| 00:05.52 | *** join/#bzflag blast (~blast@bzflag/developer/Blast) |
| 00:05.52 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v blast] by ChanServ |
| 00:31.07 | joevano | 4 hours and the svn import is still running... I'm making progress |
| 00:36.19 | blast | ;D |
| 00:44.14 | *** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala) |
| 01:10.24 | blast | should we require authentication to play? almost thinking we should wait one more major version for that. |
| 01:11.04 | JeffM__ | probably |
| 01:11.07 | BulletCatcher | I think that should remain a server choice. |
| 01:11.51 | BulletCatcher | We could make it the default, though. |
| 01:12.09 | blast | yeah, was just thinking about how the menu could be different with the new system |
| 01:12.34 | blast | we could have a "Log In" option where you provide your account name and password. Then you can pick a callsign from your account to use. |
| 01:12.51 | blast | legacy clients would just use the callsign and account password |
| 01:13.51 | apeman_ | what game are you talking about? :P |
| 01:14.01 | blast | Minecraft |
| 01:22.14 | *** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala) |
| 01:25.03 | blast | meh.. google docs is lagging :? |
| 01:25.20 | blast | "trying to connect" and now I can't modify my document |
| 01:39.43 | drizzo4shizzo | I've got a non-git related thing to say. alert the media |
| 01:40.36 | drizzo4shizzo | I've got this issue with my plugin which causes occasionally clients to get a cracked windscreen and just drive in circles, unable to respawn... no idea what I'm doing that is causing it... |
| 01:41.02 | drizzo4shizzo | the only solution I can figure out is to quit and rejoin, which of course resets them to the first flag (gungame) |
| 01:41.06 | *** join/#bzflag swigg_ (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 01:41.34 | drizzo4shizzo | if anyone more familiar with the server logic might have seen something similar before, maybe they have some idea what might be causing it |
| 01:42.25 | blast | does your plugin kill players? |
| 01:45.44 | drizzo4shizzo | not currently |
| 01:45.49 | drizzo4shizzo | I don't think so |
| 01:45.53 | drizzo4shizzo | :) let me check |
| 01:46.43 | *** join/#bzflag swigg__ (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 01:47.07 | drizzo4shizzo | I do take their flag and give them flags |
| 01:47.23 | JeffM__ | that's not server logic that's client logic |
| 01:47.33 | JeffM__ | the server can't make a client drive anywhwere |
| 01:47.49 | blast | the client is getting shoved into the wrong playing state for some reason |
| 01:47.54 | JeffM__ | yeah |
| 01:48.06 | blast | probably the exploding state |
| 01:48.07 | drizzo4shizzo | oh wait I do kill players at the "end" |
| 01:48.13 | drizzo4shizzo | but that wasn't when it happened |
| 01:48.20 | drizzo4shizzo | it seems to happen when they die yes |
| 01:48.30 | JeffM__ | what does your plugin do? |
| 01:48.44 | JeffM__ | does it do anything special when they die? |
| 01:48.51 | drizzo4shizzo | it's the gungame thing on pocklips.planet-mofo.com port 4209 ;) |
| 01:48.55 | drizzo4shizzo | yes |
| 01:49.02 | drizzo4shizzo | there is a series of flags that you get |
| 01:49.03 | JeffM__ | what do you do? |
| 01:49.14 | drizzo4shizzo | when you die you get issued the same flag u had |
| 01:49.15 | JeffM__ | my guess is you are getting some things out of order |
| 01:49.18 | drizzo4shizzo | when you kill someone you move on to the next flag |
| 01:49.34 | JeffM__ | do you send that flag before they respawn? |
| 01:49.37 | drizzo4shizzo | it isn't super frequent that this happens |
| 01:49.39 | blast | I imagine you don't give them a flag when they die, but when they spawn next, right? :) |
| 01:49.56 | drizzo4shizzo | let me check |
| 01:50.19 | drizzo4shizzo | the only time I kill players is when someone *wins* by killing another player by smushing them with SR (the last flag) |
| 01:50.26 | drizzo4shizzo | then everyone else dies and it restarts with L |
| 01:50.45 | JeffM__ | when do you send the flag change back when they die? |
| 01:50.51 | JeffM__ | when they die or when they respawn? |
| 01:50.56 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm looking now |
| 01:51.14 | blast | is the plugin source in a repo somewhere? |
| 01:51.28 | drizzo4shizzo | yep |
| 01:51.32 | drizzo4shizzo | one sec |
| 01:51.54 | drizzo4shizzo | https://github.com/danryder/bzGunGameStyle |
| 01:52.15 | drizzo4shizzo | flag issued at spawn |
| 01:52.38 | JeffM__ | does the problem happen when they die or when they try to respawn? |
| 01:52.51 | drizzo4shizzo | I think its when they die |
| 01:52.55 | drizzo4shizzo | erk, not sure |
| 01:53.03 | JeffM__ | do you try to take the flag when they die? |
| 01:53.31 | JeffM__ | and you don't happen to be the owner of the 'BZflag' org on github are you? |
| 01:53.35 | drizzo4shizzo | no sorry |
| 01:53.40 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm not the mystery owner |
| 01:53.52 | JeffM__ | ask around ;) |
| 01:54.28 | drizzo4shizzo | no I don't take their flag when they die |
| 01:54.44 | JeffM__ | then you need to duplicate the problem in a debug client and see what is happening |
| 01:54.53 | JeffM__ | some part of the state is getting jacked up |
| 01:54.57 | JeffM__ | probably because a message |
| 01:55.17 | blast007 | my guess it's something lag dependent |
| 01:55.23 | JeffM__ | yeah |
| 01:55.28 | JeffM__ | something is happening out of order |
| 01:55.43 | apeman_ | i can confirm that that bug can happen without plugins (but very very very very very rarely) |
| 01:56.09 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah I'll see if I can gdb attach when it happens next |
| 01:56.17 | JeffM__ | then it's probably client bug |
| 01:56.22 | blast007 | I've seen the problem in the past where people had cheat clients that had unlimited jumps, and the issue would trigger if they hit the jump key after dying ;) |
| 01:56.45 | drizzo4shizzo | heh well my plugin is definitely *weird* in that it's doing stuff you would not expect |
| 01:56.48 | blast007 | but that was 1.7 era stuff |
| 01:57.16 | apeman_ | the bug has existed since before 2.0.10 |
| 01:57.33 | apeman_ | (as you'd expect of the whole physics logic :P ) |
| 01:57.42 | JeffM__ | a lot of the movmeent commands set specific flags, and the respawn request won't send if those ar set |
| 01:57.50 | JeffM__ | so if you get an out of order you can get into a jacked up state |
| 01:58.27 | apeman_ | what movement commands |
| 01:59.18 | JeffM__ | the messages that handle movment, flags, jumping |
| 01:59.26 | drizzo4shizzo | JeffM I don't quite understand but I feel like this is very much the issue :) |
| 01:59.52 | drizzo4shizzo | so if you're doing some kind of action when you die, you might not be able to respawn? |
| 02:00.14 | drizzo4shizzo | I wonder what about my plugin makes this more frequent |
| 02:00.19 | JeffM__ | probably |
| 02:00.26 | JeffM__ | the client state is very fragile |
| 02:00.28 | drizzo4shizzo | has anyone here tried it? :-P |
| 02:00.45 | JeffM__ | sending a lot of messages on death/spawn can get out of order |
| 02:01.05 | JeffM__ | and it can get you in a state where the client think's it's alive but not all the alive flags are set |
| 02:01.38 | JeffM__ | I've broken it many times in redoing the message buffers on the server |
| 02:02.01 | drizzo4shizzo | I don't think there are many messages here |
| 02:02.19 | drizzo4shizzo | well, if someone kills you they get a new flag |
| 02:02.31 | drizzo4shizzo | so I guess everyone gets an update of that |
| 02:02.35 | blast007 | iirc, in the Exploding state, the tank will have a set linear and angular velocity, and will still be affected by gravity. It should switch to the Dead state after the _explodeTime. However, if it's flipping into the Exploding state without actually exploding, then it might not be triggering the countdown or the explosion animation (and thus not triggering the explosion arc that would set the linear and angular velocity) |
| 02:03.07 | *** join/#bzflag unclelightning (~chatzilla@pool-70-16-103-209.port.east.myfairpoint.net) |
| 02:03.09 | JeffM__ | nyeah there are a bunch of flags like that controll |
| 02:03.34 | JeffM__ | and yeah you can't assume every message gets to the endpoint |
| 02:13.29 | drizzo4shizzo | so the current theory is that if I'm sending more flags than usual at a death event that could trigger this scenario "more" |
| 02:13.39 | drizzo4shizzo | not flags, messages |
| 02:13.44 | JeffM__ | possibly |
| 02:13.55 | JeffM__ | it's just guess |
| 02:13.59 | JeffM__ | debug it :) |
| 02:14.32 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah I'll have to recreate it |
| 02:14.57 | drizzo4shizzo | if I can attach to a running bzfs |
| 02:15.03 | blast | it's the client |
| 02:15.08 | drizzo4shizzo | oh :( |
| 02:15.12 | JeffM__ | yeah it's NOT going to be the server |
| 02:15.48 | drizzo4shizzo | just makes it that much longer to reproduce ;) |
| 02:16.02 | JeffM__ | nobody said development was easy ;) |
| 02:17.05 | drizzo4shizzo | so lets say I attach to this mythical client in a perfect vaccuum |
| 02:17.31 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm going to poke around and look to see what state it is -- any recommendations for what to look at? |
| 02:17.34 | JeffM__ | you can step through the main loop and check the the state |
| 02:18.02 | drizzo4shizzo | also, attaching to a client in-game -- what will that do, probably cause lots of lag warnings and then kick me? |
| 02:18.40 | JeffM__ | yeah but it won't matter you arn't senind real messags anyway, you want to see the state |
| 02:18.56 | drizzo4shizzo | alright |
| 02:20.22 | apeman_ | IMO half the problem is solved just by knowing whether its triggered by death or by spawn request |
| 02:20.25 | blast | disable the lag/jitter/loss kicks during the testing ;) |
| 02:21.47 | apeman_ | if i were to make a guess without justficiation/investigation, i'd say the problem is triggered by you trying to give flags to unspawned players |
| 02:22.35 | blast | drizzo4shizzo: have you had the issue happen to your own client? |
| 02:22.48 | drizzo4shizzo | yes |
| 02:22.52 | drizzo4shizzo | twice yesterday |
| 02:22.59 | drizzo4shizzo | unfortuantely I did not have the means to attach gdb at the time |
| 02:23.00 | JeffM__ | then sounds like it won't be too bad |
| 02:23.04 | drizzo4shizzo | I now might |
| 02:23.26 | drizzo4shizzo | yea it happens sometimes I should be able to get it to hapepn again |
| 02:23.47 | drizzo4shizzo | my concern is that even when it does, I'm not sure that looking at the client state will help tell me what to do differently int he plugin (on the server side) |
| 02:23.49 | blast | drizzo4shizzo: did it happen to you when you did, or when you tried to respawn? |
| 02:23.52 | blast | died* |
| 02:24.04 | drizzo4shizzo | I *think* it was when I died, but I always try to respawn immediately so... |
| 02:24.06 | JeffM__ | if you can know the state that is jacked you can find out what messages set it |
| 02:24.13 | Delusional | they get the cracked glass, but no explosion or gravity effects |
| 02:24.29 | drizzo4shizzo | yea they just drive in circles and can't respawn |
| 02:24.37 | drizzo4shizzo | also can't auto-destruct |
| 02:24.41 | drizzo4shizzo | I think |
| 02:24.48 | drizzo4shizzo | (I may have forgotten that key) |
| 02:24.50 | blast | Delusional: you mean they don't get the explosion arc, not that they don't get gravity effects, right? |
| 02:24.53 | JeffM__ | thats' what the debugger will tell you, what the client is thinking |
| 02:25.04 | Delusional | they appear to be NR, but can still talk |
| 02:25.14 | drizzo4shizzo | yea ppl tend to chat "hey can anyone see me"? |
| 02:25.17 | drizzo4shizzo | and the answer is "no" |
| 02:25.31 | blast | could see what the /kill command says about you as well |
| 02:25.39 | blast | see if the server thinks you're alive or dead |
| 02:25.54 | Delusional | they are still on radar, like they went nr |
| 02:26.22 | drizzo4shizzo | help me and delusional seed a game |
| 02:26.25 | blast | are their parts flying around on the ground, or are then in the black sphere? or neither of those? :) |
| 02:26.27 | drizzo4shizzo | it will only take about 3 minutes |
| 02:27.20 | drizzo4shizzo | I think asking questions of you guys is probably more effective than recreating the bug and debugging it, but thats just a guess |
| 02:27.29 | JeffM__ | oh god no |
| 02:27.32 | JeffM__ | dude debug it |
| 02:27.38 | JeffM__ | we can't guess at the state of the machine |
| 02:27.51 | JeffM__ | use the tools |
| 02:28.28 | drizzo4shizzo | I'll see if I can recreate it |
| 02:28.40 | apeman_ | Even if he finds the faulty client logic, what he really wants is to amend the plugin from triggering it |
| 02:28.57 | JeffM__ | when you know the cause, you can take action |
| 02:29.02 | blast | ghost in the machine - who ya gonna call? GNU DeBugger! |
| 02:29.55 | drizzo4shizzo | yes apeman |
| 02:30.03 | drizzo4shizzo | I need some workaround |
| 02:30.16 | drizzo4shizzo | like to avoid doing something that I'm doing or to increase a delay or something |
| 02:30.22 | JeffM__ | find the cause, do the work |
| 02:30.27 | JeffM__ | don't put the cart before the horse |
| 02:30.46 | drizzo4shizzo | heh lemme make sure I have debugging symbols here |
| 02:31.39 | apeman_ | i just asked a victim who claims that it is triggered by death and it coincides with when you try to jump just as you die (a bit like blast said) |
| 02:32.05 | JeffM__ | then get on in there and look at some states ;) |
| 02:32.08 | apeman_ | dunno if jumping has any relevance to drizzo4shizzo 's map/plugin though |
| 02:36.29 | drizzo4shizzo | ooh I think I did try to jump right then that one time ;) |
| 02:36.56 | drizzo4shizzo | quick question guys - I attached to the client with a breakpoint in playing.cxx at 3487 (looks like when you die) |
| 02:37.05 | drizzo4shizzo | I then shot myself and of course everything hung |
| 02:37.17 | drizzo4shizzo | I guess I should run it in a window? |
| 02:37.36 | blast | yeah, and disable the "Confine Mouse" option |
| 02:37.44 | drizzo4shizzo | it hit my breakpoint I just didn't know how to get back to gdb |
| 02:40.51 | Delusional | ok |
| 02:40.56 | drizzo4shizzo | alright looks like I'm cleared for debugging |
| 02:41.16 | drizzo4shizzo | ok delusional lets seed a game here... |
| 02:41.28 | drizzo4shizzo | this will only work if I can get this to happen to me |
| 02:41.38 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm going to try and jump a lot when I die |
| 02:41.57 | Delusional | just put it in auto.. i dont think it has anything to do with jumping |
| 02:42.09 | drizzo4shizzo | I think it might tho |
| 02:42.31 | drizzo4shizzo | also, I don't have a breakpoint for this, I have to wait for it to happen and then attach gdb |
| 02:44.12 | *** join/#bzflag tw1sted (~tw1sted@unaffiliated/tw1sted) |
| 02:44.37 | JeffM__ | you can't attach at the start and break at any time? |
| 02:45.25 | blast007 | looking through the code, here's the condition I would look for at first: the 'location' value of LocalPlayer is probably set to InAir while the 'state.status' of Player is set Exploding |
| 02:48.49 | drizzo4shizzo | hmm |
| 02:49.19 | blast007 | jumping sets the location to InAir, at least |
| 02:49.45 | drizzo4shizzo | even if that is the case |
| 02:49.53 | drizzo4shizzo | i'm not sure what the implications are for my plugin :-/ |
| 02:50.26 | blast007 | or wait, maybe I was looking at the code wrong.. hrm.. |
| 02:50.47 | blast007 | in any case, if jumping is triggering the issue, that means the location is being set to InAir |
| 02:53.46 | drizzo4shizzo | lol bzflag in a window with confine mouse off, within gnome 3 is... terrible |
| 02:53.49 | blast | I'm sure that'll be a fun one to track down |
| 02:54.19 | blast | switch to keyboard movement ;) |
| 02:54.28 | JeffM__ | works fine on windows, install that ;) |
| 03:01.01 | drizzo4shizzo | reproduced it, but in wrong client ;) |
| 03:01.07 | drizzo4shizzo | right on death |
| 03:43.43 | *** join/#bzflag sirquine (~quine@c-76-120-71-113.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:58.28 | unclelightning | i did it twice, and it happened when i was falling down into a shot and i was holding tab and firing at the same time |
| 03:58.35 | *** join/#bzflag barglfargl (~brglfrgl@66-168-203-39.dhcp.gsvl.ga.charter.com) |
| 04:01.17 | drizzo4shizzo | thanks all for helping |
| 04:01.31 | drizzo4shizzo | we did find that /kill doesn't work in this case |
| 04:01.38 | drizzo4shizzo | also that it happens right @death |
| 04:02.28 | drizzo4shizzo | it also seems to happen more on laggier clients, but no surprises there I guess |
| 04:02.57 | drizzo4shizzo | yet I could not reproduce it in my client despite my best jump/shoot/die/screenshot combos |
| 04:04.21 | drizzo4shizzo | oh yeah uncle - u were running a windows client right |
| 04:04.30 | drizzo4shizzo | so.. its a cross platform feature as well |
| 04:08.31 | JeffM__ | the messaging code is the same across all platforms |
| 04:09.48 | *** part/#bzflag barglfargl (~brglfrgl@66-168-203-39.dhcp.gsvl.ga.charter.com) |
| 04:12.45 | apeman_ | and no one else knows of this bug in general (on any map)? |
| 04:13.04 | drizzo4shizzo | well, you and delusional both said it can happen with no plugin |
| 04:13.40 | apeman_ | so isnt that problem resolved? :P |
| 04:14.37 | apeman_ | uncle lefrt |
| 04:14.40 | drizzo4shizzo | I feel like there is a joke here, but I'm not smart enough to figure it out |
| 04:14.52 | drizzo4shizzo | oh - yep. closed. WORKSFORME |
| 04:14.55 | drizzo4shizzo | :-P |
| 04:15.17 | allejo | tl;dr. the bug is a player dies and has a cracked screen but cannot spawn anymore, right? |
| 04:15.20 | apeman_ | i mean that its not related to your plugin and theres nothing you can do about it except wait for bz 2.4.4 |
| 04:15.34 | allejo | or silly tank game 1.0 |
| 04:15.37 | drizzo4shizzo | allejo: yes this is the bug |
| 04:15.51 | drizzo4shizzo | apeman: probably you are right but it is possible I am doing something silly |
| 04:16.10 | drizzo4shizzo | for example I try to give flags immediately. If that fails I do a delayed give |
| 04:16.20 | drizzo4shizzo | If the delayed give fails I set up for another delayed give |
| 04:16.23 | drizzo4shizzo | etc etc |
| 04:16.41 | apeman_ | that is silly but its not the cause :P |
| 04:16.48 | drizzo4shizzo | it seems like maybe if something else happens in the meantime it could be entering an inconsistent state, and that would be my fault potentially |
| 04:16.57 | allejo | ah that's happened to me before on hix where I die near a teleporter. it's like i die and get sealed before i'm able to respawn but i usually can spawn after a second or two delay |
| 04:17.02 | JeffM__ | well the game wasn't really designed to do what you are doing, I'm suprized it works |
| 04:17.30 | drizzo4shizzo | yes it "works" through a series of hacks :) but we just need... one... more... hack... :) |
| 04:17.52 | JeffM__ | the fix for this won't be something we can do with our a break |
| 04:17.56 | JeffM__ | it's a client problem |
| 04:18.20 | apeman_ | i wouldnt be surprised if its related to the fact that you can choose your motion just as the motion is being updated |
| 04:18.21 | drizzo4shizzo | I figured as much, but I'm not that familiar with the code |
| 04:18.25 | drizzo4shizzo | and I live in a glass house |
| 04:18.35 | JeffM__ | the sever does very little in the game |
| 04:19.04 | drizzo4shizzo | yea I'm confused about whats gonna happen moving forward |
| 04:19.15 | drizzo4shizzo | seems like we need to put more stuff on the server to eliminate cheating |
| 04:19.16 | allejo | the server... it... handles the id flag! and that's about it |
| 04:19.19 | drizzo4shizzo | but... |
| 04:19.20 | JeffM__ | the message system need to be redone |
| 04:19.32 | apeman_ | For example if your FPS is 1 and your first frame update is at t = 0, at t = 0.999 you can decide whether to jump or not, so you can stay on ground or air even though theres a disparity in the next 0.001 s |
| 04:19.32 | drizzo4shizzo | everything these days is moving to the client |
| 04:19.43 | JeffM__ | huh? |
| 04:20.07 | JeffM__ | everything is already on the client, we slowly try to move it to the server |
| 04:20.24 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah thats wat I saw on the roadmap |
| 04:20.59 | JeffM__ | but what di you mean by your statement that everyting is moving to the client |
| 04:21.07 | drizzo4shizzo | oh I wasnt talking about bzflag specifically |
| 04:21.23 | JeffM__ | I gathered that and you are super wrong |
| 04:21.29 | drizzo4shizzo | that is also likely |
| 04:21.34 | JeffM__ | have you heard about this 'cloud' thingy |
| 04:21.43 | JeffM__ | that's all server stuff |
| 04:21.50 | drizzo4shizzo | heh alright and xbox one with the render farm |
| 04:22.04 | JeffM__ | yeah you want really dumb clients |
| 04:22.07 | drizzo4shizzo | but its amazing what ppl do these days with javascript |
| 04:22.17 | drizzo4shizzo | which of course could be on the server too (gag!) |
| 04:22.19 | JeffM__ | that's just gui code |
| 04:22.24 | drizzo4shizzo | haha not anymore man |
| 04:22.28 | JeffM__ | the real work is done on the backend |
| 04:22.34 | drizzo4shizzo | that is exactly how I feel about it too but... |
| 04:22.40 | drizzo4shizzo | have you heard of angular? |
| 04:22.51 | JeffM__ | dude, nobody does anyting important on the client, it's a huge security flaw |
| 04:22.58 | JeffM__ | those that do are stupid |
| 04:23.09 | apeman_ | like Xbox games dying if not connected to internet! |
| 04:23.14 | drizzo4shizzo | thats kinda what I told him |
| 04:23.16 | drizzo4shizzo | but |
| 04:23.25 | drizzo4shizzo | suppose that was not necessarily the case |
| 04:23.37 | JeffM__ | and those games do the multiplayer stuff on the server |
| 04:23.38 | drizzo4shizzo | like if you could sign stuff or something |
| 04:23.47 | JeffM__ | signing dosn't do crap with networking |
| 04:23.55 | JeffM__ | you can NEVER trust a client |
| 04:24.08 | JeffM__ | signing just lets a client know it's not modified |
| 04:24.14 | JeffM__ | the server can't know if the client is unmodified |
| 04:24.53 | JeffM__ | apeman_, they removed that restricton, and the PS4 had it too, it was just up to the publisher not the console maker |
| 04:26.25 | alpha1-2 | As far I know, distributed is better than centralized. Not in the case of databases and filesystems that, obviously, it's better centralized. |
| 04:26.38 | drizzo4shizzo | jeffm - check this out |
| 04:26.40 | JeffM__ | dosn't work that way for all things |
| 04:26.43 | drizzo4shizzo | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AngularJS |
| 04:26.52 | drizzo4shizzo | I am not a javascript guy at all, so this kinda blows my mind |
| 04:26.52 | JeffM__ | I don't care about javascript |
| 04:26.59 | drizzo4shizzo | heh |
| 04:27.00 | JeffM__ | you can do anything with any langauge |
| 04:27.18 | drizzo4shizzo | well this is shifting business logic to the client |
| 04:27.32 | JeffM__ | and sure that's just a MVC, you put the V and C on the client and the M in the cloud |
| 04:27.39 | JeffM__ | no, no it's not |
| 04:27.45 | JeffM__ | more logic is going to the cloud |
| 04:27.57 | JeffM__ | when's the last time you had to buy an accounting systems? |
| 04:28.25 | JeffM__ | that system is just to make a web client more responsive, it's still highly tied to the server |
| 04:28.43 | JeffM__ | you can't do anything that can have security rampfications on the client |
| 04:28.57 | JeffM__ | you can view a model and send commands to manipulate it. |
| 04:29.07 | JeffM__ | but the model exists on the server |
| 04:29.24 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah models is the part of Django I was pretty sure this would not touch |
| 04:29.44 | JeffM__ | you know what the parts of a MVC are right? |
| 04:30.21 | drizzo4shizzo | haha you just listed them |
| 04:30.29 | JeffM__ | but do you know what they MEAN |
| 04:30.54 | drizzo4shizzo | I thought I saw something about moving business logic |
| 04:31.28 | drizzo4shizzo | on closer inspection you're right though - it looks like that will still be on the server |
| 04:31.48 | JeffM__ | and one lib does not mean that everyon is doing that, looks like google uses that to make things like google docs run faster |
| 04:31.58 | JeffM__ | yeah the cloud is where the important bit is, the data |
| 04:32.06 | JeffM__ | it used to be on the client |
| 04:32.21 | JeffM__ | now it's all going server side, has been for years |
| 04:32.35 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm with you on that, it just seems like more and more happens in the client with all the APIs exposing data to them |
| 04:32.37 | JeffM__ | in the begining you only had one computer, the mainframe |
| 04:32.52 | JeffM__ | I have no idea where you are getting that notion from |
| 04:33.06 | JeffM__ | just because a client has an API dosn't mean it owns the data |
| 04:33.24 | JeffM__ | and most API's are server side, like soap interfaces, json, etc.. |
| 04:33.25 | alpha1-2 | since the desktop computers becoming more and mor powerful from many yeasr ago |
| 04:33.28 | drizzo4shizzo | not owns no, but that doesn't mean it has no functionality either |
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| 04:33.46 | JeffM__ | alpha1-2, yet everyone works on tablets these days |
| 04:33.50 | apeman_ | looks like he's referring to the trend of jailbreaking |
| 04:34.14 | drizzo4shizzo | haha nobody I know works on tablets |
| 04:34.32 | JeffM__ | most biz apps are now browser based |
| 04:34.38 | JeffM__ | and managed from an application server |
| 04:35.17 | alpha1-2 | JeffM__: yes, like your and mine desktop *more powerful* machines we both have? |
| 04:35.22 | JeffM__ | there has been a trend to thin clients over the past decade |
| 04:35.24 | alpha1-2 | my* |
| 04:35.35 | JeffM__ | alpha1-2, sure, and most people don't need that power |
| 04:35.39 | JeffM__ | to check email and facebook |
| 04:35.44 | JeffM__ | or enter orders |
| 04:36.02 | JeffM__ | content creators tend to use higher end systems |
| 04:36.13 | JeffM__ | and developers |
| 04:36.23 | JeffM__ | but the end user trend is to cloud services |
| 04:36.44 | alpha1-2 | apeman_: "trend of jailbreaking"? what do you mean? |
| 04:37.05 | JeffM__ | apeman_, there is no trend in jailbreaking most people just give apple a buck |
| 04:37.18 | khonkhortisan | an os that can be jailbroken, is jailbroken. |
| 04:37.31 | apeman_ | an example like people hacking the Kinect so microsoft decides to release an API |
| 04:37.32 | khonkhortisan | one that cannot, is not. |
| 04:37.55 | JeffM__ | that's just modern retractive responsiblity in company management |
| 04:38.02 | JeffM__ | and a smart call on MSs part |
| 04:38.25 | JeffM__ | you WANT people to use things |
| 04:38.36 | JeffM__ | but really that's a developer trend, not an end user trend |
| 04:39.09 | JeffM__ | end users are much more common then developers |
| 04:39.21 | alpha1-2 | I am not in accord with the idea of "if you don't have Internet, you can't do anything" |
| 04:39.41 | JeffM__ | for a compnay application, why not |
| 04:40.17 | JeffM__ | and really the majority of people have it |
| 04:41.16 | JeffM__ | there were some valid reasons for what MS choice, it's just the world isn't ready for that |
| 04:41.34 | JeffM__ | developers can do a lot if they can assume internet |
| 04:42.10 | JeffM__ | and it's a good way to protect your closed source softfware |
| 04:42.29 | JeffM__ | people don't make game consoles just to be nice :) |
| 04:43.14 | alpha1-2 | oh.... excuse me but you JeffM__ talk much for me (part of my limite about language, part cause you talk much ;) |
| 04:43.24 | JeffM__ | it's ok |
| 04:44.16 | drizzo4shizzo | I personally hate always-on DRM but maybe I'm just a dreamer |
| 04:44.35 | JeffM__ | people want to be paid for what they have made :) |
| 04:44.54 | JeffM__ | just some people take it a bit too seriously |
| 04:44.55 | drizzo4shizzo | people want to use what they have purchased :-( |
| 04:45.04 | JeffM__ | you didn't purchase your software |
| 04:45.07 | JeffM__ | you licensed it |
| 04:45.28 | JeffM__ | but yes you have to balance your DRM needs and your end user needs |
| 04:45.44 | drizzo4shizzo | and I clicked the EULA too but that doesn't mean I have to like it right |
| 04:45.46 | JeffM__ | companies are still trying to figure out that ballance |
| 04:45.56 | JeffM__ | you don't have to like what you agree to ;) |
| 04:46.51 | alpha1-2 | I understand hat Internet is very important, and that the technology is advancing (not as hardly as it appears to be), but in the other hand, the useful of your desktop/notebook/netbook/smartphone/tablet/etc isn't something minor ad yu can work IN A LOT OF THINGS, without th need of be connected to Internet. |
| 04:46.55 | alpha1-2 | that* |
| 04:47.16 | alpha1-2 | and you* |
| 04:47.44 | drizzo4shizzo | cuttlefish and asparagus is not sittting well! |
| 04:47.47 | JeffM__ | sure for some things yes, for others no. Central document storage in google docs, yes, playing pong on a game console no |
| 04:48.25 | JeffM__ | that's the balance game |
| 04:49.17 | JeffM__ | from the game publisher's standpoint, being conencted to the internet is great, WoW is the least pirated and most profitable game of all time :) |
| 04:51.33 | drizzo4shizzo | so JeffM do you also feel the same about DRM on digital media |
| 04:51.56 | JeffM__ | I understand why a publisher may want it |
| 04:52.02 | JeffM__ | and it does make sense for many things |
| 04:52.03 | drizzo4shizzo | yes the arguments for it are similar |
| 04:52.17 | drizzo4shizzo | I hate how it punishes the law abiding consumer |
| 04:52.24 | JeffM__ | yeah that's the ballance |
| 04:52.39 | drizzo4shizzo | with games / software its almost something you could choose to ignore |
| 04:52.43 | drizzo4shizzo | with movies, its right in your face |
| 04:52.59 | JeffM__ | well that time is nearing an end |
| 04:53.08 | JeffM__ | physical media won't last another 5 years |
| 04:53.08 | drizzo4shizzo | with streaming? |
| 04:53.11 | JeffM__ | it'll go streaming |
| 04:53.11 | JeffM__ | yeah |
| 04:53.39 | JeffM__ | again moving it to the server:) |
| 04:53.40 | alpha1-2 | excuse me, WoW was (is still) possible to play offline right? (in the start, without thinking in net right)? |
| 04:53.51 | drizzo4shizzo | it is nice to just stream something, but I still like to own the box. guess I"m just old :-| |
| 04:53.59 | JeffM__ | alpha1-2, oh god no, it's never been offline |
| 04:54.07 | JeffM__ | it's a online multiplayer game |
| 04:54.16 | drizzo4shizzo | well maybe briefly, where you just go in circles and can't respawn |
| 04:54.20 | JeffM__ | drizzo4shizzo, you don't own the box, you license it ;) |
| 04:54.24 | drizzo4shizzo | noooooo |
| 04:54.32 | JeffM__ | yep |
| 04:54.44 | JeffM__ | hence why they can put restrictions on how you use it |
| 04:54.49 | JeffM__ | you can't boradcast it over TV |
| 04:54.50 | drizzo4shizzo | the box is MINE its MINE I own the cardboard!!! OMG its all I have left |
| 04:54.59 | JeffM__ | or license it to anyone else ;) |
| 04:55.01 | JeffM__ | heh |
| 04:55.32 | JeffM__ | alpha1-2, the tend in games is to add online features, more people are expecting it, once you do that then it seems justified to have it always online ;) |
| 04:55.47 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm pretty sure I can't rewatch this broadcast without express written consent of the National Football League. They should be so lucky giving their advertisers another pass. |
| 04:55.58 | JeffM__ | exactly |
| 04:57.06 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm going to go sleep in a bed that until recently I thought I owned. But now I realize we just rent everything. Shadows and Dust. |
| 04:57.14 | JeffM__ | see ya |
| 04:57.35 | drizzo4shizzo | ciao |
| 05:00.02 | alpha1-2 | "Although Warcraft: Orcs & Humans was not the first RTS title to offer multiplayer games"... I had understood that it could offer offline game (like C&C), I am not sure about first versions ofWoW :P |
| 05:00.19 | JeffM__ | Warcarft is not the same as World of Warcraft |
| 05:00.34 | alpha1-2 | ahhhh |
| 05:00.36 | apeman_ | :O they arent |
| 05:00.47 | apeman_ | all my assumptions are ruined |
| 05:00.52 | JeffM__ | warcraft is an RTS |
| 05:01.02 | JeffM__ | wow is a MMORPG |
| 05:01.30 | JeffM__ | it can not possibly work with out a network connection |
| 05:01.34 | JeffM__ | it's a persitent world |
| 05:02.34 | JeffM__ | bzflag is efectivly unplayable with out an internet connection |
| 05:02.46 | alpha1-2 | well, what I supposed to say is that AT START I lived that moment) it was offline/online game if I am not wrong |
| 05:03.11 | JeffM__ | many games are offline still but the trend (direction it is moving) is online |
| 05:03.26 | alpha1-2 | and after, it offer an ONLY ONLINE feature lik you say |
| 05:03.33 | alpha1-2 | offers* |
| 05:03.45 | alpha1-2 | if I am not wrong again |
| 05:03.58 | JeffM__ | sure, people are starting to expect those features, online character storage, multiplayer etc.. |
| 05:04.56 | JeffM__ | your big shooters all have weak single player games and focus on multiplayer |
| 05:05.46 | alpha1-2 | but not in al cases, I have still good gams that not offer net capabilities and it isn't something SINE QUA NON that you have to have in all your game |
| 05:06.02 | alpha1-2 | games* |
| 05:06.03 | JeffM__ | oh no not in all, it's just a trend |
| 05:06.22 | JeffM__ | and it's not going to get smaller |
| 05:06.54 | alpha1-2 | it's somethig dangerous TO GENERALIZE all situations. There are things for all tases :) |
| 05:07.02 | alpha1-2 | tastes* |
| 05:07.53 | alpha1-2 | apeman_: "all my assumptions are ruined" what do you mean? deception? :) |
| 05:08.01 | JeffM__ | he was making a joke |
| 05:08.16 | alpha1-2 | ok :) |
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| 05:17.25 | JeffM__ | github has sent my message to the owner of the bzflag org |
| 05:20.26 | alpha1-2 | I have this pending from before conversation: A good situation for make dumb clients is when you have some old hardware (computers without hard disks, for example) and you want to use them and then you buy a good server, and serve them. It allows to use them as normal desktops but using the server capabilities (for example: O.S., Office Suite, Internet, etc.). They boot, inclusive, remotely. |
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| 05:23.14 | apeman__ | whats the deal with some project on github? |
| 05:23.33 | JeffM__ | the organisation name "BZFlag" is already taken |
| 05:23.58 | JeffM__ | we are trying to figure out who owns it |
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| 05:25.00 | apeman__ | why, you want to move to git? |
| 05:25.15 | JeffM | we want to move to not SourceForge |
| 05:25.31 | JeffM | and github has an ever so slightly better featureset then bitbucket |
| 05:26.20 | alpha1-2 | (how many apemans do we have? :P) |
| 05:26.21 | apeman__ | whats wrong with sourceforge |
| 05:26.30 | JeffM | it is getting worse and worse |
| 05:26.34 | JeffM | the issue tracker sucks |
| 05:26.43 | JeffM | the user management sucks |
| 05:26.49 | JeffM | it ain't fast |
| 05:27.13 | JeffM | it just keeps getting worse |
| 05:28.24 | JeffM | the current plan is to split up the repository into chunks and move the main game and services to github and work on the breaking release there |
| 05:29.09 | alpha1-2 | (sorry I was confused with drizzo4shizzo's goodbye) |
| 05:33.10 | JeffM | apeman__, you prefer sourceforge? |
| 05:34.30 | apeman__ | No. Just curious. (I never used much sourceforge browsing code and tickets) |
| 05:34.40 | apeman__ | ^except |
| 05:36.50 | JeffM | the github issue tracker is quite nice |
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| 06:13.12 | apeman_ | any particular reason why bz uses g++ -O2 optimisation not -O3? |
| 06:14.34 | JeffM | O3 was invented by the lizard people, it is evil! |
| 06:14.53 | BulletCatcher | Some -O3 optimizations are more experimental than those in -O2. |
| 06:15.44 | JeffM | you can always build your own wiht O3 |
| 06:15.46 | BulletCatcher | It probably doesn't really matter. |
| 06:16.07 | BulletCatcher | (doesn't matter for speed or reliability) |
| 06:22.24 | Notify | 03BZFlag:bullet_catcher * 22827 trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: Remove the updateNumPlayers() subroutine, which does nothing useful. |
| 06:28.08 | apeman_ | it also seems no one loves c++11 enough to use it yet ;) |
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| 06:28.19 | apeman_ | in bz that is |
| 06:28.53 | JeffM | then you don't read very well ;) |
| 06:29.09 | JeffM | the server uses it a little |
| 06:29.11 | JeffM | we are just starting |
| 06:29.17 | BulletCatcher | Try compiling without it, apeman_. :-) |
| 06:30.34 | apeman_ | greps for use of the keyword "auto", finds nothing |
| 06:30.49 | JeffM | you think that's the only reason to use c++11? |
| 06:31.01 | apeman_ | also i can compile with gcc 4.4 so no ones using lambdas |
| 06:31.01 | JeffM | shared_ptr FTW!!! |
| 06:32.52 | JeffM | yeah no lambdas yet |
| 06:33.05 | JeffM | std::function would probalby be next |
| 06:33.13 | apeman_ | i dont see any c++0x-only features in the code |
| 06:33.17 | JeffM | k |
| 06:33.36 | apeman_ | of course it uses c++ if thats what you were saying :P |
| 06:33.54 | JeffM | no, I am the one that added it :) |
| 06:33.59 | apeman_ | im talking about the -std=c++0x flag |
| 06:34.10 | JeffM | I know exactly waht you are talking about |
| 06:34.23 | apeman_ | facepalm i make the same mistake again. I havent updated in months |
| 06:34.34 | JeffM | bingo! |
| 06:35.30 | JeffM | shot manager should use shared_ptr |
| 06:35.50 | apeman_ | hmm but its still compilable using MSVC2010? |
| 06:36.10 | JeffM | sure, vc10 supports a heck of a lot of C++11 |
| 06:36.29 | apeman_ | it also lacks a lot (like lambdas and for_each) |
| 06:36.35 | JeffM | huh? |
| 06:36.41 | apeman_ | maybe not for_each |
| 06:36.44 | JeffM | huh? |
| 06:36.50 | apeman_ | ? |
| 06:36.56 | JeffM | wonders what he uses at work every day then ;) |
| 06:37.16 | apeman_ | i must be misremembering |
| 06:37.24 | JeffM | maybe you haven't updated in a while |
| 06:37.35 | JeffM | it's got pretty decent support |
| 06:38.05 | JeffM | 2012 has even more |
| 06:38.33 | BulletCatcher | We use -std=c++0x instead of -std=c++11 on unix systems to allow the use of slightly older compiler versions. |
| 06:38.34 | BulletCatcher | Either standard works with our existing code. |
| 06:39.17 | apeman_ | oh right, i was thinking initializer lists, which i like |
| 06:42.09 | JeffM | how do you get that and for_each mixed up? |
| 06:42.38 | apeman_ | lack of either would almost prevent me from choosing MSVC2010 |
| 06:42.44 | JeffM | ok |
| 06:42.53 | JeffM | it'll live ;) |
| 06:43.08 | JeffM | vc10 isn't even the current version |
| 06:43.47 | apeman_ | i have vc2012 too, but not too easy to setup with some projects |
| 06:44.17 | JeffM | I didn't think they changed the project structure that much |
| 06:44.42 | JeffM | 13 supports your initalizer lists |
| 06:44.46 | apeman_ | more specifically e.g. linking with opencv |
| 06:52.38 | JeffM | I should check to see what compilers support std::thread |
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| 17:46.10 | BulletCatcher | TimRiker, ns.mecworks.com has been down for at least a couple of weeks. |
| 17:46.14 | BulletCatcher | The ns.mecworks.com TTL from the root nameservers is much longer than the authoritative TTLs of the other nameservers, causing occasional lookup failures for some clients when ns.mecworks.com is the only NS host left in the cache. |
| 17:46.19 | BulletCatcher | Please remove its NS record from the bzflag.org and bzflag.net zones for the benefit of the players. |
| 17:46.20 | BulletCatcher | We have some options if you want to replace it with something else. |
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| 20:30.15 | MPC | hi |
| 20:30.39 | MPC | this Game is still alive?! |
| 20:31.07 | MPC | played it 15 years ago or so... |
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