on the other rotations/symmetry... areas. |
| 22:07.21 | jude- | that's what I'm trying to avoid |
| 22:07.40 | jude- | a reflection is a one-time duplicate/tranform operation |
| 22:07.46 | jude- | no magic planes |
| 22:08.07 | AAA_awright | For example, Bloodbath 2 is two revisions in, it would be much easier if you don't have to do the same edit four times for every edit |
| 22:08.40 | jude- | but at the expense of being confusing |
| 22:09.06 | jude- | the axis of reflection is not perminent, nor is it saved |
| 22:09.14 | AAA_awright | If you are the one who added the plains of symmetry, and you visually see them semitransparent, you shouldn't have a problem |
| 22:09.29 | AAA_awright | The ground plain is also semitransparent, right? |
| 22:09.38 | jude- | AAA_awright: that's what I'm trying to avoid--persistent planes/axes of symmetry |
| 22:09.48 | jude- | no, the ground is opaque |
| 22:09.55 | jude- | but non-z-buffered |
| 22:10.14 | AAA_awright | Right |
| 22:10.52 | jude- | no magic planes, no persistant axes/planes of symmetry, just a tool that can reflect a selection about an axis |
| 22:11.19 | jude- | it's far less confusing |
| 22:11.29 | jude- | and just as effective |
| 22:11.37 | AAA_awright | Not if you want to edit a map |
| 22:11.53 | jude- | oh? |
| 22:12.09 | Macrosoft|AFK | AAA_awright AAA_Awright__ AAA_awright_: the clones are coming! |
| 22:12.19 | AAA_awright | A persistent checkbox, stored in metadata? |
| 22:12.29 | jude- | checkbox? |
| 22:12.57 | AAA_awright | Some sort of switch that makes it one-time/persistent? |
| 22:13.26 | Macrosoft|AFK | jude-: telekinesis |
| 22:13.52 | jude- | maybe it can save axes that have been used in the past, and present them to the user in said dialog box? |
| 22:14.04 | jude- | they can be visualized while the reflection is happenning |
| 22:14.37 | AAA_awright | Yah. I am thinking of the planes of reflection/symmetry more as objects not unlike the "TeleporterLink" object and "Group" object in .bzw |
| 22:14.46 | jude- | but the stated goal of BZWB is to render as much *BZW* data as possible |
| 22:15.01 | AAA_awright | The saved file would contain all the copies |
| 22:15.21 | AAA_awright | But if you edited one copy, and the persistant switch is on, it makes 2/4/8 changes at a time |
| 22:15.27 | AAA_awright | with one action. |
| 22:15.28 | jude- | reflections/symmetries are not BZW-compliant, so they should not be rendered |
| 22:15.43 | jude- | also, making multiple changes at the same time is confusing |
| 22:15.45 | AAA_awright | That is why it is stored in metadata, bzflag won't render it |
| 22:16.21 | AAA_awright | rather, bzfs |
| 22:16.42 | jude- | and who's going to answer the countless e-mails I get asking me "why does changing one object change 8 others?" and "what's with the translucent planes?" |
| 22:16.57 | AAA_awright | It isn't on by default! |
| 22:17.09 | jude- | but it WILL be on if the user loads a map that *has* them |
| 22:17.14 | jude- | otherwise, what's the point? |
| 22:17.18 | AAA_awright | Disable them at startup? |
| 22:17.22 | *** join/#bzflag tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.128.131) |
| 22:17.38 | jude- | then what's the point of having them? |
| 22:18.17 | jude- | if they don't turn on by default, then to most newbies, they might as well not exist |
| 22:18.29 | AAA_awright | Which is better then not having them exist at all? |
| 22:18.50 | jude- | what I don't see is why they have to be rendered at all |
| 22:19.14 | jude- | or why objects that have been reflected have to remain in sync with their originals |
| 22:19.27 | jude- | that's confusing |
| 22:19.47 | jude- | not only power-users are going to be using this program, after all |
| 22:20.09 | Erroneous | how do you intend to deal with multiply-instanced groups? |
| 22:20.25 | AAA_awright | Personally, I think if people could visualize where their symmetry lies, it would me more helpful |
| 22:20.47 | jude- | Erroneous: they will be flagged graphically as being grouped, and will be treated as one object. see www.u.arizona.edu/~jnelson/bzworkbench.html for a mock-up of this |
| 22:21.04 | Erroneous | jude-: so if I have two instances of the same group, and I edit one, what happens to the other? |
| 22:21.18 | jude- | nothing, yet |
| 22:21.28 | AAA_awright | What Will happen then. |
| 22:21.30 | Erroneous | how does the editor know that? |
| 22:21.36 | jude- | internally, BZWB will create a new group |
| 22:22.05 | Erroneous | so map files will randomly get larger when edited? |
| 22:22.31 | jude- | only if the user decides to change one group but not others |
| 22:22.46 | Erroneous | a lot of the power from groups comes from being able to change the source object and have it affect all the instances |
| 22:23.05 | Erroneous | and that's really all AAA_awright is asking for |
| 22:23.20 | jude- | duplicating a group doesn't duplicate the definition of it |
| 22:23.21 | AAA_awright | Erroneous: Exactly |
| 22:23.36 | Erroneous | jude-: but duplicating it, then editing it, does? |
| 22:24.44 | Erroneous | jude-: lets say I have a group with three boxes in it. I duplicate it and mirror it around x. I then add a fourth box to it. did I change the definition of the group with two instances, or create a new group? |
| 22:24.58 | jude- | a mere duplication or a cut/copy/paste will create a new "group" object that references a pre-defined "define" object. Modifying the objects within a group object will either cause them to be ungrouped (so as to apply the change to said sub-objects) or a new definition will be created specifically for that group |
| 22:25.02 | Erroneous | either one could be what I desired |
| 22:26.04 | Erroneous | so, lets say I have a map with eight identical sections each rotated by 45 degrees around the center |
| 22:26.21 | Erroneous | now I want to change the map slightly. how do I do that? |
| 22:26.29 | jude- | what do you want to change? |
| 22:26.33 | Erroneous | do I have to delete seven copies, change the group, and re-duplicate the whole thing? |
| 22:26.55 | Erroneous | I made a box 19.5 units, and people can't jump on it. |
| 22:26.59 | AAA_awright | HiX2 for example |
| 22:27.01 | Erroneous | now I want it 18 units. |
| 22:27.16 | AAA_awright | a pane of symmetry and 4 rotations around the center |
| 22:27.34 | jude- | ...and you want that change to filter down into the clones? |
| 22:27.38 | Erroneous | yup |
| 22:28.17 | jude- | ...and what if I wanted to change the height of only one of those boxes? |
| 22:28.28 | Erroneous | good question |
| 22:28.32 | AAA_awright | Copy the group |
| 22:28.44 | Erroneous | either one is a pretty poor default :) |
| 22:29.01 | jude- | hmmm..... |
| 22:29.11 | AAA_awright | Or have an "Exception" flag that means don't apply the change to other members of the group. THAT could be confusing, however. |
| 22:29.16 | jude- | maybe there could be a "duplicate linked" command |
| 22:29.21 | AAA_awright | Wouldn't recommend that idea. |
| 22:29.24 | jude- | where changing one changes all linked objects |
| 22:29.38 | AAA_awright | jude-: Prehaps |
| 22:29.44 | jude- | ...and linked objects could demonstrate linkage graphically, perhaps |
| 22:29.46 | Erroneous | you could go another way, and have it prompt each time you changed a member of a group with more than one instance, asking whether you want to propagate to all instances or just this instance |
| 22:29.51 | Erroneous | but that could get annoying |
| 22:29.55 | jude- | indeed |
| 22:30.28 | Erroneous | or you could introduce some sort of modality, where you toggle between editing the instance and editing the definition |
| 22:31.07 | Erroneous | or you could make everything linked by default, and have an easily accessible "de-link" command |
| 22:32.26 | jude- | even better: all groups share the same changes ALWAYS, and there could be an "ungroup" command that would dissolve the group that could be done prior to editing a specific sub-object |
| 22:32.48 | Erroneous | yup, that's kinda what I was suggesting with de-link. ungroup is better wording :) |
| 22:34.31 | jude- | even better than that: doing arbitrary reflections could be easily solved by simply putting all the sectors into individual groups, to ensure that sub-object manipulation propogates in all of it's clones |
| 22:34.48 | Erroneous | yeah, that's why I brought up grouping |
| 22:35.02 | Erroneous | mirror/rotate/whatever is really not useful unless it's implemented via grouping |
| 22:35.23 | Erroneous | and groups already have the same problem with multiple instances that you were talking about :) |
| 22:35.57 | Erroneous | 'course you get more cool problems with groups |
| 22:35.58 | jude- | how about this: the mirror/rotate/whatever tools cause reflections, etc, and grouping takes care of ensuring perfect symmetry? and ungrouping still provides a way for end-users to make per-quadrant changes? |
| 22:36.19 | *** join/#bzflag zee230 (i=c9130d8e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-f5d9af990521a383) |
| 22:36.24 | jude- | no need for storing axes of symmetry |
| 22:36.44 | jude- | groups take care of it by default; the mirror tool just performs a transformation |
| 22:37.10 | jude- | AAA_awright? |
| 22:37.14 | AAA_awright | HI |
| 22:37.28 | jude- | does that work for you? |
| 22:37.37 | AAA_awright | That solved 1/2 of it |
| 22:37.43 | jude- | what's the other 1/2? |
| 22:38.01 | AAA_awright | Actually, another 5% |
| 22:38.05 | Erroneous | say, I have an object (let's say it's a mesh, with some materials applied to specific faces). call it M. Now I add M and two boxes to group A. Now I add A to B, and shrink it. And I add A to C, and skew it. Now I add B and C to D, and instance it four times around the middle of the map. How do I edit each of those groups? :) |
| 22:38.29 | AAA_awright | When you move the entire group, all the groups should move relitive to the plane or line of symmetry or reflection |
| 22:38.40 | jude- | Erroneous: sub-group rendering is possibl |
| 22:38.42 | jude- | *possible |
| 22:38.47 | jude- | and thus sub-group manipulation |
| 22:38.51 | AAA_awright | I guess |
| 22:39.10 | jude- | AAA_awright: then put those two groups into a larger group |
| 22:39.11 | AAA_awright | But the big issue is solved, editing one objects edits all the others that are the same |
| 22:39.23 | Erroneous | jude-: ok, so now let's say I un-group a box from an instance of D. Now, did I ungroup it from D, from B, or from A? |
| 22:39.29 | AAA_awright | A Good Thing(tm) |
| 22:40.09 | jude- | a box isn't a direct child of D; you'd have to ungroup it from A |
| 22:40.19 | Erroneous | how? |
| 22:40.32 | Erroneous | there are no instances of A |
| 22:40.37 | jude- | there are within D |
| 22:40.48 | jude- | and then within C |
| 22:40.55 | jude- | and B |
| 22:41.33 | jude- | so, ungroup A, leaving instances of A's children strewn throughout the map |
| 22:41.44 | jude- | you can add them to another group if you want |
| 22:42.19 | Erroneous | when I ungroup A, do A's children automatically become members of B and C? |
| 22:42.24 | jude- | B, C, and D just no longer contain group A |
| 22:42.25 | jude- | no |
| 22:42.30 | Erroneous | or do I have like a bazillion Ms and boxes |
| 22:42.42 | jude- | bazillion M's and boxes |
| 22:42.45 | Erroneous | ok, so what's D now? |
| 22:42.52 | Erroneous | there is no D, all it had were A's |
| 22:43.03 | jude- | D is a group containing C and B |
| 22:43.10 | Erroneous | ok, and what are C and B? |
| 22:43.15 | jude- | C and B still show up...just without objects |
| 22:43.19 | jude- | they still hold transformations |
| 22:43.49 | Erroneous | thanks :) |
| 22:43.51 | AAA_awright | Oh, by the way, I finally added team scores, and graphs of team scores are coming next. |
| 22:43.56 | jude- | yay |
| 22:44.00 | jude- | ~AAA_awright++ |
| 22:44.03 | AAA_awright | http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/server/tedius2.dyndns.org:5180 |
| 22:44.48 | jude- | Oooo |
| 22:45.45 | jude- | Erroneous: right-click an object, select "add to group", and choose the group graphically or from a menu? |
| 22:46.43 | Erroneous | jude-: no, I mean, how sub-groups and such are handled and edited...especially when they're just virtual (i.e. have only transformations or matrefs) |
| 22:47.08 | jude- | fortunately, transformations and matrefs are all it needs to register as a node in OpenSceneGraph :) |
| 22:47.16 | jude- | i.e. there is a Transformation node |
| 22:47.27 | jude- | which is derived from the Node class |
| 22:47.38 | jude- | which has an OpenGl state set for adding materials and textures :) |
| 22:47.55 | AAA_awright | jude-: When editing a group, think about what happens in the UI level, i.e. do all the objects not in that group become semitransparent? |
| 22:48.17 | jude- | nah--all objects in the group shade a fuschia color |
| 22:48.17 | Erroneous | sorry, I probably wasn't completely clear..."works" as in "works from an end-user perspective" :) |
| 22:48.45 | jude- | with a fushia ring around them |
| 22:48.58 | AAA_awright | I have worked (and still do when I want to) extensively with a Lego model editor called MLCad, this is where I am drawing all these ideas from |
| 22:49.14 | jude- | is there a Linux port? |
| 22:49.18 | jude- | I'll try it out |
| 22:49.29 | AAA_awright | No, but it uses the LDRAW lego parts library |
| 22:49.59 | AAA_awright | There may be some other editors too, but that is the oldest (closed source, has not been updated for many years) |
| 22:50.14 | jude- | that's too bad |
| 22:50.26 | AAA_awright | I'll check for you |
| 22:51.14 | Erroneous | there are lots of cad packages and map editors available, of many different kinds. many of them have good ideas. none of them can solve all the unique issues associated with bzws. |
| 22:51.33 | AAA_awright | jude-: Appearently it is ported to linux now, last release was mid 2005 though |
| 22:51.59 | AAA_awright | ...and it ways use wine. |
| 22:52.07 | jude- | WINE it is then! |
| 22:52.14 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-067-243.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 22:52.14 | Erroneous | wine ftw! :) |
| 22:52.20 | jude- | it's finally beta! |
| 22:52.38 | AAA_awright | http://www.ldraw.org/ http://www.lm-software.com/mlcad/ are the links for the library and editor |
| 22:52.51 | Erroneous | it's been beta for years :) |
| 22:53.11 | Erroneous | 0.9 was November 2005 :) |
| 22:53.26 | Erroneous | ...and it was alpha for 12 years before that :P |
| 22:53.33 | AAA_awright | Heh |
| 22:53.54 | jude- | the joke being, two measly years, compared to the existance of the project, is miniscule |
| 22:54.04 | Erroneous | someday we're gonna hit 1.0, y'know |
| 22:54.15 | jude- | that'd be cool |
| 22:54.27 | jude- | or virtualization will be so good by then there won't be a need for wine |
| 22:55.01 | Erroneous | there'll always be a need |
| 22:55.38 | Erroneous | virtualization still requires Windows licenses, with all the non-Free-ness that implies |
| 22:56.29 | jude- | I'd bet money that by the time Vi$ta replaces XP in early 2008, a lot of businesses will just put their XP installations within virtual environments on Linux/*nix rather than upgrade |
| 22:57.04 | jude- | that way, the threat of viruses and hackers is minimized, and they can keep their legacy apps |
| 22:57.07 | Erroneous | a lot will just keep running XP regardless |
| 22:57.17 | Erroneous | but you can't ever expand that |
| 22:57.25 | Erroneous | there are only so many XP licenses |
| 22:57.44 | Erroneous | and if MS ever decides to stop re-activating, you won't even be able to move them between machines |
| 22:57.53 | jude- | site licenses give the owners infinite numbers of installations |
| 22:58.02 | Erroneous | not everyone has a site license |
| 22:58.18 | jude- | those who would put their XPs within VMs probably do |
| 22:58.56 | Erroneous | if you wish to make that assumption, fine...but there's still everyone else that needs wine :) |
| 22:59.19 | AAA_awright | Even better, they buy a site license of XP/Vista, and copy the official dlls to Linux for WINE to use. |
| 22:59.28 | jude- | illegal |
| 22:59.34 | Erroneous | ours are faster than theirs anyway |
| 22:59.40 | jude- | site licenses only apply to on-site machines and employee machines |
| 22:59.57 | AAA_awright | On business machines running Linux. |
| 22:59.58 | jude- | i.e. my dad's employers have an XP site license |
| 22:59.59 | Erroneous | you're more likely to see people copying wine dlls to windows machines |
| 23:00.14 | jude- | done that |
| 23:00.25 | jude- | but I also have infinte access to XP due to site licensing |
| 23:00.49 | jude- | ...not that I use it, of course |
| 23:00.53 | blast007 | I have infinite access to XP because of CD-Rs |
| 23:00.58 | jude- | lol |
| 23:01.29 | jude- | actually, a simple dd command can make infinite hard drives with XP :) |
| 23:01.29 | jude- | also done that |
| 23:01.29 | jude- | even the M$ installer thinks it's legit |
| 23:02.38 | jude- | personally, I have yet to see a positive review of Vista |
| 23:02.57 | Erroneous | you won't see one from me |
| 23:03.21 | jude- | me neither--my brother's brand-new laptop shipped with it and it's LETHARGIC |
| 23:03.24 | blast007 | I have to use it at this point vs XP, on my laptop |
| 23:03.24 | purple_cow | vista has a gremlin clock |
| 23:03.27 | purple_cow | that's pretty cool |
| 23:03.31 | blast007 | the XP wireless drivers don't work |
| 23:03.42 | jude- | that really sucks |
| 23:03.58 | blast007 | on XP, I get at most 4KB/sec, and max out one of my CPU cores |
| 23:04.12 | jude- | what's the chipset? |
| 23:04.17 | blast007 | does the same thing when I use the XP drive via NDISwrapper in linux |
| 23:04.42 | blast007 | some Atheros thing |
| 23:04.55 | jude- | eeeek |
| 23:05.14 | jude- | the only *good* atheros card I used was a PCMCIA D-Link card |
| 23:05.20 | blast007 | Atheros AR5005G |
| 23:05.28 | jude- | and *good* ==> actually works without soft-lockups |
| 23:06.00 | blast007 | with XP, I had to turn wifi off just to make the system run smooth |
| 23:06.15 | blast007 | not happy at all with the driver for XP |
| 23:06.40 | blast007 | yet it works great with Vista, and with Ubuntu (which uses MadWifi iirc) |
| 23:08.27 | jude- | that's too bad |
| 23:13.20 | blast007 | but I have linux working nicely on it now, minus wifi |
| 23:13.34 | blast007 | Beryl is fun :) |
| 23:13.36 | jude- | MadWifi doesn't work? |
| 23:13.41 | jude- | yeah, Beryl's a hoot |
| 23:13.49 | blast007 | I haven't tried hard enough to get MadWifi working |
| 23:13.50 | jude- | Compiz will be even better once Beryl gets merged in |
| 23:14.01 | blast007 | I ditched Kubuntu for Dream Linux |
| 23:14.07 | jude- | should be a kernel module available for it |
| 23:14.17 | jude- | yeah, Dream is pretty good |
| 23:14.49 | jude- | so is Mint |
| 23:14.54 | blast007 | I like it more than Kubuntu |
| 23:15.58 | jude- | I've never really been fond of Kubuntu--it's too...barren |
| 23:18.11 | jude- | Ubuntu seems more functional, IMHO |
| 23:18.37 | jude- | (which is really odd coming from me, because I prefer KDE to GNOME) |
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| 23:27.19 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03judecn * r14858 10/trunk/bzworkbench/ (16 files in 6 dirs): Added very early support for materials, fleshed out Model's query() (now commmand()) method to allow for object retreval |
| 23:34.22 | AAA_awright | Tedius: ping |
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| 23:48.30 | Epyon | hey jude- :) |
| 23:48.37 | jude- | hello Epyon |
| 23:48.50 | jude- | be back in about an hour |
| 23:49.00 | Epyon | I'll be here -_- |
| 23:50.32 | AAA_awright | ...Isn't the GSoC for collage students? |
| 23:51.10 | AAA_awright | (sorry) Probably at somewhere I have been. |
| 23:51.51 | blast007 | collage is only for Art School |
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