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| 02:20.59 | spldart | so bad |
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| 05:13.29 | quantumf_ | issues? |
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| 05:37.19 | quantumf_ | is the list server down? |
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| 11:39.58 | alcatraz | hello |
| 11:45.34 | alezakos | hi al |
| 11:45.39 | brad | hi alca |
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| 16:45.55 | mtnbkr | hi everyone |
| 16:47.14 | mtnbkr | is there a way to add or remove objects on-the-fly vi bzadmin? for example, have an include line in the config that pulls in a specific flag at a specifc location and then comment it out in th econfig and issue /reload in bzadmin? or is this entirely not plausable |
| 16:48.53 | blast007 | if you're just talking about flags, a plugin might be able to fake that by moving certain flags to a inaccessable location |
| 16:50.06 | mtnbkr | just wondering if I can change things without killing bzfs and restarting with newly edited configs and completely interrupting an ongoing game |
| 16:50.27 | blast007 | nope |
| 16:50.35 | mtnbkr | I mean, I can see tha an admin can give or take flags from players... |
| 16:50.44 | mtnbkr | yeah, Ok, that is what I thought. |
| 16:50.55 | mtnbkr | not a big deal, just curious |
| 16:50.56 | blast007 | there is /reload, but that only works for things like bans and groups |
| 16:51.08 | mtnbkr | yeah, I see that |
| 16:51.11 | blast007 | config is only read at startup |
| 16:51.43 | mtnbkr | is there a definitive manual for all the avail bzadmin commands? man bzadmin on linux comes up a bt short n that department |
| 16:53.26 | blast007 | bzadmin doesn't have "commands". it's all bzfs commands. bzadmin is just a crappy text-only game client that will be going away in the next major release. |
| 17:07.32 | alezakos | man bzfs and the wiki page (http://wiki.bzflag.org/Slash_Commands) should have most of the commands you can run |
| 17:11.54 | mtnbkr | blast007: re: bzadmin not having command... yeah, sorry, misspoke |
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| 17:13.36 | mtnbkr | alezakos: yeah, thanks... the Slash_Commands page is what I was looking for. |
| 17:13.53 | mtnbkr | blast007: what will bzadmin be replaced by? |
| 17:17.08 | Patlabor221 | 2 cans and a string |
| 17:17.42 | blast007 | mtnbkr: and web interface of some sort |
| 17:17.48 | blast007 | a* |
| 17:17.50 | mtnbkr | Patlabor221: lol |
| 17:19.23 | Patlabor221 | there is no reason to do admin stuff over game protocol, the serve can ether accept HTTP directly or connect to a web server over json |
| 17:21.41 | Patlabor221 | bzadmin was one of the "because I can" features, not "beacuse I should" |
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| 19:12.48 | zuii | is it happening again? |
| 19:13.13 | zuii | :( |
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| 19:15.38 | kierra | the asshat strikes again |
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| 19:20.15 | zuii | how is he attacking? syn flood? firewall rules are not helping? im just wondering others what do in these type of situation |
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| 19:22.41 | Patlabor221 | they block it at the fireall level |
| 19:22.59 | Patlabor221 | and they have paid IT departments :) |
| 19:23.06 | Patlabor221 | or use steam |
| 19:23.55 | Patlabor221 | and it's prety standard DDOS tactics, use other machines to send trafic |
| 19:31.53 | zuii | if i want to use 3rd party libraries in bzflag, which licences are "accepted" by the project? e.g boost::aiso |
| 19:33.04 | Patlabor221 | we won't accept boost |
| 19:33.11 | Patlabor221 | it's too big |
| 19:33.16 | Patlabor221 | but generaly an open source compatable license |
| 19:33.25 | Patlabor221 | what did you want to get from boost? |
| 19:33.47 | zuii | aiso network library, but there are some lightweight network library |
| 19:33.56 | zuii | also in c++ |
| 19:34.19 | Patlabor221 | my plan is to use raknet |
| 19:34.24 | Patlabor221 | for networking |
| 19:35.09 | zuii | i have no experience with that but looking at http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/, seems good |
| 19:35.10 | Patlabor221 | it is specificly designed for this type of gaming |
| 19:35.24 | Patlabor221 | raknet is used by many systms |
| 19:35.49 | Patlabor221 | and it's pure UDP, no TCP/UDP mixing |
| 19:39.45 | zuii | and the graphics? if i create new clickable and sortable with filter server list ui with pure opengl than after bzflag 3.0 somebody gonna chose ogre for graph engine all the work will be my fun but waste of effort |
| 19:40.01 | Patlabor221 | possibly |
| 19:40.16 | Patlabor221 | that is the nature of working on open sources projects |
| 19:40.18 | zuii | i would do it if ill have freetime... |
| 19:40.37 | Patlabor221 | adding click support to our GUI system would affect more then the serverist |
| 19:40.51 | Patlabor221 | there was an SOC project for it, you may want to look at that codebase |
| 19:41.12 | zuii | you didnt merge it? |
| 19:41.27 | Patlabor221 | it was not complete or stable enough |
| 19:41.36 | Patlabor221 | IIRC |
| 19:41.51 | Patlabor221 | none of the SOC projects were 100% complete |
| 19:43.30 | zuii | okay i will google it. i know someone already (maybe trepan) has started to use crystalspace engine... ? can we go that way? |
| 19:44.07 | Patlabor221 | it was atupone, and no, that engine would not be one that I'd want to use |
| 19:44.27 | Patlabor221 | so you just want to bust it out, no design work, or anything? |
| 19:46.27 | zuii | no i would not just bust it out.. |
| 19:46.53 | Patlabor221 | good :) |
| 19:48.24 | Patlabor221 | it may be best to start by identfiying what features bzflag would need in an engine |
| 19:48.30 | Patlabor221 | then see what engines fit those requirements |
| 19:50.38 | zuii | yes. i just dont really get, why you want to create better ui in pure opengl, and recreate the same with a framework |
| 19:50.59 | zuii | experiment yes |
| 19:51.16 | Patlabor221 | several reasons |
| 19:51.24 | Patlabor221 | 1) a full engine replacement is a HUGE project |
| 19:51.28 | Patlabor221 | and will probalby take years |
| 19:51.40 | Patlabor221 | 2) extending our current system will take less time |
| 19:51.50 | Patlabor221 | 3) differnet people contribute to the lists and they don't always mesh up |
| 19:52.13 | Patlabor221 | so those lists are structure usualy in "easy first" |
| 19:52.21 | Patlabor221 | if someone does one of the hard thins first, then sure it replaces the easy stuff |
| 19:52.40 | Patlabor221 | those lists are not the word of the gods, it is just sugestions |
| 19:52.59 | Patlabor221 | to redo bzflag in Ogre is to pretty much rewrite the entire game |
| 19:53.10 | Patlabor221 | you do that and most of the stuff on that list goes away |
| 20:32.16 | thrakt | Patlabor221 you still fielding general questions? |
| 20:33.23 | thrakt | AM trying to find some files listed on the wiki and seems the link is dead |
| 20:36.14 | thrakt | https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag/trunk/db/ <=== Dead link |
| 20:52.27 | brad | ~bzgit |
| 20:52.27 | infobot | [bzgit] git clone --branch v2_4_x https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-import-3.git bzflag |
| 20:52.50 | Patlabor221 | brad, not evething was moved over |
| 20:52.57 | Patlabor221 | that's the old list server |
| 20:53.18 | Patlabor221 | thrakt, what exactly are you looking for? |
| 20:53.26 | Patlabor221 | our web services? |
| 20:54.35 | thrakt | No want to set up private list server |
| 20:55.01 | Patlabor221 | you have an install of phpbb? |
| 20:55.34 | thrakt | Not live yet |
| 20:55.44 | thrakt | AM reading http://wiki.bzflag.org/Private_List_Server |
| 20:55.48 | Patlabor221 | well 2 versions of the list server are here, https://sourceforge.net/p/bzflag/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/web/ |
| 20:56.16 | Patlabor221 | yeah that's super old and probalby doesn't work anymore |
| 20:57.06 | Patlabor221 | if you do, please do not advertise the list server here or on public services. I don't want people to be confused |
| 20:57.14 | thrakt | Understood |
| 20:57.34 | Patlabor221 | at it's core the list server is a simple php page |
| 20:57.51 | Patlabor221 | it just happens to get it's users from phpbb |
| 20:57.57 | Patlabor221 | it could get it's users from any database |
| 20:58.08 | thrakt | That's what I wanted to explore |
| 20:58.26 | Patlabor221 | if you are looking to make it distributed the users arn't the problem |
| 20:58.29 | thrakt | Thought I would start with what is currently used |
| 20:58.29 | Patlabor221 | it's the tokens |
| 20:58.45 | Patlabor221 | you need a way to sync tokens over all the auth nodes |
| 20:58.56 | Patlabor221 | since the user may not have used the same auth node the server is using |
| 20:59.32 | thrakt | You read me clearly (: |
| 20:59.51 | thrakt | Based on our last chat on this thought I would poke around some |
| 20:59.52 | Patlabor221 | so that means you have to cluster it over systems you control |
| 21:00.05 | Patlabor221 | that's simple MYSQL clustering |
| 21:00.56 | Patlabor221 | the problem is you arn't going to get 100 auth nodes, you are going to get 2-4 |
| 21:01.07 | Patlabor221 | and those can be DDOSed just as easy as 1 |
| 21:01.33 | Patlabor221 | any other form if distribution will send the auth database to too many places and make it very hard to keep in sync |
| 21:01.43 | Patlabor221 | or be a security risk |
| 21:02.15 | thrakt | Am going to start with a single, fortified host |
| 21:02.24 | thrakt | Current DDOS is at ~400Mbps |
| 21:02.24 | Patlabor221 | what do you mean by "fortified" ? |
| 21:02.28 | thrakt | DDOS protection |
| 21:02.38 | Patlabor221 | why not work to do that on our current host? |
| 21:02.50 | thrakt | Have had some positive results |
| 21:03.14 | thrakt | Want to experiment with affordable resultts from paid service |
| 21:03.26 | thrakt | Edit fail |
| 21:03.36 | thrakt | Basically affordable host that provides DDOS protection |
| 21:03.39 | Patlabor221 | you want to wrap it in cloudfair :) |
| 21:03.46 | thrakt | Not necessarily |
| 21:03.54 | thrakt | I do see the wisdom in keeping it local |
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| 21:04.27 | thrakt | Decreases attack surface (sorta) |
| 21:04.30 | Patlabor221 | the hit from the client to list, and game server to list must always be on services we have full controll over, just so you know |
| 21:04.59 | brad | why jeff? |
| 21:04.59 | Patlabor221 | those 2 communication channels can not go though a third party proxy or anything |
| 21:05.05 | brad | you'll never have full control |
| 21:05.12 | Patlabor221 | brad, becase your password is paintext ;) |
| 21:05.19 | brad | so? |
| 21:05.21 | Patlabor221 | brad, in know, and I don't want to give up any more |
| 21:05.26 | brad | you already send it over the internet in plain text |
| 21:05.27 | Patlabor221 | it's a choice we are making |
| 21:05.44 | DTRemenak | It's totally possible to run an alternate list server...you just need to supply your own user database |
| 21:05.46 | Patlabor221 | we WANT to make it HTTPS, an even then cloudflair can decrypt it |
| 21:06.07 | thrakt | DTRemenak: my thinking... for when main server is down |
| 21:06.23 | gnu-sense | "paintext" -- I think that's why I forget them |
| 21:06.24 | Patlabor221 | brad, I undertan that the real world probablioty of a breech from there is very low, but we don't want to give us MORE holes |
| 21:06.27 | Patlabor221 | we want less holes :) |
| 21:06.37 | DTRemenak | please encourage people to avoid using the same password for both...other than that, go to town :) |
| 21:06.50 | thrakt | Patlabor221: I understand the decreased attack surface. |
| 21:06.52 | Patlabor221 | thrakt, just so you know users will have to modify client and server settings to use a different list server |
| 21:07.09 | Patlabor221 | list servers are not automaticly picked up by clients |
| 21:07.12 | thrakt | Well if I get that far, making that HOWTO will be easy |
| 21:07.28 | Patlabor221 | and once you go to one list server, you don't get ANY Access to the old one |
| 21:07.31 | Patlabor221 | no groups, etc... |
| 21:07.41 | thrakt | New groups, etc |
| 21:08.26 | thrakt | At least that's how it seems from this side of it... we would need groups for administering etc |
| 21:08.43 | DTRemenak | exactly. services are all tied together...you can run an entire services network, or any pieces that you want, but you can't mix parts of yours with parts of the bzflag.org services. |
| 21:08.44 | Patlabor221 | every server onwer that swaped over would have to redo pretty much everhthing |
| 21:09.02 | Patlabor221 | and you'd have to provide an interface to do that |
| 21:09.15 | thrakt | That's a way down the line... |
| 21:09.25 | brad | couldn't you just do it without any user auth? |
| 21:09.26 | Patlabor221 | thats why I don't want users thinking yours is official and they need to know what they are givingup |
| 21:09.29 | brad | just list servers |
| 21:09.38 | Patlabor221 | sure, just comment out the auth part |
| 21:09.46 | Patlabor221 | everyone would effecitvly have an invalid token |
| 21:09.52 | brad | would be considerably easier if it's just a temporary hting |
| 21:09.53 | Patlabor221 | return "I am a fish" for the token ;) |
| 21:10.29 | Patlabor221 | brad, but then how is that any different then telling people the IP addresses of servers? |
| 21:10.43 | brad | fair point |
| 21:10.43 | blast007 | thrakt: you can't decrease the attack surface in this case ;) |
| 21:10.58 | blast007 | the attack surface is "the server" |
| 21:11.57 | thrakt | ANd the authentication process |
| 21:12.20 | thrakt | not just bzfs instance(s) |
| 21:12.55 | Patlabor221 | bzfs is not part of this attack |
| 21:13.03 | Patlabor221 | it's an attack aginst the list server |
| 21:13.15 | Patlabor221 | the bzfs attacks are seperate atacks |
| 21:13.22 | gnu-sense | in other words, the fact that the list server is going up and down like a yo-yo is an impediment to server owners whose resources are otherwise functioning. and they might like to do somehting about it |
| 21:13.35 | thrakt | Yes gnu |
| 21:14.10 | Patlabor221 | thats like saying that web servers want to fix google going down!?!?! |
| 21:14.17 | thrakt | Not really |
| 21:14.29 | Patlabor221 | you don't have to require auth on the server |
| 21:14.36 | Patlabor221 | and if the user knows the IP, they can play |
| 21:14.53 | thrakt | That is one way to do it yes |
| 21:14.54 | gnu-sense | you want to be able to auth server admins |
| 21:15.10 | Patlabor221 | if you split auth from list, the dude is just going to attack both hosts |
| 21:15.16 | DTRemenak | if only servers had some sort of local authentication system ;) |
| 21:15.18 | Patlabor221 | since they both have to be public |
| 21:15.19 | thrakt | gnu-sense: yes I would |
| 21:15.41 | blast007 | ~lart DTRemenak |
| 21:15.41 | infobot | drops a truckload of VAXen on DTRemenak |
| 21:15.42 | blast007 | ;) |
| 21:15.46 | Patlabor221 | and to properly split them you'll need client mods |
| 21:16.01 | Patlabor221 | I agree combining them was a STUPID idea in the first place |
| 21:16.09 | Patlabor221 | but thats just what tim did |
| 21:16.15 | blast007 | it was the easy way |
| 21:16.18 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 21:16.22 | blast007 | not the good way ;) |
| 21:16.33 | Patlabor221 | and if we want to continue with adverise support, there does need to be some level of auth at the list level |
| 21:16.52 | Patlabor221 | if you want to drop advertise support, then it'd be very easy to split the systems |
| 21:17.05 | gnu-sense | maybe... a list-server list? |
| 21:17.11 | Patlabor221 | no |
| 21:17.21 | Patlabor221 | why make it overly complicated? |
| 21:17.27 | blast007 | 1.7 used to have some screwy thing like that, iirc... |
| 21:17.29 | Patlabor221 | and the guy would just attack that ;) |
| 21:17.40 | gnu-sense | the question answers itself. of course it's "no" |
| 21:18.49 | gnu-sense | but I think the larger issue is, with the different resources for running this game coming from different people, is there a way to make this aspect of it more distributed. |
| 21:19.02 | Patlabor221 | not if we want to keep it secure |
| 21:19.11 | blast007 | basically the way to fix this is to force the attacker to spread his resources too thin to cause anything to go down |
| 21:19.17 | Patlabor221 | we ain't giving the auth database out to any kind of distributed network |
| 21:19.29 | Patlabor221 | bittorent is not a solution to all problems ;) |
| 21:19.50 | Patlabor221 | yeah and to do that we need a large network that we directly control |
| 21:20.16 | Patlabor221 | the userdb and authentication system must remain in a known channel |
| 21:20.40 | Patlabor221 | gnu-sense, if you want to donate 5 servers to me and let me wipe and re-root them that'd be acceptable |
| 21:20.46 | DTRemenak | or make it easy to accept third-party authentication. let players register with whichever auth services THEY trust and use whichever ones are available at the time. |
| 21:20.56 | zuii | what if we use openid or some open auth system? |
| 21:21.02 | Patlabor221 | that is an option, a different option :) |
| 21:21.12 | Patlabor221 | zuii, sure in another version |
| 21:21.17 | Patlabor221 | please research it |
| 21:21.26 | thrakt | DTRemenak: I agree and that would seem to mesh with some of the remarks I have read here in the past: make the users responsible for *some* of their data |
| 21:21.36 | gnu-sense | Patlabor, I would discuss that with you, but not here. I'd need to know exactly what you need. |
| 21:22.00 | Patlabor221 | gnu-sense, as many servers that we have direct and unique access to with nothing else on them |
| 21:22.03 | Patlabor221 | then we can cluster hem |
| 21:22.15 | Patlabor221 | systems you have no controll over |
| 21:22.26 | Patlabor221 | it's like donating a host to the freenode network |
| 21:22.32 | gnu-sense | understood. I'm not joking either. |
| 21:22.51 | Patlabor221 | they would probely need to be more then cheap little VPSs |
| 21:22.57 | Patlabor221 | those are too easy to take out |
| 21:23.14 | Patlabor221 | I'd also want a guarntee of at least a year of service |
| 21:23.20 | Patlabor221 | maybe 2 |
| 21:23.33 | Patlabor221 | otherwise I can buy a bunch of cheap VPSs ;) |
| 21:23.53 | gnu-sense | this is what I would want to know. It's also starting to get expensive. But I am still serious. |
| 21:24.09 | Patlabor221 | personaly If I were you, I'd not waste the money on it |
| 21:24.21 | Patlabor221 | ther just arn't that many people effected |
| 21:24.41 | Patlabor221 | research into open auth for next version would be time/money better spent IMHO |
| 21:25.12 | Patlabor221 | but that reseach is much more then just getting an authentication |
| 21:25.25 | Patlabor221 | it's ensuring we can provide ALL the services we provide now |
| 21:25.29 | Patlabor221 | like groups and advertise |
| 21:26.05 | blast007 | I don't really see much of an advantage to OpenID for us |
| 21:26.29 | Patlabor221 | I dont know enough about it to know if it wold or not, that's wy I'm willing to entetain reseach ideas |
| 21:26.37 | DTRemenak | not all groups need to be local, and third-party auth is really no different for advertise |
| 21:26.40 | Patlabor221 | that would be the outcome of the research |
| 21:26.46 | DTRemenak | s/local/global/ |
| 21:27.04 | Patlabor221 | DTRemenak, sure but it means that list and auth still need some link |
| 21:27.20 | DTRemenak | it just means that the list has to be able to VALIDATE auth...exactly like the server does |
| 21:27.31 | Patlabor221 | if list and auth can be completely seperated list can be moved to a content CDN with out much issue |
| 21:27.46 | Patlabor221 | well something has to validate auth |
| 21:28.11 | Patlabor221 | and if we want to return different lists for different people then the lsit has to be one of those things can can validate a person |
| 21:28.35 | Patlabor221 | if we no longer need to return different lists for different people, then there is a lot of simplification that can happen in the list |
| 21:28.45 | Patlabor221 | I think advetise is useful |
| 21:28.52 | DTRemenak | validation doesn't need to happen locally on the list server |
| 21:28.58 | Patlabor221 | no it doesn't |
| 21:29.03 | DTRemenak | just like it doesn't happen locally on the game servers |
| 21:29.12 | Patlabor221 | yeah it could just be another auth client |
| 21:29.22 | DTRemenak | they're tied together out of convenience right now, not necessity |
| 21:29.42 | Patlabor221 | well I'd say lazyness :) |
| 21:29.51 | Patlabor221 | the ultimate convience |
| 21:29.53 | DTRemenak | that's fair :) |
| 21:30.07 | blast007 | held together with paperclips and chewing gum |
| 21:30.21 | Patlabor221 | there was a lot of talk before about caching systems, my point is with advertise in the mix those caching systems are harder to do |
| 21:30.39 | Patlabor221 | a list can't be arbitrarcly cached for some time |
| 21:30.45 | Patlabor221 | since it may be unique for a user |
| 21:30.50 | DTRemenak | caching is not a very good solution |
| 21:30.56 | Patlabor221 | no it is not |
| 21:31.05 | Patlabor221 | but it is a convienent one that exists now |
| 21:31.15 | Patlabor221 | and some were proposing it |
| 21:31.36 | blast007 | caching where? |
| 21:31.57 | Patlabor221 | his DDOS "Fortified" stuff |
| 21:31.59 | blast007 | it's already a pretty minimal set of queries on the server to create it, and it could be improved further |
| 21:32.00 | Patlabor221 | aka cloudflair ;) |
| 21:32.10 | DTRemenak | the list being unavailable is barely even a problem. auth being unavailable is significantly more serious. |
| 21:32.18 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 21:32.34 | Patlabor221 | that was also the point I was trying to make brad when he sugeed an authless list |
| 21:32.42 | Patlabor221 | I HAte this keyboard |
| 21:32.46 | brad | why's it more serious to have auth? |
| 21:33.03 | Patlabor221 | because people can type in host names |
| 21:33.08 | Patlabor221 | people can't manualy auth |
| 21:33.10 | DTRemenak | and they have the last one saved in the client |
| 21:33.18 | Patlabor221 | yeah there is a cache on the client |
| 21:33.33 | blast007 | technically the client is *supposed* to show a list of cached servers if the list it down, but I think that is broken |
| 21:33.36 | DTRemenak | I suspect that the DDOS attacks are a being used as a screen to prevent administrative action on a server |
| 21:33.37 | Patlabor221 | the list of game servers doesn't change THAT often |
| 21:33.47 | brad | dont think the cache works at all |
| 21:33.51 | brad | never seen it working anyway |
| 21:33.51 | blast007 | (the default for the cache is Off / Backup) |
| 21:33.52 | DTRemenak | i.e. the attacks themselves are against AUTH, not against the list |
| 21:33.53 | Patlabor221 | then we should fix that |
| 21:34.07 | Patlabor221 | DTRemenak, the attacks are againts the machine |
| 21:34.15 | Patlabor221 | so he can brag on mofo |
| 21:34.31 | Patlabor221 | but yeah bust out a local auth plugin |
| 21:34.36 | Patlabor221 | you don't need a list server for auth |
| 21:34.41 | zuii | find servers menu item clears everything first then tries to get list |
| 21:34.59 | Patlabor221 | zuii, it's supposed to show a cache, we should fix it so it does |
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| 21:35.33 | Patlabor221 | if you guys want a sepeate auth network that servers can use, write a plugin for it |
| 21:35.56 | Patlabor221 | then it's server based not client based |
| 21:36.01 | Patlabor221 | that'll work in the current protocoll |
| 21:36.09 | Patlabor221 | no client config for mods needed |
| 21:36.21 | DTRemenak | local auth is fine server-side. proper third-party auth has to be done client side...ideally, servers shouldn't get passwords. |
| 21:36.34 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 21:36.45 | Patlabor221 | goes back to wiring a 3d printer |
| 21:36.50 | Patlabor221 | it's SO purdy |
| 21:36.53 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 21:37.02 | DTRemenak | wondered if you were going to do that :) |
| 21:37.03 | Patlabor221 | it went together super easy |
| 21:37.21 | Patlabor221 | I won't print anything on it till monday so we can calibrate it |
| 21:37.32 | DTRemenak | yeah, that's what I figured. properly-fitting metal pieces are not hard to assemble :) |
| 21:37.44 | Patlabor221 | it's a clean design too |
| 21:38.03 | Patlabor221 | I think we should set it up in the main conf room so people can see how it works |
| 21:38.16 | Patlabor221 | and they can get an explaination of what our new overlords do |
| 21:38.34 | Patlabor221 | actualy I need to eat |
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| 21:49.25 | thrakt | Thanks all for the discussion. Interesting things to ponder. |
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