| 00:16.08 | *** part/#bzflag Oejet (~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet) |
| 01:03.52 | *** part/#bzflag Propane_Tank (~Propane_T@host-224-48-230-24.midco.net) |
| 15:01.04 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 15:01.04 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://wiki.BZFlag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || Please test SVN trunk for 2.4.2 release so we can have a debian package |
| 15:01.04 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 15:21.38 | brad | someone else sent the original msg to hundreds of ppl |
| 15:21.45 | joevano | TimRiker: not sure who he is... only 7 posts on the forum, not seeing any messages from him on my end |
| 15:22.02 | brad | he was advertising a league event |
| 15:22.15 | brad | 64bit simply rep5lied7 to that msg |
| 15:22.19 | brad | replied* |
| 15:23.04 | brad | it might have been to all peopl5e in a certain group |
| 15:23.42 | blast007 | could someone send me a PM on the forum quick? want to check the email notification. |
| 15:23.51 | brad | sure |
| 15:24.27 | brad | sent |
| 15:26.30 | blast007 | thx |
| 15:29.52 | blast007 | TimRiker: perhaps that will fix the bounce emails. I changed the email to one not on bzflag.bz. |
| 15:37.48 | *** part/#bzflag Oejet (~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet) |
| 16:05.49 | BulletCatcher | There are still 8 messages in the mail queue that will probably bounce permanently in a couple of days. Don't panic. |
| 16:09.31 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@69.36.85.131) |
| 16:09.31 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501) |
| 16:09.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ |
| 16:27.39 | TimRiker | blast007, bounces seem to go to www-data@bzflag.org which end up in my box. |
| 16:28.06 | TimRiker | also the nightly backup cronjob to root@bzflag.org goes to me. |
| 16:29.11 | TimRiker | there were 140 bounce messages this morning. |
| 16:30.05 | blast007 | dunno where it'd be getting www-data@bzflag.org |
| 16:30.32 | TimRiker | presumably that's the user the web server runs as |
| 16:30.33 | blast007 | the messages for PM notifications had previously shown bzbbadmin@bzflag.bz |
| 16:31.15 | blast007 | ah, looking at the return path in the email headers does show www-data@bzflag.org |
| 16:31.46 | blast007 | the Reply-To was set to bzbbadmin@bzflag.org, though |
| 16:31.52 | TimRiker | nods. the from does show bzadmin@bzflag.bz |
| 16:32.41 | blast007 | guess I'll have to see if there's a way to override the return-path. |
| 16:32.51 | TimRiker | is there anyway to feed them back info phpbb so it marks those emails as unreachable? |
| 16:33.13 | blast007 | not really |
| 16:34.09 | BulletCatcher | We could adjust those account preferences to not send e-mail when a PM is received. |
| 16:34.23 | blast007 | true, but that's rather time consuming |
| 16:34.34 | blast007 | better to just fix where it bounces to |
| 16:34.42 | BulletCatcher | And then send a PM telling them to fix their e-mail address. |
| 16:34.57 | BulletCatcher | That *is* labor intensive, though. |
| 16:35.02 | TimRiker | I like the email notification. (I think it's lame that it does not include the PM itself, but that's a different issue) |
| 16:35.45 | TimRiker | mailman and other list software handles the bounces itself and deactivates uses on multiple bounces. |
| 16:35.54 | TimRiker | it would be nice if phpbb would do that too. |
| 16:36.12 | TimRiker | s/uses/users/ |
| 16:36.15 | blast007 | http://tracker.phpbb.com/browse/PHPBB3-10027 |
| 16:38.19 | TimRiker | nods. I don't understand why apps try to run command line tools to send email. why not just connect to localhost:smtp and send there? no mess, no fuss, just path issues. ah well. |
| 16:38.37 | TimRiker | s/just/no/ |
| 16:40.16 | blast007 | TimRiker: I think php's mail() function handles that. |
| 16:40.27 | JeffM | or pear if they call that |
| 16:40.47 | TimRiker | the ticket was talking about -f options on the command line. |
| 16:41.06 | JeffM | I've always had to use pear from php to connect to an smtp server over ssl |
| 16:42.02 | TimRiker | I'd recommend hitting localhost over non-ssl. then let the local server figure out how to send email to the outside world. |
| 16:42.24 | JeffM | our IT does not want local machines to send mail in case they get compromized |
| 16:42.33 | BulletCatcher | Not all hosts have something listening on locahost:smtp. |
| 16:42.37 | JeffM | so they are locked down |
| 16:42.41 | JeffM | yeah |
| 16:42.42 | TimRiker | security by obscurity is not security at all. |
| 16:43.04 | JeffM | well that' what the allowed hosts on the one machine that can send mail is for :) |
| 16:43.15 | JeffM | our SMTP server knows who can send mail from what |
| 16:43.19 | JeffM | with what certs |
| 16:43.31 | JeffM | or that's what they tell me every time I try to just call mail() |
| 16:43.43 | JeffM | that and mail can't do attachements IIRC |
| 16:43.58 | JeffM | different groups confugure servers differently I guess |
| 16:44.28 | JeffM | I know we have a number of issues with third party web developers having security holes, so I guess they lock the local machines down pretty tight |
| 16:45.22 | TimRiker | which won't really help if the security holes are still there... ah well. |
| 16:45.51 | JeffM | well they fight to get them fixed |
| 16:46.07 | JeffM | I thihnk they just want to minimize damage while they test it out |
| 16:46.12 | blast007 | TimRiker: right, but PHP handles it. The application itself isn't calling a CLI tool. The 'mail' function has a paramater that can include additional paramaters, like -f. |
| 16:46.21 | TimRiker | if it's not one thing it's another. I got a meeting request today about moving some wiki content into a "content management system". |
| 16:46.35 | JeffM | yeah you just ask a lib to send mail |
| 16:46.38 | JeffM | then it does it |
| 16:48.05 | BulletCatcher | It isn't so much security through obscurity, but through inconvenience (of not supporting a particular API). |
| 16:48.06 | BulletCatcher | Think of Linux as providing security through the inconvenience of not being Windows (and all of the baggage that comes with it). :-) |
| 16:48.21 | TimRiker | relaxes and places his hand on his https://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/science/964e/ |
| 16:49.00 | JeffM | 1988 called, it want's it's desk toy back ;) |
| 16:49.15 | TimRiker | well, too bad. it can't have it. |
| 16:49.54 | TimRiker | 1970 already took my lava lamp and hasn't brought it back. |
| 16:49.59 | JeffM | ever put a penny on it then touch it? |
| 16:50.12 | TimRiker | looks for a penny.. |
| 16:50.58 | JeffM | the arc will burn thru paper if you put the penny under the paper |
| 16:51.35 | TimRiker | can't get it to ark. too small a charge perhaps? |
| 16:51.58 | JeffM | I've always been able to do it by just holding my finger JUST above the penny |
| 16:52.13 | blast007 | with a USB one? |
| 16:52.22 | JeffM | oh no, not a USB one |
| 16:52.26 | TimRiker | yeah, don't think the usb one picks up enough. |
| 16:52.26 | JeffM | yeah probalby not enough umph |
| 16:52.27 | blast007 | ;) |
| 16:52.38 | JeffM | needs more powwa |
| 16:52.48 | TimRiker | need more cowbell |
| 16:52.57 | JeffM | cowbell == power |
| 16:53.06 | TimRiker | xactly |
| 16:54.12 | JeffM | blast007, I don't think I can use javascript :( |
| 16:54.43 | blast007 | hmm? |
| 16:54.57 | JeffM | it requires a native compiled component |
| 16:55.02 | blast007 | ah, for that |
| 16:55.08 | JeffM | then wraps that in managed |
| 16:55.09 | JeffM | yeah |
| 16:55.37 | JeffM | python and ruby are the only things I can find that are pure managed |
| 16:55.42 | JeffM | well or lolcode |
| 16:55.42 | blast007 | which lib were you looking at? |
| 16:55.45 | blast007 | heh |
| 16:56.09 | JeffM | jint |
| 16:56.21 | blast007 | JeffM: gnu-sense was referring to the stats site logo, I think. |
| 16:56.22 | JeffM | it wants to use antlr |
| 16:56.30 | JeffM | blast007, ahh |
| 16:57.36 | JeffM | hmm slow week, 74 |
| 16:58.20 | blast007 | sucks about JS, but maybe it'll give me a better reason to learn Python ;) |
| 16:58.26 | blast007 | or lolcode |
| 16:58.33 | JeffM | ruby looked wierd |
| 16:58.46 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * r107 10/trunk/unit0/ (5 files in 4 dirs): move server scripting into a subdir so we can have the server know about client scripts to host them if needed. |
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| 20:22.39 | allejo | ah blast007, bring down people's (fangup) spirit one comment at a time |
| 20:25.35 | blast007 | heh |
| 20:41.26 | JeffM | what's with the sudden influx of kids? |
| 20:42.08 | blast007 | spring break? |
| 20:42.22 | JeffM | prolly |
| 21:42.03 | *** join/#bzflag Delusional (~delusiona@unaffiliated/delusional) |
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| 23:07.52 | *** join/#bzflag ducktape (475c6d0a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.92.109.10) |
| 23:07.57 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * r108 10/trunk/unit0/ (9 files in 5 dirs): |
| 23:07.57 | CIA-104 | opencombat: Use the hail magic to ensure protcoll support. |
| 23:07.57 | CIA-104 | opencombat: accept option setting and store them with the player data. |
| 23:08.51 | ducktape | blast you around? |
| 23:09.04 | blast007 | yes |
| 23:09.12 | ducktape | can you help me real quick? |
| 23:09.41 | blast007 | sure |
| 23:10.41 | CIA-104 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * r109 10/trunk/unit0/ (7 files in 3 dirs): |
| 23:10.41 | CIA-104 | opencombat: remove plugins and replace with scripting. |
| 23:10.41 | CIA-104 | opencombat: connect to server from client with threaded message processor. |
| 23:10.54 | ducktape | i got 2.4 a few weeks ago but now im trying to get it on my dads desktop, its running linux mint 12 (which im unfamilure with) and i cant get it to compile |
| 23:11.00 | ducktape | when i run make i get this error: |
| 23:11.16 | ducktape | make[2]: Entering directory `/home/zach/bzflag-2.4.0/src/common' source='AccessList.cxx' object='AccessList.lo' libtool=yes \ DEPDIR=.deps depmode=none /bin/bash ../../misc/depcomp \ /bin/bash ../../libtool --silent --tag=CXX --silent --mode=compile g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../include -DINSTALL_DATA_DIR=\"/usr/local/share/bzflag\" -I../../src/other/curl/include -c -o AccessList.lo AccessList.cxx ../../libtool: line 1153: |
| 23:11.56 | ducktape | make[2]: *** [AccessList.lo] Error 1 make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/zach/bzflag-2.4.0/src/common' make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/zach/bzflag-2.4.0/src' make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 |
| 23:12.23 | JeffM | is that the code from the tarbal or from svn? |
| 23:12.40 | ducktape | svn |
| 23:13.13 | JeffM | it's odd, I don't see the actual error in there, just a line number. |
| 23:13.39 | JeffM | you have all the dependencies and configure said you were going to build ok? |
| 23:13.41 | blast007 | is that the entire output from the end of the build? |
| 23:13.55 | JeffM | I bet there were lines above that |
| 23:13.56 | blast007 | wonders if IRC cut off the error |
| 23:14.01 | JeffM | it could have |
| 23:14.04 | ducktape | thats what i was saying. yeah configure ran smooth as silk |
| 23:14.05 | JeffM | pastebin as much as you can |
| 23:14.06 | blast007 | ducktape: use pastebin.com instead |
| 23:14.53 | ducktape | one moment |
| 23:16.54 | ducktape | http://pastebin.com/CE5NJdTB |
| 23:17.03 | ducktape | let me know if that wasnt enough |
| 23:17.16 | blast007 | ../../libtool: line 1153: g++: command not found |
| 23:17.32 | blast007 | BZFlag needs a C++ compiler ;) |
| 23:17.37 | blast007 | so, install g++ |
| 23:17.52 | ducktape | lol. |
| 23:19.13 | blast007 | is mint debian based? |
| 23:19.25 | ducktape | when i searched for the compiler it only showed g++ for arm processes |
| 23:19.31 | ducktape | processor |
| 23:19.34 | ducktape | but i found it :) |
| 23:19.38 | blast007 | k |
| 23:19.40 | ducktape | yeah |
| 23:19.58 | blast007 | did you install the stuff we recommend for Debian/Ubuntu as documented in README.Linux ? |
| 23:20.20 | ducktape | yes sir i did |
| 23:20.20 | blast007 | I'm assuming not, since, that does include g++ in the list ;) |
| 23:20.25 | blast007 | heh |
| 23:20.28 | ducktape | missed it |
| 23:20.41 | ducktape | ubuntu is better anyways. |
| 23:20.54 | blast007 | better than what? |
| 23:21.17 | JeffM | so you did not install the dependencies |
| 23:21.22 | JeffM | mint is ubuntu based :) |
| 23:21.23 | ducktape | linux mint. personally |
| 23:21.48 | ducktape | correct i missed some dependencies |
| 23:21.49 | blast007 | if I do a desktop linux ever, I'll probably do something gentoo based, like Sabayon |
| 23:22.13 | blast007 | a rolling release cycle sounds nice for something like that |
| 23:22.15 | JeffM | so I have no idea what that statement |
| 23:22.22 | ducktape | (laughs at my ignorance) |
| 23:22.28 | ducktape | so, thanks guys. |
| 23:22.32 | blast007 | bai |
| 23:22.32 | JeffM | I have both a mint and an ubuntu install |
| 23:22.36 | JeffM | they both build bz just fine |
| 23:22.43 | JeffM | mint has less unbunt "fancyness" |
| 23:22.57 | ducktape | yeah it was my own fault. |
| 23:23.06 | ducktape | needed to be humbled today i suppose. |
| 23:23.13 | JeffM | the list of dependencies WAS in the readme ;) |
| 23:23.34 | ducktape | i was too excited! |
| 23:23.47 | ducktape | sorry for wasting your time. |
| 23:24.00 | ducktape | anyways, did i hear talk of one last bz release? |
| 23:24.02 | JeffM | it was no waste, it's a common mistake :) |
| 23:24.08 | ducktape | thanks :) |
| 23:24.14 | JeffM | 2.4.2 will probalby be the last one |
| 23:24.21 | JeffM | at the rate we are going |
| 23:24.41 | ducktape | yeah understandable. |
| 23:24.44 | ducktape | jeff, got a link for your new project? |
| 23:24.50 | JeffM | opencombat.net |
| 23:25.35 | JeffM | tho the main blog dosn't have much, it' all on the wiki |
| 23:27.06 | ducktape | are the maps going to be .bzw? |
| 23:27.11 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 23:27.27 | JeffM | why would I limit any game to such a horrible format |
| 23:27.28 | ducktape | okay good |
| 23:27.46 | JeffM | the current test app uses voxels because they are easy |
| 23:27.49 | ducktape | haha didnt know how similar to bzflag you were shooting for |
| 23:27.59 | JeffM | the production version will probalby use a cell/portal system |
| 23:28.19 | JeffM | it will probalby not share any technology with bzflag |
| 23:28.22 | ducktape | in the maps? or are you speaking a language i dont know |
| 23:28.46 | JeffM | the current map is an octree of voxel clusters |
| 23:28.53 | JeffM | they are easy to sort and easy to collide with |
| 23:29.08 | JeffM | eventualy I want to use a tree of linked cells that are connected via portals |
| 23:29.14 | ducktape | oh okay i gotchya |
| 23:29.30 | JeffM | the cell/portal system allows for very arbitary worlds |
| 23:29.45 | JeffM | with some interesting connecitivy options |
| 23:30.23 | JeffM | you can make cells like a hallway in the shape of a figure 8 but never cross over each other |
| 23:30.30 | ducktape | what about the tanks, how do they move? similar to in bz? |
| 23:30.44 | JeffM | depends on how the game script sets them up |
| 23:30.52 | ducktape | oh that is cool. |
| 23:30.58 | JeffM | it shoudl be possible to configure them to work the same if desired |
| 23:31.07 | ducktape | whats your desire? |
| 23:31.20 | JeffM | to be able to do more then bz |
| 23:31.50 | JeffM | but have it all configurable |
| 23:31.52 | JeffM | and flexable |
| 23:32.05 | JeffM | so if people want a game instance hosted that is similar to bz, it can be done |
| 23:32.08 | ducktape | configurable by server? or by release |
| 23:32.26 | JeffM | my concepts of server and release are very differnet from what you are expecting |
| 23:32.35 | ducktape | such as? |
| 23:32.35 | JeffM | it's a self updating game, so we don't have to do releases |
| 23:32.43 | JeffM | it patches when you start it |
| 23:32.49 | JeffM | so everyone is always on the same version |
| 23:32.51 | ducktape | oh awesome. |
| 23:32.57 | JeffM | then a "Server" isn't a single game |
| 23:33.05 | JeffM | it's a network of rooms |
| 23:33.14 | JeffM | each room runs a game with various settings and maps |
| 23:33.19 | JeffM | like IRC |
| 23:33.25 | JeffM | you can hop from one room to another |
| 23:33.27 | ducktape | oh wow. |
| 23:33.30 | JeffM | or start new rooms as needed |
| 23:33.50 | JeffM | so if you want to play a BZ style game, you request a new game instance, and are moved to it |
| 23:33.52 | ducktape | does that require a huge server? |
| 23:33.54 | JeffM | and invite people |
| 23:33.57 | JeffM | no a lot of little ones |
| 23:34.01 | JeffM | it's a network |
| 23:34.03 | ducktape | oh okay |
| 23:34.10 | JeffM | like a cloud |
| 23:34.11 | ducktape | thats awesome |
| 23:34.18 | ducktape | i follow you now. |
| 23:34.27 | JeffM | the gameplay is all defined by python scripts |
| 23:34.36 | JeffM | so you pick a scriptset to use for a game instance |
| 23:34.42 | JeffM | and those scripts are send to the clients to use |
| 23:34.47 | JeffM | so they know how to behave |
| 23:35.24 | JeffM | tho the server still does the important work |
| 23:35.26 | *** join/#bzflag rathis (~rathis@b0194253.bb.sky.com) |
| 23:36.00 | ducktape | i see. whats your progress on all this? |
| 23:36.06 | *** join/#bzflag ts3d (~anonymous@unaffiliated/ts3d) |
| 23:36.26 | JeffM | I have a test app that can patch resources and load the world |
| 23:36.44 | JeffM | and it currently does movment simulting 250ms of lag |
| 23:36.57 | JeffM | I'm making the server nodes to connect to it now |
| 23:37.11 | JeffM | and there is an editor framework for the voxel worlds |
| 23:37.45 | JeffM | and a bunch of design documents |
| 23:38.12 | ducktape | awesome. what about the client itself? |
| 23:38.20 | ducktape | whats your projection for a beta release? |
| 23:38.33 | JeffM | I would not start making a final client untill the test app is complete |
| 23:38.41 | JeffM | the test is to ensure that the concepts work |
| 23:38.49 | JeffM | there is no projection |
| 23:38.54 | ducktape | got ya. |
| 23:39.02 | JeffM | beta requires some level of functionality |
| 23:39.18 | JeffM | the test should end in a simple, yet playable game |
| 23:39.29 | ducktape | yeah. has this idea of yours for the server ever been done a game? |
| 23:39.51 | JeffM | some MMO games are structured in a similar manner |
| 23:40.23 | ducktape | that would make since. but instead of "rooms" it moves you based on where you are in the world? |
| 23:40.37 | JeffM | well yes and no |
| 23:40.46 | JeffM | it depends on your backend database |
| 23:41.13 | JeffM | if you have a good shared database it's better to group people by physical locale |
| 23:41.14 | ducktape | ah i see. |
| 23:41.39 | JeffM | then you can know the latency on your network between your nodes, instead of having to deal with different latencies |
| 23:41.46 | JeffM | but it dpends on the speed of your game |
| 23:41.59 | ducktape | yeah. |
| 23:42.06 | JeffM | I think a number of FPS games that do matchmaking work similar to this |
| 23:42.32 | ducktape | yeah, it bunches you up with people that have similar latencies. |
| 23:42.44 | ducktape | right? |
| 23:43.06 | JeffM | matchmaking makes a small game and puts all the people playing in it on the same server |
| 23:43.15 | JeffM | usualy they base it on skill |
| 23:43.27 | blast007 | JeffM: Left 4 Dead 2 seems to do that, sometimes. Though I've had it dump me into a server that was "full", or down, or had 250ms of lag for everyone... ;) |
| 23:43.38 | ducktape | ahhh i see now. |
| 23:43.48 | ducktape | are you going to make a sort of ranking system? |
| 23:43.49 | blast007 | so maybe it just gets lucky sometimes.. |
| 23:43.58 | JeffM | blast007, yeah I don't know how they run the servers, or if they just aggigrate community servers and put people on them |
| 23:44.06 | blast007 | both |
| 23:44.15 | JeffM | the instance manager should tell the coordinator what instances are available |
| 23:44.26 | JeffM | the coordinator is just a php page |
| 23:44.29 | blast007 | they have official dedicated servers that they run, and then the community run servers |
| 23:44.39 | blast007 | and you can have private "steam group" servers as well |
| 23:44.43 | JeffM | it gets hits from the managers on how the load on each machine is doing |
| 23:44.45 | spldart | uses positive thinking to wish a rabbit chase to the top of the server list ;) |
| 23:45.03 | JeffM | do they mix them in the same list of games? |
| 23:45.10 | JeffM | or does it just pop you into one |
| 23:45.51 | blast007 | if you do a quick match, I think it just a mix. if you go into more of a custom selection, you can choose "official dedicated" or "best available dedicated" (as well as steam group and locally hosted) |
| 23:46.25 | blast007 | official servers only run the stock maps, so playing custom maps requires one of the other three options |
| 23:46.34 | JeffM | ahh |
| 23:46.48 | JeffM | I'm planing on keeping community servers on a seperate list |
| 23:47.02 | ducktape | its gets ugly if you dont |
| 23:47.05 | JeffM | but I want a system in place to accept maps from the community for inclusion in official servers |
| 23:47.25 | JeffM | I expect community servers to work more like bz, one game per server listing |
| 23:47.42 | JeffM | but I won't prevent someone from registering there own coordinator |
| 23:48.11 | JeffM | it's just not going to be as easy to set up a coordinator and instance network as it will be to just run a community instance. |
| 23:49.40 | ducktape | thats awesome jeff, im excited for the possibilites. hope it all goes smoothly. how long have you been programming? |
| 23:52.18 | JeffM | since I was 5 |
| 23:52.35 | ducktape | i figured as much. |
| 23:53.01 | ducktape | did you go to school for it? or just teach yourself? |
| 23:54.57 | JeffM | a bit of both |
| 23:55.11 | JeffM | at some point I'll get a degree |
| 23:55.30 | JeffM | if the company gets me the paperwork I need |
| 23:56.25 | ducktape | ive always wanted to understand more than i do, but seeing as how i didnt start when i was 5, and i came on here with a problem that was as simple as it was, id say there isnt much hope for me. |
| 23:56.40 | JeffM | programing is pretty easy |
| 23:56.59 | ducktape | really? i only caught about 70% of what you said today |
| 23:57.22 | JeffM | then that's pretty good |
| 23:57.32 | JeffM | most people get hung up on the language part |
| 23:57.35 | JeffM | and that is easy |
| 23:57.43 | ducktape | perhaps ill take an intro class |
| 23:57.47 | JeffM | it's the high level controll stuff that's important |
| 23:58.01 | ducktape | language such as c++? or just you talking? |
| 23:58.19 | JeffM | programing language, c, C++, java, python, whatever |
| 23:58.36 | ducktape | yeah |
| 23:58.54 | ducktape | if i were to take an intro class which would you recommend? c++? |
| 23:59.39 | JeffM | most intro to programing classes have a language they always teach |
| 23:59.50 | JeffM | java, python, or something like that |