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| 01:05.13 | mrapplecomputer1 | anyone know who is "in charge" or norang? |
| 01:05.16 | mrapplecomputer1 | of* |
| 01:06.34 | BulletCatcher | I think different people run the 3 norang servers. |
| 01:07.23 | SpazzyMcGee | mrapplecomputer1: Thumper is your best bet |
| 01:07.42 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok thats what I thought but I wasnt sure |
| 01:12.23 | blast007 | mrapplecomputer1: there's a ##norang too |
| 01:12.31 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM1 (~JeffM@adsl-75-50-178-99.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) |
| 01:12.48 | mrapplecomputer1 | oh really? didnt see that on the channel list... |
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| 02:06.40 | *** join/#bzflag dexter- (~Adium@bzflag/player/Dexter) |
| 02:06.43 | dexter- | hey |
| 02:06.50 | dexter- | could anyone here host a hix 2.99 map? |
| 02:06.50 | JeffM1 | hello |
| 02:07.21 | *** join/#bzflag dexter-1 (~Adium@p57946C6C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:07.24 | dexter-1 | oi |
| 02:07.26 | blast007 | dexter-1: I might have one configured |
| 02:07.28 | blast007 | let me check |
| 02:08.49 | blast007 | yup, I do - just waiting for my 2.99.x to rebuild |
| 02:10.29 | dexter-1 | o awesome |
| 02:10.32 | dexter-1 | um |
| 02:10.36 | dexter-1 | what is the "Paste" key for? |
| 02:10.43 | dexter-1 | you can paste stuff in bz? |
| 02:11.25 | dexter-1 | blast007: out of curiosity.. could you set the tank hit radius to a max? |
| 02:11.44 | JeffM1 | there should not be a "max" |
| 02:11.52 | JeffM1 | it's an offset from the bbox now |
| 02:12.05 | dexter-1 | well the closest thing that would resemble the hit box now? |
| 02:12.15 | JeffM1 | there isn't a setting for that |
| 02:12.17 | trepan | yes, you can paste from the clipboard (only for Win & Lin) |
| 02:12.35 | JeffM1 | one is a sorta cylinder the other is a box |
| 02:13.31 | dexter-1 | ah trepan |
| 02:13.37 | dexter-1 | ya.. it didn't work for me (os x) |
| 02:17.00 | trepan | dexter-1: i don't remember if anyone ever tested on Windows, could only be a Linux thing right now ;) |
| 02:18.06 | dexter-1 | um, are Winny's textures still available somewhere? |
| 02:20.21 | blast007 | dexter-1: not as far as I know |
| 02:31.11 | dexter-1 | blast007: is it done? |
| 02:34.43 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r20752 10/trunk/bzflag/MSVC/build/bzflag.vcproj: Wp64 has been deprecated |
| 02:35.03 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r20753 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ (ControlPanel.cxx HubLua.cxx): ints are not floats |
| 02:36.13 | JeffM1 | yeah paste works |
| 02:37.00 | dexter-1 | cool |
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| 02:40.49 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r20754 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx game/global.cxx): remove -synctime and -synclocation and make those states the default. Servers can disable them with the variable. |
| 02:42.23 | trepan | JeffM1: "messageRect.xsize - 2.0f * margin" and like changes seem sort of odd, messageRect.xsize and margin are both ints |
| 02:42.48 | JeffM1 | it becomes a float when it gets multiplied by the 2.0f |
| 02:42.57 | JeffM1 | cheap way of not having to do (float() |
| 02:43.07 | trepan | figured, ew ;) |
| 02:43.15 | JeffM1 | feel free to change |
| 02:43.53 | trepan | not really a problem until someone comes along and changes it to 2.5f |
| 02:43.59 | trepan | and the text gets fuzzy again |
| 02:44.00 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6914 10/w/BZFS_Command_Line_Options: Note that -synctime and -synclocation were removed from 3.0 |
| 02:44.34 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi_ (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 02:46.35 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r20755 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ControlPanel.cxx: do the casts properly |
| 02:47.11 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM1: dang |
| 02:47.12 | JeffM1 | -a was removed from 3.0 as well right? it's all variables |
| 02:47.51 | JeffM1 | Gabe_G23: ? |
| 02:48.16 | trepan | JeffM1: yup, -a is gone |
| 02:48.43 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6915 10/w/BZFS_Command_Line_Options: -a was replaced with variables in V3 |
| 02:49.05 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM1: lots :p |
| 02:49.11 | JeffM1 | huh? |
| 02:49.51 | dexter-1 | what is the hub connection? |
| 02:49.54 | dexter-1 | and what is a hub message |
| 02:50.00 | JeffM1 | global chat |
| 02:50.09 | dexter-1 | which is? |
| 02:50.20 | JeffM1 | chatting between players that are not on the same server |
| 02:50.22 | JeffM1 | via the hub |
| 02:50.27 | dexter-1 | ooo |
| 02:50.33 | dexter-1 | wow, thats sweet |
| 02:50.34 | dexter-1 | nice |
| 02:50.34 | JeffM1 | chatting to people before you join a game |
| 02:50.39 | JeffM1 | lobby kinda thing |
| 02:50.58 | dexter-1 | can you chat in the hub while on a server? |
| 02:51.05 | JeffM1 | no clue |
| 02:52.01 | trepan | dexter-1: yes, when bzhubd is running |
| 02:52.11 | trepan | you can also chat before joining a server |
| 02:52.13 | dexter-1 | cool |
| 02:52.51 | JeffM1 | really should get that changed to hub.bzflag.org, not .bz |
| 02:52.55 | dexter-1 | i was wondering if the character count for onemessage could be raised up a bit |
| 02:53.13 | JeffM1 | what is the limit now? |
| 02:53.15 | dexter-1 | and like, the lines would break properly while typing so if you have a small screen it doesn't just type outside of it |
| 02:53.25 | dexter-1 | i am not sure at all but often not nearly enough |
| 02:53.33 | trepan | const int MessageLen = 128; // including terminating NUL |
| 02:53.35 | trepan | probably that |
| 02:53.38 | JeffM1 | ahh |
| 02:53.45 | JeffM1 | that is kinda short |
| 02:53.59 | JeffM1 | but there are more general text wraping issues IIRC |
| 02:54.26 | trepan | you probably won't be able to see what you're typing in near the end of the message anyways |
| 02:54.54 | JeffM1 | make them use twitter ;) |
| 02:55.21 | dexter-1 | thats what I mean |
| 02:55.25 | dexter-1 | Twitter has 140 chars:) |
| 02:55.30 | JeffM1 | you'll live |
| 02:55.33 | dexter-1 | that you can't see what you're typing is kind of frustrating |
| 02:55.42 | dexter-1 | i will live with 2.0.10 too, jeff |
| 02:55.45 | dexter-1 | thats not the issue :Pp |
| 02:55.47 | JeffM1 | that is a general problem you'd have that with chat |
| 02:56.09 | JeffM1 | get a bigger monitor |
| 02:57.31 | dexter-1 | lol right.. |
| 02:58.37 | JeffM1 | who said I was joking |
| 03:00.22 | dexter-1 | oh i know you're inconsideration is real, jeff :) |
| 03:00.35 | dexter-1 | although 13" is very cheap, lol |
| 03:01.34 | JeffM1 | it's not inconsideration, it's just a fact of life |
| 03:02.05 | JeffM1 | there are going to be a group of people who will have to buy somethign more then they have now for 3.0 if they don't want to have a degredation in experience |
| 03:02.11 | JeffM1 | display size is one of those |
| 03:02.21 | JeffM1 | we also incrased the min resolution |
| 03:02.22 | dexter-1 | it's a problem in 2.0.10 too |
| 03:02.31 | JeffM1 | yep |
| 03:02.41 | JeffM1 | we don't have a good text wraping solution |
| 03:02.43 | JeffM1 | specialy on input |
| 03:02.52 | JeffM1 | the chat system was not meant to be used that much |
| 03:02.55 | dexter-1 | so it could be one less in 3.0 but it isn't crucial |
| 03:03.02 | trepan | could just scroll it, the same as irssi and the like |
| 03:03.08 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:03.16 | JeffM1 | or increase the min res to 1024 :) |
| 03:03.33 | JeffM1 | that's considreed an ok assumption for webwork these days |
| 03:03.46 | JeffM1 | that could kill some netbooks tho |
| 03:03.50 | trepan | unless you're doing mobile compatible pages |
| 03:03.56 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:04.04 | JeffM1 | and well, bzflag is not mobile compatable ;) |
| 03:04.58 | JeffM1 | dexter-1: 3.0 is also going to assume hardware accelerated video |
| 03:05.08 | JeffM1 | those that used old software stuff will also be a bit SOL |
| 03:05.08 | trepan | zbuffer, fog, etc... |
| 03:05.12 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:05.19 | JeffM1 | its' just the way the technology goes |
| 03:05.20 | trepan | bsp still works, iirc |
| 03:05.29 | JeffM1 | yeah I think it does, but I'm not sure if anything turns it on |
| 03:05.49 | trepan | i think i used "/localset zbuffer 0" |
| 03:05.54 | dexter-1 | well |
| 03:05.55 | JeffM1 | k |
| 03:06.09 | dexter-1 | as long as hix works and a random ducati map, im fine |
| 03:06.20 | JeffM1 | what resolution do you run at? |
| 03:06.22 | dexter-1 | i dont play bzflag for esthetics |
| 03:06.37 | BulletCatcher | Few of us do. :-) |
| 03:06.44 | dexter-1 | set resolution "1280x800 " |
| 03:06.45 | JeffM1 | cus it's a fugly game |
| 03:06.49 | trepan | or for the quality network/physics simulation ;) |
| 03:06.55 | trepan | fugly in lots 'o ways ... |
| 03:06.57 | dexter-1 | i think it looks nice with the right textures |
| 03:07.16 | JeffM1 | it looks passable with the right textures |
| 03:07.22 | dexter-1 | lighting is done well in a lot of situations for instance and trepan has done some very neat things on occasion :) |
| 03:07.40 | trepan | dexter-1: it all looks like ass until you get shaders, imo |
| 03:07.40 | JeffM1 | lighting isn't done right |
| 03:07.43 | JeffM1 | it's a big hack |
| 03:07.47 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:08.01 | trepan | per-pixel normal mapping would be the bare minimum |
| 03:08.06 | dexter-1 | well im not a pro but i think it could look worse |
| 03:08.18 | JeffM1 | if bzflag does not die, I would not suprise me if 3.2 required shaders |
| 03:08.29 | JeffM1 | dexter-1: not really, bz is like bare bones bassic openGL |
| 03:08.29 | trepan | require GL3.2 :) |
| 03:08.42 | JeffM1 | most of the renering is out of the GL 1.1 redbook |
| 03:08.42 | trepan | all the real cards have it now, afaik |
| 03:09.02 | JeffM1 | that'd be a harder sell |
| 03:09.55 | Quol | I think my crappy nvidia embeded card is just opengl 2...not 3.2 |
| 03:10.09 | JeffM1 | how far back in cards can you go and support GLSL? |
| 03:10.35 | JeffM1 | shader level 2? |
| 03:10.44 | trepan | some of the crap cards have GL2.0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA |
| 03:11.27 | Quol | ya - funny enough the Intel's usually support gl 2.0...although I have had many ATI's that don't |
| 03:11.32 | JeffM1 | I'd hate to have to fall back to extensions |
| 03:12.50 | dexter-1 | blast007: ping |
| 03:12.53 | JeffM1 | writes it all managed |
| 03:13.04 | trepan | GL1.5 gets you buffers, GL2.0 gets you shaders, GL3.0 gets you conditional rendering and transform feedback |
| 03:13.25 | trepan | (GL3.0 also cleans up some of the vertex attrib nuissances) |
| 03:13.30 | trepan | (for NV, at least) |
| 03:13.44 | Quol | trepan, don't make me have to go out and buy a new card :) |
| 03:14.05 | trepan | whatcha got? |
| 03:14.09 | dexter-1 | trepan: dont you do this stuff professionally? |
| 03:14.14 | trepan | dexter-1: no |
| 03:14.17 | dexter-1 | like graphic design or something |
| 03:14.23 | dexter-1 | oh |
| 03:14.32 | JeffM1 | graphic design is NOT graphic programing ;) |
| 03:14.41 | JeffM1 | they are VERY different fields |
| 03:14.48 | JeffM1 | one dosn't even need a computer |
| 03:14.56 | dexter-1 | well |
| 03:15.00 | dexter-1 | true i guess |
| 03:15.11 | trepan | dated a graphic designer a while back, does that count? |
| 03:15.15 | JeffM1 | heh |
| 03:15.20 | dexter-1 | although graphic design these days means photoshop at the least |
| 03:15.27 | Quol | trepan, nothing special...at the momment I am just using the crappy embeded nvidia that came with my mobo...but ya, I will end up buying a dual headed card shortly, and moving to dual 24 inch display at 1080p.. |
| 03:15.38 | JeffM1 | was going to be one before he found the other rooms in the media building at school |
| 03:15.41 | trepan | gotta love a girl who knows the difference between RGB and HSV ;) |
| 03:15.53 | JeffM1 | smart girls rock |
| 03:16.30 | JeffM1 | just don't let her go into process art, girls with missing fingers suck |
| 03:17.07 | JeffM1 | Quol what onboard is it? |
| 03:17.39 | Quol | hmm - nvidia something :) |
| 03:17.44 | JeffM1 | how old? |
| 03:17.45 | Quol | checks |
| 03:17.52 | JeffM1 | cus even modern one do shaders |
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| 03:18.14 | trepan | any card that doesn't have rust on it ... |
| 03:18.59 | Quol | geforce 7100 (nforce 630i) |
| 03:19.11 | JeffM1 | yeah that has at LEAST shader 2 on it |
| 03:19.43 | Quol | I turn all that lighting stuff and all effects off so that I can play smoothly anyways.. |
| 03:19.45 | JeffM1 | probalby 3, cus it's a DX9 card |
| 03:20.05 | JeffM1 | well our current rendering isn't exactly what mondern cards are optimised for ;) |
| 03:20.30 | trepan | our current rendering does not work for GL3 |
| 03:20.34 | trepan | no immediate mode |
| 03:20.35 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:20.38 | JeffM1 | yep |
| 03:21.05 | JeffM1 | but it's not like cards will desuport GL 1.x |
| 03:21.09 | trepan | no glPushMatrix, no glVertex, no ... total rewrite ;) |
| 03:21.11 | JeffM1 | too many cad packages |
| 03:21.49 | JeffM1 | it's all VBOs and mult matrix isn't it? |
| 03:22.06 | trepan | could probably create a card independent wrapper for GL3 -> GL1 compat |
| 03:22.13 | trepan | no matrix |
| 03:22.21 | trepan | matrices are done as uniforms (usually) |
| 03:22.25 | JeffM1 | ahh |
| 03:22.45 | JeffM1 | well I'm sure each chipset company has a 1 -> 3 wraper they use already |
| 03:22.57 | JeffM1 | cus the card just does it all with microcode on the shader units |
| 03:23.12 | trepan | i'm told the matrix ops are done on the cpu |
| 03:23.21 | JeffM1 | really? that seems odd |
| 03:23.33 | JeffM1 | suck to loose the hardware T&L |
| 03:23.48 | trepan | matrix push/pop/rotate/translate/etc... |
| 03:24.00 | trepan | the vec * matrix would obviously still be in the shaders |
| 03:24.04 | JeffM1 | yeah |
| 03:24.13 | JeffM1 | guess you just bundle it all into that then |
| 03:25.06 | JeffM1 | has been working on riding himself of using transforms for camera |
| 03:25.22 | trepan | http://www.opengl.org/wiki/FAQ#glTranslate.2C_glRotate.2C_glScale |
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| 03:27.10 | JeffM1 | fun |
| 03:27.58 | trepan | i'd prefer slower (wrapped) GL1 drivers if it helped vendors make better GL3 drivers |
| 03:28.14 | JeffM1 | it'll probably go that way at some point |
| 03:28.25 | JeffM1 | but there are a LOT of GL1 apps |
| 03:28.30 | JeffM1 | in big industries |
| 03:29.25 | trepan | would just need 1 wrapper -- bit of a pita, but not unattainable |
| 03:31.04 | JeffM1 | well it'd take the GL desgin group 5 years to specify one, and the card vendors 5 years to agree on one :) |
| 03:32.01 | trepan | to specify one? just match GL2.1 as closesly as possible, no? |
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| 03:32.23 | JeffM1 | they'd want to specify how it'd do it in 3 and that'd be the pisser |
| 03:32.44 | JeffM1 | just has not been impressed with the GL board |
| 03:32.54 | JeffM1 | mostly the speed that they do things |
| 03:33.30 | JeffM1 | tries to decide what to write with all his little code bits |
| 03:35.02 | trepan | looks into GL3->GL1/2, to see how tall the cliff really is |
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| 03:36.34 | Quol | is trying to decide if he should fix the server that engineer's a work stupidly fork bombed, or leave it dead until monday |
| 03:36.49 | Quol | s/a/at/g |
| 03:37.02 | JeffM1 | depends on if you get paid to do it now or not :) |
| 03:38.18 | Quol | not really :)...so dead it stays...although I will probably get yelled at. But I will still have fun telling their boses that a couple of his "elite" engineers fell for a basic trick in the book and typed in a bash shell a magic key combo that bombed one of their build servers |
| 03:39.57 | Quol | and they did it twice...say that with me...twice...it's the second one that I am leaving dead. First one I fixed friday |
| 03:39.57 | MJ94 | ? |
| 03:40.09 | JeffM1 | hah |
| 03:40.15 | JeffM1 | was the dev told about it? |
| 03:41.29 | Quol | well -this particular project has just a couple of engineers on it, and they all know. But they don't have access to the servers physically (or the hardware level remote management), that's my team. |
| 03:41.33 | Quol | so they know :) |
| 03:41.58 | trepan | one bitten, twice bitten, thrice bitten? |
| 03:42.15 | Quol | ya - I want this to be a nice learning experience for them. |
| 03:42.23 | JeffM1 | the problem is they didn't get bitten, Quol was there to clean up the mess |
| 03:42.52 | Quol | well - they are loosing productivity know. I have 15 e-mails from them today :) |
| 03:43.39 | trepan | has known some exceptionally bright EEs who needed cheatsheets for cp/mv/chmod, depends on your field ... |
| 03:44.38 | Quol | even then...I couldn't believe that they typed in something that they read of the internet that they don't understand... |
| 03:44.53 | Quol | I mean if you don't understand: :(){:|:&}: |
| 03:44.59 | JeffM1 | pfffftt we do that all the time at work |
| 03:45.00 | trepan | (the guy i'm thinking of could build you a stable 100GHz amp out of cheese if he had a couple of days ;) |
| 03:45.04 | JeffM1 | even our IT does it |
| 03:45.05 | Quol | would you type that in just to see what it does? |
| 03:45.26 | Quol | oh - and don't type that in :) |
| 03:45.30 | JeffM1 | heh |
| 03:45.32 | Quol | unless you want to reboot |
| 03:45.35 | JeffM1 | only if I had rason to |
| 03:45.47 | JeffM1 | actualy I highly doubt it'd affect this machine |
| 03:45.48 | JeffM1 | ;) |
| 03:46.02 | trepan | wagers ... winders |
| 03:46.07 | Quol | ya - then do this in a batch file jeff: %0|%0 |
| 03:46.11 | Quol | :) |
| 03:46.15 | JeffM1 | only nix here is a vm |
| 03:46.44 | JeffM1 | tho I techincaly do own 2 real ones at an ISP and another on a VPS |
| 03:46.49 | JeffM1 | at least for this month |
| 03:47.06 | JeffM1 | or untill DTRemenak finishes migrating |
| 03:47.42 | Quol | ya - I am down to just 1 now...I was spoiled at my last job. working at a .com with unlimited bandwidth had it's perks :) |
| 03:47.50 | JeffM1 | heh |
| 03:48.01 | JeffM1 | I'll be done to one soon |
| 03:48.21 | JeffM1 | only reason I have 3 is cus I wanted to move off the old machine |
| 03:48.34 | JeffM1 | 70$ a month for a 2 gig P4 seemed high |
| 03:48.53 | Quol | ya...at some places pricing can be high |
| 03:49.10 | Quol | at peer1, (if I was paying for my current server), it would be close to300$/month |
| 03:49.15 | JeffM1 | nos it's 60 for dual cpu xeon 3.2s |
| 03:49.18 | Quol | no way I could justify that expense |
| 03:49.23 | JeffM1 | now even |
| 03:49.32 | JeffM1 | yeah that'd be A LOT :) |
| 03:49.42 | Quol | ya..but colo is higher |
| 03:49.51 | JeffM1 | I'm a little bummed that the vps didn't work out |
| 03:50.33 | Quol | I helped them out with a bgp routing issue a couple years back, and instead of getting a rebate on our monthly bill, I asked for 1U of rack space and an IP...they said yes :) |
| 03:50.44 | Quol | that was close to 5 years ago now...lol |
| 03:50.48 | JeffM1 | nice |
| 03:50.51 | Quol | can't believe it's lasted that long |
| 03:51.04 | JeffM1 | probably didn't cost them much of anything |
| 03:51.06 | Quol | I keep expecting to wake up one morning and have it offline :) |
| 03:52.08 | JeffM1 | hey, he moved his stuff! |
| 03:52.21 | Quol | they even still warn me when they are performing maintenance...how's that for support :) |
| 03:52.34 | JeffM1 | nice |
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| 03:54.30 | Quol | ooh - I am thinking about getting back into C++ land JeffM1, it's been a really LONG time since I have messed with anything though. the last 10 years have all been dynamic languages really, and .net web stiff for work...any suggestions? |
| 03:54.47 | Quol | stiff = stuff |
| 03:54.53 | JeffM1 | use C# :) |
| 03:55.23 | Quol | heh - ya, that's what I have written the last web sites at work in...you guys use c# for bz? thought it was all unmanaged C++? |
| 03:55.33 | JeffM1 | it is C++ |
| 03:55.59 | JeffM1 | I'd like it if it was C# |
| 03:56.08 | JeffM1 | you can do lots of cool things in C# quite easaly now |
| 03:56.25 | Quol | that's what I thought...well, if I get back into it, it would be to possibly help out...still don't know if I have the time though |
| 03:56.48 | JeffM1 | there's a V3 checklist for release on the wiki somewhere. |
| 03:57.03 | Quol | ya, the last 2 years of C# has been alright for me. lots of web services etc.. |
| 03:57.04 | JeffM1 | thinks he has allmost all the bits to make a C# bzflag :) |
| 03:57.19 | Quol | lol |
| 03:58.07 | JeffM1 | octree, model loaders/animators, audio, input management, shared gamestate and networking, auth |
| 03:58.25 | JeffM1 | got a portal world too, that could be interesting |
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| 04:05.09 | Quol | so when are you guys moving from SVN to GIT? :) |
| 04:05.50 | JeffM1 | I don't think that would offer us any real advantage |
| 04:05.56 | JeffM1 | but Sourceforge would have to support it |
| 04:06.30 | Quol | heh - wasn't really serious...just it seems like it's the "in" thing to do lately. |
| 04:06.43 | JeffM1 | it is for the GIT zealots ;) |
| 04:06.49 | JeffM1 | distributed VCS isn't a bad idea |
| 04:06.57 | JeffM1 | it just don't fit all projects |
| 04:07.17 | JeffM1 | it works well for "patch" based projects |
| 04:07.32 | JeffM1 | cus then your patch is a tree merge with history and that's cool |
| 04:07.45 | Quol | although, I do have to say, having a local copy makes things MUCH faster, and branching/merging is soo easy - it's ridiculous. |
| 04:08.01 | JeffM1 | yeah if you do lots of branching |
| 04:08.09 | JeffM1 | like patch based projects are wont to do :) |
| 04:08.40 | Quol | just to try out new ideas now, I use branches exclusively...just branch, try, and if I don't like...hit the reset, otherwise merge and keep going |
| 04:08.43 | JeffM1 | we'd prefer more group interaction with everyone pushing to a central repo |
| 04:09.10 | JeffM1 | many of our next tasks will be big ones that'll need multiple people working on it |
| 04:09.29 | JeffM1 | and we don't realy accept big code dumps with review |
| 04:10.04 | JeffM1 | that way lies dragons (1.8) |
| 04:10.40 | Quol | ya - makes sense. Although many projects report that small code contributions have gone up after moving over to GIT/GIThub...like cakephp - but ya, I hear ya |
| 04:10.45 | JeffM1 | I have heard that they are working on offline history for SVN |
| 04:10.56 | JeffM1 | so I can make local changes, keep hisotry then commit at one shot |
| 04:11.09 | JeffM1 | that'd give you the local benifits with the security of the central server |
| 04:11.19 | Quol | interesting.. |
| 04:11.51 | AAA_awright | It isn't an acronym :) And sf.net supports quite a number of revision control systems, including Git now |
| 04:12.00 | JeffM1 | AAA_awright: cool |
| 04:12.19 | JeffM1 | we just don't realy have the need for 2 random people to pull changes from each others trees |
| 04:12.33 | JeffM1 | thats' one of the big things with GIT |
| 04:12.35 | Quol | at work we moved over to GIT from SVN after I showed the core engineering team how I have been using GIT (just to learn it mostly)...and server side, it's much easier to support GIT repositories then SVN |
| 04:12.38 | AAA_awright | Multiple repositories, too, for a while you could only have one, and that wouldn't have worked very well |
| 04:13.27 | JeffM1 | if you keep a "master" repo what level of controll do you have for who pushes to it? |
| 04:13.45 | Quol | JeffM1, you have absolute control |
| 04:13.59 | JeffM1 | so we could use git like we do subversion then |
| 04:14.16 | JeffM1 | there just isn't any reason to swap, svn seems to work fine |
| 04:14.22 | Quol | we use gitosis at work...this is how it works: |
| 04:14.24 | JeffM1 | not like there are tons of commits :) |
| 04:14.28 | AAA_awright | Yeah, you control who has write access |
| 04:14.57 | AAA_awright | Other people can still commit to their local repositories, of course |
| 04:15.01 | AAA_awright | Gitosis is pretty cool |
| 04:15.05 | Quol | basically, I have one OS user (git), and each developer that should have "write" access to certain repositories is allowed to authenticate and execute GIT commands ONLY (not get a shell) |
| 04:15.05 | JeffM1 | "Move to git, then developers can Not work on code FASTER" ;) |
| 04:15.34 | Quol | so each developer has a public key that they are allowed to authenticate to with SSH, and commit |
| 04:15.56 | JeffM1 | that sounds more complex then the simple username/password that svn uses |
| 04:16.04 | Quol | the public repo's (for QA teams to code review/test) are GIT web clients... |
| 04:16.11 | Quol | it's way easier for me |
| 04:16.20 | Quol | with SVN it was a nightmare |
| 04:16.23 | JeffM1 | whatever works for ya then |
| 04:16.30 | Gabe_G23 | Quol: isn't there ssh-svn protocol? |
| 04:17.04 | Quol | we are talking about managing 2000+ developers with approx 400 SVN repositories...was nuts |
| 04:18.42 | Quol | with GIT, they create their keypair, the team leaders have write access to gitosis, so they control who has commit abilities, and away we go. I do nothing anymore (for that), and can concentrate on other busness architectural conerns :) |
| 04:20.23 | AAA_awright | Can you do branch-level permissions too, define who is allowed to advance certain branches? |
| 04:20.34 | Quol | Gabe_G23, ya - but we had issues with it..nowhere near as nice as gitosis...really impressed with that |
| 04:21.30 | Quol | AAA_awright, hmm - not sure...good question. At the momment it's write access to the repo level only. I don't think you can subdivide it...but not 100% sure about that |
| 04:21.48 | AAA_awright | Hmm, i can't imagine why you would want to, unless you are a control freak... I know it's possible |
| 04:21.57 | AAA_awright | in general |
| 04:21.59 | JeffM1 | we lock branches at work all the time |
| 04:22.14 | JeffM1 | we have a locked branch now while the product is in duplication |
| 04:22.32 | JeffM1 | that way noone can commit to it untill we tag it as the release and then make the maint branch |
| 04:22.34 | Quol | you wouldn't just tag it? |
| 04:22.40 | Quol | after the QA process has completed? |
| 04:22.52 | Quol | that's what we do...so the developers never stop. |
| 04:22.55 | JeffM1 | becuase someone may find a showstoper and we have to fix it and redupe |
| 04:23.03 | JeffM1 | we don't want any other fixes in that |
| 04:23.12 | JeffM1 | it's not a tag untill it shipps |
| 04:23.33 | JeffM1 | if they keep going on that line then if we have a showstoper we have to pick up and QA all the new work they did too |
| 04:23.49 | JeffM1 | they have another "new dev" branch to work in |
| 04:23.55 | JeffM1 | so they don't stop working |
| 04:24.11 | Quol | right now we just use tags, and if someone finds a bug after it's tagged, we branch from that tag, test out the fix and merge it back/destroy that newly created branch - works nicely |
| 04:24.12 | JeffM1 | they just arn't suposed to be putting thins into the frozen line, unless they are specificly told to |
| 04:24.50 | JeffM1 | it all depends on your teams abilities |
| 04:25.03 | JeffM1 | that method would be harder for our QA/build "team" |
| 04:25.33 | JeffM1 | can you lock your tag? |
| 04:25.46 | Quol | well- your new branch which is based on the tag is 100% the code they QA'd a month ago or whatever. So all those tests they ran are still valid |
| 04:25.48 | JeffM1 | or are tags not also branches? |
| 04:25.57 | Quol | in GIT - everything is locked really...you can't change things directly |
| 04:26.20 | JeffM1 | then how do you commit? :) |
| 04:26.39 | JeffM1 | tho we arn't using svn at work ether |
| 04:27.09 | AAA_awright | Visual SourceSafe? ;) |
| 04:27.12 | JeffM1 | no |
| 04:27.16 | JeffM1 | Surround SCM |
| 04:27.22 | JeffM1 | we used to use VSS |
| 04:27.28 | JeffM1 | but we moved to Surround |
| 04:27.36 | Quol | well - GIT tracks snapshots between your files...so each commit is a new snapshot of the files that changed. Each file is an object itself, so you can rename it without any of the issues you have in SVN for example |
| 04:27.37 | JeffM1 | it's integration with the bug tracker is kickass |
| 04:27.52 | JeffM1 | attach source files to the bugs from the IDE when you commit |
| 04:28.26 | JeffM1 | so when the bug comes back to you, you can go right into the history and see what you did at that time |
| 04:28.26 | Quol | ya - I used to like SVN/Trac for that very reason - was nice |
| 04:28.49 | JeffM1 | we can enforce the link too, cus the bug tracker is made by the same people as the VCS |
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| 04:29.00 | JeffM1 | so you can't 'forget' to attatch to the defect :) |
| 04:30.12 | JeffM1 | I've been using AnkhSVN at home, it's pretty good now for IDE integration |
| 04:30.39 | AAA_awright | Git should be getting "notes" soon, metadata that you can attach to a commit after the fact, to append the commit message, the mailing list was talking about attaching files, etc |
| 04:31.00 | Quol | ahh - that's an interesting idea |
| 04:31.09 | JeffM1 | yeah that's what it would need before third parties start to integrate with it |
| 04:31.51 | Quol | well - the hooks system is impressive...comparable to SVN"s hook system I guess.. |
| 04:32.05 | Quol | but GIT gives you more "breakdowns" with hooks |
| 04:32.18 | Quol | more specific I think...but mostly comparable |
| 04:32.45 | JeffM1 | at least there are more GIT tools now |
| 04:32.58 | Quol | lol - I sound like I love GIT don't I :)...but GIT on windows is still not the best |
| 04:33.09 | JeffM1 | there are better tools now |
| 04:33.17 | JeffM1 | and yeah GIT users tend to gush about it |
| 04:33.22 | JeffM1 | they are kinda scarry sometimes |
| 04:33.39 | Quol | tortoisegit is coming along nicely...but still not tortoisesvn... |
| 04:34.11 | Quol | I do have to say that it's been an interesting experience porting from SVN to GIT, and learning GIT... |
| 04:34.26 | Quol | in some areas, very eye opening. |
| 04:34.42 | JeffM1 | it's always good to learn new ways of doing things |
| 04:34.59 | AAA_awright | Learning what an "acyclic directed graph" is used for :) |
| 04:35.20 | JeffM1 | the problem I had with the GIT zealots at a confrence was there (his) instistance that his way was "better" |
| 04:35.46 | JeffM1 | and the inability for them to see that for some projects the methods they used would be counterproductive |
| 04:36.09 | AAA_awright | Do you remember anything specific? |
| 04:36.12 | Quol | ya - that's the "LInus" way though.. |
| 04:36.13 | JeffM1 | as in sending students off for months to bust out code in there own repos and then merging it back in at the end. |
| 04:36.24 | JeffM1 | yeah it was very much a "make a patch" way |
| 04:36.40 | AAA_awright | What was his quote? "I name all my projects after myself, first 'Linux' now 'Git'" |
| 04:36.47 | JeffM1 | it was at SOC, and we were trying to say that SVN and CIA helped us keep track of students |
| 04:37.04 | Quol | AAA_awright, ya - I remember reading that too |
| 04:37.06 | JeffM1 | cus we required them to commit to the central repo as they worked. |
| 04:38.56 | Quol | our seniors have enjoyed using GIT with the newer/untrusted juniors...as they don't have commit privileges. So they MUST branch, develop, and then the seniors can easily with one command look at their work, review it, and merge it/commit to the central repo |
| 04:39.24 | JeffM1 | yeah when you have that kind of tierd structure it makes sense |
| 04:39.26 | Quol | so they do like that...they used to go nuts yelling at "who commited this crap"...now they feel like they have more control |
| 04:39.55 | JeffM1 | we wanted to point out that at our size, we WANTED them to come here and commit and let people see the code as they do it |
| 04:40.06 | JeffM1 | and face the reprocussions of people using it as they do it |
| 04:40.12 | JeffM1 | then it's more of an interactive thing |
| 04:40.58 | Quol | yup..nothing like feeling the fire after you know your code screwed something up...you won't make that mistake again :) |
| 04:41.29 | JeffM1 | that and it makes you discuss your code and ideas with people as you work on them |
| 04:41.42 | JeffM1 | instead of going off in a corner and wasting time on a bad idea |
| 04:42.06 | Quol | ooh - we have lots of wasted times on bad ideas :) |
| 04:42.17 | Quol | heck - even Microsoft does that |
| 04:42.23 | JeffM1 | indeed |
| 04:42.39 | JeffM1 | given the limited time of SOC, it's REALY bad for them to waste time |
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| 04:43.18 | Quol | infact we are deeling with them now on a bug that we found with their new group policy preference extensions that they put in...it is the most stupid architecture...I can't believe microsoft decided on it |
| 04:45.25 | Quol | they basically cache everything to files with these new GPP's onto your disk (which is OK I guess). But imagine a terminal server that sees 1500 unique users in a couple of weeks. These files in the GPP cahce dir are thousands and thousands of entries. |
| 04:46.23 | Quol | the stupid GPP code goes through *each* one...even if that cache folder doesn't belong to his account....in kernel space....end result, locked terminal server for 10 seconds every time 1 user logs on |
| 04:47.19 | AAA_awright | blast007: Have you seen https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2901560&group_id=3248&atid=303248 ? |
| 04:47.52 | Quol | how's that for a "time wasted bad idea" :) |
| 04:49.28 | blast007 | AAA_awright: nope, hadn't seen that |
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| 05:57.09 | Omnifarious | Hello. |
| 05:57.26 | Omnifarious | How do you register on a server if you have a nick you need to register for? |
| 06:02.47 | Quol | Omnifarious, have you registered on the official forums? |
| 06:03.32 | Quol | my.bzflag.org/bb |
| 06:03.57 | Quol | once you register there, you can put that info (username and password) in your bzflag. |
| 06:04.11 | Quol | pretty much all servers use global authentication now... |
| 06:04.26 | Quol | if you are trying to play for the leagues - then there's extra steps you have to take for that also |
| 06:04.32 | Quol | GU for example.. |
| 06:06.40 | Omnifarious | I have. |
| 06:06.49 | Omnifarious | And I just figured it out and feel stupid. |
| 06:06.58 | Omnifarious | I'd never noticed the 'password' field there before. |
| 06:07.08 | Quol | nah - dont feel stupid - welcome to bzflag :) |
| 06:07.18 | Omnifarious | Oh, I've been a player for a long, long time. |
| 06:07.23 | Omnifarious | Just never registered before. |
| 06:07.32 | Quol | ahh - ok |
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| 06:17.04 | Omnifarious | Quol_asleep: Thank you. |
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| 06:46.11 | CIA-87 | BZFlag: 0375.81.201.131 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6916 10/w/Jargon: |
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| 07:45.18 | AAA_awright | blast007: Do you have any thoughts on my patch? |
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| 16:07.06 | blast007 | AAA_awright: looks fine at a quick glance |
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| 23:26.48 | thefirstdude | ... |
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| 23:27.00 | JeffM2501 | ....! |
| 23:27.33 | thefirstdude | I just said a question...and it disapeared |
| 23:28.06 | thefirstdude | I was saying I made so that the server ignores MsgKilled but when I shoot a bot it still blows up..why is this? |
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