IRC log for #bzflag on 20130728

00:00.07alpha1-2it is an aproximation yes
00:00.40alpha1-2thnaks
00:00.44alpha1-2thanks*
00:00.54alpha1-2I only have linux here
00:00.57JeffMwonders why people fear the debugger
00:01.01alpha1-2another player did the windows test
00:01.13JeffMthen you had no way to verify that the input and settings were the same.......
00:01.26alpha1-2not settings ofc
00:01.33JeffMso you automaticly assumed that it was windows that was different, not the user......?
00:01.34alpha1-2I can ask for it anyways
00:01.41alpha1-2but the same cahce limit yes
00:01.46alpha1-2cache*
00:01.51alpha1-2I told u the values
00:01.53alpha1-2tell*
00:02.02alpha1-2linux : 8,14 PDF pages
00:02.08JeffMand I kept asking if the input was the same ;)
00:02.10alpha1-2windows: 55 PDF pages
00:02.13JeffMthat's output
00:02.15alpha1-2huge no? :)
00:02.16JeffMwho cares about output
00:02.29JeffMthere is no way to compare those with out knowing what the input is
00:04.08alpha1-2I said u that I dont know for now the windows config values, but I know the both linux/windows cache size (theoretically the same, the full limit)
00:04.34JeffMA car in germany and a car in america get vastly different gas millage, gas in germany must be better... exccept that the american car is a truck
00:05.01JeffMat the point where you didn't know the input you should have stoped trying to find the difference ;)
00:05.02alpha1-2U dont understand me :).... blast do you?
00:05.07blast007alpha1-2: http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml#overviewofthescientificmethod
00:05.20blast007"You conduct a fair test by making sure that you change only one factor at a time while keeping all other conditions the same."
00:05.23JeffMoh I undertand exactly what you thouht you were doing, and I am saying it was wrong to go down that path.
00:05.39JeffMyou went on the size of the buffer
00:05.43JeffMthinking it had to be that
00:05.51blast007BZFlag may very well run withing Wine
00:05.56blast007within*
00:05.56JeffMbefore you verifed the input
00:06.25JeffMyou can only start to compare things to find differences when you know they are similar
00:06.31alpha1-2yes I have it running inside wine too
00:06.48JeffMyou did not do the work to find out if they were simiar from the start, so looking for a difference at the end is pointless
00:07.14JeffMneeds to go make beer
00:07.37alpha1-2but today I had an opportunity to have a real windows test and I used it
00:07.55alpha1-2all are invited to my post BTW ;)
00:08.23alpha1-2I have to add for ask Mac tests too (as 1 player today needed it)
00:08.31alpha1-2asking*
00:08.58JeffMit is a more popular client OS then linux
00:09.23alpha1-2<PROTECTED>
00:09.38JeffMnope
00:09.48alpha1-2tell me some numbers if u have them
00:09.49JeffMwindows, OSX, linux for clients
00:10.18JeffMlast check showed about 51-55% windows, 26-28% osx, and the rest linux and others
00:10.23JeffMit would be nice to get a new list
00:10.32JeffMas that was about a year ago
00:10.36alpha1-2from where those results?
00:10.43JeffMOSX has been gaining on linux for a while
00:10.49JeffMclients connecting to a popular server
00:11.00JeffMbased on the client version string
00:11.06alpha1-2like which one?
00:11.14JeffMIIRC it was one of blasts
00:11.23alpha1-2HIX?
00:11.25JeffMI would like a new one from the top servers now
00:11.28alpha1-2style*
00:11.33JeffMI don't recall the exact map
00:11.39alpha1-2what time ago?
00:11.42JeffMas I said it was a bout a year ago
00:11.45alpha1-2how long*
00:11.49JeffMread:)
00:12.00alpha1-2oh ok
00:12.15alpha1-2u talk a lot I told it already :D
00:12.30JeffMI have seen reports over the years form several server sources and they all seem to show the same trend
00:12.43alpha1-2but dont worry, I am getting training (phew phew!)
00:12.44JeffMOSX slowly eating away at linux and windos
00:12.57JeffMnow for servers linux wins hands down
00:13.11JeffMlinux, then osx, then maybe a windows or solaris one every so often
00:13.38alpha1-2ok, but u say: 50 win, 25 mac and 25 others.... those others surely are 95 % linux , man ;)
00:13.57alpha1-2so, no really big differences
00:14.00alpha1-2not+
00:14.03blast007don't know if it would have been one of my game servers, as I don't track the version string
00:14.24JeffMmaybe it was dtr then
00:14.30JeffMcan you track the version string blast007 ?
00:14.37blast007possibly
00:14.39JeffMit'd be nice to have a modern report
00:14.48blast007but my server isn't all that popular anymore
00:15.05JeffMtrue, but you are the best server admin we got :)
00:15.19alpha1-2if u want some popular, u can choose HIX or DUC IMO
00:15.21JeffMI could probably ask mofo for one
00:15.25DTRemenakI haven't run servers for like 6 years (but yes, I did track version strings when I was doing so)
00:15.30JeffMk
00:15.36JeffMthen maybe it was longer ago then I thought
00:15.40blast007if I update my shiny plugin, I could make it track the client version
00:15.40DTRemenakfigured we had enough servers ;)
00:15.44JeffMsomeone gave me numbers recently, in the last 2 years
00:15.45blast007and mofo runs that plugin
00:15.52JeffMcool
00:16.04JeffMI_Died_Once, Delusional wanna get some data for me?
00:16.09alpha1-2but u need to have a HIX/DUC group of servers, because people go and back from one server to another
00:16.24alpha1-2very often
00:16.39blast007hmm, or maybe I already do report that to my web server
00:16.48JeffMwhat server is at the top of the list right now?
00:16.51Delusionalwe cam gre[ some logs
00:17.13JeffMoh crap.. he said grep, he's excited
00:17.22JeffMeven if he did forget to bring me a stock pot
00:17.44JeffMhmm but he did fix my busted code
00:17.58DTRemenakdidn't say grep :)
00:18.16JeffMyou meant to say grep but your freaky mechanical keyboard betrayed you
00:18.24JeffMor it was the cat
00:18.25DTRemenakpoints at Delusional
00:18.31JeffMbahh
00:18.36JeffMis way out of it today
00:18.36DTRemenaknice try though :)
00:18.46alpha1-2you could do a both side tests (apoc and GU/DUC)
00:18.47JeffMit's too hot
00:18.55JeffMDelusional, do you save client version?
00:19.03Delusionali think so
00:19.07JeffMcool
00:19.24JeffMif you don't mind I'd'm looking to see how many windows, linux, and OSX clients you guys get
00:19.33blast007seems I've not been storing the build string, shucks
00:20.10blast007would be interesting to set the cURL user agent string to the client version ;)
00:20.12JeffMgoes to buy food and beer water
00:20.37JeffMblast007, that's what I'm doing for the windows client when it uses the windows URL stuff
00:20.45blast007neat
00:20.46alpha1-2beer water is expensive, just choose normal one ;)
00:21.06JeffMalpha1-2, no it's water to make beer
00:21.18alpha1-2ohh *facepalm*
00:21.21JeffMI only need 3 gallons, so like 3$
00:21.35alpha1-2I thought an euphemism to say beer :P
00:22.01alpha1-2what kind of special water is it?
00:22.09JeffMjust filtered water
00:22.16alpha1-2oh *facepalm* again
00:22.20JeffM3 gallons tap, 3 gallons filtered
00:22.22alpha1-2he he he
00:22.45JeffMboil the tap, make the wort, fill to 5 with the filtered
00:23.26JeffMand I'll let surgeon simulator 2013 run in the background so I can get cards :)
00:24.44alpha1-2cruel!
00:25.07Delusionalno, i am sorry, we are not currently saving client strings. I'm pretty sure we werem up to about 2 months ago. U'll try to get some older logs
00:25.21JeffMok, no biggie if you can't
00:25.25JeffMI'm just curious
00:25.35JeffMit's been a while since we had someone run the numbers
00:25.43blast007I'll be enabling the recording of the string in my database shortly
00:25.50blast007maybe tomorrow
00:28.50*** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (~TD-Linux@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux)
00:38.14DelusionalI have three year old logs that saved the client string.
00:38.22Delusionalnot that that helps
00:54.25JeffMand there we go, beer ingredients aquired
00:55.29JeffMwhat the heck am I going to do with 2lbs of meadowfoam honey that's left over
00:56.41blast007eat it, of course
00:57.05JeffMthats a lot of crackers
00:57.10JeffMdunno what it tastes like
00:57.21blast007"Meadowfoam Honey is not only tasty, with a flavor akin to vanilla marshmallows, but it is also environmentally friendly!"
00:57.43blast007save the whales! eat Meadowfoam Honey!
00:57.48JeffMmashmellows.. in beer wtf
01:36.34*** join/#bzflag drizzo4shizzo (~dan@pool-72-83-136-195.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
02:13.40*** join/#bzflag brad_ (~brad@188.66.112.87.dyn.plus.net)
02:16.06*** join/#bzflag brad_ (~brad@87.115.107.190)
03:01.45allejosave the whales!
03:31.52*** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (~gnurdux@c-67-186-57-145.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
04:06.01*** join/#bzflag brad (~brad@94.69.125.91.dyn.plus.net)
04:06.02*** join/#bzflag brad (~brad@unaffiliated/brad)
04:21.47javawizardConstitution: ping
04:27.16*** join/#bzflag alpha1-2 (~nb_j@host203.190-230-164.telecom.net.ar)
04:30.12alpha1-2I got the reponse! just the other player pasted aprox 3 times the same msglog to pastebin :D
04:30.24alpha1-2so, according to my fast calculations, the difference between both logs versions is around just 1/2, not 1/7, and i think that it is cause of the size/resolution config
04:30.55alpha1-2now i can sleepin peace ;) (joke)
04:31.22alpha1-2I was having a look to the whole 55 PDF pages :P
04:32.22alpha1-2and I saw some weird sign in the logs, this one :
04:32.29alpha1-2----------------------------------------
04:32.30alpha1-2Messages saved: Sat Jul 27 23:03:56 2013
04:32.32alpha1-2----------------------------------------
04:32.45alpha1-2and after the log started again
04:32.49alpha1-2*facepalm*
04:33.13alpha1-2not my fault BTW :)
04:34.10JeffMalways verify your inputs :)
04:34.47alpha1-2how can I imagine that the other player just pasted 3 times the same log :)
04:34.51alpha1-2could*
04:34.57JeffMyou could have asked ;)
04:36.40alpha1-2well, that was a long way to obtain the log, so I supposed all good.... I have learned the lesson
04:37.03alpha1-2ofc , 1/7 was too much!
04:37.49alpha1-2well, anyways I have the script tested with windows output and it worked fine!
05:00.45*** join/#bzflag dcat (~dcat@c-98-244-106-246.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
05:10.53alpha1-2I have still a doubt... if you have the ANSIFilter source code for example, that it isn't a complex code, and you have gcc for Mac OS X, then, will you be able to make the code to work, though not compiled version for Mac? I mean, any not complex/critic code will work in any platform if you just obtain the compiler?
05:11.11alpha1-2critical*
05:21.15*** join/#bzflag macsforme (~josh@bzflag/developer/Constitution)
05:26.25JeffMOsX works like linux
05:26.49alpha1-2ok
05:27.02alpha1-2then it is the same code fo BZ for example?
05:27.33alpha1-2though BZ is some complex or very
05:27.51alpha1-2or complex*
05:28.32JeffMI don't understand why you think complexity has anything to do with it
05:28.44JeffMit has to do with what API you use
05:29.03JeffMdid you use anything other then standard C? or C++
05:30.24alpha1-2I learned both C and C++ at University
05:30.32alpha1-2and Java
05:30.55JeffMdoes it use GTK, or QT or any linux specific APIs?
05:31.33alpha1-2I don't understand your question
05:31.51alpha1-2I know about GTK and QT
05:32.14JeffMthe ANSIFilter code you are talking about, making it compile on other OSs
05:32.33JeffMa compiler for C compiles code the same on all platforms
05:32.36JeffMit has to
05:32.52alpha1-2ok
05:33.01JeffMthats why C and C++ are standards
05:33.10JeffMthe only differences in platform would be for other APIs
05:33.20JeffMones that are not part of the standard
05:35.01alpha1-2wait m please, i am searching fo something...
05:35.59alpha1-2oh ok, I am unedrsanding
05:36.47JeffMi = 0; i++; better end up being 1 on every platform ;)
05:37.00JeffMno mater how much code you put around it :)
05:37.11alpha1-2well, we were talking about with blas-t about PDFCreator that is a little more complex because it is like a driver, imitating a printer behaviour
05:37.34JeffMsure that interacts with the platform specific code
05:37.40JeffMit's outside of standard C++
05:37.58alpha1-2so, I have that doubt about all kind of program in al platfoms
05:38.12JeffMdepends on the program
05:38.26JeffMand how it interacts with the platform
05:38.44alpha1-2then, in the case of BZ, what librarie does it use, OpenGL?
05:38.53alpha1-2library*
05:38.57JeffMdepends on what platform
05:39.33JeffMlinux and OSX use SDL, it' uses a bunch of libs
05:39.38JeffMit uses curl
05:39.44JeffMwindows uses directX
05:40.38alpha1-2oh I remeber our before conversation about SDL time ago yes :)
05:41.02alpha1-2ok ok I am getting it :)
05:41.46alpha1-2dos windows only use DirectX?
05:41.49alpha1-2does*
05:41.53JeffMno
05:42.10JeffMit uses it for input and sound
05:42.15alpha1-2only for 3D draw ?
05:42.29JeffMit uses GL for drawing
05:42.29alpha1-2oh
05:42.32alpha1-2OpenGL?
05:42.37JeffMthe drawing code is the same for all platforms
05:42.42JeffMthat'd be too hard to maintain
05:43.17alpha1-2does windows use OpenGL then?
05:43.41JeffMbzflag on windows? or the operting system?
05:43.50alpha1-2BZ
05:43.54JeffMyes
05:43.58alpha1-2ok
05:44.01JeffMall the drawing code is openGL
05:44.45alpha1-2but you said:
05:44.49alpha1-2[02:39] <JeffM> linux and OSX use SDL, it' uses a bunch of libs
05:44.50alpha1-2[02:39] <JeffM> it uses curl
05:44.51alpha1-2[02:39] <JeffM> windows uses directX
05:44.56JeffMyes
05:45.03JeffMdirectX is for more then drawing
05:45.12alpha1-2and I aske abou BZ:
05:45.21alpha1-2[02:38] <alpha1-2> then, in the case of BZ, what librarie does it use, OpenGL?
05:45.25alpha1-2asked*
05:45.30JeffMand I Said all the drawing code is openGL
05:45.37alpha1-2he he he
05:45.38JeffMon every platform
05:46.02alpha1-2then you were talking od O.S.s about SDL and curl?
05:46.06alpha1-2of*
05:46.12JeffMthat's for other features, not drawing
05:46.30alpha1-2ah, but all realted to BZ right?
05:46.36alpha1-2related*
05:46.40JeffMSDL is used for window setup, input, and sound on linux and OSX
05:46.41JeffMyeah
05:46.47JeffMlibs are used for a number of things
05:46.59alpha1-2ok ok
05:47.40JeffMcurrently all platforms use CURL and ares for URL stuff
05:49.04alpha1-2when you talk of OpenGL, is it the same that Mesa in Linux/OSX?
05:49.30JeffMMesa is an openGL on linux
05:49.38JeffMOSX uses apple OpenGL
05:49.53JeffMlinux can also use nvidia openGL
05:50.10alpha1-2ok
05:51.00alpha1-2then you know about Linux too or are you dedicated to Windows version mostly?
05:51.39JeffMcode is code, I know how some things work on different OSs
05:51.53JeffMGL implementaions are pretty standard
05:52.15alpha1-2ok :), yes I imagine that about OpenGL
05:52.37alpha1-2so, let me see about ANSIFilter
05:52.47JeffMdoes it have  GUI?
05:53.09JeffMor is it all command line?
05:54.04alpha1-2both
05:54.20alpha1-2I am finding both libraries
05:54.38JeffMif it has a GUI then it uses a GUI toolkit and that toolkit will need to exist on the OS that you build for
05:55.09JeffMfor command line, if it uses pure C++ then it should be fine
05:56.44alpha1-2blas-y said this today, he tried to run both versions in windows xp 32 bit:
05:56.48JeffMbut a program's sutability on an OS has nothing to do with the compliexity, it has to do with what libs it uses
05:56.49alpha1-2blas-t*
05:56.53alpha1-2[02:38] <alpha1-2> then, in the case of BZ, what librarie does it use, OpenGL?
05:57.01alpha1-2wrog pste :P
05:57.12alpha1-2I hate this USB flat KB!
05:57.27alpha1-2antifilter.exe complains about a missing libgcc_s_dw2-1.dll, and ansifilter-gui.exe complains about a missing mingwm10.dll
05:57.46JeffMthen it was built with mingw
05:57.56alpha1-2the GUI it seems
05:57.57JeffMthat has it's own requirements
05:58.00alpha1-2version*
05:58.11JeffMmingw is a C++ compiler that does not use the system level runtimes
05:58.24JeffMso you need to have it's version of the standard libraries
05:59.07alpha1-2wait a moment, press pause :)
05:59.19alpha1-2what do you mean with : GUI toolkit
05:59.29JeffMsomething that draws a window
05:59.38JeffMGTK, QT, etc..
06:00.01alpha1-2ok graphic libraries
06:00.20JeffMwindowing librarries, graphic usualy means drawing
06:00.32alpha1-2yes, then you need that libraries installed in the taget system
06:00.39alpha1-2target*
06:01.06JeffMbut mingwm10.dll is not a GUI library, it's a GCC compiler library
06:02.13alpha1-2when I was talking about complexity I meant about how much the code needs some hard thing, but it was very simple thought :P
06:02.30JeffMthe computer dosn't know about 'hard'
06:02.36JeffMit can only add numbers ;)
06:02.39alpha1-2I usually dont find the right word :P
06:02.55alpha1-2so I talk in simple way
06:03.25alpha1-2aart of my lack of knowledge in specific topic
06:03.31alpha1-2apart*
06:03.52JeffMthe mingw error simply means that whoever made the windows binary dosn't like microsoft and dosn't understand how to make a windows installer
06:04.16alpha1-2you know about MinGW too? O.o
06:04.20JeffMsure
06:04.25alpha1-2you are a genius!
06:04.27JeffMit's a windows version of GCC
06:04.28alpha1-2he he he
06:04.36alpha1-2multifacetic guy!
06:04.43JeffMit's just a compiler
06:05.08alpha1-2is there something that you don't know about? :D
06:05.22JeffMmany things I do not know about
06:05.27alpha1-2he he
06:05.48alpha1-2but not related to computers right' :)
06:05.51alpha1-2?
06:06.04JeffMrelated to all things
06:06.09alpha1-2ok ok :)
06:06.20alpha1-2I am just putting a few of humor
06:06.43alpha1-2humour*
06:07.09alpha1-2<JeffM> mingw is a C++ compiler that does not use the system level runtimes<-- O.o
06:07.33JeffMit's GCC not Visual C++
06:07.43JeffMwindows comes with the runtlime libraries for Visual C++
06:07.44JeffMnot GCC
06:08.06JeffMso since minGW uses GCC you need the GCC libs for programs compiled with it
06:08.12alpha1-2do you mean the low level libraries?
06:08.15JeffMyes
06:08.18alpha1-2ok
06:08.26JeffMthe low end C and C++ stuff
06:08.42JeffMsomething has to implement the standard library
06:11.26alpha1-2i am a little slowly in the chat still.... antifilter.exe complains about a missing libgcc_s_dw2-1.dll
06:11.40alpha1-2this is GCC I guess
06:11.47JeffMyeah
06:11.55JeffMminGW is gcc
06:12.17alpha1-2ok, I am interesting about the command line mostly, not the GUI version
06:12.28JeffMthen the user would have to go get those libs
06:12.49JeffMprobably just instal cygwin
06:13.00*** join/#bzflag Marzipan (~Marzipan@sign-4db6af1a.pool.mediaWays.net)
06:13.08alpha1-2wait me wait me....
06:14.13alpha1-2<JeffM> but mingwm10.dll is not a GUI library, it's a GCC compiler library<-- ??
06:14.26JeffMyeah.. and?
06:15.17alpha1-2then MinGW isn't visual at all??
06:15.42JeffMnope
06:15.45JeffMit's a compiler
06:15.49alpha1-2ohhhh
06:15.52JeffMit can link GUI libs
06:16.02JeffMit is the windows implementation of the GCC compiler
06:16.04alpha1-2link how?
06:16.20JeffMwith it's linker
06:16.23JeffMit is a compiler
06:16.31alpha1-2but what GUI libs?
06:16.37alpha1-2which*
06:16.44JeffMwhatever one that application developer wanted to use
06:16.53JeffMand whatever ones have GCC support
06:16.59JeffMand a windows port
06:17.03alpha1-2ok, then there are 2 parts: the compiler part and the GUI part
06:17.05JeffMGTK, WX
06:17.09JeffMsure
06:17.14JeffMthe GUI is a library
06:17.17JeffMthe compiler is a tool
06:17.27JeffMmany compilers can use the same GUI libs
06:17.42alpha1-2well, but the compiler have libraries related too
06:18.07JeffMsome compilers implemnt code in shared libs
06:18.14alpha1-2I know that the compiler is a tool, don't yuo believe me that I have some knowledge :)
06:18.14JeffMsome have it as an option
06:18.21JeffMVisualC++ can link the runtimes in staticly
06:18.31alpha1-2?*
06:19.01JeffMit can put the C++ standard library inside the exe and not need an external DLL
06:19.27alpha1-2I will call you "Flash Gordon" :)
06:20.37JeffMlooks like the windows build of ansi filter requires files that they did not provide
06:21.47alpha1-2ok ok .... that is like blas-t said yes....
06:21.57alpha1-2blast*
06:22.09alpha1-2his name is blast00-7 here :P
06:22.11JeffMyeah and the readme sucks
06:23.37JeffMmy guess is the GUI version also needs QT
06:23.59alpha1-2mhmm maybe
06:24.10JeffMthat's at least what it looks like in dependency walker
06:24.27alpha1-2where? code?
06:24.40alpha1-2yeah qt-gui
06:24.54JeffMno, in dependency walker, it's a tool
06:25.05JeffMtelss you what libs an exe links to
06:25.10alpha1-2nice
06:25.20alpha1-2and I found qt-gui in src
06:25.24alpha1-2folder
06:25.48alpha1-2but anyways I am mostly interested in command line
06:25.58JeffMthen yes, to make the program easy for a regular use to run, the developer should have made an installer that has the libs it needs
06:26.26alpha1-2so, then , as blast said me it is needing MinGW it seems, I already put that in the post, so I will wait someone to check it
06:26.35alpha1-2if not maybe I will check in wine
06:27.08JeffMwine probalby won't have mingw by default
06:27.29alpha1-2yes, apart, MinGW is GPL then they could put in without problems
06:27.41JeffMthere is no need to put it in
06:27.51JeffMwine is intened to RUN windows native programs
06:28.07JeffMif an application is built using mingw then it probably has a linux native vesion
06:28.07alpha1-2no I am not talking of wine now
06:28.25alpha1-2I am talking of the build version of ANSIFilter
06:28.28JeffMmingw it's not small
06:28.33JeffMthey just need the runtime libs
06:28.39JeffMthey probalby don't care about windows
06:28.51alpha1-2built
06:28.52alpha1-2*
06:29.14alpha1-2and you said something about runtime in minGW
06:29.28alpha1-2that it has its own runtime right?
06:29.39JeffMyes you don't need the minGW compiler to run your program just the DLL it links to
06:29.53JeffMyeah, it's version of the standard C lib
06:29.55alpha1-2ok ok
06:30.06alpha1-2like packets in linux installer
06:30.13alpha1-2packages*
06:30.37JeffMno, just a dll
06:30.42JeffMthey are like .so files on linux
06:30.49alpha1-2well, why didn't they put the needed part of runtime libs in?
06:31.02JeffMbecause they probalby don't care
06:31.07alpha1-2oh
06:31.09JeffMor never even bothered to run it
06:31.34alpha1-2blast said that they maybe never run it out of the laboratory :)
06:31.59JeffMprpobably
06:32.14JeffMthey had minGW installed, and probably ran for them
06:32.22JeffMso they figured it would run for everyone
06:32.34alpha1-2BTW have you looked in the PDF result of ANSIFIlter in my post? (last post)
06:32.35JeffMthey probably don't know how windows works
06:32.39JeffMno
06:32.44alpha1-2wat me
06:32.48JeffMI don't care about logs in PDF, I see no reason for it
06:33.03alpha1-2http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18559&p=166633#p166658
06:33.09alpha1-2see the PDF link
06:33.15alpha1-2just have a look :)
06:33.16JeffMI am aware that the thread exists
06:33.46alpha1-2it was a hard week work :)
06:33.59JeffMgray background...
06:34.19alpha1-2yes , for yuo can do annotatios :)
06:34.28alpha1-2for you can do annotations*
06:34.36alpha1-2see this:
06:34.42JeffMthat seems pointless to me, you can't print it like that
06:34.54JeffMbut I don't know what people do wiht logs other then accuse each other of cheating
06:34.56alpha1-2see the first post , the 03 and 04 pngs
06:35.13JeffMagain, I don't have that much interest in the feature
06:35.29alpha1-2but have you seen the annotatios?
06:35.39JeffMwhat does it mater if I have or not?
06:35.56alpha1-2welll we were talking for more than 1 hour of this :)
06:36.01JeffMnow if you were doing colored logs from the server side using webadmin then that'd be something I'd care about
06:36.40alpha1-2remember that I am player side mostly (client side)
06:37.01alpha1-2but I thought about all the admins/cops that can use (or only can use) th cleint side
06:37.10JeffMand that has limited usefulnes
06:37.14alpha1-2or the simnple players, like me :)
06:37.39alpha1-2if not, for what reason the client has the /savemsgs command?
06:37.53alpha1-2with and without ANSI colors
06:37.53JeffMbecause we used to not have webadmin :)
06:38.02JeffMit was of used to someone
06:38.08JeffMdosn't mean it's the best solution
06:38.21JeffMshowing logs as HTML would be better
06:38.32JeffMthen people could save them however they wanted
06:38.39alpha1-2ok ok
06:38.54alpha1-2see the before link to the PDF, there yuo have the HTML log
06:38.55JeffMand if it was on the server you could see a log with out joining a game
06:39.14JeffMor from time before you joined a game, or after
06:39.42JeffMthe client side approach just has limits, those associated with the client
06:39.48alpha1-2have u seen the HTMl file? :)
06:40.04JeffMthe format of the HTML file form the client does not interest me
06:40.19JeffMthe use of webadmin would
06:40.26alpha1-2ehhhh don't be mean with a begginer programmer here :D
06:40.36alpha1-2step by step
06:40.38JeffMI am just stating a fact
06:40.46JeffMabout my personal preference
06:40.57JeffMit has no meaning for what you choose to do
06:41.00alpha1-2give some time and I will make a big feature!!!
06:41.05alpha1-2he he he
06:42.01alpha1-2and remember that I was thinking in the PLAYER side (admin/cop/player)
06:42.14alpha1-2after I could think in the server onr
06:42.15alpha1-2one*
06:42.25alpha1-2step by step
06:42.35JeffMdo you think the server is inherently harder then the client?
06:43.33alpha1-2no
06:43.42JeffMgood
06:43.50JeffMit's actualy simpler, the server does less
06:44.18alpha1-2i think that they are similars in complexity, but I don't know them well
06:44.30JeffMthe client is much worse
06:45.22alpha1-2tell me one thing about the before... do all the admin/cops of 1 server (I dont talk of the owner) have permission to read the server logs?
06:49.58JeffMdepends on how the owner has it setup
06:50.10JeffMthe game itself dosn't know what a "cop" is
06:50.18alpha1-2well, but as far as you know?
06:50.24JeffMI don't know
06:50.26alpha1-2i ngeneral yes or no?
06:50.32JeffMnot all server's have logs
06:50.50alpha1-2as I saw, the majority i think
06:51.10JeffMhow can you see server logs?
06:51.24alpha1-2I read the server introductory messages
06:51.26alpha1-2or rules
06:51.39alpha1-2and they often say that
06:51.46JeffMmany servers are run by the same people
06:52.22alpha1-2well, I have seen a lot of server sites :)
06:52.37alpha1-2ofc maybe not all 180 maps
06:52.45alpha1-2server*
06:53.10alpha1-2I think that is the total?
06:54.46alpha1-2well, anyways I don't understand what you mean with my script isn't useful... webadmin?
06:54.48JeffMStrayer shows 172 servers currently
06:54.59JeffMit may be useful, I just don't see it
06:55.09JeffMwhat do people do with the PDF files?
06:55.17JeffMwebadmin is a plugin
06:55.28alpha1-2yu said before that mostly accuse each other, that isn't my purpose
06:55.43alpha1-2people can use it fr many purposes
06:55.57JeffMlike?
06:57.09alpha1-2moslty of they , as me  time ago, don'tknow even iabout the /savemsg command
06:57.34alpha1-2mostly just take screenshots
06:57.44alpha1-2them*
06:57.51JeffMand what do they do with the screenshots?
06:58.40alpha1-2well, they can be: 1 - as you said , the problems ; 2 - for personal purposes (nice chat, etc); 3 - admins/cops
06:59.10JeffMI doubt #2 exists, and #3 shold be done on the server IMHO
06:59.58alpha1-2ok, 3 it can be, but I don't know if it is being that way nowadays
07:00.33alpha1-2in 2 I am myself interested
07:00.52alpha1-2or 1 ofc
07:01.21alpha1-2apart if u paste it from HTMl to Libreoffice you can edit it and curt all things you don't want
07:01.30alpha1-2cut off*
07:01.38JeffMor make people say anything ;)
07:02.09alpha1-2TBH I did it cause of 1 admin was curious about 1 problem that I had and I did ALL the process manually :P
07:02.29alpha1-2then I dont want to do the whole process manually twice :D
07:02.48alpha1-2and I thought that it could be useful for others too
07:03.03JeffMmaybe it is, I just have my doubts
07:03.40alpha1-2until the /savemsgs -s command is more useful for me than the screenshots, do we agree? (in client side, player side)
07:04.00alpha1-2it saves only thestrings , without color codes
07:05.00alpha1-2but talking of 3 , surely it is more useful server side, what does the webadmin do?
07:05.17JeffMadminister over HTTP
07:05.51alpha1-2oh excuse me... I missed your line.... again, have you read about this?
07:06.11alpha1-2Attention: don't use it for bad things!, remember that the servers save logs too and you can't lie against them.
07:06.15alpha1-2in the last post
07:06.37JeffMheh
07:06.42alpha1-2:), I said you that I had a hard work week , I tried to think in all
07:07.04JeffMsure, but the work has limited use to the project as a whole, that is all
07:07.13alpha1-2that post made me crazy!
07:07.20alpha1-2all th week
07:08.38alpha1-2well, I was thinking from client side mostly, not server side
07:08.57alpha1-2nowm tel me please how the webadmin works
07:09.02JeffMi know
07:09.18JeffMit uses the internal http server
07:10.03alpha1-2internal of whom?
07:10.23alpha1-2outside bafs but in the server?
07:10.29alpha1-2bzfs*
07:10.36JeffMinside of bzfs
07:10.41JeffMit has an HTTP server
07:10.45alpha1-2oh
07:10.48alpha1-2ok ok
07:10.54JeffMthat's how fastmap works
07:10.55alpha1-2nice
07:11.10alpha1-2what technology does it use?
07:11.25alpha1-2any other or own one?
07:11.32JeffMnone
07:11.55alpha1-2i dont man owner soft, but own bzfs code
07:11.57alpha1-2mean+
07:12.03JeffMso do I
07:12.29alpha1-2just simple code?
07:12.33alpha1-2:P
07:12.41JeffMno it's prety complex
07:12.48JeffMbut it's not third party
07:12.54alpha1-2yeah yeah , but al made by the team?
07:12.57alpha1-2al*
07:12.59alpha1-2all*
07:13.00JeffMyup
07:13.10alpha1-2ok
07:13.14alpha1-2that is good!
07:13.24alpha1-2Apache: learn!
07:13.29alpha1-2he he he
07:13.32alpha1-2we can!
07:13.36alpha1-2they*
07:13.39alpha1-2he he he
07:14.08alpha1-2and then how does the plug in work?
07:14.10JeffMapache wold not be sutable, this code had to share the sockets with the game protcol
07:14.22JeffMthe plugin insalls a URL handler
07:14.26JeffMthat services requests
07:14.30JeffMand builds pages
07:15.36alpha1-2what info does the pages show?
07:15.40alpha1-2if i can know
07:16.01JeffMwhatever each plugin wants to show
07:16.12alpha1-2all by plugins?
07:16.14JeffMwebadmin does chat, banlists, etc..
07:16.24JeffMby any plugin that hooks into the HTTP system
07:16.37JeffMfastmap only sends out maps
07:17.35alpha1-2what are fastmaps?
07:17.44alpha1-2like Quickshoot?
07:18.00alpha1-2:P
07:18.09JeffMno, it's a plugin that uses the HTTP server to send maps to clients faster
07:18.33JeffMthe HTTP stream is faster then the in game method that sends 1k at a time
07:19.00alpha1-2faster than direct connection?
07:19.12alpha1-2I don't unedrsand
07:19.13JeffMfaster then the in game protocol
07:19.26JeffMthe in game protcoll sends 1k, waits for a responce, sends 1k..
07:19.33alpha1-2yes
07:19.40JeffMHTTP sends it it in big chunks
07:19.45alpha1-2oh ok
07:19.54JeffMit dosn't wait for a responce
07:20.26alpha1-2what rotocol is the server using?
07:20.40JeffMfor what? the in game one?
07:20.43alpha1-2ys
07:20.52JeffMthe bzflag protcoll
07:20.57alpha1-2ok :)
07:21.04alpha1-2TM ;)
07:22.43alpha1-2webadmin isnt something interactive with admins no? it is auto?
07:23.01JeffMit's interactive
07:23.08JeffMyou can chat, set bans, etc...
07:23.27JeffMit allows you to administrate the server in a web browser
07:23.28alpha1-2ok, but it has auto funtions I mean
07:23.38JeffMI don't know what that means
07:23.42alpha1-2functions*
07:23.59alpha1-2for example the chat is automatically
07:24.04alpha1-2automatic
07:24.08JeffMif it's in the template
07:24.16JeffMthe pages are built from templates
07:24.35JeffMand there are a bunch of features they can reference
07:24.55alpha1-2excuse me... here locally could I start a webadmin fo example?
07:25.13JeffMthe code shold be in svn, ether in trunk or 2.99
07:25.25alpha1-2in 2.4.2? 2.4.0?
07:25.42JeffMprobably not 2.40
07:25.49alpha1-2ok, I hae 2.4.2...
07:26.06JeffMI don't think we shiped it with the release
07:26.09JeffMit wasn't done
07:26.15alpha1-2what should I do? just run bzfs and?
07:26.22JeffMit's a plugin
07:26.32alpha1-2oh ok
07:26.37alpha1-2not with release
07:27.01alpha1-2ok ok.... dont worry
07:27.08JeffM2.4.2 was just made to get debian done
07:27.16JeffMdidn't have many real features
07:27.53alpha1-2then, if i would like to make a plugin (?) that does the HTML file I would have to deal with webadmin right?
07:28.30JeffMor some other HTTP plugin, it just makes sense to put chat logs in web admin, since that is what it is suposed to be used for
07:28.57alpha1-2ok
07:29.12alpha1-2wher could I get the code then?
07:29.18JeffMsvn
07:29.28alpha1-2unedr plugins?
07:29.40JeffMtrunk or 2.99, I do not remember off the top of my head if we backported it or not after I got authentication working
07:29.42JeffMyeah
07:30.49alpha1-2ok, if it is in 2.99, dos it mean that it could be with bugs or something?
07:31.09JeffMsure
07:31.15JeffMthat's why it needs work
07:31.16alpha1-2and in rtunk no?
07:31.21JeffMand the work would be of value
07:31.34alpha1-2and in trunk no?
07:31.50JeffMsame
07:31.50alpha1-2are there 2 versions maybe?
07:31.57alpha1-2ok
07:32.08alpha1-2but it works actually
07:32.18JeffMyeah trunk would have to be different, the HTTPd stuff is different in 2.4.x
07:32.53JeffMit's much better now then it was in 2.99
07:33.04alpha1-2ohhh
07:33.23alpha1-2well i will see, but not promise nothing :P
07:33.51JeffMnobody ever does
07:34.30alpha1-2apart I need some training in net stuffs
07:35.19alpha1-2it would be some hard for me, but I think not impossible
07:35.32JeffMthe networking is all handed for you
07:35.33alpha1-2a little*
07:35.38JeffMbzfs does that
07:35.49JeffMthe plugins just return a string with the page data
07:36.26alpha1-2does the plugin not work with net stuff at all?
07:36.41JeffMnope
07:36.46alpha1-2niec :P
07:37.00JeffMthats why you make compoents
07:37.19alpha1-2does it just read/write what?
07:37.27JeffMBZFS does the socket, the HTTP system does the low level HTTP formating, an the plugin just returns page data
07:37.49JeffMit gets a request object that has the info about what the browser is asking for
07:37.58JeffMand fills out a responce object with the data
07:39.27alpha1-2it is in the middle of the browser and the HTP server then?
07:39.40JeffMno
07:40.10JeffMthe HTTP server dosn't know what data to return for a request, the plugin fills in that data
07:40.34JeffMbut the HTTP server parses the raw HTTP request into a structure for the plugin
07:41.13JeffMthe plugin is the last thing on the server that is called
07:41.23JeffMso it's the furthest away from the browser
07:41.41alpha1-2the browser communicates directly with the HTTP server?
07:41.47JeffMno
07:41.55alpha1-2oh *facepalm*
07:42.00alpha1-2he he he
07:42.00JeffMbrowser -> bzfs -> http -> plugin
07:42.12JeffMthen plugin -> http -> bzfs -> browser
07:42.21alpha1-2ohhhh
07:42.40JeffMhttp is built on top of TCP
07:42.41alpha1-2I got it!
07:42.52alpha1-2ok
07:43.01JeffMso bzfs does the TCP, our http code parses the HTTP commands
07:43.07JeffMand pases them to the plugin
07:43.22JeffMso each plugin dosn't have to do the same work of doing http decoding
07:43.43alpha1-2ok ok
07:43.59alpha1-2u know networks are complicated :)
07:44.10JeffMnot really
07:44.27alpha1-2it is one of the more complicated things in computers !!
07:44.40alpha1-2tell me not!
07:44.45alpha1-2:)
07:44.47JeffMdata in, data out
07:44.56alpha1-2OSi model?
07:44.59JeffMcompilers are much more complex
07:45.01alpha1-2OSI*
07:45.19alpha1-2I can undertand more compilers than networks he he he
07:45.31alpha1-2but not impossible!
07:45.37JeffMit's just a connection beween 2 computers
07:45.47JeffMyou send data, it may or may not get to the other one
07:45.59alpha1-2yes but in layers
07:46.11JeffMyou usualy don't care about that
07:46.17JeffMyou just pick TCP or UDP
07:46.22JeffMthe system does the rest
07:46.35alpha1-2yeah
07:46.52alpha1-2all the hard work fo the poor computers! :D
07:47.11JeffMcomputers are dumb all they can do is add and store
07:47.27alpha1-2but this is layer right? browser -> bzfs -> http -> plugin
07:47.35JeffMthat's the components
07:47.36alpha1-2layers*
07:47.49JeffMit stops being 'networking' at the bzfs level
07:48.08JeffMafter that it's just strings
07:49.02alpha1-2I mean OSI model
07:49.42JeffMthat's deeper then what applications generaly do
07:49.53alpha1-2than*
07:49.58JeffMwhatever
07:50.02alpha1-2:)
07:50.14alpha1-2my first english correction :)
07:50.22alpha1-2I am learning
07:50.26alpha1-2he he he
07:50.56JeffMwe don't realy do a seperate presentation and session layer
07:51.04alpha1-2I want to know only if this use OSi or not? browser -> bzfs -> http -> plugin
07:51.05JeffMI have some session data, but that's done using cookies
07:51.14JeffMnot specificly OSI no
07:51.23JeffMit is not the same as apache
07:52.20JeffMand the OS does the low level stuff
07:53.48alpha1-2ok
07:54.01alpha1-2give some time....
07:54.03alpha1-2me*
07:54.33JeffMgoes to make sleep
07:55.01alpha1-2ok np.... let's continue in other moment , and thanks for al i will see then :)
10:33.49*** join/#bzflag brad_ (~brad@83.33.113.87.dyn.plus.net)
12:01.18*** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala)
13:14.39*** join/#bzflag Rob5a (~Rob5a@5.28.70.57)
15:49.06*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501)
15:49.06*** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ
15:51.26*** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala)
16:23.33*** join/#bzflag brad (~brad@unaffiliated/brad)
16:29.17*** join/#bzflag drizzo4shizzo (~dan@pool-72-83-136-195.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
16:43.54*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501)
16:43.54*** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ
17:45.26blast007JeffM: well, I'm recording client versions for my servers and mofo now :)
17:56.08*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
17:56.11*** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org)
17:57.38*** join/#bzflag JeffM_ (~JeffM@cpe-76-167-236-199.socal.res.rr.com)
17:57.42JeffM_blast007, cool
17:58.06*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501)
17:58.06*** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ
17:59.14JeffMman that's a buttload of servers with no players
18:06.52*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
18:10.29*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
18:13.43*** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (~gnurdux@c-67-186-57-145.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
18:14.03*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
18:15.54*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
18:18.45*** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala)
18:33.03*** join/#bzflag khonkhortisan_ (~kyle@c-50-132-92-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
18:34.04*** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (~gnurdux@c-67-186-57-145.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
18:34.34*** join/#bzflag randomparticle (~randompar@about/essy/snick/randomparticle)
18:47.11JeffMblast007,  can you also get player counts per day/hour?
18:48.26JeffMoh and if you need alpha-1's ascii tool to work on windows, I have the DLLs that will make it work
18:51.31blast007I only track joins
18:51.50blast007and I'm really not all that interested in ANSIfilter ;)
18:52.44blast007for player counts you mean how many concurrent online users?
18:52.48JeffMI didn't think so :)
18:56.37*** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala)
19:26.01*** join/#bzflag randomparticle (~randompar@about/essy/snick/randomparticle)
22:01.15*** join/#bzflag DarkCalf (~DarkCalf@173.231.40.99)
23:15.54*** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org)
23:25.31*** join/#bzflag mebigfatguy (~dave@128.177.74.185)
23:59.38*** part/#bzflag drizzo4shizzo (~dan@pool-72-83-136-195.washdc.fios.verizon.net)

Generated by irclog2html.pl Modified by Tim Riker to work with infobot.