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| 00:22.51 | AAA_awright | I still can't help but wonder if there is a faster way to authenticate with servers |
| 00:23.52 | AAA_awright | A few seconds lag teleporting between servers doesn't seem that appeling to me (I like the idea though) |
| 00:25.05 | Wyk3d | AAA_awright: bzauthd could probably give a better throughput ;) |
| 00:25.36 | AAA_awright | idk, raw HTTP is pretty fast |
| 00:25.53 | AAA_awright | I was thinking more along the lines of cryptographic auth though |
| 00:26.30 | AAA_awright | Wyk3d: Yes, in any case a purpose built C daemon is going to beat any other server |
| 00:27.45 | Wyk3d | also, during this "teleporting between servers", you may do the actual authentication beforehand |
| 00:28.08 | Wyk3d | not sure if i understood correctly .. |
| 00:28.35 | AAA_awright | How so? You send an authentication token and connect (just don't join) to all the servers with teleporters beforehand? |
| 00:28.39 | Wyk3d | if you know that it is possible to teleport to another server, then when logging into a server, you also send the auth data to the other one |
| 00:28.45 | AAA_awright | Yeah |
| 00:31.55 | AAA_awright | I considered a while ago, something similar to how HTTPS works, each client encrypts a timestamp and the server name it is connecting to (so it cannot be re-used) which is signed by the client with the certificate containing the players BZID and callsign, and a 48-hour (perhaps) expiration signed by the list server |
| 00:32.17 | blast007 | AAA_awright: the slow part now is probably the phpBB3 crap |
| 00:32.34 | AAA_awright | With the list server, how so? |
| 00:32.44 | blast007 | 3MB of extra memory just to auth to the phpBB3 users table |
| 00:33.10 | AAA_awright | It gets the password right from the database, is that slow? |
| 00:33.49 | blast007 | the password isn't the slow part |
| 00:34.10 | blast007 | it loads about 3MB of includes to handle UTF-8 |
| 00:34.33 | AAA_awright | Between PHP and MySQL? |
| 00:34.49 | blast007 | yeah |
| 00:34.55 | Wyk3d | AAA_awright: not sure what you want to achive with that encryption, as opposed to authing to the daemon with RSA, getting a token and passing it along with the callsign to the server to be verified, the token also has an expiration time |
| 00:34.58 | blast007 | the phpBB3 stuff is all UTF now |
| 00:36.19 | AAA_awright | Wyk3d: There would be no network connections needed. When the client connects it generates a certificate and gets it vertified and signed by the list server, after that no network is needed |
| 00:36.23 | AAA_awright | That would be the speed up |
| 00:36.57 | Wyk3d | where is the extra network needed otherwise ? |
| 00:37.13 | AAA_awright | The client needs to get a token then the server needs to verify it |
| 00:37.26 | Wyk3d | i see |
| 00:37.42 | Wyk3d | there is a problem with that |
| 00:37.48 | Wyk3d | you are doing it through the server |
| 00:38.00 | Wyk3d | and the server is not a trusted party |
| 00:38.07 | AAA_awright | Through bzfs? |
| 00:38.42 | Wyk3d | yes bzfs cannot be trusted with the client's password |
| 00:38.50 | blast007 | bzfs doesn't get the password |
| 00:39.03 | Wyk3d | via AAA_awright's method it would ? |
| 00:39.12 | AAA_awright | It isn't trusted with the clients password, it just verifies the list server signature is correct and the BZID is the same |
| 00:39.14 | blast007 | no |
| 00:39.50 | AAA_awright | And that the time isn't expired |
| 00:40.18 | Wyk3d | how is the signature generated ? |
| 00:40.25 | Wyk3d | the client connects to the listserver ? |
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| 00:40.34 | blast007 | AAA_awright: bzfs still has to ask the list server |
| 00:40.40 | blast007 | so I really don't see how it saves that much time |
| 00:40.47 | blast007 | just optimize the way it currently works |
| 00:40.52 | blast007 | the list server code is horrible |
| 00:41.24 | AAA_awright | It would need to ask the list server if its certificate has changed, only once a day maybe |
| 00:41.26 | blast007 | the current auth is a hack |
| 00:41.40 | blast007 | I don't like that idea |
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| 00:41.46 | AAA_awright | Not that hacks are a bad thing, they just don't work for very long usually :) |
| 00:42.08 | blast007 | because then if your password gets leaked, someone could have a valid certificate for a day, even if you change your password :P |
| 00:42.45 | Wyk3d | you don't need the actual password |
| 00:42.48 | AAA_awright | It would only work on servers though. You could send a special ghost certificate maybe |
| 00:43.00 | Wyk3d | just sniff the certificate/bzid pair |
| 00:43.09 | Wyk3d | and you have a free pass to any other server |
| 00:43.56 | blast007 | AAA_awright: you're just making it more complicated without solving any problem |
| 00:44.20 | AAA_awright | Wyk3d: No, the client signs the current time and server, it only works once |
| 00:44.21 | blast007 | do you actually know WHY it's slow? |
| 00:44.44 | AAA_awright | It has to make two HTP queries |
| 00:44.54 | blast007 | why should that be slow? |
| 00:45.03 | AAA_awright | Not just HTTP, over Apache/PHP |
| 00:45.07 | blast007 | 19:25:36 < AAA_awright> idk, raw HTTP is pretty fast |
| 00:45.19 | AAA_awright | Yeah |
| 00:45.24 | blast007 | make the PHP faster |
| 00:45.55 | AAA_awright | The PHP looks pretty good to me, the problem might be indexes or Apache (I can't tell) |
| 00:46.07 | blast007 | what PHP were you looking at? |
| 00:46.23 | blast007 | we switch databases 2 to 4 times in a single request |
| 00:47.41 | AAA_awright | I had a solution to fix that a while back, I ought to see what I did with that |
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| 00:48.11 | AAA_awright | blast007: Yeah, you are right, I was thinking that was a MySQL problem |
| 00:48.56 | AAA_awright | blast007: Is the list server using your 2.0 version now, I actually have not kept up to date with the list server in the past few months |
| 00:49.03 | blast007 | AAA_awright: no |
| 00:49.31 | AAA_awright | k |
| 00:49.44 | blast007 | this one: http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag/trunk/db/bzfls.php?view=markup |
| 00:50.24 | AAA_awright | That is what I thought |
| 00:51.50 | AAA_awright | @mysql_query("SET NAMES 'utf8'", $link); |
| 00:51.50 | AAA_awright | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:52.29 | blast007 | it is |
| 00:52.42 | blast007 | otherwise the queries into the phpBB3 database didn't work right |
| 00:53.18 | AAA_awright | Is that what you were saying takes a while to load? It doesn't seem to take me a long time (not that I noticed in the past, using SET NAMED utf8) |
| 00:53.26 | blast007 | no |
| 00:53.33 | blast007 | the three includes from phpBB3 |
| 00:53.44 | blast007 | those alone add like 3MB of memory usage to PHP |
| 00:53.49 | blast007 | for each request |
| 00:54.06 | AAA_awright | Ahh, I didn't even see that |
| 01:02.49 | blast007 | probably not worth putting much effort into it right now, because of the possibility of bzauthd getting worked on more |
| 01:04.02 | blast007 | as someone else had said, even if we don't have the new auth system out before 3.0.0 comes, we already have to make a backwards compatible interface for 2.0.x/1.10 |
| 01:06.31 | a_meteorite | blast007: then why isn't browsing the forums so slow? :P |
| 01:06.58 | blast007 | a_meteorite: because the forum doesn't include those files every load, just when you login |
| 01:07.07 | blast007 | I just hacked them in quick |
| 01:07.10 | blast007 | to the list |
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| 01:18.54 | a_meteorite | ah |
| 01:19.26 | a_meteorite | 3MB is a LOT of PHP just for the libs required for logging in... a lot :\ |
| 01:19.26 | blast007 | well, and I might even be wrong on that |
| 01:19.39 | blast007 | (on the phpbb3 just using them for logging in) |
| 01:19.41 | blast007 | yeah |
| 01:19.53 | blast007 | it's mostly for the UTF stuff |
| 01:19.57 | blast007 | UTF8* |
| 01:20.18 | a_meteorite | wheee. wow. |
| 01:20.46 | a_meteorite | python sure doesn't have that problem and python 3.0 is UTF-8 all the way :) |
| 01:20.59 | blast007 | the .\includes\utf\data\ directory has 1.79MB of files |
| 01:21.03 | a_meteorite | prepares for lart |
| 01:21.08 | blast007 | and it's all PHP file |
| 01:21.15 | a_meteorite | jeeez |
| 01:21.31 | blast007 | the big one is recode_cjk.php |
| 01:21.35 | blast007 | 1.4MB |
| 01:21.54 | a_meteorite | is there not a way to cache those PHP files? |
| 01:21.59 | a_meteorite | or FastCGI or something...? |
| 01:22.03 | a_meteorite | brb |
| 01:22.14 | blast007 | better to just move to LDAP :P |
| 01:25.58 | delusional | my server is segfault at every shutdown.. bt http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/d3163f13b |
| 01:26.33 | trepan | which svn rev? |
| 01:27.06 | delusional | I get a completely new set of source and compile on sundays.. |
| 01:27.15 | delusional | a couple hours old |
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| 01:31.35 | AAA_awright | Three files just for utf8_clean_string? |
| 01:32.08 | blast007 | yeah, iirc |
| 01:35.14 | AAA_awright | blast007: Can't you let MySQL do that? It has a number of functions that normalize text (not too expansive, but I maybe it would suit the need better) |
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| 02:07.28 | AAA_awright | http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.mb-strtolower.php and a few regexes may also work |
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| 06:03.58 | kumarabhi | irc://irc.GIMPNet.org |
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| 07:56.45 | kumarabhi | s |
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| 08:55.17 | jcp | I was reading about hosting a server that is public, and it says that cheat servers aren't allowed |
| 08:55.21 | jcp | What, exactly, is a cheat server? |
| 08:56.05 | jcp | Here's my question: would a server that spawns people in different places based on who they'd killed and perhaps targets that they had fired at be considered a cheat server and therefore banned from the public server list? |
| 08:57.13 | jcp | Or a server that feeds different non-gameplay-affecting variables to players, so that, for example, each player has a different sky color? |
| 08:57.35 | jcp | I know this probably seems somewhat pointless, but I had a few ideas behind it and was wondering if it's worth coding them. |
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| 10:19.27 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19504 10/trunk/bzflag/src/scene/Occluder.cxx: * ws, 'func (...)' => 'func(...)' |
| 10:20.25 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19505 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/lua/CallIns.cxx: |
| 10:20.25 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * change the LuaServer call-in name from LuaData() to RecvLuaData() |
| 10:20.25 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: (to match the call-in in the client-side scripts) |
| 10:28.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19506 10/trunk/bzflag/ (7 files in 4 dirs): |
| 10:28.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * converted WorldEventManager to a Singleton |
| 10:28.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: (it was spinning on a bad iterator in the WorldEventManager::removeHandler() |
| 10:28.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: function during shutdown) |
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| 10:31.20 | trepan | a singleton might be overkill, a static flag would also work |
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| 12:06.35 | IneQuation | hello everyone |
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| 12:13.20 | joevano | hi IneQuation |
| 12:16.59 | IneQuation | I have a question regarding the libgame modularization gsoc task |
| 12:17.54 | IneQuation | if I were to apply for it, how far can I go in restructurizing the code? i.e. |
| 12:18.48 | IneQuation | for example, there's the code in playing.cxx which is responsible for setting view parameters - fov, viewpoint etc. |
| 12:19.12 | IneQuation | now, if I was allowed complete freedom, I'd move those calls to be made from the game library |
| 12:19.42 | trepan | and for observers? |
| 12:20.02 | joevano | the real people to ask about that stuff aren't usually on at this time |
| 12:20.04 | IneQuation | basically, I'd create a little API for the game and engine to interact through |
| 12:20.09 | IneQuation | oh |
| 12:20.18 | IneQuation | so what time should I be here then? |
| 12:20.36 | trepan | (libgame doesn't need to know anything about observer positions, which are used for fov, viewpoint, etc...) |
| 12:20.40 | joevano | but they will read this and respond |
| 12:22.02 | IneQuation | is away, will be right back |
| 12:22.15 | joevano | and I would tend to agree with trepan, the game logic doesn't care about pov |
| 12:27.04 | trepan | unless you're doing some of it server-side, in which case it can be used to filter update packets |
| 12:28.01 | trepan | but i certainly wouldn't move GL calls into libgame (which it sort of sounded like) |
| 12:28.39 | joevano | im not sure that pov should/would be used to filter what is sent |
| 12:29.07 | trepan | sure it would ;-) |
| 12:29.12 | joevano | tank position maybe, but if you shouldn't see/know about it your pov shouldn't matter |
| 12:30.02 | trepan | stealth tank behind you |
| 12:30.04 | joevano | i guess it could be used to limit those things that you know about but wouldn't be able to see |
| 12:30.10 | trepan | no need for updates ... |
| 12:30.30 | trepan | a smarter server could also do occlusion tests |
| 12:30.41 | joevano | yep, shouldn't be sent, but you shouldn't be getting that info anyway (long term) |
| 12:31.03 | trepan | getting? you mean from *sent* data? |
| 12:31.12 | joevano | unless it was in what was you cone of vision based on position only |
| 12:31.54 | trepan | cone wouldn't be defined by tank pos only |
| 12:32.02 | trepan | need dir and fovx/fovy |
| 12:32.17 | joevano | yeah, I would think you would not get any data about a ST tank until it was in your field of vision, you would get shots, but not tank position data |
| 12:32.35 | joevano | trepan of course, but im just keeping it simple |
| 12:32.44 | trepan | forget simple, accurate is better :) |
| 12:32.56 | trepan | and you wouldn't need IB shot updates either |
| 12:32.58 | joevano | hehe |
| 12:33.25 | trepan | and any info not within an expanded frustum for noRadar servers |
| 12:33.26 | joevano | yes, but for discussion of theory the details can obscure the basic idea |
| 12:33.43 | trepan | expand by distance and angle |
| 12:34.01 | joevano | agreed |
| 12:34.16 | trepan | then you should have said: "unless it was in what was you cone of vision", instead of "unless it was in what was you cone of vision based on position only" :) |
| 12:34.35 | joevano | :P |
| 12:35.01 | trepan | also need special treatment for teleporters |
| 12:35.07 | trepan | but that's not that hard ... |
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| 13:21.43 | IneQuation | is back |
| 13:21.52 | IneQuation | well I guess I didn't explain my mind clear enough |
| 13:22.06 | IneQuation | s/mind/idea |
| 13:22.47 | IneQuation | well look |
| 13:23.44 | IneQuation | as I said, if I was given complete freedom in this department, I would make the engine only provide the facilities needed by the game to show the game world to players |
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| 13:25.03 | IneQuation | so the engine would provide some entry points to stuff like adding tanks to the scene, setting its parameters (i.e. the GL matrices; maybe not explicitly matrices, but parameters needed to build them) |
| 13:25.18 | IneQuation | collision tests etc. |
| 13:25.48 | IneQuation | and the game lib would also only have a small number of entry points, maybe as few as 3 - init, frame and shutdown |
| 13:25.59 | IneQuation | see what I'm getting at? |
| 13:26.02 | IneQuation | similar for the server |
| 13:26.18 | IneQuation | and I'm just asking whether it's not going too far ;) |
| 13:27.41 | IneQuation | so what I meant about the fov and pov was that they could be parameters of a call to the renderer to draw the scene |
| 13:28.07 | IneQuation | hmm this would actually require the |
| 13:28.27 | IneQuation | whoops sorry pressed enter too quickly |
| 13:28.50 | IneQuation | ah, scratch that, nevermind |
| 13:30.40 | IneQuation | perhaps I should just write my application with a full explanation of the idea and revise it accordingly when you guys have read it? |
| 13:32.02 | trepan | IneQuation: sounds like a plan, a good one :) |
| 13:32.33 | trepan | (although i'm not directly involved in gsoc, brlcad's the dude for that) |
| 13:34.25 | IneQuation | lol I guess I should've come up with this earlier :P |
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| 13:44.28 | brlcad | IneQuation: you never have complete freedom :) |
| 13:45.03 | brlcad | but that would be the eventual ideal goal, to only give just enough information -- that's a long ways off, though |
| 13:46.17 | brlcad | IneQuation: you can write up what you have in mind to a User page on the wiki |
| 13:49.39 | nightstrike | hello brlcad, shall I submit my application tonight so that you may review it? |
| 13:49.51 | nightstrike | begin iterating perhaps? |
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| 14:01.31 | brlcad | nightstrike_: you can submit it whenever you like |
| 14:01.41 | brlcad | if you're like someone to review it first, post it to a User page on the wiki |
| 14:01.58 | nightstrike_ | yeah |
| 14:02.03 | nightstrike_ | I'd like someone to review it first |
| 14:02.11 | nightstrike_ | so I'll post it on the User page |
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| 14:30.14 | IneQuation | brlcad: thanks, that's what I'll do : |
| 14:30.17 | IneQuation | :)* |
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| 15:06.34 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-032-152.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 15:17.16 | jcp | Did anyone answer my question I had sent here last night? |
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| 15:18.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:20.05 | blast007 | jcp: a "cheat server" is one that is for people to cheat on, so your idea isn't a cheat server |
| 15:20.12 | jcp | ok, thanks |
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| 16:16.13 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03IneQuation.pl 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5598 10/w/User:IneQuation.pl: First draft of the GSoC proposal |
| 16:17.32 | IneQuation | brlcad: could you please take some time to review what I've written so far? I've got to go now, so it'd be great if you could comment on it on the talk page :) |
| 16:17.52 | JefferyM | IneQuation, you know you can edit your proposal after you submit too right? |
| 16:18.06 | IneQuation | brlcad: thanks in advance! oh, and the link has been provided by the bot above |
| 16:18.35 | IneQuation | JefferyM: yes I do, but he suggested I put it there, besides, registration opens in a couple of hours |
| 16:18.42 | JefferyM | k |
| 16:18.44 | IneQuation | JefferyM: thanks for the reminder though :) |
| 16:19.03 | JefferyM | just wants to make sure that we don't get a bunch of last min. submissions trying to make it "just right" |
| 16:19.13 | IneQuation | hehe |
| 16:19.21 | JefferyM | it's a big problem we had last year |
| 16:19.41 | IneQuation | has done his homework and read hints for students from the GSoC website |
| 16:19.44 | IneQuation | :D |
| 16:20.12 | IneQuation | ok, thanks everyone, I'll be leaving now |
| 16:20.15 | IneQuation | see you guys around |
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| 16:42.47 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5599 10/w/User_talk:IneQuation.pl: New page: Couple things, 1) tone down the ego. it's good to be proud of yourself and your accomplishments, but it comes of as being a bit too "much" if you understand the meaning. 2) The proposal ... |
| 16:43.24 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5600 10/w/User_talk:IneQuation.pl: Notes on the splitup propsal |
| 16:43.32 | JefferyM | wow, that ended up being longer then I expected :) |
| 16:44.24 | JefferyM | does not like the quake style "game dll" |
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| 17:16.15 | *** join/#bzflag sandy_ (i=sandy@115.241.213.63) |
| 17:16.24 | sandy_ | hello all |
| 17:16.34 | possible248 | 'allo |
| 17:16.59 | JefferyM | hello |
| 17:17.55 | sandy_ | i want to apply for the BZFlag development through gsoc 2009 |
| 17:17.55 | JefferyM | cool |
| 17:17.56 | sandy_ | i have gone through the project ideas. |
| 17:18.40 | sandy_ | as i'm new to bzflag, i dont have any project ideas of my own, i would rather like to take up one of the suggested ideas |
| 17:18.45 | JefferyM | k |
| 17:18.54 | JefferyM | what ones interest you? |
| 17:19.20 | sandy_ | * Modularization of game logic |
| 17:19.28 | JefferyM | the most popular one :) |
| 17:19.43 | sandy_ | *Cheat preventions |
| 17:19.53 | JefferyM | a dificult task |
| 17:20.17 | sandy_ | * BZRobots |
| 17:20.38 | sandy_ | * Finish server-side players |
| 17:21.01 | sandy_ | * BUg fixing |
| 17:21.33 | JefferyM | you plan on submiting proposals for all of those? |
| 17:22.07 | sandy_ | in my priority list, number one is Cheat prevention and then comes BUG Fixing |
| 17:22.07 | sandy_ | no :) |
| 17:22.26 | JefferyM | Cheat Prevention will be an interesting task |
| 17:22.36 | JefferyM | it actualy has a lot of hooks into the game logic project |
| 17:22.48 | sandy_ | okay.. i see |
| 17:22.50 | JefferyM | have had a chance to look at the code yet? |
| 17:23.19 | sandy_ | by the way, i too am very much excited for cheat prevention |
| 17:23.25 | sandy_ | no, havent had a chance |
| 17:23.39 | sandy_ | i assume i'll get the source code from sourceforge ? |
| 17:23.41 | JefferyM | I'd take a look at it before you get too excited ;) |
| 17:23.43 | JefferyM | yes |
| 17:23.52 | sandy_ | okay |
| 17:23.55 | JefferyM | from our subversion repositiry |
| 17:24.51 | blast007 | specifically /trunk/bzflag/ for what you're interested in |
| 17:24.57 | JefferyM | indeed |
| 17:25.31 | *** join/#bzflag kumarabhi (n=chatzill@115.241.153.150) |
| 17:26.18 | sandy_ | i am new to subversion |
| 17:26.34 | JefferyM | never a better time to learn then :) |
| 17:26.35 | blast007 | http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_SVN |
| 17:26.51 | JefferyM | during SOC we expect our students to use it every day |
| 17:27.07 | sandy_ | thank you for the link, blast |
| 17:28.16 | sandy_ | yes, sure. i too want to learn svn as soon a s possible because i know that code updates,fixes wil be through subversion |
| 17:28.48 | JefferyM | that and you have to commit to svn as you work |
| 17:29.05 | JefferyM | we don't treat SoC like a school project, you work interactivly with us. |
| 17:29.18 | JefferyM | what OS do you run? |
| 17:29.54 | sandy_ | yes |
| 17:29.54 | sandy_ | by the way, i have used tortoise subversion previously though |
| 17:29.58 | JefferyM | cool |
| 17:30.04 | JefferyM | it is a good tool |
| 17:30.50 | sandy_ | i run windows xp |
| 17:31.02 | sandy_ | i have tortoise svn installed |
| 17:31.49 | sandy_ | i too am serious about SOC |
| 17:32.13 | nightstrike | Hello JefferyM, can I just upload a pdf file (my application) and show you the link, or should I post it on my user page? |
| 17:32.28 | JefferyM | nightstrike, userpage is best, then more people can comment |
| 17:32.31 | nightstrike | ok |
| 17:32.34 | JefferyM | but I'll read your pdf too if you want |
| 17:34.41 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5601 10/w/User:Nightstrike: Here's version 1 of my GSoC application for BZFlag |
| 17:34.41 | sandy_ | because working on a SOC project is a matter of pride |
| 17:34.55 | sandy_ | and i will be fully committed to the project |
| 17:35.10 | JefferyM | where are you from sandy_ ? |
| 17:35.23 | sandy_ | I am from India |
| 17:35.32 | JefferyM | cool |
| 17:35.34 | sandy_ | and where are you from Jeffery ? |
| 17:35.36 | nightstrike | I've posted on the wiki JefferyM |
| 17:35.43 | JefferyM | nightstrike, I see |
| 17:35.47 | JefferyM | hugs CIA-11 |
| 17:35.55 | CIA-11 | hugs JefferyM |
| 17:36.00 | nightstrike | :P |
| 17:36.17 | JefferyM | all of our wiki edits are hooked into CIA, helps with peer review |
| 17:36.23 | nightstrike | neat :) |
| 17:36.32 | JefferyM | and spam, etc.. |
| 17:37.31 | nightstrike | one part of it didn't come up well on the wiki, I'll upload the pdf file |
| 17:37.52 | JefferyM | the info is fine |
| 17:38.21 | sandy_ | any suggestions on what to present in my application, Jeffery ? |
| 17:39.25 | JefferyM | sandy_, an overview of you and your skills, the goals of your project/idea, and some specifics about how you plan to implement it. |
| 17:39.34 | JefferyM | and a rough timeframe of what you expect to get done when |
| 17:39.39 | JefferyM | that's what we mostly look for. |
| 17:41.32 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5602 10/w/User_talk:Nightstrike: New page: The overall plan seems sound, just a couple notes. 1) The refactoring should not and does not have any affect on the 3.0 release. The code needs to be releasable at any time. The refactori... |
| 17:41.52 | JefferyM | must remember to edit that damed summary |
| 17:42.33 | nightstrike | ok, thanks JefferyM |
| 17:42.37 | JefferyM | sure |
| 17:42.37 | sandy_ | actually i'm very bad with the writing part of any application :D |
| 17:42.37 | sandy_ | have been so since school days :D |
| 17:42.54 | JefferyM | it looks pretty good so far, I think you just need to flesh it out a little more. |
| 17:43.01 | nightstrike | yes, even I felt so |
| 17:43.09 | nightstrike | the how? part looks very vague |
| 17:43.10 | nightstrike | right? |
| 17:43.15 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 17:43.21 | nightstrike | done |
| 17:43.31 | nightstrike | can you give me some guidelines as far as that is concerned? |
| 17:43.34 | JefferyM | just give an overview of how you would attack the problem, and an outline of what you feel will be in the final libs |
| 17:43.45 | nightstrike | ok, great |
| 17:43.50 | JefferyM | "lib x will eventualy conain, a, b, c, d, etc" |
| 17:43.58 | nightstrike | I see, will do |
| 17:44.07 | JefferyM | "And first I'll take A and make it work in X, tc.." |
| 17:44.36 | JefferyM | sandy_, we will glady review your application as you write it, you can even edit after you submit it |
| 17:44.50 | JefferyM | we understand that applications go through many iterations |
| 17:44.58 | blast007 | JefferyM: Wings3D has a method of checking if it needs to install the MSVC++ redist |
| 17:45.04 | blast007 | http://wings.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wings/trunk/win32/wings.nsi?view=markup |
| 17:45.13 | blast007 | might be able to use that, license permitting |
| 17:45.20 | JefferyM | the act of comunicating during the process of the application is one thing we look at too, as we want all students to comunicate with us. |
| 17:45.30 | sandy_ | okay |
| 17:45.46 | JefferyM | blast007, if not, it'd be trivial to reimplement :) |
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| 17:48.20 | JefferyM | blast007, the license is fine, if we mod it we can even relicense it ourselves "provided we clearly indicate the new terms" |
| 17:48.33 | JefferyM | http://wings.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wings/trunk/license.terms?revision=1&view=markup |
| 17:48.36 | blast007 | k |
| 17:48.45 | JefferyM | it's pretty much bsd with a goverment clause |
| 17:49.06 | JefferyM | and we can just mod it and make our mod GPL, sinc we arn't goverments :) |
| 17:49.32 | JefferyM | it's the basic "don't sue me" license |
| 17:49.47 | blast007 | :) |
| 17:50.02 | JefferyM | our mod can even be adding "Derived from, XXXX" and give his info |
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| 18:01.27 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5603 10/w/User:Nightstrike: /* Synopsis */ |
| 18:02.33 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5604 10/w/User:Nightstrike: Replacing page with 'Version-2.0 coming soon :)' |
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| 18:19.33 | JefferyM | blast007, when you looked at openAL, did you see if it could play MP3 and OOG or do you need another decoder? |
| 18:19.43 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=ausom@bzflag/player/Me1) |
| 18:21.23 | blast007 | can't remember |
| 18:24.15 | Wyk3d | would be weirdi if it couldn't read oog, it being liked to liboog,libvorbis .. |
| 18:24.31 | Wyk3d | *linked |
| 18:24.34 | trepan | http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL Wiki/EXT_vorbis.aspx |
| 18:25.20 | JefferyM | cool, then I just have to figure out how ;) |
| 18:25.28 | trepan | and for macosx: http://icculus.org/al_osx/ |
| 18:25.52 | trepan | (don't know if the other version has it now or not, wiki might be old) |
| 18:26.32 | JefferyM | there is an alut method that is suposed to guess the format from the file, I'll try that :) |
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| 18:30.50 | Wyk3d | JefferyM: http://www.devmaster.net/articles/openal-tutorials/lesson8.php |
| 18:31.20 | Wyk3d | i think it was osgAL that was linked to vorbis as well .. |
| 18:32.18 | JefferyM | that looks to be doing it's own decoding, but thanks |
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| 18:58.25 | *** join/#bzflag valdyr (n=anonym@194.114.133.47) |
| 18:58.35 | valdyr | Hello gents |
| 18:58.47 | valdyr | anybody here? |
| 18:59.07 | joevano | valdyr: lots of us |
| 18:59.24 | joevano | 73 not counting you to be exact |
| 18:59.43 | valdyr | I mean alive(= |
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| 19:00.06 | valdyr | Can I ask a few questions? |
| 19:00.13 | valdyr | about bzflag project? |
| 19:00.26 | joevano | ~ask |
| 19:00.27 | ibot | Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. |
| 19:01.26 | joevano | go ahead.. we've had a few already here today talking about GSoC |
| 19:01.31 | joevano | we are happy to help |
| 19:01.45 | valdyr | well |
| 19:01.51 | valdyr | I would like to start in gamedev |
| 19:02.10 | valdyr | and It seems to me like a great chance to join such an opensource projcet |
| 19:02.58 | valdyr | question is about language\tools skills |
| 19:03.50 | valdyr | what skills of C and C++ are needed from the applicant? |
| 19:03.56 | *** join/#bzflag Upsetter (n=Ups@i577B60FA.versanet.de) |
| 19:05.31 | joevano | having experience using C and C++ are good and if for GSoC we would expect at least some experience with them |
| 19:07.44 | joevano | the more important part in my mind is planning a project that fits your current skill level |
| 19:09.27 | valdyr | ok |
| 19:09.32 | joevano | and making us feel comfortable that you understand the project you apply for by explaining your project and the steps to complete it |
| 19:10.06 | valdyr | To be fair: I`m really glad to start making bugfix proposals |
| 19:10.21 | valdyr | coz its the better way to get familiar with the cod |
| 19:10.21 | valdyr | e |
| 19:10.26 | valdyr | (= |
| 19:10.39 | joevano | are you familiar with SVN? |
| 19:10.48 | valdyr | am not reallt |
| 19:10.56 | valdyr | A worked with ClearCase |
| 19:10.59 | valdyr | Pvcs |
| 19:11.04 | joevano | well this would be a good reason to start ;) |
| 19:11.22 | valdyr | and m$ version control system |
| 19:11.25 | valdyr | as well |
| 19:11.34 | valdyr | also I played with perforce |
| 19:12.21 | joevano | we use SVN, you can get a bit of help here...http://my.bzflag.org/w/SVN |
| 19:12.47 | valdyr | I`ve been working as QA tester for a month in Kuju (UK, gamedev) in summer 06 |
| 19:13.19 | valdyr | they were making their Railway sim |
| 19:13.49 | joevano | sounds cool |
| 19:14.25 | valdyr | How many hours do you expect to be dedicated for this project a week for example? |
| 19:15.20 | joevano | we really expect a 40 hour work week... GSoC should be viewed as a job |
| 19:15.37 | valdyr | ok |
| 19:16.50 | brlcad | is all caught up, woot |
| 19:17.01 | joevano | have you seen our "application Guidelines" yet? |
| 19:17.25 | valdyr | yep but I havent read them all |
| 19:17.31 | valdyr | yet |
| 19:17.50 | joevano | ok, just wanted to point you in the right direction |
| 19:18.10 | valdyr | ok |
| 19:18.24 | joevano | and we encourage you to be active here during the application process, to discuss your ideas and get opinions/pointers |
| 19:18.53 | valdyr | btw are there any ideas to make port of bzflag into iphoneos |
| 19:18.55 | valdyr | ? |
| 19:20.40 | joevano | valdyr: people have asked before, but the interface really isn't very suited fo what we do, and the feature set available on the iphone really would require an entire rewrite |
| 19:20.51 | brlcad | valdyr: plenty of ideas, all just talk though |
| 19:21.14 | valdyr | ok |
| 19:21.53 | valdyr | is it seems to be too much work? |
| 19:22.05 | valdyr | take the engine |
| 19:22.13 | valdyr | set up output |
| 19:22.23 | joevano | brlcad: caught up reading.. or caught up on work? cause if it's the latter... |
| 19:22.24 | valdyr | well a bit tricky controls |
| 19:24.03 | valdyr | are there any architecture docs available for the proj? |
| 19:25.03 | joevano | valdyr: the quick answer is no, unfortunately |
| 19:25.14 | valdyr | err thats not good |
| 19:26.06 | valdyr | how many active developers are in the field? |
| 19:29.09 | joevano | depends on what active means, but 5 or 6 |
| 19:30.47 | joevano | we have 81 users with commit access to SVN |
| 19:31.06 | valdyr | ok |
| 19:31.10 | valdyr | that a lot |
| 19:31.23 | valdyr | but its artists, level designers etc |
| 19:31.42 | joevano | its an old project, map makers dont usually have svn access |
| 19:32.18 | joevano | most of the people who have commit access are coders i believe |
| 19:34.01 | valdyr | are doing this as a hobby? |
| 19:34.44 | joevano | yes, no one here gets paid |
| 19:35.11 | valdyr | I mean most of people here have got fulltime job |
| 19:35.17 | brlcad | joevano: heh, with the chan |
| 19:35.33 | joevano | :P |
| 19:35.50 | valdyr | is this job in Gamedev, or not always? |
| 19:36.49 | joevano | im an IT Director for a hospital/outpatient clinic, i don't think anyone here works as a game developer for pay |
| 19:37.02 | joevano | but i could be wrong |
| 19:37.02 | valdyr | heheh |
| 19:37.09 | valdyr | that is what i want to know |
| 19:37.23 | joevano | quite a ew work as developers though |
| 19:37.32 | joevano | few* |
| 19:37.36 | valdyr | yes that is for sure |
| 19:37.46 | valdyr | I `m doing parttime as C developer |
| 19:37.59 | valdyr | but also not for gamedev:( |
| 19:39.53 | valdyr | are you familiar with MacOs\iPhoneOs? |
| 19:40.02 | valdyr | or anyone? |
| 19:40.46 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 19:40.47 | joevano | yes, many of us have macs.. but we also have other systems as well |
| 19:41.40 | joevano | i use 3 differnt macs.. well 2 primarily, my kids hog the other one :P |
| 19:41.46 | valdyr | heh |
| 19:41.52 | valdyr | I dont have one yet |
| 19:42.02 | valdyr | have just bought an iTouch |
| 19:42.45 | valdyr | learned some bits of objc |
| 19:42.55 | valdyr | with and idea to make a game for it |
| 19:43.13 | valdyr | or port existing one |
| 19:43.15 | joevano | sounds interestion |
| 19:43.15 | valdyr | (= |
| 19:43.41 | valdyr | apple gives pretty good docs |
| 19:44.29 | valdyr | maybe it is worth to try it with bzflag |
| 19:45.04 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@75.81.243.228) |
| 19:45.04 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 19:46.29 | *** join/#bzflag bier (n=bier@p54A572E7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:50.05 | valdyr | anyways mny thanks for answers. Will continue reading your guidelines and proceeding with proposal(= |
| 19:50.18 | valdyr | glad to meet you |
| 19:50.25 | valdyr | btw where are you from? |
| 19:55.02 | JefferyM | joevano is from antartica |
| 19:55.11 | valdyr | hheh |
| 19:55.56 | valdyr | US/Europe? |
| 19:56.40 | JefferyM | he's in the US :) |
| 19:56.48 | joevano | valdyr: US.. Indiana to be more specific |
| 19:56.50 | JefferyM | has his address somehwere |
| 19:57.05 | JefferyM | polo shirt still holdin up joevano ? |
| 19:57.16 | valdyr | heh |
| 19:57.20 | joevano | yeah, it is great.. but it is getting a little big |
| 19:57.25 | valdyr | I`m from Ukraine |
| 19:57.34 | JefferyM | joevano, congrats then :) |
| 19:57.41 | JefferyM | maybe one day we can have some more made |
| 19:57.52 | JefferyM | haven't sold any of the other shirts in a LONG while |
| 20:00.26 | joevano | need to add a "store" grapgic to the bzflag.org page |
| 20:00.36 | joevano | graphic even |
| 20:00.44 | JefferyM | perhaps |
| 20:01.03 | Wyk3d | JefferyM: where could a test server for bzauthd be set up ? |
| 20:01.28 | JefferyM | couple places, on .bzflag.bz, or awesomelaser.com |
| 20:02.07 | joevano | that is awsome.. glad I had on my goggles |
| 20:02.45 | Wyk3d | so you have direct access to those ? ldap would need to be installed, set up and so on |
| 20:08.19 | JefferyM | I have access to the latter, not the former |
| 20:08.23 | JefferyM | brlcad would have the former |
| 20:08.30 | JefferyM | brlcad, you want to try ldap on .bz? |
| 20:08.34 | JefferyM | or is it overloaded? |
| 20:08.36 | *** part/#bzflag valdyr (n=anonym@194.114.133.47) |
| 20:08.39 | Wyk3d | and what OS-es are they running ? |
| 20:08.47 | JefferyM | bsd |
| 20:08.50 | JefferyM | both of em |
| 20:09.08 | JefferyM | I did what I could to keep my server as similar to .bz as I could |
| 20:09.12 | JefferyM | for obvious reasons :) |
| 20:09.43 | Wyk3d | k |
| 20:13.48 | *** join/#bzflag Xtaaz (n=cygal@87.100.85.73) |
| 20:28.04 | brlcad | ldap is already installed and is running |
| 20:28.31 | brlcad | couple websites use it (or were using it) |
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| 20:40.03 | JefferyM | then can you get the man an account so he can test his shizzle :) |
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| 21:06.23 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03IneQuation.pl 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5605 10/w/User_talk:IneQuation.pl: New section: [[User talk:IneQuation.pl#Thanks!|Thanks!]] |
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| 21:19.37 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03IneQuation.pl 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5606 10/w/User:IneQuation.pl: Small rewrites, marking the proposal section as pending rewrite |
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| 21:22.31 | Cygal | hi, I'm interested in participating to the "Lots o' bug fixing" project for gsoc, and I wrote a small patch while looking around in the code base |
| 21:22.37 | Cygal | https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2707303&group_id=3248&atid=303248 what do you think? |
| 21:23.53 | trepan | Cygal: i think that min/max wind speeds should probably be server variables |
| 21:24.01 | Cygal | right |
| 21:24.40 | trepan | so you'd want to look at src/common/global.cxx |
| 21:25.24 | trepan | this is also a decent situation to use the recently added BZDB_float type ;-) |
| 21:25.45 | trepan | (see include/BZDBCache.h for that one) |
| 21:26.19 | JefferyM | yeah if it's used every frame it should be cached |
| 21:26.28 | JefferyM | bzdb lookups are relitively slow |
| 21:26.45 | trepan | although there remain thousands of them per second |
| 21:27.28 | JefferyM | sadly |
| 21:28.36 | trepan | those BZDB_(type) classes should make it easier, for rarely used vars (each one sets up a callback though, so oft used vars should be properly BZDBCache::varName'd) |
| 21:29.03 | trepan | oh, and they should be static ;-) |
| 21:29.57 | trepan | heh, i actually had both of those comments in the header; suprised myself |
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| 21:33.18 | brlcad | haven't reviewed it yet, but nice patch Cygal |
| 21:33.43 | Cygal | I'm rewriting it to take into account trepan's advices :] |
| 21:33.44 | brlcad | I mean, finding the FIXME and trying to fix it |
| 21:33.52 | brlcad | not so much the execution itself ;) |
| 21:35.31 | Cygal | trepan: so every var used in the main loop should be cached, right? |
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| 21:36.27 | trepan | a few stragglers wont kill the program, but better to switch to a cached mechanism when you modifying code |
| 21:36.40 | trepan | s/you/you're/ |
| 21:37.01 | JefferyM | Cygal, it generaly depends on how often it gets looked up |
| 21:37.15 | JefferyM | it's the string lookup for the name that takes the most time. |
| 21:37.25 | JefferyM | stuff that's used ONCE per frame probably isn't bad |
| 21:37.49 | trepan | you can get the stats per variable using 'bzflag -dddd' |
| 21:37.52 | JefferyM | but stuff that may commonly be used a lot, like gravity, speeds, and other things that are per tank, per shot, per flag, etc.. should be cached. |
| 21:37.56 | trepan | (or whatever the winny equivalent is) |
| 21:38.02 | JefferyM | same thing |
| 21:39.01 | trepan | and now it's easy :) static BZDB_float maxWindSpeed("_maxWindSpeed"); |
| 21:39.27 | JefferyM | yay for templates :) |
| 21:39.29 | trepan | (i won't even argue over the 'const'ness, because the class value can be modified directly :) |
| 21:39.35 | trepan | what templates? |
| 21:39.46 | JefferyM | true |
| 21:39.47 | Cygal | it's a macro :p |
| 21:39.50 | JefferyM | you should make it a template |
| 21:39.59 | trepan | fill your boots |
| 21:40.00 | JefferyM | then you can have one implementation for all types ;) |
| 21:40.16 | JefferyM | is sure brlcad will templatze it at some point |
| 21:40.18 | JefferyM | he lubs them |
| 21:40.20 | brlcad | heh |
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| 21:43.15 | JefferyM | learns himself some openAL |
| 21:44.40 | Erroneous | assigns JefferyM some bugs |
| 21:44.40 | brlcad | actually sounds like it might be a good candidate to use the Factory class, depending on the types and registrations |
| 21:47.08 | brlcad | congratulates wesnoth devs for getting a major release /.'d |
| 21:48.05 | TD-Linux | wesnoth is awesome |
| 21:48.13 | TD-Linux | we had a little party yesterday celebrating it |
| 22:08.42 | rolando | I was also thinking of participate in the summer of code on the bug hunt part |
| 22:08.56 | rolando | "thinking" being the keyword in that sentence :P |
| 22:09.48 | Cygal | ok, added those to the server variables, it seems to work, I uploaded the new patch |
| 22:09.50 | rolando | it seems like my c++ knowledged is still very small (still first year) |
| 22:11.28 | Cygal | had a few problems when mis-using the "BZDB_VALUE_CLASS" |
| 22:11.45 | Xtaaz | ( https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=3248&atid=303248&file_id=319193&aid=2707303 ) |
| 22:11.59 | Cygal | (hm, that was me on another computer, nvm) |
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| 22:30.52 | brlcad | rolando: glad to hear it |
| 22:31.23 | brlcad | don't think there has yet been a strong discussion from someone to propose how to go about systematically fixing various bugs |
| 22:44.18 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19508 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (bzflag/World.cxx common/global.cxx): * applied Cygal's _minWindSpeed/_maxWindSpeed patch, thank you kindly :) |
| 22:44.36 | Cygal | heh :) |
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| 22:49.35 | Constitution | ~Cygal++ |
| 22:49.48 | trepan | Cygal: i'll note that there should probably be StateDatabase::BZDB_[MIN|MAX]WINDSPEED named variables for compile time typo checking, but i'll take the blame for that |
| 22:50.32 | trepan | there quite a few of those lying around, and to be honest the StateDatabase::BZDB_MINWINDSPEED style makes the code harder to read |
| 22:50.58 | trepan | s/there/there are/ |
| 22:52.48 | trepan | cd src/bzflag; grep \"_ *.cxx | grep BZDB # will show you some of the others :) |
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| 22:57.14 | Cygal | trepan: ah indeed. well I can add them to StateDatabase.cxx |
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| 23:51.25 | steerpike | identification doesn't works |
| 23:51.45 | steerpike | nor dddoes server list |
| 23:54.39 | Constitution | ~bzflist |
| 23:54.42 | PositiveG | Is it just me or is the list server down? |
| 23:55.14 | PositiveG | Nevermind |
| 23:55.19 | PositiveG | it's just slow for me |
| 23:56.33 | JefferyM | sometimes the tubes they get cloged |
| 23:56.54 | trepan | heh, there was on irssi process taking eating 10% of the cpu on that machine |
| 23:57.11 | JefferyM | that's normal |
| 23:57.36 | JefferyM | brlcad and SportChick use it for IRC |
| 23:57.43 | JefferyM | and she's scripttastic |
| 23:58.40 | trepan | that's a whole lotta scriptin' indeed then |
| 23:59.16 | JefferyM | she's in a lot of channels |
| 23:59.23 | trepan | thousands? |
| 23:59.33 | JefferyM | possibly hundreds |
| 23:59.47 | JefferyM | and she has a lot of scripts for her freenode admin duties, etc.. |
| 23:59.58 | JefferyM | one of them probalby horked |
| 23:59.59 | JefferyM | it happens |