| 00:01.04 | Constitution | I got the client to compile and run with SDL 2, but there are still some issues to be worked out |
| 00:01.46 | JeffM | cool |
| 00:01.52 | JeffM | so it wasn't too hard then was it? |
| 00:01.56 | khonkhortisan | Thanks for beating everyone else to it |
| 00:02.18 | Constitution | er? I guess it was so easy, even I could do it ;) |
| 00:02.28 | Delusional | heh |
| 00:02.42 | JeffM | does it seem to show the same problems with resolutions and gama that 1.x did? |
| 00:03.08 | Constitution | the big issues are namely some odd window behavior, and the lack of unicode character info for key press events |
| 00:03.19 | khonkhortisan | we didn't have unicode before? |
| 00:03.49 | Constitution | I don't know? I could never reproduce them. I wanted to get things cleaned up a little bit more before I post it |
| 00:04.01 | JeffM | we did not do unicode before |
| 00:04.16 | Constitution | khonkhortisan: http://wiki.libsdl.org/MigrationGuide#Input |
| 00:04.17 | JeffM | unicode support was added with 2.99 |
| 00:04.47 | Constitution | we didn't really use it as unicode, but that was apparently how we got the ascii character data |
| 00:04.54 | JeffM | ahh |
| 00:05.03 | JeffM | well I'm sure there is some way to get the ascii now |
| 00:05.03 | Constitution | now there is a completely different event for text input |
| 00:05.13 | JeffM | cool, that sounds better |
| 00:05.26 | khonkhortisan | SDL_TEXTINPUT |
| 00:05.42 | *** join/#bzflag G4JC (~Gaming4JC@unaffiliated/gaming4jc) |
| 00:05.45 | JeffM | so it all sounds solveable |
| 00:06.05 | G4JC | Hey guys! Someone just brought this up and it seems reasonable. Support for Mumble Audio chat - http://mumble.sourceforge.net/Link |
| 00:07.44 | brad | what does it do? |
| 00:08.02 | khonkhortisan | I think positional audio is better in a game where there's a large world that you have to walk to people to talk to them |
| 00:08.03 | JeffM | it lets you specify where to play various chat sounds |
| 00:08.05 | G4JC | enable in-game voicechat. OpenSource works with anyone using Mumble |
| 00:08.23 | JeffM | G4JC, it's not just that |
| 00:08.34 | G4JC | and it's positional audio per player. |
| 00:08.37 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:08.44 | JeffM | so we'd have to know what players had what mumble |
| 00:10.03 | JeffM | it's cool that they support that |
| 00:11.12 | G4JC | yeah, plus it's low latency and has some basic encrytion to prevent anyone from wiretapping you on wifi. |
| 00:11.27 | G4JC | seems like a nice feature for the game (and others) |
| 00:11.37 | JeffM | why would anyone want to listen to people play a silly tank game? |
| 00:11.52 | G4JC | I know a bunch of people using Skype for that purpose right now |
| 00:12.00 | G4JC | and I don't support skype anymore ;) |
| 00:12.13 | G4JC | so you can stay stuff like |
| 00:12.20 | G4JC | "On their base, to your left!" |
| 00:12.21 | G4JC | lol. |
| 00:12.22 | JeffM | I mean the wiretap part, I understand the need for voice chat |
| 00:12.25 | khonkhortisan | Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? |
| 00:12.27 | G4JC | oh right right |
| 00:12.37 | G4JC | well ... |
| 00:12.54 | JeffM | the main issue with built in voice chat is hosting the servers not the integration |
| 00:13.01 | JeffM | mumble already works quite well |
| 00:13.09 | G4JC | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_surveillance_disclosures |
| 00:13.11 | G4JC | that's why |
| 00:13.11 | G4JC | :P |
| 00:13.20 | JeffM | so fud |
| 00:13.22 | JeffM | whatevs |
| 00:13.33 | G4JC | no fud there, total fact |
| 00:13.41 | G4JC | but it's nice to have regardless. |
| 00:13.48 | JeffM | a fact you applied to this game for fud reasions ;) |
| 00:14.07 | JeffM | lots of things are nice to have |
| 00:14.31 | G4JC | you do realize this entire project could just use a kickstarter |
| 00:14.34 | JeffM | bahh, left handed Y up Cs. lame |
| 00:14.39 | G4JC | and hire devs to get life to it again |
| 00:14.48 | G4JC | points at TimRiker |
| 00:14.50 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:14.51 | JeffM | you do realize that this entire project doesn't have a company to receive the money from a kickstarter? |
| 00:15.15 | JeffM | yeah we've been down that road with no traction |
| 00:15.46 | JeffM | if we did a kickstarter, better to just use the money to rewrite the entire thing |
| 00:16.16 | G4JC | well... 1) Make a non-profit business, 2) Hire bounty hunters (freedom-sponsors) |
| 00:16.19 | JeffM | kickstart, make a new codebase, get into steam greenlight |
| 00:16.19 | G4JC | or... |
| 00:16.25 | G4JC | use cryptocoins? :P |
| 00:16.36 | JeffM | all but the last silly one have been looked into |
| 00:16.54 | JeffM | nobody wants to host us, and it would be very hard to qualify as a non profit |
| 00:17.02 | JeffM | it's actualy cheaper to be a for profit and just make no profit |
| 00:17.03 | G4JC | define "host" |
| 00:17.07 | G4JC | like the website? |
| 00:17.08 | JeffM | be our sponsor |
| 00:17.11 | G4JC | ah. |
| 00:17.26 | JeffM | be the company that took over copyright to act as our foundation |
| 00:17.26 | G4JC | well I don't think anyone has made anything on freedomsponsors |
| 00:17.30 | G4JC | basically all that means is |
| 00:17.44 | G4JC | you pay a lump sum to whomever fixes a bug |
| 00:17.48 | G4JC | so it goes straight to the dev |
| 00:17.49 | JeffM | a number of umbrella orgs wee asked |
| 00:17.55 | JeffM | yeah that's just code bounties |
| 00:17.59 | G4JC | right |
| 00:18.02 | blast007 | G4JC: as for mumble support in BZFlag, I'm almost thinking that 2.99.x had support for it |
| 00:18.03 | G4JC | could work though, it has in the past |
| 00:18.03 | khonkhortisan | I tried one bounty hunt, and someone beat me to it |
| 00:18.05 | G4JC | see e.g. GIMP. |
| 00:18.05 | JeffM | but the you have to give them a 1099 for tax reasons |
| 00:18.17 | blast007 | not sure if that was mentioned yet as I haven't read all the backlog |
| 00:18.20 | JeffM | if they make over 650$ a year |
| 00:18.37 | JeffM | has done a lot of research on this |
| 00:18.40 | G4JC | not our problem |
| 00:18.43 | G4JC | freedom-sponsors has to do it |
| 00:18.47 | G4JC | go through them :P |
| 00:18.53 | JeffM | yeah and they'd have to take over copyright |
| 00:19.03 | JeffM | and copyright transfer has been an issue |
| 00:19.04 | G4JC | just for the bug |
| 00:19.07 | G4JC | not the entire program |
| 00:19.28 | G4JC | http://freedomsponsors.org/ (those guys) |
| 00:19.49 | JeffM | I don't think you'd get that any donations using that type of system |
| 00:19.55 | JeffM | the userbase is not large |
| 00:19.58 | G4JC | I could do it right now without your assistence, but it's better to know which critical bugs to start donating to |
| 00:19.58 | JeffM | and mostly under age |
| 00:20.26 | G4JC | http://freedomsponsors.org/core/stats/ help? |
| 00:20.28 | JeffM | "rewrite networking" |
| 00:20.46 | JeffM | yeah, that is less then I would hope for |
| 00:21.02 | G4JC | better than nothing |
| 00:21.04 | G4JC | but not the best |
| 00:21.12 | JeffM | a proper kickstarter with goals would be best |
| 00:21.29 | G4JC | but like you said you're all too afraid to open an .org :P |
| 00:21.38 | JeffM | it isn't about fear |
| 00:21.43 | blast007 | we *can't* |
| 00:21.47 | G4JC | why? |
| 00:21.53 | blast007 | we don't own the copyright. tim does. |
| 00:22.02 | G4JC | TimRiker is still alive right? |
| 00:22.05 | G4JC | why does he disapprove |
| 00:22.09 | khonkhortisan | G4JC, make your browser narrower. The words go above and below the navigation bar. |
| 00:22.14 | JeffM | he had his reasons |
| 00:22.17 | JeffM | we very specificly asked |
| 00:22.29 | JeffM | so there is nothing we can do |
| 00:23.15 | TimRiker | huh? wha? |
| 00:23.23 | khonkhortisan | lol hello |
| 00:23.25 | G4JC | TimRiker: Hi! :D |
| 00:23.41 | G4JC | so we were discussing why we can't bring some life to this legendary game |
| 00:23.57 | G4JC | and you'd need to kickstart it which requires an .org to handle funding |
| 00:24.06 | blast007 | life we can bring, but not necessarily through the methods you're talking about |
| 00:24.12 | G4JC | TimRiker: so that question was what were the reasons not to do this? :) |
| 00:24.18 | JeffM | you don't NEED an org, any company will do |
| 00:24.33 | G4JC | well there ya go then |
| 00:24.34 | G4JC | even easier. |
| 00:24.39 | JeffM | you just need some taxable entity |
| 00:25.13 | G4JC | TimRiker: Other projects have really taken off with KickStarter, I think it's a viable option. :) |
| 00:25.15 | JeffM | prooving your meet non-profit requirements is harder these days |
| 00:25.31 | JeffM | G4JC, not all work out the way you think |
| 00:25.39 | JeffM | it's a viable option but you must know the risks |
| 00:25.46 | JeffM | it's not just free money :) |
| 00:25.47 | G4JC | risks are it flops |
| 00:25.51 | G4JC | and there's a percentage |
| 00:25.53 | G4JC | and taxes |
| 00:25.59 | JeffM | there are lots of issues |
| 00:26.13 | JeffM | underestimating the processing cost of rewards |
| 00:26.15 | G4JC | and I guess you could get sued if some guy had a seizure while viewing the page |
| 00:26.19 | blast007 | there are issues with kickstarters, like trolls that pledge a big amount and then bail at the last second so the campaign fails ;) |
| 00:26.21 | G4JC | but it's unlikely |
| 00:26.21 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:26.24 | TimRiker | what bonuses would you offer to the kickstartees? |
| 00:26.27 | JeffM | most kickstarters that work are not for things that are free |
| 00:26.30 | blast007 | TimRiker: hats! |
| 00:26.38 | TimRiker | and shirts! :) |
| 00:26.38 | JeffM | yeah that's the issue, the rewards |
| 00:26.43 | G4JC | TimRiker: Improved networking, new graphics, shirts/hats |
| 00:26.49 | G4JC | take a look at OpenShot |
| 00:26.52 | JeffM | G4JC, no what do the people that PAY get? |
| 00:26.52 | G4JC | they did fair for the low budget |
| 00:27.02 | JeffM | what do they get over the people that don't pay? |
| 00:27.10 | G4JC | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/421164014/openshot-video-editor-for-windows-mac-and-linux |
| 00:27.46 | JeffM | yeah look at the rewards |
| 00:27.50 | G4JC | you get ubber cool "I kickstarted" in-game badges :P |
| 00:27.50 | JeffM | they don't really apply to bzflag |
| 00:27.56 | JeffM | "early beta access" |
| 00:27.56 | blast007 | so is open-shot not exactly "open" if they you can get "early access" to the betas? |
| 00:28.22 | G4JC | technically the github is the same I'd think |
| 00:28.25 | JeffM | it can be done it's just not as easy |
| 00:28.34 | JeffM | then there is no benfit for those that play |
| 00:28.38 | G4JC | unless there's the ubber secret alpha github |
| 00:28.39 | G4JC | lol. |
| 00:28.42 | JeffM | I can see why that one worked, as it's a tool people need |
| 00:28.47 | JeffM | a tool adults need |
| 00:28.53 | G4JC | and there's games that have worked too. |
| 00:28.53 | JeffM | most bzflag fans are kids |
| 00:29.01 | JeffM | yeah, have they been open source and free? |
| 00:29.10 | JeffM | or does the kickstarter presell the game? |
| 00:29.24 | G4JC | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/celsiusgs/drifter-a-space-trading-game |
| 00:29.43 | JeffM | yeah the reward was a copy of the game |
| 00:29.44 | TimRiker | for $100 you can download the game just like everyone else. |
| 00:29.56 | G4JC | no you get it on a shiny DVD |
| 00:29.58 | G4JC | limited edition |
| 00:29.59 | G4JC | ;) |
| 00:30.02 | JeffM | you have to have a carrot |
| 00:30.06 | G4JC | with poster for your wall |
| 00:30.12 | G4JC | and if you want to go all out |
| 00:30.12 | JeffM | possibly it's just not as easy as you make it out to be |
| 00:30.16 | G4JC | a personal message from Tim Riker |
| 00:30.18 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:30.24 | blast007 | "Hi" |
| 00:30.33 | TimRiker | "contributions welcome" |
| 00:30.35 | JeffM | being positive is nice, but you also have to be realistic |
| 00:31.00 | G4JC | usually it's more like... "Thank you for contributing to BZFlag." |
| 00:31.06 | G4JC | and you sign it on a poster |
| 00:31.08 | G4JC | and people collect them |
| 00:31.09 | G4JC | :P |
| 00:31.13 | JeffM | if we made 100,000$ I could make wood tanks |
| 00:31.15 | blast007 | make BZFlag a Minecraft mod |
| 00:31.21 | G4JC | lol... |
| 00:31.27 | JeffM | just bust it out in unity ;) |
| 00:31.40 | TimRiker | 3d printable tank with your name embossed |
| 00:31.40 | blast007 | but that's not Java enough |
| 00:31.52 | G4JC | TimRiker: now that's kinda awesome, as long as they get source code for the model |
| 00:31.54 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:31.56 | khonkhortisan | it could be made into a minetest mod, but the lag is worse there |
| 00:32.03 | JeffM | TimRiker, naw mill them, who needs wimpy printing |
| 00:32.10 | TimRiker | JeffM, heh |
| 00:32.13 | G4JC | well |
| 00:32.17 | G4JC | kids can print more than one |
| 00:32.19 | G4JC | play tanks offline |
| 00:32.22 | G4JC | MakerBot style |
| 00:32.29 | JeffM | the tank model would cut decently well in several pieces, I build a program for it once |
| 00:32.40 | khonkhortisan | not many kids have 3d printers and millers |
| 00:32.46 | JeffM | don't even get me started on makerbot |
| 00:32.47 | G4JC | I know quite a few that do |
| 00:32.49 | G4JC | :P |
| 00:33.00 | JeffM | the filliment is what kills you |
| 00:33.57 | TimRiker | JeffM, price of the filament ? or consistency? |
| 00:34.03 | JeffM | the price |
| 00:34.06 | JeffM | it ain't cheap |
| 00:34.11 | TimRiker | nods |
| 00:34.31 | JeffM | if you are going to 3d print may as well just laser sinter it |
| 00:35.16 | TimRiker | there has been talk in the past about a console version of the game. that would work as a kickstarter project I think, but it's a tough circle to get into. |
| 00:35.25 | JeffM | it is |
| 00:35.43 | G4JC | TimRiker: Not really, port it to ARM then you can jump right into OUYA. |
| 00:35.43 | blast007 | don't really think that helps us anyway |
| 00:35.44 | JeffM | steam would be your best bet to play bzflag on a set top box |
| 00:35.45 | G4JC | Micropayments |
| 00:35.51 | TimRiker | platforms like whatever the new nvidia box is look interesting. but probably would need a complete rewrite of the code |
| 00:35.54 | G4JC | (but I hate micropayments) |
| 00:35.59 | TimRiker | not that this would be a bad thing.. |
| 00:36.01 | blast007 | G4JC: we already run on ARM |
| 00:36.04 | JeffM | G4JC, micropayments for what? |
| 00:36.13 | G4JC | e.g. you pay to play, nearly like an arcade |
| 00:36.18 | G4JC | the initial game is free but you don't progress |
| 00:36.27 | TimRiker | progress? who progresses? |
| 00:36.27 | G4JC | without paying a few dimes every couple hours to get new stuff |
| 00:36.34 | JeffM | yeah that's not really in the spirt of open source |
| 00:36.36 | G4JC | e.g. new bullets new tanks |
| 00:36.40 | G4JC | I think it's just wrong |
| 00:36.41 | G4JC | lol |
| 00:36.46 | G4JC | however |
| 00:36.53 | G4JC | extra levels I could see being payable I guess |
| 00:36.55 | JeffM | if you wanted to sell something, sell service |
| 00:37.02 | G4JC | if they were really professional |
| 00:37.09 | JeffM | kickstarters get access to a members only server |
| 00:37.15 | G4JC | there yeah go |
| 00:37.18 | G4JC | with new maps |
| 00:37.19 | JeffM | change to host games for a leauge |
| 00:37.21 | G4JC | only for members |
| 00:37.37 | JeffM | then the software is free, people can run it whereever they want |
| 00:37.39 | TimRiker | I could see a pay network tied to skins and meshes. free tanks look like this: a, b, c, d and there are these pay skins/meshes that are wicked cool. |
| 00:37.49 | G4JC | yeah |
| 00:37.50 | JeffM | that's the valve model TimRiker |
| 00:37.53 | JeffM | it's all about hats |
| 00:38.03 | TimRiker | but then server admins will want $$ and you need to build a pay network as well as a game. |
| 00:38.14 | JeffM | thats why you host the servers for those |
| 00:38.17 | G4JC | but then you have to keep the FSF model as well. Software as a service is scarey and we might have to fork it :D |
| 00:38.34 | G4JC | but generally some isn't bad to sustain the projects growth |
| 00:38.37 | JeffM | server admins that want to host can do so but don't get access to the cashflow |
| 00:38.45 | JeffM | hosting is pretty cheap these days |
| 00:38.47 | G4JC | yep |
| 00:38.57 | TimRiker | note: it's LGPL on purpose. if someone wants to build a proprietary plugin that handles pay-to-hat then they could. |
| 00:39.08 | JeffM | if we could load hats :) |
| 00:39.13 | G4JC | GPLv3 it and force them not to |
| 00:39.14 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:39.16 | JeffM | the issue isnt' the license, it's the software |
| 00:39.24 | G4JC | license is important too though |
| 00:39.30 | G4JC | anyway regarding servers |
| 00:39.35 | JeffM | sure, the current lgpl is fine |
| 00:39.38 | JeffM | it's functional |
| 00:39.49 | TimRiker | I'm just pointing out that Someone™ could do it whether I'm around or not. |
| 00:39.50 | G4JC | lowendbox has had 3TB bandwith and 100GB HDD for $30 on blackfriday |
| 00:39.50 | G4JC | vps |
| 00:39.52 | G4JC | cheap :D |
| 00:39.56 | JeffM | TimRiker, yes they could |
| 00:40.15 | blast007 | yeah, let's get a cheap VPS that will have performance issues |
| 00:40.28 | G4JC | VPS aren't that bad |
| 00:40.33 | TimRiker | at least they will be cheap performance issues. |
| 00:40.33 | G4JC | but some can be lame |
| 00:40.37 | JeffM | depends what you do with them |
| 00:40.52 | G4JC | right, good to test with |
| 00:40.53 | JeffM | most are fine for hosting but won't hold a constant stream |
| 00:40.55 | G4JC | until you go dedicated |
| 00:40.56 | G4JC | :P |
| 00:41.07 | G4JC | I doubt the load is that much |
| 00:41.11 | TimRiker | let's use the home router back door to install bzflag on everyones home router. then we'll have tons of slow servers. |
| 00:41.14 | JeffM | with decent income getting a set of dedicated servers to run multiple instances would be fine |
| 00:41.22 | JeffM | G4JC, "load" is very hard to define |
| 00:41.26 | blast007 | it's more about the resource sharing with everyone else on the system |
| 00:41.37 | G4JC | dude you could do that... |
| 00:41.37 | JeffM | bzflag doesn't use many resources, but it expoects them to constantly accessable |
| 00:41.42 | G4JC | decentralized hosting P2P style |
| 00:41.43 | G4JC | https://arkos.io/ |
| 00:41.46 | G4JC | make it work with those |
| 00:41.48 | G4JC | lol. |
| 00:41.54 | JeffM | you are just full of buzwords arn't you? |
| 00:42.13 | Constitution | so many ideas and but so few accomplishments these days |
| 00:42.15 | JeffM | the unity tests I did allows for a client to be a host too, even behind a nat |
| 00:42.20 | TimRiker | bzfs runs fine on a pi now. |
| 00:42.35 | G4JC | nice. |
| 00:42.37 | JeffM | heh "Decentralize your web" |
| 00:43.00 | G4JC | it's better that way though |
| 00:43.07 | G4JC | I've seen tons of game servers just die overnight |
| 00:43.12 | G4JC | decentralized means you can't kill it |
| 00:43.14 | JeffM | for specific values of "web" |
| 00:43.21 | blast007 | eh... no it doesn't |
| 00:43.28 | G4JC | means you can take out nodes |
| 00:43.31 | G4JC | but gl with getting them all |
| 00:43.32 | G4JC | :) |
| 00:43.35 | TimRiker | used to run a minecraft server too, till the licensing change |
| 00:43.42 | blast007 | I don't know what you're even talking about, G4JC |
| 00:43.54 | JeffM | blast007, the CLOUD! |
| 00:43.57 | G4JC | blast007: peer to peer technology |
| 00:44.00 | JeffM | it solves all problems |
| 00:44.01 | blast007 | G4JC: what about it? |
| 00:44.12 | JeffM | G4JC, do you know what "latency" is? |
| 00:44.16 | G4JC | yep |
| 00:44.19 | JeffM | and how it affects real time games? |
| 00:44.27 | G4JC | with better network topology it can not be so bad |
| 00:44.30 | TimRiker | we have that. try to take out all the bzflag servers. they are distributed all over the place. :) |
| 00:44.42 | blast007 | and peer-to-peer has issues with firewalls and NAT and exposes IP address of other players |
| 00:44.46 | JeffM | P2P increases bandwith, not latency |
| 00:44.54 | TimRiker | we often have more servers than players |
| 00:45.02 | JeffM | keeping a state synced across the pees is not easy |
| 00:45.02 | G4JC | TimRiker: You can host MineTest servers :) |
| 00:45.09 | G4JC | MineTest is free software |
| 00:45.10 | JeffM | TimRiker, we always have more servers then players |
| 00:45.21 | JeffM | player counts are usualy under 50 |
| 00:45.22 | G4JC | right... |
| 00:45.29 | G4JC | I've seen the same people on there for years |
| 00:45.31 | G4JC | tbh |
| 00:45.36 | blast007 | I don't know what you mean by "killing" a server overnight... I don't think someone other than the owner is generally the cause of a server shutting down in BZFlag :P |
| 00:45.59 | JeffM | we just need to leverage our synergy |
| 00:46.04 | G4JC | blast007: e.g. bzflag domain stops resolving, main server list goes down... poff. |
| 00:46.12 | G4JC | luckily it's opensource |
| 00:46.13 | G4JC | but |
| 00:46.21 | G4JC | you'd have to rebuild it and fork it to continue |
| 00:46.21 | JeffM | thats just service clustering |
| 00:46.31 | JeffM | you can do that for websites, it's harder to do for games |
| 00:46.37 | blast007 | uh, that is not a problem that needs a peer-to-peer system... |
| 00:46.43 | JeffM | you should look at how MMOs handle it |
| 00:46.51 | JeffM | and the reason they don't run peer to peer |
| 00:47.05 | JeffM | you think cheatings bad now, P2P would make it unplayable |
| 00:47.12 | G4JC | blast007: well there's two solutions. CDN (clouds) or P2P but P2P is much more difficult |
| 00:47.13 | TimRiker | blast007, dos attacks |
| 00:47.32 | G4JC | CDN is basically centralized P2P, severs instead of users |
| 00:47.34 | JeffM | G4JC, there are way more then 2 :) |
| 00:47.45 | G4JC | the most popular ? :P |
| 00:47.57 | G4JC | seems like everyone is using Amazon S3 |
| 00:48.01 | G4JC | which is cloud |
| 00:48.02 | JeffM | for content yes |
| 00:48.07 | JeffM | a game is not content |
| 00:48.11 | JeffM | it is not static |
| 00:48.17 | JeffM | it is interactive |
| 00:48.29 | G4JC | Amazon S3 is for your maps, textures, etc. |
| 00:48.34 | JeffM | sure tha'ts just hosting |
| 00:48.36 | JeffM | that's not the problem |
| 00:48.38 | G4JC | servers are for reading back the code from the clients |
| 00:48.43 | JeffM | those are a VERY small part of the picture |
| 00:48.46 | blast007 | that's silly to use S3 for that... |
| 00:48.58 | TimRiker | textures maps and models could be in a cdn. but they are only a tiny fraction of the bandwidth. |
| 00:49.10 | JeffM | it's the latency for the gamestate |
| 00:49.24 | JeffM | you will increase latency if you try to keep more systems in sync |
| 00:49.34 | G4JC | hmm |
| 00:49.39 | JeffM | you also loose the central authority for the game state |
| 00:49.45 | JeffM | so cheating becomes even easer |
| 00:49.54 | JeffM | the problem with cheating now is that the game state is too distributed |
| 00:50.00 | JeffM | clients do too much |
| 00:50.11 | JeffM | I have to trust you to die when I shoot you |
| 00:50.37 | TimRiker | the server does not verify enough. the clients can do the work, but the server needs to do it too so it can validate. |
| 00:50.55 | JeffM | indeed |
| 00:51.05 | JeffM | authoritive state FTW |
| 00:51.11 | JeffM | so easy in unity :) |
| 00:51.28 | TimRiker | if there is a mesh of servers, then you need to decide where the authority is. ie: more latency. |
| 00:51.36 | G4JC | there's been a lot of study on P2P games but I don't see any working implementations per se... e.g. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.1.3588 |
| 00:51.56 | JeffM | yeah because it has lots of problems |
| 00:52.13 | JeffM | with how cheap computers and bandwith are, it's not worth it |
| 00:52.30 | TimRiker | bzflag used to use the server mostly to locate players, then use multicast and trust peers for game state. |
| 00:52.33 | JeffM | I've seen it work for turn based games |
| 00:52.53 | JeffM | thankfully bzfs does a bit more now :) |
| 00:52.57 | JeffM | but still not enough |
| 00:53.03 | TimRiker | as multicast does not work over the internet, that was short lived. and the server started to network anyway. mostly pass through. |
| 00:53.03 | JeffM | it doesn't even know where shots are |
| 00:53.28 | TimRiker | as we've progressed we added more checks on the server and less blind routing. |
| 00:53.50 | TimRiker | p2p makes those checks harder, just like multicast did. |
| 00:53.55 | JeffM | it's not just checks, all flag pickup logic is server side now |
| 00:54.02 | G4JC | geeze :( |
| 00:54.03 | G4JC | well |
| 00:54.12 | G4JC | the only other thing I can think of |
| 00:54.25 | G4JC | is some type of distributed server system |
| 00:54.28 | JeffM | it's cool to see your enthisiasm, just know that we've had a long time to think about many of these ideas |
| 00:54.28 | G4JC | not P2P per se. |
| 00:54.47 | JeffM | don't get services and game server mixed up |
| 00:54.58 | JeffM | clustering for website and list server are good ideas |
| 00:55.07 | G4JC | let me duckduckgo it ... :) |
| 00:55.07 | JeffM | if our useage was higher we'd go that route |
| 00:55.10 | TimRiker | if/when we all get ipv6 from our local service provider, multicast could be available, but solving the authority issue on p2p gaming is non-trivial. easily exploitable. |
| 00:55.36 | JeffM | it would be silly to go back to multicast, at that point the bandwith won't be the issue :) |
| 00:55.55 | JeffM | G4JC, what problem are you trying to solve? not having 5000 people in the same game? |
| 00:56.15 | G4JC | JeffM: right... however that's perhaps jumping the gun at this point since we don't even have that many players |
| 00:56.29 | G4JC | best to start small |
| 00:56.35 | JeffM | our game mechanic would not hold for that many players on one map |
| 00:56.37 | TimRiker | one 3d space where you can drive/teleport from one server to another. :) |
| 00:56.40 | JeffM | so it's silly to even ponder it |
| 00:56.53 | G4JC | TimRiker: that would be cool actually. |
| 00:56.54 | JeffM | you could easaly cluster a loby server |
| 00:57.01 | JeffM | bzflag is not a MMO |
| 00:57.08 | G4JC | (yet ^^ ) |
| 00:57.13 | JeffM | it never will be |
| 00:57.18 | JeffM | it will always be a group of game instances |
| 00:57.21 | G4JC | with the proper excitement it might be |
| 00:57.29 | G4JC | that is to say you'll get tons of people |
| 00:57.31 | G4JC | crashing servers |
| 00:57.32 | G4JC | lol. |
| 00:57.35 | JeffM | it would not be fun to have to shoot 5000 people on the same map |
| 00:57.38 | TimRiker | Yo dude, check my new tank hat! |
| 00:57.53 | G4JC | yay tank hats. |
| 00:57.55 | JeffM | bzflag is more like TF2 then WoW |
| 00:58.00 | G4JC | yeah |
| 00:58.12 | JeffM | TF2 doesn't run on a single server, or even a single server cluster |
| 00:58.13 | TimRiker | just think the scoreboard could be large enough to be completely unusable. |
| 00:58.16 | JeffM | each game runs on A server |
| 00:58.19 | JeffM | just like we do now |
| 00:58.28 | G4JC | in that case server limits are fine |
| 00:58.33 | G4JC | since anyone can "host" their own server |
| 00:58.38 | JeffM | exactly |
| 00:58.44 | G4JC | as long as the main servers can handle load of logging in |
| 00:58.48 | JeffM | it's a bunch of small game instances with match making services |
| 00:58.49 | G4JC | and sending maps and notices |
| 00:58.56 | JeffM | those are small parts |
| 00:59.06 | JeffM | they don't happen that often and latency is not a big issue there |
| 00:59.33 | JeffM | those services can operate on a time scale of seconds, game servers have to operate on a time scale of milliseconds |
| 00:59.34 | G4JC | ok, then the second issue is protecting users from malicious server owners to some degree |
| 00:59.42 | G4JC | it's so trivial to DDOS the BZFlag port |
| 00:59.43 | JeffM | the maps and textures also don't change very often |
| 00:59.54 | JeffM | it's trivial to DDOS any port |
| 01:00.06 | JeffM | you can't change the nature of the internet ;) |
| 01:00.07 | G4JC | some more than others, e.g. other games don't expose this information so readily |
| 01:00.08 | TimRiker | we're talked about adding player-to-player messaging. things like friends lists. ie: what server they are on, etc. |
| 01:00.18 | TimRiker | s/we're/we've/ |
| 01:00.25 | G4JC | GUI enhancements are good for usabilty |
| 01:00.27 | JeffM | wireshark will always show the port |
| 01:00.37 | G4JC | yes but how many kids know how to use it |
| 01:00.41 | JeffM | and the server owner can set the port |
| 01:00.47 | JeffM | so I don't see your point |
| 01:00.58 | G4JC | back when I had dial-up some years ago |
| 01:01.01 | JeffM | most services are on well known ports |
| 01:01.13 | G4JC | some guys malicious server ddos'ed my internet connection like crazy |
| 01:01.19 | G4JC | it was rather awkward :) |
| 01:01.29 | JeffM | so you mean a guy with an ISDN line flooded you out? |
| 01:01.34 | G4JC | yes |
| 01:01.34 | TimRiker | lol |
| 01:01.48 | JeffM | yeah..... not really relivant here |
| 01:02.02 | JeffM | anyone who hosts anything has to be aware of what ports they open |
| 01:02.04 | G4JC | well proxy server may help, but now that's perhaps more load |
| 01:02.06 | JeffM | that's the nature of IT |
| 01:02.13 | G4JC | e.g. protect users from others |
| 01:02.16 | JeffM | that just moves the port |
| 01:02.20 | G4JC | by not exposing their IP and going through a relay |
| 01:02.28 | JeffM | we don't expose a player's IP |
| 01:02.33 | JeffM | only the server's IP |
| 01:02.40 | JeffM | that's the nature of hosting |
| 01:02.49 | TimRiker | well, nice chat. I gotta head. interested to see that unity-bzflag :P |
| 01:03.14 | JeffM | TimRiker, sure I can build it for your phone |
| 01:03.18 | G4JC | TimRiker: ok. Just don't let the project die. Kickstarter is an option down the road... remember... hats! :D |
| 01:03.22 | TimRiker | we used to expose the ip, but not anymore. good change. :) |
| 01:03.26 | G4JC | I could use a hat... |
| 01:03.32 | G4JC | lol :) |
| 01:03.50 | G4JC | BZFlag Zazzle shop can make one... |
| 01:03.55 | G4JC | and mugs and mousepads... |
| 01:03.58 | JeffM | maybe I should make it be an AR app and get "Gears" from different places around town |
| 01:04.05 | TimRiker | heh. steam version would be interesting if someone can come up with a financial model for that. |
| 01:04.18 | G4JC | Steam is totally proprietary though :P |
| 01:04.18 | JeffM | G4JC, the hats are virtual hats |
| 01:04.26 | JeffM | hats for your tanks |
| 01:04.34 | JeffM | G4JC, not totaly, but some aspects yeah |
| 01:04.46 | G4JC | virtual and physical hats would be nice. |
| 01:04.47 | JeffM | TimRiker, it'd be dooable if greenlight would accept it |
| 01:04.56 | JeffM | we had physical hats, I sold them all |
| 01:05.03 | G4JC | aww :| |
| 01:05.05 | TimRiker | already plays Ingress where we drive around and virtually blow things up |
| 01:05.14 | JeffM | so my G+ page says ;) |
| 01:05.31 | TimRiker | indeed. go Green. We are Enlightened |
| 01:05.51 | JeffM | my phone does not support silly things like that |
| 01:06.09 | TimRiker | I don't know when the j2me version will come out. lol |
| 01:06.16 | JeffM | that would not even help me |
| 01:06.21 | TimRiker | hehe |
| 01:06.21 | JeffM | WP 7.5 |
| 01:06.36 | G4JC | JeffM: Time to upgrade :) |
| 01:06.41 | TimRiker | hope at least you got a nice camera |
| 01:06.46 | JeffM | nope, not till may |
| 01:06.50 | JeffM | yeah the camera is nice |
| 01:06.51 | G4JC | Android better |
| 01:07.09 | JeffM | I don't mind the OS, it's just old and can't get 8 |
| 01:07.14 | TimRiker | Ingress is android only still. iOS version promised Real Soon Now |
| 01:07.28 | JeffM | if only it had tanks |
| 01:07.33 | G4JC | iOS (used by zombies according to NSA themselves) |
| 01:07.34 | G4JC | :) |
| 01:08.02 | TimRiker | it's got bursters, shields, force amps, and even, get this, turrets. |
| 01:08.29 | JeffM | many things we do not |
| 01:08.30 | TimRiker | alas, no guided missles or lasers |
| 01:08.48 | G4JC | TimRiker: you inspired me saying turrets... get this... Portal Mode! Tanks shoot portals to solves puzzles... no copyright infringement from Valve intended for the idea |
| 01:08.49 | G4JC | xD |
| 01:09.05 | TimRiker | heh |
| 01:09.22 | TimRiker | k. really gotta run. have fun all! |
| 01:09.31 | G4JC | well at least he's alive :D |
| 01:09.44 | JeffM | oh we've known he's been alive |
| 01:09.49 | JeffM | he does a lot of work for other projects |
| 01:09.54 | JeffM | and plays ingress |
| 01:09.57 | G4JC | heh |
| 01:10.16 | G4JC | so then if there's no intention of kickstarted |
| 01:10.21 | G4JC | *kickstarter |
| 01:10.29 | G4JC | I guess bounty will have to do :| |
| 01:10.37 | G4JC | crucial bugs should be fixed first |
| 01:10.39 | G4JC | features later. |
| 01:12.51 | G4JC | JeffM: So what work is underway currently? How can you improve networking? :) |
| 01:16.17 | JeffM | nothing really |
| 01:16.36 | JeffM | we are slowly moving the code to github and a few people are trying some small stuff |
| 01:16.41 | JeffM | but there isn't any major development |
| 01:16.51 | G4JC | I love git :D |
| 01:16.56 | JeffM | networking can be improved by redoing our simulation system |
| 01:17.27 | G4JC | also what about collision data? |
| 01:17.34 | JeffM | that's part of simulation |
| 01:17.44 | G4JC | ok |
| 01:17.47 | G4JC | is code well commented? |
| 01:17.50 | JeffM | you need a good simulation system before you can sync it over a network |
| 01:17.52 | G4JC | that always helps figure stuff out. |
| 01:17.53 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 01:18.34 | G4JC | meh. :| |
| 01:19.06 | G4JC | Is there a git already? |
| 01:19.17 | G4JC | prefer it over clunky svn checkouts. |
| 01:19.20 | blast007 | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-import-3 |
| 01:20.30 | JeffM | svn was fine, it's SF that's becoming the issue |
| 01:21.04 | G4JC | bundling spyware? I heard about that a month or so ago. |
| 01:21.13 | JeffM | adware mostly |
| 01:21.16 | JeffM | for some aps |
| 01:21.20 | G4JC | yeah |
| 01:21.24 | G4JC | but they pay the creator $$ for it |
| 01:21.28 | G4JC | unethically imo. |
| 01:21.37 | JeffM | it's perfectly ethical |
| 01:21.49 | JeffM | the author agreed to it |
| 01:21.57 | JeffM | it's stupid but ethical |
| 01:22.01 | G4JC | adware brings malware, I'd never support a project that does it |
| 01:22.16 | JeffM | sure |
| 01:22.35 | JeffM | so we moved the code to github |
| 01:22.38 | JeffM | have to move the bugs too |
| 01:22.41 | JeffM | someday |
| 01:23.10 | blast007 | once we have a final repo |
| 01:23.11 | G4JC | that appears to be just a git that pulls from SVN |
| 01:23.19 | G4JC | so it's not all the sourcecode on the git |
| 01:23.28 | JeffM | yeah we are splitting it up |
| 01:23.33 | blast007 | G4JC: well where else would we pull it from? |
| 01:23.41 | JeffM | workbench and other side projects will go into other repositories |
| 01:23.44 | G4JC | blast007: download the entire trunk and put it on the git? :) |
| 01:23.56 | G4JC | ah that's a good idea. |
| 01:23.56 | JeffM | that's what import 1 was |
| 01:23.57 | blast007 | trunk is just a single revision... |
| 01:24.07 | JeffM | we are trying to maintain the branches |
| 01:24.13 | blast007 | and history |
| 01:24.16 | JeffM | for each repository so we keep history |
| 01:24.17 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:24.21 | G4JC | gotcha. |
| 01:24.22 | JeffM | history is important |
| 01:24.46 | blast007 | we're still probably doomed to repeat it though ;) |
| 01:24.52 | JeffM | indeed |
| 01:27.24 | G4JC | Fixing the BZWTools might help too |
| 01:27.26 | G4JC | broke in latest Blender. |
| 01:27.38 | G4JC | and the download link was a challenge to find |
| 01:27.39 | JeffM | we did not write that |
| 01:27.42 | blast007 | that's not our project |
| 01:27.43 | G4JC | dead links on wiki |
| 01:27.47 | G4JC | ok |
| 01:27.49 | JeffM | we have bzworkbench, our own editor |
| 01:27.57 | blast007 | not our website that is down |
| 01:28.04 | G4JC | can it import stuff from Blender? |
| 01:28.06 | blast007 | I did mirror the files though |
| 01:28.17 | JeffM | it can read mesh files in OBJ IIRC |
| 01:28.26 | JeffM | blender is a modeler, a map is not a single model |
| 01:28.35 | G4JC | right |
| 01:28.43 | Delusional | we have the wings3d exporter too. |
| 01:28.52 | G4JC | but it doesn't allow easy setting of spawn point and so forth? |
| 01:28.53 | JeffM | yeah it's a decent modeler too |
| 01:28.58 | JeffM | except for it's UVs |
| 01:28.59 | G4JC | BZWTools used to as I recall |
| 01:29.16 | JeffM | bzwtools had a bunch of odd extensions to try and fake it |
| 01:29.44 | Delusional | blender has too steep a learning curve for most BZ mappers |
| 01:29.51 | JeffM | indeed |
| 01:32.22 | G4JC | But it's more advanced for future stock maps... speaking of which |
| 01:32.29 | G4JC | it would be nice to have some offline modes |
| 01:32.33 | G4JC | simple do nothing stuff |
| 01:32.36 | G4JC | like find the flags |
| 01:32.37 | G4JC | :) |
| 01:32.41 | JeffM | lots of thigns would be nice |
| 01:33.03 | G4JC | well, there's years of pondering but no action. Time to fork :) |
| 01:33.12 | JeffM | that was pondered as well |
| 01:33.19 | JeffM | and failed to gain traction |
| 01:34.02 | G4JC | as I recall wasn't there even some basic AI bots programmed for it? |
| 01:34.15 | G4JC | a few years since I checked out the tree |
| 01:34.22 | G4JC | but I seem to remember partial code being in there already. |
| 01:34.23 | JeffM | bzrobots is one of the branches |
| 01:34.39 | JeffM | there are solo bots and autopilot in the shiping game now |
| 01:34.51 | JeffM | bzrobots was made to support the robocode API |
| 01:34.53 | G4JC | nice. Won't take much to take those offline then |
| 01:34.58 | G4JC | bot mode |
| 01:35.10 | JeffM | you still need a server |
| 01:35.13 | JeffM | it'd just be a local one |
| 01:35.14 | G4JC | localhost |
| 01:35.24 | JeffM | and the solo bots are SUPER stupid |
| 01:35.35 | JeffM | you'd want to use server side bots but those need more work |
| 01:37.10 | G4JC | brb rebooting PC and gonna try that git. |
| 01:37.11 | G4JC | :) |
| 01:38.06 | JeffM | wow i's been a year allready.... |
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| 03:20.18 | Gaming4JC | blast007: Just curious why is everyone working in 2.4xx branch still when 2.6xx and 2.99 are already done? Are they broken or something... |
| 03:20.41 | blast007 | 2.6 doesn't exist |
| 03:20.48 | blast007 | it's 2.5 development code |
| 03:20.57 | Gaming4JC | ok |
| 03:21.24 | blast007 | and 2.99.x was abandoned due to feature creep (though more like feature explosion) and complicated bugs |
| 03:21.40 | blast007 | too much changed in 2.99.x to easily find the source of the problems |
| 03:21.47 | Gaming4JC | ah :( |
| 03:22.29 | blast007 | 2.4 was created by going back to 2.0.x and then backporting selected low-risk features from 2.99.x and improving upon some of the new 2.99.x features in a better designed way |
| 03:23.29 | Gaming4JC | the website re-deisgn looks nice since I've seen it last. |
| 03:23.42 | Gaming4JC | (main page) |
| 03:23.43 | blast007 | so basically we'll just slowly canabilize the 2.99.x features into our mainline code |
| 03:24.07 | blast007 | yeah, redesigned that a year or so ago |
| 03:37.21 | JeffM | 2.4.x is the shiping version |
| 03:38.22 | Gaming4JC | JeffM: So I should be working in 2.6x for the new release? |
| 03:38.41 | JeffM | depends on your goals |
| 03:38.52 | JeffM | if you want to make change that can be used right now it should be done in 2.4.x |
| 03:39.06 | JeffM | if the change is breaking then it goes into 2.6 |
| 03:39.25 | JeffM | changes to 2.4.x must be compatable with all other 2.4.x clients |
| 03:39.38 | Gaming4JC | well. I'm not very good with C++ but I can probably help comment some code |
| 03:40.01 | Gaming4JC | and make resources |
| 03:40.26 | Gaming4JC | ah |
| 03:41.43 | JeffM | what do you mean by "resources" ? |
| 03:42.01 | Gaming4JC | images, textures, icons, sounds, etc. |
| 03:42.15 | Gaming4JC | looks like you're in fair shape there though. |
| 03:42.54 | JeffM | any of those would probalby have to go in the breaking release as we could not get them into old versions of 2.4.x |
| 03:43.35 | JeffM | but really most of those are not shiped with the game since it can download things like that with the map |
| 03:43.53 | Gaming4JC | yeah. |
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| 06:50.40 | gransRemedy | howdy |
| 06:50.57 | gransRemedy | can anyone help with bz network protocol? |
| 06:52.57 | JeffM | in what regards? |
| 06:54.05 | gransRemedy | trying to follow wiki, around connecting to a server and getting player list |
| 06:54.41 | gransRemedy | I can connect, and get back the bzfs version, but am not sure how to get playerlist |
| 06:54.44 | JeffM | there should be scripts that show how to do that in /msc |
| 06:55.05 | gransRemedy | yea, I looked at the bzquery (php) script |
| 06:55.35 | JeffM | it's there in several languages |
| 06:55.37 | gransRemedy | this is the bit I'm stuck on: $request = pack("n2", 0, 0x7167); |
| 06:55.46 | JeffM | that's the message |
| 06:55.51 | JeffM | what language are you using? |
| 06:56.06 | gransRemedy | what is this number - 0x7167 and where to I get info on it |
| 06:56.19 | gransRemedy | c# on win 7 |
| 06:56.43 | JeffM | IIRC that's the message code |
| 06:56.53 | JeffM | every message is defined by 2 bytes |
| 06:57.44 | gransRemedy | is there a list of these messages and their codes somewhere? |
| 06:58.00 | JeffM | yeah in the source code |
| 06:58.16 | JeffM | Protocol.h |
| 06:58.27 | JeffM | are you tryng to do poll stats? |
| 06:59.01 | gransRemedy | just trying to build a little gui to help me look at my servers |
| 06:59.16 | gransRemedy | and connect/chat if I need to |
| 06:59.24 | JeffM | I wrote a lib once in c# that conencted to a server and got the player list |
| 06:59.27 | JeffM | chat is harder |
| 06:59.36 | JeffM | you have to do a full login for chat |
| 06:59.43 | JeffM | simpler to do that part with a plugin |
| 07:00.34 | gransRemedy | yea - that is further down on my list of things to do :) |
| 07:00.39 | JeffM | https://sourceforge.net/p/bzflag/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/tools/BZStatCollector/ |
| 07:00.50 | JeffM | that does a basic conection and player list in C# |
| 07:01.27 | JeffM | and here is your constant, const uint16_tMsgQueryGame = 0x7167; |
| 07:01.41 | JeffM | you probalby want const uint16_tMsgQueryPlayers = 0x7170; |
| 07:02.12 | JeffM | those 2 can be called with just a basic conect |
| 07:02.26 | JeffM | anything else requires you to do a full join and login as an observer |
| 07:03.01 | gransRemedy | Thats a good start, thanks very much |
| 07:03.06 | JeffM | sure |
| 07:03.17 | JeffM | but really server management is best handled via plugins |
| 07:03.18 | gransRemedy | I'll go and check out your statcollector |
| 07:03.31 | JeffM | make your servers run plugins that connect to your GUI |
| 07:03.40 | JeffM | then you don't show up in the payer list |
| 07:04.31 | gransRemedy | Yep I understand - if this goes well I'll look to do that next |
| 07:04.43 | gransRemedy | thanks. |
| 07:04.56 | JeffM | well you won't need that stuff if you go plugin :) |
| 07:05.14 | JeffM | but that stuff should work fine for 2.4.x servers, we were ussing it for a bit to get stats |
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| 23:11.57 | blast007 | JeffM: it'll be interesting when/if ShadowPlay supports more than just DX9+ |
| 23:12.13 | JeffM | ahh it dosn't do GL? |
| 23:12.20 | blast007 | (or if Fraps implements the new capture method of the nVidia drivers) |
| 23:12.22 | blast007 | yeah.. |
| 23:12.38 | JeffM | that does lower it's usefulnes |
| 23:12.51 | JeffM | it captures stuff smooth as hell |
| 23:12.54 | blast007 | I'm sure they'll add it later |
| 23:12.57 | JeffM | probalby |
| 23:13.36 | blast007 | fraps performance seems to be limited by how fast it can shove the data to the disk.. slow disk equates to lowered FPS when capturing |
| 23:13.52 | blast007 | and it write a helluva lot of data |
| 23:14.16 | JeffM | yeah, shadow play uses the dedicated hardware on newer nvidia cards to compress it in real time |
| 23:14.33 | JeffM | it's the hardware they use to stream stuff to the nvidia shield |
| 23:14.42 | JeffM | it just streams it to buffers |
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| 23:56.40 | Not-002 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/Er8obw |
| 23:56.41 | Not-002 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo 03d43e74d - Silly me, variables can't be initialized inside the class |
| 23:57.49 | allejo | I've got to stop breaking the build... |
| 23:58.01 | JeffM | do you compile before you commit? |