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| 01:54.13 | Digital_Pioneer | BZFlag with audio through OSS. How? :) |
| 01:54.23 | JeffM | dude, we keep telling you, you never listen |
| 01:54.46 | JeffM | you ready to actualy listen for once? |
| 01:54.59 | Digital_Pioneer | JeffM: You ready to actually tell me a way that works for once? |
| 01:55.09 | JeffM | we have been trying to tell you |
| 01:55.20 | JeffM | what linux distrobution are you on? |
| 01:55.26 | Digital_Pioneer | Arch |
| 01:55.37 | JeffM | do you know what sound library your SDL was linked with? |
| 01:55.47 | JeffM | because bzflag does not pick the sound libary itself |
| 01:55.49 | JeffM | SDL does |
| 01:55.57 | JeffM | so bzflag will use whatever your SDL uses |
| 01:56.11 | Digital_Pioneer | Well, `mplayer -ao sdl` works fine. |
| 01:56.26 | JeffM | on debian they have a couple different SDL packages that tell you what it's used with |
| 01:56.31 | Digital_Pioneer | Nexuiz SDL works fine. |
| 01:56.41 | JeffM | bzflag should use the same thing then |
| 01:56.47 | JeffM | we have no OSS code in our stuff |
| 01:57.02 | JeffM | you can pass a driver environment variable to SDL in bzflag |
| 01:57.14 | JeffM | usualy you don't need to if your SDL works |
| 01:57.38 | Digital_Pioneer | Well, my SDL works fine, it's BZF that doesn't. :\ |
| 01:58.03 | JeffM | you can try setting the driver in bzflag to dma |
| 01:58.11 | JeffM | that should tell SDL to use OSS |
| 01:58.13 | Digital_Pioneer | Now if there's something goofy I have to do with audio settings, that's fine, but right now I've got Driver: dsp and Device: default |
| 01:58.19 | JeffM | tho the default is DSP using OSS |
| 01:58.23 | JeffM | from the SDL docs |
| 01:58.38 | JeffM | yeah that's SDLs default |
| 01:58.52 | JeffM | looks like it'll take dma, esd, and artsc as well |
| 01:59.35 | JeffM | did you build your own bzflag? or did it come as a package? |
| 01:59.40 | Digital_Pioneer | Package |
| 01:59.45 | Digital_Pioneer | But I can build it myself. |
| 01:59.48 | JeffM | does it say SDL when it starts up? |
| 01:59.56 | JeffM | it's IS possible it may not be built with SDL support |
| 02:00.12 | JeffM | the debian packages are, but I don't know about arch |
| 02:00.14 | Digital_Pioneer | Package deps sdl |
| 02:00.24 | JeffM | that dosn't mean anything |
| 02:00.34 | Digital_Pioneer | I don't see anything about sdl in the startup log |
| 02:00.35 | JeffM | when bzflag starts does it say SDL in the version section? |
| 02:00.45 | Digital_Pioneer | Oh, wait, yeah, there it is. |
| 02:00.51 | Digital_Pioneer | Had to scroll up |
| 02:00.55 | JeffM | k |
| 02:01.14 | JeffM | then yeah all you can really do is try the various driver strings |
| 02:01.24 | JeffM | we don't have any controll over SDL other then that |
| 02:01.38 | Digital_Pioneer | BZFlag version: 2.0.12.20080814-MAINT-linux-gnu-SDL (0026) |
| 02:01.40 | blast007 | and all our menu stuff does is set the environment variables |
| 02:01.50 | JeffM | yeah so it's not much |
| 02:02.07 | Digital_Pioneer | Is there a way to make it leave them well enough alone? :P |
| 02:02.15 | JeffM | yeah leave them blank |
| 02:02.20 | JeffM | taht's how we default them |
| 02:02.50 | Digital_Pioneer | Oh for crying out loud. |
| 02:02.54 | Digital_Pioneer | It worked. |
| 02:03.03 | Digital_Pioneer | :\ |
| 02:03.05 | JeffM | heh, so all you had to do was NOT monkey with it ;) |
| 02:03.12 | blast007 | it worked with them blank? |
| 02:03.27 | Digital_Pioneer | Well, it automatically set itself to alsa, back when I used ALSA. |
| 02:03.35 | Digital_Pioneer | I assumed it _had_ to say something. |
| 02:03.37 | blast007 | heh |
| 02:03.43 | JeffM | it should not automaticly do anything |
| 02:03.52 | JeffM | you would have typed alsa in there once |
| 02:04.03 | Digital_Pioneer | Eeeh, maybe I did... |
| 02:04.08 | Digital_Pioneer | That was a long time ago. :P |
| 02:04.17 | JeffM | in general the defaults work for most systems |
| 02:04.39 | Digital_Pioneer | My guess is it wasn't working, I don't typically edit settings that work just like they're supposed to. |
| 02:04.41 | Digital_Pioneer | Hehehe |
| 02:04.48 | JeffM | yeah alsa is odd |
| 02:05.37 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, but it's also the de facto standard... |
| 02:05.46 | JeffM | except when it isn't ;) |
| 02:05.48 | Digital_Pioneer | isn't looking back. |
| 02:06.13 | Digital_Pioneer | Only reason I might require ALSA over OSS is bluetooth audio. |
| 02:06.35 | Digital_Pioneer | And to do that, I use PulseAudio on top of ALSA, which is great when it works, horrifying when it doesn't. |
| 02:06.50 | blast007 | sound on linux is always fun |
| 02:06.50 | Digital_Pioneer | On my laptop, it works. |
| 02:06.55 | Digital_Pioneer | On my desktop, it doesn't. :P |
| 02:07.06 | JeffM | the OS backend should handle the output device, app should have a single API, call it, and then let the user setup whatever devices they want |
| 02:07.14 | JeffM | then apps just work |
| 02:07.24 | Digital_Pioneer | I agree. |
| 02:08.03 | JeffM | throw the audio API down to the X or kenel level :) |
| 02:08.10 | JeffM | then everyone will have to use it |
| 02:08.17 | Digital_Pioneer | Instead we've got approximately 26 thousand different audio systems, with the best ones having emulation layers for all the rest of them. |
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| 02:08.44 | JeffM | there is a raeson why the other OSs have just one |
| 02:09.31 | blast007 | doesn't even Windows have more than one? |
| 02:09.35 | JeffM | nope |
| 02:09.54 | JeffM | waveout is now emulated on top of DirectSound |
| 02:10.28 | blast007 | XAudio? |
| 02:10.51 | blast007 | XAudio 2* |
| 02:10.51 | JeffM | that's a managed inteface on top of the raw level |
| 02:10.51 | JeffM | just like openAL |
| 02:11.09 | JeffM | because the base OS has sound support you can always throw another API on top of it and it'll work |
| 02:11.19 | Digital_Pioneer | Other OSes are closed source -- there's no option but to have only one. |
| 02:11.32 | JeffM | Digital_Pioneer: not true, part of it is because it just works |
| 02:11.37 | JeffM | use video as the example |
| 02:11.47 | JeffM | openGL is open, and most people stick to that because it works |
| 02:12.05 | JeffM | drivers can implement it, apps can use it, everyone is happy |
| 02:12.38 | Digital_Pioneer | Yeah, fortunately. :P |
| 02:12.54 | JeffM | audio should be the same way, at least on a single OS |
| 02:13.15 | JeffM | GL has gone across OSs, that proves it's a good concept for low level output type stuff |
| 02:13.23 | Digital_Pioneer | But I don't think just anyone can go add a completely separate audio system to a windows OS and remove the other one. |
| 02:13.35 | JeffM | yeah that's the good thing |
| 02:13.39 | JeffM | you can't remove the old one |
| 02:13.52 | JeffM | if you wanted to write your own driver that got the hardware and implemnted your own API you could |
| 02:14.04 | JeffM | but you'd be stupid to not let it have a fallback to native sound |
| 02:14.12 | blast007 | well ... couldn't someone write a custom driver for an audio device that didn't tie to DirectSound? |
| 02:14.12 | JeffM | then no mater what, apps work |
| 02:14.14 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:14.21 | JeffM | you can go arround it if you want |
| 02:14.24 | JeffM | openAL can do that |
| 02:14.40 | JeffM | if you have an OpenAL driver for your card you get bare mettal and lots of cool features |
| 02:14.52 | blast007 | which is why OpenAL can still do hardware accelerated 3D audio on Vista :P |
| 02:14.54 | JeffM | but if you don't, openAL just sends it to native sound |
| 02:14.57 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:14.59 | blast007 | (on certain sound cards) |
| 02:15.03 | JeffM | heh |
| 02:15.13 | blast007 | *cough*creative*cough* |
| 02:15.16 | JeffM | if you wite an OpenAL app, no mater what it'll work on a windows machine |
| 02:15.55 | JeffM | I think they can use ESD , OSS, and ALSA on linux too |
| 02:16.01 | JeffM | so you can get a similar effect |
| 02:16.22 | Digital_Pioneer | slips away to play BZF since he can hear it now. :) |
| 02:16.49 | JeffM | ahh looks like OSS and ALSA only |
| 02:16.51 | JeffM | no esd |
| 02:16.51 | blast007 | yeah, and with OpenAL, you just have to bow down to your new (Un)Creative leaders |
| 02:17.10 | JeffM | no, just use there api, cus it's not too bad :) |
| 02:17.24 | blast007 | meh, I just dislike creative :P |
| 02:17.29 | blast007 | A3D was better |
| 02:17.45 | blast007 | (than eax) |
| 02:17.52 | JeffM | none of us have to deal with them directly so it dosn't mattter in the long run |
| 02:17.57 | blast007 | yeah |
| 02:18.13 | JeffM | openAL wasn't started by Creative |
| 02:18.21 | JeffM | they took it over after it's mama died |
| 02:18.25 | JeffM | cus it's a good idea |
| 02:18.30 | JeffM | and needs to exist |
| 02:19.09 | JeffM | had they left it up to the FOSSers you'd have another OSS or ALSA that wasn't pushed everywhere |
| 02:21.16 | blast007 | true :P |
| 02:21.19 | JeffM | wonder if there is a managed interface to openAL |
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| 02:25.07 | JeffM | hah, openTK has em and I didn't even know |
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| 02:36.33 | MacGyverXI | ppl. hello. |
| 02:37.03 | JeffM | hello |
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| 02:38.07 | MacGyverXI | Has anyone had any issues with someone by the moniker "crunch_time"? |
| 02:39.38 | JeffM | what kind of issues? |
| 02:40.59 | MacGyverXI | Well, I was at Mofo, going 1 on 1 with him... I hit him with a GM, he didn't die, I said "wtf", then he left. |
| 02:41.40 | Landon__ | Well, this probably isn't the place to discuss it try ##planetmofo they may have some info |
| 02:42.05 | MacGyverXI | right on. did'nt know they had a channel. I'll check with them. |
| 02:42.05 | JeffM | yeah talk about it with the server owner/s |
| 02:42.14 | MacGyverXI | Will do. Thanks guys. |
| 02:43.06 | bushido_banjo | fwiw: crunch time is up in AK... and my knowledge of him as a player is that he plays fairly... lag/jit issue maybe? |
| 02:43.58 | JeffM | indeed, lag can be very deceptive |
| 02:46.09 | MacGyverXI | Yeah - I've always known of him to play fair too... that's why I thought it was wierd |
| 02:46.15 | Landon__ | Out of curiosity will GM be improved in 3.0? The distance it travels seems varied by lag |
| 02:46.31 | Landon__ | Maybe a sudden spike>? |
| 02:46.35 | MacGyverXI | perhaps. |
| 02:46.35 | JeffM | sure anythign can be improved |
| 02:46.46 | JeffM | WILL it be improved is another question |
| 02:46.46 | me1 | if he left right after, he may have left the server/gone nr, and left a ghost on the server |
| 02:46.54 | temporalD | there is a GM lock indicator |
| 02:47.12 | JeffM | the best way to improve GM and all shots is to have the server do the tracking and guiding |
| 02:47.17 | Landon__ | me1: good call, may explain the "wtf" :| |
| 02:47.19 | JeffM | then you'd get a more consistent experience. |
| 02:48.18 | Landon__ | Yeah, I've heard its handled by the person being shot. Obviously that will cause them to think that the shooter was cheating when, in fact, its their own fault |
| 02:48.23 | MacGyverXI | interesting concept. Sounds like fun. =) |
| 02:48.49 | JeffM | no it's done by the shooter |
| 02:48.55 | JeffM | death is done by the person being shot |
| 02:49.13 | Landon__ | Thats what I meant, wording was off :S |
| 02:49.23 | MacGyverXI | Have a good evening, all. Cheers. |
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| 02:49.56 | JeffM | in the end all of it should be done by the server |
| 02:50.02 | JeffM | but that's a harder task to implement |
| 02:50.03 | Landon__ | So, its the person who gets shot that handles whether he dies or not |
| 02:50.18 | Landon__ | Yeah, would that put additional strain on the server? |
| 02:51.04 | JeffM | pfff no |
| 02:51.11 | JeffM | bzfs uses squat for CPU now |
| 02:51.30 | JeffM | and the client does how many hundreds of frames a second? |
| 02:51.37 | JeffM | including the draw time |
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| 02:51.58 | JeffM | it would not be noticable on any real server |
| 02:52.50 | Landon__ | Just a concept. If in some way you amde the server handle more events, that would take away some of the users lag? |
| 02:53.16 | Landon__ | Shots shooting etc. I know its harder than that :D |
| 02:53.37 | JeffM | no |
| 02:53.39 | JeffM | lag is lag |
| 02:53.46 | JeffM | what it would do is make lag matter les |
| 02:53.58 | JeffM | since when there is lag, you'd have a solid server state to fall back on |
| 02:54.08 | JeffM | so it would be a more consistent experience for everyone |
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| 02:54.24 | Landon__ | and how difficult would it be to implement something like this? Is the payoff worth the work? |
| 02:54.34 | JeffM | yes the payoff is totaly worth the work |
| 02:54.40 | JeffM | it would make bzflag a real internet game |
| 02:54.44 | JeffM | instead of the LAN game it is now |
| 02:54.47 | JeffM | but it's a lot of work |
| 02:55.01 | JeffM | we've tried it a couple times |
| 02:55.08 | JeffM | the payoffs are huge if it's done right |
| 02:55.16 | JeffM | you'd get rid of a lot of cheats too |
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| 02:55.43 | Landon__ | Thats great :) I'm taking an intermediate C++ classes at my local college, would be awesome to have a bzflag plugin or something similar as a project |
| 02:57.24 | JeffM | some schools use bzflag to teach |
| 02:57.28 | JeffM | mostly AI courses |
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| 03:43.46 | Quol_ | brb |
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| 13:41.21 | Deeepa|school | Are no server included in the windows isntaller? |
| 13:41.22 | Deeepa|school | maps* |
| 13:43.05 | brad | might be hix.bzw somewhere |
| 13:43.10 | brad | but doubt there's anything else |
| 13:44.15 | brad | loads of maps on bzbb or at http://www.garrettsites.net/bzmaps/ |
| 13:46.06 | WarPig | And there is always /saveworld |
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| 15:01.08 | Gabe_G23 | That Digital_Pioner doesn't stay connected for a long time ;) |
| 15:02.46 | WarPig | When you're old enough to be the pioneer of digital, your stamina has to suffer. |
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| 15:15.59 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 0380.244.90.85 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6877 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc: |
| 15:16.51 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 0380.244.90.85 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6878 10/w/Category:LouMan_Maps: Removing all content from page |
| 15:17.20 | Thumper_ | blast007: ping |
| 15:17.27 | blast007 | sigh |
| 15:22.54 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/block: blocked [[User:80.244.90.85]] with an expiry time of infinite (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Removing content from pages |
| 15:23.14 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6879 10/w/Category:LouMan_Maps: Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/80.244.90.85|80.244.90.85]] ([[User talk:80.244.90.85|Talk]]); changed back to last version by [[User:Mets|Mets]] |
| 15:23.26 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6880 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc: Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/80.244.90.85|80.244.90.85]] ([[User talk:80.244.90.85|Talk]]); changed back to last version by [[User:Mets|Mets]] |
| 15:23.47 | Deeepa|school | Isn't that a tad bit harsh? |
| 15:24.55 | brad | if that wasn't a proxy and they weren't trying to be idiots, maybe.. |
| 15:25.23 | Deeepa|school | So you think that it's awesome to have a category for one article for maps made by one user? |
| 15:25.42 | blast007 | shrugs |
| 15:25.52 | brad | he deserves it, to be fair |
| 15:25.57 | Deeepa|school | That'd be me, hi |
| 15:26.12 | brad | and it's a wiki, i'm sure you can have your own category too if you liked |
| 15:26.28 | Deeepa|school | Really? I just got permanently banned |
| 15:26.46 | TheRedBaron | you wiped an entire article |
| 15:27.00 | Deeepa|school | No I didn't, I removed a category that had one article |
| 15:27.03 | blast007 | Deeepa|school: well, guess I assumed it was the same thing someone did yesterday |
| 15:27.06 | blast007 | one sec |
| 15:27.16 | Deeepa|school | http://my.bzflag.org/w/Category:LouMan_Maps |
| 15:27.21 | blast007 | (someone wiped our main page yesterday with that same "Removing all content from page" |
| 15:27.24 | blast007 | ) |
| 15:27.31 | Deeepa|school | That page has more content than the stub that's inside it |
| 15:27.49 | Deeepa|school | A map by LouMan featuring two unfinished sky scrapers that the players compete on. |
| 15:28.00 | Deeepa|school | Is that enough content to have a whole category for? |
| 15:28.28 | TheRedBaron | Deeepa|school: add to it, if you are familiar with louman, and his maps, and his influence on bz. |
| 15:28.34 | TheRedBaron | don't just wipe it. |
| 15:28.41 | Deeepa|school | I have no idea who LouMan is, I have no idea about anything about his maps |
| 15:28.44 | Deeepa|school | and the wiki only listed one |
| 15:28.49 | TheRedBaron | all the more reason not to wipe it |
| 15:28.52 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/block: unblocked User:80.244.90.85 |
| 15:29.00 | Thumper_ | sorry - I assumed it was the same thing too |
| 15:29.00 | brad | lol |
| 15:29.02 | Deeepa|school | it looks like the typical "Oh I am so great, see my whole category for my own pages" |
| 15:29.13 | TheRedBaron | flag it then. It is a wiki afterall |
| 15:29.27 | Deeepa|school | I don't know how to flag it, the general mindset of wiki users freak me out |
| 15:29.28 | brad | might be best to use the :Talk pages to discuss it if you don't know about it |
| 15:29.47 | brad | or just ask on here |
| 15:30.18 | blast007 | might be nice to register an account there too so I might see a familiar name instead of an IP that resolves back to a really odd host ... |
| 15:30.21 | blast007 | ~dns 80.244.90.85 |
| 15:30.31 | blast007 | :P |
| 15:30.32 | brad | heh |
| 15:30.40 | temporalD | troll |
| 15:30.43 | Deeepa|school | odd? |
| 15:30.49 | TheRedBaron | lol. |
| 15:30.51 | blast007 | yes, odd. |
| 15:30.54 | Deeepa|school | It's. AWESOME! |
| 15:31.03 | blast007 | maybe |
| 15:31.13 | blast007 | but it made me think it was some bot even more |
| 15:31.29 | Deeepa|school | Bots with proper rDNS is something I find rare |
| 15:31.58 | blast007 | I was waiting for pr0n links to get posted :P |
| 15:32.35 | blast007 | anyway - better way to tweak the one map page would be to replace the category with the generic maps category |
| 15:32.36 | Deeepa|school | I can post those when I get home ;D |
| 15:32.46 | Deeepa|school | Oh it's already in that category |
| 15:32.50 | blast007 | k |
| 15:33.37 | blast007 | however, I could see a reason to have a category for "Louman Maps" ;) |
| 15:33.41 | blast007 | as well as a few others |
| 15:33.58 | Deeepa|school | I fail to see how it could even be close to justified in it's current state |
| 15:34.02 | Deeepa|school | one article, one line |
| 15:34.10 | Deeepa|school | anyways |
| 15:34.14 | blast007 | doesn't mean it can't be expanded |
| 15:34.17 | Deeepa|school | brb gotta run home |
| 15:34.19 | blast007 | he has a lot of maps |
| 15:34.25 | Deeepa|school | But it's not being expanded, last edit was 30th June 2009 |
| 15:34.36 | TheRedBaron | have you seent he size of our community? ;) |
| 15:34.52 | Deeepa|school | I count enough users to expand it |
| 15:34.53 | blast007 | Deeepa|school: so? |
| 15:34.56 | Deeepa|school | <PROTECTED> |
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| 16:01.16 | brlcad | hm, does it say all content is removed when a page is deleted, or are they really just removing all content? |
| 16:02.53 | brlcad | aha, can't delete a page as an anonymous user |
| 16:03.00 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Learner 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/delete: deleted "[[Category:LouMan Maps]]": content was: '[[Category:Maps]]' |
| 16:04.57 | TheRedBaron | louis Vuitton in bz? |
| 16:05.05 | TheRedBaron | http://my.bzflag.org/w/About_Louis_Vuitton_Outlet |
| 16:05.07 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Learner 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/delete: deleted "[[High Rise Havoc]]": page is indeed too empty to even be a stub, deleting |
| 16:05.30 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: you mean you don't have your Louis Vuitton BZFlag handbag yet? |
| 16:05.57 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03Learner 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/delete: |
| 16:05.57 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: deleted "[[About Louis Vuitton Outlet]]": content before blanking was: |
| 16:05.57 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 'Louisvuitton2.com is a fabulous blog which is especially built for collecting |
| 16:05.58 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: and offering the latest and most comprehensive resources of Louis Vuitto...' |
| 16:06.00 | *** join/#bzflag Dontkillme (~chatzilla@frnk-590df02f.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 16:06.56 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: I wanted one for my birthday :( |
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| 17:22.47 | JefferyM | blast007, looks like I made the "don't report bots" change to branch back in 2007 |
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| 17:23.21 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (~fatass@bzflag/player/ThinkDifferent) |
| 17:23.42 | JefferyM | so people that build from source, or those using debian based repos should have it |
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| 20:36.15 | brlcad | haha, awesome phil (loving the reminder bumps) |
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| 21:09.57 | JefferyM | brlcad, what rack is the new server in? |
| 21:12.09 | temp_dist | #3 |
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| 21:39.14 | brlcad | does not know |
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| 21:46.17 | JefferyM | oh, we got moved to a new room |
| 21:46.27 | JefferyM | DC1:Room:05.001.TPA:29 |
| 21:46.44 | JefferyM | old one was room 4 |
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| 22:14.18 | brlcad | we moved from Row 6 Rack 11 Port 26 to Row 3 Rack 11 Port 4 for .bz |
| 22:14.44 | JefferyM | move up in the world then :) |
| 22:15.23 | brlcad | assuming they number from the top ;) |
| 22:15.33 | JefferyM | be odd to not |
| 22:16.01 | JefferyM | did you see that article on HipHop? |
| 22:16.40 | TheRedBaron | tis fascinating to say the least |
| 22:17.22 | JefferyM | if it worked with apache it'd be interesting to see what it could do with the php part of bzbb that the list server uses for auth, turn that into a php extension |
| 22:17.39 | JefferyM | then the list server php would have to load a lot less |
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| 23:15.13 | brlcad | yep, saw it |
| 23:15.15 | brlcad | interesting |
| 23:21.43 | blast007 | JefferyM: okay - guess he just needs to update his server |
| 23:22.07 | blast007 | he might have been hosting on Windows ;) |
| 23:22.08 | JefferyM | maybe he's trying to host on windows |
| 23:22.10 | JefferyM | heh |
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