| 00:29.12 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * r98 10/trunk/unit0/ (3 files in 2 dirs): start instance messages |
| 01:22.09 | *** join/#bzflag Gaming4JC (~Gaming4JC@unaffiliated/gaming4jc) |
| 01:22.45 | Gaming4JC | I was just about to say we need a debian package, but it's already in the room title ;) |
| 03:06.13 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 03:06.13 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://wiki.BZFlag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || Please test SVN trunk for 2.4.2 release so we can have a debian package |
| 03:06.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 03:06.20 | blast007 | you'd have it all done on a single server over a single session |
| 03:07.02 | Gaming4JC | that's the purpose of OTR, if you find it's weakness I'd be interested. Because that would affect AIM specifically |
| 03:07.27 | Gaming4JC | always on a single server and session as well |
| 03:07.31 | Gaming4JC | directly through aol's server |
| 03:07.55 | blast007 | I'm not a security expert, just a security sceptic ;) |
| 03:08.08 | Gaming4JC | also the key's per message appear to be AES. |
| 03:08.49 | blast007 | just seems like if ALL the data is going through a single relay point that could be logged (or processed in real-time) that it would render the system useless |
| 03:10.00 | blast007 | or let's say this - what if the server decided to act like the other person? |
| 03:10.37 | blast007 | so instead of a secure channel between two people, there would instead be two secure channels, with the game server sitting between them? :) |
| 03:11.54 | blast007 | cuz I'm assuming there has to be some way of detecting the initial AKE, otherwise the other end wouldn't know it was starting |
| 03:13.46 | Gaming4JC | That's covered over MITM awareness -That's mentioned on the site that it can detect MITM attacks, one such method I actually recollect while using an insecure channel was |
| 03:13.52 | Gaming4JC | "malformed message recieved" |
| 03:14.07 | Gaming4JC | While data messages are being exchanged, either Alice or Bob may run SMP to detect impersonation or man-in-the-middle attacks. As above, all exponentiations are done modulo a particular 1536-bit prime, and g1 is a generator of that group. All sent values include zero-knowledge proofs that they were generated according to this protocol, as indicated in the detailed description below. In the zero-knowledge proofs the D values are calculated modul |
| 03:14.07 | Gaming4JC | o q = (p - 1) / 2, where p is the same 1536-bit prime as elsewhere. The random exponents are 1536-bit numbers. |
| 03:15.07 | Gaming4JC | it's technical enough I'd be more worried about how they figured out how to crack it than the messages they contained. |
| 03:15.21 | Gaming4JC | if they do crack it they might as well waste my gmail password in a flash |
| 03:15.33 | Gaming4JC | and all my other passwords since they aren't as hard to crack lol |
| 03:15.54 | Gaming4JC | anyways I'm no security expert either, but several reputable people told me about OTR |
| 03:16.02 | Gaming4JC | and it's been pretty good thusfar |
| 03:16.48 | Gaming4JC | but it's getting late and I need to catch some zzz's |
| 03:17.09 | Gaming4JC | have a good one, and ask around if a security guru comes by - most of them know of OTR. :) |
| 03:17.16 | blast007 | cya |
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| 04:05.31 | Flash | For all that about OTR, I don't think he understands the basics |
| 04:05.59 | Flash | in order to do the key exchange, there MUST be a peer-to-peer connection, which BZFlag doesn't have |
| 04:07.42 | JeffM | OTR? |
| 04:08.54 | Flash | BulletCatcher: the exception handling is "correct" but generally insignificant. I thought the -fno-exceptions was gone... did I do that locally? |
| 04:10.08 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03jwmelto * r22449 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: Enable exception handling. Ignoring them does you no good |
| 04:10.22 | Flash | Off-The-Record http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-Record_Messaging |
| 04:10.47 | JeffM | why would you want to do that in bzflag? |
| 04:10.55 | Flash | Some guy, Gaming4JC was here claiming that not having private, unloggable communication was destroying the game |
| 04:11.22 | JeffM | ummm... what? |
| 04:11.44 | JeffM | it's a game.... not a secure communications system |
| 04:11.47 | Flash | 19:24 < Gaming4JC> 1) Private whispers are logged and readable by admins. In order to prevent spam we should enable a mode which asks the user if they would like to go OTR, if the two parties agree it should be a truly P2P chat and/or use OTR as libpurple does. |
| 04:11.56 | JeffM | spam? |
| 04:12.00 | JeffM | what does that have to do with spam? |
| 04:12.13 | JeffM | that just sounds trolltastic |
| 04:12.32 | Flash | he had an experience on a disreputable server where an admin was commenting on his personal life that he was messaging to a friend |
| 04:12.43 | Flash | I think he doesn't comprehend what the game is for |
| 04:12.45 | JeffM | well don't go there. |
| 04:12.46 | JeffM | yeah |
| 04:12.59 | JeffM | I've heard that name mentioned with other troll statements |
| 04:13.32 | Flash | he filed a bug/enhancement request. I'm inclined to mark it "not worth fixing" |
| 04:14.15 | JeffM | what number? |
| 04:15.44 | Flash | I don't know. He said he did; I am not motivated enough to loog |
| 04:15.46 | Flash | look |
| 04:15.50 | JeffM | he did not |
| 04:15.55 | Flash | have to go bandage the wife's finger |
| 04:16.22 | JeffM | heh, he did. he put it in the support requests |
| 04:16.26 | JeffM | I'll take care of it |
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| 04:20.29 | apeman | if you used -pidfile to track which servers were up, how would you know when they're down (since they don't get deleted?) Any alternative suggestions? |
| 04:20.58 | JeffM | if you know what servers have been launched you can ask the OS if those ids are still running |
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| 04:21.03 | JeffM | they would show in the process list |
| 04:21.21 | apeman | if you were unlucky, could it have been replaced by a new process? |
| 04:21.38 | JeffM | I don't belive it works like that |
| 04:21.52 | JeffM | but it would depend on your OS |
| 04:22.28 | apeman | are you suggesting linux doesn't reuse PIDs? |
| 04:22.37 | JeffM | I don't know if it does RIGHT after one closes |
| 04:22.43 | JeffM | you would want to look into that |
| 04:22.54 | JeffM | I know a number of other systems use PID to check uptime |
| 04:22.57 | JeffM | so there has to be a way |
| 04:23.37 | JeffM | a simple google search says it does not reuse them untill it wraps around |
| 04:23.55 | JeffM | so you'd be good if you checked on a reasonable frequency |
| 04:23.57 | JeffM | "The kernel allocates PIDs in the range of (RESERVED_PIDS, PID_MAX_DEFAULT). It does so sequentially in each namespace (tasks in different namespaces can have the same IDs). In case the range is exhausted, pid assignment wraps around." |
| 04:24.48 | JeffM | There are several other documents that coroborate that |
| 04:31.09 | *** part/#bzflag Propane_Tank (~Propane_T@host-224-48-230-24.midco.net) |
| 04:40.05 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r22450 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: Don't explicitly use the -fomit-frame-pointer gcc option, as it is included with -O "on machines where doing so does not interfere with debugging." |
| 04:40.57 | BulletCatcher | That leaves us with just -fexpensive-optimizations with gcc in non-debug builds. Which should be plenty. |
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| 04:48.40 | BulletCatcher | apeman: "pgrep bzfs" gives a list of all of the pids of bzfs processes on the system. |
| 04:48.42 | BulletCatcher | If the number in a pid file is in that list it is a safe bet that your server is still running. |
| 04:50.48 | BulletCatcher | If you really want to be sure that a server is running, connecting with bzadmin will show whether it is really bzfs listening on the port. |
| 04:51.30 | JeffM | there are python, perl, and php scripts that can show you howt o do that |
| 04:59.05 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03JeffM2501 * r99 10/trunk/unit0/InstanceConfig/InstanceMessages.cs: use reflection to pack and unpack any network message. |
| 05:19.58 | BulletCatcher | I don't see how the "socialist millionaire" protocol can protect against a man-in-the-middle attack between two people who do not already have a shared secret. |
| 05:20.00 | BulletCatcher | Anyway, I agree with rejecting the feature request as outside the scope of the game (just like, say, in-game notifications when e-mail is received). |
| 05:23.38 | JeffM | bzflag should include a full copy of emacs! |
| 05:39.57 | BulletCatcher | It would make more sense to implement BZFlag in Emacs LISP. |
| 05:40.19 | JeffM | will it fight spam? |
| 05:40.29 | JeffM | and wear a cape? |
| 05:41.22 | BulletCatcher | There would probably be a way to link the Emacs implementation of Eliza with the chat system. That would be a good April Fools thing. |
| 05:42.42 | JeffM | pipe zork into the chat console |
| 05:50.30 | BulletCatcher | I dug out FORTRAN source for Zork, c. 1980. Scary code. |
| 05:51.58 | JeffM | ahh I knew I heard the name before, yeah he's asked a few other odd things. 1) if we can port BZ to the dreamcast, and 2) how bzflag knows to "not download 'bad code' orviruses" |
| 06:31.38 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03JeffM2501 * r100 10/trunk/unit0/InstanceConfig/InstanceMessages.cs: send the sender back with whoever sent the message. |
| 06:32.20 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03JeffM2501 * r101 10/trunk/unit0/ (3 files in 2 dirs): add simple data handling between instances and manager. |
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| 10:42.31 | blast007 | apeman: when bzfs shuts down properly, it deletes it's own -pidfile. If it crashes it won't, of course, but if you run your bzfs instances via a script, you can have the script delete the pidfile after bzfs terminates (if the file exists). |
| 11:18.57 | apeman | i tested with /shutdownserver, that doesn't delete the pidfile automatically |
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| 12:26.14 | blast007 | ah, guess it doesn't |
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| 15:49.09 | Constitution | do we still support bz on PPC OS X? |
| 15:49.31 | JeffM | did you build a universal or intel only? |
| 15:49.56 | blast007 | Constitution: the package you built said it was universal when Delusional checked it. |
| 15:51.34 | Constitution | it appears to be universal... even runs under rosetta on my Intel mac. I certainly don't have a PPC machine to test it on anymore, though. Does anyone else? |
| 15:52.05 | Constitution | I frankly can't remember how I built it... was a really convoluted process |
| 15:52.06 | JeffM | even if it wasn't the right platform, woudn't the icon still show up? |
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| 15:52.59 | Constitution | if it wasn't the right platform, you would expect the app to show a prohibited sign over it, like in that bug report |
| 15:53.01 | JeffM | and... that sums up his involvement in the project... |
| 15:53.22 | JeffM | ahh, I was not aware that it did that |
| 15:53.35 | JeffM | you should be able to see both bins in the .app folder I would guess |
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| 15:53.58 | Constitution | the binaries are combined into one file with a utility |
| 15:54.21 | Constitution | the current build shows both, though |
| 15:55.01 | JeffM | I thought that it packed them in the .app together, not into a single bin |
| 15:55.10 | JeffM | cus there is a script that says what one to run |
| 15:55.48 | Constitution | the "lipo" utility combines the two executables into one file with support for both architectures |
| 15:55.59 | JeffM | does it spit out a .app? |
| 15:56.03 | Constitution | and then I guess the .app package detects that |
| 15:56.04 | JeffM | or a single binary file? |
| 15:56.15 | Constitution | lipo spits out a binary file |
| 15:56.46 | blast007 | Constitution: why did it show as universal? |
| 15:56.59 | blast007 | oh wait, you said it is.. |
| 15:57.01 | Constitution | because it is? |
| 15:57.03 | Constitution | :P |
| 15:57.16 | blast007 | misread and thought you said there was a prohibited sign over it |
| 15:57.29 | JeffM | I have PPCs macs at work I can check tomorow |
| 15:57.34 | Constitution | someone filed a bug report saying so, on his G5 |
| 15:57.49 | JeffM | yeah and I assigned it to him after it wasn't a bugged download |
| 15:57.54 | JeffM | thanks for looking into it Constitution |
| 15:58.00 | blast007 | if I can get this PC to save a disk image, I'll be going over to a computer lab full of PPC eMacs... |
| 15:58.17 | blast007 | 10.4 systems |
| 15:58.29 | Constitution | yeah if you can, it would be nice to clarify whether the 2.4.0 release actually supports PPC. Aside from that, I see little reason to keep supporting it in future builds, since we can hardly find a machine to test on |
| 15:58.35 | JeffM | yeah that's be a good test |
| 15:58.51 | JeffM | the user said that it did not show the normal icon after unzip |
| 16:03.12 | JeffM | hmm "The same mechanism which is used to select between the custom PowerPC or Intel builds of an application, is also used to select between the 32-bit or 64-bit builds of either PowerPC or Intel architectures." |
| 16:03.23 | JeffM | so it may have 2 platforms but it may not be PPC and intel |
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| 16:08.43 | Constitution | it appears to support both: http://pastebin.com/swKV9PXq |
| 16:09.11 | Constitution | as for the 32 vs 64-bit I'm not sure |
| 16:10.37 | JeffM | probalby not |
| 16:10.45 | JeffM | there is no real point in 64 bit bzflag |
| 16:13.47 | Constitution | anyway, props for cleaning up the tracker :) |
| 16:13.49 | Constitution | ~jeffm++ |
| 16:14.12 | JeffM | it seemed silly to have that sitting there for 4 months assigned to tim :) |
| 16:15.30 | blast007 | I can still go and confirm it works shortly. Finally got this PC to start imaging. ;) |
| 16:15.42 | JeffM | cool, that would be handy |
| 16:16.20 | blast007 | that'd be a great image to have for "low system requirements" as well.. BZFlag running on an 800MHz G4 eMac... |
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| 17:19.17 | blast007 | Constitution / JeffM: BZFlag 2.4.0 works on a PPC mac |
| 17:19.54 | blast007 | 1.25GHz with a Radeon 9200, and runs quite well, actually.. was getting around 40 or 50 FPS at highest quality (though I had shadows/lighting turned off) |
| 17:20.21 | blast007 | though I did notice the vertical mouse movement wasn't quite lined up right |
| 17:21.27 | blast007 | to stop moving forward/backwards, I had to position the mouse a bit higher than the center mouse box. |
| 17:21.58 | blast007 | dunno if that's a mac issue in general, a PPC issue, or a 10.4 issue |
| 17:22.18 | blast007 | oh, and the icon was just fine after unzipping. |
| 17:48.51 | JeffM | then that guy keeps getting a bad download |
| 17:55.39 | JeffM | how many revisions ago did apple drop ppc support? |
| 17:57.56 | JeffM | wow apple only kept PPC around for ONE more OS release |
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| 17:58.19 | JeffM | intel was added in the middle of 10.4, and 10.5 was the last to support PPC |
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| 20:01.17 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://wiki.BZFlag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || Please test SVN trunk for 2.4.2 release so we can have a debian package |
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| 21:38.35 | ts3d | What files contain the DeadReckoning code? |
| 21:42.05 | blast007 | you don't have grep? |
| 21:42.29 | ts3d | not on windows |
| 21:42.46 | blast007 | I do ;) |
| 21:43.10 | blast007 | anyways, use the search function in Visual C++ |
| 21:43.12 | ts3d | I did some cleaning of my utilities bin folder recently :) |
| 21:43.36 | ts3d | Players and shots are the only dynamic entities correct? |
| 21:44.00 | blast007 | flags? |
| 21:44.16 | blast007 | and are you counting things that affect the tanks? |
| 21:44.28 | blast007 | cus if so, then physics drivers would apply as well |
| 21:45.00 | blast007 | or are you referring only to things that DR works with? |
| 21:45.34 | ts3d | DR only |
| 21:46.03 | blast007 | then just tanks, maybe |
| 21:46.22 | blast007 | dunno if it would do anything for shots, since they're already pre-computed |
| 21:47.15 | blast007 | not my area of familiarity though |
| 21:48.41 | apeman | DR is where tanks are going, whats it got to do with shots |
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| 22:26.53 | Gaming4JC | JeffM - I don't consider the proposal about chat security "laughable" if nothing else removing the admin whisper viewing plugin can be done on default builds as was proposed by someone else earlier last evening. :\ |
| 22:27.19 | Gaming4JC | Server owners can still see the logs but not random OPs, so it should be better than nothing. |
| 22:29.08 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, it is outside the scope of what the project is for |
| 22:29.15 | JeffM | it is not a secure chat system |
| 22:29.29 | JeffM | you should not be using a video game to talk about senstive things. |
| 22:29.30 | Gaming4JC | so why is logging required regardless? |
| 22:29.34 | JeffM | it isn't |
| 22:29.43 | JeffM | the game does not log by default |
| 22:29.44 | Gaming4JC | it's on by default |
| 22:29.47 | JeffM | nope |
| 22:30.13 | JeffM | logdetail and piping is required for the server to save logs |
| 22:30.26 | Gaming4JC | hmm when I get the chance I'll inspect the code myself, right now I'm too busy IRL but I'll take your word for it |
| 22:30.39 | Gaming4JC | seems like every server has it enabled that I've visited. |
| 22:30.39 | JeffM | NO plugins are loaded by default |
| 22:30.44 | Gaming4JC | :P |
| 22:30.45 | JeffM | so I have no dea what you are illuding to |
| 22:31.27 | JeffM | I'm not even sure what this "admin whisper" plugin you talk about is |
| 22:32.17 | Gaming4JC | they are able to view whispered message plugins between players, all I know currently. |
| 22:32.32 | JeffM | we do not control how people use our software |
| 22:32.33 | Gaming4JC | whispered messages (presumably by plugin) * |
| 22:32.41 | JeffM | you are guessing about a LOT of things |
| 22:32.53 | JeffM | as far as I know, that is not a feature of the default software |
| 22:33.01 | JeffM | I could see how someone could make a plugin to do that |
| 22:33.11 | JeffM | and there are ways to configure the server to log |
| 22:33.36 | Gaming4JC | ok then, my only suggestion was some options for the client to also have more control. Not the server. |
| 22:33.39 | JeffM | but again, it is not in our scope to provide you with a cryptographicly secure communications link in the middle of a video game. |
| 22:33.57 | JeffM | does your browser have controll over what a web server it connects to does? |
| 22:34.05 | JeffM | you chose to connect to that server |
| 22:34.13 | Gaming4JC | yes actually, I can choose what to give each website |
| 22:34.16 | JeffM | if it dosn't suit your needs, you can choose to connect elsewhere |
| 22:34.20 | Gaming4JC | (modified firefox) :) |
| 22:34.21 | JeffM | exactly |
| 22:34.23 | JeffM | same with bzflag |
| 22:34.27 | JeffM | you can choose what to send |
| 22:34.30 | JeffM | not what it does with it |
| 22:34.39 | JeffM | if you want to modify bzflag, please do so |
| 22:34.41 | JeffM | you have the source. |
| 22:35.00 | JeffM | we have options to disalble chat |
| 22:35.01 | Gaming4JC | ok |
| 22:35.09 | JeffM | so far that's been perfectly fine |
| 22:36.04 | JeffM | the laughable part is that bzflag can't even maintain a release schedule, or a stable network simulation, and you are asking for a secure crypto channel for chat in a video game. |
| 22:36.42 | JeffM | should I make it play movies too? or open excell spreasheets? |
| 22:36.50 | Gaming4JC | sure ;) |
| 22:37.00 | JeffM | riiighhhttt.... |
| 22:37.01 | Gaming4JC | you should just get a bounty going and hire coders |
| 22:37.08 | JeffM | with what money? |
| 22:37.14 | JeffM | we have no orginsation to pay them from |
| 22:37.26 | Gaming4JC | donations/bitcoin whatever. many other projects doing it |
| 22:37.40 | JeffM | yes and they are much better organised and have maintainers that are active. |
| 22:37.54 | JeffM | our codebase is not setup for these kinds of things |
| 22:37.59 | JeffM | have you ever looked at it? |
| 22:38.13 | Gaming4JC | I haven't actually, other than compiling it like two years ago |
| 22:38.27 | Gaming4JC | so I've not kept up with any recent changes |
| 22:38.33 | JeffM | there haven't been any |
| 22:38.34 | Gaming4JC | but it seemed fairly active at the time |
| 22:38.37 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:38.48 | Gaming4JC | well then, that is a problem :P |
| 22:38.59 | JeffM | bzflag is in decline, has been for years |
| 22:39.19 | Gaming4JC | you need to setup a donation system and hire coders, and figure out who is the "maintainer" since no one is doing it. Should solve most of the problem |
| 22:39.33 | JeffM | have you ever managed a software project? |
| 22:39.45 | JeffM | we know who the maintaner is, the guy who owns the copyright |
| 22:39.59 | Gaming4JC | I've watched others maintain software and worked on teams |
| 22:40.10 | Gaming4JC | BZFlag is copyrighted? |
| 22:40.13 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:40.18 | JeffM | how else could it be licensed? |
| 22:40.29 | JeffM | all works are copyright by someone |
| 22:40.32 | Gaming4JC | GPL with no trademark. Just like IceCat |
| 22:40.37 | JeffM | nope |
| 22:40.41 | JeffM | GPL is a licnese |
| 22:40.49 | JeffM | a copyright holder has to GRANT that licnese to users |
| 22:40.59 | Gaming4JC | it's not a single owner if it's GPL usually |
| 22:41.02 | JeffM | bzflag is owned, the owner is just kind enough to let anyone do whatever they want with it |
| 22:41.10 | JeffM | you know little of copyright it seems |
| 22:41.15 | Gaming4JC | I spend plenty of time over at #fsf |
| 22:41.33 | JeffM | yeah and they would have you belive that the GPL shoots rainbows out it's butt :) |
| 22:41.33 | Gaming4JC | technically if an item is GPL I can edit it and claim it as my fork |
| 22:41.51 | JeffM | yes, but you can NOT claim copyright on the parts you licnesed ffrom others |
| 22:42.00 | JeffM | you still must follow the origonal owners license |
| 22:42.03 | JeffM | you can not relicense it |
| 22:42.05 | JeffM | so you do not own it |
| 22:42.14 | JeffM | you can do what you want, but you don't have copyright on that code. |
| 22:42.27 | JeffM | you could not relicense it to a closed soruce project for instance. |
| 22:42.35 | JeffM | so it's highly permisive, tha'ts why it's good |
| 22:42.41 | Gaming4JC | gotcha, that's still not as bad as full blown copyright which is I cannot call another project BZFlag and all the trademarks that go with it |
| 22:42.43 | JeffM | but it isnot the same as saying it's public domain |
| 22:42.57 | Gaming4JC | of course |
| 22:42.57 | JeffM | trademark has nothing to do with copyright |
| 22:43.13 | JeffM | you trademark a logo |
| 22:43.14 | Gaming4JC | GPL forces one to give the code freely and that code must remain free |
| 22:43.16 | JeffM | you copyright a work |
| 22:43.23 | Gaming4JC | GPL is a copyleft |
| 22:43.32 | JeffM | yes, but the people that use it do not have copyright |
| 22:43.42 | JeffM | I am aware of the GPL and it's limitations. |
| 22:43.47 | Gaming4JC | kk |
| 22:44.08 | JeffM | the fact that the work IS copyrighted is the only thing that allows the GPL to be enforced |
| 22:44.29 | JeffM | the copyright holder has to be the one to bring a suit against license violators. |
| 22:44.39 | JeffM | so to do that they must assert ownership of the origonal work |
| 22:44.42 | Gaming4JC | true I've read wikipedia about that |
| 22:44.50 | Gaming4JC | GPL can stand up in courts |
| 22:44.51 | JeffM | and wikipedia is always right |
| 22:44.59 | Gaming4JC | most of the time if it has cited sources |
| 22:45.00 | JeffM | it has in the past, it depends on how people use it |
| 22:45.22 | JeffM | the GPL is just one of many tools available to a copyright holder to controll how a work is used. |
| 22:45.58 | apeman | gaming is probably talking about the adminListener plugin where all copy of messages is also sent to admins in-game |
| 22:46.17 | JeffM | that is not a plugin we maintain |
| 22:46.23 | ts3d | Jeff: Where'd you get the cubemap for Unit0? |
| 22:46.31 | JeffM | ts3d, the skybox? |
| 22:46.36 | ts3d | Yep |
| 22:46.49 | JeffM | I don't remember, some site that had quake skymaps |
| 22:46.53 | JeffM | why? |
| 22:47.09 | ts3d | I need one |
| 22:47.13 | JeffM | googlez |
| 22:47.15 | Gaming4JC | so getting back on topic, Tim Rikers is MIA? |
| 22:47.26 | JeffM | yes and no, he has other things to do it seems |
| 22:47.49 | JeffM | and I agree with you on what to do to make a sucsessful project |
| 22:47.52 | ts3d | Yeah, I found a few. I liked yours though :) wanted a similar one, although in high resolution |
| 22:48.06 | JeffM | ts3d, get bryce and render one up |
| 22:48.18 | *** join/#bzflag dfsdtg (484ad6fa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.74.214.250) |
| 22:48.20 | Gaming4JC | does anyone else have write access to the main SVN trunk? |
| 22:48.28 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, I just don't feel that it is best to try and force this project into that |
| 22:48.35 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, yeah all developers |
| 22:48.47 | JeffM | blast007 and myself are also project admins |
| 22:48.51 | Gaming4JC | so then you could schedule your own releases without Tim Rikers being available. |
| 22:48.54 | ts3d | Daz3D....bah They were giving it away free a couple months ago...I didn't take advantage |
| 22:48.59 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, dude, we do that already |
| 22:49.08 | JeffM | he hasn't been part of a release in years |
| 22:49.23 | JeffM | you really should take the time to undertand how a project works before you offer ways to fix it ;) |
| 22:49.35 | Gaming4JC | in that case you are your own maintainer and can go to Gun.io right now and hire someone :) |
| 22:49.42 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, nope |
| 22:49.50 | Gaming4JC | I could throw in $25 for first bounty. |
| 22:50.04 | JeffM | there is this little thing called "taxes" |
| 22:50.28 | JeffM | when you hire an employee you have to do things a specific way |
| 22:50.41 | JeffM | the other choice is contractor, and then you have to do things a differnet way |
| 22:50.48 | JeffM | and you have to have some entity that is the payor |
| 22:51.03 | Gaming4JC | you don't have to hire as an organization either, but I am aware of various tax laws. |
| 22:51.24 | JeffM | it is safer and easier to hire as some form of corporation |
| 22:51.36 | JeffM | but really currently, there ain't a lot of players, and aint' a lot of development interest |
| 22:52.02 | JeffM | so not many people have felt it is worth it for this proiejct |
| 22:52.16 | JeffM | personaly I am trying to get a new codebase and proejct setup that is more stable |
| 22:52.25 | JeffM | and has a funding source for bounties |
| 22:52.30 | Gaming4JC | as a free project forming a 501C3 seems to be the standard, but if you're low on maintainers and all that I can understand the problem... |
| 22:52.33 | JeffM | then it will have a lot of longetivty |
| 22:52.37 | Gaming4JC | yes |
| 22:52.48 | JeffM | how many people do you think play bzflag? |
| 22:53.05 | Gaming4JC | 500 or more a month I would imagine |
| 22:53.13 | JeffM | yeah not many |
| 22:53.20 | JeffM | how many do you think are playing right now? |
| 22:53.33 | Gaming4JC | not sure I haven't seen the bzflag stats website in awhile |
| 22:53.35 | Gaming4JC | 20? |
| 22:53.39 | JeffM | 47 |
| 22:53.44 | JeffM | we rarely get over 100 people at a time |
| 22:53.48 | Gaming4JC | not too bad, most people are doing homework this time of day |
| 22:53.57 | Gaming4JC | but granted Minecraft pushes thousands an hour |
| 22:54.02 | JeffM | actualy this should be prime time for europe |
| 22:54.17 | JeffM | most other games have at least tens of thousands of players |
| 22:54.38 | JeffM | for monitization you can hope for a conversion rate of about 1-2% of your players |
| 22:54.47 | JeffM | at 500 people that's 5-10 |
| 22:54.53 | JeffM | that ain't going to do much |
| 22:55.02 | Gaming4JC | eh, unless they are really wealthy donors |
| 22:55.02 | Gaming4JC | :P |
| 22:55.12 | JeffM | you can't count on that for longevity |
| 22:55.29 | JeffM | also with out an org, you end up having to give the money to a single person and hope they do the right thing with it |
| 22:55.41 | JeffM | I mean we have donations now |
| 22:55.46 | JeffM | have had them for over a decade |
| 22:55.54 | Gaming4JC | and this goes to... ? |
| 22:55.56 | JeffM | Tim |
| 22:56.01 | JeffM | he uses to pay the dns bill |
| 22:56.02 | Gaming4JC | heh |
| 22:56.05 | JeffM | it just about covers that |
| 22:56.12 | JeffM | so less then 30$ a year |
| 22:56.19 | Gaming4JC | dang |
| 22:56.22 | Gaming4JC | that's pathetic |
| 22:56.29 | JeffM | not all problems are solved by "throwing money at it" |
| 22:56.48 | JeffM | it can often make it worse if there is not a system in place to use that money efficiently |
| 22:57.14 | JeffM | I would like to see a system where we offer an optional 3-5$ a month subscription to the project |
| 22:57.21 | JeffM | and that gets you access to a members only server |
| 22:57.26 | JeffM | and a members only in game tag |
| 22:57.32 | JeffM | and maybe a t-shirt once a year |
| 22:57.38 | Gaming4JC | that's a good possibility |
| 22:57.52 | Gaming4JC | or I can launch a CreativeCommons3.0 campaign for you all "bzflagisdying.com" or "savebzflag.org" - post YouTube videos of starving developers :3 |
| 22:57.57 | JeffM | I'd also charge a yearly fee for setting up a league, and then host the leauge site for them |
| 22:57.58 | Gaming4JC | but that's not as good as your idea. |
| 22:58.14 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, why so more people can come, see our graphcis then leave? |
| 22:58.29 | JeffM | thats what they do when they see our screenshots |
| 22:58.36 | JeffM | bzflag is not friendly to a new user |
| 22:58.40 | Gaming4JC | that graphics are pretty good, they look old school, put a voxel renderer in it and it's even better |
| 22:58.43 | Gaming4JC | the* |
| 22:58.54 | JeffM | my new projet actualy uses a voxel render |
| 22:59.08 | JeffM | bzflag was never designed for the internet |
| 22:59.18 | JeffM | to play well you ahve to compensate for a player's lag when you shoot |
| 22:59.23 | Gaming4JC | BZFlag was based on Atari Battle Zone so anyone who played that wouldn't have a problem with the controls |
| 22:59.29 | Gaming4JC | true |
| 22:59.31 | JeffM | no it wasn't |
| 22:59.39 | Gaming4JC | no? It reminds me of it |
| 22:59.42 | Gaming4JC | lol |
| 22:59.42 | JeffM | I don't see 2 joysticks in bzflag |
| 22:59.45 | JeffM | yes it was inspired by it |
| 22:59.47 | Gaming4JC | I have joysticks |
| 22:59.50 | Gaming4JC | just need a little calibration |
| 22:59.57 | JeffM | you can't use them like battlezone did |
| 23:00.03 | JeffM | did you ever PLAY battlezone? |
| 23:00.08 | JeffM | it plays nothing like bzflag |
| 23:00.09 | Gaming4JC | yeah I still have it actually |
| 23:00.23 | JeffM | it was an arcade game, you have an arcade cabinet? |
| 23:00.24 | Gaming4JC | you couldn't jump and have to move it back and forth per tread |
| 23:00.35 | Gaming4JC | Battle Zone 2600 was on atari |
| 23:00.45 | JeffM | no, it was an arcade game first |
| 23:00.48 | Gaming4JC | gets pics |
| 23:00.53 | JeffM | then ported.. badly to the 2600 |
| 23:01.03 | Gaming4JC | well, I never saw the arcade |
| 23:01.08 | JeffM | I gathered |
| 23:01.18 | JeffM | possibly before your time :) |
| 23:01.20 | Gaming4JC | atari one was neat just the same |
| 23:01.31 | JeffM | it was simplified from the arcade one |
| 23:01.40 | JeffM | but still, we have very bad network support |
| 23:01.43 | JeffM | no cheat prevention |
| 23:02.04 | JeffM | no in game help promts, and a conflicting UI |
| 23:02.17 | JeffM | I mean you start the game, we show you a cursor and some big text buttons |
| 23:02.24 | JeffM | but you can't click on any of the buttons? |
| 23:02.27 | JeffM | WTF? |
| 23:02.45 | Gaming4JC | I use keyboard keys by default on my games |
| 23:02.51 | JeffM | you are a minority |
| 23:02.52 | Gaming4JC | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%29#Ports_and_clones (I see what you mean now) ;P |
| 23:03.18 | Gaming4JC | Atari 2600 port wasn't as good, underwhich case I missed out on the legend |
| 23:03.23 | JeffM | from a GUI standpoint, if you have an ARROW cursor you use it for clicking on things, that is what the rest of the OS does. |
| 23:03.35 | JeffM | that's what the users have been trained to do |
| 23:03.58 | Gaming4JC | but aren't most of the clients coming from Linux/MacOSX anyway? |
| 23:04.03 | JeffM | HAHAH |
| 23:04.05 | JeffM | god no |
| 23:04.14 | JeffM | its like half windows |
| 23:04.19 | JeffM | then OSX, then linux |
| 23:04.22 | Gaming4JC | tell them to stop using Windows, problem solved. lol |
| 23:04.29 | Gaming4JC | most of the people I know of are Mac users |
| 23:04.38 | JeffM | actualy the windows version is one of the most stable platforms we have |
| 23:04.43 | JeffM | OSX is the least stable |
| 23:04.48 | Gaming4JC | heh |
| 23:05.07 | JeffM | with any game you are going to get a lot of windows players |
| 23:05.18 | Gaming4JC | Wintendo... :P |
| 23:05.19 | JeffM | it just the more prolific platform |
| 23:05.52 | JeffM | moc it all you want, it's a nicer company then apple, at least it has open source programs |
| 23:05.56 | Gaming4JC | well if the game gets ported to a decent codebase you can also gain a lot of users on android, psp/ps3 and all that |
| 23:06.10 | Gaming4JC | you really want to get into the android market, that's where the money is :) |
| 23:06.21 | JeffM | PSP and ps3 do not allow open source games |
| 23:06.31 | Gaming4JC | those android tablets people pay money for just to pay more money for apps |
| 23:06.35 | JeffM | heh, the money is in the apple app store |
| 23:06.48 | JeffM | android is tied to java |
| 23:06.50 | Gaming4JC | apple is crappy and slowly dying |
| 23:07.01 | JeffM | seriously? |
| 23:07.10 | JeffM | what kind of rose tinted glasses do you view the world though? |
| 23:07.16 | Gaming4JC | I'm convincing all of my friends to not buy apple and once they've tried a tablet stick with droid ;) |
| 23:07.19 | JeffM | they have 100 BILION $ in cash |
| 23:07.31 | JeffM | you are not making a dent man |
| 23:07.32 | Gaming4JC | keep in mind steve jobs died, we have yet to see if they can maintain it |
| 23:07.45 | Gaming4JC | we're talking about their Iphones and IPads |
| 23:07.46 | JeffM | the ipad 3 sold more then anything else in the company history |
| 23:08.03 | JeffM | do you just pull ideas from thin air and state them as fact? |
| 23:08.26 | Gaming4JC | gets his sources |
| 23:08.47 | JeffM | so far you have woefully misonformed about evertyhing you have said here today |
| 23:08.57 | ts3d | ^) |
| 23:08.59 | JeffM | but still, we are not interested in an mobile platform |
| 23:09.22 | JeffM | I am looking at doing a cross platform single deliverable for windows, linux, and OSX |
| 23:09.25 | JeffM | that is self updating |
| 23:09.36 | JeffM | so we don't have to do releases |
| 23:09.42 | JeffM | we can just push out features as they are ready |
| 23:10.25 | Gaming4JC | all the news articles I read regarding "IPad Killer" on a google search I suppose |
| 23:10.52 | JeffM | amazon has the closest thing in market share to a single platform to go up gainst iOS |
| 23:10.58 | ts3d | Too bad it's C#. ;) That reminds me your lastest changes stoped unit0 from working |
| 23:11.04 | JeffM | ts3d, probably |
| 23:11.17 | JeffM | ts3d, what you' rather have java and closed source runtimes? |
| 23:11.24 | JeffM | no thank you |
| 23:11.53 | ts3d | Haskell, Haskell everywher! |
| 23:11.56 | JeffM | I make no claims that my current code is stable |
| 23:12.00 | JeffM | shuddap ;) |
| 23:12.04 | Gaming4JC | both Kindle and Android have claimed to be killing it, and everyone I speak with (not Mac users) agree with me, so go figure ;) |
| 23:12.05 | Gaming4JC | regarding Java |
| 23:12.08 | Gaming4JC | OpenJDK? |
| 23:12.17 | JeffM | that's s not the jre |
| 23:12.22 | JeffM | thats the development kit |
| 23:12.28 | JeffM | the jre is still closed from sun |
| 23:12.44 | ts3d | 4JC: Step outside your bubble. |
| 23:13.00 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, yeah it's a big world out there, experience it |
| 23:13.12 | JeffM | you can't stay home all the time |
| 23:13.20 | Gaming4JC | Java works fine on my Trisquel |
| 23:13.26 | JeffM | good for it |
| 23:13.26 | Gaming4JC | and it has no non-free parts |
| 23:14.16 | JeffM | heck some of the new .net stuff was even released under the apache licnense |
| 23:14.30 | JeffM | and MS provides a git repo to it's internal release candidate |
| 23:14.55 | ts3d | If they would only hurry up with C++11 |
| 23:15.23 | JeffM | ts3d, the namespaces are complete in VC10 |
| 23:16.07 | JeffM | they had the code in both the tr1 and std namespaces |
| 23:16.28 | Gaming4JC | the world is full of Mac and OSX, I won't rest until they are dead. :) |
| 23:16.41 | JeffM | Gaming4JC, ok have fun in your dream world |
| 23:16.42 | Gaming4JC | and don't forget Windows |
| 23:16.57 | Gaming4JC | will do |
| 23:17.10 | Gaming4JC | just for the record, being smart with potential donors is rude too. ;) |
| 23:17.24 | Gaming4JC | I'll go back to my SuperTuxKart and other channels now |
| 23:17.25 | Gaming4JC | be seeing you. |
| 23:17.33 | JeffM | just for the record, coming in and telling people how to change thing you dont' unerstand, is rude |
| 23:17.54 | JeffM | oh noes... we lost his 25$ what everz will we do? |
| 23:19.19 | JeffM | ts3d, was it just the game instance that would not build? |
| 23:19.26 | JeffM | or did the client or editor not run? |
| 23:19.44 | ts3d | client |
| 23:20.07 | JeffM | runs for me |
| 23:20.11 | JeffM | what does it do for you? |
| 23:20.24 | ts3d | I have tried the editor, just browsing the code base looking at how you're doing things |
| 23:20.26 | ts3d | haven't* |
| 23:21.18 | JeffM | the editor dosn't do much other then let you define blocksets |
| 23:21.34 | JeffM | I just needed something to manipulate the structure with |
| 23:21.50 | ts3d | Hmm. It's running now. It threw an exception earlier. |
| 23:22.08 | JeffM | have you tried it on linux or OSX? |
| 23:22.35 | ts3d | No. I haven't booted up linux in a while |
| 23:24.59 | ts3d | Editor Resource Path? |
| 23:25.12 | JeffM | where da pictures at! |
| 23:25.21 | JeffM | base_data |
| 23:26.51 | ts3d | Skybox has no bottom! |
| 23:26.59 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:27.09 | JeffM | thats what the ground is for :) |
| 23:27.56 | ts3d | Voxels.......you should use marching cubes |
| 23:28.15 | JeffM | no I should use portals |
| 23:28.17 | ts3d | Could make for some interesting dynamic maps |
| 23:28.19 | JeffM | and cells |
| 23:28.29 | JeffM | it's just a test app |
| 23:28.38 | JeffM | voxels are reasy to render and easy to collide against |
| 23:29.14 | ts3d | How do I move around in the editor. I figured out how to pan |
| 23:29.32 | JeffM | maybe alt or shift and right drag |
| 23:29.36 | JeffM | or the wheel |
| 23:29.37 | JeffM | I don't remember |
| 23:30.46 | ts3d | Got it. What about up and down :) |
| 23:30.57 | JeffM | the other modifyer maybe |
| 23:50.48 | *** join/#bzflag Delusional (~delusiona@pool-96-236-228-70.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 23:54.58 | JeffM | ts3d, what don't you like about C#? |
| 23:56.20 | ts3d | I was onyl trying to rustle your jimmies. I don't have an experience with C# |
| 23:56.27 | ts3d | only* |
| 23:56.30 | JeffM | ok |
| 23:57.00 | JeffM | I've been trying to see if anyone who actualy dosn't like it has a rason othern the who started it |