IRC log for #bzflag on 20130803

00:57.29*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501)
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02:20.51alpha1-2_awayJeffM: How do you understand software patents in a summarized way? and how does it would have relation with FLOSS?
02:21.28JeffMpattents are related to copyright
02:21.28alpha1-2*how would it be related*
02:22.08JeffMthe copyright holder can apply for a pattent on anything they own
02:22.28JeffMthey can also choose to license it under an open source license
02:22.51JeffMif they choose to do so, they loose pattent protections, but they CAN do that
02:23.11JeffMbeing open sources does not prevent pattents, it just limits what they can do
02:23.51JeffMit's just lke anything that is open source can also be dual licensed as closed source by the author
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02:24.32alpha1-2ahh, interesting
02:25.20alpha1-2but as far I know there are some hard discussions about software patents around the world in the last times
02:25.53JeffMsure but that's a different issue then open source licenses
02:26.21JeffMpeople forget that open source code still has a n owner
02:26.46JeffMlike bzflag is owned by tim and he just happens to be nice enough to grant us a license
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02:29.04alpha1-2in the other hand, I am award of som important project that have both free and propietary versions availables (Firefox, Libreoffice, SUSE, etc) and I think that it is good, it is a way to have some "feedback" with the community let's say
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02:33.01alpha1-2for I can understand more about soft patent... if you could patent a part of BZFlag, for example the HTTP server (that would be an own technology), you could make it propietary and sell it?
02:33.22JeffMtim can do that with out a patent
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02:33.36JeffMI can sell you any part of bzflag
02:33.51JeffMtim can make a closed source license for any part and he can sell it
02:33.57JeffMyou can sell bzflag if you wanted to
02:34.26alpha1-2I already understand about the relation money/Free Soft... but not too the relation patent/FS
02:34.46JeffMthere is no relation
02:34.55JeffMnot directly
02:35.17JeffMit generaly dosn't make sense to pattent somethign that is open source
02:35.28JeffMsince then you loose the protection of the pattent
02:35.38JeffMbut it is allowed
02:35.59alpha1-2as far I understand, the patents are related to a technology (for example an HTTP server)
02:36.13JeffMyou can apply for a pattent for anything
02:36.24JeffMbut yes they are best for proceses
02:36.34JeffMnot specific implemntations
02:38.03JeffMthe reason to pattent something is to prevent people from using it with out a license. it would not make sense to then open source something that you wanted to control
02:39.00JeffMbut open source licenses don't prevent them from being applied to pattentend code
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02:39.13JeffMso someone could pattent a code idea
02:39.32JeffMmake money for a few years, then decide to release an implementation under an open source licnese
02:39.42JeffMand grant evryone rights to use it like that
02:40.08JeffMbut it would still be under pattent
02:40.28JeffMand people would have to use it under the open source license
02:40.31alpha1-2have u noticed about the patents sale from Novel to Attachmate about hundred of patents?
02:40.38JeffMsure
02:40.53alpha1-2that was huge
02:40.59JeffMthat's a common tactic to buy and sell patents
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02:43.00alpha1-2then, you think that patents aren't necessarily against Free Soft?
02:44.17JeffMdefine against
02:44.58JeffMpatents exist to controll code, open source licenses exist to control code, usualy for different reasons
02:44.58alpha1-2well, I think then that patents are directly related to propietary software
02:45.08JeffMnope
02:45.29JeffMyou can make closed source software with out patents
02:45.30alpha1-2but I think too that both propietary and free software can live at once
02:45.37JeffMthe software I work on is not pateneted
02:45.43JeffMbut is closed source
02:45.47blast007one reason to patent something that is open source would be to have an additional documented case of "I did this first, so you can't patent it and then try to exploit my users"
02:45.58JeffMyeah
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02:46.12JeffMit would force all users of the process to be open source
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02:46.25JeffMand prevent closed soruce implementations
02:46.32JeffMso a pattent is a tool
02:46.46blast007though I still think software patents should go die in a fire
02:47.01JeffMsure, I think that's true for ALL process patents
02:47.37JeffMbut if they exist they are still a tool
02:48.23alpha1-2well, I think that I am understanding better then
02:48.26alpha1-2it*
02:48.53alpha1-2<JeffM> you can make closed source software with out patents
02:49.16alpha1-2I know that they are two different concepts yes, but related
02:51.19alpha1-2let's say, a "xyz" soft patent wouldn't exist if it wouldn't have a propietary soft behind, am I right?
02:51.33JeffMsure
02:51.43JeffMyou patent things to make money
02:51.52alpha1-2but prop soft, as you said, yes can exist without a patent
02:52.40alpha1-2ok
02:54.11alpha1-2and, a "abc" patent, then, you say that *can exist* with a Free Soft behind?
02:54.29JeffMsure
02:54.37alpha1-2for example?
02:54.45JeffMif you invent an idea and patent it, you can then open source it
02:54.51JeffMan give it out to the world
02:54.55alpha1-2yes
02:55.03JeffMthat would prevent some other company from using it in prop software
02:55.14alpha1-2ahh
02:55.28alpha1-2but too with a GPL license fo example
02:56.34alpha1-2is it ok?
02:56.42JeffMsure
02:56.46alpha1-2ok
02:56.52JeffMgo look at the Open Patent Alliance
02:57.39alpha1-2then I said that patents are directly related to prop soft , though not exclusively
02:57.51alpha1-2I am understanding
02:57.56alpha1-2*
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02:58.16JeffMthey are seperate things, but many people link them
02:58.56alpha1-2and , then, as I asked you, not "against" free soft, but maybe, as you said, innecesary
02:59.55alpha1-2if you have an idea and u make it Free soft, then the patent is innecesary
03:00.02alpha1-2in this case
03:00.50alpha1-2unnecessary*
03:00.51JeffMnot always
03:01.05JeffMeven if you open source your code, someone else can write a closed source version
03:01.17JeffMthat is why you would want to patent it
03:01.56alpha1-2with BSD kind license for example, my first soft?
03:02.08JeffMany license
03:02.15alpha1-2GPL no
03:02.20JeffMyep
03:02.25JeffMANY license
03:02.25alpha1-2?
03:02.29JeffMyou can GPL your code
03:02.46JeffMI can write NEW code that is not related to your code that does the same thing as your code and make that prop software
03:02.50JeffMyou can't copyright an idea
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03:03.10alpha1-2the main reason of GPL kind licenses is that *nobody* can do prop soft! :)
03:03.20JeffMusing THAT code
03:03.31JeffMyou can have different code that does the same thing
03:03.39JeffMand make that prop
03:04.07khonkhortisannor can you copyright math, nor can you copyright body parts
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03:04.15JeffMor DNA
03:04.46alpha1-2oh yes right, the problem here appeared when you used "idea" word :)
03:04.46JeffMso as long as I don't use your GPL code, you can not controll what I do
03:04.50JeffMyes
03:04.56JeffMyou CAN pattent a process
03:05.01JeffMand that is very close to an idea
03:05.07alpha1-2ahhh ok ok
03:05.25alpha1-2something theoric?
03:05.26khonkhortisanbut you can patent dna isolated from its cell
03:05.27JeffMso if you had patented the process that your code implements, even if I make my own version it is covered by your pattent
03:05.49alpha1-2theoretical*
03:05.57blast007you can also re-patent a patent if you add "on a computer" or "on a mobile device" to the description, apparently ;)
03:05.59khonkhortisancryptography has patents like this
03:06.11JeffMyeah there are a buch of BS extensions
03:06.19JeffMbut some of them may be shut down soon
03:06.24JeffMhopefuly
03:07.15JeffMso patents are just at tool that goe WITH licenses
03:07.37alpha1-2ok, paralel to licenses
03:07.42JeffMyes
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03:08.05alpha1-2but they are finally something theoretical or more implemented?
03:08.18alpha1-2thing*
03:08.40JeffMyou can not pattent a specific implementtion of a process
03:08.47JeffMyou can only copyright the implementation
03:09.26alpha1-2"specific implementtion of a process": let's say for us, a C++ code of a process
03:10.00JeffMthen you can pattent the process not the code
03:10.03alpha1-2"you can only copyright the implementation": then , let' say for us, a flow diagram?
03:10.06JeffMthe code is under copyright
03:10.14JeffMno the C++ code is the implementation
03:11.13JeffMso if you pattent the process and write a C++ implemtation that you license
03:11.30JeffMI can not write a C# version that I use under my own license
03:11.37alpha1-2oh you were using both words this time : patent and copyright :P
03:11.37JeffMbecause you have a patent on the process
03:11.51alpha1-2I missed them
03:11.53JeffMyes, they are seperate concepts
03:12.19JeffMyes you COPYRIGHT your C++ code, and you PATENT your process
03:12.27alpha1-2wat
03:12.33JeffMGPL is a license you apply to COPYRIGHT
03:12.51alpha1-2for give an example then, for I can go understanding
03:13.05JeffMyou invent a new way to compress files
03:13.13alpha1-2use please the BZ HTTP code for example
03:13.13JeffMit is way better then all other methods
03:13.19JeffMyou pattent it
03:13.27alpha1-2wait*
03:13.30JeffMand release a C++ version under GPL
03:14.21JeffMI can not write a java version for my propritary software and sell it
03:14.27JeffMbecause you pattented it
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03:14.56JeffMin the case of the Bzflag HTTP code, it is NOT patented, just copyright and released under the LGPL
03:15.00alpha1-2ok ok wait!
03:15.13alpha1-2talking of the compresion sysem
03:15.28JeffMyou CAN implement a version of that in java and put it in your own software under whatever terms you want
03:15.33alpha1-2then you PATENT the flow diagram yes?
03:15.45alpha1-2th process
03:15.46JeffMyou patent the algorithm
03:15.48JeffMyeah
03:15.53alpha1-2yes the algorithm I mean
03:15.55JeffMflow, process, etc..
03:16.13alpha1-2that would be something theoretical, not code yes
03:16.35JeffMit's not code, it's concept
03:16.52alpha1-2aren't there some GPL kind license to apply to that too?
03:17.07JeffMGPL is for code
03:17.09JeffMso no
03:17.18alpha1-2no, for documentation fo example
03:17.20JeffMthere are document licenses that you can apply to not code
03:17.33JeffMbut that dosn't protect the idea just the specific document
03:17.41alpha1-2ahh
03:17.47JeffMcopyright only protects a SPECIFIC work
03:18.13JeffMor a specific part of a work
03:18.17JeffMMickey Mouse is copyright
03:18.24alpha1-2well, wait, in this case what would it protect?
03:18.25JeffMbut Disney does not own all mice
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03:18.51alpha1-2I am talking of algorithm
03:18.54JeffMfor a document it means that I could not make changes to the document, say I wrote it, and do what I want
03:19.21JeffMyou can not copyright an algorthm
03:19.27JeffMonly patent it
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03:19.46alpha1-2sorry, I am talking of algorithm *documetn*
03:19.58JeffMyou can copyright the document only
03:20.00alpha1-2so, only to the paper let's say
03:20.07alpha1-2"paper"*
03:20.27alpha1-2yuo mean, nobody can modify the words?
03:20.32JeffMso if you write a document that describes how the BZFlag HTTP stuff works and GPL that docuemtn, I can still write my own version of the code
03:20.36alpha1-2or the diagrams?
03:20.45JeffMyeah
03:21.02JeffMnot with out using it under license
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03:22.05alpha1-2so, GPL document version sure that doesn't aplply similar to patents?
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03:22.12JeffMoh god no
03:22.21alpha1-2ok
03:22.27JeffMGPL uses copyrght to be enforced
03:22.46JeffMif it worked like you think then Disney would own all mice
03:23.35alpha1-2wait, you are mixing concepts :P
03:23.40JeffMnope
03:24.15alpha1-2Trademark isn't a patent?
03:24.49JeffMif you could GPL the idea in a document, then I could propritary license a docuement that described a mouse and say that my license applies to all mice
03:25.14JeffMtrademark is the registering of a mark or design to be used with a product
03:25.39alpha1-2"identifies products or services"
03:25.42JeffMyeah
03:25.47JeffMit's an identifier
03:25.52JeffMnot the thing itself
03:26.03JeffMjust a symbol that is used to descrie it
03:26.13JeffMdescribe
03:26.45alpha1-2ok, ok, I need some time to read well all and try to understand, thanks anyways (but you talk a lot! he he he)
03:27.15alpha1-2(and/or I am slowly too :)
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03:34.01alpha1-2"It is sometimes erroneously stated that the Mickey Mouse character is only copyrighted. In fact, the character, like all major Disney characters, is also trademarked, which lasts in perpetuity as long as it continues to be used commercially by its owner." :P
03:34.27JeffMyes it is both
03:34.32alpha1-2he he
03:34.40JeffMthuse use those as tools to get what they want
03:34.45alpha1-2you can see what yuo push me to read! he he he
03:34.52alpha1-2Micky Mouse!
03:34.55alpha1-2:)
03:36.15alpha1-2"the Copyright Term Extension Act (sometimes called the 'Mickey Mouse Protection Act'" :)
03:36.24JeffMyeah
03:36.28alpha1-2he he
03:36.38alpha1-2I never have heared abou it :)
03:36.58alpha1-2or had*
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03:39.30alpha1-2then you say that you can only patent processes?
03:40.28alpha1-2and copyright implementations?
03:40.53alpha1-2only*
03:41.12alpha1-2my final questions
03:41.51JeffMya
03:41.59alpha1-2ok, thanks!
03:42.17alpha1-2yuo seems to be a wise person :)
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22:08.44SpazzyMcGeeAre dynamic colors different in the current release?
22:09.12SpazzyMcGee(from 2.0.0)
22:09.51SpazzyMcGeeI remember there being some difference at some stage some time...
22:13.22blast007It might be the same as 2.0.x.  I think the change was made in 2.99.x, but I don't recall if that was backported.
22:13.57blast007I don't think any of the map format changes made it into 2.4
22:19.46JeffM2501I don't think so ether
22:20.09SpazzyMcGeeokay, thanks.
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22:46.48SpazzyMcGeeWhat's the smallest unit of time a dynamic colour can deal with?
22:48.01JeffM2501depends on your frame rate
22:48.21JeffM2501how small are you looking at doing?
22:48.44SpazzyMcGee0.1 seconds, well above frame rate
22:48.51JeffM2501that should be fine
22:48.59SpazzyMcGeebut might go smaller
22:49.09SpazzyMcGeeI'm animating some lightning
22:49.35JeffM2501if you are above 4 to 5 decimal places you'll be fine
22:49.45SpazzyMcGeeDo dyncols sync across all clients?
22:49.57JeffM2501they use a clock that is server synced
22:50.03JeffM2501so it's pretty close
22:50.09SpazzyMcGeenice
22:50.29SpazzyMcGeeIt's the little things that count
22:50.35blast007the hard part will be the thunder ;)
22:50.48SpazzyMcGeeheh, indeed
22:51.10blast007and by "hard" I mean impossible at this point in time
22:51.37apemanby impossible you mean impossible without hacking :P
22:51.47blast007impossible without a new major release of the game
22:51.52BulletCatcher2.4.5 is open.
22:51.53BulletCatcherMake it happen if you want to.
22:51.54JeffM2501by hacking you mean adding features to the game
22:52.03blast007BulletCatcher: has to wait for a breaking release
22:52.12JeffM2501it would need a new message
22:52.22SpazzyMcGeeDoesn't 2.4 ass some sound features?
22:52.27SpazzyMcGeeer add
22:52.30blast007hehe
22:52.36JeffM2501nope
22:52.37blast007and no
22:52.43allejolol
22:52.45apemanoh... thunder. Not lightning
22:52.51BulletCatcherI meant to say that 2.5.1 is open, which is a breaking version.
22:52.52blast007we actually stubbed out the API function for sound
22:52.52JeffM2501it's on the list to fix for 2.6
22:53.29SpazzyMcGeefair
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23:21.51SpazzyMcGeeCan anybody remember which Louman map had lightning in it?
23:22.45JeffM2501wasn't it the forest one?
23:23.03apemanthe gauntlet?
23:23.14JeffM2501do you want to do actual ligning bolts? or just make the sky flash?
23:23.21SpazzyMcGeei'm gonna do both
23:23.52JeffM2501both can be done with dynamic colors mucking with the alpha channel of a textured quad
23:24.00JeffM2501or a textured dome in the case of the sky
23:24.19SpazzyMcGeeYeah, I can make a flash easily - but I wanted to have the effect of the bolts 'growing' toward the ground
23:24.30JeffM2501that's going to be hard
23:24.46JeffM2501you can't move the object or change it's UVs
23:24.47SpazzyMcGeeI can do it with a sequence of dyncols
23:24.59JeffM2501yeah ok
23:25.02JeffM2501multiple objects
23:25.22SpazzyMcGeeyeah - multiple faces on a mesh
23:25.44SpazzyMcGeehowever, I can't really space the flashes easily
23:26.02SpazzyMcGeebecause the sequence period is 0.1 seconds
23:26.39SpazzyMcGeeAnd as far as i'm aware you can't use two sequences in one dyncol, correct?
23:27.10SpazzyMcGeeI could just at hundreds of '0's to the sequence, but that's a bit clunky
23:27.11JeffM2501dunno of the top of my head but I do know does have limits
23:27.23JeffM2501it's not a generic animation system :)
23:28.27SpazzyMcGeeunfortunately not :p
23:28.37JeffM2501that's what scripting was for
23:29.00SpazzyMcGeeDid LUA scripting make it into the current release?
23:29.03blast007nope
23:29.07JeffM2501oh god no
23:29.19blast007that was probably the highest risk change
23:29.21SpazzyMcGeeheh
23:29.25JeffM2501yeah
23:29.53blast007and the include of that could have also been fun with Debian, because it was a modified lua
23:30.03blast007inclusion*
23:32.03blast007you might be able to do something with a texture matrix paired with a dyncol
23:32.34blast007have the texture shift down the spokes of the lightning mesh
23:32.50JeffM2501sill going to have the sequence problem
23:33.22blast007would reduce the number of dyncol's you may need though
23:37.52SpazzyMcGeecan you use multiple dyncols in a material?
23:41.58blast007doesn't look like it

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