| 00:10.12 | *** join/#bzflag EvilJStoker (jstoker@unaffiliated/jstoker) |
| 00:20.00 | kiu | how do i login as admin on my own server ? there seems to be no tool which uses the "-password" specified in the bzfs.conf ? |
| 00:27.36 | kiu | ah, got it, sorry |
| 00:33.16 | blast007 | kiu: is this a public server or just a local private one? |
| 00:34.54 | kiu | blast007: its a public one (follow the white rabbit), but i just found out how to promote myself using /password |
| 00:35.32 | blast007 | yeah, I'd recommend *not* using that on a public server |
| 00:35.37 | blast007 | you should use global groups instead |
| 00:35.57 | kiu | why is that ? people are brute forcing passwords ? |
| 00:36.16 | blast007 | well, it's easy to miss the / and send your server password to everyone |
| 00:36.41 | blast007 | and you can't have multiple admins without giving out the password (not to mention that other admins shouldn't have that much power) |
| 00:38.35 | kiu | thx for the tipp, i use bzadmin ... "/password secret", at least i can't miss a "/" :) |
| 00:39.08 | blast007 | don't know what bzadmin has to do with that |
| 00:39.12 | blast007 | you still type it |
| 00:39.20 | blast007 | so you can still miss hitting the / key |
| 00:40.05 | kiu | no need to type, if you use the pass as a parameter in a shell script, it will do the login automatically |
| 00:42.19 | blast007 | guess that works for a small server |
| 00:45.35 | kiu | thx anyway |
| 01:17.01 | *** join/#bzflag short_circuit (~james@c-98-195-162-191.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 02:33.54 | khonkhortisan | Do public servers automatically download a ban list? |
| 02:34.33 | blast007 | dunno if it's just public ones |
| 02:34.47 | blast007 | but there is a 'master ban' list |
| 02:35.32 | khonkhortisan | I caught it with wireshark |
| 02:36.04 | khonkhortisan | and it made me nervous because I saw all the reasons before I saw the ips |
| 02:45.01 | khonkhortisan | I get ERROR: Requesting address is [firstaddress] while server is at [secondaddress] but bzfs doesn't even tell me anything went wrong |
| 02:45.48 | khonkhortisan | if I use -publicaddr [firstaddress] I get ERROR: Unable to reach your server. Check your router/firewall. (Connection refused) |
| 02:46.00 | khonkhortisan | If I use the second address, it gives me the first error again. |
| 02:46.37 | khonkhortisan | I know why it doesn't work, I just didn't know bzfs also knew why it didn't work |
| 02:48.31 | blast007 | khonkhortisan: the public IP must match the IP that is used to communicate with the list server |
| 02:48.50 | blast007 | does your server have multiple addresses? |
| 02:48.56 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 02:49.07 | khonkhortisan | I didn't think it did |
| 02:49.21 | blast007 | well what are the two IPs you're seeing? |
| 02:50.05 | khonkhortisan | the same one I get from whatsmyip 24.16.33.113 and the one it thinks the server's at 38.98.242.100 |
| 02:50.27 | blast007 | what publicaddr are you using? |
| 02:51.48 | khonkhortisan | none, the first, and the second at different times. Using none or the second give me the wrong address error, using the first address gives me the real error that I'm not actually accepting connections |
| 02:52.03 | blast007 | I mean, are you using a hostname? |
| 02:52.09 | khonkhortisan | no |
| 02:52.17 | khonkhortisan | just ip |
| 02:52.19 | blast007 | and you're trying to host from your comcast connection? |
| 02:52.23 | khonkhortisan | yes |
| 02:52.34 | khonkhortisan | do you know where the second ip comes fromL |
| 02:52.38 | khonkhortisan | *from? |
| 02:53.40 | khonkhortisan | I still have to change my router from port triggering to port forwarding |
| 02:55.44 | blast007 | well, you're trying to use a madeup hostname, for one thing |
| 02:56.01 | blast007 | KylesBox.we7u.net does not resolve to anything |
| 02:56.11 | khonkhortisan | haha yes it doesn't |
| 02:56.30 | blast007 | we7u.net isn't even registered... |
| 02:56.49 | khonkhortisan | I didn't think it mattered |
| 02:57.07 | blast007 | yeah, it does... this is basic networking |
| 02:57.32 | blast007 | you can't just make stuff up and expect to have DNS read your mind to resolve it |
| 02:58.00 | khonkhortisan | so I should use something more like c-24-16-33-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ? |
| 02:58.07 | blast007 | or just use the IP |
| 02:58.13 | blast007 | or get a real hostname that points to your IP |
| 02:58.38 | blast007 | is your key assigned to the hostname or the IP? |
| 02:58.43 | khonkhortisan | ip |
| 02:58.48 | khonkhortisan | I hope |
| 02:58.52 | blast007 | .... |
| 02:58.54 | blast007 | check, don't guess |
| 02:58.56 | khonkhortisan | that's what I put in |
| 02:59.07 | blast007 | okay, then it is |
| 02:59.19 | blast007 | so use that IP as the public address, and actually configure our router |
| 03:00.16 | blast007 | is it Comcast Xfinity internet? |
| 03:01.10 | khonkhortisan | All I know is it's fiberoptic |
| 03:01.14 | blast007 | because the Acceptable Use Policy forbids running servers |
| 03:02.05 | khonkhortisan | How do you know that? |
| 03:02.16 | blast007 | so if you don't want your Internet to potentially be canceled, then you shouldn't be running a server |
| 03:02.20 | blast007 | because I can read |
| 03:02.24 | blast007 | http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/HighSpeedInternetAUP.html |
| 03:02.58 | blast007 | under Prohibited Uses and Activities, Technical restrictions, bullet 5 |
| 03:04.09 | khonkhortisan | and I thought isps only blocked the mail port |
| 03:04.13 | blast007 | bullet 6 *might* allow it, but it depends on their definition of "personal use".. since it'd be used by other people, I don't think that's "personal use" anymore |
| 03:04.33 | blast007 | they don't necessarily block this, but it's against their rules, so they can cancel your account if you break the rules |
| 03:04.35 | khonkhortisan | If I do have xfinity, I would have two strikes against me because I was trying to get a website up |
| 03:04.42 | blast007 | ........ |
| 03:04.55 | blast007 | get a VPS somewhere |
| 03:06.44 | khonkhortisan | I could run a bzflag server if I was testing something and blocked people from joining |
| 03:07.24 | blast007 | that's called a "private server" then ;) |
| 03:07.39 | blast007 | you don't need to be on the list to run a server |
| 03:08.00 | blast007 | and given your apparent lack of basic networking skills, that's probably the better option right now |
| 03:09.42 | khonkhortisan | it's not an insult if it's true :) |
| 03:20.40 | *** join/#bzflag jeffm (~jeffm@unaffiliated/jeffm2501) |
| 03:20.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v jeffm] by ChanServ |
| 06:12.43 | *** join/#bzflag EvilJStoker (jstoker@unaffiliated/jstoker) |
| 06:45.43 | CIA-106 | BZFlag: 03Liolio 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r0 10/User:Liolio: |
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| 11:40.58 | blast007 | wiki is in the process of moving, in case anyone wonders |
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| 13:14.17 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
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| 13:51.16 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 14:04.44 | CIA-106 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r22489 10/trunk/bzflag/AUTHORS: Stray parenthesis |
| 14:11.34 | blast007 | wiki should be back up now, pending DNS propigation |
| 14:13.43 | blast007 | if someone would want to test it out to ensure it's fully functional, that would be much appreciated |
| 14:27.36 | *** join/#bzflag _lmnop (~lmnop@p5DC4E9C1.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:38.47 | *** join/#bzflag alezakos (~kongr45gp@ppp-2-85-8-33.home.otenet.gr) |
| 14:39.48 | Thumper_ | blast007: seems to work except for the stats link says my.bzflag.org is 404 |
| 14:40.25 | blast007 | that would have been busted prior to moving it as well |
| 14:40.33 | blast007 | we haven't run stats there for quite some time |
| 14:40.34 | Thumper_ | ok :) |
| 14:40.56 | Thumper_ | I can log in and all the other pages I tried (including 20 random ones) worked fine |
| 14:40.59 | Thumper_ | didn't try to edit anything |
| 14:41.22 | blast007 | k, should probably be fine |
| 14:41.31 | blast007 | permissions on the directory should all be the same as well |
| 14:42.08 | blast007 | and that's the last of the "official bzflag stuff" migrated off my other servers :) |
| 14:48.31 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart2@c-98-199-190-28.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
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| 14:48.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 14:58.58 | joevano | ~blast007++ |
| 14:59.43 | alezakos | ~blast007++ |
| 16:01.38 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@76-218-80-21.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
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| 16:01.38 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ |
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| 16:15.00 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ |
| 16:16.29 | JeffM | and tim never came back... |
| 16:18.31 | JeffM | ok so how the hell do we get 1400 downloads in a week and only 80 people playing at a time.... |
| 16:18.43 | blast007 | I keep hitting F5 |
| 16:19.33 | blast007 | wonder if people think the game is locked up because the mouse doesn't click on the menus, so they give up ;) |
| 16:20.02 | blast007 | well, let me rephrase that - I wonder *how many* people think that |
| 16:20.13 | JeffM | that's a good question |
| 16:20.26 | alezakos | Maybe you should add a "Use keyboard to navigate" - never mind, you already have it |
| 16:20.30 | JeffM | I also wonder what the "unknown" section in the dowload stats are |
| 16:22.01 | JeffM | do you think it's time to ask Tim if he cares again? |
| 16:22.09 | JeffM | cus he ain't showing a whole lot of concern |
| 16:23.59 | blast007 | someone on #debian-games recommended just leaving 2.0.x in the official repos (since it still technically works) and then just shoot for getting 2.4.2 into backports or doing our own repo |
| 16:24.16 | JeffM | that makes sense |
| 16:24.21 | JeffM | or we should jsut fork it |
| 16:24.35 | JeffM | if there is enough interst to continue |
| 16:24.45 | JeffM | why we stay here with tim is beyond me |
| 16:25.06 | JeffM | fork, move off of SF, and change the bzflag MOTD and mainsite to point to the fork |
| 16:25.29 | JeffM | then write up a new set of requirements |
| 16:25.39 | JeffM | if the current codebase wants to be kept |
| 16:25.53 | JeffM | I can't make a new game on my own, and this is where the people are |
| 16:26.01 | JeffM | sorta |
| 16:42.57 | *** join/#bzflag meeba (~lamer@c-75-71-83-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 17:10.32 | *** join/#bzflag nielsle (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) |
| 17:56.27 | JeffM | or we could just sit here and thumb it |
| 18:55.35 | *** join/#bzflag Tanx (411f04e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.31.4.233) |
| 20:15.38 | *** join/#bzflag torands (~Mibbit@MW-ESR1-72-49-214-248.fuse.net) |
| 20:15.46 | torands | hello |
| 20:15.57 | blast007 | hi |
| 20:17.08 | torands | do you know how bzfs treats relative filepaths? "./myban.file" |
| 20:17.31 | JeffM | it uses the working dir it had when it is started |
| 20:17.35 | JeffM | what OS are you on? |
| 20:18.39 | *** join/#bzflag alezakos (~kongr45gp@ppp-2-85-8-33.home.otenet.gr) |
| 20:18.48 | torands | os X (10.6) |
| 20:18.57 | JeffM | how are you starting the server? |
| 20:19.01 | JeffM | from the command line? |
| 20:19.13 | torands | from a script I've been working on |
| 20:19.27 | JeffM | how does it start it? with a full path? or does it CD to a dir first? |
| 20:20.10 | torands | full path |
| 20:20.26 | torands | from the location of the script |
| 20:20.29 | JeffM | then the working dir is probalby the folder the script is started from |
| 20:20.38 | JeffM | and thats where bzfs will think ./ is |
| 20:20.56 | JeffM | if you want bzfs to use paths relative to it, then you should CD to that folder in the script frist |
| 20:21.03 | torands | ah |
| 20:21.04 | JeffM | then bzfs will be run "from" there |
| 20:21.17 | torands | what if you're using a conf file? |
| 20:21.22 | JeffM | same deal |
| 20:21.33 | JeffM | a conf file is just a list of commands piped in |
| 20:21.39 | JeffM | bzfs dosn't know where it is on the disk |
| 20:21.46 | torands | oh |
| 20:21.54 | JeffM | it just knows it was started |
| 20:22.02 | JeffM | and the shell was left in some directory |
| 20:22.18 | JeffM | it assuems YOU know where it is and gave it good paths to get to what you want it to load |
| 20:22.25 | JeffM | by itself bzfs needs no files |
| 20:23.41 | torands | was there any idea to make bzflag 3.x less command line option based? so that a conf file would not just be piped in? |
| 20:23.57 | JeffM | what do you mean? |
| 20:24.05 | JeffM | like give it a GUI? |
| 20:24.09 | torands | no |
| 20:24.49 | torands | have the conf be like apache's where you can have Include directives and such |
| 20:25.03 | JeffM | no, there are no plans for that |
| 20:25.09 | torands | or more importantly a server root |
| 20:25.09 | JeffM | it isn't that complex of a config |
| 20:25.26 | JeffM | apache needs files, bzfs does not |
| 20:25.44 | JeffM | as for development plans that would be very low on our list |
| 20:25.53 | JeffM | right now we can't even get a debian package made |
| 20:26.03 | JeffM | and there are way too many servers :) |
| 20:26.08 | torands | does anyone run bzfs without a conf file though? |
| 20:26.13 | JeffM | some do |
| 20:26.18 | JeffM | some have systems that build up the command line |
| 20:26.24 | JeffM | and start and stop servers |
| 20:26.31 | JeffM | from php or python |
| 20:26.51 | JeffM | you have to remember, bzflag is a lan game, not an internet service :) |
| 20:27.21 | JeffM | it's possible you could do a lot of what you are thinking about with a plugin |
| 20:27.30 | JeffM | the API can configure a lot of the options |
| 20:27.41 | JeffM | and plugins know where they are started from |
| 20:28.04 | torands | no, it's an internet game; LAN listservers are a pain from what I've heard |
| 20:28.18 | JeffM | people play it in on the internet |
| 20:28.24 | JeffM | that dosn't mean it was designed for it |
| 20:28.33 | JeffM | it has no concept of lag or packetloss |
| 20:29.21 | torands | what do you mean have a concept of? |
| 20:29.48 | JeffM | bzflag assumes all packets take 0 time to be sent and that none of them are ever lost |
| 20:30.01 | JeffM | and it has full trust in the client logic that all those things happen |
| 20:30.05 | torands | why is UDP used then? |
| 20:30.18 | JeffM | because it has less overhead |
| 20:30.24 | JeffM | and reduces lag |
| 20:30.40 | JeffM | it was added after the game was first writen to try and make internet play better |
| 20:30.41 | JeffM | it did not |
| 20:31.09 | JeffM | the origonal author never went back and did the rest of the work to make it a proper internet game |
| 20:31.15 | JeffM | thats why it's so easy to cheat |
| 20:31.50 | torands | I thought the server manages most of the game though |
| 20:31.56 | JeffM | nope |
| 20:32.00 | JeffM | the server is just a packet relay |
| 20:32.06 | JeffM | the client has all the game logic |
| 20:32.19 | JeffM | it's up to each client to detect that they got hit and say "I died" |
| 20:32.35 | JeffM | they also show other player's shots where they were when the player shot them, not where they would be now |
| 20:32.43 | JeffM | so no 2 players ever get to see the same thing |
| 20:33.20 | torands | I thought bzflag 3 planned to remove server managed shots? |
| 20:33.29 | JeffM | that was a rumor |
| 20:33.41 | JeffM | people put all there wishes into "bzflag 3" |
| 20:33.46 | JeffM | bzflag 3 died |
| 20:34.04 | torands | so wouldn't that imply that the server manages shots now? |
| 20:34.10 | JeffM | moving the shots server side requires redoing the vast majority of the simulation system |
| 20:34.14 | JeffM | nope |
| 20:34.18 | JeffM | the server does nothing |
| 20:34.40 | JeffM | we did some expirments on what it would take to move shots server side and it's a huge task |
| 20:34.46 | blast007 | the server doesn't even know where shots would rico |
| 20:34.56 | blast007 | all the "shot strategy" code is client-side only |
| 20:34.57 | JeffM | yeah we don't have a simulation state on the server |
| 20:35.14 | JeffM | there was a SOC project to see what it would take and it never made any code that got into the project |
| 20:35.35 | JeffM | so bzflag is still just a lan game, that people keep playing on the internet :) |
| 20:35.56 | JeffM | nothing major in the codebase has changed in years |
| 20:36.15 | JeffM | 2.4 was made because nobody wanted to work on 3.0, so it just has a few changes over 2.0 |
| 20:44.24 | torands | why not 2.2? |
| 20:44.35 | JeffM | there was already something called 2.2 that also failed |
| 20:44.40 | JeffM | so we skipped over it |
| 20:44.58 | JeffM | 3.0 was initaly going to be called 2.2 |
| 20:45.05 | JeffM | so we didn't want confusion |
| 20:46.15 | torands | what did happen to 3.x developement |
| 20:46.30 | JeffM | as I said, 2.99 stalled |
| 20:46.35 | JeffM | that would have been 3.0 |
| 20:46.53 | JeffM | 2.4 was a last ditch effort to get any development started again |
| 20:46.59 | JeffM | that was nearly a year ago |
| 20:47.05 | torands | what was it like before the stall |
| 20:47.13 | JeffM | just like it is now |
| 20:47.24 | JeffM | not much happening, maintainer not caring |
| 20:47.50 | JeffM | the maintainer dosn't even bother to log in here anymore |
| 20:48.54 | alezakos | Since he doesn't care, why is he still the maintainer? |
| 20:49.24 | JeffM | because he owns bzflag |
| 20:50.07 | JeffM | we have asked him several times to turn it over, he has not wanted to |
| 20:50.23 | torands | who? |
| 20:50.29 | alezakos | Tim Riker |
| 20:50.41 | JeffM | not that there are that many other motivated people |
| 20:50.42 | JeffM | yeah |
| 20:51.08 | JeffM | it's hard to work with bzflag's code in a modern setting. |
| 20:52.13 | JeffM | the debate is if it's easier/better to go in and revamp the existing code or to just start over with a proper design and use modern libs |
| 20:52.13 | *** part/#bzflag torands (~Mibbit@MW-ESR1-72-49-214-248.fuse.net) |
| 20:52.32 | *** join/#bzflag torands (~Mibbit@MW-ESR1-72-49-214-248.fuse.net) |
| 20:52.36 | JeffM | the debate is if it's easier/better to go in and revamp the existing code or to just start over with a proper design and use modern libs |
| 20:53.13 | torands | Does it still run on IRIX? |
| 20:53.24 | JeffM | we have not done anything to specificly prevent it |
| 20:53.34 | JeffM | I don't know if anyone has tried to build on IRIX |
| 20:53.46 | JeffM | I'm sure it could be made to build and run with some love |
| 20:54.10 | torands | cause a rewrite would likely make it impossible |
| 20:54.20 | torands | wouldn't it? |
| 20:54.25 | JeffM | depends how it was done |
| 20:54.45 | JeffM | but yes as part of a design for a rewrite we would have to set requirements for what platforms are supported |
| 20:54.58 | JeffM | and irix would not be high on the list |
| 20:55.02 | torands | :) |
| 20:55.09 | torands | I'm sure |
| 20:55.13 | JeffM | I would target the main 3, windows, OSX, then linux |
| 20:55.21 | JeffM | with linux only servers |
| 20:55.34 | JeffM | or OSX if nothing else was needed for them |
| 20:57.11 | torands | servers linux and freebsd would cover it though, most of OSX userland is BSD/GNU |
| 20:57.18 | Constitution | how is tim affecting the progress of this project at this point? since I thought we didn't need him for releases anymore |
| 20:57.24 | JeffM | he isn't |
| 20:57.27 | JeffM | other then DNS |
| 20:57.39 | JeffM | so it's somewhat moot |
| 20:57.41 | JeffM | mostly just sad |
| 20:57.44 | Constitution | so why do we need a fork? |
| 20:57.52 | JeffM | to get way from the DNS |
| 20:58.07 | JeffM | and techincaly he is the primary on SF |
| 20:58.15 | JeffM | so there are a few things that we could not change |
| 20:58.27 | JeffM | also he gets donations on SF and the like |
| 20:58.32 | JeffM | it would just be cleaner to break |
| 20:58.51 | Constitution | like turning off the bogus number of downloads feature ;) |
| 20:58.55 | JeffM | yeah |
| 20:59.05 | JeffM | also we would not be able to modify the licnese if needed |
| 20:59.20 | JeffM | he is also the registered debian developer |
| 20:59.35 | JeffM | if we fork we can just add the new project in under our maintainer |
| 21:00.01 | JeffM | you could also reevaluate the various "timisms" about flag and movment |
| 21:00.11 | JeffM | ramps and sheilds with more then one hit etc... |
| 21:00.17 | torands | like what? |
| 21:00.40 | JeffM | some of his design choices are good I think , but not all of them IMHO |
| 21:01.19 | JeffM | at current activity levels I doubut anyone would work on a fork |
| 21:01.37 | JeffM | there has been no interest in any development it seems |
| 21:01.56 | JeffM | it's possible a fork could "shake it up" |
| 21:02.20 | JeffM | you saw what happened after 2.4.0 was released, everyone went back to the same thing |
| 21:02.23 | torands | ramps wouldn't fit in BZFlag though tanks are designed to be flat on the ground |
| 21:02.30 | Constitution | a re-write with key changes, maybe |
| 21:02.46 | Constitution | or just new project |
| 21:02.47 | JeffM | torands, have you ever SEEN a tank :) |
| 21:02.57 | JeffM | Constitution, a rewrite would be a new project yes |
| 21:03.06 | JeffM | a fork would be for mods to existing code. |
| 21:03.09 | torands | IN BZFLAG |
| 21:03.23 | JeffM | there are some cases where some ramps would work |
| 21:03.28 | Constitution | problem is a lot of people here seem to like how this game works :) |
| 21:03.45 | JeffM | Constitution, thats why I want to break off, let those people keep playing this game |
| 21:03.53 | torands | like what may I ask? |
| 21:04.15 | JeffM | slight ramps to get upthings insted of jumping |
| 21:04.18 | I_Died_Once | http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=16025 |
| 21:04.31 | I_Died_Once | is this still true in 2.4 for allowing geno flags in rabbit hunt? |
| 21:04.51 | Constitution | true, the game still works, and will live on in some form |
| 21:04.54 | I_Died_Once | last post, that is |
| 21:05.21 | alezakos | Is it rouge or rogue? |
| 21:05.50 | Constitution | does it seem like 2.4.2 can't get released without some more long-term changes to make the project more sustainable? getting it into debian repos, etc.? |
| 21:06.08 | JeffM | Constitution, current talk is to just make our own repo |
| 21:06.32 | JeffM | we could release 2.4.2 right now |
| 21:06.56 | JeffM | I don't know what "sustainability" has to do with a specific release |
| 21:07.05 | torands | what would that entail? |
| 21:07.05 | JeffM | it has never been woried about before. |
| 21:07.19 | JeffM | just finishing up one of the scripts |
| 21:07.28 | JeffM | and then a webpage with a specific structure |
| 21:07.55 | JeffM | even the debian games team said we sould probalby host our own repo |
| 21:08.10 | JeffM | then we can update whenever and not be tied to debian releases |
| 21:08.18 | JeffM | we ain't a word processor :) |
| 21:08.27 | torands | what would be the benefit of our own repos. |
| 21:08.36 | torands | never mind |
| 21:08.59 | JeffM | yeah, since clients have to have versions in line with the servers, it donsn't make sense for old versions of debian to have old bzflag |
| 21:09.04 | JeffM | since they can't play anywhere |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | and that's how debian is structured, waterfall back to old versions |
| 21:09.38 | JeffM | Games tend to need everyone on similar versions |
| 21:09.49 | JeffM | optimaly the game would update itself |
| 21:09.53 | torands | i checked today, still 4 2.0.16 servers running |
| 21:10.06 | JeffM | yeah that's a few people who didn't like the wings change |
| 21:10.28 | torands | why was that changed? |
| 21:10.36 | JeffM | to make it less cheap |
| 21:10.42 | JeffM | and to require skill |
| 21:10.47 | JeffM | old wings was unbalanced |
| 21:11.27 | JeffM | the inability to aim up makes it hard to defeat someone who can just bounce out of your way |
| 21:12.15 | JeffM | also instant direction changes are hard on the network prediction code |
| 21:12.23 | JeffM | specialy with no lag compensation |
| 21:12.24 | torands | As far as I have seen it's not any difference balance wise |
| 21:12.36 | JeffM | ok |
| 21:12.59 | JeffM | but that's the reasoning we used at the time |
| 21:13.26 | torands | I thought there is no net prediction |
| 21:13.34 | JeffM | there is prediction |
| 21:13.38 | JeffM | it's based of flawed data |
| 21:13.48 | JeffM | but the client will project where it thinks the client is |
| 21:13.55 | JeffM | dead reconing |
| 21:14.08 | JeffM | it's not accurate but it's there |
| 21:14.23 | blast007 | debian games said ideally we should do debian backports, which is an official repo |
| 21:14.26 | JeffM | if it wasn't players would not moves :) |
| 21:14.40 | JeffM | blast007, if they accept it, usualy they only accept "security issues" |
| 21:14.47 | blast007 | backports is different |
| 21:14.47 | JeffM | but yes that would be ideal |
| 21:14.52 | torands | that sounds wonderful . flawed data |
| 21:14.53 | JeffM | ahh backports, sorry |
| 21:15.05 | JeffM | bzflag is all about flawed data :) |
| 21:15.29 | JeffM | blast007, get them to help fix up the script we need and then ship it |
| 21:15.53 | torands | ideally what wouldn't be server-side? |
| 21:15.58 | JeffM | sure |
| 21:16.04 | JeffM | the entire simulation should be server side |
| 21:16.14 | JeffM | and sent to the clients |
| 21:16.33 | JeffM | then each client updates it's local copy of the simulation based on what the server said and increments it for the lag time |
| 21:16.40 | JeffM | that's how real games do it |
| 21:16.48 | JeffM | then you have one valid state, on the server |
| 21:17.02 | JeffM | so cheaters can only mess up there own local state, not everyone else |
| 21:17.20 | torands | wouldn't that be too much data? |
| 21:17.26 | JeffM | not really |
| 21:17.37 | blast007 | it'd be pretty much the same as it is now |
| 21:17.43 | JeffM | you don't send the entire state every frame, just ones that have moved off the prediction path. |
| 21:17.48 | JeffM | yeah it's not rocket science |
| 21:18.03 | JeffM | EVERYONE else has already solved the problem of internet play |
| 21:18.05 | blast007 | just that the server would actually KNOW what is going on instead of just passing the info on blindly |
| 21:18.16 | JeffM | clients send input and pretend like the input will be accepted |
| 21:18.20 | torands | well nothing can be predicted though |
| 21:18.32 | JeffM | server gets the input and applies it based on the time that the client sent it, not when it gets it |
| 21:18.40 | JeffM | you can do some |
| 21:19.00 | JeffM | bzflag tanks are slow and move on predicable paths (within the time frame of a packet) |
| 21:19.06 | JeffM | there will always be some error |
| 21:19.13 | JeffM | but there are ways to minimize it |
| 21:19.16 | blast007 | many modern games start to become unplayable at 100 to 150 ms of lag |
| 21:19.24 | JeffM | valve has some good writeups on how they do it for FPS |
| 21:19.39 | blast007 | (or at least, you start to *really* see some fun issues) |
| 21:19.50 | JeffM | the goal is state consitency across all clients |
| 21:20.07 | blast007 | though the games generally don't show packet loss or jitter counts either, so I guess it could be those more than the latency |
| 21:20.12 | JeffM | so if you can get the error down to under a shot radius it usualy dosn't matter |
| 21:20.27 | JeffM | blast007, it gets bad because they allow instant dir changes |
| 21:20.40 | JeffM | having accleration in there helps smooth it a lot |
| 21:20.50 | blast007 | BZFlag makes some of this harder, like the one shot kills, and yeah, the instant direction changes |
| 21:20.58 | Constitution | pfft, what good is my 3,500 dpi mouse then? |
| 21:21.27 | JeffM | well you knew the answer to that when you bought it, nothing :) |
| 21:21.46 | JeffM | torands, there are a number of published methods we could use that would be much better then what is done now |
| 21:22.04 | JeffM | knowing what to do is not the hard part, it's the doing of it that takes time |
| 21:23.49 | blast007 | wonders when Mibbit started hosting their service on dial-up ;) |
| 21:24.29 | *** join/#bzflag torands (~Mibbit@MW-ESR1-72-49-214-248.fuse.net) |
| 21:24.34 | JeffM | speaking of packetloss |
| 21:24.48 | torands | yeah hi |
| 21:25.01 | JeffM | flakey network connection? |
| 21:25.58 | blast007 | Windows Me keeps needing a reboot |
| 21:26.09 | JeffM | he's on a mac |
| 21:26.12 | JeffM | so same thing |
| 21:26.14 | JeffM | ;) |
| 21:27.29 | torands | no forgot to plugin |
| 21:27.33 | JeffM | heh |
| 21:28.21 | torands | did you know the default mac "sleep" is actually hibernate |
| 21:28.27 | JeffM | yep |
| 21:28.45 | blast007 | facinating |
| 21:28.48 | JeffM | install caffeine |
| 21:29.01 | JeffM | lets you turn that off from the menu |
| 21:29.34 | torands | nah I'm a vanilla person |
| 21:29.47 | blast007 | you literally have to install a third party program to disable that? |
| 21:29.59 | JeffM | no, to make it easy |
| 21:30.03 | torands | why would you want to disable that? |
| 21:30.06 | JeffM | you can't ever actualy disable it |
| 21:30.12 | JeffM | you can just turn it off for a working session |
| 21:30.17 | JeffM | it also prevents the dimm |
| 21:30.43 | JeffM | you click a coffie cup when you know you are going to be working a long time |
| 21:30.47 | blast007 | and this is why I still use Windows... ;) |
| 21:30.53 | torands | ? |
| 21:30.56 | JeffM | oh I use windows on my mac too :) |
| 21:31.04 | JeffM | when ever I need to do real work |
| 21:31.21 | blast007 | hehehe |
| 21:31.56 | torands | funny, I use my mac whenever I do need to do real work |
| 21:31.59 | blast007 | I only ever used my mac for BZFlag, safari, Oni, and to watch Halo run slowly. |
| 21:32.29 | JeffM | torands, do you develop cross platform software much? |
| 21:33.03 | torands | If so I'll likely do Transmission style cross platform |
| 21:33.27 | torands | BSD,OSX,Linux |
| 21:33.43 | JeffM | aka console stuff :) |
| 21:33.57 | torands | not necessarily |
| 21:34.12 | blast007 | Transmission has a GUI as well |
| 21:34.38 | blast007 | Seems they have three kinds. Mac native, GTK+, and Qt (and console, and a nice Web UI) |
| 21:34.40 | JeffM | ahh |
| 21:34.47 | torands | yep |
| 21:34.59 | torands | have't tried the GTK one much |
| 21:35.05 | blast007 | I had compiled transmission for an embedded media box |
| 21:35.14 | torands | my linux box ran into non-booting issues |
| 21:35.16 | blast007 | but it kept running the system out of memory and locking up ;) |
| 21:37.31 | torands | really weird though, I can't even get GRUB working |
| 21:37.46 | torands | Stuck at "Grub Loading..." |
| 21:38.09 | torands | or the freebsd loader right before it actually starts loading stuff |
| 21:38.31 | torands | anyways, see ya all |
| 21:38.51 | *** part/#bzflag torands (~Mibbit@MW-ESR1-72-49-214-248.fuse.net) |
| 21:43.44 | JeffM | just rewrite bzflag in darkbasic |
| 21:43.51 | JeffM | then it'll be AWESOME! |
| 21:54.04 | Constitution | non-booting issues... I've heard those can actually dramatically affect machine usability |
| 21:58.28 | blast007 | they can, however, improve productivity by reducing time spent watching funny videos |
| 21:59.29 | JeffM | also increases network and application security |
| 22:00.21 | blast007 | unless the system has unsecured IPMI ;) |
| 22:01.39 | JeffM | it'll have those issues if it boots too |
| 22:01.47 | JeffM | so it's STILL an increase |
| 22:02.32 | JeffM | we sould make bzflag play like artemis |
| 22:02.41 | JeffM | and make it a true multiplayer game |
| 22:05.51 | JeffM | put 4 people in each tank |
| 22:08.21 | Constitution | we might actually need some lag comp in that case |
| 22:10.10 | JeffM | no you make them be in the same room with a projector :) |
| 22:10.17 | JeffM | go look up the artemis game, it's awesome |
| 22:10.23 | JeffM | we play it in our classrrom here |
| 22:10.59 | JeffM | 6 players, each running on station on the bridge of a starship |
| 22:11.37 | JeffM | 5 of the people have PCs with a display of the console they run (helm, eng, weapons) and the external view is projected on a screen in front of us all |
| 22:11.44 | JeffM | and the 6th player is the captain |
| 22:13.27 | Constitution | ah |
| 22:25.08 | *** join/#bzflag macsforme (~josh@bzflag/developer/Constitution) |
| 22:30.17 | blast007 | JeffM: that sounds, really really awesome. |
| 22:43.35 | JeffM | blast007, it isg great fun |
| 22:43.40 | JeffM | you get some pizzas |
| 22:43.50 | JeffM | someone shouts that she can't take much more of it |
| 22:44.03 | JeffM | you get to point and say "engage" |
| 22:44.34 | JeffM | and the game is like 40$, and that includes all 6 stations |
| 22:45.08 | JeffM | we turn the lights down and have it projected on a 108 inch screen at 1080p |
| 22:45.30 | JeffM | if the stations had touch screens it'd be better |
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| 23:54.43 | CIA-106 | BZFlag: 03Joevano 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r8305 10/Bz_BasePlayerRecord: Fix link to internal page reference style, remove hard coding to http://wiki.bzflag.org |