| 01:08.57 | Supertanker | Is bzflag trunk 2.4.x or 2.99.x? |
| 01:09.23 | mdskpr | 2.4.x |
| 01:10.04 | Supertanker | Thanks. |
| 01:29.03 | allejo | can the url job in the api handle sending an email? |
| 01:31.53 | blast007 | not itself |
| 01:32.03 | blast007 | you could hit a script on a web server that does it, though :) |
| 01:38.04 | allejo | alright thanks for the info |
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| 04:13.41 | allejo | in the URLDone() in the API, it returns "void* data" and I'm trying to convert it to an std::string, this is my attempt but it's causing a segfault http://pastebin.com/USCrZA18 any help please? |
| 05:17.42 | JeffM | that's because it's not a string ;) |
| 05:19.16 | JeffM | how are you converting it? |
| 05:20.09 | JeffM | oh god... learn C++ |
| 05:20.30 | JeffM | it's a char* make a new string and assign the pointer to it |
| 05:29.30 | allejo | so a simple std::string std::string siteData = (char*)(data)? |
| 05:29.35 | JeffM | yes |
| 05:29.46 | allejo | *facepalm* |
| 05:29.49 | JeffM | C does nto have a string |
| 05:30.03 | JeffM | so why would we return a pointer to a STL template? |
| 05:30.56 | JeffM | if I was going to return a specific class I'd have returned a ref to that class |
| 05:31.46 | allejo | oh |
| 05:32.34 | allejo | thanks for the help jeff. love you :D |
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| 05:46.55 | JeffM | the reason for the void* is that it may not be text |
| 05:47.21 | JeffM | it could be binary data |
| 05:48.15 | allejo | ahh that makes sense, i was wondering why the void* |
| 05:49.19 | JeffM | you can request anything over a url |
| 05:50.32 | allejo | better accept all forms instead of limiting it? |
| 05:50.50 | JeffM | the void* is the C way of specifying arbitary data |
| 05:52.53 | JeffM | it is a pointer to a block of memory that is the right size for the platform |
| 05:53.36 | allejo | wait so a void* is used when you can't be sure the amount of memory needed for the data? |
| 05:54.27 | JeffM | it's a pointer to data |
| 05:54.42 | JeffM | so if you have a pointer and a size, it's an arbitary block of memory |
| 05:54.48 | JeffM | and you can cast it to whatever you know it is |
| 05:55.04 | JeffM | someone still has to allocate the memory and know the size |
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| 05:57.02 | JeffM | in this case curl knew how big the responce was but dosn't know what it is |
| 05:57.11 | allejo | ohhhhhhhhhh so that's why i pointed it to a char*? |
| 05:57.25 | JeffM | yes because you know it's a block of text |
| 05:58.08 | JeffM | but in your code you were trying to just cast the memory to a std::string pointer |
| 05:58.26 | JeffM | and a std::string is a C++ class implemented in the Standard Template Library |
| 05:58.34 | JeffM | and that is a LOT more then just text characters |
| 05:59.35 | allejo | ohh that makes sense |
| 06:01.47 | JeffM | so yeah that's why that thing crashed |
| 06:02.00 | JeffM | you were executing a string as if it was a class |
| 06:05.00 | allejo | thanks for the clarification jeff |
| 06:12.55 | moiree | sb |
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| 06:40.32 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Wildrune11 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r0 10/File:Laser.png: A laser being fired on Castle Warfare. |
| 06:42.18 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Wildrune11 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r8160 10/Laser: Added image |
| 06:43.01 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Wildrune11 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r0 10/File:Laser.png: A laser being fired on Castle Warfare. |
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| 09:11.47 | apeman | what does LOCAL.GLOBAL mean? |
| 09:13.39 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Mr Burns 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r8162 10/Laser: Undo revision 8160 by [[Special:Contributions/Wildrune11|Wildrune11]] ([[User talk:Wildrune11|talk]]) because thumbnail does not generate. See discussion for error message. |
| 09:15.34 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Mr Burns 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r8163 10/Talk:Laser: /* presentation of error dialogue */ |
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| 11:55.01 | blast007 | if apeman comes back, I don't think that LOCAL.GLOBAL has any meaning anymore. Looks like it's a relic from when we had local auth. |
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| 18:26.26 | JeffM | why is the automatic answer for "I changed my password and can't log in" not "and....?" |
| 18:28.35 | ruskie | lol |
| 18:31.18 | blast007 | heh |
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| 18:44.01 | rathis | So I haven't played BZFlag in awhile. |
| 18:44.46 | rathis | Today, when I tried to connect to servers, it just stayed on "Trying... |
| 18:45.18 | mdskpr | did you upgrade to 2.4? |
| 18:45.20 | rathis | Except for "Ziggurat", where I was able to logon to the server, but unable to spawn |
| 18:45.29 | rathis | yes, but it doesn't work on 2.0.16 or 2.4 |
| 18:46.17 | rathis | blast007 |
| 18:47.03 | rathis | The troubleshooting article said that it was probably "my internet being to slow" |
| 18:47.16 | rathis | That's not a valid reason in my case. |
| 18:47.43 | rathis | any other suggestions, mdskpr? |
| 18:48.56 | rathis | herm |
| 18:50.22 | rathis | Oh, system information: OSX 10.6.8 || NVIDIA GeForce 9400M GFX card |
| 18:52.02 | rathis | Anybody? |
| 18:52.33 | mdskpr | maybe you are caught in a hostban? |
| 18:52.54 | rathis | hmmm |
| 18:53.02 | Supertanker | I can connect to most servers, and *my* Internet is 28.8k slow. So it's probably not that. :) |
| 18:53.23 | mdskpr | does it say anything when you try to join servers? |
| 18:53.23 | Supertanker | (I didn't say anything about staying connected or not getting kicked for absolutely sucking, though :>) |
| 18:53.29 | rathis | Supertanker: Yeah, I have a 50mb/s fibre optic connecton. :) |
| 18:53.36 | Supertanker | Yes. Yes, probably not that. |
| 18:53.55 | rathis | mdskpr: No, just "Trying..." |
| 18:54.02 | rathis | Where are logs stored? |
| 18:54.39 | JeffM | there are no logs |
| 18:54.51 | mdskpr | you can do -debug |
| 18:55.00 | mdskpr | that will give you more information |
| 18:56.54 | rathis | using debug, I got some info about creating a UDP socket on port ####. |
| 18:57.09 | rathis | no errors as far as I could tell, although the text was red? |
| 18:57.17 | mdskpr | ah, you don't have udp? |
| 18:57.49 | rathis | No, no, BZF said it was creating a socket |
| 18:57.57 | rathis | not that I needed to create one (I don't think) |
| 18:58.48 | rathis | "Created local UDP downlink port" |
| 18:59.23 | rathis | command line output has this on last line: |
| 18:59.23 | rathis | Server BZDB change blocked: 'poll' = '142953528' |
| 18:59.30 | mdskpr | try adding more -debug |
| 18:59.34 | Supertanker | Maybe pastebin it for us to see as well? |
| 18:59.40 | rathis | pastebin what? |
| 19:00.12 | mdskpr | the more -debug you add the more info it spits out |
| 19:00.12 | JeffM | do you support UDP? |
| 19:00.38 | rathis | Dunno |
| 19:00.47 | JeffM | bzflag requires UDP now |
| 19:01.13 | rathis | How do I check/enable? |
| 19:01.37 | JeffM | we don't know that'd be up to your network |
| 19:01.46 | JeffM | most OSs allow it by default |
| 19:01.47 | blast007 | even if that was the problem, you would still be able to get *into* the server, and even spawn |
| 19:01.55 | blast007 | it would only kick you once you tried to shoot |
| 19:02.04 | JeffM | don't we try the UDP test first? |
| 19:02.13 | rathis | Only server I can get onto is Ziggurat, but I cannot spawn "Press i" |
| 19:02.13 | blast007 | unless that changed, no |
| 19:02.28 | rathis | Nothing happens. |
| 19:02.31 | blast007 | in 2.0, at least, we only checked for UDP once you fired a shot |
| 19:02.47 | blast007 | rathis: can you join bzexcess.com port 5154? |
| 19:03.41 | rathis | blast007: nope. |
| 19:04.04 | rathis | Oh, how do I run windowed now? -window option doesn't work. |
| 19:04.16 | JeffM | it does |
| 19:04.18 | blast007 | -window 640x480 |
| 19:04.19 | JeffM | -window 800x600 |
| 19:04.30 | rathis | Ah, requires dimensions now |
| 19:04.32 | JeffM | it was combined with geometry |
| 19:05.45 | blast007 | I'm not even seeing a connection in my logs |
| 19:05.56 | JeffM | are you firewalled? |
| 19:06.02 | rathis | Not anymore |
| 19:06.07 | JeffM | are you sure? |
| 19:06.12 | Supertanker | What about trying to join with an IP address? |
| 19:06.22 | rathis | Yes. |
| 19:06.23 | JeffM | that just changes the dns lookup |
| 19:06.29 | JeffM | what OS are you on? |
| 19:06.34 | blast007 | he's on OSX 10.6 |
| 19:06.34 | rathis | OSX 10.6.8 |
| 19:06.45 | blast007 | ~nslookup bzexcess.com |
| 19:06.52 | JeffM | well there may be ares issues |
| 19:06.57 | JeffM | dual boot to windows |
| 19:07.03 | blast007 | try joining that IP directly |
| 19:07.14 | mdskpr | ahh yes cause zigg is connection by IP |
| 19:07.20 | mdskpr | thats why itworked for him |
| 19:07.23 | JeffM | there was a crash in 10.6 , but that was smoothing IIRC |
| 19:08.17 | rathis | yeah, that worked blast007 |
| 19:08.30 | blast007 | your DNS is le-borked, then |
| 19:08.35 | blast007 | at least in the game |
| 19:08.54 | blast007 | is this the official binaries? |
| 19:09.18 | rathis | Yes. |
| 19:09.32 | blast007 | "Rapid Echo: wow, I get 100 errors when I fire (no shot_tail texture)" |
| 19:09.49 | blast007 | did you ever build bzflag from source on this system before? |
| 19:09.54 | rathis | Yes. |
| 19:10.01 | blast007 | and did you 'make install' it? |
| 19:10.15 | rathis | Probably. Was a couple of years ago. |
| 19:10.20 | rathis | Don't really remember |
| 19:10.27 | rathis | (don't see why I wouldn't) |
| 19:10.34 | blast007 | pull up a terminal and type 'bzflag' and see if it runs a client |
| 19:10.53 | rathis | indeed |
| 19:11.01 | blast007 | okay, that's at least part of your problem |
| 19:11.11 | rathis | Remove source install? |
| 19:11.14 | blast007 | yeah |
| 19:11.24 | mdskpr | that client would be 2.0.16.... |
| 19:11.26 | blast007 | if you have the old source yet, you can do 'sudo make uninstall' |
| 19:11.32 | JeffM | how did you run it in a window? just type bzflag -window or did you CD to the dir in the .app? |
| 19:11.42 | blast007 | otherwise you might have to weed out all the files yourself |
| 19:12.06 | rathis | JeffM: sorta |
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| 19:12.19 | blast007 | 'make install' of bzflag on OSX generally breaks everything all to heck since that's only used linux/bsd/etc |
| 19:12.25 | rathis | I would run it from the executable in the compile directory |
| 19:12.38 | blast007 | so then the game gets confused and starts pulling in stuff from the 'linux' paths instead of from the .app |
| 19:12.38 | JeffM | then how you are you using the official bins? |
| 19:12.45 | JeffM | we shipped a .app |
| 19:12.48 | blast007 | he's using the official 2.4.0 ones |
| 19:12.54 | blast007 | he had build a 2.0.16 before |
| 19:12.55 | rathis | *used to* |
| 19:12.57 | blast007 | built* |
| 19:12.58 | rathis | right. |
| 19:13.21 | rathis | Wait, bzexcess is on 2.4, right? |
| 19:13.21 | JeffM | I understand what you have now, I want to kno what version you ran when you ran windowed |
| 19:13.22 | blast007 | the 2.4.0 client is finding the system-installed files from 2.0.16 and using those instead of the ones from the .app |
| 19:13.31 | rathis | JeffM: 2.0.16 |
| 19:13.34 | blast007 | bzexcess is 2.4, yes |
| 19:13.35 | JeffM | ok |
| 19:13.47 | rathis | Hah, you're right blast. |
| 19:13.50 | rathis | I just looked closer |
| 19:13.54 | JeffM | THAT is why I asked |
| 19:14.01 | rathis | The header image says 2.0.16 |
| 19:14.05 | blast007 | yup |
| 19:14.15 | blast007 | cuz it's finding them in the 'linux-ish' paths ;) |
| 19:14.33 | JeffM | silly macintosh, unix is for adults |
| 19:14.41 | blast007 | so.. you'll have to clean out all the files that 'make install' threw around on your system and get rid of them |
| 19:14.53 | blast007 | it might have installed an ares lib somewhere too, which is causing problems now |
| 19:14.58 | rathis | well, I'll try make uninstall |
| 19:15.01 | blast007 | k |
| 19:15.10 | blast007 | that *should* get rid of it all |
| 19:15.59 | rathis | Heh, no fonts found. Won't launch |
| 19:16.21 | rathis | Why isn't it using resources from the .app? |
| 19:17.12 | rathis | blast007: so what now? |
| 19:18.41 | blast007 | check your 2.4 config file ( http://wiki.bzflag.org/Config_File ) and see if there is a 'set directory' line there. If so, delete it. |
| 19:19.04 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22277 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/FlagHistory.cxx: Eek. I knew I did something wrong. Thanks to brlcad for pointing at it. Prefer prefix ++ |
| 19:19.17 | blast007 | delete the line, that is |
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| 19:22.33 | rathis | blast007: nope, no such line |
| 19:23.05 | blast007 | k, one sec |
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| 19:29.22 | blast007 | rathis: do you have a /usr/local/share/bzflag/ directory? |
| 19:29.40 | blast007 | probably will only show up in the Terminal |
| 19:30.17 | rathis | yes |
| 19:30.27 | blast007 | delete that entire directory |
| 19:31.51 | rathis | done |
| 19:32.01 | rathis | launches now, but still doesn't connect. |
| 19:32.23 | blast007 | yep, that'll be the "fun" part |
| 19:32.35 | rathis | Oh goody, a "fun" part. |
| 19:32.45 | blast007 | your 'make install' of 2.0.16 probably put an ares runtime lib somewhere |
| 19:33.11 | blast007 | and I'm not entirely sure how to track that down |
| 19:33.18 | blast007 | you *might* be able to use strace to do it |
| 19:33.29 | blast007 | or possibly ldd |
| 19:34.06 | blast007 | I forget the layout of a .app |
| 19:34.15 | blast007 | but basically it's a directory that contains a set of files |
| 19:34.34 | blast007 | you can right click on the app and choose something like "show contents" |
| 19:35.07 | blast007 | then find the bzflag executable (there will also be a bzadmin and bzfs in the same spot) |
| 19:35.23 | rathis | done |
| 19:35.38 | rathis | ./Contents/MacOS/bzflag |
| 19:35.50 | blast007 | then pull up a terminal, type ldd and a space, and drag the bzflag executable over the terminal (it will copy the full path to the 'bzflag' binary to the terminal) |
| 19:35.53 | blast007 | and then hit enter |
| 19:36.02 | rathis | ldd isn't installed |
| 19:36.06 | blast007 | hehe |
| 19:36.10 | blast007 | what about strace? |
| 19:36.14 | rathis | nope |
| 19:36.18 | rathis | not on macports either |
| 19:36.20 | blast007 | darn.. |
| 19:36.31 | blast007 | I'd think it'd be part of the apple dev tools |
| 19:36.48 | rathis | I have those installed. |
| 19:36.59 | blast007 | hrm |
| 19:38.48 | rathis | ok |
| 19:38.58 | rathis | found alternative on mac |
| 19:39.04 | rathis | "dtruss" |
| 19:39.14 | blast007 | see if there's a file in /usr/lib/ that has libcares in the name |
| 19:39.25 | rathis | seems to only examine running processes though. |
| 19:39.26 | rathis | ok |
| 19:39.37 | blast007 | I have a /usr/lib/libcares.so.2.0.0 on linux |
| 19:39.53 | blast007 | don't delete it, though |
| 19:40.11 | blast007 | perhaps look in /usr/local/lib/ first and see if there's something there |
| 19:41.04 | rathis | Nothing containing "ares" in either /usr/lib/ or /usr/local/lib |
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| 19:41.12 | blast007 | okay |
| 19:42.04 | blast007 | well, I think I've reached the limit of what I can help with. but that's my hunch. it's probably finding an old ares lib somewhere, which is what we use to do DNS resolution. |
| 19:42.42 | blast007 | an strace like thing would be your best bet to figure out what file it's loading |
| 19:43.15 | blast007 | though note that you're in dangerous territory now - OSX hides these ares on purpose because they don't want people digging into stuff like /usr |
| 19:43.34 | blast007 | these areas* (been typing ares too much, I guess) |
| 19:44.38 | rathis | what do I do with ares when I find him? |
| 19:45.58 | blast007 | depends |
| 19:46.13 | blast007 | I'd say rename it to something else |
| 19:46.13 | McSpider | could it be that his bzflag isn't finding c-ares at all? |
| 19:46.23 | blast007 | McSpider: if that was the case, it wouldn't even run |
| 19:46.35 | McSpider | ah ok |
| 19:46.50 | rathis | I ran it with dtrace, no output contains the word ares? |
| 19:46.55 | blast007 | hmm |
| 19:48.06 | rathis | Time to cleanly install OSX. x) |
| 19:48.15 | blast007 | perhaps ;) |
| 19:48.44 | blast007 | can you get dtruss? |
| 19:48.59 | rathis | I have that. |
| 19:49.27 | blast007 | try this: dtruss -f -t open /path/to/the/bzflag |
| 19:50.35 | blast007 | and if you're trying to grep that, it might output the trace info the stderr instead of stdout, so try this: dtruss -f -t open /path/to/the/bzflag 2>&1 | grep ares |
| 19:51.27 | rathis | good tip. :) |
| 19:52.05 | rathis | no results |
| 19:52.08 | blast007 | darn |
| 19:52.17 | blast007 | well, I'm stumped :) |
| 19:52.53 | rathis | How harmful could it be to wipe every file with libcares in it's name on my computer? |
| 19:53.01 | rathis | *its |
| 19:53.02 | blast007 | could break the entire system |
| 19:53.23 | rathis | What about "sudo rm -rf /" |
| 19:53.39 | blast007 | if you can find them though, look for ones modified around the time that you had installed 2.0.16, since it would have a modified date from the build time |
| 19:54.06 | rathis | fastest way to scour a hdd for files modified in a certain date range? |
| 19:54.21 | rathis | off to google, I suppose. |
| 19:54.21 | blast007 | and then I'd recommend not deleting them, but instead renaming them to have an underscore at the beginning of the name |
| 19:54.25 | blast007 | one sec |
| 19:55.09 | blast007 | find / -name libcares\* |
| 19:55.30 | blast007 | or use \*libcares\* |
| 19:58.35 | rathis | k, running both. |
| 20:05.06 | *** join/#bzflag apeman_ (~Packman@115-188-244-191.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 20:12.04 | rathis | blast007: so far it's only found some old libs in a old directory (renamed to opt.old) and the file in the bz source |
| 20:16.45 | blast007 | ok |
| 20:18.04 | rathis | should I get rid of the bz source? |
| 20:20.04 | blast007 | that shouldn't matter |
| 20:22.46 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22278 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/CustomLink.cxx: (style) Unused variable: to_string |
| 20:24.11 | *** join/#bzflag sabayonuser (~sabayonus@2.Red-79-152-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:24.26 | sabayonuser | this is a game no? |
| 20:24.36 | sabayonuser | tanks game no? |
| 20:25.45 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22279 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/SpawnPolicy.cxx: (warning) Member variables 'SpawnPolicy::...' are not initialized in the constructor. |
| 20:26.07 | *** part/#bzflag sabayonuser (~sabayonus@2.Red-79-152-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:27.15 | rathis | What was that? |
| 20:27.20 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22280 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/SpawnPosition.cxx: (warning) Member variables 'SpawnPosition::...' are not initialized in the constructor. |
| 20:30.28 | blast007 | rathis: referring to sabayonuser or CIA-109? |
| 20:31.20 | rathis | sabayonuser. :) |
| 20:31.27 | rathis | I know what CIA-109 is about. |
| 20:32.12 | JeffM | CIA shows commits to the code |
| 20:32.15 | JeffM | and to the wiki |
| 20:32.28 | rathis | right. |
| 20:32.47 | JeffM | oh the user was some kid |
| 20:33.14 | blast007 | that was just someone that knew more about IRC than google ;) |
| 20:33.15 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22281 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/WorldEventManager.cxx: (performance) Prefer prefix ++/-- operators for non-primitive types. |
| 20:33.58 | rathis | blast007: I didn't think people like that existed. :) |
| 20:34.03 | JeffM | ohh yeah |
| 20:34.08 | JeffM | all the time |
| 20:34.26 | blast007 | well, my point is that they knew very little about IRC too ;) |
| 20:34.31 | rathis | heh |
| 20:34.35 | blast007 | since they used the default username too |
| 20:34.49 | JeffM | there are idiots everywhere in the world |
| 20:34.53 | Supertanker | Goodness. My keyboard would've been a great candidate for dirtiest keyboard ever....that's what I get for not looking at it ever. :) |
| 20:35.08 | JeffM | you should see some here |
| 20:35.15 | rathis | Here being where? |
| 20:35.21 | blast007 | over there |
| 20:35.22 | JeffM | can you read the letters on the keybard |
| 20:35.27 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22282 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/WorldInfo.cxx: (warning) Member variables 'WorldInfo::...' are not initialized in the constructor. |
| 20:35.34 | JeffM | or is it a cake of finger dirt? |
| 20:35.37 | rathis | there is a nice place to visit in the summer. |
| 20:35.46 | JeffM | it's nice here in the winter too |
| 20:36.00 | JeffM | only a tad brisk today |
| 20:36.47 | rathis | temp? |
| 20:36.52 | JeffM | 65ish |
| 20:39.47 | Supertanker | I was referring more to the alien pod creatures that were living under my keys. Also, it feels much easier to type now. :) |
| 20:39.50 | Supertanker | Wow, way easier to type. |
| 20:39.53 | Supertanker | And more quiet as well. |
| 20:40.14 | Supertanker | Worth the hour or so of popping keys off and cleaning. :) |
| 20:40.26 | JeffM | yeah I've seen worse |
| 20:40.36 | JeffM | we have to just throw away Sean's keyboards they are so nasty |
| 20:40.45 | rathis | When you say alien pods, do you mean something like Trypophobia? |
| 20:40.47 | Supertanker | Yuck |
| 20:40.50 | Supertanker | And what a waste. |
| 20:41.03 | JeffM | usualy you can't see the letters and all the numbers are sticky |
| 20:41.09 | JeffM | sunflower seed shells fall out |
| 20:41.16 | rathis | jeez |
| 20:41.24 | Supertanker | Someone needs one of those membrane covers :) |
| 20:41.33 | JeffM | keyboards are cheap |
| 20:41.47 | rathis | What if sean uses a laptop? :) |
| 20:41.48 | Supertanker | Oh |
| 20:41.55 | Supertanker | Backspace is sticking |
| 20:41.58 | JeffM | we would not provide him one |
| 20:42.10 | JeffM | his job dosn't need a laptop |
| 20:43.02 | Supertanker | \\ |
| 20:43.47 | Supertanker | There we go, backspace is working again. |
| 20:43.57 | JeffM | thanks for sharing |
| 20:44.16 | Supertanker | Backspace is important! How else can you disguise typos? |
| 20:44.16 | rathis | JeffM: Now I want to know where you work. |
| 20:44.22 | JeffM | in an office |
| 20:44.27 | JeffM | upstairs |
| 20:44.37 | rathis | Most IT guys I know work in forests. |
| 20:44.44 | JeffM | IT? |
| 20:44.49 | JeffM | what is that? |
| 20:44.51 | Supertanker | I couldn't imagine the travesties that would happen if Sean had a laptop. |
| 20:44.54 | Supertanker | It would be very, very sad. |
| 20:45.09 | rathis | Information Technology? |
| 20:45.13 | JeffM | tho I guess I have a dotted line to IT |
| 20:45.17 | JeffM | I am not in that dept |
| 20:45.22 | JeffM | tho I do have a key to the server room |
| 20:45.39 | JeffM | I am a software developer |
| 20:45.42 | JeffM | and only backup IT |
| 20:45.46 | JeffM | cus we only have 2 IT guys |
| 20:45.55 | rathis | So why are you providing keyboards? |
| 20:46.07 | JeffM | not me personaly, the company does |
| 20:46.08 | rathis | Is that not a duty that usually falls to IT guys? |
| 20:46.13 | rathis | Oh, ok. |
| 20:46.15 | JeffM | I just have seen the nastyness |
| 20:46.30 | JeffM | I got the IT guy his job here, he's my friend |
| 20:46.40 | rathis | Nice of you. |
| 20:47.04 | JeffM | that's how it works here, most people knew someone who worked here before they got the job |
| 20:47.52 | rathis | sounds like a nice environment. |
| 20:47.56 | Supertanker | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:48.05 | JeffM | it is super easy to work here |
| 20:48.08 | rathis | blast007: find finished. No other hits besides the source |
| 20:48.56 | rathis | as in, the workload is super easy? |
| 20:49.01 | JeffM | no |
| 20:49.08 | JeffM | I have way too much to do :) |
| 20:49.14 | JeffM | just the rest of it |
| 20:49.16 | rathis | as in, it's fun to work here? |
| 20:49.18 | JeffM | there is no BS |
| 20:49.24 | rathis | no drama |
| 20:49.33 | rathis | So not like The Office? |
| 20:49.54 | JeffM | no, not like a fictional company that is shown on a TV show |
| 20:53.02 | blast007 | rathis: OSX might name their stuff differently. I don't have a mac to verify that though. |
| 20:54.26 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22283 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/ (6 files): (performance) Prefer prefix ++/-- operators for non-primitive types. |
| 20:55.04 | blast007 | does this yield anything? ls /usr/local/lib/*ares* |
| 20:55.12 | rathis | blast007: Hmm. well, new find using \*ares\* |
| 20:56.12 | rathis | my /usr/local/lib only contains wxpython libs |
| 20:56.19 | blast007 | probably easier to just go with JeffM's advice and dual-boot Windows ;) |
| 20:56.25 | blast007 | k |
| 20:56.57 | rathis | Well, I've wanted to do a clean install for a while now anyway. |
| 20:56.58 | rathis | :) |
| 20:57.11 | JeffM | boooooooootcamp |
| 20:57.25 | JeffM | you'll get newer video drivers that way too |
| 20:57.55 | rathis | I already have Win7, just don't like it. |
| 20:57.57 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22284 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/BZDBCache.cxx: (performance) Function parameter 'var' should be passed by reference. |
| 20:58.08 | blast007 | you'll get used to it ;) |
| 20:58.09 | rathis | Whadda bout my linuxMint partition? |
| 20:59.15 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22285 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/ErrorHandler.cxx: (performance) Possible inefficient checking for 'parms' emptiness. |
| 21:00.10 | Constitution | ~tupone++ |
| 21:00.27 | JeffM | at least someone is doing something |
| 21:00.39 | JeffM | even if it is just fixing warnings for a distro |
| 21:01.34 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22286 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/GameTime.cxx: |
| 21:01.35 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: (style) Checking if unsigned variable 'count' is less than zero. |
| 21:01.35 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: (performance) Possible inefficient checking for 'timeRecs' emptiness. |
| 21:02.34 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22287 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/OSFile.cxx: (style) Unused variable: theFileExt |
| 21:03.08 | JeffM | he's probably fixing them so he can build debug |
| 21:03.14 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~TimRiker@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 21:03.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:06.34 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22288 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/StateDatabase.cxx: (performance) Possible inefficient checking for 'operators' and 'evaluationStack' emptiness. |
| 21:07.32 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22289 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/TextChunkManager.cxx: (performance) Prefer prefix ++/-- operators for non-primitive types. |
| 21:08.37 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03atupone * r22290 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/TextUtils.cxx: (style) Unused variable: result |
| 21:11.46 | Supertanker | It's too bad the changes that need to be made are so fundamental...and there's so few developers with time :/ |
| 21:12.22 | blast007 | time/motivation |
| 21:12.23 | Constitution | s/time/interest/ |
| 21:13.46 | Supertanker | Heh, yeah. |
| 21:14.19 | blast007 | I have time to play Left 4 Dead 2 quite often ;) |
| 21:14.26 | blast007 | in fact, I've put in around 400 hours |
| 21:14.27 | JeffM | I have time to play SWTOR |
| 21:14.45 | blast007 | close to 700 hours between L4D and L4D2 |
| 21:15.03 | JeffM | blast007, loves or hates him some zombies |
| 21:15.20 | Supertanker | Heh |
| 21:15.23 | JeffM | did that game make you read a wiki to figure out who to shoot? |
| 21:15.32 | blast007 | nope! |
| 21:15.42 | blast007 | it was, like, all intuitive and stuff |
| 21:15.55 | JeffM | does it have a cursor that hovers over button like things that you can't click on? |
| 21:16.06 | blast007 | no, it actually lets you click stuff! |
| 21:16.13 | blast007 | it's so amazing! |
| 21:18.33 | Supertanker | Hahaha |
| 21:18.42 | Supertanker | Just realized what you were going on about. |
| 21:18.57 | JeffM | how do you compute the lag of the zombie to know how far ahead to lead it? |
| 21:19.24 | blast007 | well, if you have that much lag, you just can't freaking *play* :P |
| 21:38.00 | *** join/#bzflag djlawler (~dlawler@static-173-59-115-18.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:38.21 | djlawler | it's pretty clear that the Ziggurat server has been badly hacked |
| 21:38.55 | djlawler | i was on a moment ago and someone 'notorious skeet' had the shockwave radius set to something huge |
| 21:39.14 | blast007 | isn't the shockwave radius there normally huge? |
| 21:39.25 | djlawler | it covered the entire map |
| 21:39.36 | blast007 | oh well |
| 21:39.53 | blast007 | there's plenty of other servers |
| 21:40.02 | djlawler | yes there are |
| 21:40.11 | djlawler | but at the time it was the most popular |
| 21:40.30 | djlawler | and people tend to stupidly think that it is the game that is hacked |
| 21:40.37 | djlawler | not just the server |
| 21:40.46 | blast007 | we can't fix stupid |
| 21:40.51 | djlawler | i know |
| 21:41.06 | Supertanker | Shame, shame. |
| 21:41.15 | Supertanker | You could come to my 28.8k dialup server. |
| 21:41.20 | djlawler | but if the opportunity comes along to help the server owner 'you' might want to think about helping ;) |
| 21:41.31 | Supertanker | It'll be great, really. You won't ever be TK'd. Because only one person at a time can connect. :P |
| 21:41.31 | blast007 | nah, I'd rather not |
| 21:41.36 | djlawler | ugh |
| 21:41.38 | djlawler | ok |
| 21:41.39 | Supertanker | Heh,. |
| 21:41.45 | djlawler | no skin off my nose |
| 21:41.54 | blast007 | because I'm not convinced it's not the owner causing it |
| 21:42.04 | djlawler | oh wow |
| 21:42.10 | djlawler | that would be extremely ugly |
| 21:42.30 | Supertanker | Yeah :/ |
| 21:42.44 | blast007 | unless the "hacker" has access to his server and his forum accounts ;) |
| 21:42.48 | djlawler | and are they admins elsewhere? |
| 21:43.03 | blast007 | and has been managing the global groups for zig for months |
| 21:43.48 | blast007 | so, yeah, I'm not feeling real motivated to jump in and help out ;) |
| 21:44.19 | Supertanker | Dialup server. Really, Only 350ms lag. |
| 21:44.42 | djlawler | oh boy...someone might want to post on the forums that the hack does not seem to extend to other servers and that people should think about coming up with a new favorite server ;) |
| 21:45.22 | djlawler | as long as the problem is not a bzflag one i'll be happy to find alternatives :) |
| 21:46.48 | djlawler | supertanker....that would make me think I was back in the OLD days |
| 21:47.12 | Supertanker | I was around back in the old days. |
| 21:47.14 | Supertanker | I was also a git. |
| 21:47.25 | djlawler | turkey monngroup? |
| 21:47.30 | djlawler | *moon |
| 21:47.31 | Supertanker | Speaking of which, is it at all possible to delete old forum posts I made? |
| 21:47.35 | Supertanker | I am incredibly ashamed. |
| 21:47.39 | djlawler | LOL |
| 21:48.00 | djlawler | yes....everything you have ever said on the internet is there forever! |
| 21:48.18 | Supertanker | Including the time I said that I thought Justin Beiber was cool^H^H^H^Hannoying? |
| 21:48.24 | Supertanker | Le gads! |
| 21:48.25 | blast007 | Supertanker: lol |
| 21:48.33 | djlawler | oh that is .... sad |
| 21:48.43 | Supertanker | Hahahahahahaha |
| 21:48.52 | blast007 | and nope, they are saved foreva! your public postings will be remembered until the end of time! |
| 21:49.03 | djlawler | only his hair is awesome :O |
| 21:49.07 | blast007 | and they're probably even cloned at archive.org ;) |
| 21:49.12 | Supertanker | Well, they're no worse than some of the other people that can't spell and are 13-year-old n00bs. |
| 21:49.22 | djlawler | this is true |
| 21:49.25 | Supertanker | Someone should get Beiber and Trump in the same room to have a hair contest. |
| 21:49.28 | blast007 | wut u mean?????? |
| 21:49.40 | Supertanker | blast007, no u |
| 21:50.05 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 21:50.09 | djlawler | ok....well I'm off to find a new server ;) |
| 21:50.14 | djlawler | ciao |
| 21:50.20 | *** part/#bzflag djlawler (~dlawler@static-173-59-115-18.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:51.59 | JeffM | isn't that the server run by "easy tank" or whatever |
| 21:53.26 | *** join/#bzflag allejo__ (~allejo@cpe-76-90-186-178.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 21:55.38 | blast007 | no |
| 21:55.45 | blast007 | Supra7 or some such |
| 22:00.30 | JeffM | wonder if his password was password |
| 22:03.03 | apeman | *tries it now* |
| 22:03.04 | blast007 | password3 |
| 22:03.44 | *** join/#bzflag mdskpr_ (~mdskpr@108.25.131.122) |
| 22:06.20 | JeffM | every instance I've seen of "hacking" in bzflag has been simply poor admin configuration |
| 22:06.36 | blast007 | yeah |
| 22:06.53 | blast007 | the "exploits" that have been found just typically screw up the game state a bit |
| 22:07.27 | Supertanker | You know, I'm tempted to start a 2.4 server on my shell |
| 22:07.51 | JeffM | so we'll have yet another? |
| 22:07.55 | Supertanker | A "tradional" server (i.e., 1-3 shots at most, few flags, no geno, maybe jumping?) |
| 22:08.04 | Supertanker | Like the way I remember it and not the way it is now :P |
| 22:08.12 | Supertanker | I doubt it'd get much traffic though. |
| 22:08.23 | JeffM | like the other 250? |
| 22:08.32 | Supertanker | Thought so :P |
| 22:08.44 | JeffM | there are 280 servers |
| 22:08.51 | JeffM | we cap at just over 100 players |
| 22:09.14 | Supertanker | Yeah, that's sad. |
| 22:09.36 | JeffM | the players are usualy on 6 or so servers |
| 22:13.28 | Supertanker | Well, I managed to get one new player addicted to the game. |
| 22:13.36 | Supertanker | My boss likes it because it's "so simple" |
| 22:13.50 | JeffM | once you explained it to him right? |
| 22:13.53 | Supertanker | We got away with a small LAN party in the computer lab where I work. |
| 22:14.10 | Supertanker | Somewhat, yes. We had some problem with DNS resolution but that was my bad because I forogt that the network basically runs on WINS. |
| 22:14.19 | Supertanker | (BZFlag does not like WINS) |
| 22:14.28 | JeffM | how did he know it was ok to shoot black tanks ? |
| 22:15.02 | Supertanker | Actually, I don't think we had rogues that game. |
| 22:15.14 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:15.19 | Supertanker | We did make a point to play on the same team though. |
| 22:15.54 | Supertanker | So what kind of work actually *would* be required to completely fork BZFlag? |
| 22:16.09 | JeffM | depends on what you wanted to do to fork it |
| 22:16.10 | Supertanker | How much can be taken from the old codebase? |
| 22:16.26 | Supertanker | I meant if a real "BZFlag II" project ever got up off the ground. |
| 22:16.35 | JeffM | personaly I would take 0 from the old codebase |
| 22:16.39 | JeffM | it has nothing to offer |
| 22:16.49 | Supertanker | I think the problem would be planning it--nobody seems to like planning. |
| 22:16.55 | JeffM | or what it does would be reimplemented easaly |
| 22:17.01 | JeffM | planing is fine |
| 22:17.02 | Supertanker | Everyone's like "Yeah! Sure dude, I can code!" or "I can't code--you do it!" |
| 22:17.07 | JeffM | just wriging wiki pages |
| 22:17.11 | Supertanker | Heh |
| 22:17.17 | JeffM | I write lots of wiki pages |
| 22:17.29 | Supertanker | Wiki is good. |
| 22:17.39 | JeffM | its the only way to do it in a multi user environment |
| 22:18.20 | JeffM | I think a new game could be at a basic playable state in 3-4 months with 3-6 people working on it |
| 22:18.40 | JeffM | if libs were used for most of the things needed |
| 22:19.01 | JeffM | maybe a bit longer depending on the scope of the server backend |
| 22:19.30 | Supertanker | Do we have 3-6 people? |
| 22:19.39 | JeffM | who is "we"? |
| 22:20.01 | JeffM | this project is a loose affiliation of people who do things |
| 22:20.06 | JeffM | it generaly dosn't have roles |
| 22:20.22 | blast007 | not even the dinner variety |
| 22:20.25 | JeffM | for that timeframe I think people would have to take specific roles and resposniblity |
| 22:21.41 | Supertanker | Hmm |
| 22:23.06 | Supertanker | The thing is that I'm tempted to say "Sure, I'll help;" but I've not written any complicated C++ code and my knowledge is mostly theoretical and rudimentary. (Although I do seem to be understanding more and more of the source code as I read it. Maybe that upcoming compsci degree is actually good for something.) |
| 22:23.16 | Supertanker | What other roles would you be looking for? |
| 22:23.54 | blast007 | it probably wouldn't be C++ |
| 22:24.07 | Supertanker | Oh. |
| 22:24.11 | blast007 | probably C# |
| 22:24.24 | Supertanker | My knowledge just dropped to 0. :) |
| 22:24.28 | blast007 | :) |
| 22:25.17 | JeffM | it's just a language |
| 22:25.41 | JeffM | I'd want a Game Designer, Engine Lead, GUI Lead, Server Lead, and Services Lead |
| 22:25.51 | Supertanker | True. They all start to meld together after awhile. |
| 22:25.54 | JeffM | then eventualy support and admin leads |
| 22:26.12 | JeffM | some of them could be the same people but it would depend on workload |
| 22:26.29 | JeffM | if the team got big enough a Producer would be good too |
| 22:26.38 | JeffM | but the designer can do that roll if needed |
| 22:26.49 | Supertanker | Yah |
| 22:27.08 | JeffM | Also at some point you may want an Art team |
| 22:27.54 | Supertanker | For things such as tank models, logos, etc? |
| 22:28.15 | JeffM | you would want a consistent art style for the entire project |
| 22:28.18 | JeffM | to keep it unified |
| 22:31.42 | Supertanker | Well, when enough people are interested, I will throw in my hat in whatever way possible. :) I just don't want to see BZFlag die. |
| 22:32.04 | Supertanker | Although right now I don't understand enough about the game engine to know what should be changed (other than a shift from fat client to thin client) |
| 22:33.01 | Supertanker | It's less of an "I don't understand C++" now and more of a "How do these pieces fit together and what's the purpose of this class?" |
| 22:37.37 | JeffM | it's mostly just knowing how to problem solve with a programers mindset |
| 22:37.46 | JeffM | and general object orient programing |
| 22:37.53 | JeffM | after that language dosn't matter |
| 22:38.13 | JeffM | with C# you get some nice stuff since everything is a reference |
| 22:38.19 | JeffM | but you pay for that in speed |
| 22:38.33 | JeffM | so you may change how you program a litle |
| 22:38.42 | JeffM | but for the most part the layout is the same as C++ or java or whatever |
| 22:39.06 | *** join/#bzflag allejo (~allejo@cpe-76-90-186-178.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 22:40.08 | Supertanker | Yah; that's not so much the problem right now as I don't know what each of these classs are supposed to do in relation to each other. |
| 22:40.15 | Supertanker | I probably just haven't studied the code long enough. |
| 22:42.26 | JeffM | the current code is not very well layed out |
| 22:42.52 | JeffM | from my experiments I found it simpler to make objects for the things in games |
| 22:42.59 | JeffM | player, shots, objects |
| 22:43.22 | JeffM | and they are contained in a thing called the "state" |
| 22:43.36 | Supertanker | Makes sense |
| 22:43.43 | Supertanker | I was amused at all the derivations of Player |
| 22:44.02 | JeffM | yeah I find that lame |
| 22:44.07 | a_meteorite | It makes my head hurt |
| 22:44.09 | Supertanker | It reeks of a college course. |
| 22:44.15 | Supertanker | "This is how you use OO!" |
| 22:44.17 | JeffM | in bzflag the client does too much |
| 22:44.20 | a_meteorite | Not that I'd ever call myself a BZFlag programmer |
| 22:44.31 | JeffM | the entire game is done in the client |
| 22:44.34 | Supertanker | Heh |
| 22:44.37 | JeffM | it shoudl be done in the server |
| 22:44.38 | Supertanker | Yeah, that's just not nice. |
| 22:44.44 | Supertanker | From what I can tell, the server mostly relays updates. |
| 22:44.49 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:45.02 | a_meteorite | It's pretty dumb |
| 22:45.02 | Supertanker | "<client> claims it picked up a flag! Okay, I guess <client> has this flag! Tell everybody!" |
| 22:45.03 | JeffM | it started as a one file C++ file that just did packet relay in a loop |
| 22:45.03 | allejo | it's like a game of cops and robbers with kids in a back yard |
| 22:45.15 | JeffM | it's a lan game |
| 22:45.21 | Supertanker | And another kid coming in with tranquelizer darts and stun beams? |
| 22:45.26 | a_meteorite | where you could go punch a cheater :P |
| 22:45.30 | Supertanker | Hahahaha |
| 22:45.33 | Supertanker | "HAAAAAAAX!" |
| 22:45.33 | JeffM | no another kid shouting "bang" and trusting you to fall over |
| 22:45.45 | JeffM | a dart would be real |
| 22:46.01 | Supertanker | Heh |
| 22:46.05 | allejo | lol i remember playing with darts |
| 22:46.09 | Supertanker | "Okay, Jimmy's dead!" |
| 22:46.13 | JeffM | it it up to the client that is shot to say "I died" |
| 22:46.26 | JeffM | the shooter has nothing to do with it |
| 22:46.33 | Supertanker | "I'm dead!" "Bobby's dead!" "Okay, we all know that Bobby is dead now." |
| 22:46.43 | Supertanker | "I'm invisible!" "Okay, everyone, pretend you don't see Bobby." |
| 22:46.47 | JeffM | yes |
| 22:46.54 | Supertanker | Definitely need a stronger server. :P |
| 22:46.56 | JeffM | not the best way to do an internet game |
| 22:47.04 | JeffM | it's more then that |
| 22:47.10 | JeffM | the client needs to respect the server |
| 22:47.12 | Supertanker | "I'm invisible!" "Well, you don't have the invisibility flag, so...you suck." |
| 22:47.17 | Supertanker | Aye. |
| 22:47.25 | JeffM | no, the client should never say "i'm invisible" |
| 22:47.31 | JeffM | the server should say "You are invisible" |
| 22:47.35 | Supertanker | Ahh, that makes more sense. |
| 22:47.38 | JeffM | and stop sending updates to the people that can't see you |
| 22:47.40 | blast007 | the client and server should both do the simulation, but the server state should take priority |
| 22:47.41 | Supertanker | So the server needs to know where shots, flags, etc are. |
| 22:47.53 | JeffM | the entire game should be able to be played on the server with no graphical clients |
| 22:48.03 | JeffM | just inputs |
| 22:48.42 | JeffM | so it's more then just fidling with what we do now and doing checks, it's moving all the logic to a different place |
| 22:48.56 | JeffM | and making that simuation system be able to deal with latent input |
| 22:49.29 | JeffM | then the networked players are just remote viewers of that one state |
| 22:49.30 | Supertanker | So it seems like if the server is designed well, the client design (which should be mostly graphical) should follow from that. |
| 22:49.40 | JeffM | yes the client woudl be super dumb |
| 22:49.50 | Supertanker | The server "runs" everything and just sends out *appropriate* updates to the clients, which send back movement, etc. |
| 22:49.54 | JeffM | the only reason to have it compute things would be to hide lag with interpolation |
| 22:50.06 | JeffM | yes |
| 22:50.11 | JeffM | that's how most modern games work |
| 22:50.19 | JeffM | you get input from clients, run the game, and give them output |
| 22:50.21 | Supertanker | Seems like the only thing that clients should ever send are acknowledgements, movements, fire commands, etc. |
| 22:50.28 | Supertanker | Yeah. How simple that sounds. :P |
| 22:50.34 | JeffM | the clients draw what they expect the server to give back untill the server responds |
| 22:50.44 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:50.59 | JeffM | quake sends the actual input keys to the server |
| 22:51.03 | JeffM | and runs on a fixed frame rate |
| 22:51.08 | blast007 | this is also why most modern games cannot be played on high latency connections :) |
| 22:51.08 | blast007 | you get 250ms of lag, and you can't even walk through doorways |
| 22:51.08 | JeffM | with delayed graphics |
| 22:51.16 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:51.20 | JeffM | there are ways to ballance it |
| 22:51.31 | Supertanker | Heh |
| 22:51.32 | JeffM | that's where I think some of the time in a rewrite will come |
| 22:51.37 | Supertanker | Zt[BTremulous on dialup was interesting. |
| 22:51.38 | JeffM | finding the best system |
| 22:51.43 | Supertanker | Don't know how I actually managed to do that. But it's Quake III based. |
| 22:51.55 | JeffM | full input, or interpolation |
| 22:51.56 | JeffM | or a mix |
| 22:52.05 | blast007 | Supertanker: Try FEAR Combat on dialup on an nVidia 5200 PCI :P |
| 22:52.14 | Supertanker | The mix sems like it'd be best but most complicated. |
| 22:52.28 | JeffM | the client input, networking, and sim need to be threaded as well |
| 22:52.34 | JeffM | and on the server |
| 22:52.35 | blast007 | I tried for like 3 minutes to walk through a door.. kept snapping me back inside |
| 22:52.44 | Supertanker | Freaking doors. How do they work? |
| 22:53.13 | Supertanker | Well, I'm off to do Christmas shopping for the family. Talk to you later. |
| 22:53.16 | Supertanker | & |
| 22:53.17 | JeffM | have fun |
| 22:54.57 | JeffM | the tank motions are slow compared to quake so I think an interpolated system may work out but I don't know |
| 23:17.47 | *** join/#bzflag cp (ad4fe549@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.79.229.73) |
| 23:19.41 | rathis | Having the server do more work is almost always a better solution. |
| 23:20.29 | rathis | Minecraft has this problem, just a different manifestation of it. |
| 23:22.00 | rathis | I guess that makes sense if you start a game out as single player and expand it to include multiplayer. |
| 23:22.47 | JeffM | or don't know how to do network coding |
| 23:22.53 | rathis | In retrospect, the game should've been developed where the client is always "dumb", regardless of single player or multiplayer situations. |
| 23:23.19 | rathis | And then all you have to do is have a local *server* running when the player wants to do singleplayer |
| 23:23.25 | rathis | Much better solution. |
| 23:23.49 | JeffM | that's how bzflag was developed |
| 23:23.58 | JeffM | it has never been single player |
| 23:24.21 | rathis | Right, my point was better made with a single player game |
| 23:25.20 | JeffM | minecraft was made by a single developer as an experiment that took off |
| 23:25.21 | rathis | But if that is how it was developed, why is so much analysis/processing done on the client-side? |
| 23:25.25 | JeffM | he'll do better next time |
| 23:25.36 | JeffM | oh because the author didn't know how to do proper networking |
| 23:25.38 | rathis | He can start by not coding in Java. :) |
| 23:25.42 | JeffM | and assumed lan play was all that woudl happen |
| 23:25.48 | JeffM | java worked for him |
| 23:26.21 | JeffM | it let him have a browser based game and that's what he wanted the option of having |
| 23:26.58 | rathis | java isn't the only language which allows for web clients. |
| 23:27.10 | JeffM | no but it is one of the more popular ones |
| 23:27.19 | JeffM | and it's probably what he was comfortable ith |
| 23:27.29 | rathis | Of course it was. |
| 23:27.36 | rathis | Doesn't make it a good language. |
| 23:27.43 | JeffM | it has it's strenghts |
| 23:27.47 | JeffM | every language does |
| 23:28.10 | rathis | Not necessarily true. |
| 23:28.20 | JeffM | ok whitespace is a lame language :) |
| 23:28.31 | rathis | :) |
| 23:28.39 | JeffM | I can understand why he picked it and it's worked out ok for him |
| 23:28.53 | JeffM | as he grows as a company he'll get better at picking the best tools for his tasks |
| 23:29.24 | rathis | brainf**k is an excellent language as well. |
| 23:29.50 | JeffM | it's a language made to make fun of languages :) |
| 23:29.57 | JeffM | lolcode works too |
| 23:30.10 | rathis | but that have their strengths! |
| 23:30.10 | JeffM | and lolcode is compatable with the CLI :) |
| 23:30.30 | JeffM | well it's unreadable and if that's what you want.... |
| 23:30.41 | JeffM | I don't consider those real languages |
| 23:30.49 | JeffM | as people don't use them in production environments |
| 23:30.54 | rathis | fine, fine. |
| 23:30.55 | JeffM | they were eperiments |
| 23:31.37 | rathis | But I don't think that any "strength" which is not inherently a part of the language is not, in fact, a strength. |
| 23:31.59 | JeffM | some strengths are in the support for third party libs |
| 23:32.16 | JeffM | you have to look at it's use as a whole in how it fits into your project |
| 23:32.25 | JeffM | and not look at the language acedemicly |
| 23:32.32 | JeffM | for them java worked |
| 23:32.36 | JeffM | personaly I'd never use java |
| 23:32.42 | JeffM | too much of a pain to deploy |
| 23:32.47 | JeffM | and not enough lib support |
| 23:33.02 | JeffM | but for the guts of the language it is functional enough |
| 23:33.05 | rathis | So what, in your opinion, are its strengths? |
| 23:33.15 | rathis | also, I had never heard of LOLcode. |
| 23:33.19 | rathis | It's hilarious |
| 23:33.28 | rathis | ending loops with KTHXBYE is brilliant. :) |
| 23:33.29 | JeffM | how many other systems can use it, like embeded devices etc... |
| 23:33.58 | JeffM | and it's use on the web etc... |
| 23:34.09 | JeffM | there are also a lot of libs for it |
| 23:34.19 | JeffM | that is the strenth of the java platform |
| 23:34.25 | rathis | <+JeffM> and not enough lib support |
| 23:34.35 | JeffM | libs for what I need |
| 23:34.38 | JeffM | it has a lot of libs |
| 23:34.39 | rathis | gotcha. |
| 23:34.42 | JeffM | more then C# |
| 23:34.57 | JeffM | but not a lot in the places I need for the way I like to do game projects |
| 23:35.17 | rathis | how do you like to do game projects? |
| 23:35.19 | JeffM | and deploying libs is a pain |
| 23:35.34 | JeffM | I like to keep things comparmented |
| 23:35.56 | JeffM | for the java stuff I've seen it's always been hard to set up GL, or get a window open, and all that |
| 23:36.03 | JeffM | and you have to install a bunch of third party libs |
| 23:36.07 | JeffM | it's probably better now |
| 23:36.22 | rathis | Was java YOUR first language? |
| 23:36.26 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 23:36.28 | JeffM | basic was |
| 23:36.31 | JeffM | then pascal |
| 23:36.32 | JeffM | then C |
| 23:36.33 | JeffM | then C++ |
| 23:36.38 | rathis | Never COBOL? |
| 23:36.49 | JeffM | no, I never had to use cobol |
| 23:37.00 | JeffM | there was vax assembly in there somewhere too |
| 23:37.26 | rathis | So you've never used Java in a production environment? |
| 23:37.31 | JeffM | no I have not |
| 23:37.39 | JeffM | tho I'm sure I could deal if I was paid to |
| 23:38.12 | rathis | that's your responsibility as a programmer. :) |
| 23:39.09 | JeffM | exactly |
| 23:39.17 | JeffM | I didn't know php when I started here |
| 23:39.27 | JeffM | had to make a php component, so just read up and did it |
| 23:39.43 | JeffM | the language part isn't that big of a deal when programing |
| 23:39.59 | rathis | ugh, I don't like PHP. |
| 23:40.14 | JeffM | it's not my favorite ether |
| 23:40.27 | JeffM | but I've it's what we wanted to use |
| 23:40.31 | JeffM | it fit the needs best |
| 23:41.06 | JeffM | IT wanted it to run on a linux server and it had easy access to sql and stuff |
| 23:41.08 | JeffM | it worked out |
| 23:41.29 | JeffM | so I wrote a crappy CMS :) |
| 23:41.52 | rathis | best kind of CMS |
| 23:42.35 | JeffM | it's way better then the site it replaced, a fixed ASP site that just listed stuff in a directory |
| 23:42.44 | JeffM | not even a site, a single page |
| 23:42.55 | JeffM | using windows IIS basic authentication |
| 23:43.03 | rathis | please tell me that took the creator about 10 minutes to write? |
| 23:43.03 | JeffM | plaintext passwords FTW! |
| 23:43.14 | JeffM | I don't know he hasn't worked here for ages |
| 23:43.31 | rathis | Hah, so you know about basic authentication! |
| 23:43.40 | rathis | It's amazing how many people don't. |
| 23:44.14 | JeffM | I've writen a web server, I know about many types of authentication |
| 23:45.38 | JeffM | BZHTTPD supports all of them except SSL |
| 23:46.12 | rathis | You wrote a webserver for BZ? |
| 23:46.21 | JeffM | yep |
| 23:46.27 | JeffM | works on the same port as the game client |
| 23:46.34 | JeffM | so you can do web managment |
| 23:46.49 | JeffM | blast007's servers use it for fastmap |
| 23:47.05 | rathis | cool, didn't know that. |
| 23:47.18 | rathis | I might not have gotten as involved, but hey. |
| 23:47.19 | JeffM | it was a feature in 2.99, I backported it to 2.4 |
| 23:47.27 | JeffM | then rewrote the entire thing |
| 23:47.50 | rathis | Why not just push 3.0, while you are doing a bunch of rewriting? :) |
| 23:48.11 | JeffM | the one I did in 2.99 sucked |
| 23:48.18 | JeffM | the new one is MUCH better |
| 23:48.26 | JeffM | the API is better in 2.4 |
| 23:48.35 | JeffM | I'm much happier with it now |
| 23:48.53 | JeffM | 3.0 has a number of core issues |
| 23:48.57 | JeffM | we could not get anyone to work on it |
| 23:48.58 | rathis | Everything is better when you write it for the second time. Learning from your mistakes. |
| 23:49.17 | JeffM | so that's why we made 2.4, to get people working on a known codebase to get a release out |
| 23:49.24 | JeffM | and we had to push to get that to happen |
| 23:49.26 | rathis | Does Tim Riker still write code for BZ? |
| 23:49.44 | JeffM | I have seen him make small changes but I am not aware of him working on any features |
| 23:53.54 | rathis | well, in the words of my father, "good talk" :). In my time zone, it's time for some shuteye. |
| 23:55.03 | JeffM | have fun |
| 23:55.07 | JeffM | has to go buy bullets |
| 23:55.17 | mdskpr_ | o.0 |
| 23:55.46 | rathis | would ask, but doesn't want to |
| 23:56.02 | rathis | don't to anything rash before 3.0 is released. ;) |
| 23:56.19 | JeffM | no I"m going shooting at my dads house over the holidays |
| 23:56.28 | JeffM | so I need some shells |
| 23:56.37 | rathis | as long as your dad isn't dick Cheney |
| 23:56.41 | JeffM | nope |
| 23:56.53 | JeffM | there is a range in a dry river bed near his house |
| 23:57.24 | rathis | you say range, I think golf. |
| 23:57.50 | JeffM | there are many things you can fire down a range :) |
| 23:57.53 | JeffM | balls, bullets |
| 23:57.54 | blast007 | FORE! *bang* |
| 23:57.57 | JeffM | pumpkins |
| 23:58.30 | rathis | well, have fun discharging bits of metal from another bit of metal. |
| 23:59.02 | JeffM | indeed |