| 00:00.09 | JefferyM | thinks others should know that mrapplecomputer1 is a COPPA violator, if you've stored data for him you know what to do. |
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| 00:01.51 | Bambino_ | heya Abominable_ |
| 00:03.36 | Abominable_ | Bambino_: Heya |
| 00:03.48 | mrapplecomputer1 | Abominable_: need to tak |
| 00:07.54 | mrapplecomputer1 | *sigh* worst day ever :( |
| 00:08.50 | Bambino_ | mhmm |
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| 00:48.51 | KTL | i got a generic type and the type is simplified with typedef, still i want to reach one of its template parameter types :) like my_generic_type::a_template_parameter_type_of_it , but that syntax doesnt seem to work :) |
| 00:51.09 | KTL | the reason why i get into this kind of trouble is because i try to make every class of my project as generic as possible, it becomes quite complicated that way |
| 00:51.59 | trepan | http://womble.decadentplace.org.uk/c++/template-faq.html#disambiguation |
| 00:52.04 | trepan | something like that? |
| 00:52.19 | KTL | reads |
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| 00:56.17 | KTL | it is the template parm i try to get, like Alloc in that example, i can add a typedef with a new name for it but that is a bit messy |
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| 01:35.41 | KTL | it compiles :) |
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| 02:29.11 | KTL | coding is so weird now, i write tons of code with barely anything to execute in it, it's just all structure, design patterns, templates, some attributes, files full of structure with all functionality delegated elsewhere, feels unreal |
| 02:29.48 | BinarySpike | oh yeah way worse than assembly *sarcasm* |
| 02:29.54 | BinarySpike | :P |
| 02:30.49 | KTL | oh with all this structure i think i got hell more power than you in assembly :) |
| 02:31.32 | BinarySpike | it's like different sized gears... might be a large gear, but it's got a lot of power. |
| 02:34.10 | JeffM | it's more like getting a box of gears vs. getting a well designed car ;) |
| 02:34.50 | KTL | hehe |
| 02:35.01 | BinarySpike | that too |
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| 04:18.32 | JeffM | wheee |
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| 06:12.11 | KingRobot | ping any dev |
| 06:12.28 | blast007 | KingRobot: pong |
| 06:12.46 | KingRobot | Hi blast007 |
| 06:13.45 | KingRobot | In working to remove unnecessary dependencies from the bzrobots code, as we expected, I'm finding a lot of shared code in the bzflag client... |
| 06:14.14 | blast007 | :) |
| 06:15.33 | KingRobot | Since the refactoring project didn't make it in, I'm wondering if an acceptable solution would be to bracket uneeded code with a #ifndef BZROBOTS, where BZROBOTS is defined in the bzrobots Makefile via -DBZROBOTS |
| 06:17.01 | KingRobot | That will prevent us from further duplicating code between the two codebases, and also provide "markers" for a future refactoring project. |
| 06:17.37 | KingRobot | For example, LocalPlayer.cxx (needed by bzrobots) has a lot of references to the sound system |
| 06:17.49 | KingRobot | (sound not needed by bzrobots) |
| 06:18.11 | KingRobot | Thoughts? |
| 06:19.53 | blast007 | sounds okay to me, but that's definately not my strong area of expertise |
| 06:21.12 | KingRobot | Well, it's not ideal by any stretch of the matter. |
| 06:21.26 | KingRobot | But since the refactoring project isn't happening, at least not via GSoC... |
| 06:21.43 | KingRobot | I've noticed a similar approach has been used for code shared with bzadmin |
| 06:21.58 | KingRobot | ... and comments in the same code called it "hacky" :) |
| 06:23.22 | blast007 | hehe |
| 06:23.55 | a_meteorite | does bzrobots work in its incarnation? |
| 06:23.59 | blast007 | it can definately make it a bit harder to follow the logic |
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| 06:24.20 | KingRobot | a_meteorite: It used to, but something is broken... It's pretty close to working. |
| 06:24.24 | a_meteorite | ah |
| 06:25.15 | KingRobot | blast007: The alternative is what's taking place now, where nearly the entire bzflag client codebase is linked into bzrobots |
| 06:25.23 | KingRobot | Speaking of hard-to-follow logic ;) |
| 06:25.40 | blast007 | KingRobot: right |
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| 08:17.40 | KingRobot | Any devs know what "DynamicWorldText" is? |
| 08:18.00 | KingRobot | ... and PlayerAvatar? |
| 08:18.13 | KingRobot | I didn't think we had avatars in bzflag... :-/ |
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| 08:45.08 | KingRobot | DTRemenak: is that you, or just your presence signing on? :) |
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| 10:45.01 | Manu | lol k-lined :) |
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| 12:26.22 | donny | k-lined again :P methinks the CGI:IRC days on .bz are numbered |
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| 13:04.35 | Thumper_ | they're probably already over ;) |
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| 17:30.12 | kierra_away | ~seen brlcad |
| 17:30.16 | ibot | brlcad <n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz> was last seen on IRC in channel #brlcad, 14h 48m 56s ago, saying: 'thx'. |
| 17:31.35 | blast007 | 05:33:40 -!- brlcad [n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz] has quit [K-lined] |
| 17:31.36 | blast007 | ;) |
| 17:32.05 | kierra_away | ty blast |
| 17:33.22 | MindstormsKid | K-lined? :O |
| 17:35.10 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 17:36.27 | Manu | kierra_away: brlcad has been k-lined |
| 17:36.57 | kierra_away | ty Manu |
| 17:37.07 | Manu | we are working to unban him ;) |
| 17:37.22 | kierra_away | what did the man do this time |
| 17:38.08 | Manu | not him, the CGI IRC |
| 17:38.17 | Manu | a bad guy used it to make troubles |
| 17:38.50 | blast007 | should just make the CGI IRC page redirect to X-Chat ;) |
| 17:39.42 | Manu | blast007: he only needs to follow the instructions he received the first time he was k-lined :) |
| 17:40.13 | blast007 | heh |
| 17:40.25 | Manu | thanks.. I'm protected ;) |
| 17:40.46 | kierra | men follow instructions/directions ;) <---note the wink! |
| 17:41.07 | blast007 | ~bzfrag kierra |
| 17:41.08 | ibot | ACTION fries kierra with a laser |
| 17:41.24 | Manu | heh |
| 17:41.42 | kierra | <---innocence personified |
| 17:41.54 | blast007 | :) |
| 17:42.05 | Manu | lol |
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| 17:45.51 | blast007 | apparently it's just not a good day for IRC |
| 17:46.31 | Manu | :) |
| 17:46.43 | blast007 | waits for a netsplit |
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| 18:41.56 | KingRobot | ping JefferyM |
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| 19:15.48 | KingRobot | Any devs / mentors on? |
| 19:16.20 | kierra | must be busy/afk |
| 19:18.05 | KingRobot | yes :-/ :) |
| 19:18.45 | kierra | patience :) |
| 19:19.08 | KingRobot | yes :) |
| 19:19.59 | pacman87 | ~ask |
| 19:20.00 | ibot | Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. |
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| 19:54.14 | JefferyM | Bulldozer, sup? |
| 19:54.28 | Bulldozer | Ah |
| 19:54.31 | Bulldozer | Several things |
| 19:55.08 | Bulldozer | geometry... (SceneNodes) are those all for rendering? (i.e. not use for any kind of state) |
| 19:55.19 | JefferyM | yes |
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| 19:55.29 | JefferyM | you use the obstacle manager for collisions |
| 19:55.55 | Bulldozer | okay |
| 19:56.03 | Bulldozer | It looked like it, but I wanted to be sure |
| 19:56.47 | Bulldozer | I'm digging through the bzrobots code, working to weed out un-needed dependencies |
| 19:57.01 | JefferyM | cool |
| 19:57.14 | JefferyM | the obstaclemanager should have a nice clean API |
| 19:57.22 | JefferyM | the server uses it too |
| 19:57.27 | Bulldozer | Right about now, it looks like it shares about half the (bzflag) client code |
| 19:57.44 | Bulldozer | I discussed this idea with blast007 last night... |
| 19:57.44 | JefferyM | fun |
| 19:57.59 | Bulldozer | no, not fun ;) |
| 19:58.21 | Bulldozer | I see only two solutions |
| 19:58.56 | Bulldozer | a] Do a refactoring project, something like a libclient |
| 19:59.31 | Bulldozer | b] Add a -DBZROBOTS to the robots makefile, and then put a host of #ifndefs all over the client code |
| 19:59.55 | JefferyM | why do they have to be #defs? |
| 20:00.10 | Bulldozer | link errors |
| 20:00.23 | JefferyM | so link more then you need |
| 20:00.27 | JefferyM | that's a minor issue |
| 20:00.39 | Bulldozer | But it doesn't get us any closer to where we want... |
| 20:00.51 | JefferyM | no, but it also dosnt' get us any further away |
| 20:00.58 | JefferyM | #defs are further |
| 20:01.09 | JefferyM | so I'd rather stay in one place, the move back |
| 20:01.18 | Bulldozer | They would serve as markers for where the refactoring needs to take place... |
| 20:01.45 | JefferyM | I don't think it buys us anything |
| 20:02.02 | JefferyM | how hard would it be to put the shared code into a static lib? |
| 20:02.13 | JefferyM | then the refactor project could just work on making that lib have a clean API |
| 20:02.24 | JefferyM | then it's minimal work for you |
| 20:02.29 | Bulldozer | Not too hard from the looks of things. |
| 20:02.32 | JefferyM | I do not want you doing a refactor proejct |
| 20:02.42 | JefferyM | but I also don't want #defs everywhere |
| 20:02.45 | Bulldozer | Right |
| 20:02.53 | JefferyM | if you have to link in a few extra things, whopty do |
| 20:03.02 | JefferyM | tht's all buried in the makefile |
| 20:03.05 | JefferyM | not the code |
| 20:03.15 | Bulldozer | Some classes would need to be extended in the main client codebase |
| 20:03.29 | JefferyM | in what way? |
| 20:03.34 | Bulldozer | The majority of the problem is calls to either graphics or sound code where they don't belong. |
| 20:03.55 | JefferyM | sure, so leave em there untill they get moved, and link to GL for now |
| 20:05.27 | JefferyM | if you can get the shared code into a lib, that'll be good start |
| 20:05.34 | JefferyM | otehrs can start to refactor it |
| 20:05.44 | Bulldozer | Okay |
| 20:05.48 | JefferyM | then as it gets fixed, you can remove the link dependencies |
| 20:11.01 | Bulldozer | I had actually gotten the ifndef idea from ServerLink.cxx:48 |
| 20:11.15 | Bulldozer | Seems there was a similar approach at some point for bzadmin |
| 20:11.23 | Bulldozer | Not sure if that is still used or now |
| 20:11.32 | Bulldozer | s/now/not/ |
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| 20:14.47 | Bulldozer | What was/is the purpose of the headless client? |
| 20:14.52 | JefferyM | yeah and that is horrible |
| 20:14.58 | JefferyM | bzrobots initaly |
| 20:15.32 | Bulldozer | Anything else? |
| 20:15.43 | JefferyM | nope |
| 20:15.51 | JefferyM | there is no point to a headless real client |
| 20:16.11 | JefferyM | the things that you would want to do with client code that are not playing, are robots, and admin |
| 20:16.14 | JefferyM | and we have apps for those |
| 20:16.42 | Bulldozer | er, we do? |
| 20:16.54 | JefferyM | bzrobots and bzadmin |
| 20:16.59 | JefferyM | they are seperate applications |
| 20:17.08 | Bulldozer | Ahhhh |
| 20:17.23 | Bulldozer | bzrobots is not a separate application right now. |
| 20:17.29 | JefferyM | headless client was just the inital way to share code between them |
| 20:17.31 | JefferyM | yes it is |
| 20:17.41 | JefferyM | it builds it's own executable |
| 20:17.50 | Bulldozer | Well, in that sense |
| 20:18.04 | Bulldozer | In every other sense it uses all the code from bzflag client |
| 20:18.04 | JefferyM | what other sense is there? |
| 20:18.12 | JefferyM | that's just shared code |
| 20:18.17 | JefferyM | implementation problems |
| 20:18.34 | JefferyM | it should share code |
| 20:18.38 | JefferyM | it's just sharing it badly |
| 20:18.39 | Bulldozer | Sure |
| 20:19.22 | Bulldozer | Right |
| 20:19.33 | Bulldozer | It shouldn't be sharing gfx or sound code at all |
| 20:19.41 | JefferyM | sure, in a perfect world |
| 20:19.52 | JefferyM | that's what we want libgame for |
| 20:20.31 | Bulldozer | So maybe this stuff should be in libgame rather than a new lib? |
| 20:20.42 | JefferyM | eventualy sure |
| 20:20.46 | JefferyM | but I don't want you to make lib game |
| 20:20.56 | JefferyM | making it a new lib is just very very easy and fast |
| 20:21.06 | JefferyM | that new lib will eventualy go away |
| 20:22.51 | Bulldozer | Sure. I'm just trying to have a good handle on where this is headed. |
| 20:22.52 | JefferyM | the only reason to split it is just to show others what files you need refactored first |
| 20:23.11 | JefferyM | it is headed tward a full libGame |
| 20:23.51 | Bulldozer | Sure |
| 20:24.06 | JefferyM | but we won't get there within the scope of your project |
| 20:24.31 | Bulldozer | So, you have something like Players.cxx, which has Player::doDeadReckoning() |
| 20:24.52 | Bulldozer | Halfway through doDeadReconing, there's all the sudden a EFFECTS.addLandEffect(getColor(),predictedPos,state.azimuth); |
| 20:24.59 | Bulldozer | How would that be refactored? |
| 20:25.04 | JefferyM | callbacks |
| 20:25.10 | JefferyM | OnLand |
| 20:25.28 | JefferyM | robots would install it's own handlers for that event, that just notify "hey I landed" |
| 20:25.35 | JefferyM | client would install the effects code |
| 20:25.57 | Bulldozer | I see |
| 20:26.04 | JefferyM | then the lib game dosn't really have anything to do with what happens on the event, it just generates the events. |
| 20:26.28 | Bulldozer | So something like ShockWaveStrategy would really need to be re-done... |
| 20:26.37 | JefferyM | lots of things would have to be redone |
| 20:26.40 | JefferyM | that's why it's a big project |
| 20:27.00 | Bulldozer | Sure, I'm seeing that now. |
| 20:27.08 | JefferyM | server has the same issues |
| 20:27.32 | JefferyM | the shockwave sceennode needs to be redone to get all it's affects from a virtual shockwave, etc.. |
| 20:28.06 | Bulldozer | Alright, no major refactoring :) |
| 20:28.13 | Bulldozer | Here's what I'll do then |
| 20:28.22 | JefferyM | I'd actualy like to see the shots be redone as a ShotState object, that has the strat in it |
| 20:28.30 | JefferyM | but everyone just uses the current state |
| 20:29.07 | Bulldozer | I'll split off all the files from the client that need major re-factoring |
| 20:29.15 | Bulldozer | (I have a nice list over here based on necessary and unnecessary dependencies from bzrobots) |
| 20:29.32 | JefferyM | k |
| 20:29.33 | Bulldozer | That'll be called "libclient" |
| 20:29.40 | JefferyM | sure whatever |
| 20:29.46 | JefferyM | libFixMe :) |
| 20:29.54 | Bulldozer | okay, sure, lol |
| 20:30.00 | JefferyM | libClient is fine |
| 20:30.21 | JefferyM | since that may be a nice place to tie game and state together |
| 20:30.28 | JefferyM | or game and net |
| 20:30.30 | Bulldozer | libclient will also link into all the *junk* that bzrobots shouldn't need; all the renderer code, etc. (since it has to have it do link) |
| 20:30.39 | JefferyM | since at a minium all clients need game and net |
| 20:30.51 | Bulldozer | and then bzrobots will just link into libClient |
| 20:30.59 | JefferyM | that will only work for linux, but sure |
| 20:31.02 | JefferyM | whatever works |
| 20:31.13 | Bulldozer | ... and OS X, no? |
| 20:31.18 | JefferyM | gcc |
| 20:31.22 | JefferyM | so whatever |
| 20:31.35 | JefferyM | not that robots works for windows anyway |
| 20:32.06 | Bulldozer | Well, I don't want to break the real client, and part of the project is to get C++ robots working on windows |
| 20:32.07 | Bulldozer | why not windows? |
| 20:32.22 | JefferyM | the DLL exports are a problem |
| 20:32.40 | JefferyM | you can't export STL with out some magic |
| 20:32.53 | JefferyM | so really windows can't work untill libClient is made clean |
| 20:33.08 | Bulldozer | Hm |
| 20:33.15 | JefferyM | you have enough work just getting robots working on gcc for a full 3 months |
| 20:33.57 | JefferyM | the core problem is that on windows when you do a dll, you have very specific exports |
| 20:34.03 | JefferyM | wher gcc just exports it all |
| 20:34.12 | JefferyM | and there are problem exporting templates |
| 20:34.29 | JefferyM | because template code is implemented in the module that includes the header |
| 20:34.46 | Bulldozer | Okay. I've only done this to libs with basic code in them. |
| 20:34.57 | JefferyM | so both bzrobots and a plugin have implmenteations of the template code |
| 20:35.06 | JefferyM | if they use different versions of the runtimes, bad things can happen |
| 20:35.18 | JefferyM | that's why the MS STL containers are not defined as exportable |
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| 21:42.10 | *** join/#bzflag brlcad (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:42.31 | brlcad | about time |
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| 21:46.53 | Manu | brlcad: welcome :) |
| 21:48.25 | brlcad | Manu: thanks :) |
| 21:48.30 | brlcad | and thanks :) |
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