| 01:16.12 | thrakattak | <blast007> so, yeah.. the server is the killer :) |
| 01:16.33 | thrakattak | ^-- good one. but the message that i observed during gameplay was: |
| 01:16.53 | thrakattak | player_name killed by server |
| 01:17.13 | JeffM | did one of your players connect as the name "server" ? |
| 01:17.35 | thrakattak | interesting question. will have to ask owner (not me, am just assiting schlep) |
| 01:17.53 | thrakattak | *assisting |
| 01:18.05 | JeffM | and who has access to the /kill command? |
| 01:18.35 | thrakattak | havent checked all the groups, but would assume all the @'s |
| 01:18.46 | thrakattak | cops definitely not |
| 01:19.06 | thrakattak | you have a good point though |
| 01:19.28 | thrakattak | i know there were other admins playing at the time i saw the message displayed... |
| 01:19.36 | thrakattak | but did not come up on admin channel |
| 01:19.42 | thrakattak | came up on public channel |
| 01:20.14 | JeffM | I don't think /kill limits it's message to the admin channel |
| 01:20.24 | JeffM | the kill text messages are not sent from the server |
| 01:20.34 | JeffM | a kill packet is with a victim and killer |
| 01:20.39 | JeffM | and all clients process it |
| 01:20.57 | JeffM | that's what generates the message, the names are just extracted from the IDs in the message |
| 01:20.59 | thrakattak | just tested that on myself |
| 01:21.04 | JeffM | and if you are the victim, you explode |
| 01:21.15 | thrakattak | "thrak destroyed by the server" |
| 01:21.33 | JeffM | did the player actualy blow up? |
| 01:21.34 | thrakattak | so correct my earlier claim... s/killed/destroyed/ |
| 01:21.39 | thrakattak | yep |
| 01:21.55 | thrakattak | so i think a playful @ may be the culprit |
| 01:22.03 | thrakattak | that's the easiest answer |
| 01:22.11 | JeffM | yup |
| 01:22.44 | thrakattak | will grep for "/kill" later and that will be definitive |
| 01:24.21 | thrakattak | the timing was odd as uselessmine plugin had just been installed, coupled |
| 01:24.31 | JeffM | it could be a bug |
| 01:24.33 | thrakattak | with irregular lag/jit spikes |
| 01:24.44 | thrakattak | yeah. fingers crossed that's not the case |
| 01:26.01 | JeffM | but that message is generated by the MsgKilled packet |
| 01:26.14 | JeffM | somehow the server is sending them |
| 01:26.32 | JeffM | or a player is sending them from a shot assigned to the that playerID |
| 01:27.35 | thrakattak | hm. if it's of any interest/use at all: http://pastie.org/8581120 |
| 01:27.47 | JeffM | you'd ahve to check the BlowedUpReason field |
| 01:27.52 | JeffM | to know for sure |
| 01:27.55 | JeffM | chat means nothing |
| 01:28.01 | thrakattak | ok. |
| 01:28.18 | JeffM | oh wow |
| 01:28.20 | JeffM | yeah you got a cheater |
| 01:28.26 | thrakattak | thatis what i suspected |
| 01:28.47 | thrakattak | the flag shuffle bit... ? |
| 01:28.49 | JeffM | that's a lot of packet miss matches |
| 01:29.07 | JeffM | doesn't realy work anymore |
| 01:29.28 | JeffM | the server know what flag every player has and checks to see if the shot type is correct |
| 01:29.29 | thrakattak | and the nonexistent shot ids? |
| 01:29.43 | thrakattak | yeah ok. so then it is what you mentioned earlier... |
| 01:29.52 | JeffM | the server also knows how many shots can be alive for any player |
| 01:30.03 | JeffM | that's what the shot ID really is |
| 01:30.15 | thrakattak | you mentioned earlier could be the security checks |
| 01:30.29 | JeffM | that should not kill a player |
| 01:30.33 | JeffM | it just fixes the messages |
| 01:30.36 | thrakattak | k |
| 01:31.03 | JeffM | you'd have to mod the client to log out the BlowedUpReason from MsgKilled to see why the client thinks it should die |
| 01:31.12 | JeffM | if it's GotKilledMsg then it was /kill |
| 01:31.20 | JeffM | all others should be explanitory |
| 01:31.33 | thrakattak | ok |
| 01:31.46 | JeffM | you can log it in gotBlowedUp |
| 01:32.14 | JeffM | oh no sorry that'd only be if you got blowed up |
| 01:32.46 | thrakattak | possibly two issues then? cheater and (possibly) buggy plugin? |
| 01:32.48 | JeffM | non local players are processed in the middle of the switch statement |
| 01:32.59 | JeffM | no way of knowing |
| 01:33.12 | JeffM | cheater should not be able to send a kill message for another player |
| 01:33.41 | thrakattak | he was sending alot of kill msgs |
| 01:33.46 | thrakattak | from the log |
| 01:34.40 | thrakattak | disregard |
| 01:34.44 | thrakattak | wasn't. |
| 01:34.47 | JeffM | wow, our code is dumb |
| 01:35.17 | thrakattak | and i have to go back to original claim. here is the log event: |
| 01:35.19 | JeffM | yeah I can see how you could craft a message to kill anyone you wanted now |
| 01:35.28 | JeffM | it's a bug in bzfs |
| 01:36.04 | JeffM | we only do the killer sanity check if the killer is not the server player |
| 01:36.10 | thrakattak | i am in no position to help improve the code, so am grateful for it. what do you suffest in the mean time? |
| 01:36.27 | thrakattak | *suggest |
| 01:37.10 | thrakattak | unload plugin i guess as a start? |
| 01:37.21 | JeffM | no I have to look at the code |
| 01:37.38 | allejo | in other words, it's a bug with bzfs and the plugin is fine |
| 01:37.49 | JeffM | no bzfs is fine, I read it wrong |
| 01:38.01 | allejo | and i read jeff's statement wrong... nvm |
| 01:38.14 | JeffM | the victim field in the message sent to the server |
| 01:38.19 | JeffM | oh your plugin is probalby crap |
| 01:38.22 | thrakattak | lol |
| 01:38.27 | JeffM | but it probalby donesn't have anything to do with it |
| 01:38.39 | thrakattak | waits for the punchline |
| 01:38.40 | JeffM | the shot mod plugins are always unstable |
| 01:38.48 | JeffM | bzflag wasn't made for that type of tweaking |
| 01:39.03 | allejo | is this enigma's useless mine plugin or skill dude's? |
| 01:39.11 | thrakattak | skill dude |
| 01:40.39 | JeffM | yeah I don't think you can forge a kill message now |
| 01:40.40 | JeffM | tha'ts good |
| 01:41.34 | JeffM | the only other thing is a poll kill |
| 01:44.57 | thrakattak | will keep eye on behavior in meantime, and make sure we get peak debug value as well |
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| 07:27.18 | allejo | Is there any reason as to why "filename" is set to "commandLine" in the Init() of the recordmatch plugin? I don't ever see a time where that value would ever be used |
| 07:28.39 | allejo | and when is "path" ever set? |
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| 08:03.46 | BulletCatcher | Good eye, allejo. |
| 08:04.08 | BulletCatcher | That assignment to the "filename" variable seems pointless. |
| 08:04.25 | BulletCatcher | It may have made sense in some earlier version, I suppose. |
| 08:05.49 | BulletCatcher | And the "path" variable seems to be always empty, as std::string variables are always initialized that way. |
| 08:06.21 | allejo | That's what I figured, I would assume the "path" variable would be set to the location of the directory where recordings are stored but I don't see it being set to that anywhere... |
| 08:06.39 | allejo | weee empty variables |
| 08:06.47 | BulletCatcher | The bzfs -recdir parameter controls the location. |
| 08:07.17 | allejo | ah then maybe path was there before -recdir was added? |
| 08:07.23 | BulletCatcher | Could be. |
| 08:07.48 | BulletCatcher | Furthermore, any variables like those should be declared as "static" so there is no possibility of interference with other global variables of the same name. |
| 08:08.00 | BulletCatcher | In this case, I didn't find any global conflicts. |
| 08:08.55 | allejo | Global conflicts meaning with bzfs? |
| 08:09.00 | BulletCatcher | yes |
| 08:09.28 | allejo | so would you say it's say to remove those variables/assignments respectively? |
| 08:09.48 | BulletCatcher | I see no downside. |
| 08:12.02 | allejo | Should I make the started and filename variables static or move them inside the class declaration? |
| 08:13.23 | BulletCatcher | I'd move them inside the class, which seems to be a more C++ like way of doing it. |
| 08:13.30 | BulletCatcher | Either way would get the job done. |
| 08:16.59 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/EzQACQ |
| 08:17.00 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo 035c1cf8d - Removed useless variables and moved necessary variables inside the class |
| 08:17.06 | allejo | meh... the spacing on that plugin |
| 08:17.51 | BulletCatcher | The sooner you change editors, the sooner you'll get over that. |
| 08:18.10 | allejo | I actually used Xcode for the change |
| 08:18.34 | allejo | I mean.. does your editor change two spaces to tabs automatically in that specific file? |
| 08:18.45 | allejo | the class and Init use two spaces and everything else tabs lol |
| 08:19.24 | BulletCatcher | Oh, I see. |
| 08:19.42 | BulletCatcher | Yeah, the file does not follow a single whitespace rule. |
| 08:20.18 | allejo | hehe told ya :p |
| 08:21.30 | BulletCatcher | You may change it to comply with DEVINFO if you wish. |
| 08:23.35 | allejo | I'm fine with that, as long as spaces and tabs aren't fixed |
| 08:24.51 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/mD5YGg |
| 08:24.53 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo 036c185a6 - Fixed formatting to all tabs |
| 08:25.19 | allejo | ok I'm happy now |
| 08:25.33 | BulletCatcher | That's what's important. :-) |
| 08:27.29 | allejo | errr.. s/fixed/mixed |
| 08:27.43 | allejo | don't want the logs to show I'm contradicting myself :p |
| 08:35.53 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/seBqcA |
| 08:35.55 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo 034199c64 - Small oversight, removed useless recFile variable |
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| 17:19.12 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07JMakey pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/Z0z0lw |
| 17:19.13 | Not-006 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07JMakey 039447da1 - Comment out the name of unused ::Init() parameter. |
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| 18:54.17 | Snake12534 | blast007, JeffM, Do you guys know how to compile a plugin in Windows? |
| 18:54.18 | JeffM | yes |
| 18:54.21 | blast007 | yeah.. |
| 18:54.28 | Snake12534 | Or what software to use |
| 18:54.32 | blast007 | yes |
| 18:54.40 | JeffM | visual studio |
| 18:55.14 | Snake12534 | Will codeblocks work? |
| 18:55.16 | tw1sted | Snake12534: a quick search on the forums yielded this: http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=4910 |
| 18:55.18 | JeffM | nope |
| 18:55.25 | blast007 | hey Snake12534, guess what, this is covered in the README.WINDOWS file! |
| 18:55.28 | blast007 | so go read! |
| 18:55.29 | JeffM | indeed |
| 18:56.22 | blast007 | how'd the tutorials go, Snake12534? |
| 18:58.41 | Snake12534 | I think I can write the plugin you suggested blast007 after approx. 4 hours or 3 |
| 18:58.56 | blast007 | that wasn't what I asked |
| 18:59.06 | Snake12534 | but I didn't read anything, well sorta |
| 18:59.18 | JeffM | so much for dedication |
| 18:59.25 | JeffM | don't be lazy, do the work to learn it |
| 18:59.45 | Snake12534 | allejo taught me |
| 18:59.58 | blast007 | ~blame allejo |
| 18:59.58 | infobot | ACTION blames allejo (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 18:59.58 | Snake12534 | API is much less confusing now :) |
| 18:59.59 | JeffM | in a few hours with no reading.. impresive |
| 19:00.20 | JeffM | then you should ask him in private how to program, your his puppy now |
| 19:00.25 | JeffM | bahh you're |
| 19:00.36 | Snake12534 | which reminds me, thank you bzf devs for providing the hard work / API |
| 19:00.51 | Snake12534 | I think I've bothered him enough |
| 19:00.56 | blast007 | there's still hard work on your end.. the API isn't magic. |
| 19:00.57 | JeffM | nope |
| 19:01.02 | JeffM | not if you arn't willing to actualy learn |
| 19:01.11 | JeffM | he took on the task, we didn't |
| 19:01.38 | Snake12534 | The hi playername plugin on join event is really simple to execute |
| 19:01.46 | JeffM | yeah it should be |
| 19:01.58 | Snake12534 | i am willing to learn? |
| 19:02.06 | JeffM | but if you just know what to type there, and don't know WHY you are typing it you have not learned anything |
| 19:02.07 | Snake12534 | Where did you get the lazy part from |
| 19:02.26 | JeffM | how would you hook into the death event? |
| 19:02.35 | Snake12534 | i do know why, I'm simply not copy pasting |
| 19:02.45 | Snake12534 | There is no death event?? |
| 19:02.57 | JeffM | point proved |
| 19:03.08 | Snake12534 | ?? |
| 19:03.12 | JeffM | exactly |
| 19:03.35 | Snake12534 | what death event |
| 19:04.00 | Snake12534 | this is a bz_ePlayerJoinEvent |
| 19:04.18 | JeffM | I know what that event is, I am asking if you know how to hook into the death event |
| 19:04.19 | Snake12534 | and the message that is sent to them |
| 19:04.22 | JeffM | to see if you learned anything |
| 19:04.28 | blast007 | JeffM: think he's only focusing your question in the context of his "message on join" plugin |
| 19:04.37 | JeffM | of course he is |
| 19:04.37 | Snake12534 | it has nothing to do with tank deaths |
| 19:04.52 | blast007 | can't see through the fog in his mind ;) |
| 19:05.33 | Snake12534 | record |
| 19:05.42 | blast007 | rewind |
| 19:05.43 | blast007 | stop |
| 19:05.44 | JeffM | I know, I am asking you a question to see what you know |
| 19:05.47 | JeffM | it's not about your plugin |
| 19:05.54 | JeffM | I am testing you to see what you have learned |
| 19:06.05 | JeffM | if you had to hook into the death event how would you do it? |
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| 19:06.24 | Snake12534 | joinData->playerID |
| 19:06.39 | blast007 | is that your final answer? |
| 19:06.49 | Snake12534 | joinData is a variable name |
| 19:06.49 | Snake12534 | no |
| 19:07.09 | Snake12534 | I am trying to remember the sub variables |
| 19:07.40 | JeffM | this is what I am saying, you didn't realy learn anything other then what to type for one situation |
| 19:07.47 | JeffM | all events are handled in the same basic way |
| 19:07.59 | Snake12534 | wait |
| 19:08.05 | blast007 | no |
| 19:08.05 | Snake12534 | I answered this before |
| 19:08.28 | blast007 | check your logs then |
| 19:08.30 | Snake12534 | playerID->record |
| 19:08.50 | Snake12534 | I can't check my logs |
| 19:09.30 | JeffM | you have no clue how events work do you? |
| 19:09.41 | JeffM | do you know how you even hooked into the join event? |
| 19:10.09 | JeffM | I thought so |
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| 19:10.26 | Snake12534 | sorry |
| 19:12.42 | Snake12534 | and yes I do |
| 19:13.07 | JeffM | k, how did you do it? |
| 19:16.32 | *** join/#bzflag Snake12534 (~Snake1253@adsl-99-101-137-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:17.33 | Snake12534 | eventJoin->joinData->playerID |
| 19:17.43 | JeffM | nope |
| 19:17.48 | JeffM | that's how you got the player ID |
| 19:17.57 | JeffM | that isn't what I aked |
| 19:17.59 | JeffM | asked |
| 19:18.06 | JeffM | I asked how you hooked into the event |
| 19:18.15 | JeffM | how did you tell bzfs that you wanted to be told of the event |
| 19:18.48 | Snake12534 | what did you ask |
| 19:19.28 | JeffM | read the line above what you just typed |
| 19:19.53 | Snake12534 | eventType->eventJoin |
| 19:20.06 | JeffM | no |
| 19:21.47 | JeffM | lets try something more simple, what is your plugin class? |
| 19:22.13 | Snake12534 | am I rii |
| 19:22.24 | Snake12534 | right* |
| 19:22.29 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 19:22.50 | JeffM | you are nowhere near correct, and you seem to lack the ability to read what we type |
| 19:24.56 | Snake12534 | std::string 'bz_server' joinData->playerID->record ', welcome! |
| 19:25.07 | JeffM | that isn't even valid code |
| 19:25.13 | Snake12534 | ok |
| 19:25.13 | JeffM | wow |
| 19:25.20 | Snake12534 | ok |
| 19:25.32 | blast007 | you shouldn't let your cat write code for you |
| 19:25.33 | JeffM | why can't you just admit you didn't learn anything? |
| 19:25.45 | blast007 | hmm, or maybe you should.. |
| 19:25.53 | Snake12534 | i dont really care |
| 19:26.03 | JeffM | then why should we? |
| 19:26.14 | Snake12534 | whatever floats your boat |
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| 19:26.29 | JeffM | probably time for you to go skip |
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| 20:55.18 | Oejet | Hi. I'm thinking of purchasing a graphics card to speed up the frame rate. My built in Radeon HD 3000 isn't completely smooth, I feel. |
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| 20:59.13 | JeffM | yeah onboard ATI ain't great |
| 21:07.06 | Oejet | I'm thinking if, I could get away with something like Radeon HD 5450, or 6450. |
| 21:07.56 | JeffM | bzflag doens't use much so you'd probalby be fine |
| 21:08.17 | JeffM | I'm partial to nvidia over ati but ether of those should be fine |
| 21:08.59 | Oejet | :) I'm partial to not having to install drivers. |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | assuming they work ;) |
| 21:10.20 | JeffM | how man FPS are you getting now? |
| 21:11.52 | Oejet | The Radeon ones seem to be pretty good for the OpenGL features that BZFlag uses. |
| 21:12.06 | JeffM | when they work |
| 21:12.10 | JeffM | but yeah it should be ok |
| 21:12.14 | JeffM | newer cards are better |
| 21:12.38 | Oejet | JeffM: Don't know. My computer is under reconstruction. |
| 21:13.03 | Oejet | It's mostly the bushes with many leaves, which kills the FPS. |
| 21:14.23 | JeffM | that's probalby due to the use of shared ram on the onboard stuff |
| 21:14.33 | JeffM | vram on a dedicated card is much faster |
| 21:15.52 | Oejet | I'll keep that in mind. |
| 21:16.41 | JeffM | I don't think modern ATI cards have the texture mode problems older ones had |
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| 21:20.18 | Oejet | delves into what a texture mode is... |
| 21:20.46 | JeffM | it's how the card scales textures up and down |
| 21:21.30 | JeffM | we normaly use binlinear filtering but some of the ATI cards would not handle it correctly |
| 21:23.10 | Oejet | Each object, like a leaf, is scaled depending how close we are to it? |
| 21:23.52 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:24.24 | JeffM | the texture has a fixed number of pixels, and it ha to be drawn a different size depending on distance and orientation |
| 21:25.14 | Oejet | Makes sense. |
| 21:27.14 | Oejet | And the video memory is used to store hopefully all the textures used in a map. |
| 21:27.24 | Oejet | (a bzflag map) |
| 21:27.30 | JeffM | ohh yeah |
| 21:27.37 | JeffM | we use very little texture memory |
| 21:28.04 | JeffM | but it all depnds on the map |
| 21:29.26 | JeffM | but I've never seen any map use over a couple megs of textures |
| 21:32.11 | blast007 | Winny's Rat's Nest map uses 7.7MB of PNG files. |
| 21:32.23 | *** mode/#bzflag [-o blast007] by blast007 |
| 21:32.56 | JeffM | so nearly 10 whole megabits |
| 21:33.21 | blast007 | but that's the PNG versions. would they be larger in the GPU memory? |
| 21:33.38 | JeffM | depends on the card |
| 21:33.46 | JeffM | in some cases they would be |
| 21:34.15 | JeffM | but yeah even then it's not going to be over several hundred megs |
| 23:07.54 | *** join/#bzflag ahs3- (~ahs3-@adsl-065-005-193-158.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net) |
| 23:29.44 | thrakattak | all this talk about graphics, makes me wonder: any opencl implementations in the codebase? |
| 23:30.21 | blast007 | hah |
| 23:30.30 | thrakattak | slinks away |
| 23:32.59 | thrakattak | btw: is the rat's nest map available on the forum? |
| 23:34.59 | blast007 | I think it was, but I can't recall. |
| 23:35.30 | blast007 | it needs some work, and I had fixed at least one issue with the spawning |
| 23:35.55 | blast007 | still issues with getting team flags stuck in places |
| 23:36.29 | thrakattak | found Spazzy McGee's Rat Run map... difft map? |
| 23:37.10 | thrakattak | ok will poke around |
| 23:37.57 | blast007 | yeah, different map |
| 23:38.25 | blast007 | http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=13254 |
| 23:39.10 | thrakattak | oh yeah i like that map. played it many times. |
| 23:39.48 | thrakattak | have tried couple GUI map editors |
| 23:40.06 | thrakattak | cant seem to get file i am working on to open properly in either one |
| 23:40.13 | thrakattak | so am left with manual editing |
| 23:40.32 | thrakattak | i would like to extract a single structure from the map... |
| 23:40.56 | blast007 | there isn't any map editors that handle all of our features |
| 23:41.30 | thrakattak | yeah, i know i've asked alot about this before |
| 23:41.55 | thrakattak | seems the file in question has just enough in it to not open in bzedit nor bzwb |
| 23:42.25 | blast007 | wouldn't take much to make bzeditw32 to barf ;) |
| 23:42.30 | thrakattak | lol |
| 23:42.41 | blast007 | that's designed for BZFlag 1.7 |
| 23:42.46 | thrakattak | apparently it doesnt like "flipz" |
| 23:43.02 | blast007 | yeah... think that was either a 1.10 or 2.0 feature |
| 23:43.37 | thrakattak | i nuked all the instances of the term, still didnt like it |
| 23:43.39 | blast007 | back in 1.7, pyramids in the air didn't even collide with your tank :P |
| 23:43.39 | thrakattak | but i am not here to bash bzwb |
| 23:44.05 | blast007 | bzwb sucks almost as much as bzedit |
| 23:44.11 | thrakattak | just wondering if there is a way, short of exhaustive/exhausting process of elimination... |
| 23:44.24 | thrakattak | to extract the structure in question |
| 23:44.33 | thrakattak | file not annotated ): |
| 23:44.58 | blast007 | probably not |
| 23:45.23 | thrakattak | i feel like jim carrey in "dumb in dumber" |
| 23:45.49 | thrakattak | dang |
| 23:45.54 | blast007 | if you yank out all the non-supported items you might be able to pull out the pieces by deleting everything else, but then you might not know what stuff to put back because it would be all mixed around |
| 23:46.17 | thrakattak | yeah... i managed to delete everything else in the obj version of the file in blender... |
| 23:46.32 | thrakattak | but the bzw exporter does not seem to work |
| 23:46.37 | thrakattak | (likely user error) |
| 23:46.54 | thrakattak | so i exported an obj file which looks nice enough... |
| 23:47.01 | thrakattak | but is not the format i need |
| 23:47.16 | blast007 | wings3d has a built-in BZW exporter |
| 23:47.20 | *** join/#bzflag ashvala (~ashvala@unaffiliated/ashvala) |
| 23:47.22 | blast007 | and there's also modeltool |
| 23:47.32 | thrakattak | blender -> map.obj -> winds3d -> map.bzw |
| 23:47.39 | thrakattak | that worked |
| 23:47.48 | blast007 | or s/wings3d/modeltool/ |
| 23:48.47 | thrakattak | hm. ok. |
| 23:49.52 | thrakattak | is the BZW exporter for blender broken for current versions of blender? |
| 23:59.13 | blast007 | you mean BZWTools? definitely |
| 23:59.46 | blast007 | or at least, I could never get it to work with newer versions |