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| 00:13.16 | trepan | PlayerCustomData -- should that be visible to LuaUser ? |
| 00:13.37 | trepan | don't know how folks are/would be using it |
| 00:16.54 | JeffM | it is new |
| 00:17.12 | JeffM | it can be used to change what was the e-mail addres field (now motto) in the scoreboard |
| 00:17.41 | JeffM | so you could have a plugin set it to the actual team in a leauge game, and change the client to display that in stead of the motto |
| 00:18.15 | trepan | i'll add another call-out specific to the motto, and remove GetPlayerCustomData() from LuaUser |
| 00:18.21 | trepan | it could be used for game state |
| 00:18.36 | JeffM | yeah it could be used for anything you want to store per user |
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| 00:49.11 | *** join/#bzflag starduck_1234 (n=user@85.239.101.240) |
| 00:49.43 | trepan | ah... bzflag.bz isn't in the default DownloadAccess.txt anymore |
| 00:52.11 | trepan | s/ah.../ah, shucks,/ ... disambiguation :) |
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| 01:17.34 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:17.38 | JeffM | just bzflag.org |
| 01:17.52 | JeffM | and we are pulling all the whover.bzflag.org and changing them to bzflag.net |
| 01:18.16 | trepan | actually, just *images.bzflag.org |
| 01:18.20 | JeffM | good |
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| 06:57.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 07:06.14 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 0370.170.97.116 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5339 10/w/Local_chat_filter: /* Mac OS X */ |
| 07:09.52 | *** part/#bzflag TkTech (n=tktech@bas1-ottawa23-1177565046.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 07:31.22 | trepan | http://trepan.bzflag.bz/bzWorld3rd.lua -- quick LuaWorld example for 3D viewing |
| 07:31.30 | trepan | guess I can kill off 'devDriving' now |
| 07:31.50 | trepan | s/3D/3rd person/ :) |
| 07:34.18 | trepan | http://pastebin.ca/1324264 -- the way it should have been posted |
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| 13:12.46 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 13:13.26 | *** topic/#bzflag by Tupone -> http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || Latest Release: 2.0.12 (linux), 2.0.10 (everyone else) || list server downtime scheduled thorughout the week (25JAN-02FEB) |
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| 17:45.43 | leeguy92 | how do i UDP data to a client inside an NAT? |
| 17:45.48 | leeguy92 | *how do i get |
| 17:48.04 | JeffM | your nat should support both UDP in and out if the client starts it |
| 17:48.21 | JeffM | usualy people don't have to do any cofniguration to play from behind a nat |
| 17:48.31 | JeffM | it's only when you host from behind a nat |
| 17:48.52 | leeguy92 | so, the client just needs to send data to the server, and anything the server sends to that port will be directed to the right machine? |
| 17:49.28 | JeffM | that would be how nat works ;) |
| 17:49.45 | JeffM | the nat modifies the packet to have a return port that is in it's NAT port map |
| 17:50.09 | JeffM | so it knows that whatever it gets back from that host on that port, goes to that lan IP |
| 17:50.09 | leeguy92 | ah, cool. that is nice and easy, and non-complicated also. :D |
| 17:50.21 | JeffM | yeah nat is pretty simple |
| 17:50.25 | leeguy92 | so, how long do these ports stay open for? |
| 17:50.39 | JeffM | depends on the nat |
| 17:50.48 | JeffM | but your computer isn't really "listening" on them |
| 17:50.58 | JeffM | so they arn't really open |
| 17:51.31 | JeffM | another computer on the internet could not send anything to that port, cus the nat map has the IP of the server you sent to in the frist place as part of the map |
| 17:53.08 | JeffM | so if you send a message to a.b.c.d, the nat would tell it to respond on port 11111 |
| 17:53.08 | leeguy92 | when i say "open", i mean how long will that port stay pointing to that machine |
| 17:53.08 | JeffM | generaly till it detects a close |
| 17:53.09 | JeffM | then probably some timeout |
| 17:53.09 | leeguy92 | but UDP is connectionless |
| 17:53.09 | leeguy92 | isnt it? |
| 17:53.09 | leeguy92 | ah |
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| 17:53.09 | JeffM | thats why observers can go NR behind crapy nats |
| 17:53.15 | JeffM | most good nats look for UDP trafic to the same host |
| 17:53.26 | JeffM | and combine the UDP and TCP into one port map |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | then it's a lot simpler to controll |
| 17:54.42 | blast007 | technically home routers don't do NAT, they do PAT (Port Address Translation) |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | true |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | well not true |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | they do network translation |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | from the LAN to WAN networks ;) |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | the PAT is just what makes it work over the interwebs |
| 17:54.42 | blast007 | NAT is mapping an IP on the outside to an IP inside |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | and that happens |
| 17:54.50 | leeguy92 | and making port-redirections |
| 17:54.51 | JeffM | it dosn't tell the host to respond to 192.168.0.1 ;) |
| 17:55.04 | blast007 | well, it doesn't map the *whole* IP ;) |
| 17:55.19 | JeffM | it only has one external IP |
| 17:55.20 | blast007 | NAT doesn't do per-port stuff |
| 17:56.04 | JeffM | so it has to map it all back to that one |
| 17:56.04 | JeffM | it's combo of stuff |
| 17:56.04 | JeffM | it works |
| 17:56.04 | blast007 | ;) |
| 17:56.04 | JeffM | if your router dosn't suck |
| 17:56.04 | blast007 | yup, linksys ftw |
| 17:56.04 | leeguy92 | technically it not a router - it a bridge |
| 17:56.04 | leeguy92 | netgear ftw |
| 17:56.16 | JeffM | leeguy92: when there are multiple computers on it, it's a router ;) |
| 17:56.21 | blast007 | netgear is the ones I usually hear problems about.. |
| 17:56.25 | JeffM | a router with one comptuer is a kind of bridge |
| 17:56.39 | JeffM | my 2wire is working quite well |
| 17:57.10 | leeguy92 | im always hearing about problems with belkin and thompson |
| 17:57.23 | JeffM | they are the crapier brands |
| 17:57.27 | leeguy92 | my dg834g seems to work |
| 17:57.39 | blast007 | yeah, maybe I'm thinking of belkin |
| 17:57.58 | JeffM | net gear ain't tht great but they are better then belkin |
| 17:58.03 | leeguy92 | the belkin wireless USB dongles<snigger> are terrible |
| 17:58.12 | leeguy92 | from my xp |
| 17:58.21 | leeguy92 | *experience |
| 17:58.54 | leeguy92 | they end up overheating, and dying after about 2 weeks of not connecting for more than a minute. |
| 18:01.33 | blast007 | quick search on the forum pulls up some topics about netgear routers with UDP issues ;) |
| 18:05.06 | leeguy92 | hmm...the one i read only doesn't block if the source port is the same as the dest port(what a strange bug) |
| 18:05.20 | leeguy92 | *only blocks |
| 18:08.47 | leeguy92 | hows about the bt home hub? :) |
| 18:09.44 | leeguy92 | for a device using open source software, it really screams proprietary-ness in a very "apple" way |
| 18:10.17 | leeguy92 | oh, yea. you people wont of heard of that if you are in the US. |
| 18:14.30 | JeffM | just because you start with open source software dosn't mean you have to use it in an open source way |
| 18:14.51 | JeffM | I mean I could create a system where you had to pay for bzflag using totaly open source software :) |
| 18:15.05 | leeguy92 | like my idea for a bzflag arcade machine |
| 18:15.25 | leeguy92 | does the iphone have java? |
| 18:15.39 | leeguy92 | 1 mo, i will rtfm |
| 18:19.06 | leeguy92 | hmm, it seems steve jobs is saying that nobody uses java any more. |
| 18:19.23 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 0376.183.194.16 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5340 10/w/Ideas: Minor typo |
| 18:19.28 | leeguy92 | <coughs>i disagree</coughs> |
| 18:20.11 | leeguy92 | it probably has something to do with the iphone app store...... |
| 18:20.31 | JeffM | he probably meant in the context of application programing |
| 18:21.02 | leeguy92 | "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain." |
| 18:21.18 | JeffM | yeah there are better things to use nowadays |
| 18:21.30 | leeguy92 | it's kinda a waste. especially since the iphone's processor has the jazelle extensions |
| 18:21.41 | JeffM | so? |
| 18:22.00 | leeguy92 | but....:( |
| 18:22.08 | leeguy92 | :(:(:(:( |
| 18:22.09 | blast007 | leeguy92: my Nokia has a 3D Graphics chip, but no drivers. That's a bigger waste ;) |
| 18:22.14 | JeffM | as a programer you must learn to adapt |
| 18:22.20 | JeffM | times change |
| 18:22.22 | JeffM | you change with them |
| 18:22.37 | JeffM | java has mostly gone to the web now I feel |
| 18:22.57 | leeguy92 | kinda difficult to adapt in this case. the iphone is more closed than a......well....a really closed thing |
| 18:23.26 | blast007 | leeguy92: adapt to the stuff they use.... |
| 18:23.27 | leeguy92 | i was thinking it would be a way of achieving bzflag on the iphone |
| 18:23.41 | leeguy92 | to do that, they want teh monehyz |
| 18:23.43 | blast007 | you can't. it would be another tank game. |
| 18:24.00 | JeffM | leeguy92: no it's not, you learn objective C and move on |
| 18:24.02 | JeffM | it's just a language |
| 18:24.05 | JeffM | not a way of life |
| 18:24.32 | leeguy92 | they still want $$$ to develop apps on the iphone |
| 18:24.41 | leeguy92 | and i barely have $$ |
| 18:25.20 | blast007 | I think you only need to pay if you want to distribute stuff or run it on the device |
| 18:25.28 | blast007 | to just develop it with the emulator you don't have to |
| 18:25.28 | leeguy92 | indeed |
| 18:25.39 | leeguy92 | i guess..... |
| 18:25.46 | JeffM | just beause you want to do something dosn't mean you can with out effort |
| 18:25.53 | JeffM | such is the view of the child |
| 18:26.14 | leeguy92 | but why do it, then? |
| 18:26.35 | JeffM | if that is your view, then you don' truly want to |
| 18:26.44 | JeffM | you do things because you WANT to, and you find a way to do them |
| 18:27.14 | leeguy92 | writing apps for the iphone isn't that appetising to me personally. maybe i will have a think about it |
| 18:27.47 | JeffM | then why are you talking about it and baging on apple if it's not something you want to do |
| 18:27.56 | JeffM | sounds like you just like to complain ;) |
| 18:28.05 | leeguy92 | yes....and: |
| 18:28.30 | leeguy92 | cos it's something that i heard some people wanted |
| 18:28.30 | leeguy92 | if i had an iphone, i would certainly want bzflag on it |
| 18:28.40 | JeffM | a direct port of bzflag to the iphone would be stupid |
| 18:28.47 | JeffM | from a pure gameplay standpoint |
| 18:28.47 | leeguy92 | why? |
| 18:28.53 | JeffM | at the basics, input |
| 18:29.01 | leeguy92 | ah, yea all of that. |
| 18:29.11 | leeguy92 | i would suggest a rewrite |
| 18:29.21 | JeffM | then you are talking about a new game |
| 18:29.25 | leeguy92 | yup |
| 18:29.28 | JeffM | for the iphone that is inspired by bzflag |
| 18:29.34 | leeguy92 | yup |
| 18:29.44 | JeffM | so it's not bzflag ;) |
| 18:29.54 | leeguy92 | nope, it's iBZFlag |
| 18:29.57 | leeguy92 | :p |
| 18:30.01 | JeffM | people think they want bzflag on every platform they have |
| 18:30.03 | JeffM | they are wrong |
| 18:30.11 | JeffM | the iphone is not a gaming platform |
| 18:30.15 | JeffM | it has games, but that's not it's main use |
| 18:30.23 | leeguy92 | shame....cos it has a nice graphics chip |
| 18:30.24 | JeffM | you play phone games when you are waiting |
| 18:30.38 | blast007 | leeguy92: "nice" ? not really |
| 18:30.42 | JeffM | you don't sit down and say "ohh I'm gonna play this game to it's end on my phone" |
| 18:30.51 | leeguy92 | well, nicer than my phone, which doesn't hae one |
| 18:30.52 | blast007 | it's a typical low-power embedded graphics chip |
| 18:30.58 | leeguy92 | *have |
| 18:31.09 | JeffM | leeguy92: that dosn't make it a dedicated gameing platform ;) |
| 18:31.16 | leeguy92 | my phone cost £22 from ASDA(walmart) :D |
| 18:31.18 | JeffM | now bzflag on a psp, could work |
| 18:31.28 | JeffM | as it has the input features of a dedicated gaming system |
| 18:31.38 | leeguy92 | ah......yes........that would be sweeeeeeeeet |
| 18:31.41 | blast007 | would be cool to get BZFlag to run on PS2 linux ;) |
| 18:31.51 | leeguy92 | why doesnt it already? |
| 18:31.59 | blast007 | not sure if it has true GL |
| 18:32.00 | leeguy92 | (i dont have ps2linux btw) |
| 18:32.02 | leeguy92 | ah |
| 18:32.08 | leeguy92 | ps3linux? |
| 18:32.09 | blast007 | older compiler too |
| 18:32.14 | blast007 | probably |
| 18:32.18 | blast007 | but I don't have a PS3 ;) |
| 18:32.18 | *** join/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 18:32.23 | leeguy92 | neither do i |
| 18:32.25 | leeguy92 | :( |
| 18:32.34 | randomparticle | are bz worlds always square? |
| 18:32.44 | leeguy92 | yes |
| 18:32.49 | randomparticle | ok |
| 18:33.00 | JeffM | no |
| 18:33.03 | blast007 | there was something in there to make non-square worlds |
| 18:33.04 | leeguy92 | gah!! wha? |
| 18:33.08 | leeguy92 | cool |
| 18:33.13 | leeguy92 | sry i misled u |
| 18:33.23 | blast007 | [-ws <number of wall sides>] |
| 18:33.39 | JeffM | I'm not sure why you are so quick to answer people leeguy92 you are rather new here and do not know eveything |
| 18:33.39 | blast007 | -ws: numeric value for the number off outer walls (default=4) |
| 18:33.43 | randomparticle | ok |
| 18:33.45 | blast007 | not sure if it actually works |
| 18:33.58 | blast007 | but the other option is to make your own walls |
| 18:33.58 | JeffM | randomparticle: you can define the walls however you want, or use map geometry however, and define the spawn zones however |
| 18:34.09 | JeffM | by default the spawn zones ARE square |
| 18:34.14 | randomparticle | ok |
| 18:34.15 | JeffM | and the walls are as well |
| 18:34.22 | JeffM | but that can all be overwriden |
| 18:34.23 | JeffM | why? |
| 18:34.29 | randomparticle | i have a square map that is off-centre |
| 18:34.38 | randomparticle | what i'd like to do is correct the boundary walls |
| 18:34.52 | JeffM | the map itself dosn't let you define walls |
| 18:35.05 | JeffM | if you want the map to have walls, then you must use map geometry to fake them |
| 18:35.25 | JeffM | and then turn the regular ones "off" |
| 18:35.28 | blast007 | yeah, -ws doesn't seem to do anything |
| 18:35.32 | randomparticle | ok |
| 18:35.41 | randomparticle | will the fake walls look like real boundary walls? |
| 18:35.43 | JeffM | it's rather envolved to define your own walls/world volume |
| 18:35.52 | JeffM | depends on how you define them ;) |
| 18:35.58 | JeffM | if you use a mesh, and that texture sure |
| 18:36.20 | JeffM | but there is no "outter wall" primitive |
| 18:36.32 | leeguy92 | my bzflag clone will have the entire world as a mesh(probably) ;) |
| 18:36.39 | JeffM | leeguy92: good for you |
| 18:36.44 | leeguy92 | ty :D |
| 18:37.04 | leeguy92 | sony on psp homebrew: "I think that is something that is in the works. We certainly see some of the stuff that has been done via homebrew, and it's incredibly creative. And I think we'd like to try and tap into that a little bit more.". |
| 18:37.10 | JeffM | not sure how that statement affects the current conversation other then stroking your ego, but whatever |
| 18:37.47 | leeguy92 | actually, i was wondering if you guys would comment on that.(is it a bad idea) |
| 18:38.02 | JeffM | it would depend on what a "mesh" is |
| 18:38.20 | leeguy92 | stored as an OBJ file, rather than a bunch of primitives |
| 18:38.31 | leeguy92 | like cubes/pyramids etc... |
| 18:38.45 | trepan | bzfs -ws ? |
| 18:39.24 | trepan | heh, 2.0.12 addition, later removed ? |
| 18:39.30 | blast007 | apparently |
| 18:39.32 | JeffM | leeguy92: you will have a harder time drawing and colliding in that poly soup |
| 18:39.43 | *** join/#bzflag leeguy92s (n=leeguy92@host86-168-45-166.range86-168.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:39.53 | JeffM | but sure, whatever you want to do |
| 18:40.09 | leeguy92 | hmm, weird |
| 18:40.18 | JeffM | blast007: it may have been removed cus they didn't redo all the spawn zones and bounds cheat checks |
| 18:41.13 | leeguy92 | i have no experience with game programming, so im just tryin stuff here. |
| 18:41.24 | JeffM | leeguy92: then learn |
| 18:41.34 | leeguy92 | yup, that's wut im doin |
| 18:41.54 | JeffM | no, you are randomly trying stuff in your own game, jumping into the deep end, with out learning how to swim |
| 18:42.02 | JeffM | go read up and learn game programing |
| 18:42.05 | JeffM | THEN make your game |
| 18:42.24 | leeguy92 | i have read up on TONS of stuff.....(it's what i do). but i haven't actually made anything |
| 18:42.28 | leeguy92 | game-wise |
| 18:43.03 | JeffM | cool, so where is your tic-tac-toe game? |
| 18:43.09 | leeguy92 | nowhere |
| 18:43.21 | leeguy92 | oh, wait. for school, i did make a blackjack game |
| 18:43.26 | leeguy92 | in VB5 |
| 18:43.30 | leeguy92 | :p |
| 18:43.30 | blast007 | that's nice |
| 18:43.34 | JeffM | how about in a real language? |
| 18:43.55 | JeffM | and how much have you read on sceenegraphs? |
| 18:44.07 | leeguy92 | i know what a scenegraph is(i think) |
| 18:44.14 | JeffM | so not much |
| 18:44.19 | leeguy92 | nah |
| 18:44.30 | JeffM | that's why you think having a world "as an obj" file is viable ;) |
| 18:44.36 | leeguy92 | is it just a structured representation of the objects in a scene |
| 18:44.42 | leeguy92 | ? |
| 18:44.52 | leeguy92 | *cross out "representation" |
| 18:44.58 | leeguy92 | wrong word |
| 18:45.07 | JeffM | so in your polygon soup, how are you going to figure out what faces to draw and what not to draw? |
| 18:45.15 | leeguy92 | gl does that |
| 18:45.25 | trepan | how? |
| 18:45.27 | leeguy92 | glEnable(GL_DEPTH_TEST) |
| 18:45.30 | leeguy92 | seems to work |
| 18:45.31 | trepan | heh |
| 18:46.00 | JeffM | hah |
| 18:46.02 | JeffM | ok good |
| 18:46.04 | JeffM | go for that |
| 18:46.07 | leeguy92 | looks ok, doesnt it: http://imagebin.org/37230 |
| 18:46.15 | leeguy92 | is there a better way or something? |
| 18:46.22 | JeffM | dude, that's a screen space check |
| 18:46.33 | JeffM | that's going to transform and DRAW every triangle in your world |
| 18:46.39 | JeffM | how many triangles are in your world? |
| 18:47.02 | trepan | ironically, that's what i've been doing lately :) |
| 18:47.06 | leeguy92 | about 20(not a complicated world) |
| 18:47.06 | JeffM | true |
| 18:47.22 | JeffM | how many do you expet to have in your final world? |
| 18:47.23 | trepan | save for the fact that i also have the occlusion queries lined up |
| 18:47.26 | JeffM | remember a box has 12 ;) |
| 18:47.40 | trepan | (and offline octree generation) |
| 18:47.46 | JeffM | fun |
| 18:47.52 | leeguy92 | not gonna be a "final" world. you can run ur own servers. it will be up to the admin |
| 18:47.57 | JeffM | *sigh* |
| 18:48.03 | JeffM | how many do you EXPECT people to have? |
| 18:48.07 | leeguy92 | dunno |
| 18:48.41 | JeffM | guess? |
| 18:48.45 | leeguy92 | some would only have 12, like the bog standard ones with just a floor |
| 18:49.02 | JeffM | and how many triangles are in your tank? |
| 18:49.04 | JeffM | and shots? |
| 18:49.06 | JeffM | etc?? |
| 18:49.08 | leeguy92 | some could have a couple-hundred(15 boxes)...ah, i see where ur goin |
| 18:49.29 | JeffM | openGL does no world space culling |
| 18:49.33 | JeffM | it tries to draw everything |
| 18:49.41 | JeffM | then clips it when it dosn't draw in the viewport |
| 18:50.04 | leeguy92 | i guess i wanna make this playable by people without a very good graphics card. |
| 18:50.05 | JeffM | to make your game fast, you only want to tell GL to draw the things that may be vissable |
| 18:50.16 | leeguy92 | mine is an nvidia 8600(not that good, not that bad) |
| 18:50.16 | JeffM | like you don't send the stuff behind you |
| 18:50.33 | trepan | of course there's a bit of a tradeoff there |
| 18:50.58 | trepan | the CPU culling mechanism takes time too |
| 18:51.08 | JeffM | true |
| 18:51.11 | JeffM | you ballance it |
| 18:51.15 | JeffM | hence the sceenegraph |
| 18:51.22 | leeguy92 | and being as the culling would be in java.... |
| 18:51.35 | trepan | the scenegraph is part of 'the culling mechanism' |
| 18:51.36 | JeffM | it lets you do quick exclusions with hopefully less work then drawing |
| 18:51.37 | leeguy92 | that is gonna be about 10-time slower at least, isn't it? |
| 18:51.46 | JeffM | lee bout 30 |
| 18:52.01 | JeffM | but still that'll probably be faster then card culling |
| 18:52.02 | leeguy92 | i get about 150fps at the mo. |
| 18:52.10 | JeffM | that's just your flip rate |
| 18:52.12 | leeguy92 | with a bunch of tanks |
| 18:52.28 | JeffM | what is your miniimum hardware target? |
| 18:52.30 | leeguy92 | well, what else are we trying to speed up? |
| 18:52.31 | trepan | also depends on whether or not he's using dlist / vbos |
| 18:52.46 | leeguy92 | if all of the logic is on the server? |
| 18:52.52 | trepan | (and how the GL implementation works with it) |
| 18:53.16 | JeffM | trepan: you really thing he's even got as far as a list ;) |
| 18:53.20 | trepan | what's the target? jogl? on what kinds of machines? |
| 18:53.23 | JeffM | when he's reading the world from one OBJ ;) |
| 18:53.26 | leeguy92 | jogl |
| 18:53.59 | leeguy92 | JeffM: that is easily changable anyway. |
| 18:54.07 | trepan | leeguy92: learn to use GL display lists |
| 18:54.10 | leeguy92 | if it turns out ot be too slow |
| 18:54.20 | JeffM | leeguy92: not if you build your engine around the concept of a polygon soup |
| 18:54.22 | trepan | (simplest mechanism to help you speed up rendering) |
| 18:54.32 | JeffM | honestly, I'd go look at third party engines |
| 18:54.35 | JeffM | learn to use them |
| 18:54.39 | JeffM | then you can see what they do |
| 18:54.46 | JeffM | that will get you a game faster |
| 18:55.46 | leeguy92 | the display list thing looks damned useful |
| 18:56.26 | JeffM | it can be |
| 18:56.38 | JeffM | but only if you can have a way to group your world into lists |
| 18:57.18 | leeguy92 | how about 1 big list of triangles? |
| 18:57.34 | JeffM | again, that's going to draw everyhing |
| 18:57.40 | JeffM | it'll be slighly faster as a list |
| 18:57.46 | JeffM | but not as fast as if you did culling |
| 18:58.23 | leeguy92 | ah....so you mean only drawing parts of the world that the player would see. like if you were inside a building, there is no point in rendering whats outside |
| 18:58.35 | leeguy92 | so, you would make an "inbuilding" list |
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| 18:59.02 | JeffM | if it was me, I'd build lists of things that are close together |
| 18:59.07 | JeffM | then cull those things |
| 18:59.08 | trepan | fwiw, wavefront obj does support grouping |
| 18:59.16 | trepan | grouping and objects that is |
| 18:59.22 | JeffM | and draw the few lists that are vissible |
| 18:59.24 | JeffM | that it does |
| 18:59.29 | JeffM | so an obj may be fine |
| 18:59.32 | leeguy92 | does bzflag do that? i wouldn't have thought so btw. |
| 18:59.45 | JeffM | leeguy92: what do you think an "Object" is |
| 18:59.54 | JeffM | a grouping of trangles that are near each other |
| 18:59.57 | JeffM | and can be culled |
| 19:00.08 | leeguy92 | collection of polys |
| 19:00.15 | leeguy92 | yay, i got it right ;) |
| 19:00.48 | JeffM | we used to do sphere tests on all the objects against the frustum to cull, but now we use an octree |
| 19:00.49 | trepan | iirc, obj 'groups' or more about polygon clusters with automatic normal generation |
| 19:00.56 | trepan | s/or more/are more |
| 19:01.13 | JeffM | trepan: the smothing group is optional |
| 19:01.19 | JeffM | and you can have more then one in a group |
| 19:01.20 | leeguy92 | the whole culling thing would only work if it were possible to get far enough away from objects so as to not see them, though. |
| 19:01.35 | JeffM | leeguy92: you mean like when a box is behind you? |
| 19:01.37 | leeguy92 | i dont plan on having maps that big. |
| 19:01.37 | trepan | more than one group in an object |
| 19:01.50 | leeguy92 | ah...so you mean culling stuff behind you. |
| 19:01.52 | leeguy92 | riiight |
| 19:02.06 | JeffM | leeguy92: anything outside the frustum isn't vis |
| 19:02.23 | leeguy92 | i know what that means!! |
| 19:02.41 | JeffM | trepan: the normal generation is the s key, for smothing group it maps to the old 3dstudio groups. |
| 19:02.57 | leeguy92 | but seriously..... i might do that in the preprocessing stage |
| 19:02.59 | JeffM | but yeah most exporters do a g group for each s |
| 19:03.05 | JeffM | leeguy92: how can you? |
| 19:03.08 | JeffM | you move IN the world |
| 19:03.18 | JeffM | you want to store what is vissable for each 3d postion? |
| 19:03.41 | leeguy92 | noooooooooooooooooooooooooo. |
| 19:03.41 | leeguy92 | when i load the OBJ, i will group triangles together into scenelists |
| 19:03.59 | JeffM | good luck with that ;) |
| 19:04.21 | leeguy92 | hmmm....you dont sound like you are convinced that this is an awesome idea :p |
| 19:04.33 | JeffM | it isn't |
| 19:04.36 | leeguy92 | aww |
| 19:04.38 | leeguy92 | why? |
| 19:04.38 | JeffM | you may get it to work for what you need |
| 19:04.44 | JeffM | but it is now "awesome" |
| 19:04.57 | JeffM | you are not the first person to try and solve the culling problem |
| 19:05.03 | leeguy92 | i know..... |
| 19:05.07 | JeffM | others have done much better |
| 19:05.15 | leeguy92 | im sure they have |
| 19:05.18 | trepan | culling is the easy one, transparency is the pita |
| 19:05.19 | JeffM | but you seem to refuse to even go look at what has been done |
| 19:05.27 | JeffM | mmmmm bsp trees |
| 19:05.38 | leeguy92 | so, for this task, it would be beneficial to do that? |
| 19:05.41 | JeffM | bsp sorted portal cells |
| 19:05.57 | JeffM | leeguy92: depends if you are trying to learn game programing or just being a quick hack? |
| 19:06.40 | leeguy92 | the first one. really, though, this is gonna be an evolution, with a defined protocol, for which possibly many clients, and many servers will be written for |
| 19:06.54 | leeguy92 | well....maybe not "many" |
| 19:07.06 | JeffM | then you should go read up on the various sceenegraph techniques and learn how to cull |
| 19:07.22 | JeffM | sceenegraph and data format are linked |
| 19:07.24 | leeguy92 | the center of the project is really the server |
| 19:07.34 | leeguy92 | ah, ok. methinks i will do that |
| 19:07.50 | trepan | heh, transparency is an easy one too, now translucency ;-) |
| 19:09.02 | leeguy92 | the only tranlucency i will be needing is that of the HUD. the graphics are gonna be real basic |
| 19:09.08 | leeguy92 | no texturing etc.... |
| 19:09.35 | JeffM | yeah you'll need all the cycles you can get for your on card culling ;) |
| 19:09.51 | leeguy92 | ive tried learning a sh*tload of stuff at the same time as diving into the deep end. i end up nowhere. |
| 19:10.16 | leeguy92 | the code just ends up changing and changing and changing, to the point where nothing works |
| 19:10.24 | JeffM | many young people do that |
| 19:10.38 | leeguy92 | well, i certainly do |
| 19:10.40 | JeffM | start at the begining, and work your way thru it |
| 19:10.45 | leeguy92 | gah |
| 19:10.47 | JeffM | there are lots of tutorials on gaming |
| 19:11.21 | leeguy92 | <winces>too....much........sense-making....logical...thought....ARRGH!! |
| 19:12.59 | leeguy92 | hmm...by grouping into scenelists, it seems like im gonna be spending a hell of a lot of cycles deciding which to draw and which not to |
| 19:13.17 | leeguy92 | which in java, i would imagine could be a bad thing |
| 19:14.13 | JeffM | you always seem to be skirting javaisms, perhaps java is not the best for the project ;) |
| 19:14.14 | leeguy92 | actually....scratch that, it was a silly thing to say |
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| 19:15.05 | leeguy92 | the only reason im using java is because of the nature of the project. it's gotta be able to work via a web browser |
| 19:15.14 | JeffM | why? |
| 19:15.25 | leeguy92 | i dunno, why is bzflag about tanks? |
| 19:15.32 | leeguy92 | why not dolphins? |
| 19:15.45 | JeffM | you can change it to be dolphins ;) |
| 19:16.02 | leeguy92 | i was thinking about silly-looking projectiles, actually ;) |
| 19:16.16 | leeguy92 | bananas/hammers etc... |
| 19:16.44 | leeguy92 | maybe a special flag that makes your tank go really big so you can crush everything |
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| 19:35.31 | CBG | Might be fun to re-do BZFlag in XNA :) |
| 19:37.58 | joevano | CBG: i appoint you to head up the conversion ;) |
| 19:39.16 | CBG | joevano: Hehe, I could do it as a single player game, sure. No idea about network code though. :( |
| 19:42.08 | leeguy92 | XNA - cross platform? |
| 19:43.10 | CBG | Yeah, Windows and 360. |
| 19:44.54 | blast007 | and work is being done to port XNA to the mono project |
| 19:45.15 | blast007 | http://code.google.com/p/monoxna/ |
| 19:45.21 | CBG | wow |
| 19:45.43 | blast007 | so imagine being able to run the same binary on Windows, Linux, and OSX ;) |
| 19:46.06 | leeguy92 | that is slightly disturbing(for me) |
| 19:46.10 | CBG | That is very cool... |
| 19:46.17 | blast007 | (assuming it works the same way as the regular mono stuff. if not, then maybe a rebuild) |
| 19:46.29 | CBG | Makes me even more sad that I'm not developing on XNA at uni anymore. |
| 19:46.41 | blast007 | definately not the *best* solution |
| 19:46.43 | blast007 | but it's neat |
| 19:46.47 | leeguy92 | it would be cooler if mono wasn't being dragged along behind microsoft. |
| 19:47.29 | JeffM | mono is awesome |
| 19:47.42 | JeffM | leeguy92: it's actuyaly pushed ahead of them ;) |
| 19:47.49 | CBG | Eh? Mono is open source... leeguy92 |
| 19:47.51 | leeguy92 | unfortunate, that open source is so weak, that so much effort must go into measuring up to another company. |
| 19:47.54 | JeffM | I used to think like you did, then got over my language hangups |
| 19:47.58 | JeffM | it's REALLY cool |
| 19:47.59 | leeguy92 | but that's life |
| 19:48.19 | JeffM | you don't really know what mono is do you? |
| 19:48.24 | leeguy92 | i do |
| 19:48.31 | CBG | Wow... |
| 19:48.31 | leeguy92 | C# implementation |
| 19:48.36 | JeffM | no |
| 19:48.47 | leeguy92 | or is it the .net thingy for open source? |
| 19:48.50 | leeguy92 | one of those |
| 19:48.52 | CBG | JeffM: respect man. ;) A couple years ago, you would have snapped by now! xD |
| 19:48.53 | JeffM | it is a set of .net compatabile libs |
| 19:49.05 | leeguy92 | yea, the last one |
| 19:49.06 | leeguy92 | ;) |
| 19:49.10 | JeffM | it just happens to implement the same calls as MS .net |
| 19:49.14 | JeffM | but also adds it's own |
| 19:49.18 | JeffM | you can run mono on windows |
| 19:49.35 | CBG | see http://www.mono-project.com/FAQ:_General What is Mono⢠exactly? ... |
| 19:49.57 | leeguy92 | but ms is still pretty much in the driver seat, isn't it? if they implement a new function, mono has to try and keep up.(at least that's how i understood it) |
| 19:50.02 | JeffM | loves typing mono app.exe :) |
| 19:50.07 | leeguy92 | is sometimes wrong |
| 19:50.12 | JeffM | leeguy92: they can if they want |
| 19:50.18 | JeffM | C# is faily well designed |
| 19:50.24 | JeffM | it's done quite smartly |
| 19:50.27 | leeguy92 | im sure it is |
| 19:50.35 | leeguy92 | im not saying it's bad because it's M$ |
| 19:50.37 | JeffM | so far the mono group has chosen to implemnt new stuff |
| 19:50.44 | JeffM | no, you are infering it ;) |
| 19:50.57 | leeguy92 | no, you are infering, i am implying |
| 19:51.00 | JeffM | some stuff from mono has also made it back into the MS C# |
| 19:51.00 | leeguy92 | :P |
| 19:51.11 | leeguy92 | i think |
| 19:51.14 | JeffM | yes MS is a big part of it, they have a big stake in it |
| 19:51.16 | leeguy92 | :-/ |
| 19:51.19 | blast007 | doesn't Microsoft actually contribute to the mono project too? |
| 19:51.23 | JeffM | they do |
| 19:51.43 | JeffM | there are other big companies that have big stakes in other open source projects |
| 19:51.56 | JeffM | there is some big one that has a huge stake in SVN |
| 19:52.06 | JeffM | and pretty much anything they do will get in, etc.. |
| 19:52.12 | leeguy92 | it's amazing how many different fronts that company has....there's steve ballmer with his "OPEN SOURCE IS A CANCER ON THE WORLD OF SOFTWARE"............. |
| 19:52.21 | JeffM | he is a fool |
| 19:52.29 | joevano | leeguy92: many companies have big stakes in technologies that are supported by open-source |
| 19:52.30 | JeffM | and is not representive of everything at MS |
| 19:52.38 | leeguy92 | don't forget the developers... |
| 19:52.43 | JeffM | you can stop now |
| 19:52.45 | JeffM | seriously |
| 19:52.49 | leeguy92 | ok, fine |
| 19:52.56 | JeffM | no need to make yourself as big a fool has he is |
| 19:53.00 | JeffM | he's a salesman |
| 19:53.04 | JeffM | not a policy decider |
| 19:53.19 | leeguy92 | so...who does make the rules? |
| 19:53.25 | leeguy92 | if not him |
| 19:53.26 | JeffM | the board |
| 19:53.32 | JeffM | it IS a publicly held company |
| 19:53.41 | JeffM | he's not even majority stockholder |
| 19:53.49 | JeffM | he's a high level sales manager basicly |
| 19:53.55 | JeffM | a frontman |
| 19:54.33 | JeffM | the .net language team has it's own governance board ;) |
| 19:54.35 | CBG | Not even a good one.. ;) Lets have Bill Gates back. |
| 19:54.39 | leeguy92 | i gotta learn more about this stuff |
| 19:54.56 | JeffM | you know the basics of how C# came to be right? |
| 19:55.00 | CBG | How old are you, leeguy92? :) |
| 19:55.07 | leeguy92 | i know that MS did the spec |
| 19:55.08 | leeguy92 | 16 |
| 19:55.17 | JeffM | leeguy92: it's J++ 2.0 |
| 19:55.18 | CBG | Ok :) |
| 19:55.25 | JeffM | with the suck of java taken out |
| 19:55.38 | JeffM | MS wanted to make J++ 2.0 |
| 19:55.40 | JeffM | sun said no |
| 19:55.48 | JeffM | so they refactored it into C# |
| 19:56.02 | JeffM | and then found that the CLR makes a LOT of crap really easy |
| 19:56.08 | JeffM | so they bound a ton of other languages to it |
| 19:56.40 | JeffM | so it has it's roots in java |
| 19:57.02 | JeffM | they went and took the best ideas that came out of the java type movement and expanded on it |
| 19:57.33 | JeffM | personaly I think java is loved by it's devotiees so much cus it was the first to do the "run anywhere" thing |
| 19:57.40 | JeffM | but it isn't by far the only or the last |
| 19:57.58 | leeguy92 | i dont love java btw.... im not using it because of some kind of weird attachment or devotion |
| 19:58.15 | leeguy92 | im using it simply because everyone's browser has a java plugin |
| 19:58.17 | JeffM | you are using it cus you want to make a browser game? |
| 19:58.21 | leeguy92 | correct |
| 19:58.23 | JeffM | mine dosn't |
| 19:58.26 | JeffM | never isntalled it |
| 19:58.35 | JeffM | I have javscript |
| 19:58.37 | JeffM | but not java |
| 19:58.41 | JeffM | why not use flash? |
| 19:58.49 | JeffM | it's much more suited to what you want to do |
| 19:59.05 | leeguy92 | didnt know you could do high-poly 3d with flash |
| 19:59.16 | blast007 | flash 10 can do 3D acceleration |
| 19:59.23 | leeguy92 | or any 3d for that matter |
| 19:59.24 | leeguy92 | ah |
| 19:59.34 | JeffM | you arn't doing high poly with java, you are using java bindings to openGL ;) |
| 19:59.35 | blast007 | iirc |
| 19:59.45 | JeffM | gl is doing the stuff |
| 19:59.54 | leeguy92 | aaaaanyway....i wanted to get some gl experience |
| 19:59.56 | blast007 | I think they're trying to get away from Shockwave and pushing that functionality into Flash |
| 19:59.59 | JeffM | it woudl be reasonable to at least look into doing a similar thing with flash |
| 20:00.25 | JeffM | if you want GL experience do the nehe tuts |
| 20:00.30 | JeffM | they are great |
| 20:00.56 | leeguy92 | im using that as a reference for this |
| 20:01.11 | JeffM | hugs tao :) |
| 20:01.20 | TD-Linux | flash costs money though :( |
| 20:01.23 | leeguy92 | yea |
| 20:01.32 | JeffM | true |
| 20:01.33 | leeguy92 | that is one of the big turnoffs for me |
| 20:01.41 | JeffM | any specific reason you want it as a browser game? |
| 20:01.43 | leeguy92 | proprietary = Nooooooooo! |
| 20:01.54 | leeguy92 | cos it doesn't already exist |
| 20:02.03 | JeffM | ohh to be 16 again |
| 20:02.06 | JeffM | ok |
| 20:02.09 | JeffM | well good luck with it |
| 20:02.13 | leeguy92 | and i can play it anywhere |
| 20:02.14 | blast007 | pfft, doesn't exist.. |
| 20:02.15 | leeguy92 | ty |
| 20:02.22 | JeffM | everything exists |
| 20:02.23 | blast007 | there's already tank games written for the browser |
| 20:02.38 | blast007 | there's been one around for probably 8 years that was done in Shockwave |
| 20:02.51 | leeguy92 | u talking about tanktrouble? |
| 20:03.02 | leeguy92 | that is 2d, and has no networking |
| 20:03.24 | TD-Linux | 3d games are somewhat rare |
| 20:03.25 | leeguy92 | even if there does exist a networked 3d browser based, banana-shooting tank game. i wanna make one |
| 20:03.31 | TD-Linux | 'cept for the old shockwave ones |
| 20:03.37 | leeguy92 | yet another reason to do it ;) |
| 20:03.39 | TD-Linux | they do exist though, just not the way you want them ;) |
| 20:03.48 | blast007 | no, I'm talking about a 3D game |
| 20:03.54 | blast007 | Tanks Wars |
| 20:04.29 | blast007 | if there's any hint as to the age of the game, for Mac users, it only works for OS9 :P |
| 20:05.59 | TD-Linux | hmm? a shockwave game only running on OS9? |
| 20:06.50 | blast007 | TD-Linux: yeah, sounds odd, but that's what it says ;) |
| 20:07.01 | blast007 | maybe they mean it doesn't run on anything *lower* than that |
| 20:07.16 | leeguy92 | cannot find tanks wars |
| 20:07.26 | leeguy92 | well, i found one, but that wasnt like you describes |
| 20:07.30 | leeguy92 | *described |
| 20:07.36 | blast007 | shockwave.com, search for tank.. |
| 20:08.02 | blast007 | it's not a network game, but it is 3D |
| 20:08.17 | JeffM | heck, google search for browser tank game |
| 20:08.37 | JeffM | leeguy92: there is no need to be totaly unique and break new ground when you are LEARNING |
| 20:08.53 | JeffM | there is plenty of time for that later |
| 20:09.00 | leeguy92 | yea, that is why my game looks a teeensy weeeensy bit like bzflag |
| 20:09.11 | JeffM | if you want to learn then learn |
| 20:09.25 | JeffM | if you want to invoate, LEARN what is done, master it, THEN inovate |
| 20:09.44 | leeguy92 | that's the plan |
| 20:09.57 | JeffM | no, you are trying to make a masterpeice with out even knowing the basics |
| 20:10.04 | JeffM | learn your GL in C++ or smoething |
| 20:10.08 | JeffM | learn your gaming |
| 20:10.16 | JeffM | THEN learn the limits of the browser |
| 20:10.26 | JeffM | see what you can do with it, to apply your game knowledge |
| 20:10.34 | leeguy92 | browser limits = security sandbox |
| 20:10.36 | leeguy92 | i thought |
| 20:10.44 | leeguy92 | JOGL uses the same named calls anyway |
| 20:10.46 | JeffM | see, you don't even know for sure |
| 20:11.15 | leeguy92 | im saying that to be curtious....and to indicate that im willing to accept there are other limitations |
| 20:11.22 | leeguy92 | that i dont know about |
| 20:11.44 | JeffM | attention leauge channels... |
| 20:11.57 | JeffM | if you don't start your channel with a ##, you will get booted soon |
| 20:12.01 | JeffM | well in a while |
| 20:12.05 | JeffM | so start changing now :) |
| 20:13.50 | SportChick | if you need any assistance switching over, ask me or Manu |
| 20:14.12 | Manu | :) |
| 20:17.30 | JeffM | looks like the major leagues have changed already |
| 20:19.10 | JeffM | dub, divi, pillbox etc.. will have to change as well |
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| 20:41.37 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 0376.204.47.190 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5341 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: |
| 20:42.08 | JeffM | heh, wiki edits |
| 20:45.31 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5342 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: remove non official # channels from the list cus freenode will be removing them. add a note about using ## |
| 20:48.30 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5343 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: missed #inleague |
| 20:51.14 | brlcad | woot :) |
| 20:51.27 | brlcad | *really* likes wiki edit notifications |
| 20:52.07 | JeffM | heh |
| 20:52.27 | ruskie | tries to build brlcad and tries to figure out why people insist on including tons of libs with their sources all the time... |
| 21:00.11 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=fatass__@bzflag/player/ThinkDifferent) |
| 21:05.33 | *** join/#bzflag Yassen (n=chatzill@pool-98-117-128-137.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:41.06 | CIA-66 | BZFlag: 03Thumper 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5344 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: Fix typo |
| 22:27.31 | *** join/#bzflag leeguy92s_ego (n=leeguy92@host86-168-45-166.range86-168.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:27.40 | leeguy92s_ego | purrrrr |
| 22:45.02 | *** join/#bzflag Gabe_G23|bzflag (n=Gabe@unaffiliated/GabeG23/x-028472) |
| 22:47.23 | KTL | for the svn trunk bzfs, how can i have more than 1 bot? it removes the others currently |
| 22:47.36 | KTL | cant really find a server variable for it |
| 22:47.46 | blast007 | KTL: you have to adjust your server to allow more than 2 players per IP |
| 22:48.19 | blast007 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:48.41 | KTL | it's nowhere in the wiki yet |
| 22:48.52 | KTL | ah that is in the svn manual i suppose |
| 22:49.01 | blast007 | no, that's in 'bzfs -help' :P |
| 22:49.09 | KTL | good :) |
| 22:49.12 | blast007 | ;) |
| 22:49.21 | blast007 | probably in the manual too though, didn't check |
| 22:49.26 | KTL | ow it has a readable -help now |
| 22:49.32 | KTL | an improvement |
| 22:51.09 | blast007 | -botsPerIP might count the actual player too, not sure |
| 22:51.29 | KTL | it works fine |
| 23:36.50 | *** join/#bzflag mindnull (n=mindnull@71-90-96-211.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com) |
| 23:49.40 | *** join/#bzflag FastLizard4 (i=FastLiza@wikipedia/FastLizard4) |
| 23:51.39 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=khazhy@bzflag/player/Me1) |