| 00:00.10 | JefferyM | but I've seen it commonly eat 5-10% |
| 00:00.14 | trepan | and there's that one she runs, turing.sh |
| 00:00.32 | JefferyM | IIRC .bz is also a slower CPU, 2.0 gig p4 I think |
| 00:00.43 | JefferyM | or maybe that's mine |
| 00:02.57 | steerpike | irssi takes up 97-100% if you try to log onto an ssl-enabled irc port over tor |
| 00:03.03 | steerpike | *cpu |
| 00:03.32 | JefferyM | what country do you live in where the prevent you from connecting to IRC normaly? |
| 00:04.56 | steerpike | it's an offshore oil platform |
| 00:05.13 | steerpike | so it's not technically a country |
| 00:05.32 | JefferyM | and the goverment there opresees you when you speak out about them, that's why you need to use tor? ;) |
| 00:05.42 | steerpike | ^_^ |
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| 01:17.52 | alexbanceanu | hey, anyone online? |
| 01:17.59 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:19.48 | alexbanceanu | i'm a student interested in applying for gsoc, anyone here i can ask about the projects? |
| 01:20.02 | JeffM | yep |
| 01:20.05 | JeffM | go for it |
| 01:20.58 | alexbanceanu | first of all, what technologies are most important to you? |
| 01:21.06 | JeffM | what do you mean? |
| 01:21.25 | alexbanceanu | programming languages, libraries known, stuff like that |
| 01:21.29 | alexbanceanu | any special requirements? |
| 01:21.37 | JeffM | bzflag is writen in C++ |
| 01:21.54 | JeffM | if your propsal involved working on that codebase, I'd hope you'd know it :) |
| 01:21.55 | alexbanceanu | yes, i read that |
| 01:22.15 | alexbanceanu | i'm very good with C++ |
| 01:22.25 | JeffM | you should be able to demonstate your understanding of the language you intend to use in your project |
| 01:22.35 | JeffM | but it's not like we say "you MUST know ajax" or anything |
| 01:22.56 | alexbanceanu | i wanted to know if you use speciffic 3rd party libraries that i've never heard about or that are really field-speciffic |
| 01:23.09 | JeffM | bzflag dosn't use that many 3rd party libs ;) |
| 01:23.20 | JeffM | openGL, curl, lua |
| 01:23.28 | JeffM | SDL for linux and OSX |
| 01:23.39 | JeffM | it's all fairly basic |
| 01:24.03 | alexbanceanu | i'm pretty familiar with opengl for C++ too |
| 01:24.05 | JeffM | what projects were you interestd in? |
| 01:24.13 | JeffM | openGL is a C API ;) |
| 01:24.15 | alexbanceanu | and i wrote a bit of lua to fix a wow addon |
| 01:24.24 | alexbanceanu | <-noob |
| 01:24.26 | JeffM | lua is pretty new to us |
| 01:24.37 | JeffM | it was just added to our trunk code |
| 01:25.34 | alexbanceanu | tbh all your projects sound great. i liked the 'changing opengl logic' or 'network testing' |
| 01:25.51 | alexbanceanu | since i'm familiar with both using C with opengl and network communication |
| 01:26.01 | JeffM | cool |
| 01:26.08 | alexbanceanu | but you seem really intent on bugfixes, and i was curious on how that worked |
| 01:26.18 | JeffM | wellllllllll |
| 01:26.23 | JeffM | that one is a special one |
| 01:26.33 | JeffM | personaly I'm not sure it'll work out as a SoC project |
| 01:26.35 | alexbanceanu | i mean, in our application we pick a small chunckload of bugs that we'd like to try and fix? |
| 01:26.43 | JeffM | basicly yeah |
| 01:26.50 | JeffM | have a clearly defined set of things that they'd do |
| 01:27.08 | JeffM | I'm not sure it's a good one for a student |
| 01:27.18 | JeffM | as we all should just fix the bugs :) |
| 01:27.24 | JeffM | but it's on there |
| 01:28.25 | JeffM | the proposal for that one is going to have to be pretty detailed for it to get picked |
| 01:29.01 | alexbanceanu | but how do you fell about the other two projects i;ve just mentioned? |
| 01:29.15 | JeffM | the code "split" ones are 2 of the most popluar ones |
| 01:29.25 | JeffM | and I think they have the best chance of being completed by students |
| 01:29.32 | JeffM | they will also help clean up the code a lot. |
| 01:29.49 | JeffM | the network testing system would be nice, but it's a little less well defined IMHO |
| 01:30.31 | alexbanceanu | where could i see more of what the project is about? theres only a short description on the ideea page and thats not nearly enough to fill a project outline |
| 01:30.34 | JeffM | I'd love to just swap to a networking system that has bult in lag/packet loss simulation and be done with it :) |
| 01:30.41 | JeffM | that's all we got |
| 01:30.45 | JeffM | it's a very vauge idea |
| 01:30.53 | JeffM | was not the one to come up with it ;) |
| 01:31.23 | alexbanceanu | ah ok... |
| 01:31.34 | JeffM | I mean you could expand it out to be also somthing that shows a graphical simulation of the network traffic and game logics too, to help with problems with DR and lag compensation |
| 01:31.34 | CBG | thinks Cheat prevention should be the #1 priority. ;) |
| 01:31.38 | JeffM | but I'd rather just use the game for that |
| 01:31.46 | JeffM | CBG: sadly that needs SO much other stuff first |
| 01:31.59 | JeffM | if the cheats were simple bug fixes we'd have fixed them by now :) |
| 01:32.14 | trepan | JeffM: i still have my old netlag lib, a LD_PRELOAD library that does lag/jitter/loss |
| 01:32.18 | JeffM | the major work of cheat prevention will happen we we have a good state lib |
| 01:32.29 | CBG | JeffM: students have a lot of time...! :P |
| 01:32.30 | trepan | (only for *nix, don't know if winders does something like LD_PRELOAD) |
| 01:32.33 | JeffM | trepan: yeah there are lots of libs that would do it |
| 01:32.44 | trepan | JeffM: LD_PRELOAD, no need to change the app |
| 01:32.47 | JeffM | CBG: true, but they'd have to basicly redo a big chunk of bzflag |
| 01:33.01 | CBG | I know - just dreaming. :) |
| 01:33.04 | JeffM | trepan: ok, then whoever wants to do "network testing" can do that ;) |
| 01:33.11 | alexbanceanu | can a student apply to more projects @ the same organisation? |
| 01:33.19 | JeffM | CBG: the code cleanup projects are actualy HUGE steps tward getting us there |
| 01:33.25 | JeffM | specifcly the game logic split |
| 01:33.34 | CBG | It was a bit silly when even I could make a cheat client by changing just two lines of code. |
| 01:33.47 | Erroneous | trepan: DLL injection is the windows analogue |
| 01:33.48 | JeffM | cus if we have soemthing that can track states and do game logic, then we can hook that into the server, and check a LOT more stuff. |
| 01:34.09 | trepan | or better yet, make most of the cheats impossible ;-) |
| 01:34.15 | JeffM | exactly |
| 01:34.17 | trepan | no need for all that checking and whatnot |
| 01:34.24 | JeffM | once the server has the state, you just use that state |
| 01:34.34 | JeffM | who cares what a cheater does, there data never gets to anyone else |
| 01:34.55 | JeffM | the problem with "fixing" the cheats now would be that a cheater could simply revert the code changes |
| 01:35.02 | trepan | punkbusterII can be next years gsoc ;-) |
| 01:35.09 | JeffM | the only way to do it right is to have that prevention happen on code they can't cahnge, the server |
| 01:35.21 | JeffM | pb is such a hackish way of doing it |
| 01:35.28 | JeffM | is not a fan of the ID networking logic |
| 01:35.36 | JeffM | "ooo lets take screenshots" |
| 01:35.36 | Erroneous | dislikes punkbuster |
| 01:36.05 | JeffM | if you made your protocoll robust enough and your clients stupid enough, they can't do jack anyway |
| 01:36.22 | JeffM | or enough to matter that much |
| 01:36.41 | Erroneous | meh, clients would still be able to show things that they know but shouldn't be showing |
| 01:36.54 | JeffM | yeah there is some level you can't really get rid of |
| 01:37.09 | JeffM | but unless you start going closed source there is a limit as to what you can do |
| 01:37.32 | trepan | and it only takes one to crack the code, even with closed sourced |
| 01:37.37 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:38.12 | JeffM | if you are getting down to trying to seperate cheaters from very good players, because that's all they can do, I don't think it's worth it. not in open soruce |
| 01:38.35 | JeffM | cus you will be wrong some times :) |
| 01:38.41 | alexbanceanu | so what kind of cheating are we talking about? |
| 01:38.46 | JeffM | and if you want your game totaly "fair" don't make it a shooter, make it a MMO |
| 01:38.58 | JeffM | alexbanceanu: right now, the client does most of the game logic |
| 01:39.15 | trepan | JeffM: rule #1 we're always right rule #2 if we're wrong, see rule #1 |
| 01:39.15 | JeffM | so easy things like not exploding when you get shot :) |
| 01:39.20 | alexbanceanu | :)) |
| 01:39.23 | alexbanceanu | nice |
| 01:39.35 | JeffM | not really |
| 01:39.44 | JeffM | bzflag was origonaly made as a LAN game |
| 01:39.58 | JeffM | so if someone cheated you could just go to there desk and smack them |
| 01:40.32 | JeffM | the majority of the networking design has to change if we want it to be more like a modern internet game. |
| 01:41.03 | JeffM | the first server was a single C++ file that just relayed packets |
| 01:41.30 | Erroneous | it was a single file long after that :) |
| 01:41.31 | JeffM | we've been slowly moving things server side, but we are now down to the big things, like tank movement, shots, death, etc.. |
| 01:41.36 | Erroneous | just a very large file |
| 01:41.45 | JeffM | thats the main reason for the project to split out the game logic |
| 01:41.54 | alexbanceanu | so just so i see what your priorities are, which would be the most important project for you to see done? and which the least ? |
| 01:41.54 | JeffM | so we can have a lib that we can use on the client and server to track the game state |
| 01:42.14 | JeffM | alexbanceanu: IMHO the world editor is important |
| 01:42.19 | JeffM | then the code cleanups |
| 01:42.22 | Erroneous | the most important project is the one the student will be most successful at |
| 01:42.28 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:42.41 | JeffM | a proejct that is important to us but fails is not important at all :) |
| 01:42.53 | JeffM | the big thing we are going to look for in students is if we think they can finish |
| 01:42.59 | Erroneous | we'd rather have a student who's really passionate and familiar with a lower-priority project than one that does a half-assed job of a high-priority one |
| 01:43.03 | JeffM | or at least make very signifigant progress |
| 01:43.15 | JeffM | has had enough of the halfassed ones |
| 01:43.37 | JeffM | for example, last year I had to totaly rewrite a students project after the program |
| 01:43.42 | JeffM | because he was 1/8th assed |
| 01:43.47 | JeffM | that did not make me happy |
| 01:43.53 | Erroneous | heh, and did it in what, three days? |
| 01:43.57 | JeffM | 4 |
| 01:44.33 | JeffM | it was a minor proejct, but it would have been usefull to a number of people had the guy finished it |
| 01:44.37 | alexbanceanu | tbh i really want to participate, but i see lots of organisations where i can understand one, maybe two of the ideea projects. this is not one of them. so if i have to make a choice where to contribute i'd like to know hwat you think would be important. btw the world edition is not marked as "high priority" on the site |
| 01:44.40 | JeffM | and he could have made it realy slick |
| 01:45.03 | Erroneous | otoh, one of our students last year worked on a relatively low-priority project, and did a smash-up job of it, and is one of the few gsoc projects we've had that is 100% ready to ship |
| 01:45.20 | trepan | Erroneous: what was that? |
| 01:45.27 | Erroneous | server list |
| 01:45.37 | trepan | the new GUI elements? |
| 01:45.38 | JeffM | alexbanceanu: dosn't really work that way. you need to have a gusto for the project, not just "do what we tell you we want done" |
| 01:45.42 | JeffM | that's not what we are looking for |
| 01:45.49 | JeffM | we are not looking for free labor |
| 01:45.50 | Erroneous | yup, along with the sorting/filtering rewrites |
| 01:46.03 | JeffM | our goal is to get developers that will stick around after |
| 01:46.07 | trepan | Erroneous: and the client->servers ping ... that part is nice too |
| 01:46.10 | Erroneous | yup |
| 01:46.28 | JeffM | and yeah, the world editor is not marked high, the priorities are that of only one developer, the one that made the page :) |
| 01:47.06 | trepan | thinks the in-game editor would make sauerbraten tremble ;-) |
| 01:47.12 | alexbanceanu | ok, i'll take a look at the code first, and i hope i'll get a better feel about it |
| 01:47.29 | Erroneous | the student was good to work with too. not a lot of experience, but was ready to learn what he needed. |
| 01:47.30 | JeffM | alexbanceanu: if youare just looking for some summer money, then you may want to look at other orgs, as we don't expect to be able to host more then one or two students. |
| 01:47.50 | Erroneous | don't let that stop you from applying though |
| 01:48.19 | alexbanceanu | its not the money, i really want to do something interesting this summer. i wasted last summer writing ERP software... |
| 01:48.39 | Erroneous | especially if you start getting excited about the game ;) |
| 01:48.40 | JeffM | fair enough |
| 01:49.07 | JeffM | I recomend submiting more then one proposal |
| 01:49.19 | JeffM | rather then just tring to find the "perfect one" |
| 01:49.26 | alexbanceanu | fair enough |
| 01:49.26 | JeffM | we WILL have duplicate applications |
| 01:49.54 | JeffM | last year we had to turn away some good tallent cus they all put in one app for the same proposal |
| 01:50.02 | JeffM | and we can only pick one per idea |
| 01:50.26 | Erroneous | don't submit something you aren't going to be happy about doing though, please |
| 01:50.35 | JeffM | indeed |
| 01:50.47 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19509 10/trunk/bzflag/ (5 files in 3 dirs): |
| 01:50.47 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * added windSpeed dependence to the flag waving |
| 01:50.47 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * added the 'parabolicSlope' BZDB control variable |
| 01:50.47 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: (maps linear input device ranges to a parabolic curve) |
| 01:51.09 | MindstormsKid | windSpeed? :D |
| 01:51.10 | JeffM | if the openGL code split one interest you, then the game logic one may as well |
| 01:51.22 | JeffM | as they are similar tasks in different areas of code |
| 01:51.26 | trepan | more wind, faster flapping |
| 01:51.29 | JeffM | MindstormsKid: for the flags |
| 01:51.44 | MindstormsKid | yeah |
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| 02:17.52 | Quol | waves |
| 02:18.05 | PositiveG | waves back |
| 02:18.28 | blast007 | hi Quol :) |
| 02:18.48 | Quol | what's up guys? |
| 02:20.24 | blast007 | not much |
| 02:22.26 | Quol | I seem to always come when brlcad is dead...learner - if you wake up... hi :) |
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| 04:15.41 | delusional | Sometimes i use the callsign "Broken Wind" |
| 04:16.47 | delusional | email "claps like thunder" |
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| 04:48.44 | brlcad | ah, missed mister q-meister |
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| 05:35.18 | essy | DTRemenak, around? |
| 05:35.25 | essy | or brlcad? |
| 05:41.11 | Constitution | hi essy :) |
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| 06:37.14 | Will07c5 | I made a small list of possible improvements to bzworkbench, I'm going to post it to my user page, questions/comments/additions/subtractions all appreciated :) |
| 06:37.35 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Will07c5 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5607 10/w/User:Will07c5: New page: List of possible improvements to bzworkbench High priority - Add support for multiple viewports - Possibly add support for docking toolbars and windows http://fltkdock.sourceforge.net/scr... |
| 06:37.44 | Will07c5 | oops I fail at wiki editing |
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| 12:46.32 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: >>> NOTE <<< |
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| 13:21.10 | tupone | The "clamp us +- 180 " does not make any sense to me, or is wrong (on gamekeeper.cxx) |
| 13:21.57 | trepan | tupone: Cygal and I had a chat about that yesterday |
| 13:22.15 | trepan | it's wroing |
| 13:22.24 | trepan | *wrong |
| 13:22.28 | tupone | ahh. Ok. |
| 13:22.41 | trepan | Cygal: you have a patch done for that one yet? :) |
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| 13:23.02 | Cygal | I can have one soon :) |
| 13:23.20 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19514 10/trunk/bzflag/src/lua/LuaPack.cxx: * fixed the LuaUnpackXXX table count parameter |
| 13:23.23 | Cygal | with the +360 thing |
| 13:23.36 | trepan | coolio |
| 13:25.20 | trepan | would like to hear if different OSes are happy with the int64_t and uint64_t types |
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| 13:25.32 | trepan | (looks like some code was already using them, so it may be Ok) |
| 13:30.05 | Cygal | https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=3248&atid=303248&file_id=319303&aid=2707637 |
| 13:30.20 | Cygal | this assumes the rot is in degrees, and between -180 and 180 |
| 13:30.42 | Cygal | did not check if it was wrong or not. at least it was assumed too in the previous version of these lines |
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| 13:40.50 | Cygal | (but I can investigate if needed) |
| 13:43.31 | trepan | looking at src/game/PlayerState.cxx, azimuth may be in radians |
| 13:44.04 | trepan | (and note that it uses fmod(x, M_PI * 2), think that that was my doing ;-) |
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| 13:48.51 | Cygal | :p |
| 13:49.49 | Cygal | looking at games/MsgStrings.cxx:541 would lead to think that azimuth is indeed in radians |
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| 13:52.34 | Cygal | :q |
| 14:00.52 | Cygal | (focus fail). anyway, could this be linked to * fix the Z dead-reckoning issue (ask JeffM about it) |
| 14:01.01 | Cygal | ? |
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| 14:25.25 | trepan | Cygal: probably not |
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| 15:42.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19515 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/GameKeeper.cxx: |
| 15:42.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * changed currentRot to use radians |
| 15:42.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * fixed the 'while loop' clamping problem found by Cygal |
| 15:42.42 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19516 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/GameKeeper.cxx: * comment typo: s/azimuth/currentRot/ |
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| 17:24.36 | nightstrike | hello JefferyM, I've further refined my proposal |
| 17:24.43 | JefferyM | cool |
| 17:24.44 | nightstrike | can you go through it now? |
| 17:24.54 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r19517 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/ (310 files in 9 dirs): |
| 17:24.54 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: Upgrade to cURL 7.19.4, which fixes CVE-2009-0037. |
| 17:24.54 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: Omitted from the BZFlag subversion repository are the "packages" and "tests" subdirectories because they are large and beyond our scope. |
| 17:24.54 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: Upstream files that are created during our build process (e.g., Makefile.in, Makefile, *.pdf, *.html) are also omitted. |
| 17:24.54 | JefferyM | at this exact moment, no |
| 17:25.01 | JefferyM | I have to fix some bugs with spindle speed :) |
| 17:25.03 | BulletCatcher | Two more commits will follow in the next few minutes. They are needed to successfully build cURL on Linux systems. |
| 17:25.04 | JefferyM | but I can today |
| 17:25.04 | nightstrike | :) |
| 17:25.16 | nightstrike | Shall I mail it to you so that you can view it whenever you're free? |
| 17:25.31 | JefferyM | is your wiki page current? |
| 17:25.34 | JefferyM | I prefer wiki |
| 17:25.36 | nightstrike | fine |
| 17:25.46 | nightstrike | I'll put it up there |
| 17:25.58 | JefferyM | I just have to replace all the RPM calls with accessors :\ then I can look at it |
| 17:26.14 | nightstrike | :| |
| 17:26.39 | JefferyM | gotta pay the bills :) |
| 17:27.22 | nightstrike | we all love paying bills don't we :D |
| 17:27.59 | JefferyM | only 40 places in the code to check :) |
| 17:29.00 | JefferyM | then I have to do the lathe speeds but I'll read your stuff before that |
| 17:29.23 | nightstrike | give me a bug or two to fix as well |
| 17:29.36 | JefferyM | you don't have access to this source code ;) |
| 17:29.41 | nightstrike | although I do have one patch ready, it's kind of lam |
| 17:29.43 | nightstrike | *lame |
| 17:29.48 | nightstrike | oooooh... :P |
| 17:29.58 | JefferyM | is at work now |
| 17:30.23 | nightstrike | thanks JefferyM. Do carry on, I'm putting it my proposal on the wiki now. |
| 17:30.29 | JefferyM | k |
| 17:30.46 | JefferyM | bahh... I'll have to do spindle dir as well |
| 17:31.13 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r19518 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/ (Makefile.am configure.ac): Remove references to cURL's "packages" and "tests" subdirectories, as BZFlag does not have them. |
| 17:35.17 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r19519 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/m4/libtool.m4: |
| 17:35.17 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: Define "echo" instead of "ECHO" as a shell variable for libtool 1.5 compatibility. |
| 17:35.17 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: An adaptive or all-inclusive definition method will be required when BZFlag developers start using libtool 2.2. |
| 17:35.58 | BulletCatcher | That's all I have for the cURL upgrade. |
| 17:36.11 | JefferyM | bah's at curl |
| 17:37.07 | BulletCatcher | I got a linker warning on MacOS about symbols being defined more than once, but haven't had a chance to investigate. It seems harmless. |
| 17:37.48 | BulletCatcher | The Windows build system almost certainly needs to be tweaked for the new cURL version. |
| 17:38.14 | JefferyM | bahh I say |
| 17:38.25 | JefferyM | did they add new files? |
| 17:38.42 | BulletCatcher | Yes, there are some new files and others were deleted. |
| 17:38.47 | JefferyM | suck |
| 17:39.01 | JefferyM | you could have edited the XML :) |
| 17:39.09 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5609 10/w/User:Nightstrike: |
| 17:39.20 | brlcad | nightstrike: so then that gives you time to work on making it a non-lame fix ;) |
| 17:39.40 | nightstrike | well, just how non-lame can you make a couple of typo fixes? :P |
| 17:40.26 | brlcad | well, by making it be more than typo fixes obviously ;) |
| 17:41.02 | brlcad | fixing typos might satisfy the requirement, but won't earn you any brownie points when you're compared to others |
| 17:41.25 | nightstrike | I know, I'll be looking for good bugs to fix from thursday onwards |
| 17:41.31 | nightstrike | I hate assignments :( |
| 17:43.31 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5610 10/w/User:Nightstrike: |
| 17:44.04 | nightstrike | the wiki looks kinda weird, no text wrapping as far as the bullets are concerned :| |
| 17:45.44 | brlcad | you didn't make bullets, you made a code block |
| 17:45.51 | brlcad | lines that start with spaces |
| 17:45.55 | brlcad | remove the spaces |
| 17:46.43 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r19520 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/lib/msvcproj.foot: Change Subversion svn:eol-style property to CRLF to match upstream. |
| 17:46.56 | brlcad | or use: ==Phase I== .. === Split libGame...=== ... |
| 17:47.48 | brlcad | references aren't right either, but good enough :) |
| 17:48.33 | nightstrike | oops |
| 17:48.47 | JefferyM | yeah your formating sucks, but that's no biggie |
| 17:48.59 | nightstrike | hehe, it looks really good in the pdf :D |
| 17:49.32 | JefferyM | I'm sure it does, but PDFs can't be commented on and tracked on the interwebs in a colaborative means :) |
| 17:49.40 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5611 10/w/User:Nightstrike: /* How? */ |
| 17:50.23 | nightstrike | :P |
| 17:50.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5612 10/w/User:Nightstrike: put the project in there, so we know what one is being talked about ;) |
| 17:51.18 | trepan | :P = i know it's still messed-up :: or :: :P = i mock you with my tongue? |
| 17:51.45 | nightstrike | :P = i know it's still messed up |
| 17:52.31 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5613 10/w/User:Nightstrike: nesting is good |
| 17:53.14 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5614 10/w/User:Nightstrike: |
| 17:53.26 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5615 10/w/User:Nightstrike: wiki want double spaces |
| 17:53.47 | JefferyM | what the hell is the * for? |
| 17:53.51 | JefferyM | you have some disclaimer? |
| 17:54.07 | nightstrike | for collectively referring to libGameState and libGameLogic |
| 17:54.17 | JefferyM | "side effects of lib game include, Nausia, drymouth, and in rare cases, male disfunction" |
| 17:54.34 | nightstrike | like a wildcard |
| 17:54.39 | JefferyM | lame |
| 17:54.43 | nightstrike | should I umm, do away with it? |
| 17:54.44 | JefferyM | name it and be done |
| 17:54.46 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 17:54.47 | nightstrike | ok |
| 17:54.48 | JefferyM | it means nothing |
| 17:54.58 | JefferyM | this is english not a grep |
| 17:55.21 | JefferyM | you don't even need the "into lib game part" |
| 17:55.31 | JefferyM | Modularization of Game Logic and State |
| 17:55.39 | JefferyM | that describes WHAT you are going to do |
| 17:55.48 | JefferyM | the how is in the guts of your proposal |
| 17:58.24 | nightstrike | ok |
| 17:58.35 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5616 10/w/User:Nightstrike: |
| 17:59.11 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Nightstrike 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5617 10/w/User:Nightstrike: |
| 18:00.00 | nightstrike | I've made the necessary changes |
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| 18:37.46 | nightstrike | JefferyM: sorry about leaving in between, the power went off, and I didn't have any battery on. So what changes should I make in the proposal? |
| 18:44.05 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19521 10/trunk/bzflag/include/common.h: * removed the 'typedef __int64 int64_t' for WIN32 (win32.h already defines it) |
| 18:56.15 | brlcad | nightstrike: phase III shouldn't be testing |
| 18:56.26 | brlcad | there needs to be testing from the very beginning and throughout |
| 18:58.03 | brlcad | i'm also not really convinced that a jump straight to two game libs should occur before it's decoupled from the client (and yes, I know jeff wants to go that route) |
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| 19:00.21 | brlcad | that makes for one more step (move && reoganize && refactor) making that refactoring step more error prone imho, as opposed to (move && refactor THEN reorganize && refactor again to the logic/state separation) |
| 19:01.12 | brlcad | more incremental, easier to test, same end result if there are no problems -- but if there are problems, you're not off in a mess of changes that can't be worked |
| 19:03.05 | brlcad | nightstrike: also, no matter what the approach, I'd rather see incremental phases than big categorical phases -- e.g. move shots, then test, move collision detection, then test, move physics drivers, then test, etc |
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| 19:05.35 | brlcad | nightstrike: also, 3.2 should *definitely* not be happening there. it should be clean from the very beginning with attempts to keep it that way throughout (with regards to style, ws, error detection, etc). |
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| 19:25.44 | brlcad | nightstrike: which is back to seeing incremental over categorical phases -- it needs to be "complete code" at every step of the way, http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code_Acceptance <-- 2.6 through 2.9 (not just guidelines) |
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| 19:51.21 | JefferyM | brlcad, I would not be against moving it out to a single lib first then spliting it up as a second step |
| 19:51.40 | JefferyM | that' seems to be a logical workflow to me |
| 19:51.56 | JefferyM | I would just prefer the design understand that the final goal is not a single "master" dll |
| 19:57.27 | nightstrike | sorry for the very late response, brlcad, JefferyM, I shall revamp it once again and let you know |
| 19:57.37 | JefferyM | no worries |
| 19:57.53 | JefferyM | I was at the dentist and getting plants for the aquarium |
| 19:58.06 | nightstrike | so should I stick to just a single lib or two libs? |
| 19:58.30 | JefferyM | well what i'd do, is have your inital task be to get the all the code decoupled from bzflag |
| 19:58.38 | nightstrike | ok |
| 19:58.39 | JefferyM | but don't worry about spliting it into 2 libs right away |
| 19:58.59 | JefferyM | then have a second step be, spliting up that thing into the 2 logical sections |
| 19:59.06 | JefferyM | nothing says this can't be done in stages |
| 19:59.08 | JefferyM | and it should |
| 19:59.30 | JefferyM | cus as brlcad said, there isn't really a "testing phase", since it's all just refactoring |
| 19:59.49 | nightstrike | yes, I understand. And it's obvious that I should be writing clean code! |
| 19:59.52 | JefferyM | at any point in the process you should be able to build and run just fine, just all the code may not be split up the way we want it :) |
| 20:00.05 | JefferyM | so it's allready an iterative process |
| 20:00.14 | nightstrike | yes |
| 20:00.14 | JefferyM | nothing says that we can't iterate on the lib afterwards |
| 20:00.32 | JefferyM | I mean I'm sure when the code is split out, there will be a lot more cleanup we can do once we can see just the "game" code |
| 20:00.47 | nightstrike | so what say I leave phase I as the bzflag code refactoring and migration to libgame |
| 20:00.55 | nightstrike | and phase II as the split up of libgame? |
| 20:01.08 | JefferyM | I'd say phase 1 should be the identification of all the code |
| 20:01.16 | nightstrike | ok |
| 20:01.29 | JefferyM | 2 the split into some module |
| 20:01.46 | JefferyM | 3, refactor that module, and see how it can be best split |
| 20:02.56 | nightstrike | So you mean to say phase 2 is taking bzflag code into libgame, and phase 3 is splitting libgame? |
| 20:07.01 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 20:07.02 | JefferyM | basicly |
| 20:07.16 | JefferyM | the split of libgame will also involve refactoring |
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| 20:07.23 | JefferyM | cus I'm sure there will be better ways to do things |
| 20:07.58 | nightstrike | ok |
| 20:08.00 | JefferyM | the first part should not focus so much on making the code better, just identifying and seperaing |
| 20:08.18 | JefferyM | after it's all together, THEN we make it better and split it up into what is needed |
| 20:08.35 | JefferyM | then we have less to go through, cus all the game code will be together |
| 20:08.56 | nightstrike | true |
| 20:09.09 | nightstrike | ok, I'll spend some more time on the plan tomorrow and I'll get back to you guys. |
| 20:09.18 | JefferyM | and it may even come to the fact that 2 libs isn't a good design at that point, maybe one, highly refacotred will work, or maybe we'll find a third thing that we want to split, etc.. |
| 20:09.24 | JefferyM | that lets you be more flexable |
| 20:09.34 | JefferyM | 2 is what comes to mind for me at first thought |
| 20:09.40 | nightstrike | I was almost going to make it three libs! |
| 20:09.54 | JefferyM | yeah see, maybe that's what we'll need when its' done |
| 20:10.03 | nightstrike | libGameMisc being number 3 |
| 20:10.04 | JefferyM | but it'll be easier to make that call when we have the code seperated |
| 20:10.09 | nightstrike | yes |
| 20:10.12 | JefferyM | that's a stupid name ;) |
| 20:10.20 | nightstrike | man I suck with naming my libs |
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| 20:10.48 | nightstrike | so taking the code out of the clients comes first, then splitting the libs |
| 20:10.51 | nightstrike | right? |
| 20:10.55 | JefferyM | I'm currently doing some experemental code right now that is doing some game stuff a similar way, and I think I'm going to end up with a total of 4 modules |
| 20:11.00 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 20:11.06 | trepan | splitting logic and state; isn't that the exact opposite of OOP? :) |
| 20:11.06 | nightstrike | great! |
| 20:11.20 | JefferyM | trepan, oop isn't always the best thing :) |
| 20:11.27 | nightstrike | so I'll get back to you tomorrow |
| 20:11.33 | nightstrike | thanks for your time guys |
| 20:11.48 | trepan | agreed, but i'm afraid that that particular split won't buy you much in this case |
| 20:12.02 | JefferyM | I think I'll end up with a state class, a "game rules" class, and 2 classes that link the client state and rules and the server state and rules, and do the needed input stuff. |
| 20:12.09 | JefferyM | trepan, possibly |
| 20:12.43 | JefferyM | much of bzflag's "game" is just how the state behaves |
| 20:13.01 | JefferyM | so perhaps the "Game" section is simply the rules for scoring etc.. |
| 20:13.37 | JefferyM | and when things in the state have properties changed (when you get flag effects, etc..) |
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| 20:18.40 | Will07c5 | I have a draft of the proposal for the opengl modularization also I have a list of possible improvements to bzworkbench, comments are obviously appreciated, they are both now on my user page |
| 20:18.51 | JefferyM | cool |
| 20:18.59 | brlcad | likes the sound of that plan |
| 20:18.59 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Will07c5 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5618 10/w/User:Will07c5: |
| 20:20.18 | JefferyM | brlcad, and I'd even be ok if it was all in the same lib and just done with class interfaces |
| 20:20.36 | JefferyM | I just think we need "something" that we can query anywhere that tells us where all the stuff is for the current state |
| 20:20.53 | brlcad | agrees |
| 20:21.05 | JefferyM | and I'd also like to see hooks for making the game logic choices modular/external |
| 20:21.11 | brlcad | I even agree that we might end up with two libs, I just wouldn't jump there for the same reason you mentioned |
| 20:21.11 | JefferyM | however it works out :) |
| 20:21.24 | brlcad | by the time it's broken out and cleaned up, a lot of things might change |
| 20:21.28 | JefferyM | I think we'll end up with 4 distinct things :) |
| 20:21.54 | trepan | brlcad: it'll be playing.cs, bzflag.cs, etc... by then ? |
| 20:21.59 | brlcad | heh |
| 20:22.32 | alexbanceanu | hey |
| 20:22.49 | brlcad | i more care to see him move things incrementally, move something and test it, refactor it and retest it, repeat for next something |
| 20:22.53 | alexbanceanu | i wanted to ask something about splitting the game/opengl logic |
| 20:23.54 | brlcad | ~ask |
| 20:23.55 | ibot | Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. |
| 20:25.05 | alexbanceanu | is it your goal for these projects to bring the logic in one particular zone of code (like for opengl i saw that your code contained opengl calls outside the opengl folder) that already exists, or do you want a clean slate ? |
| 20:25.07 | alexbanceanu | ibot: ok, i'll keep that in mid |
| 20:25.41 | brlcad | alexbanceanu: the idea is to clean up more than a decade of opengl being intertwined throughout the code |
| 20:26.01 | brlcad | isolating the display logic (including the opengl calls themselves) from the game logic |
| 20:26.47 | brlcad | isolating the opengl calls by themselves is one (relatively straightforward albeit tedious) step that will help in that regard |
| 20:27.30 | alexbanceanu | i did take a look through the source code, but i couldn't go that deep into it; is the current opengl zone of the code an interface to be used for opengl rendering? |
| 20:27.57 | JefferyM | brlcad, I think he understood that, so that's good |
| 20:28.27 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, there isn't really a single section where we do all our drawing |
| 20:28.32 | JefferyM | it's spread over a lot of stuff |
| 20:28.36 | brlcad | Will07c5: are those priorities goals/milestones? if so, you should probably say that and try to categorize how much relative effort you think they might entail or what technical substeps are required |
| 20:28.40 | JefferyM | the client, obstacle, geometry |
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| 20:28.52 | JefferyM | that's part of the project is geting it all together |
| 20:29.27 | brlcad | Will07c5: and it could use some write-up about what you understand about the problem and what you propose to do about it, similar to what you wrote for the opengl code section |
| 20:29.39 | Will07c5 | the list of bzworkbench is just for identifying what needs to be done |
| 20:29.45 | Will07c5 | it isn't the actual proposal |
| 20:29.50 | JefferyM | trepan, I don't think brlcad is as big of a fan of C# as I am now :) |
| 20:30.07 | JefferyM | and I have NO clue how it'll work on the mac, that's one thing I want to find out with my experiment |
| 20:30.16 | JefferyM | how the distobution would work out |
| 20:30.36 | alexbanceanu | ok, so then what is the opengl part of the code for? |
| 20:30.49 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, what part of the code are you talking about? |
| 20:31.00 | alexbanceanu | the ogl folder |
| 20:31.14 | brlcad | opengl state management is in there |
| 20:31.21 | JefferyM | yeah that's just a couple utils |
| 20:31.25 | brlcad | not actual drawing, though |
| 20:31.30 | JefferyM | it's just poorly named :) |
| 20:31.32 | brlcad | the actual drawing is done elsewhere |
| 20:31.37 | alexbanceanu | ah i see |
| 20:31.40 | JefferyM | everywhere |
| 20:31.48 | trepan | 3D/ is a misnomer as well |
| 20:31.53 | trepan | textures and fonts :) |
| 20:31.55 | Will07c5 | brlcad: when I write the actual proposal for bzworkbench it will have all those things |
| 20:31.57 | JefferyM | indeed |
| 20:32.02 | JefferyM | it used to do more |
| 20:32.15 | alexbanceanu | so it would be cool to have an opengldrawingsourcefolder where the drawing would occur |
| 20:32.50 | Will07c5 | I am looking for feedback on if I'm missing any important tasks that need to be done |
| 20:32.57 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, I'd not call it that, but that is the exact goal of that project idea, having a module that does all the drawing. |
| 20:33.04 | trepan | alexbanceanu: ihopeyoucouldfindabetternamethanthat |
| 20:33.35 | JefferyM | I'd call it, bzEngine, drawSysem, etc.. ;) |
| 20:33.37 | alexbanceanu | yes... naming is always an issue :P |
| 20:33.39 | JefferyM | but yes that is the goal |
| 20:33.57 | JefferyM | to have a place that does all the rendering, and has some API to the rest of the code |
| 20:34.18 | JefferyM | then it would be easier for us to replace that section with other rendering solutions if we want to |
| 20:34.29 | JefferyM | or to remove that rendering system, for headless use, etc.. |
| 20:35.01 | alexbanceanu | tbh i was a bit confused, i had opened the ogl folder, saw the readme that stated "drawing occurs everywhere in the code", and then looked for some such example in all the sourcefiles, and found some. didn't actually go into ogl source files to see what they did. |
| 20:35.30 | JefferyM | welcome to open source development, soemthings things have REALLY bad names ;) |
| 20:35.36 | alexbanceanu | :) |
| 20:35.38 | JefferyM | sometimes even |
| 20:35.47 | alexbanceanu | usually some small odd animal |
| 20:36.41 | alexbanceanu | onward to my second quetion for the night: what should the application contain? |
| 20:37.49 | JefferyM | something about yourself, an overview of the project idea, an outline of what you feel the work will entail, and a timeline of how you think the work will procede. |
| 20:38.06 | brlcad | Will07c5: I figured as much, you just asked for comments ;) |
| 20:38.17 | JefferyM | if you are submting multiple proposals, then you can just duplicate the part about yourself |
| 20:38.24 | alexbanceanu | and how deep in the project ideea should i go? |
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| 20:38.47 | JefferyM | as deep as you feel you should to give us a good idea of your understanding of the project |
| 20:38.52 | brlcad | alexbanceanu: as deep as you're comfortable with, the more the better generally speaking |
| 20:39.06 | Will07c5 | brlcad: thanks for the comments anyway, they will be useful when writing the actual proposal :) |
| 20:39.43 | JefferyM | all of you also, please remember that you CAN edit your applications after you submit them, so don't feel you have to wait till the end to submit |
| 20:40.02 | JefferyM | we will GLADLY go over them when they are submited, and provide comments for changes, etc.. |
| 20:40.19 | JefferyM | we'd rather have you sbumit early and edit, then at the end, and have no chance for changes. |
| 20:40.37 | brlcad | also folks, don't forget to work on a patch(es) if you haven't already -- especially for everyone applying to work on one of the refactoring ideas, it looks like it's going to be pretty competitive so your communication skills and your ability to demonstrate your programming skills are will be pretty strong selection factors |
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| 20:41.01 | JefferyM | if you can't think of a patch to do, just ask us to give you a task |
| 20:41.30 | brlcad | thinks someone should fix the crash-on-exit bug if the FontManager's destructor is called |
| 20:41.33 | JefferyM | and we'll give you one. mostly we just want to judge your skill and how well you work with our build system and code. |
| 20:42.14 | JefferyM | it also is good to see how you take direction, and interact :) |
| 20:42.23 | alexbanceanu | ok... and my last question until i actualy submit a proposal : the testing enviornment (which at first glance seemed a good choice but i'm not so sure anymore..) do you want it to be like a virtual network with emulated message passing so the network parameters can be properly controled or is it meant to be a distributed testing system over actual game clients and servers that would send the test data? |
| 20:44.05 | brlcad | alexbanceanu: I'd think an actual testing framework so we could run and observe actual clients/servers |
| 20:44.07 | JefferyM | lets brlcad answer THAT one |
| 20:44.27 | alexbanceanu | so the latter of the two |
| 20:45.02 | brlcad | basically -- though there is lots of ways you could hijack an app, or make a few small mods |
| 20:45.10 | brlcad | like a proxy client that talks to a proxy server |
| 20:45.40 | brlcad | a proxy client -> client -> proxy server -> server -> proxy clients loop |
| 20:45.59 | JefferyM | thinks someone should write a graphics testing plugin that generates the same map/spawns/motion for FPS comparisons :) |
| 20:46.13 | alexbanceanu | true, but such a proxy client can make the packet routing in-memory in case you wanted the testing enviroment like a vm or over the actual network |
| 20:46.16 | brlcad | so that stats could be injected on the proxy client or the proxy server to measure network, packet counts, sizes, mess with latency/jitter/loss, etc |
| 20:46.46 | brlcad | alexbanceanu: a vm solution could work too, just harder to make "practical" I think |
| 20:46.52 | alexbanceanu | ye |
| 20:47.08 | alexbanceanu | what network technology do you use? |
| 20:47.12 | brlcad | eh? |
| 20:47.18 | alexbanceanu | tcp/udp? |
| 20:47.22 | brlcad | yes |
| 20:47.24 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 20:47.27 | alexbanceanu | ok |
| 20:47.30 | alexbanceanu | nothing fancy then |
| 20:47.38 | JefferyM | doesn't see how sockets are a "technology" :) |
| 20:48.03 | brlcad | we did have some multicast logic in at one point and rudimentary ipv6 support, but doubt it works atm |
| 20:48.04 | alexbanceanu | i've heard of some applications that made their own transport layer |
| 20:48.20 | JefferyM | for a game? |
| 20:48.26 | alexbanceanu | no |
| 20:48.34 | alexbanceanu | but you never know... |
| 20:48.50 | JefferyM | that would be strange indeed |
| 20:48.51 | alexbanceanu | so thought i should ask |
| 20:49.04 | brlcad | most I know of are still a transport layer on top of udp |
| 20:49.08 | JefferyM | I'd think that would have a lot of problems on consumer nats/firewalls |
| 20:49.24 | JefferyM | yeah, you can d your own app protcoll on UDP, that's not uncommon |
| 20:49.36 | Cygal | concerning the "two clients connecting the server then leaving causes the server to crash" bug, does anyone knows of a specific way to reproduce it? nothing crashes here |
| 20:49.40 | JefferyM | raknet, TNL< etc all do that |
| 20:50.07 | brlcad | Cygal is a bug hunting fiend going for the head shots |
| 20:50.14 | brlcad | #3? :) |
| 20:50.19 | brlcad | woot |
| 20:50.25 | JefferyM | not all bugs in there may still be valid |
| 20:50.50 | alexbanceanu | also, i have a slight problem with building the project. should runing the autoscript, configure and make on a machine(linux) with sdl and curl installed be ok? |
| 20:51.01 | brlcad | yeah, Cygal -- that one was pretty egregious and obvious -- but I think the two clients needed to come from separate IPs |
| 20:51.14 | brlcad | start up a server, connect with your client, then have someone else connect |
| 20:51.22 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, should be, what errors do you get? |
| 20:51.26 | brlcad | then have one player leave .. boom |
| 20:51.28 | Cygal | okay :) |
| 20:51.37 | Cygal | (did not understand the #3 thing.) |
| 20:51.42 | brlcad | np |
| 20:51.47 | alexbanceanu | JefferyM: think its because i was using it inside V |
| 20:51.52 | alexbanceanu | MWare |
| 20:51.57 | JefferyM | should not matter |
| 20:52.01 | JefferyM | does it compile? |
| 20:52.04 | alexbanceanu | yep |
| 20:52.14 | JefferyM | do you have mesa installed? |
| 20:52.18 | alexbanceanu | nope |
| 20:52.27 | alexbanceanu | it was a clean machine |
| 20:52.37 | JefferyM | that would be the problem, you have to have at least some kind of openGL system installed |
| 20:52.43 | JefferyM | mesa will run fine in software |
| 20:52.46 | JefferyM | it'll just be slow |
| 20:52.53 | alexbanceanu | what is mesa? |
| 20:53.09 | JefferyM | a software open GL implemntation |
| 20:53.16 | JefferyM | why are you doing it in a VM? |
| 20:53.17 | alexbanceanu | and shouldn't the configure report it as missing? |
| 20:54.30 | alexbanceanu | my real linux instalatin crashed |
| 20:54.30 | alexbanceanu | and installing libraries is so much faster in linux than windows |
| 20:54.31 | JefferyM | it should but having mesa dev libs may not mean you have the runtimes, tho that would be odd. |
| 20:54.31 | JefferyM | what compiler do you have on windows? |
| 20:54.31 | alexbanceanu | intel and microsoft |
| 20:54.31 | JefferyM | since we don't actualy need any other non MS libs to build on windows |
| 20:54.31 | JefferyM | what eversion of visual C++? |
| 20:54.31 | alexbanceanu | 2008 |
| 20:54.33 | JefferyM | do you have the direct X SDK? |
| 20:54.34 | alexbanceanu | (yes i saw that your solutions are older vers) |
| 20:54.35 | Will07c5 | [15:49] <brlcad> Cygal is a bug hunting fiend going for the head shots <-- yeah he shot me when I was on the server trying to figure out the dead reckoning bug :P |
| 20:54.47 | alexbanceanu | i do; but still needed curl |
| 20:54.49 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, no the solutions for trunk are 2008 |
| 20:54.57 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, what version of bzflag are you building? |
| 20:54.59 | Cygal | Will07c5: :P |
| 20:55.10 | alexbanceanu | 2.0.10 |
| 20:55.13 | JefferyM | that is old |
| 20:55.24 | JefferyM | you want to be using the trunk code from our SVN system |
| 20:55.28 | brlcad | Will07c5: hehe |
| 20:55.31 | JefferyM | all SOC development will happen in that |
| 20:55.33 | alexbanceanu | .... |
| 20:55.45 | alexbanceanu | web-site called it "last stable windows release" |
| 20:55.51 | JefferyM | sure |
| 20:55.58 | JefferyM | but you are a DEVELOPER |
| 20:56.04 | JefferyM | you have to use the development code |
| 20:56.04 | alexbanceanu | so thought i should start with something safe just to get a feel |
| 20:56.06 | JefferyM | not the last release |
| 20:56.10 | JefferyM | don't |
| 20:56.13 | JefferyM | use trunk |
| 20:56.26 | JefferyM | much has changed in trunk from 2.0.10 |
| 20:56.31 | alexbanceanu | i see |
| 20:56.38 | brlcad | well you can, just it won't give you much of a useful feel relevant to what you will be doing |
| 20:56.40 | alexbanceanu | so it will need no non-MS libraries? |
| 20:56.46 | JefferyM | yep |
| 20:56.48 | brlcad | I mean some of the code is in the same place, but there have been lots of changes |
| 20:56.50 | alexbanceanu | ah thats nice |
| 20:56.53 | JefferyM | curl and all otehrs are included |
| 20:57.02 | JefferyM | I've got it setup to build out of the box as long as you have the directX SDK |
| 20:57.27 | JefferyM | 2.0.10 was released before VC 2008 even existed :) |
| 20:57.39 | alexbanceanu | i heard you talking earlyer about making patches as a "sample code" for applications |
| 20:57.44 | alexbanceanu | can you give an example? |
| 20:58.08 | JefferyM | we want you to make a patch that is Some modification to our code |
| 20:58.16 | JefferyM | so we know you can build, run, and code, etc.. |
| 20:58.20 | JefferyM | it's a basic skills test |
| 20:58.35 | JefferyM | it dosn't even have to be a bug fix, it can be any change |
| 20:58.52 | brlcad | Will07c5: I'm not sure I agree with your bzwb priorities and I think there are a few core tasks missing that would be rather critical to complete |
| 20:58.54 | JefferyM | just show us that you can code, and use our tools/project, etc.. |
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| 20:59.51 | alexbanceanu | well, if the build process is dependency-free, that should be pretty easy |
| 21:00.01 | JefferyM | that was my goal for windows :) |
| 21:00.13 | Will07c5 | brlcad: can you tell me what tasks you would add and which priorities are wrong? |
| 21:00.44 | JefferyM | I wanted the code to be able to work with the free versions of visual C++ as simple as they could |
| 21:00.50 | JefferyM | to help new devs get going fast |
| 21:00.51 | brlcad | Will07c5: e.g., much more important to get the app to an integrated clean complete working state, instead of improving features it technically provides (just possibly doesn't provide very well) |
| 21:01.28 | Will07c5 | I was told that fixing the GUI was the number one priority |
| 21:01.41 | brlcad | Will07c5: e.g., multiple viewports aren't incredibly important so long as you a viewport and a means to change that view (at least in terms of priorities) |
| 21:01.42 | JefferyM | that would be the "Integrated" step :) |
| 21:01.54 | brlcad | Will07c5: yes, the gui is really the task |
| 21:01.54 | JefferyM | ohh yeah viewports can come later |
| 21:02.04 | brlcad | but that means a lot of things :) |
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| 21:02.15 | brlcad | usability is the big one |
| 21:02.17 | JefferyM | what it nees is a clean gui for editing |
| 21:02.22 | JefferyM | yeah something that people can pick up |
| 21:02.27 | JefferyM | not fancy bells and whissles |
| 21:02.33 | JefferyM | but a good solid editing pardigm |
| 21:02.36 | brlcad | it can be made pretty later |
| 21:02.41 | Will07c5 | so viewports can go to medium priority? |
| 21:02.44 | JefferyM | low |
| 21:02.47 | Will07c5 | ok |
| 21:02.47 | brlcad | right now, it's not even releasable |
| 21:02.53 | JefferyM | like V2 |
| 21:03.04 | brlcad | make sure all basic editing ops are implemented (and working) |
| 21:03.11 | JefferyM | you don't even know if viewports would make it more or less usable untill you get a design pardim going |
| 21:04.09 | JefferyM | if your idea is to just "copy blender" or something, that may not be the best thing, as editing objects is much more simplistic then full modeling, so it should have a simpler interface. |
| 21:04.51 | JefferyM | I'd think the first thing you would want to do is take a look at how maps are made now (wiki has a lot of info), so you can see what the workflow is like |
| 21:04.54 | brlcad | brain-dead simple |
| 21:05.16 | JefferyM | yeah, my inital thoughts are just simple widgets on the objects that allow draging, snaping, etc.. |
| 21:05.24 | JefferyM | and some tools to align objects by face, etc.. |
| 21:05.39 | JefferyM | and then some grouping and selection tools for manipulating more then one thing at a time |
| 21:05.43 | Will07c5 | I would think copying blender is a bad idea :P |
| 21:05.46 | JefferyM | that's basic editor functions i needs. |
| 21:06.15 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Will07c5 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5619 10/w/User:Will07c5: |
| 21:06.26 | brlcad | drag'n'drop in the gui and to/from widgets (e.g. if you had an object or tools palette), mouse interaction for all basic edits |
| 21:06.51 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 21:07.02 | Will07c5 | ok cool |
| 21:07.10 | JefferyM | size/rotate widgets, etc. |
| 21:07.33 | JefferyM | at some point it should have the option of numeric entry, but that shold only be if you need very precise or specific input |
| 21:07.37 | JefferyM | typing sucks |
| 21:08.21 | JefferyM | most maps shuld be able to be done with smart grid snaps, etc.. |
| 21:08.41 | JefferyM | most people would flesh out a map starting out with a 5 unit snap, then refine from there. |
| 21:09.25 | Will07c5 | I would think that numeric input could be under medium priority since grid snaps will work for basic editing |
| 21:09.59 | JefferyM | sure |
| 21:10.19 | trepan | JefferyM: that sounds like an organized approach, think it applies to "most" bz mapping? |
| 21:10.31 | JefferyM | heh |
| 21:10.47 | JefferyM | I think if we gave them the good tools they'd do better then now |
| 21:10.56 | JefferyM | well I HOPE they would |
| 21:11.10 | JefferyM | they haven't had a really good tool, so it's hard to say what they would if they had it |
| 21:11.21 | JefferyM | I'd at least write tutorials that would start out that way, etc.. |
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| 21:15.22 | JefferyM | does not want to go back to fixing spindle directions:( |
| 21:16.20 | Will07c5 | ok so is there anything on the backend of bzwb that needs to be fixed/improved? |
| 21:16.42 | JefferyM | there are a few object types it won't read |
| 21:16.59 | JefferyM | I don't remember what they were |
| 21:17.14 | Will07c5 | how important is it for bzwb to be able to read them? |
| 21:18.22 | JefferyM | very |
| 21:18.25 | JefferyM | that's a usability thing |
| 21:18.54 | JefferyM | if it can't read/write the map, it can't edit it |
| 21:18.54 | Will07c5 | hah good point |
| 21:19.10 | JefferyM | it shuld not be a hard task, most objects are there, it just needs a couple more |
| 21:19.16 | JefferyM | like mesh IIRC |
| 21:19.41 | JefferyM | I think tetra was missing, but we can deprecate that |
| 21:19.47 | JefferyM | mesh > tetra |
| 21:19.55 | Will07c5 | ok |
| 21:20.21 | Will07c5 | my build of bzwb doesn't want to load obj files, is it supposed to be able to? |
| 21:20.56 | JefferyM | I don't think so |
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| 21:21.09 | JefferyM | a map is not just a single mesh |
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| 21:21.32 | JefferyM | one of the ideas much later was to allow it to read obj files to import them as meshes |
| 21:21.41 | *** part/#bzflag KingOfAll (n=opera@78.147.196.165) |
| 21:21.41 | JefferyM | but we have modeltool for obj->BZW conversions |
| 21:21.49 | Will07c5 | ah ok |
| 21:22.21 | JefferyM | a map has a lot more info then just a single obj file can hold |
| 21:22.30 | Will07c5 | it just kept complaining about a missing plugin for obj files so I wasn't sure if I missed something in the compilation |
| 21:22.39 | JefferyM | it's better to think of a map as a collection of obj files |
| 21:22.41 | Will07c5 | yeah I know obj is a very simple format |
| 21:23.18 | JefferyM | it's an acceptable format for static models |
| 21:25.53 | Will07c5 | yeah I was just referring to the fact that bzwb just complains about missing a plugin for obj models whenever I try to add any object to the map |
| 21:26.06 | JefferyM | ahh |
| 21:26.11 | JefferyM | then that would be a bug to fix ;) |
| 21:26.31 | Cygal | * Client is disconnected with no message when the -botsPerIP parameter is |
| 21:26.35 | Cygal | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:27.03 | Cygal | on trunk, it only allows botsPerIp bots, killing the other bots, not the player. is that a bug? |
| 21:27.20 | JefferyM | that is how it should work |
| 21:27.32 | JefferyM | it caps them to that many bots |
| 21:27.47 | JefferyM | they may not know the limit when they connect |
| 21:27.57 | JefferyM | so punishing there player would be wrong |
| 21:28.13 | JefferyM | but limitin there bots is acceptable |
| 21:28.30 | JefferyM | there are valid uses of bots from non abbusive players |
| 21:28.39 | JefferyM | so we can't be mean and kick them |
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| 21:28.57 | JefferyM | now it would be nice if we could send the real player a message saying "hey we booted X of your bots" |
| 21:29.42 | Wyk3d | JefferyM: i was thinking of adding an admin interface to add/remove groups for example (because doing it with ldap commands is fairly painful) .. so if the access to the server where the daemon will be hosted is over something like SSH then a local interface would be enough right ? |
| 21:29.56 | JefferyM | Wyk3d, have you seen the group manager proposal? |
| 21:30.42 | JefferyM | well I guess it's more then a proposal |
| 21:30.44 | JefferyM | it's a project |
| 21:30.51 | JefferyM | it was started but never finished |
| 21:30.53 | Wyk3d | sufficiently long enough ago i guess |
| 21:30.56 | JefferyM | that's how I want groups managed |
| 21:31.16 | JefferyM | I don't care what the backend is, but I want a web page/site where users can manage there own groups |
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| 21:31.36 | JefferyM | we have to get it out of phpbb |
| 21:33.21 | JefferyM | the general idea was to let users register an "org" that was the first part of the group name, then they make N subgroups that follow the org.whatever format |
| 21:33.41 | JefferyM | and they set up groups of other users that can login and admin who's in those groups, etc |
| 21:33.55 | JefferyM | then it's all self admining :) |
| 21:34.18 | JefferyM | that also gives us some contact info for each org, etc.. |
| 21:34.22 | JefferyM | in case we need it |
| 21:35.45 | Wyk3d | so that means i cannot make the assumption that new groups and/or new users in groups will be addes seldom ? |
| 21:35.50 | Wyk3d | *added |
| 21:36.00 | JefferyM | they will be added ALL The time |
| 21:36.13 | JefferyM | server owners will manage them like mad :) |
| 21:36.31 | Wyk3d | right so i was thinking of using ldap for but then definitely sql is needed |
| 21:36.31 | JefferyM | now we can have the web interface run on the same machine as one of the ldap nodes, that's fine |
| 21:36.48 | JefferyM | so you can have the web interface just shell command to ldap if you want. |
| 21:36.52 | Wyk3d | ldap is not the thing to use when you have frequent changes |
| 21:37.04 | JefferyM | yeah there will need to be at least a little database for the "extra" info |
| 21:37.16 | JefferyM | like how frequent? |
| 21:37.20 | JefferyM | 20 a day? |
| 21:37.26 | JefferyM | 100 a day? |
| 21:37.49 | Epyon | hi all, long time no see |
| 21:37.54 | Wyk3d | well it wouldn't be able to handle someone flooding 10000 in a second |
| 21:37.59 | JefferyM | word up Epyon, ho's it going? |
| 21:38.05 | JefferyM | Wyk3d, oh no, it own't be that much |
| 21:38.17 | JefferyM | 1000 group memeber edits a day would floor me |
| 21:38.19 | Epyon | kinda chaotically, I'd say, but real fine :) |
| 21:39.04 | JefferyM | Wyk3d, but people will go and add/remove people from the groups, create new ones when they need it or make new servers, etc.. |
| 21:39.18 | JefferyM | it's not something that happens with every server connection tho |
| 21:39.34 | Wyk3d | ok i guess it should handle it .. |
| 21:39.41 | JefferyM | right now we have them post the group they want on bzbb and we go and add it, then they have the ability to manage who is in it |
| 21:39.49 | Wyk3d | add/remove for online server does happen much more often right ? |
| 21:40.11 | JefferyM | yeah server add/removes can happen a couple times every min |
| 21:40.20 | JefferyM | as well as updates |
| 21:40.32 | Epyon | I'll be quiting my job in the summer, so I'm getting a look around GSoC orgs again :P |
| 21:40.44 | JefferyM | Epyon, what job was that? |
| 21:40.57 | Epyon | Linux server development for Nokia |
| 21:41.09 | JefferyM | sounds like a sweet job, why quit? |
| 21:41.31 | Epyon | Too much other fun things to do :P |
| 21:41.45 | Epyon | Also I wanted to get some time to work on my PhD |
| 21:42.06 | JefferyM | what orgs are you going to apply to? |
| 21:42.28 | Epyon | Still wondering. |
| 21:42.45 | Epyon | The ones that catch my eye this year are TP, BZ and boost |
| 21:42.50 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dyndsl-091-096-008-134.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 21:43.17 | JefferyM | and what were you thinking of ding for bz? |
| 21:45.14 | Epyon | Display code modularization |
| 21:45.44 | JefferyM | cool |
| 21:46.11 | Epyon | I just wanted to get a thumbs up on writing a proposal ;) |
| 21:46.27 | JefferyM | it's not our place to tell you what you can and can not propose |
| 22:01.14 | Wyk3d | JefferyM: i'm guessing the plan is still to have the forum and wiki use the same usernames as the game, so for that the existing database would need to be converted to ldap, that would need an application to convert it or do you know of something that can already do that ? |
| 22:04.53 | Wyk3d | i'm guessing adding sql support to bzauthd and just selecting all users and running the registration routine shouldn't be hard but if there's something easier .. |
| 22:06.59 | JefferyM | yes, that is an implied step in the conversion process |
| 22:07.08 | JefferyM | making soemthing to move the users over |
| 22:07.24 | JefferyM | I figured we'd just write a script or something that walked the database |
| 22:07.30 | JefferyM | blast007 would know more |
| 22:08.05 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=spldart2@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 22:08.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 22:08.13 | JefferyM | we can do it ether way, I don't know what the advantages/disavantages of each way would be |
| 22:08.24 | JefferyM | blast007 and brlcad would be the ones to talk about that part |
| 22:08.33 | JefferyM | I just know how I'd like the frontends to work re. users |
| 22:11.13 | JefferyM | goes to shoot whoever thought it was ok for RPMs to be integers |
| 22:23.57 | spldart | Woah.. big svn update and lots of curl errors 8-O. :~) |
| 22:25.21 | JefferyM | windows probably won't work |
| 22:27.41 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=spldart2@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 22:27.41 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 22:27.53 | spldart | meh |
| 22:27.59 | spldart | connection is sucking today |
| 22:30.27 | JefferyM | BulletCatcher, is curlBuild.h built by configure? |
| 22:33.39 | alexbanceanu | hey again, just wanted to let you know i submitted an application, let me know what you think when you get a chance to look it over |
| 22:34.36 | *** join/#bzflag PositiveG (n=sniper15@S0106002191dd19a8.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 22:40.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r19522 10/trunk/bzflag/ (3 files in 2 dirs): |
| 22:40.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: update project to new curl files |
| 22:40.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: windows don't run configure, so it can't include a file that is generated by it, |
| 22:40.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: so just try to make a static one that will work just for windows, have to name |
| 22:40.57 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: it something else so it doesn't conflict with the one configure MAY make. |
| 22:41.58 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r19523 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/include/curl/Makefile.am: the package system needs to include the windows header too |
| 22:45.54 | spldart | "CURL_SIZEOF_LONG definition is missing!" seems to be a common motif now 8-() |
| 22:46.20 | JefferyM | never said that was all the changes I had to make |
| 22:46.26 | spldart | hehe |
| 22:46.27 | spldart | sry |
| 22:46.34 | JefferyM | consider windows broken untill you hear otherwise |
| 22:46.59 | spldart | I should have done my intended BUGS checkup yesterday :-/ |
| 22:47.27 | JefferyM | how coudl you know that BulletCatcher was going to update to curl today? |
| 22:47.28 | spldart | Was gonnna see how many I could reproduce of mine first then work into others |
| 22:47.58 | spldart | NP.. I'll put that on the back burner :) |
| 22:48.37 | spldart | I forget. Is Bullet and winderz or linux or mac peep? |
| 22:49.11 | JefferyM | huh? |
| 22:49.14 | JefferyM | that isn't english |
| 22:49.43 | spldart | Heh.. It's closer to English than any other language. |
| 22:49.44 | spldart | meh |
| 22:50.06 | spldart | Just curious as to his OS of prefered dev work. |
| 22:50.08 | JefferyM | that still dosn't make it english |
| 22:50.14 | JefferyM | he is a linux user I belive |
| 22:50.15 | spldart | I should know but don't remember. |
| 22:50.23 | JefferyM | curl updates ALWAY come from linux users ;) |
| 22:50.28 | spldart | Ah |
| 22:50.30 | spldart | Your right |
| 22:50.37 | spldart | slaps his forhead... duh |
| 22:50.42 | JefferyM | they can't get there OS stable enough to keep the same lib for any length of time ;) |
| 22:50.47 | brlcad | JefferyM: how about managing groups from within the client? |
| 22:51.01 | JefferyM | brlcad, not as intutive, but sure it's better then phpbb |
| 22:51.18 | JefferyM | usualy you don't manage your server setup from the game |
| 22:51.25 | JefferyM | and people may want to add users with out firing up the game |
| 22:51.29 | JefferyM | GU, etc.. |
| 22:51.45 | spldart | has been neglecting linux at home because of the fun with the pc and the beta 7 windows tinkering. |
| 22:52.00 | JefferyM | currently they use phpbb, and that seems to be a valid workflow (i.e. a wep page) |
| 22:52.57 | *** part/#bzflag [Po]lentino (n=polentin@ppp-201-147.21-151.libero.it) |
| 22:53.56 | JefferyM | if I ran some kind of leauge that had users, I'd want to have a web interface, because I could not fire up the client at work just to add BoBZ to the group so he can play :) |
| 22:54.47 | brlcad | JefferyM: ah right, never mind -- forgot that it's really a server issue |
| 22:54.54 | JefferyM | heh |
| 22:55.08 | brlcad | was thinking about maybe a way for users to see what groups there are, request being added to ones, etc |
| 22:55.09 | JefferyM | managing a player profile from in game, sure that'd be a usefull option |
| 22:55.15 | JefferyM | sure that'd be handy |
| 22:55.17 | brlcad | right, as part of profile |
| 22:55.34 | brlcad | 4.0 ;) |
| 22:55.48 | JefferyM | once group manager is done, we can keep visability perms per org and group, and easaly do in game group requests |
| 22:56.01 | JefferyM | then we'd have info on who runs what group/org etc.. |
| 22:56.21 | JefferyM | org owners could set groups as "open" and let people join them from in game, that'd be nice |
| 22:56.43 | *** join/#bzflag temp_dist (n=temp_dis@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction) |
| 22:58.50 | JefferyM | I could see a league setting up a 2 tierd system where they have an open "feeder" group that anyone can join to try the leauge out (rules, style, etc..) then after they get a bit into it they join a team and send a request to join the closed "real" group |
| 22:58.57 | brlcad | Epyon: I have to be honest that I'm disinclined to go for "round three" for *any* student if only to give other students an opportunity |
| 22:59.01 | brlcad | you've had two good years in the program :) |
| 22:59.22 | JefferyM | with group manager the leauge could even set up a group per team with the team leader as the admin of the group :) |
| 22:59.42 | brlcad | plus the point is to attract new devs -- if you're not attracted by now, you're not going to be .. :) |
| 23:01.22 | L4m3r | brlcad, I see that as an important criterion this time around |
| 23:01.44 | brlcad | and on top of that, only two or three slots this year |
| 23:01.51 | L4m3r | >_< |
| 23:01.59 | brlcad | L4m3r: it's been an important criteria every year, no? |
| 23:02.00 | JefferyM | were you pondering L4m3r ? |
| 23:02.15 | L4m3r | I would imagine that there are going to be more applicants this time, ya know, money being short and all |
| 23:02.34 | L4m3r | and thus, more people who want to get paid and get out |
| 23:02.38 | brlcad | and fewer slots available -- going to be more competitive |
| 23:02.38 | Epyon | 'guess that coming back each year is a form of attraction :P. Too bad that I don't have time to do it on a daily baisis. |
| 23:02.53 | L4m3r | not that there's anything wrong with that.... just not what we want for this project I would think |
| 23:02.58 | JefferyM | can someone run config on the curent build and gimme there curlbuild.h file? |
| 23:03.11 | Epyon | Anyway, if I do get into soc in another org, I'd still like to clean up the mess in mzwgen from last year. |
| 23:03.25 | JefferyM | heard that before ;) |
| 23:03.32 | brlcad | Epyon: attracted to making the time, most of us have other jobs too :) |
| 23:03.52 | L4m3r | JefferyM: I do not yet know what my work arrangements will be this summer |
| 23:03.54 | brlcad | working on it outside of gsoc is a matter of priorities |
| 23:04.06 | L4m3r | but there is an elevated risk that I will get screwed :) |
| 23:04.16 | brlcad | (and fatigue and interest) |
| 23:04.22 | Epyon | brlcad, full-time + PhD studies + running lectures + living with a female = no time :P |
| 23:04.49 | spldart | All you had to say was 'living with a female' |
| 23:04.55 | spldart | :-p |
| 23:04.57 | JefferyM | then those things obvioulsy interest you more |
| 23:06.54 | brlcad | it's not a critique, it's just the way it is -- if you're not doing it, there are other things you are prioritizing that supercede (hence the making time aspect) |
| 23:07.30 | Epyon | It's not the question of intersets, its the questions of obligations. I do not have time for my own projects as for now. |
| 23:07.52 | Epyon | brlcad, but yeah, I get your point. |
| 23:07.54 | brlcad | never said it was just interest |
| 23:08.06 | brlcad | just like it's not necessarily fatigue either |
| 23:08.25 | JefferyM | comeon, somone has to have a tree on linux :) |
| 23:08.29 | JefferyM | just need one file |
| 23:09.15 | L4m3r | runs svn up |
| 23:09.20 | L4m3r | this is gonna take a while... |
| 23:09.56 | Epyon | is currently unsuccessfuly trying to install debian on a NC10 -_- |
| 23:10.34 | Epyon | brlcad, do I still have commit access? |
| 23:10.45 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r19524 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/curl/missing: don't add generated files |
| 23:10.45 | brlcad | Epyon: some reason you shouldn't? :) |
| 23:10.51 | Epyon | :) |
| 23:11.05 | temp_dist | svn up gave me "svn: Failed to add file 'src/other/curl/missing': object of the same name already exists " |
| 23:11.27 | brlcad | temp_dist: svn up |
| 23:11.30 | brlcad | rm missing |
| 23:12.43 | temp_dist | thx |
| 23:14.37 | brlcad | holy cow curl configure takes forever |
| 23:15.02 | brlcad | type checks on recvfrom() and send() .. they must actually establish connections or something |
| 23:15.37 | brlcad | JefferyM: http://bzflag.bz/tmp/curlbuild.h |
| 23:16.17 | JefferyM | thanks |
| 23:17.18 | brlcad | er, and that's from a 32-bit box |
| 23:17.26 | brlcad | the defs change for 64-bit |
| 23:17.51 | JefferyM | we don't have a 64 bit build for windows at this time :) |
| 23:21.03 | brlcad | kicks CIA-11 |
| 23:21.03 | CIA-11 | ow |
| 23:21.19 | Epyon | wow, a new CIA emote :P |
| 23:21.33 | brlcad | nah, that's an oldie |
| 23:21.51 | Epyon | last year there was only kick and hug |
| 23:22.00 | Epyon | or smth |
| 23:22.25 | Epyon | oh, kill and hug :P |
| 23:23.09 | *** join/#bzflag Swigg_ (n=Default@24-158-73-008.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com) |
| 23:33.07 | JefferyM | great.... brlcad can I have curlver.h too |
| 23:33.11 | JefferyM | this is not looking plesant |
| 23:41.33 | *** join/#bzflag Default__ (n=Default@24-158-73-008.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com) |
| 23:41.40 | JefferyM | cURL can officialy SUCK IT |
| 23:43.18 | spldart | heh |
| 23:44.15 | JefferyM | theyv'e basily made it impossible to do our builds the way we normaly do with out mods |
| 23:45.01 | JefferyM | unless I get REALLY tricky with the windows build system |
| 23:45.25 | alexbanceanu | erm... is there something wrong with windows curl? |
| 23:45.35 | JefferyM | it dosn't have one |
| 23:45.40 | alexbanceanu | ah i see |
| 23:45.44 | JefferyM | windows does not have the library |
| 23:45.57 | JefferyM | you would do it with windows calls on windows |
| 23:46.17 | alexbanceanu | i did find a curl library for windows but its a much older version than the linux one |
| 23:46.26 | alexbanceanu | i take it that it wont work |
| 23:46.40 | JefferyM | curl can be built on windows |
| 23:46.49 | JefferyM | that's why we include the sources for it |
| 23:47.00 | JefferyM | I just have to friggin get it to work with there latest source changes |
| 23:48.30 | alexbanceanu | btw, i wrote a proposal, when can i check back with you guys for a review? |
| 23:48.49 | JefferyM | you submited it to the application? or put it on your wiki? |
| 23:49.06 | alexbanceanu | to the application. |
| 23:49.11 | alexbanceanu | i dont have a wiki |
| 23:49.59 | JefferyM | then we'll post a comment there on it when we read it |
| 23:50.00 | spldart | wonders if it's getting harder, easier or status quo to maintain a open source project like bzflag across windows and linux. 'Pardon the lack of capitals for some of those nouns' |
| 23:50.13 | alexbanceanu | oki |
| 23:50.48 | thresh | spldart: cant say for bzflag, but it's always a tough one to maintain multiplatform application. |
| 23:51.08 | spldart | So I've noticed. |
| 23:51.13 | JefferyM | spldart, in some ways yes, in some ways no |
| 23:51.15 | Epyon | Actually what is cURL used for? |
| 23:51.26 | spldart | So give and take... |
| 23:51.33 | JefferyM | Epyon, HTTP |
| 23:51.43 | JefferyM | spldart, it depends on the project |
| 23:51.51 | JefferyM | some libs are doing what they can to make it easier |
| 23:51.53 | spldart | has watched linux dev add something and a windows one fix and a windows dev add something and a linux one fix at various times. |
| 23:51.59 | JefferyM | some like curl, don't seem to give a crap |
| 23:52.06 | thresh | vlc is getting tougher and tougher for win32/osx |
| 23:52.08 | Epyon | Something boost::asio could do instead... yeah, please don't hit me with a hammer :D |
| 23:52.19 | JefferyM | since windows has the same functionality, few use it on windows |
| 23:52.48 | JefferyM | Epyon, no not sockets, HTTP |
| 23:52.51 | JefferyM | we have a networking system |
| 23:52.55 | JefferyM | this does HTTP |
| 23:53.32 | Epyon | there was a http layer over ASIO, but I can't remember if it was in the official distro or Boost Vault... |
| 23:53.38 | alexbanceanu | would it be that hard to change the curl code to windows calls? in stead of building curl for windows ? |
| 23:53.49 | Epyon | Anyway, I doubt that there is no workaround... |
| 23:53.55 | JefferyM | alexbanceanu, in the past no, since we've just got curl to build :) |
| 23:54.02 | JefferyM | Epyon, noone ever said there wasn't one |
| 23:54.09 | JefferyM | I know of at least 4 |
| 23:54.36 | JefferyM | I am mostly just miffed at the curl devs for basicly making changes that totaly assume there is only one build system |